{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.12,"endTime":3.78,"body":"This episode was made possible"},{"startTime":0.12,"endTime":3.78,"body":"by our incredible donors."},{"startTime":3.96,"endTime":8.07,"body":"Their faithful support allows us to"},{"startTime":3.96,"endTime":8.07,"body":"continue the work of amplifying the"},{"startTime":8.07,"endTime":10.5,"body":"voices of religious abuse survivors."},{"startTime":10.59,"endTime":15.48,"body":"We committed early on never to monetize"},{"startTime":10.59,"endTime":15.48,"body":"any of the stories, so we rely solely"},{"startTime":15.48,"endTime":17.31,"body":"on donations from people like you."},{"startTime":17.64,"endTime":21.6,"body":"If you value the work and are able to"},{"startTime":17.64,"endTime":21.6,"body":"contribute, you can become a monthly"},{"startTime":21.6,"endTime":23.73,"body":"donor at the link in our show notes."},{"startTime":23.97,"endTime":27.03,"body":"Another way to support bodies"},{"startTime":23.97,"endTime":27.03,"body":"behind the bus is by following"},{"startTime":27.24,"endTime":30.0,"body":"rating and reviewing the podcast."},{"startTime":30.12,"endTime":33.93,"body":"It only takes a moment, but has"},{"startTime":30.12,"endTime":33.93,"body":"a tremendous impact on our reach."},{"startTime":34.17,"endTime":36.84,"body":"Thank you for daring to listen"},{"startTime":41.82,"endTime":42.12,"body":"today."},{"startTime":42.12,"endTime":43.92,"body":"We welcome Joyce to the podcast."},{"startTime":43.98,"endTime":47.25,"body":"She will be sharing her story"},{"startTime":43.98,"endTime":47.25,"body":"about her time at A PCA church in"},{"startTime":47.25,"endTime":51.33,"body":"Florida, as well as her personal"},{"startTime":47.25,"endTime":51.33,"body":"journey through marriage and faith."},{"startTime":52.11,"endTime":54.84,"body":"We're so thankful for Joyce"},{"startTime":52.11,"endTime":54.84,"body":"and her courage to speak out."},{"startTime":55.62,"endTime":59.879,"body":"Be sure to stay tuned until the end"},{"startTime":55.62,"endTime":59.879,"body":"of the episode 'cause we will be"},{"startTime":59.879,"endTime":62.309,"body":"sharing an update on Joyce's story."},{"startTime":69.24,"endTime":72.03,"body":"I am all about blessed subtraction there."},{"startTime":72.84,"endTime":78.3,"body":"There is a pile of dead bodies"},{"startTime":72.84,"endTime":78.3,"body":"behind the Mar Hill bus and by"},{"startTime":78.3,"endTime":79.679,"body":"God's grace it'll be a mountain."},{"startTime":79.77,"endTime":83.94,"body":"By the time we're done, you either get on"},{"startTime":79.77,"endTime":83.94,"body":"the bus or you get run over by the bus."},{"startTime":84.39,"endTime":86.789,"body":"Those are the options, but"},{"startTime":84.39,"endTime":86.789,"body":"the bus ain't gonna stop."},{"startTime":89.729,"endTime":93.33,"body":"You either get on the bus so"},{"startTime":89.729,"endTime":93.33,"body":"you get run over by the bus."},{"startTime":95.61,"endTime":96.33,"body":"Those are the options."},{"startTime":99.3,"endTime":99.78,"body":"Put the bus."},{"startTime":101.925,"endTime":102.915,"body":"All right everybody."},{"startTime":102.915,"endTime":105.465,"body":"Welcome back to The Bodies"},{"startTime":102.915,"endTime":105.465,"body":"Behind the Bus podcast."},{"startTime":105.465,"endTime":109.905,"body":"We have another storyteller with us here"},{"startTime":105.465,"endTime":109.905,"body":"today we have Joyce Today Joyce is going"},{"startTime":109.905,"endTime":114.795,"body":"to be talking about her experiences"},{"startTime":109.905,"endTime":114.795,"body":"involved with a PCA Church in Florida."},{"startTime":115.275,"endTime":118.185,"body":"Joyce, it is an honor to have"},{"startTime":115.275,"endTime":118.185,"body":"you on the podcast today."},{"startTime":118.335,"endTime":119.415,"body":"Thanks for having me."},{"startTime":119.685,"endTime":121.005,"body":"Well, let's jump right in."},{"startTime":121.005,"endTime":127.215,"body":"There's a lot to talk about, and I"},{"startTime":121.005,"endTime":127.215,"body":"wanna start, if we can specifically,"},{"startTime":127.215,"endTime":131.025,"body":"you know, you did attend this church"},{"startTime":127.215,"endTime":131.025,"body":"for a while, so how long were you there"},{"startTime":131.295,"endTime":135.825,"body":"and how would you describe the church,"},{"startTime":131.295,"endTime":135.825,"body":"the feel of it, the culture, how did"},{"startTime":135.825,"endTime":137.205,"body":"you get involved, things like that."},{"startTime":137.715,"endTime":138.465,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":138.525,"endTime":143.775,"body":"I had been there at the time, around"},{"startTime":138.525,"endTime":143.775,"body":"10 years when all this happened."},{"startTime":144.165,"endTime":145.935,"body":"We started there, I think it was like."},{"startTime":146.2,"endTime":152.35,"body":"20 11, 20 12, my son, who is severely"},{"startTime":146.2,"endTime":152.35,"body":"autistic, we were looking to come"},{"startTime":152.35,"endTime":155.62,"body":"to a new church and that's always"},{"startTime":152.35,"endTime":155.62,"body":"like a complicated thing for us."},{"startTime":155.62,"endTime":160.36,"body":"And so I had emailed ahead to the church"},{"startTime":155.62,"endTime":160.36,"body":"and said, you know, hey, we're coming on"},{"startTime":160.36,"endTime":163.15,"body":"Sunday, but I have this child with autism."},{"startTime":163.15,"endTime":167.995,"body":"And I got a call back almost right"},{"startTime":163.15,"endTime":167.995,"body":"away saying, you know, no matter what,"},{"startTime":168.015,"endTime":172.18,"body":"if we have to pull a volunteer just"},{"startTime":168.015,"endTime":172.18,"body":"for your child, you'll have coverage."},{"startTime":172.66,"endTime":175.99,"body":"And so that was kind of our"},{"startTime":172.66,"endTime":175.99,"body":"first outreach to this church."},{"startTime":176.02,"endTime":182.11,"body":"And it was so just beautiful and"},{"startTime":176.02,"endTime":182.11,"body":"affirming after we had had such, you"},{"startTime":182.11,"endTime":186.07,"body":"know, difficulties in the past with"},{"startTime":182.11,"endTime":186.07,"body":"accommodating his special needs."},{"startTime":186.4,"endTime":191.17,"body":"And that was at first the, you"},{"startTime":186.4,"endTime":191.17,"body":"know, the atmosphere of the church."},{"startTime":191.17,"endTime":195.82,"body":"They were extremely welcoming"},{"startTime":191.17,"endTime":195.82,"body":"and extremely, you know,"},{"startTime":195.82,"endTime":197.65,"body":"caring towards our needs."},{"startTime":197.74,"endTime":200.44,"body":"Within just a couple of weeks"},{"startTime":197.74,"endTime":200.44,"body":"of being there, they were"},{"startTime":200.44,"endTime":203.11,"body":"asking questions about our son."},{"startTime":203.625,"endTime":206.265,"body":"They ended up paying our"},{"startTime":203.625,"endTime":206.265,"body":"deductible the following year."},{"startTime":206.265,"endTime":212.415,"body":"I mean, it was really incredible things"},{"startTime":206.265,"endTime":212.415,"body":"and I was just like, wow, this, this is"},{"startTime":212.415,"endTime":215.234,"body":"the church the way it's supposed to be."},{"startTime":215.234,"endTime":217.125,"body":"And, and I loved them."},{"startTime":217.125,"endTime":220.334,"body":"I, I loved them in a way that"},{"startTime":217.125,"endTime":220.334,"body":"I've never loved a church."},{"startTime":220.929,"endTime":224.385,"body":"How, how involved, like what,"},{"startTime":220.929,"endTime":224.385,"body":"what else did you do there?"},{"startTime":224.385,"endTime":225.285,"body":"Were you involved?"},{"startTime":225.285,"endTime":225.915,"body":"Were you on staff?"},{"startTime":225.945,"endTime":226.725,"body":"You aren't on staff."},{"startTime":226.725,"endTime":228.195,"body":"I know, but I know you volunteered."},{"startTime":228.195,"endTime":228.255,"body":"No."},{"startTime":228.255,"endTime":230.144,"body":"So walk us through your"},{"startTime":228.255,"endTime":230.144,"body":"involvement with this church."},{"startTime":230.144,"endTime":231.435,"body":"'cause you were there a long time."},{"startTime":231.959,"endTime":236.459,"body":"Yeah, so when we first got there,"},{"startTime":231.959,"endTime":236.459,"body":"one of the things that we found out"},{"startTime":236.459,"endTime":240.69,"body":"was a need right away was they needed"},{"startTime":236.459,"endTime":240.69,"body":"homes to hold their small groups in."},{"startTime":240.78,"endTime":243.57,"body":"'cause they even had people who were"},{"startTime":240.78,"endTime":243.57,"body":"willing to be leaders but they didn't"},{"startTime":243.57,"endTime":244.89,"body":"feel like they had a place to meet."},{"startTime":245.64,"endTime":250.17,"body":"So, really quickly I volunteered"},{"startTime":245.64,"endTime":250.17,"body":"our home as an option for them to"},{"startTime":250.17,"endTime":251.91,"body":"have their small group meetings."},{"startTime":251.91,"endTime":255.51,"body":"And that was kind of our first,"},{"startTime":251.91,"endTime":255.51,"body":"you know, volunteer role."},{"startTime":255.989,"endTime":260.969,"body":"From there, it took about six months for"},{"startTime":255.989,"endTime":260.969,"body":"us to go through membership and then at"},{"startTime":260.969,"endTime":265.11,"body":"the end of that six months, I right away"},{"startTime":260.969,"endTime":265.11,"body":"joined the worship team and I became"},{"startTime":265.11,"endTime":267.419,"body":"very visible through the worship team."},{"startTime":267.45,"endTime":271.68,"body":"'cause there was a long stretch"},{"startTime":267.45,"endTime":271.68,"body":"of time, years that I was on"},{"startTime":271.68,"endTime":273.419,"body":"the team almost every week."},{"startTime":273.78,"endTime":274.8,"body":"It felt natural."},{"startTime":274.8,"endTime":276.87,"body":"The church had given so much to us."},{"startTime":277.075,"endTime":279.715,"body":"That I was really anxious"},{"startTime":277.075,"endTime":279.715,"body":"to give back to them."},{"startTime":280.255,"endTime":285.354,"body":"They did a foster care outreach"},{"startTime":280.255,"endTime":285.354,"body":"back in, I think it was like 20"},{"startTime":285.354,"endTime":291.055,"body":"14, 20 15, and we signed up to be"},{"startTime":285.354,"endTime":291.055,"body":"foster parents to support that."},{"startTime":291.175,"endTime":296.065,"body":"And we, and our, our youngest son"},{"startTime":291.175,"endTime":296.065,"body":"was adopted through foster care."},{"startTime":296.365,"endTime":300.685,"body":"And then in addition to that, I,"},{"startTime":296.365,"endTime":300.685,"body":"you know, as Covid was approaching"},{"startTime":301.015,"endTime":305.125,"body":"my son with autism was starting to"},{"startTime":301.015,"endTime":305.125,"body":"age out of childcare in the church."},{"startTime":305.125,"endTime":308.905,"body":"And so I was in the process of"},{"startTime":305.125,"endTime":308.905,"body":"starting to scope out locations"},{"startTime":308.905,"endTime":310.405,"body":"to do a special needs ministry."},{"startTime":310.405,"endTime":315.474,"body":"So I was a really involved member"},{"startTime":310.405,"endTime":315.474,"body":"and then Covid happened and"},{"startTime":315.474,"endTime":317.695,"body":"then everything else felt pieces"},{"startTime":317.724,"endTime":318.534,"body":"real quick."},{"startTime":318.594,"endTime":323.935,"body":"First off, kudos to the church"},{"startTime":318.594,"endTime":323.935,"body":"for doing a lot of good work"},{"startTime":323.935,"endTime":325.794,"body":"right there and good things."},{"startTime":326.335,"endTime":326.965,"body":"I am."},{"startTime":327.495,"endTime":330.585,"body":"I don't wanna like skip over that because"},{"startTime":327.495,"endTime":330.585,"body":"it does sound like you had a really lovely"},{"startTime":330.585,"endTime":335.535,"body":"experience in the beginning and I think"},{"startTime":330.585,"endTime":335.535,"body":"when we tell these stories, something that"},{"startTime":335.535,"endTime":339.765,"body":"we all have had to get good at and every"},{"startTime":335.535,"endTime":339.765,"body":"storyteller has had to get good at is like"},{"startTime":339.765,"endTime":344.235,"body":"holding multiple things at once where it's"},{"startTime":339.765,"endTime":344.235,"body":"like I can look back and see the beauty"},{"startTime":344.235,"endTime":350.265,"body":"of this and like have fond memories, but"},{"startTime":344.235,"endTime":350.265,"body":"also realize that there's other stuff"},{"startTime":350.265,"endTime":353.025,"body":"there now and that like, it's hard."},{"startTime":353.025,"endTime":354.345,"body":"You have to hold multiple things."},{"startTime":354.345,"endTime":358.425,"body":"So I think it's helpful to kind of like"},{"startTime":354.345,"endTime":358.425,"body":"point that out because I think so many"},{"startTime":358.425,"endTime":363.405,"body":"of us like go through these situations"},{"startTime":358.425,"endTime":363.405,"body":"and like I know even in like Jay and"},{"startTime":363.405,"endTime":366.825,"body":"i's own story, like we look back at"},{"startTime":363.405,"endTime":366.825,"body":"our church and we're like, there was"},{"startTime":366.825,"endTime":372.225,"body":"so, like, there was this beautiful"},{"startTime":366.825,"endTime":372.225,"body":"time that was like something we can't"},{"startTime":372.225,"endTime":378.105,"body":"replicate and that we're still thankful"},{"startTime":372.225,"endTime":378.105,"body":"for and this whole sucky thing happened."},{"startTime":378.105,"endTime":379.155,"body":"So yeah."},{"startTime":379.455,"endTime":383.775,"body":"And that's, that is my story because"},{"startTime":379.455,"endTime":383.775,"body":"I, I think part of what hurt so"},{"startTime":383.775,"endTime":386.265,"body":"much when things fell to pieces."},{"startTime":386.825,"endTime":392.735,"body":"Was because there was this incredible"},{"startTime":386.825,"endTime":392.735,"body":"feeling of family that existed mm-hmm."},{"startTime":392.765,"endTime":397.265,"body":"Before, and if that hadn't, if,"},{"startTime":392.765,"endTime":397.265,"body":"if I hadn't been so attached to"},{"startTime":397.265,"endTime":398.795,"body":"my church, the traumatic mm-hmm."},{"startTime":398.825,"endTime":401.735,"body":"The trauma of losing them"},{"startTime":398.825,"endTime":401.735,"body":"wouldn't have been so great."},{"startTime":402.485,"endTime":403.595,"body":"Thank you for voicing that."},{"startTime":403.715,"endTime":407.585,"body":"I think that that is a very common"},{"startTime":403.715,"endTime":407.585,"body":"experience for storytellers,"},{"startTime":407.585,"endTime":410.075,"body":"but storyteller, like, we"},{"startTime":407.585,"endTime":410.075,"body":"don't often highlight that"},{"startTime":410.105,"endTime":411.155,"body":"in the beginning of stories."},{"startTime":411.155,"endTime":414.725,"body":"So I think that was really, really"},{"startTime":411.155,"endTime":414.725,"body":"helpful for our listeners to hear."},{"startTime":414.725,"endTime":418.055,"body":"Like, it isn't, our storytellers"},{"startTime":414.725,"endTime":418.055,"body":"aren't just a bunch of people"},{"startTime":418.055,"endTime":422.945,"body":"who are like anti, they're like"},{"startTime":418.055,"endTime":422.945,"body":"the most bought in, most like."},{"startTime":423.825,"endTime":427.455,"body":"Loyal in it, we will serve, we will host."},{"startTime":427.455,"endTime":428.955,"body":"So thank you for sharing that."},{"startTime":429.255,"endTime":429.405,"body":"Thanks."},{"startTime":429.405,"endTime":434.805,"body":"I do wanna highlight PCA, like"},{"startTime":429.405,"endTime":434.805,"body":"what is their theological stance on"},{"startTime":435.345,"endTime":438.525,"body":"women and like when you say you're"},{"startTime":435.345,"endTime":438.525,"body":"leading worship or on the worship"},{"startTime":438.525,"endTime":440.025,"body":"team every week, are you leading?"},{"startTime":440.025,"endTime":441.885,"body":"Like, what does that look like?"},{"startTime":442.095,"endTime":447.825,"body":"Yeah, so within the PCA, women are"},{"startTime":442.095,"endTime":447.825,"body":"not allowed to be elders or deacons."},{"startTime":448.065,"endTime":453.525,"body":"So I could not be a pastor or I couldn't"},{"startTime":448.065,"endTime":453.525,"body":"be a deacon, but I could not be the"},{"startTime":453.525,"endTime":455.625,"body":"worship pastor or something like that."},{"startTime":455.625,"endTime":459.855,"body":"But we do have women lead"},{"startTime":455.625,"endTime":459.855,"body":"worship from time to time."},{"startTime":459.885,"endTime":465.225,"body":"But our, our main worship pastor who's"},{"startTime":459.885,"endTime":465.225,"body":"in charge of everybody else, is a male."},{"startTime":465.675,"endTime":466.125,"body":"Awesome."},{"startTime":466.125,"endTime":466.455,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":466.455,"endTime":467.715,"body":"That's super helpful."},{"startTime":467.715,"endTime":472.185,"body":"Just as we move through your story, I"},{"startTime":467.715,"endTime":472.185,"body":"think now we kind of wanna shift into."},{"startTime":473.715,"endTime":478.575,"body":"What was going on in your"},{"startTime":473.715,"endTime":478.575,"body":"home during this season?"},{"startTime":478.635,"endTime":482.955,"body":"And maybe walk us through a"},{"startTime":478.635,"endTime":482.955,"body":"little bit of how that correlates"},{"startTime":482.955,"endTime":483.945,"body":"with your church story."},{"startTime":484.455,"endTime":485.175,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":485.265,"endTime":492.735,"body":"So I will say pretty early in my marriage,"},{"startTime":485.265,"endTime":492.735,"body":"there were things that, that bothered me."},{"startTime":492.795,"endTime":497.475,"body":"But I think as a woman, I felt like"},{"startTime":492.795,"endTime":497.475,"body":"these were normal marriage problems."},{"startTime":497.505,"endTime":497.985,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":498.045,"endTime":501.315,"body":"'cause you know, who hasn't heard"},{"startTime":498.045,"endTime":501.315,"body":"of a wife complaining that her"},{"startTime":501.315,"endTime":505.425,"body":"husband doesn't take out the trash"},{"startTime":501.315,"endTime":505.425,"body":"or, you know, things like that."},{"startTime":506.055,"endTime":509.985,"body":"But what ended up happening"},{"startTime":506.055,"endTime":509.985,"body":"for me, it was if I were to"},{"startTime":510.015,"endTime":512.325,"body":"ask my husband to do something."},{"startTime":513.06,"endTime":518.01,"body":"There would probably be maybe 50%"},{"startTime":513.06,"endTime":518.01,"body":"chance that it wouldn't get done."},{"startTime":518.04,"endTime":520.77,"body":"It was, it was very hit or miss."},{"startTime":521.31,"endTime":526.23,"body":"And so to the point that it would"},{"startTime":521.31,"endTime":526.23,"body":"cause me a lot of anxiety to have"},{"startTime":526.23,"endTime":527.94,"body":"to follow up with him all the time."},{"startTime":527.94,"endTime":530.31,"body":"Did you, did you know, oh,"},{"startTime":527.94,"endTime":530.31,"body":"I asked you to do this."},{"startTime":530.31,"endTime":531.06,"body":"Did you do it?"},{"startTime":531.48,"endTime":534.15,"body":"And then a lot of times"},{"startTime":531.48,"endTime":534.15,"body":"the answer would be no."},{"startTime":534.15,"endTime":537.57,"body":"So then I had to deal with the"},{"startTime":534.15,"endTime":537.57,"body":"fallout of him not having done it."},{"startTime":538.2,"endTime":540.24,"body":"And I, it sounds very simple."},{"startTime":540.39,"endTime":543.75,"body":"It sounds like such a normal"},{"startTime":540.39,"endTime":543.75,"body":"situation in a marriage, but"},{"startTime":543.75,"endTime":546.54,"body":"that was, that was my reality."},{"startTime":546.69,"endTime":549.69,"body":"Like 24 hours a day, seven days a week."},{"startTime":549.78,"endTime":552.72,"body":"And so what started happening"},{"startTime":549.78,"endTime":552.72,"body":"is I didn't like that."},{"startTime":552.72,"endTime":557.88,"body":"I was feeling resentful in my"},{"startTime":552.72,"endTime":557.88,"body":"heart towards my husband because"},{"startTime":557.88,"endTime":560.04,"body":"he was not following through."},{"startTime":560.46,"endTime":563.37,"body":"And so I thought, well, I"},{"startTime":560.46,"endTime":563.37,"body":"can tamper my resentment."},{"startTime":563.745,"endTime":566.715,"body":"By just not asking him to begin with."},{"startTime":567.345,"endTime":572.055,"body":"So rather than relying on him, I just"},{"startTime":567.345,"endTime":572.055,"body":"more and more started taking onto"},{"startTime":572.055,"endTime":578.564,"body":"myself so that I wouldn't cause myself"},{"startTime":572.055,"endTime":578.564,"body":"to feel feelings of resentment if I"},{"startTime":578.564,"endTime":580.395,"body":"would ask him and he wouldn't do it."},{"startTime":581.145,"endTime":583.245,"body":"And it was, it was just this."},{"startTime":583.694,"endTime":588.314,"body":"I think what I realize now is"},{"startTime":583.694,"endTime":588.314,"body":"that the difference is degree."},{"startTime":588.765,"endTime":594.465,"body":"It's normal to have a little bit of that"},{"startTime":588.765,"endTime":594.465,"body":"in a marriage, but this was ev the every"},{"startTime":594.465,"endTime":599.895,"body":"day, every request you would not be able"},{"startTime":594.465,"endTime":599.895,"body":"to count on it being followed through."},{"startTime":600.525,"endTime":606.915,"body":"And, and so the way that affected me was"},{"startTime":600.525,"endTime":606.915,"body":"I just lost all interest in, in intimacy."},{"startTime":607.185,"endTime":612.675,"body":"But I, I had been, you know, raised"},{"startTime":607.185,"endTime":612.675,"body":"on, you know, all these Christian"},{"startTime":612.675,"endTime":617.025,"body":"marriage books that say that you"},{"startTime":612.675,"endTime":617.025,"body":"have to give your husband sex no"},{"startTime":617.025,"endTime":619.845,"body":"matter what, that he, he needs it."},{"startTime":620.34,"endTime":622.62,"body":"In a way you can never understand."},{"startTime":622.86,"endTime":629.64,"body":"Even though I didn't desire him at"},{"startTime":622.86,"endTime":629.64,"body":"all, I felt like I had to go along"},{"startTime":629.64,"endTime":632.4,"body":"with it if he would initiate sex."},{"startTime":632.61,"endTime":638.58,"body":"So just with this lack of agency,"},{"startTime":632.61,"endTime":638.58,"body":"that was what would happen."},{"startTime":639.03,"endTime":641.01,"body":"And at first it wasn't."},{"startTime":641.52,"endTime":644.64,"body":"I would, I would say I didn't"},{"startTime":641.52,"endTime":644.64,"body":"enjoy sex, but it wa it didn't"},{"startTime":644.64,"endTime":646.68,"body":"feel traumatizing in the beginning."},{"startTime":647.61,"endTime":651.69,"body":"It felt like I was just, you know,"},{"startTime":647.61,"endTime":651.69,"body":"doing him a favor, you know, love"},{"startTime":651.69,"endTime":653.43,"body":"loving my husband, that kind of thing."},{"startTime":654.15,"endTime":660.75,"body":"But as this waned into years, it,"},{"startTime":654.15,"endTime":660.75,"body":"it felt more and more violating and"},{"startTime":661.14,"endTime":666.21,"body":"started to get to the point where I"},{"startTime":661.14,"endTime":666.21,"body":"didn't even want my husband to touch me."},{"startTime":666.72,"endTime":671.79,"body":"'cause, you know, just being touched,"},{"startTime":666.72,"endTime":671.79,"body":"was it, it felt like a violation too."},{"startTime":672.6,"endTime":678.09,"body":"And that's where, you know, and, and he"},{"startTime":672.6,"endTime":678.09,"body":"knew this, I had told him once I said."},{"startTime":679.05,"endTime":685.86,"body":"You know that I, I, you know, I"},{"startTime":679.05,"endTime":685.86,"body":"know I'm not allowed to deny you."},{"startTime":685.86,"endTime":690.3,"body":"I said something like that to"},{"startTime":685.86,"endTime":690.3,"body":"him and he didn't disagree."},{"startTime":691.2,"endTime":692.58,"body":"You know, I always go back to that."},{"startTime":692.58,"endTime":697.02,"body":"Like, he didn't, he didn't say"},{"startTime":692.58,"endTime":697.02,"body":"to me like, oh, I never want you"},{"startTime":697.02,"endTime":698.58,"body":"to do that if you don't want to."},{"startTime":699.0,"endTime":702.3,"body":"You know, he, he just kind of, yeah."},{"startTime":703.29,"endTime":703.77,"body":"It is your"},{"startTime":703.77,"endTime":704.76,"body":"responsibility."},{"startTime":705.03,"endTime":706.56,"body":"So what did that look like?"},{"startTime":706.56,"endTime":708.39,"body":"First off, I'm so sorry."},{"startTime":708.54,"endTime":710.31,"body":"That's super heavy."},{"startTime":710.49,"endTime":717.42,"body":"Heavy and unfortunately I think it's, I"},{"startTime":710.49,"endTime":717.42,"body":"mean, we have Sheila Greg War on often."},{"startTime":717.42,"endTime":718.05,"body":"She's a name."},{"startTime":718.11,"endTime":722.85,"body":"Our listeners will know, like this"},{"startTime":718.11,"endTime":722.85,"body":"is a common occurrence in these."},{"startTime":723.375,"endTime":725.324,"body":"Hyper conservative spaces."},{"startTime":725.324,"endTime":729.585,"body":"I think it's probably a common occurrence"},{"startTime":725.324,"endTime":729.585,"body":"in a lot of spaces that aren't even"},{"startTime":729.585,"endTime":735.855,"body":"conservative just with messaging in"},{"startTime":729.585,"endTime":735.855,"body":"general culture, but then like 10 x that"},{"startTime":736.005,"endTime":741.645,"body":"in these spaces where women are made"},{"startTime":736.005,"endTime":741.645,"body":"to feel like our biggest contribution"},{"startTime":741.645,"endTime":747.375,"body":"to the world is fulfilling the desires"},{"startTime":741.645,"endTime":747.375,"body":"of men, the sexual desires of men."},{"startTime":747.495,"endTime":753.885,"body":"But I can't imagine like, does it come"},{"startTime":747.495,"endTime":753.885,"body":"to a point where you can't anymore?"},{"startTime":753.944,"endTime":757.574,"body":"Like what do you guys"},{"startTime":753.944,"endTime":757.574,"body":"end up in counseling?"},{"startTime":757.574,"endTime":759.405,"body":"Like how, where do you go with this?"},{"startTime":759.645,"endTime":760.095,"body":"It got"},{"startTime":760.095,"endTime":765.045,"body":"to the point where it was"},{"startTime":760.095,"endTime":765.045,"body":"something like just it, it was."},{"startTime":765.84,"endTime":769.98,"body":"Ruining me, and I can't, I can't,"},{"startTime":765.84,"endTime":769.98,"body":"I can't say any any other way."},{"startTime":770.28,"endTime":772.05,"body":"And I didn't even have a word for it."},{"startTime":772.26,"endTime":778.14,"body":"I just knew that I just, I just knew"},{"startTime":772.26,"endTime":778.14,"body":"that it was the worst part of my week."},{"startTime":778.41,"endTime":784.08,"body":"So I, I finally went to my husband,"},{"startTime":778.41,"endTime":784.08,"body":"this was about maybe four to six years"},{"startTime":784.08,"endTime":786.75,"body":"before I actually pursued divorce."},{"startTime":787.41,"endTime":791.73,"body":"And I asked him if he'd go to"},{"startTime":787.41,"endTime":791.73,"body":"counseling, and, and he told me, you"},{"startTime":791.73,"endTime":796.2,"body":"know, he didn't wanna do that because"},{"startTime":791.73,"endTime":796.2,"body":"the counselors always favor the women"},{"startTime":796.26,"endTime":800.34,"body":"and that they tell the women what they"},{"startTime":796.26,"endTime":800.34,"body":"wanna hear, and they tell the men all"},{"startTime":800.34,"endTime":801.78,"body":"the things they need to do differently."},{"startTime":802.44,"endTime":807.21,"body":"And so he said, since, you know,"},{"startTime":802.44,"endTime":807.21,"body":"counselors are biased against"},{"startTime":807.21,"endTime":809.4,"body":"men, that he didn't wanna go."},{"startTime":809.46,"endTime":811.02,"body":"And so I said, well, I wanna go."},{"startTime":811.86,"endTime":815.22,"body":"And so I was like, I'm"},{"startTime":811.86,"endTime":815.22,"body":"gonna, I'm gonna go alone."},{"startTime":815.52,"endTime":819.54,"body":"And, and that was kind of what"},{"startTime":815.52,"endTime":819.54,"body":"I did from that point on, was I"},{"startTime":819.57,"endTime":821.67,"body":"was, I saw myself as the problem."},{"startTime":821.67,"endTime":822.96,"body":"I never once."},{"startTime":823.92,"endTime":827.339,"body":"To, you know, I never, once I knew"},{"startTime":823.92,"endTime":827.339,"body":"that my husband was doing things"},{"startTime":827.339,"endTime":832.5,"body":"that he shouldn't, but I never"},{"startTime":827.339,"endTime":832.5,"body":"once saw that as being a reason"},{"startTime":832.5,"endTime":835.079,"body":"for me to do something I shouldn't."},{"startTime":835.77,"endTime":839.28,"body":"So I felt like, you know,"},{"startTime":835.77,"endTime":839.28,"body":"I can't control him."},{"startTime":839.76,"endTime":841.199,"body":"I can only control me."},{"startTime":841.709,"endTime":845.91,"body":"So I'm gonna go to counseling and"},{"startTime":841.709,"endTime":845.91,"body":"I'm going to, you know, do whatever"},{"startTime":845.91,"endTime":848.55,"body":"is in my power to fix the situation."},{"startTime":849.42,"endTime":851.31,"body":"And, and I, that's what happened."},{"startTime":851.31,"endTime":855.66,"body":"I did it for, I went to three separate"},{"startTime":851.31,"endTime":855.66,"body":"marriage counselors over that time."},{"startTime":855.66,"endTime":858.51,"body":"Each time I switched counselors,"},{"startTime":855.66,"endTime":858.51,"body":"I asked him to go again."},{"startTime":859.199,"endTime":860.939,"body":"And he always refused."},{"startTime":860.939,"endTime":861.81,"body":"He never wanted to go."},{"startTime":862.079,"endTime":865.11,"body":"And that's over the four to six years,"},{"startTime":862.079,"endTime":865.11,"body":"you went to three different mm-hmm."},{"startTime":865.349,"endTime":867.51,"body":"And were they, what type"},{"startTime":865.349,"endTime":867.51,"body":"of counselors were they?"},{"startTime":867.87,"endTime":871.439,"body":"The first two were Christian counselors."},{"startTime":871.439,"endTime":875.88,"body":"One was a man, one was a woman, one was a"},{"startTime":871.439,"endTime":875.88,"body":"man because when he said he, you know, was"},{"startTime":875.88,"endTime":879.75,"body":"afraid they were biased against men, then"},{"startTime":875.88,"endTime":879.75,"body":"I thought, well, maybe a male counselor."},{"startTime":880.319,"endTime":882.63,"body":"Then for a period of time he got."},{"startTime":883.38,"endTime":886.32,"body":"He got strange about biblical counselors."},{"startTime":886.77,"endTime":889.98,"body":"And so then I, the third"},{"startTime":886.77,"endTime":889.98,"body":"one was a secular counselor."},{"startTime":890.04,"endTime":891.45,"body":"They were all licensed."},{"startTime":892.02,"endTime":897.36,"body":"And that one was interesting because I"},{"startTime":892.02,"endTime":897.36,"body":"did, they asked me in the beginning if"},{"startTime":897.36,"endTime":901.95,"body":"I was willing to consider divorce on"},{"startTime":897.36,"endTime":901.95,"body":"every, you know, in the intake form."},{"startTime":902.37,"endTime":903.81,"body":"And I wrote no."},{"startTime":904.35,"endTime":908.79,"body":"And the first two counselors never"},{"startTime":904.35,"endTime":908.79,"body":"brought up divorce for that reason."},{"startTime":908.79,"endTime":912.12,"body":"I'm pretty sure, because I had said"},{"startTime":908.79,"endTime":912.12,"body":"I wasn't willing to consider it."},{"startTime":912.57,"endTime":917.97,"body":"The third counselor said, you say here,"},{"startTime":912.57,"endTime":917.97,"body":"you're not willing to consider divorce,"},{"startTime":918.45,"endTime":920.79,"body":"but do you wanna consider divorce?"},{"startTime":920.94,"endTime":927.42,"body":"Kinda like I, I think she started"},{"startTime":920.94,"endTime":927.42,"body":"to see that I was like at a complete"},{"startTime":928.17,"endTime":933.0,"body":"disadvantage in, in terms of like"},{"startTime":928.17,"endTime":933.0,"body":"orchestrating change in my own life."},{"startTime":933.57,"endTime":937.26,"body":"And so she was kind of, I think she"},{"startTime":933.57,"endTime":937.26,"body":"knew that was the healthy thing to"},{"startTime":937.26,"endTime":941.28,"body":"do at that point, but she wasn't"},{"startTime":937.26,"endTime":941.28,"body":"allowed to recommend it unless I."},{"startTime":942.315,"endTime":945.885,"body":"I'm just curious, like what are you"},{"startTime":942.315,"endTime":945.885,"body":"hearing in these counseling sessions?"},{"startTime":945.885,"endTime":948.285,"body":"Like are they affirming you?"},{"startTime":948.285,"endTime":951.825,"body":"Are you leaving them feeling"},{"startTime":948.285,"endTime":951.825,"body":"like you're the problem?"},{"startTime":952.185,"endTime":954.075,"body":"What is the messaging"},{"startTime":952.185,"endTime":954.075,"body":"that you are getting?"},{"startTime":954.075,"endTime":958.935,"body":"Like where are you going internally"},{"startTime":954.075,"endTime":958.935,"body":"as you are sifting through this stuff?"},{"startTime":959.594,"endTime":965.354,"body":"So the first and second counselors"},{"startTime":959.594,"endTime":965.354,"body":"both recommended a sexual sabbatical."},{"startTime":965.385,"endTime":970.395,"body":"They both said, you need to not have"},{"startTime":965.385,"endTime":970.395,"body":"sex for a while while you work on this."},{"startTime":970.425,"endTime":974.115,"body":"And when I went, I with the first"},{"startTime":970.425,"endTime":974.115,"body":"counselor, you gotta realize I'm"},{"startTime":974.115,"endTime":976.484,"body":"going through my own journey here."},{"startTime":976.515,"endTime":980.385,"body":"So the way I'm responding to"},{"startTime":976.515,"endTime":980.385,"body":"it kind of changes over time."},{"startTime":980.385,"endTime":984.704,"body":"So with the first counselor, I"},{"startTime":980.385,"endTime":984.704,"body":"still felt like I could only have"},{"startTime":984.704,"endTime":990.495,"body":"a sabbatical if my husband was also"},{"startTime":984.704,"endTime":990.495,"body":"in agreement that we could do that."},{"startTime":990.495,"endTime":993.314,"body":"And so to his credit, he did agree."},{"startTime":993.314,"endTime":995.954,"body":"'cause I had asked him, you"},{"startTime":993.314,"endTime":995.954,"body":"know, can you give me a year?"},{"startTime":995.984,"endTime":999.104,"body":"That was what I said, can you gimme"},{"startTime":995.984,"endTime":999.104,"body":"a year to work with this counselor?"},{"startTime":999.645,"endTime":1001.444,"body":"And, but what was happening?"},{"startTime":1001.444,"endTime":1006.454,"body":"And he, he did give me, he said he would"},{"startTime":1001.444,"endTime":1006.454,"body":"give me the year, but then there was"},{"startTime":1006.454,"endTime":1008.765,"body":"not really any change in his behavior."},{"startTime":1008.765,"endTime":1012.155,"body":"Like the counselor would give me some"},{"startTime":1008.765,"endTime":1012.155,"body":"homework and say, go home and do this"},{"startTime":1012.155,"endTime":1015.155,"body":"activity with your husband or that and."},{"startTime":1015.905,"endTime":1022.445,"body":"So like one of them might be to write a"},{"startTime":1015.905,"endTime":1022.445,"body":"list of boundaries or to, you know, to"},{"startTime":1022.745,"endTime":1025.415,"body":"give him a list of ways he can support me."},{"startTime":1025.955,"endTime":1029.315,"body":"And he would take it and he"},{"startTime":1025.955,"endTime":1029.315,"body":"would, okay, thanks so much."},{"startTime":1029.315,"endTime":1030.185,"body":"You know, that kind of thing."},{"startTime":1030.185,"endTime":1035.465,"body":"And, but then it would just fall by"},{"startTime":1030.185,"endTime":1035.465,"body":"the wayside and there'd be no action on"},{"startTime":1035.465,"endTime":1037.715,"body":"whatever the counselor had, you know?"},{"startTime":1037.715,"endTime":1041.705,"body":"So it was kind of like, if I"},{"startTime":1037.715,"endTime":1041.705,"body":"couldn't just change it within me,"},{"startTime":1041.795,"endTime":1045.545,"body":"I was completely ineffective at"},{"startTime":1041.795,"endTime":1045.545,"body":"changing it within the relationship"},{"startTime":1045.875,"endTime":1048.695,"body":"because I had no participation."},{"startTime":1049.325,"endTime":1052.655,"body":"So, I mean, it's such a, I mean,"},{"startTime":1049.325,"endTime":1052.655,"body":"it's probably common to have"},{"startTime":1052.655,"endTime":1055.955,"body":"that type of dynamic, but it had"},{"startTime":1052.655,"endTime":1055.955,"body":"to be a very hopeless feeling."},{"startTime":1056.165,"endTime":1059.645,"body":"'cause you're going and doing self"},{"startTime":1056.165,"endTime":1059.645,"body":"work and these counseling sessions"},{"startTime":1059.645,"endTime":1063.545,"body":"and then you're coming home and"},{"startTime":1059.645,"endTime":1063.545,"body":"it's, there's no change at all."},{"startTime":1064.565,"endTime":1070.115,"body":"Yeah, I would generally, after a couple"},{"startTime":1064.565,"endTime":1070.115,"body":"of months, I would start to fall off"},{"startTime":1070.415,"endTime":1074.615,"body":"because it really just felt like I was"},{"startTime":1070.415,"endTime":1074.615,"body":"going in there and being like, yeah."},{"startTime":1075.125,"endTime":1077.315,"body":"Me again, still the same."},{"startTime":1077.345,"endTime":1079.025,"body":"Nothing changed, you know?"},{"startTime":1079.025,"endTime":1082.355,"body":"And that's, and that's kinda"},{"startTime":1079.025,"endTime":1082.355,"body":"how it felt every week."},{"startTime":1082.385,"endTime":1085.505,"body":"And then also I felt the need, like I,"},{"startTime":1082.385,"endTime":1085.505,"body":"I felt like I was going to counseling"},{"startTime":1085.505,"endTime":1088.865,"body":"twice because I had to have the"},{"startTime":1085.505,"endTime":1088.865,"body":"counseling with the counselor and then"},{"startTime":1088.865,"endTime":1093.965,"body":"go home to my husband and regurgitate"},{"startTime":1088.865,"endTime":1093.965,"body":"the session to try to get his feedback."},{"startTime":1093.965,"endTime":1099.275,"body":"So it was emotionally draining to"},{"startTime":1093.965,"endTime":1099.275,"body":"me doubly that he would not go."},{"startTime":1099.98,"endTime":1103.295,"body":"And, and in context, me, you're"},{"startTime":1099.98,"endTime":1103.295,"body":"a foster parent, you have a,"},{"startTime":1103.595,"endTime":1104.705,"body":"you know, special needs child."},{"startTime":1104.705,"endTime":1107.135,"body":"So you have a lot of stressors"},{"startTime":1104.705,"endTime":1107.135,"body":"at the house, I'm assuming."},{"startTime":1107.735,"endTime":1109.145,"body":"And I, yes."},{"startTime":1109.445,"endTime":1111.725,"body":"So there's a lot going on in your life."},{"startTime":1112.175,"endTime":1112.355,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1112.895,"endTime":1117.275,"body":"When they mentioned divorce or"},{"startTime":1112.895,"endTime":1117.275,"body":"when the second counselor mentioned"},{"startTime":1117.275,"endTime":1119.705,"body":"divorce, how did you receive that?"},{"startTime":1119.825,"endTime":1121.415,"body":"Yeah, that was actually the third."},{"startTime":1122.045,"endTime":1125.945,"body":"It's funny, I, um, when she"},{"startTime":1122.045,"endTime":1125.945,"body":"said, you know, you sure you"},{"startTime":1125.945,"endTime":1127.175,"body":"don't wanna consider divorce?"},{"startTime":1127.175,"endTime":1131.735,"body":"I, I have to admit,"},{"startTime":1127.175,"endTime":1131.735,"body":"like my heart was there."},{"startTime":1131.855,"endTime":1134.345,"body":"My heart was like, yes, I want to."},{"startTime":1134.75,"endTime":1142.61,"body":"You know, to consider divorce, but"},{"startTime":1134.75,"endTime":1142.61,"body":"I said no, because I, I felt like"},{"startTime":1143.06,"endTime":1147.29,"body":"God was gonna be mad at me if I"},{"startTime":1143.06,"endTime":1147.29,"body":"even allowed myself to go there."},{"startTime":1147.95,"endTime":1153.8,"body":"I also felt like, you know, I was, if"},{"startTime":1147.95,"endTime":1153.8,"body":"I pursued divorce, it wasn't, it wasn't"},{"startTime":1153.8,"endTime":1157.55,"body":"like I could sin once and then it's done."},{"startTime":1157.91,"endTime":1162.71,"body":"It was gonna be this ongoing"},{"startTime":1157.91,"endTime":1162.71,"body":"period of time where I was in a,"},{"startTime":1162.95,"endTime":1165.35,"body":"you know, quote, state of sin."},{"startTime":1166.1,"endTime":1172.76,"body":"And that scared me because it felt"},{"startTime":1166.1,"endTime":1172.76,"body":"like I knew the church would consider"},{"startTime":1172.76,"endTime":1175.61,"body":"it a, a period of unrepentant sin."},{"startTime":1176.51,"endTime":1182.15,"body":"And in these, you know, the way"},{"startTime":1176.51,"endTime":1182.15,"body":"I was raised, if you are in a"},{"startTime":1182.15,"endTime":1188.51,"body":"state of unrepentant sin, then"},{"startTime":1182.15,"endTime":1188.51,"body":"your very soul is in danger."},{"startTime":1188.69,"endTime":1190.64,"body":"Like I, I felt like."},{"startTime":1191.525,"endTime":1195.995,"body":"If I died before this was resolved,"},{"startTime":1191.525,"endTime":1195.995,"body":"you know, was in a car accident or"},{"startTime":1195.995,"endTime":1200.345,"body":"whatever, I was gonna go to hell because"},{"startTime":1195.995,"endTime":1200.345,"body":"I was in a state of unrepentant sin."},{"startTime":1201.065,"endTime":1206.615,"body":"And so I, I really, I was just"},{"startTime":1201.065,"endTime":1206.615,"body":"emotionally hurting so bad from that."},{"startTime":1206.735,"endTime":1209.435,"body":"I really realized having"},{"startTime":1206.735,"endTime":1209.435,"body":"lost hope in the marriage."},{"startTime":1209.435,"endTime":1213.845,"body":"I had no hope by the time I got to the"},{"startTime":1209.435,"endTime":1213.845,"body":"third counselor, but I did not feel the"},{"startTime":1213.845,"endTime":1216.815,"body":"freedom to say I could consider divorce."},{"startTime":1217.355,"endTime":1221.345,"body":"So during the first two sessions,"},{"startTime":1217.355,"endTime":1221.345,"body":"well, I guess all three, I know"},{"startTime":1221.345,"endTime":1224.045,"body":"the church eventually, or you"},{"startTime":1221.345,"endTime":1224.045,"body":"eventually reached out to the church."},{"startTime":1224.045,"endTime":1224.765,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1224.771,"endTime":1229.805,"body":"But was anyone aware at the church of"},{"startTime":1224.771,"endTime":1229.805,"body":"what was going on in your home before you"},{"startTime":1229.805,"endTime":1231.665,"body":"reached out to the two pastor's wives?"},{"startTime":1232.205,"endTime":1237.065,"body":"Later on, I heard from some"},{"startTime":1232.205,"endTime":1237.065,"body":"people that there were suspicions"},{"startTime":1237.065,"endTime":1239.045,"body":"and I'm not really sure what."},{"startTime":1239.69,"endTime":1244.94,"body":"They were basing that on what they, what"},{"startTime":1239.69,"endTime":1244.94,"body":"dynamic they saw between my husband and I."},{"startTime":1244.94,"endTime":1248.6,"body":"But 'cause, 'cause my husband and"},{"startTime":1244.94,"endTime":1248.6,"body":"I, neither one of us, like we, we"},{"startTime":1248.6,"endTime":1250.49,"body":"weren't at each other's throats."},{"startTime":1250.49,"endTime":1251.78,"body":"We weren't aggressive people."},{"startTime":1251.78,"endTime":1254.96,"body":"We were actually, both of"},{"startTime":1251.78,"endTime":1254.96,"body":"us tried to avoid conflict."},{"startTime":1255.5,"endTime":1255.71,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1255.71,"endTime":1260.149,"body":"So I don't think there was a whole lot of"},{"startTime":1255.71,"endTime":1260.149,"body":"knowledge, but the, I reached out to the"},{"startTime":1260.149,"endTime":1265.49,"body":"pastor's wives right around the same time"},{"startTime":1260.149,"endTime":1265.49,"body":"that I started seeing the third counselor."},{"startTime":1265.49,"endTime":1270.41,"body":"So this would've been"},{"startTime":1265.49,"endTime":1270.41,"body":"in like early 2021 and."},{"startTime":1270.905,"endTime":1276.064,"body":"The first pastor's wife I reached"},{"startTime":1270.905,"endTime":1276.064,"body":"out to, she told me like, I, I"},{"startTime":1276.064,"endTime":1278.705,"body":"really think, you know, I was,"},{"startTime":1276.064,"endTime":1278.705,"body":"and I was crying in her office."},{"startTime":1278.705,"endTime":1282.245,"body":"I was, I was crying, so, you know,"},{"startTime":1278.705,"endTime":1282.245,"body":"so much over what was going on."},{"startTime":1282.245,"endTime":1286.895,"body":"And, and she goes, you know,"},{"startTime":1282.245,"endTime":1286.895,"body":"I really think you just need"},{"startTime":1286.895,"endTime":1288.215,"body":"to have sex with your husband."},{"startTime":1289.145,"endTime":1295.355,"body":"You know, like, kind of like, oh,"},{"startTime":1289.145,"endTime":1295.355,"body":"well, you know, and, but thankfully"},{"startTime":1295.355,"endTime":1300.064,"body":"by this point, by the third counselor,"},{"startTime":1295.355,"endTime":1300.064,"body":"I was kind of like, I just couldn't,"},{"startTime":1300.095,"endTime":1304.685,"body":"like, I, it, I, I wouldn't even say"},{"startTime":1300.095,"endTime":1304.685,"body":"it was like some kind of conviction"},{"startTime":1304.685,"endTime":1306.425,"body":"that I had the right to say no."},{"startTime":1306.425,"endTime":1310.475,"body":"It was just like, I physically"},{"startTime":1306.425,"endTime":1310.475,"body":"could not find the strength in"},{"startTime":1310.475,"endTime":1311.675,"body":"myself to go through with it."},{"startTime":1312.26,"endTime":1312.59,"body":"So,"},{"startTime":1313.07,"endTime":1313.34,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":1313.34,"endTime":1314.27,"body":"I mean, I get that."},{"startTime":1314.27,"endTime":1318.5,"body":"And you at this point, so they,"},{"startTime":1314.27,"endTime":1318.5,"body":"they're giving this advice to you,"},{"startTime":1318.56,"endTime":1322.19,"body":"your, your emotional health starts"},{"startTime":1318.56,"endTime":1322.19,"body":"to, physical health starts to"},{"startTime":1322.19,"endTime":1323.66,"body":"deteriorate at this time as well."},{"startTime":1323.66,"endTime":1324.05,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1324.53,"endTime":1326.36,"body":"Can you walk us through"},{"startTime":1324.53,"endTime":1326.36,"body":"what's going on there?"},{"startTime":1326.72,"endTime":1327.32,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1327.32,"endTime":1332.24,"body":"I had been noticing, well, I got"},{"startTime":1327.32,"endTime":1332.24,"body":"diagnosed with Hashimoto's disease,"},{"startTime":1332.24,"endTime":1336.62,"body":"which is like a autoimmune condition of"},{"startTime":1332.24,"endTime":1336.62,"body":"the thyroid, where your body basically"},{"startTime":1336.62,"endTime":1338.63,"body":"sees your thyroid as a foreign body."},{"startTime":1338.89,"endTime":1339.88,"body":"And it attacks it."},{"startTime":1339.88,"endTime":1345.31,"body":"So I had, I have hypothyroidism from"},{"startTime":1339.88,"endTime":1345.31,"body":"that and I just also started to, I"},{"startTime":1345.31,"endTime":1346.96,"body":"started to develop an eye twitch."},{"startTime":1346.96,"endTime":1349.27,"body":"Lots of anxiety type things."},{"startTime":1349.66,"endTime":1354.58,"body":"I would not be able to maintain sleep"},{"startTime":1349.66,"endTime":1354.58,"body":"at night, so I'd, I might fall asleep."},{"startTime":1354.58,"endTime":1354.94,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1354.94,"endTime":1357.97,"body":"But then I'd wake up two hours later,"},{"startTime":1354.94,"endTime":1357.97,"body":"not be able to go back to sleep."},{"startTime":1358.78,"endTime":1365.11,"body":"I was having multiple migraine days"},{"startTime":1358.78,"endTime":1365.11,"body":"per week, and I think the big turning"},{"startTime":1365.11,"endTime":1370.33,"body":"point for me was I had gone through the"},{"startTime":1365.11,"endTime":1370.33,"body":"Chick-fil-A drive-through, and on my way"},{"startTime":1370.33,"endTime":1376.09,"body":"out of the drive-through, I had a soda"},{"startTime":1370.33,"endTime":1376.09,"body":"that fell into the backseat of the car."},{"startTime":1376.72,"endTime":1382.78,"body":"And I remember at that moment"},{"startTime":1376.72,"endTime":1382.78,"body":"my, I just got tunnel vision and"},{"startTime":1382.96,"endTime":1386.26,"body":"I thought I was gonna pass out"},{"startTime":1382.96,"endTime":1386.26,"body":"and I had to pull over the car."},{"startTime":1386.77,"endTime":1391.03,"body":"And that was kind of my aha moment,"},{"startTime":1386.77,"endTime":1391.03,"body":"that physically that I needed to do"},{"startTime":1391.03,"endTime":1397.6,"body":"something because a big part of the"},{"startTime":1391.03,"endTime":1397.6,"body":"reason I had been staying all this time."},{"startTime":1398.014,"endTime":1404.495,"body":"Was because I was wanting my pa my kids"},{"startTime":1398.014,"endTime":1404.495,"body":"to have two parents, and in this moment,"},{"startTime":1404.495,"endTime":1408.995,"body":"sitting pulled over on the side of the"},{"startTime":1404.495,"endTime":1408.995,"body":"road, almost passing out from a soda"},{"startTime":1408.995,"endTime":1414.395,"body":"falling over in the car, I was like,"},{"startTime":1408.995,"endTime":1414.395,"body":"they might end up with one parent after"},{"startTime":1414.395,"endTime":1417.845,"body":"all if I don't do something about this."},{"startTime":1418.385,"endTime":1419.315,"body":"That's so heavy."},{"startTime":1419.375,"endTime":1420.274,"body":"I'm so sorry."},{"startTime":1420.784,"endTime":1422.014,"body":"There's just so much there."},{"startTime":1422.945,"endTime":1423.935,"body":"There's just so much."},{"startTime":1424.475,"endTime":1428.764,"body":"When, so when you, when you"},{"startTime":1424.475,"endTime":1428.764,"body":"prompted to talk to these pastor's"},{"startTime":1428.764,"endTime":1433.895,"body":"wives, did they, did they offer"},{"startTime":1428.764,"endTime":1433.895,"body":"any other further assistance?"},{"startTime":1433.895,"endTime":1437.075,"body":"Like were they gonna meet with you"},{"startTime":1433.895,"endTime":1437.075,"body":"regularly or did they say, oh, well"},{"startTime":1437.075,"endTime":1438.635,"body":"let's get the pastors involved?"},{"startTime":1438.635,"endTime":1442.655,"body":"Like how did they, how did you, I"},{"startTime":1438.635,"endTime":1442.655,"body":"guess, how did that relationship,"},{"startTime":1442.955,"endTime":1445.625,"body":"what was the progression of that"},{"startTime":1442.955,"endTime":1445.625,"body":"relationship if there is one?"},{"startTime":1446.39,"endTime":1450.83,"body":"That first pastor's wife I spoke with,"},{"startTime":1446.39,"endTime":1450.83,"body":"I only talked to her once, but then"},{"startTime":1450.83,"endTime":1456.68,"body":"there's another, she, she actually"},{"startTime":1450.83,"endTime":1456.68,"body":"recommended me to another and I ended up"},{"startTime":1456.68,"endTime":1458.96,"body":"following up with her over several months."},{"startTime":1458.96,"endTime":1464.24,"body":"I would say it went from about January"},{"startTime":1458.96,"endTime":1464.24,"body":"to maybe like May or June of the"},{"startTime":1464.24,"endTime":1469.37,"body":"year, and she actually started telling"},{"startTime":1464.24,"endTime":1469.37,"body":"me that I shouldn't be withholding"},{"startTime":1469.37,"endTime":1471.74,"body":"sex from my husband out of revenge."},{"startTime":1472.34,"endTime":1476.57,"body":"And I remember thinking like,"},{"startTime":1472.34,"endTime":1476.57,"body":"how in the world do you think I'm"},{"startTime":1476.57,"endTime":1478.91,"body":"withholding because of revenge?"},{"startTime":1478.91,"endTime":1485.99,"body":"Like I literally was, you know, allowing"},{"startTime":1478.91,"endTime":1485.99,"body":"him to use my body for a decade."},{"startTime":1486.47,"endTime":1489.95,"body":"If I, if, you know, if it"},{"startTime":1486.47,"endTime":1489.95,"body":"was about revenge, I would've"},{"startTime":1489.95,"endTime":1491.629,"body":"stopped a long time ago."},{"startTime":1491.629,"endTime":1499.4,"body":"Was it was, I, I just, I never"},{"startTime":1491.629,"endTime":1499.4,"body":"got any kind of sense that I. They"},{"startTime":1499.4,"endTime":1504.02,"body":"were gonna actually take steps to"},{"startTime":1499.4,"endTime":1504.02,"body":"help me get out of the situation."},{"startTime":1504.62,"endTime":1510.5,"body":"It was always just about how I could"},{"startTime":1504.62,"endTime":1510.5,"body":"submit more, accommodate my husband,"},{"startTime":1510.5,"endTime":1512.93,"body":"more so that we could stay married."},{"startTime":1513.62,"endTime":1514.73,"body":"It's just so much there."},{"startTime":1514.73,"endTime":1518.3,"body":"There's so much there and there's"},{"startTime":1514.73,"endTime":1518.3,"body":"so much to comment on, like that,"},{"startTime":1518.9,"endTime":1520.97,"body":"sharing that type of advice with you."},{"startTime":1521.81,"endTime":1526.04,"body":"I mean, when they did, how did you,"},{"startTime":1521.81,"endTime":1526.04,"body":"I mean, looking back in hindsight,"},{"startTime":1526.04,"endTime":1528.889,"body":"you have wording right to name what"},{"startTime":1526.04,"endTime":1528.889,"body":"was happening in your marriage."},{"startTime":1528.889,"endTime":1528.95,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1528.98,"endTime":1532.7,"body":"But how did you receive that at"},{"startTime":1528.98,"endTime":1532.7,"body":"the time when they're saying, you"},{"startTime":1532.7,"endTime":1534.139,"body":"know, don't do this out of revenge."},{"startTime":1534.139,"endTime":1535.82,"body":"Like, what, what's going"},{"startTime":1534.139,"endTime":1535.82,"body":"through your head then?"},{"startTime":1535.82,"endTime":1535.85,"body":"I,"},{"startTime":1536.24,"endTime":1538.04,"body":"I think I just felt trapped."},{"startTime":1538.37,"endTime":1543.47,"body":"Trapped was a word I would've used pretty"},{"startTime":1538.37,"endTime":1543.47,"body":"frequently throughout this process."},{"startTime":1543.68,"endTime":1543.95,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1544.16,"endTime":1549.68,"body":"So in that feeling trapped, how"},{"startTime":1544.16,"endTime":1549.68,"body":"do you break out of being trapped?"},{"startTime":1549.68,"endTime":1551.15,"body":"Can you walk us through?"},{"startTime":1551.15,"endTime":1557.629,"body":"I. You know, when things start to progress"},{"startTime":1551.15,"endTime":1557.629,"body":"out of this situation and specifically"},{"startTime":1557.629,"endTime":1559.52,"body":"what the church's role was in that."},{"startTime":1560.209,"endTime":1560.81,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1560.81,"endTime":1567.439,"body":"Yeah, really the big turning point for"},{"startTime":1560.81,"endTime":1567.439,"body":"me was finding Natalie Hoffman, a friend"},{"startTime":1567.439,"endTime":1575.0,"body":"of mine who you know, is a Christian, but"},{"startTime":1567.439,"endTime":1575.0,"body":"she's, she wasn't as heavily churched as I"},{"startTime":1575.0,"endTime":1578.479,"body":"was, so she was a little more open-minded."},{"startTime":1578.524,"endTime":1583.82,"body":"And so, and since she was my friend, I"},{"startTime":1578.524,"endTime":1583.82,"body":"listened to her because she was my friend."},{"startTime":1583.82,"endTime":1587.959,"body":"And so, so she said, you know,"},{"startTime":1583.82,"endTime":1587.959,"body":"that I needed to listen to"},{"startTime":1588.05,"endTime":1589.879,"body":"Natalie Hoffman's podcast."},{"startTime":1590.51,"endTime":1596.03,"body":"And I remember I was with my kids sitting"},{"startTime":1590.51,"endTime":1596.03,"body":"at this indoor playground, and it was"},{"startTime":1596.03,"endTime":1599.57,"body":"so loud they were having a birthday"},{"startTime":1596.03,"endTime":1599.57,"body":"party next to me, but I had Natalie"},{"startTime":1599.57,"endTime":1602.3,"body":"Hoffman's podcast playing in my ear."},{"startTime":1602.81,"endTime":1604.879,"body":"She had Sheila Gregoire on."},{"startTime":1605.3,"endTime":1612.92,"body":"Her podcast and Sheila Gregor was going"},{"startTime":1605.3,"endTime":1612.92,"body":"through what constituted sexual abuse"},{"startTime":1612.92,"endTime":1619.7,"body":"and rape in marriage, and I found myself"},{"startTime":1612.92,"endTime":1619.7,"body":"relating to the things they were saying."},{"startTime":1619.7,"endTime":1622.52,"body":"I, I found things"},{"startTime":1619.7,"endTime":1622.52,"body":"resonating and ringing true."},{"startTime":1623.36,"endTime":1628.13,"body":"I, you know, joined Natalie's"},{"startTime":1623.36,"endTime":1628.13,"body":"Flying three free group and through"},{"startTime":1628.13,"endTime":1632.57,"body":"that group got connected with"},{"startTime":1628.13,"endTime":1632.57,"body":"a, a woman who was a life coach."},{"startTime":1632.99,"endTime":1635.75,"body":"And she started, I"},{"startTime":1632.99,"endTime":1635.75,"body":"started meeting with her."},{"startTime":1635.75,"endTime":1638.42,"body":"So now I had a one-on-one person."},{"startTime":1638.42,"endTime":1642.32,"body":"It wasn't about saving the marriage"},{"startTime":1638.42,"endTime":1642.32,"body":"anymore, it was just about what"},{"startTime":1642.32,"endTime":1645.53,"body":"I needed for my situation and."},{"startTime":1645.949,"endTime":1651.29,"body":"I was only doing that for"},{"startTime":1645.949,"endTime":1651.29,"body":"about a month when I decided"},{"startTime":1651.29,"endTime":1652.879,"body":"I was gonna ask for divorce."},{"startTime":1653.27,"endTime":1654.74,"body":"It was super quick."},{"startTime":1655.25,"endTime":1658.34,"body":"And you know, one of the things"},{"startTime":1655.25,"endTime":1658.34,"body":"that people tell me is like, oh,"},{"startTime":1658.34,"endTime":1660.59,"body":"you got strong, you got strong."},{"startTime":1660.59,"endTime":1661.58,"body":"And I'm like, no."},{"startTime":1661.58,"endTime":1663.29,"body":"I'm like, you don't get strong like that."},{"startTime":1663.29,"endTime":1665.629,"body":"And a month I was already strong."},{"startTime":1665.629,"endTime":1670.639,"body":"It takes a lot of strength"},{"startTime":1665.629,"endTime":1670.639,"body":"to stay in that situation."},{"startTime":1671.57,"endTime":1676.85,"body":"And I said all that happened was I"},{"startTime":1671.57,"endTime":1676.85,"body":"stopped putting that strength towards"},{"startTime":1676.85,"endTime":1681.47,"body":"saving the marriage and I started"},{"startTime":1676.85,"endTime":1681.47,"body":"putting that strength towards."},{"startTime":1682.7,"endTime":1685.639,"body":"Getting healthy and, and"},{"startTime":1682.7,"endTime":1685.639,"body":"being in a healthy situation"},{"startTime":1686.149,"endTime":1690.56,"body":"was, was this the first time that"},{"startTime":1686.149,"endTime":1690.56,"body":"you began to, like, name things that"},{"startTime":1690.56,"endTime":1692.24,"body":"were happening in your marriage?"},{"startTime":1692.78,"endTime":1696.44,"body":"Yeah, and I'll be honest, I,"},{"startTime":1692.78,"endTime":1696.44,"body":"I was, I still to this day"},{"startTime":1696.44,"endTime":1699.32,"body":"struggle with comfort over terms."},{"startTime":1699.74,"endTime":1704.81,"body":"So generally when I've told"},{"startTime":1699.74,"endTime":1704.81,"body":"people my story in the past is,"},{"startTime":1704.81,"endTime":1710.09,"body":"I, I don't use terms like rape or"},{"startTime":1704.81,"endTime":1710.09,"body":"marital rape or even sexual abuse."},{"startTime":1710.09,"endTime":1714.5,"body":"I just have told people this is"},{"startTime":1710.09,"endTime":1714.5,"body":"what happened, and I let them take"},{"startTime":1714.5,"endTime":1717.5,"body":"the facts and decide for themselves"},{"startTime":1714.5,"endTime":1717.5,"body":"what they want to label it."},{"startTime":1718.01,"endTime":1721.31,"body":"But what I will say is it wasn't Jesus."},{"startTime":1721.85,"endTime":1724.97,"body":"It was not what Jesus, you"},{"startTime":1721.85,"endTime":1724.97,"body":"know, the Bible says that we're"},{"startTime":1724.97,"endTime":1726.08,"body":"supposed to love your neighbor."},{"startTime":1726.08,"endTime":1727.49,"body":"Your wife is still your neighbor."},{"startTime":1727.49,"endTime":1732.169,"body":"Your wife is perhaps the most profound"},{"startTime":1727.49,"endTime":1732.169,"body":"neighbor that you would have, your spouse,"},{"startTime":1732.169,"endTime":1733.43,"body":"you know, or your husband if you're,"},{"startTime":1733.909,"endTime":1737.06,"body":"so you're starting to hear these terms."},{"startTime":1737.6,"endTime":1738.32,"body":"You're starting to."},{"startTime":1739.07,"endTime":1744.59,"body":"Educate yourself honestly about the"},{"startTime":1739.07,"endTime":1744.59,"body":"dynamics that you had been living."},{"startTime":1745.07,"endTime":1746.54,"body":"What do you do with your church?"},{"startTime":1747.14,"endTime":1751.58,"body":"Like I'm, I'm guessing based on the"},{"startTime":1747.14,"endTime":1751.58,"body":"advice you got, that they were not"},{"startTime":1751.58,"endTime":1756.35,"body":"educating themselves on these topics"},{"startTime":1751.58,"endTime":1756.35,"body":"or understanding these dynamics."},{"startTime":1756.41,"endTime":1757.82,"body":"Am I wrong or right?"},{"startTime":1757.82,"endTime":1757.88,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1757.91,"endTime":1759.56,"body":"How, like, how was that experience?"},{"startTime":1759.65,"endTime":1763.97,"body":"And at any point, do the pastors"},{"startTime":1759.65,"endTime":1763.97,"body":"actually get involved or is it always"},{"startTime":1763.97,"endTime":1767.96,"body":"with pastors wives that you're speaking"},{"startTime":1763.97,"endTime":1767.96,"body":"with, which wouldn't also not really"},{"startTime":1767.96,"endTime":1770.15,"body":"be that uncommon in these spaces?"},{"startTime":1770.45,"endTime":1772.52,"body":"Yeah, no, the pastors do get involved."},{"startTime":1772.61,"endTime":1776.06,"body":"What basically ends up happening,"},{"startTime":1772.61,"endTime":1776.06,"body":"I decide, I'm gonna tell my"},{"startTime":1776.06,"endTime":1777.74,"body":"husband that I want a divorce."},{"startTime":1777.74,"endTime":1781.67,"body":"This is February of 2022."},{"startTime":1782.84,"endTime":1788.63,"body":"So I tell him I want the"},{"startTime":1782.84,"endTime":1788.63,"body":"divorce and that conversation."},{"startTime":1789.185,"endTime":1790.895,"body":"Goes horribly wrong."},{"startTime":1790.985,"endTime":1793.955,"body":"He accuses me of having a midlife crisis."},{"startTime":1793.985,"endTime":1797.705,"body":"He says like, oh, I've been talking"},{"startTime":1793.985,"endTime":1797.705,"body":"to all of these therapists, and"},{"startTime":1797.705,"endTime":1800.765,"body":"I finally found one that was"},{"startTime":1797.705,"endTime":1800.765,"body":"telling me what I wanted to hear."},{"startTime":1801.395,"endTime":1804.425,"body":"Basically, it, we, we talk into the night."},{"startTime":1805.055,"endTime":1809.135,"body":"It ends with me kind of in this"},{"startTime":1805.055,"endTime":1809.135,"body":"exasperated, exhausted stage, just"},{"startTime":1809.135,"endTime":1812.105,"body":"saying, please just let me go."},{"startTime":1812.465,"endTime":1817.775,"body":"When I said that, he told me, he leveled"},{"startTime":1812.465,"endTime":1817.775,"body":"his eyes at me and he said, hell no, and"},{"startTime":1817.775,"endTime":1822.845,"body":"if you try to leave, I will go to the"},{"startTime":1817.775,"endTime":1822.845,"body":"children and I will tell them that I love"},{"startTime":1822.845,"endTime":1827.735,"body":"you and I love them, but you're breaking"},{"startTime":1822.845,"endTime":1827.735,"body":"up our family and you're making me leave."},{"startTime":1828.245,"endTime":1831.365,"body":"So again, that was that I'm trapped."},{"startTime":1831.395,"endTime":1835.415,"body":"I don't have a choice because I, I didn't"},{"startTime":1831.395,"endTime":1835.415,"body":"want my children to think ill of me."},{"startTime":1836.135,"endTime":1836.825,"body":"So."},{"startTime":1837.53,"endTime":1843.979,"body":"The next day I went to the church and"},{"startTime":1837.53,"endTime":1843.979,"body":"called the pastor, told him everything"},{"startTime":1844.159,"endTime":1850.25,"body":"in gruesome detail of all that had"},{"startTime":1844.159,"endTime":1850.25,"body":"transpired in the marriage, and then I"},{"startTime":1850.25,"endTime":1855.86,"body":"followed up immediately that same day"},{"startTime":1850.25,"endTime":1855.86,"body":"with an email, putting it all in writing."},{"startTime":1856.31,"endTime":1861.56,"body":"He told me that what was gonna have to"},{"startTime":1856.31,"endTime":1861.56,"body":"happen if I wanted to pursue a divorce"},{"startTime":1861.62,"endTime":1867.949,"body":"was that he would form a commission"},{"startTime":1861.62,"endTime":1867.949,"body":"and that women could be a part of the"},{"startTime":1867.949,"endTime":1875.06,"body":"commission, but that I'd have to go to"},{"startTime":1867.949,"endTime":1875.06,"body":"counseling and that, and I'm guessing"},{"startTime":1875.06,"endTime":1880.399,"body":"Nick would have to go with me and"},{"startTime":1875.06,"endTime":1880.399,"body":"that whatever that commission decided"},{"startTime":1880.699,"endTime":1882.889,"body":"would be, what the church would abide."},{"startTime":1883.669,"endTime":1888.679,"body":"But at this point, you know, I'm"},{"startTime":1883.669,"endTime":1888.679,"body":"still living with him as husband"},{"startTime":1888.679,"endTime":1894.004,"body":"and wife and I. He's very angry"},{"startTime":1888.679,"endTime":1894.004,"body":"at me at this point because I've"},{"startTime":1894.004,"endTime":1899.524,"body":"started to take steps to leave and"},{"startTime":1894.004,"endTime":1899.524,"body":"it's just not a healthy environment."},{"startTime":1900.064,"endTime":1907.084,"body":"And I, I'm worried, what if I go along"},{"startTime":1900.064,"endTime":1907.084,"body":"with the church and instead of telling"},{"startTime":1907.084,"endTime":1911.074,"body":"me that they're gonna give me permission"},{"startTime":1907.084,"endTime":1911.074,"body":"to divorce, they tell me, Nope, you"},{"startTime":1911.074,"endTime":1912.395,"body":"guys need to keep working on it."},{"startTime":1912.61,"endTime":1917.104,"body":"It, it wa I felt like I was in a"},{"startTime":1912.61,"endTime":1917.104,"body":"situation where it was better to beg"},{"startTime":1917.104,"endTime":1919.235,"body":"for forgiveness than ask for permission."},{"startTime":1919.324,"endTime":1923.645,"body":"So I called the pastor back after"},{"startTime":1919.324,"endTime":1923.645,"body":"a couple weeks and I told him, you"},{"startTime":1923.645,"endTime":1927.604,"body":"know, that I was not ne it wasn't"},{"startTime":1923.645,"endTime":1927.604,"body":"necessary to form the commission"},{"startTime":1927.604,"endTime":1931.564,"body":"that I was just gonna, you know, move"},{"startTime":1927.604,"endTime":1931.564,"body":"ahead with trying to get divorced."},{"startTime":1932.074,"endTime":1935.435,"body":"And that at that point, that's"},{"startTime":1932.074,"endTime":1935.435,"body":"when things started to go."},{"startTime":1935.435,"endTime":1935.735,"body":"I know"},{"startTime":1935.735,"endTime":1942.125,"body":"that in the church I grew up in, and I'm"},{"startTime":1935.735,"endTime":1942.125,"body":"curious if this is the same for you, that"},{"startTime":1942.395,"endTime":1950.165,"body":"it was very rare that divorce was allowed"},{"startTime":1942.395,"endTime":1950.165,"body":"and it had to be extreme continued."},{"startTime":1951.14,"endTime":1953.66,"body":"Domestic violence that"},{"startTime":1951.14,"endTime":1953.66,"body":"would allow for that."},{"startTime":1953.69,"endTime":1954.26,"body":"Really."},{"startTime":1954.56,"endTime":1956.84,"body":"Is that kind of what you felt"},{"startTime":1954.56,"endTime":1956.84,"body":"like you were up against?"},{"startTime":1956.84,"endTime":1961.37,"body":"Like you have to prove that there's"},{"startTime":1956.84,"endTime":1961.37,"body":"like, continued abuse or were you"},{"startTime":1961.37,"endTime":1964.07,"body":"like, I don't even feel like I"},{"startTime":1961.37,"endTime":1964.07,"body":"need to prove this to you people?"},{"startTime":1964.31,"endTime":1965.9,"body":"Like, what did you feel?"},{"startTime":1966.5,"endTime":1966.92,"body":"No,"},{"startTime":1966.92,"endTime":1972.17,"body":"I, I actually felt like if I went"},{"startTime":1966.92,"endTime":1972.17,"body":"through the church, I was gonna"},{"startTime":1972.17,"endTime":1973.82,"body":"end up being excommunicated."},{"startTime":1973.82,"endTime":1978.74,"body":"I, I felt that from the beginning"},{"startTime":1973.82,"endTime":1978.74,"body":"there were two grounds that"},{"startTime":1978.98,"endTime":1981.62,"body":"the PCA allows for divorce."},{"startTime":1981.62,"endTime":1986.0,"body":"One is adultery and I believe by"},{"startTime":1981.62,"endTime":1986.0,"body":"adultery they, I don't know if they."},{"startTime":1986.419,"endTime":1991.25,"body":"Articulate it this way, but they"},{"startTime":1986.419,"endTime":1991.25,"body":"mean physical skin to skin, adultery."},{"startTime":1991.25,"endTime":1995.179,"body":"They don't, they would not count"},{"startTime":1991.25,"endTime":1995.179,"body":"porn or anything like that."},{"startTime":1995.689,"endTime":1999.889,"body":"And the other option is what they"},{"startTime":1995.689,"endTime":1999.889,"body":"call abandonment of the marriage"},{"startTime":1999.889,"endTime":2003.07,"body":"covenant, which that can be different."},{"startTime":2003.07,"endTime":2004.81,"body":"Churches interpret it differently."},{"startTime":2004.81,"endTime":2007.899,"body":"Some require it to be"},{"startTime":2004.81,"endTime":2007.899,"body":"physical abandonment."},{"startTime":2007.99,"endTime":2012.82,"body":"Others will, I, I believe Rio would"},{"startTime":2007.99,"endTime":2012.82,"body":"fall in the category of where it"},{"startTime":2012.82,"endTime":2015.85,"body":"could also be emotional abandonment."},{"startTime":2015.85,"endTime":2019.09,"body":"And so if they had granted me"},{"startTime":2015.85,"endTime":2019.09,"body":"a divorce, it would've been"},{"startTime":2019.09,"endTime":2020.949,"body":"on that, on those grounds."},{"startTime":2021.459,"endTime":2026.83,"body":"Do you and your husband ever get"},{"startTime":2021.459,"endTime":2026.83,"body":"pushed into a counseling session"},{"startTime":2026.889,"endTime":2028.959,"body":"or counseling sessions together?"},{"startTime":2028.985,"endTime":2030.82,"body":"Or does that just never happen?"},{"startTime":2030.82,"endTime":2032.32,"body":"Like what does the church do with that?"},{"startTime":2032.32,"endTime":2036.159,"body":"Because normally a church would"},{"startTime":2032.32,"endTime":2036.159,"body":"start there, like, meet with us as"},{"startTime":2036.159,"endTime":2038.05,"body":"pastors as a couple or something."},{"startTime":2038.47,"endTime":2038.98,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":2038.98,"endTime":2041.8,"body":"that's, I'm pretty sure why I ended up."},{"startTime":2042.4,"endTime":2047.17,"body":"Being disciplined by the church because"},{"startTime":2042.4,"endTime":2047.17,"body":"at the point that I had asked for the"},{"startTime":2047.17,"endTime":2050.83,"body":"divorce, even though I had been in"},{"startTime":2047.17,"endTime":2050.83,"body":"counseling for years, you know, at the"},{"startTime":2050.83,"endTime":2054.88,"body":"point that I had asked for the divorce,"},{"startTime":2050.83,"endTime":2054.88,"body":"at that point my husband started saying,"},{"startTime":2055.42,"endTime":2057.31,"body":"oh, we, well, we need to go to counseling."},{"startTime":2057.37,"endTime":2060.67,"body":"At that point, I was over"},{"startTime":2057.37,"endTime":2060.67,"body":"it with the counseling."},{"startTime":2060.88,"endTime":2065.53,"body":"And so he did come to me at one point"},{"startTime":2060.88,"endTime":2065.53,"body":"and tell me that one of the pastors had"},{"startTime":2065.53,"endTime":2070.54,"body":"said that he would do our counseling,"},{"startTime":2065.53,"endTime":2070.54,"body":"but that the way this pastor likes"},{"startTime":2070.54,"endTime":2075.55,"body":"to do counseling is he likes to say,"},{"startTime":2070.54,"endTime":2075.55,"body":"we're not gonna talk about the past."},{"startTime":2075.7,"endTime":2080.47,"body":"We're just gonna, you know, clean,"},{"startTime":2075.7,"endTime":2080.47,"body":"slate it and start talking about how to"},{"startTime":2080.83,"endTime":2082.51,"body":"build a healthy marriage in the future."},{"startTime":2082.99,"endTime":2087.55,"body":"And he goes, but if we're gonna"},{"startTime":2082.99,"endTime":2087.55,"body":"do that, you have to forgive me."},{"startTime":2087.58,"endTime":2089.409,"body":"He kept saying, you have to forgive me."},{"startTime":2089.92,"endTime":2093.88,"body":"And I said, you haven't even"},{"startTime":2089.92,"endTime":2093.88,"body":"apologized for anything, you know?"},{"startTime":2094.27,"endTime":2101.44,"body":"And he said, well, I. Don't want"},{"startTime":2094.27,"endTime":2101.44,"body":"to apologize because that would be"},{"startTime":2101.44,"endTime":2103.69,"body":"admitting I did something wrong."},{"startTime":2104.2,"endTime":2109.48,"body":"And so, so I, you know, I"},{"startTime":2104.2,"endTime":2109.48,"body":"kind of left it at that."},{"startTime":2109.48,"endTime":2112.24,"body":"I was flabbergasted, but,"},{"startTime":2112.3,"endTime":2115.96,"body":"so he's all of a sudden changing"},{"startTime":2112.3,"endTime":2115.96,"body":"his tune is that, and he said,"},{"startTime":2115.96,"endTime":2117.34,"body":"ah, now I wanna get to counseling."},{"startTime":2117.34,"endTime":2120.37,"body":"Is he communicating that"},{"startTime":2117.34,"endTime":2120.37,"body":"to the church leaders?"},{"startTime":2121.06,"endTime":2121.6,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2121.6,"endTime":2126.94,"body":"So I had been pursuing, finding a"},{"startTime":2121.6,"endTime":2126.94,"body":"mediator for us so that we could get the"},{"startTime":2127.12,"endTime":2129.37,"body":"process moving along with the divorce."},{"startTime":2129.64,"endTime":2134.86,"body":"And I found one and we had a meeting set"},{"startTime":2129.64,"endTime":2134.86,"body":"to sit down and meet with the mediator."},{"startTime":2135.52,"endTime":2139.03,"body":"But what, during this time that"},{"startTime":2135.52,"endTime":2139.03,"body":"we're waiting for our meeting,"},{"startTime":2139.45,"endTime":2144.64,"body":"my husband called the lead pastor"},{"startTime":2139.45,"endTime":2144.64,"body":"and told him that he wanted the"},{"startTime":2144.64,"endTime":2148.84,"body":"session to weigh in on our divorce."},{"startTime":2149.665,"endTime":2156.685,"body":"And from what I understand, the only thing"},{"startTime":2149.665,"endTime":2156.685,"body":"the in the session would've been required"},{"startTime":2156.685,"endTime":2161.395,"body":"to do at this point, I didn't know this"},{"startTime":2156.685,"endTime":2161.395,"body":"at the time, would be to investigate."},{"startTime":2162.055,"endTime":2166.855,"body":"So they weren't actually required by"},{"startTime":2162.055,"endTime":2166.855,"body":"their bylaws or they, they call it"},{"startTime":2166.855,"endTime":2168.475,"body":"the book of Short, short or the BCO."},{"startTime":2168.955,"endTime":2172.615,"body":"They weren't actually required"},{"startTime":2168.955,"endTime":2172.615,"body":"by the BCO to punish me."},{"startTime":2172.615,"endTime":2179.245,"body":"They could have chosen to just take a"},{"startTime":2172.615,"endTime":2179.245,"body":"stance of counseling me, but they didn't."},{"startTime":2179.485,"endTime":2187.315,"body":"So what ended up happening was they held"},{"startTime":2179.485,"endTime":2187.315,"body":"a meeting of their session, and during"},{"startTime":2187.315,"endTime":2193.495,"body":"that meeting it was decided that I would"},{"startTime":2187.315,"endTime":2193.495,"body":"be barred from the Lord's Supper for"},{"startTime":2193.495,"endTime":2197.245,"body":"a period of six months, and I'd have"},{"startTime":2193.495,"endTime":2197.245,"body":"to step down from the worship team."},{"startTime":2198.055,"endTime":2198.565,"body":"But there."},{"startTime":2199.18,"endTime":2201.58,"body":"There was no like process to it."},{"startTime":2201.58,"endTime":2205.18,"body":"It was just, this is what we"},{"startTime":2201.58,"endTime":2205.18,"body":"decided and that was that."},{"startTime":2205.69,"endTime":2207.58,"body":"What is your response to that?"},{"startTime":2207.88,"endTime":2210.25,"body":"And like, do you have any input in it?"},{"startTime":2210.25,"endTime":2212.259,"body":"Do you just randomly get a letter?"},{"startTime":2212.319,"endTime":2214.089,"body":"Are there conversations with you?"},{"startTime":2214.089,"endTime":2215.049,"body":"What does that look like?"},{"startTime":2215.38,"endTime":2219.04,"body":"Well, that's, that's part of"},{"startTime":2215.38,"endTime":2219.04,"body":"the problem because in, in doing"},{"startTime":2219.04,"endTime":2222.52,"body":"this, my church actually broke"},{"startTime":2219.04,"endTime":2222.52,"body":"a whole lot of their own rules."},{"startTime":2222.61,"endTime":2228.67,"body":"They are supposed to be required to submit"},{"startTime":2222.61,"endTime":2228.67,"body":"a statement to me in writing, saying"},{"startTime":2228.67,"endTime":2235.18,"body":"what my sin is, and then specifically"},{"startTime":2228.67,"endTime":2235.18,"body":"also in writing what my discipline is."},{"startTime":2235.72,"endTime":2243.4,"body":"I was never told what exactly I was"},{"startTime":2235.72,"endTime":2243.4,"body":"charged with, and in the beginning"},{"startTime":2243.4,"endTime":2247.75,"body":"I thought they were disciplining me"},{"startTime":2243.4,"endTime":2247.75,"body":"because I was pursuing the divorce."},{"startTime":2248.23,"endTime":2254.89,"body":"Years later, I still haven't had this"},{"startTime":2248.23,"endTime":2254.89,"body":"confirmed to me, but I. It sounds like"},{"startTime":2255.85,"endTime":2263.35,"body":"they were actually disciplining me for not"},{"startTime":2255.85,"endTime":2263.35,"body":"submitting to their authority in going to"},{"startTime":2263.35,"endTime":2268.69,"body":"the counselor and in allowing them to make"},{"startTime":2263.35,"endTime":2268.69,"body":"the commission and all that like that."},{"startTime":2268.69,"endTime":2272.259,"body":"That seems like what I was"},{"startTime":2268.69,"endTime":2272.259,"body":"actually disciplined for, but they"},{"startTime":2272.259,"endTime":2275.41,"body":"bypassed all process in doing that."},{"startTime":2275.44,"endTime":2282.19,"body":"And looking back now, I'm like, it's such"},{"startTime":2275.44,"endTime":2282.19,"body":"hypocrisy that they disciplined me for"},{"startTime":2282.19,"endTime":2286.9,"body":"not following procedure when they followed"},{"startTime":2282.19,"endTime":2286.9,"body":"none of their own procedures in doing it."},{"startTime":2287.41,"endTime":2290.74,"body":"Well, and the same time, based on"},{"startTime":2287.41,"endTime":2290.74,"body":"those letters, I mean, you had poured"},{"startTime":2290.74,"endTime":2296.89,"body":"out intimate details of your marriage"},{"startTime":2290.74,"endTime":2296.89,"body":"to the lead pastor, so you would"},{"startTime":2296.89,"endTime":2301.39,"body":"also think that there would be a"},{"startTime":2296.89,"endTime":2301.39,"body":"response to your, to your husband at"},{"startTime":2301.39,"endTime":2304.21,"body":"the time, to either a bar him from."},{"startTime":2304.9,"endTime":2309.25,"body":"The table or at least address some"},{"startTime":2304.9,"endTime":2309.25,"body":"of the things that you brought up in"},{"startTime":2309.25,"endTime":2310.66,"body":"the letter, but that didn't happen."},{"startTime":2310.66,"endTime":2310.93,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2311.2,"endTime":2314.35,"body":"He was, how did they"},{"startTime":2311.2,"endTime":2314.35,"body":"treat him in this process?"},{"startTime":2314.35,"endTime":2314.83,"body":"Was that"},{"startTime":2314.86,"endTime":2319.81,"body":"Well, yeah, I know for a fact he didn't"},{"startTime":2314.86,"endTime":2319.81,"body":"receive any discipline that I know because"},{"startTime":2319.81,"endTime":2326.35,"body":"he started telling people, like the"},{"startTime":2319.81,"endTime":2326.35,"body":"church ruled in my favor and even telling"},{"startTime":2326.65,"endTime":2330.97,"body":"my extended family that like that, you"},{"startTime":2326.65,"endTime":2330.97,"body":"know, well the church ruled in my favor."},{"startTime":2331.6,"endTime":2337.18,"body":"Even, even recently, one of my"},{"startTime":2331.6,"endTime":2337.18,"body":"kids came up to me and said like,"},{"startTime":2337.42,"endTime":2339.28,"body":"are you and dad still married?"},{"startTime":2339.94,"endTime":2341.23,"body":"And I'm like, no."},{"startTime":2341.415,"endTime":2348.1,"body":"And, and he goes, oh, 'cause dad said"},{"startTime":2341.415,"endTime":2348.1,"body":"you're still married in the eyes of God."},{"startTime":2349.39,"endTime":2349.81,"body":"Oh wow."},{"startTime":2350.26,"endTime":2356.11,"body":"That's the kind of thing I'm dealing"},{"startTime":2350.26,"endTime":2356.11,"body":"with because of what the church did."},{"startTime":2356.62,"endTime":2359.29,"body":"How does, how does this"},{"startTime":2356.62,"endTime":2359.29,"body":"friend of yours get involved?"},{"startTime":2359.29,"endTime":2363.91,"body":"So you hire a mediator, what, are you"},{"startTime":2359.29,"endTime":2363.91,"body":"still proceeding with divorce even"},{"startTime":2363.91,"endTime":2365.41,"body":"though you're in church discipline?"},{"startTime":2365.95,"endTime":2369.07,"body":"Like what's, what's that process"},{"startTime":2365.95,"endTime":2369.07,"body":"and then when does this friend"},{"startTime":2369.07,"endTime":2370.72,"body":"get involved to try to Yeah."},{"startTime":2371.47,"endTime":2372.37,"body":"Work through this?"},{"startTime":2372.88,"endTime":2376.78,"body":"So we had our first meeting with"},{"startTime":2372.88,"endTime":2376.78,"body":"the mediator, and during that"},{"startTime":2376.78,"endTime":2379.21,"body":"meeting we reached a full agreement."},{"startTime":2379.54,"endTime":2381.85,"body":"All we had to do was sign it."},{"startTime":2382.51,"endTime":2387.64,"body":"And then when it came time to sign the"},{"startTime":2382.51,"endTime":2387.64,"body":"agreement, my husband refused to sign it."},{"startTime":2388.27,"endTime":2393.28,"body":"And he sent me a text that said, I"},{"startTime":2388.27,"endTime":2393.28,"body":"won't be going to the mediator anymore."},{"startTime":2393.4,"endTime":2397.75,"body":"I won't be signing anything"},{"startTime":2393.4,"endTime":2397.75,"body":"and, and I won't be moving out."},{"startTime":2398.23,"endTime":2403.15,"body":"And again, this is that moment"},{"startTime":2398.23,"endTime":2403.15,"body":"where I feel trapped, you know?"},{"startTime":2403.15,"endTime":2408.07,"body":"It's like, okay, so he's not"},{"startTime":2403.15,"endTime":2408.07,"body":"going to allow me to divorce him."},{"startTime":2409.03,"endTime":2413.41,"body":"So I go to the lead pastor and."},{"startTime":2413.785,"endTime":2417.865,"body":"I show him these texts of him saying he's"},{"startTime":2413.785,"endTime":2417.865,"body":"not gonna go to the mediator, he is not"},{"startTime":2417.865,"endTime":2420.595,"body":"gonna, and I said, can you talk to him?"},{"startTime":2421.135,"endTime":2424.945,"body":"All I wanted him to do was give him a"},{"startTime":2421.135,"endTime":2424.945,"body":"call and be like, Hey man, you know,"},{"startTime":2424.945,"endTime":2426.985,"body":"you really should go to the mediator."},{"startTime":2426.985,"endTime":2431.215,"body":"You don't wanna, you know, force"},{"startTime":2426.985,"endTime":2431.215,"body":"somebody to be married to you."},{"startTime":2431.815,"endTime":2434.545,"body":"But the pastor told me I can't do that."},{"startTime":2434.545,"endTime":2436.135,"body":"We've already ruled against you."},{"startTime":2436.525,"endTime":2440.725,"body":"And basically articulated that it was"},{"startTime":2436.525,"endTime":2440.725,"body":"gonna be like a conflict of interest"},{"startTime":2440.725,"endTime":2442.225,"body":"for him to get involved at that point."},{"startTime":2442.705,"endTime":2448.585,"body":"So at this point I'm feeling, like I"},{"startTime":2442.705,"endTime":2448.585,"body":"said, trapped, trying to figure out how"},{"startTime":2448.585,"endTime":2454.225,"body":"I can move this divorce forward when I'm"},{"startTime":2448.585,"endTime":2454.225,"body":"not getting any support from the church"},{"startTime":2454.255,"endTime":2458.575,"body":"and I'm not getting any support, you"},{"startTime":2454.255,"endTime":2458.575,"body":"know, like, or cooperation from my ex."},{"startTime":2459.175,"endTime":2463.405,"body":"And at this point also, I don't, you know,"},{"startTime":2459.175,"endTime":2463.405,"body":"I just wanna state, 'cause I feel like"},{"startTime":2463.405,"endTime":2467.275,"body":"it makes it make more sense is like my,"},{"startTime":2463.405,"endTime":2467.275,"body":"my own family had already passed away."},{"startTime":2467.275,"endTime":2468.385,"body":"My parents were gone."},{"startTime":2468.685,"endTime":2471.175,"body":"I had two brothers, but"},{"startTime":2468.685,"endTime":2471.175,"body":"they were also already gone."},{"startTime":2471.505,"endTime":2472.345,"body":"So."},{"startTime":2472.69,"endTime":2477.04,"body":"Because of this, I don't, it's not"},{"startTime":2472.69,"endTime":2477.04,"body":"like I have another house I can go to."},{"startTime":2477.22,"endTime":2482.56,"body":"You know, I'm, I'm stuck in this living"},{"startTime":2477.22,"endTime":2482.56,"body":"in this state for as long as this takes."},{"startTime":2483.22,"endTime":2486.85,"body":"So I start thinking like, how"},{"startTime":2483.22,"endTime":2486.85,"body":"do I get things to move forward?"},{"startTime":2487.27,"endTime":2495.07,"body":"So I got the idea to contact the"},{"startTime":2487.27,"endTime":2495.07,"body":"wife and tell her my situation"},{"startTime":2495.73,"endTime":2500.32,"body":"and ask her if her husband might"},{"startTime":2495.73,"endTime":2500.32,"body":"be willing to talk to my husband."},{"startTime":2500.56,"endTime":2502.15,"body":"So I contacted her."},{"startTime":2502.99,"endTime":2506.47,"body":"I sent her all of the letters and"},{"startTime":2502.99,"endTime":2506.47,"body":"things that I sent to the pastors."},{"startTime":2506.47,"endTime":2508.06,"body":"So she had the full story."},{"startTime":2508.96,"endTime":2513.85,"body":"She called me back a little bit later"},{"startTime":2508.96,"endTime":2513.85,"body":"and she said, yeah, my husband will help."},{"startTime":2513.85,"endTime":2519.25,"body":"You know, so that's how he"},{"startTime":2513.85,"endTime":2519.25,"body":"came into helping us negotiate"},{"startTime":2519.25,"endTime":2520.09,"body":"our divorce agreement."},{"startTime":2520.78,"endTime":2525.455,"body":"Was he, uh, was he a mediator"},{"startTime":2520.78,"endTime":2525.455,"body":"or was he just a dude?"},{"startTime":2525.755,"endTime":2527.26,"body":"No, he's a businessman."},{"startTime":2527.26,"endTime":2527.29,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2527.29,"endTime":2531.16,"body":"He's a very successful businessman,"},{"startTime":2527.29,"endTime":2531.16,"body":"and so I thought, you know, he, he"},{"startTime":2531.16,"endTime":2534.79,"body":"would be able to, but more, more"},{"startTime":2531.16,"endTime":2534.79,"body":"than just his negotiation skill."},{"startTime":2534.79,"endTime":2540.37,"body":"I knew my husband and I knew if he"},{"startTime":2534.79,"endTime":2540.37,"body":"had a strong male figure telling him"},{"startTime":2540.43,"endTime":2545.8,"body":"that he should do something, he would"},{"startTime":2540.43,"endTime":2545.8,"body":"be more, you know, accommodating"},{"startTime":2545.8,"endTime":2547.81,"body":"to it than if it was just me."},{"startTime":2548.35,"endTime":2548.71,"body":"So,"},{"startTime":2548.8,"endTime":2549.1,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":2549.34,"endTime":2553.57,"body":"W when the pastor said he had"},{"startTime":2549.34,"endTime":2553.57,"body":"a conflict of interest, it's an"},{"startTime":2553.57,"endTime":2560.29,"body":"interesting statement for someone, a"},{"startTime":2553.57,"endTime":2560.29,"body":"shepherd to make, was he saying that?"},{"startTime":2560.29,"endTime":2561.61,"body":"Because, why was he saying that?"},{"startTime":2561.61,"endTime":2564.46,"body":"Did he give a reason on what"},{"startTime":2561.61,"endTime":2564.46,"body":"the conflict of interest was?"},{"startTime":2565.27,"endTime":2571.03,"body":"He said, you know, because the, the"},{"startTime":2565.27,"endTime":2571.03,"body":"session had already ruled against"},{"startTime":2571.03,"endTime":2575.44,"body":"me, kind of like it wouldn't look"},{"startTime":2571.03,"endTime":2575.44,"body":"good for him to then help me."},{"startTime":2576.325,"endTime":2579.055,"body":"I had already been ruled against."},{"startTime":2579.595,"endTime":2579.895,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2579.895,"endTime":2583.525,"body":"And I find that interesting 'cause"},{"startTime":2579.895,"endTime":2583.525,"body":"you wrote him a letter, you also"},{"startTime":2583.525,"endTime":2587.035,"body":"talked to him in detail about"},{"startTime":2583.525,"endTime":2587.035,"body":"what's happening in your marriage."},{"startTime":2587.964,"endTime":2594.025,"body":"And based on that, he should step in as"},{"startTime":2587.964,"endTime":2594.025,"body":"a shepherd and shepherd the situation."},{"startTime":2594.025,"endTime":2598.795,"body":"'cause you're asking for his help"},{"startTime":2594.025,"endTime":2598.795,"body":"and yet his response sounds like he's"},{"startTime":2598.795,"endTime":2601.705,"body":"dealing with a corporation and in"},{"startTime":2601.765,"endTime":2603.41,"body":"Yeah, it's very, I I,"},{"startTime":2604.0,"endTime":2605.41,"body":"it's a very interesting response."},{"startTime":2605.45,"endTime":2611.185,"body":"I remember after, after I had told"},{"startTime":2605.45,"endTime":2611.185,"body":"him, you know, that I was being told"},{"startTime":2611.185,"endTime":2613.464,"body":"that he's not gonna sign anything."},{"startTime":2613.495,"endTime":2617.214,"body":"He's not gonna move out, you"},{"startTime":2613.495,"endTime":2617.214,"body":"know, and, and he told me, you"},{"startTime":2617.214,"endTime":2619.225,"body":"know, he wouldn't contact him."},{"startTime":2619.225,"endTime":2623.964,"body":"I just, I had this image of me sitting"},{"startTime":2619.225,"endTime":2623.964,"body":"in the pew next to my husband on"},{"startTime":2623.964,"endTime":2629.904,"body":"Sunday morning and him up there on"},{"startTime":2623.964,"endTime":2629.904,"body":"the stage and him knowing that I"},{"startTime":2629.904,"endTime":2634.825,"body":"was sitting there against my will"},{"startTime":2629.904,"endTime":2634.825,"body":"and being okay with that, like."},{"startTime":2635.455,"endTime":2639.415,"body":"That, that was something that just struck"},{"startTime":2635.455,"endTime":2639.415,"body":"across, struck into my brain when he"},{"startTime":2639.415,"endTime":2646.285,"body":"said that was like, so it's okay with"},{"startTime":2639.415,"endTime":2646.285,"body":"you if you know my husband is holding"},{"startTime":2646.285,"endTime":2648.265,"body":"me to this marriage against my will."},{"startTime":2648.295,"endTime":2649.315,"body":"That's all right."},{"startTime":2649.375,"endTime":2651.715,"body":"You know, you're not gonna"},{"startTime":2649.375,"endTime":2651.715,"body":"step in and do something."},{"startTime":2653.69,"endTime":2657.625,"body":"So you felt, did you feel comfortable,"},{"startTime":2653.69,"endTime":2657.625,"body":"would you say comfortable with"},{"startTime":2657.625,"endTime":2659.665,"body":"him ta stepping into that role?"},{"startTime":2659.695,"endTime":2661.615,"body":"Or what was kind of your initial thoughts?"},{"startTime":2661.855,"endTime":2664.375,"body":"I was very comfortable at the time."},{"startTime":2664.405,"endTime":2668.785,"body":"'cause at, at that, you gotta realize"},{"startTime":2664.405,"endTime":2668.785,"body":"that every stage as you're going through"},{"startTime":2668.785,"endTime":2672.925,"body":"this, you're, you're dealing with"},{"startTime":2668.785,"endTime":2672.925,"body":"the cards you're dealt at the moment."},{"startTime":2673.285,"endTime":2680.545,"body":"And at that moment, my situation was"},{"startTime":2673.285,"endTime":2680.545,"body":"that I was still living with my husband."},{"startTime":2681.175,"endTime":2684.655,"body":"He was refusing to move"},{"startTime":2681.175,"endTime":2684.655,"body":"forward and I didn't."},{"startTime":2685.54,"endTime":2689.2,"body":"Have the financial resources"},{"startTime":2685.54,"endTime":2689.2,"body":"to be able to hire an attorney."},{"startTime":2689.62,"endTime":2695.56,"body":"So I felt very trapped in this moment"},{"startTime":2689.62,"endTime":2695.56,"body":"and I was kind of racking my brain for"},{"startTime":2695.56,"endTime":2697.78,"body":"what I could do to move things forward."},{"startTime":2698.32,"endTime":2704.62,"body":"And so reaching out to this friend, was it"},{"startTime":2698.32,"endTime":2704.62,"body":"when he, when he agreed to get involved?"},{"startTime":2704.65,"endTime":2709.15,"body":"It was a lifeline to me"},{"startTime":2704.65,"endTime":2709.15,"body":"because I, I didn't see another"},{"startTime":2709.15,"endTime":2711.22,"body":"way, way out at that point."},{"startTime":2711.55,"endTime":2715.3,"body":"And I mean, it seemed, I was"},{"startTime":2711.55,"endTime":2715.3,"body":"like, wow, who, who wants to get"},{"startTime":2715.3,"endTime":2717.19,"body":"involved in someone else's divorce?"},{"startTime":2717.19,"endTime":2717.55,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":2717.55,"endTime":2722.68,"body":"So the fact that he was willing to try"},{"startTime":2717.55,"endTime":2722.68,"body":"to, you know, move things along and"},{"startTime":2722.68,"endTime":2727.96,"body":"patch things over, make the mediation"},{"startTime":2722.68,"endTime":2727.96,"body":"happen, I was just very grateful."},{"startTime":2728.44,"endTime":2732.19,"body":"And how did that mediation"},{"startTime":2728.44,"endTime":2732.19,"body":"process end up ending?"},{"startTime":2732.19,"endTime":2736.63,"body":"Did it end, did your husband comply?"},{"startTime":2736.9,"endTime":2738.01,"body":"How did that go?"},{"startTime":2738.19,"endTime":2741.88,"body":"Yeah, he, it, it did come to a close and."},{"startTime":2742.66,"endTime":2745.78,"body":"There, there were things about it"},{"startTime":2742.66,"endTime":2745.78,"body":"that were positive and there were"},{"startTime":2745.78,"endTime":2747.16,"body":"things about it that were negative."},{"startTime":2747.61,"endTime":2753.88,"body":"I didn't really feel and, and I didn't"},{"startTime":2747.61,"endTime":2753.88,"body":"really feel the freedom to push back"},{"startTime":2753.88,"endTime":2761.68,"body":"on what was being mediated because"},{"startTime":2753.88,"endTime":2761.68,"body":"anytime I kind of gave any pushback,"},{"startTime":2761.86,"endTime":2766.45,"body":"the reaction was from my husband,"},{"startTime":2761.86,"endTime":2766.45,"body":"well, I'm not gonna sign anything then."},{"startTime":2766.81,"endTime":2772.24,"body":"And so because he kept doing that, I"},{"startTime":2766.81,"endTime":2772.24,"body":"felt like I just kind of had to agree"},{"startTime":2772.84,"endTime":2776.83,"body":"and just be mis agreeable and not,"},{"startTime":2772.84,"endTime":2776.83,"body":"you know, just to keep things going."},{"startTime":2777.1,"endTime":2779.98,"body":"I could not ever be the stopping point."},{"startTime":2780.43,"endTime":2787.72,"body":"So I feel like on under some level"},{"startTime":2780.43,"endTime":2787.72,"body":"of duress, I agreed to a settlement"},{"startTime":2787.72,"endTime":2789.94,"body":"that wasn't really great for me."},{"startTime":2790.06,"endTime":2793.93,"body":"And one of the aspects of"},{"startTime":2790.06,"endTime":2793.93,"body":"that settlement that like."},{"startTime":2794.919,"endTime":2800.109,"body":"Becomes important is that we"},{"startTime":2794.919,"endTime":2800.109,"body":"agreed to that I would have"},{"startTime":2800.109,"endTime":2805.75,"body":"custody for five days and then he"},{"startTime":2800.109,"endTime":2805.75,"body":"would have custody for two days."},{"startTime":2805.99,"endTime":2810.399,"body":"But with, with this was with an"},{"startTime":2805.99,"endTime":2810.399,"body":"eye towards the future because at"},{"startTime":2810.399,"endTime":2816.31,"body":"that time he wanted to have his"},{"startTime":2810.399,"endTime":2816.31,"body":"visitation at the, the marital home."},{"startTime":2817.029,"endTime":2825.879,"body":"So, so his two days were spent at my"},{"startTime":2817.029,"endTime":2825.879,"body":"house and that started to create issues."},{"startTime":2826.029,"endTime":2826.75,"body":"So."},{"startTime":2827.68,"endTime":2831.85,"body":"Like, for example, one thing that"},{"startTime":2827.68,"endTime":2831.85,"body":"happened was he was, he was spending"},{"startTime":2831.85,"endTime":2838.299,"body":"a great deal of time sleeping during"},{"startTime":2831.85,"endTime":2838.299,"body":"his days at the house, and I was really"},{"startTime":2838.299,"endTime":2843.04,"body":"still just doing everything I would"},{"startTime":2838.299,"endTime":2843.04,"body":"normally do, taking care of the children,"},{"startTime":2843.04,"endTime":2844.63,"body":"preparing meals, that kind of thing."},{"startTime":2845.23,"endTime":2847.15,"body":"I started to complain about that."},{"startTime":2847.54,"endTime":2851.32,"body":"I went back to our friend and I"},{"startTime":2847.54,"endTime":2851.32,"body":"said, you know, can you talk to him?"},{"startTime":2851.32,"endTime":2854.11,"body":"He's coming over, but he's"},{"startTime":2851.32,"endTime":2854.11,"body":"just sleeping the whole day."},{"startTime":2854.11,"endTime":2858.52,"body":"And I was even taking photographs,"},{"startTime":2854.11,"endTime":2858.52,"body":"sending them photographs of him sleeping."},{"startTime":2859.24,"endTime":2862.69,"body":"And they said, well, the,"},{"startTime":2859.24,"endTime":2862.69,"body":"and this was the, the pastor"},{"startTime":2862.69,"endTime":2865.09,"body":"kind of echoed our friends."},{"startTime":2865.15,"endTime":2870.4,"body":"That's when I, why I say they like,"},{"startTime":2865.15,"endTime":2870.4,"body":"you don't get to choose how he parents."},{"startTime":2870.4,"endTime":2874.99,"body":"If that's how he wants to spend his"},{"startTime":2870.4,"endTime":2874.99,"body":"time with the children, then you"},{"startTime":2874.99,"endTime":2877.12,"body":"don't, you know, then you should leave."},{"startTime":2877.45,"endTime":2879.76,"body":"Even though it's at my house,"},{"startTime":2877.45,"endTime":2879.76,"body":"I shouldn't even be there."},{"startTime":2879.76,"endTime":2880.63,"body":"I should leave."},{"startTime":2880.75,"endTime":2885.82,"body":"And I was even accused of like"},{"startTime":2880.75,"endTime":2885.82,"body":"staying for the sole purpose of"},{"startTime":2885.82,"endTime":2889.51,"body":"like having these gotcha moments"},{"startTime":2885.82,"endTime":2889.51,"body":"so I could be, oh, you, you know."},{"startTime":2890.02,"endTime":2895.6,"body":"Then another thing that emerged during"},{"startTime":2890.02,"endTime":2895.6,"body":"that time was, you know, I had only, the"},{"startTime":2895.63,"endTime":2899.92,"body":"child support had only been calculated"},{"startTime":2895.63,"endTime":2899.92,"body":"based on me having the kids five days."},{"startTime":2899.92,"endTime":2905.71,"body":"So these two days I had the"},{"startTime":2899.92,"endTime":2905.71,"body":"kids, but I wasn't there."},{"startTime":2905.71,"endTime":2907.66,"body":"There was no support for those two days."},{"startTime":2907.96,"endTime":2912.13,"body":"And so I had spoken to my ex at that"},{"startTime":2907.96,"endTime":2912.13,"body":"time and I had said, you know, you"},{"startTime":2912.13,"endTime":2917.125,"body":"need to provide, I. Food and you know,"},{"startTime":2912.13,"endTime":2917.125,"body":"some kind of support for the children"},{"startTime":2917.125,"endTime":2919.225,"body":"if, if they're your custody days."},{"startTime":2920.005,"endTime":2923.905,"body":"And he was like absolutely refusing."},{"startTime":2923.905,"endTime":2929.785,"body":"And so he went back to our friend who"},{"startTime":2923.905,"endTime":2929.785,"body":"had negotiated the agreement and 'cause"},{"startTime":2929.785,"endTime":2934.465,"body":"I said, whatever he says, I'll abide by,"},{"startTime":2929.785,"endTime":2934.465,"body":"you know, I was trying to be agreeable."},{"startTime":2934.795,"endTime":2940.345,"body":"And our friend said, well those you're,"},{"startTime":2934.795,"endTime":2940.345,"body":"if you're both there, it's shared days."},{"startTime":2940.765,"endTime":2943.075,"body":"So, which legally doesn't exist."},{"startTime":2943.075,"endTime":2945.025,"body":"There's no such thing as shared days."},{"startTime":2945.445,"endTime":2947.635,"body":"But le he was saying"},{"startTime":2945.445,"endTime":2947.635,"body":"legally it's shared days."},{"startTime":2947.635,"endTime":2951.175,"body":"So if she wants you to provide"},{"startTime":2947.635,"endTime":2951.175,"body":"food, she has to leave."},{"startTime":2952.18,"endTime":2958.09,"body":"And so finally I just, in order to,"},{"startTime":2952.18,"endTime":2958.09,"body":"you know, move again, in order to move"},{"startTime":2958.09,"endTime":2962.29,"body":"things along, I'm always making these"},{"startTime":2958.09,"endTime":2962.29,"body":"concessions in order to move things along."},{"startTime":2962.29,"endTime":2967.36,"body":"I went for like about six weeks, where"},{"startTime":2962.29,"endTime":2967.36,"body":"as soon as my ex would show up to do his"},{"startTime":2967.36,"endTime":2973.66,"body":"visitation, I'd leave and then I'd arrive"},{"startTime":2967.36,"endTime":2973.66,"body":"back home that evening and I, and fi"},{"startTime":2973.69,"endTime":2975.55,"body":"the kids started getting upset about it."},{"startTime":2975.55,"endTime":2978.97,"body":"The kids were like, why"},{"startTime":2975.55,"endTime":2978.97,"body":"is mom gone all time?"},{"startTime":2978.97,"endTime":2984.31,"body":"And so finally my ex tells me, what"},{"startTime":2978.97,"endTime":2984.31,"body":"do I have to do to get you to stay?"},{"startTime":2985.03,"endTime":2990.13,"body":"And I said, you need to provide some"},{"startTime":2985.03,"endTime":2990.13,"body":"kind of food, some kind of support."},{"startTime":2990.64,"endTime":2992.86,"body":"And so then he was like, fine, I'll do it."},{"startTime":2993.07,"endTime":2997.27,"body":"And so, but it was like, I was always"},{"startTime":2993.07,"endTime":2997.27,"body":"in this position of having to jump"},{"startTime":2997.27,"endTime":3002.43,"body":"through these crazy hoops to get"},{"startTime":2997.27,"endTime":3002.43,"body":"really what should be basic support."},{"startTime":3003.3,"endTime":3006.03,"body":"And then when I would turn back to."},{"startTime":3006.435,"endTime":3011.385,"body":"The pastors or turned back to our"},{"startTime":3006.435,"endTime":3011.385,"body":"friend to try to negotiate that."},{"startTime":3011.385,"endTime":3016.995,"body":"I was kind of shut down and kind of,"},{"startTime":3011.385,"endTime":3016.995,"body":"and ultimately I was told by him like,"},{"startTime":3016.995,"endTime":3020.535,"body":"look, sooner or later you and your"},{"startTime":3016.995,"endTime":3020.535,"body":"husband need to figure out how, or you"},{"startTime":3020.535,"endTime":3024.195,"body":"and your ex need to figure out how to"},{"startTime":3020.535,"endTime":3024.195,"body":"negotiate these things on your own."},{"startTime":3024.645,"endTime":3028.875,"body":"And he told me he didn't want me to"},{"startTime":3024.645,"endTime":3028.875,"body":"turn to him anymore for that purpose."},{"startTime":3028.875,"endTime":3031.935,"body":"So at that point I just was like,"},{"startTime":3028.875,"endTime":3031.935,"body":"okay, I guess I'm on my own."},{"startTime":3032.055,"endTime":3036.555,"body":"And during all of this, are"},{"startTime":3032.055,"endTime":3036.555,"body":"you under church discipline?"},{"startTime":3037.455,"endTime":3039.135,"body":"The church discipline ended."},{"startTime":3039.84,"endTime":3046.26,"body":"During, actually it ended the same"},{"startTime":3039.84,"endTime":3046.26,"body":"month that I actually filed for divorce."},{"startTime":3046.26,"endTime":3050.91,"body":"So I, my church discipline happened"},{"startTime":3046.26,"endTime":3050.91,"body":"before I had even filed for divorce."},{"startTime":3051.0,"endTime":3053.82,"body":"And that, that is one of"},{"startTime":3051.0,"endTime":3053.82,"body":"the things that's odd."},{"startTime":3053.82,"endTime":3057.6,"body":"It was like, I used to joke that it was"},{"startTime":3053.82,"endTime":3057.6,"body":"like my minority report that we're gonna"},{"startTime":3057.6,"endTime":3060.42,"body":"punish you before you do the crime, but"},{"startTime":3060.42,"endTime":3061.05,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3061.5,"endTime":3064.26,"body":"But, so you're allowed"},{"startTime":3061.5,"endTime":3064.26,"body":"to take communion again?"},{"startTime":3064.41,"endTime":3064.98,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3064.98,"endTime":3070.23,"body":"So I, I started taking communion"},{"startTime":3064.98,"endTime":3070.23,"body":"again before I even filed the papers."},{"startTime":3070.29,"endTime":3073.2,"body":"And I didn't stay very"},{"startTime":3070.29,"endTime":3073.2,"body":"long after that though."},{"startTime":3073.74,"endTime":3078.45,"body":"Didn't you end up meeting with the"},{"startTime":3073.74,"endTime":3078.45,"body":"pastor at, like, during this whole"},{"startTime":3078.45,"endTime":3080.67,"body":"process to discuss the suspension?"},{"startTime":3081.06,"endTime":3082.02,"body":"I did, yeah."},{"startTime":3082.02,"endTime":3086.07,"body":"When, when he reached out to me,"},{"startTime":3082.02,"endTime":3086.07,"body":"which he had told me he, that"},{"startTime":3086.07,"endTime":3088.26,"body":"my suspension was six months."},{"startTime":3088.56,"endTime":3091.745,"body":"I don't think he really,"},{"startTime":3088.56,"endTime":3091.745,"body":"I. Wanted to punish me."},{"startTime":3091.745,"endTime":3093.845,"body":"I so that, that's a whole nother story."},{"startTime":3093.845,"endTime":3098.105,"body":"I, I think, I don't know who it was,"},{"startTime":3093.845,"endTime":3098.105,"body":"but I actually think there was another"},{"startTime":3098.105,"endTime":3105.694,"body":"elder involved that was really kind of"},{"startTime":3098.105,"endTime":3105.694,"body":"demanding their, you know, their blood."},{"startTime":3106.205,"endTime":3108.035,"body":"And I don't know who that would've been."},{"startTime":3108.245,"endTime":3112.745,"body":"I have guesses, but I don't know, because"},{"startTime":3108.245,"endTime":3112.745,"body":"when he called me, he called me and he"},{"startTime":3112.745,"endTime":3119.705,"body":"said, you know, that by his calculation"},{"startTime":3112.745,"endTime":3119.705,"body":"as of September, my punishment is up"},{"startTime":3119.705,"endTime":3123.935,"body":"and did I wanna meet to kind of, I guess"},{"startTime":3119.705,"endTime":3123.935,"body":"it's like have a postmortem, like you"},{"startTime":3123.935,"endTime":3125.375,"body":"can ask me questions, that kind of thing."},{"startTime":3125.495,"endTime":3131.404,"body":"And so I went out to lunch with he"},{"startTime":3125.495,"endTime":3131.404,"body":"and his wife and I said, you know."},{"startTime":3131.91,"endTime":3136.41,"body":"That one of the things I didn't"},{"startTime":3131.91,"endTime":3136.41,"body":"understand was why it was such a foregone"},{"startTime":3136.41,"endTime":3139.74,"body":"conclusion that I had to be disciplined."},{"startTime":3140.25,"endTime":3146.58,"body":"And he kind of said like, well,"},{"startTime":3140.25,"endTime":3146.58,"body":"once your ex said that, that he"},{"startTime":3146.58,"endTime":3152.399,"body":"wanted the session to get involved,"},{"startTime":3146.58,"endTime":3152.399,"body":"that the session had to rule."},{"startTime":3152.94,"endTime":3159.629,"body":"And later years later, when I read"},{"startTime":3152.94,"endTime":3159.629,"body":"the BCO, I would learn that is the"},{"startTime":3159.629,"endTime":3161.339,"body":"BCO is the book of church order."},{"startTime":3161.879,"endTime":3166.68,"body":"That that's not true, that all the BCO"},{"startTime":3161.879,"endTime":3166.68,"body":"says is that they have to investigate."},{"startTime":3166.68,"endTime":3171.87,"body":"It doesn't say they have to rule,"},{"startTime":3166.68,"endTime":3171.87,"body":"but at that time, I hadn't read the"},{"startTime":3171.87,"endTime":3174.6,"body":"BCO, so I just took his word for it."},{"startTime":3174.6,"endTime":3175.44,"body":"I'm like, okay."},{"startTime":3175.5,"endTime":3177.419,"body":"His, he had no choice."},{"startTime":3177.75,"endTime":3182.04,"body":"I had tied his hands, you know, all the"},{"startTime":3177.75,"endTime":3182.04,"body":"things that they had told me coming along."},{"startTime":3182.79,"endTime":3187.95,"body":"And I pretty much, the, the only"},{"startTime":3182.79,"endTime":3187.95,"body":"thing I did push is I, I did ask him."},{"startTime":3188.595,"endTime":3195.23,"body":"Why my ex didn't also receive"},{"startTime":3188.595,"endTime":3195.23,"body":"discipline, and I don't really, he, I"},{"startTime":3195.23,"endTime":3198.645,"body":"ki I kind of just remember him kind of"},{"startTime":3195.23,"endTime":3198.645,"body":"shrugging his shoulders at that one."},{"startTime":3198.645,"endTime":3203.745,"body":"I, I don't really feel like I"},{"startTime":3198.645,"endTime":3203.745,"body":"got a, i a clear answer on that."},{"startTime":3204.105,"endTime":3209.205,"body":"And I had said, well, why didn't"},{"startTime":3204.105,"endTime":3209.205,"body":"you just choose to abstain?"},{"startTime":3209.205,"endTime":3215.444,"body":"Like, it seems like you could just"},{"startTime":3209.205,"endTime":3215.444,"body":"choose and say, you know, no, we,"},{"startTime":3215.475,"endTime":3217.545,"body":"we choose not to rule on this issue."},{"startTime":3218.205,"endTime":3222.734,"body":"And he kind of indicated that wasn't"},{"startTime":3218.205,"endTime":3222.734,"body":"a possibility, which I remember at the"},{"startTime":3222.734,"endTime":3229.004,"body":"time, like feeling like, you know, the"},{"startTime":3222.734,"endTime":3229.004,"body":"session, the session must be appeased,"},{"startTime":3229.004,"endTime":3234.645,"body":"you know, like we need to have some"},{"startTime":3229.004,"endTime":3234.645,"body":"kind of blood sacrifice for the session."},{"startTime":3234.944,"endTime":3235.065,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":3235.185,"endTime":3236.475,"body":"And, and that was me."},{"startTime":3236.714,"endTime":3241.214,"body":"But yeah, after, after that"},{"startTime":3236.714,"endTime":3241.214,"body":"meeting, I walked away feeling like"},{"startTime":3241.785,"endTime":3243.435,"body":"our senior pastor had just done."},{"startTime":3244.35,"endTime":3245.4,"body":"What he had to do."},{"startTime":3245.4,"endTime":3247.08,"body":"His, I, he didn't have a choice."},{"startTime":3247.08,"endTime":3253.68,"body":"But then as the days went on and"},{"startTime":3247.08,"endTime":3253.68,"body":"as I started to read the BCO, I"},{"startTime":3253.68,"endTime":3257.82,"body":"started to realize he had, that there"},{"startTime":3253.68,"endTime":3257.82,"body":"was a lot more he could have done."},{"startTime":3258.0,"endTime":3259.35,"body":"Yeah, that's very confusing."},{"startTime":3259.35,"endTime":3262.77,"body":"Especially because they came, I"},{"startTime":3259.35,"endTime":3262.77,"body":"mean, they came so hard at you to"},{"startTime":3262.8,"endTime":3266.46,"body":"like, put you on church discipline"},{"startTime":3262.8,"endTime":3266.46,"body":"or to, to, to suspend you."},{"startTime":3266.52,"endTime":3270.87,"body":"And they, yet they wanna seem"},{"startTime":3266.52,"endTime":3270.87,"body":"so involved, but then they"},{"startTime":3270.87,"endTime":3272.73,"body":"also don't wanna get involved."},{"startTime":3272.73,"endTime":3275.31,"body":"Like you're getting a lot"},{"startTime":3272.73,"endTime":3275.31,"body":"of mixed messages from them."},{"startTime":3275.76,"endTime":3275.85,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3276.09,"endTime":3281.55,"body":"And, but it's empowering your"},{"startTime":3276.09,"endTime":3281.55,"body":"husband to continue this behavior."},{"startTime":3281.55,"endTime":3281.94,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3281.97,"endTime":3285.12,"body":"Like he's, there's no"},{"startTime":3281.97,"endTime":3285.12,"body":"accountability for him."},{"startTime":3285.87,"endTime":3289.109,"body":"Right, and I actually used"},{"startTime":3285.87,"endTime":3289.109,"body":"that very word with the pastor"},{"startTime":3289.109,"endTime":3290.22,"body":"when I met with him for lunch."},{"startTime":3290.22,"endTime":3293.43,"body":"As I said, you know, do you realize"},{"startTime":3290.22,"endTime":3293.43,"body":"that when the church ruled against"},{"startTime":3293.43,"endTime":3299.759,"body":"me, you empowered him because he"},{"startTime":3293.43,"endTime":3299.759,"body":"went, he, he was telling people"},{"startTime":3299.819,"endTime":3302.399,"body":"that the church was on his side."},{"startTime":3302.549,"endTime":3306.06,"body":"He was, he was even telling my"},{"startTime":3302.549,"endTime":3306.06,"body":"extended family that, you know,"},{"startTime":3306.06,"endTime":3307.74,"body":"well, the church was on my side."},{"startTime":3308.37,"endTime":3312.99,"body":"He, at one point, one of my kids"},{"startTime":3308.37,"endTime":3312.99,"body":"came home from a visit and asked me"},{"startTime":3313.799,"endTime":3319.859,"body":"if we were still married, because"},{"startTime":3313.799,"endTime":3319.859,"body":"since the church had ruled with him,"},{"startTime":3319.859,"endTime":3324.029,"body":"he was saying like that, we're still"},{"startTime":3319.859,"endTime":3324.029,"body":"married in the eyes of God, because"},{"startTime":3324.029,"endTime":3328.919,"body":"this was an unbiblical divorce, but my"},{"startTime":3324.029,"endTime":3328.919,"body":"son was only like eight at the time."},{"startTime":3328.919,"endTime":3334.68,"body":"So it was just so confusing for him"},{"startTime":3328.919,"endTime":3334.68,"body":"to have these two mixed messages like,"},{"startTime":3334.68,"endTime":3337.47,"body":"mommy and daddy are divorced, but"},{"startTime":3334.68,"endTime":3337.47,"body":"daddy's saying they're still married."},{"startTime":3337.919,"endTime":3342.18,"body":"So how, how soon, once"},{"startTime":3337.919,"endTime":3342.18,"body":"the mediation started."},{"startTime":3343.11,"endTime":3347.37,"body":"How, walk us through when was the"},{"startTime":3343.11,"endTime":3347.37,"body":"timeline that the divorce was actually"},{"startTime":3347.37,"endTime":3353.25,"body":"finalized, and did they, did this friend"},{"startTime":3347.37,"endTime":3353.25,"body":"put up any roadblocks for you to get"},{"startTime":3353.25,"endTime":3355.17,"body":"to where you could finalize the divorce"},{"startTime":3355.2,"endTime":3355.92,"body":"roadblocks?"},{"startTime":3355.92,"endTime":3357.3,"body":"I would say no."},{"startTime":3357.39,"endTime":3364.2,"body":"So the, our first mediation appointment"},{"startTime":3357.39,"endTime":3364.2,"body":"with the mediator was in, at the beginning"},{"startTime":3364.2,"endTime":3375.42,"body":"of April of 2022, and then I filed"},{"startTime":3364.2,"endTime":3375.42,"body":"for divorce on September 29th, 2022."},{"startTime":3376.23,"endTime":3379.14,"body":"That was when I, when all the"},{"startTime":3376.23,"endTime":3379.14,"body":"paperwork was finalized, and I"},{"startTime":3379.14,"endTime":3384.06,"body":"just pretty much was just sending"},{"startTime":3379.14,"endTime":3384.06,"body":"it to the judge for, for review."},{"startTime":3384.419,"endTime":3390.18,"body":"And then the divorce itself was"},{"startTime":3384.419,"endTime":3390.18,"body":"fully final on February 8th, 2023."},{"startTime":3390.629,"endTime":3395.91,"body":"So once that divorce is finalized, well,"},{"startTime":3390.629,"endTime":3395.91,"body":"your ex-husband then leaves, you know?"},{"startTime":3395.915,"endTime":3396.004,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3396.084,"endTime":3397.23,"body":"You're in the house."},{"startTime":3397.74,"endTime":3399.81,"body":"How do you engage the church?"},{"startTime":3399.81,"endTime":3404.97,"body":"Do you engage the church then, or, you"},{"startTime":3399.81,"endTime":3404.97,"body":"know, what's your, are you still involved?"},{"startTime":3404.97,"endTime":3406.169,"body":"Like, walk us through that?"},{"startTime":3406.77,"endTime":3407.069,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3407.129,"endTime":3411.54,"body":"It was about a year and a half before, a"},{"startTime":3407.129,"endTime":3411.54,"body":"little more than a year and a half before."},{"startTime":3411.54,"endTime":3414.299,"body":"Finally, he was no longer in the home."},{"startTime":3415.109,"endTime":3421.95,"body":"And so, but once that happened, it,"},{"startTime":3415.109,"endTime":3421.95,"body":"it did help me a lot with finding"},{"startTime":3422.189,"endTime":3427.5,"body":"my voice and being able to speak up"},{"startTime":3422.189,"endTime":3427.5,"body":"for myself because u up until then,"},{"startTime":3427.5,"endTime":3432.629,"body":"I think a lot of people, one of the"},{"startTime":3427.5,"endTime":3432.629,"body":"things they don't realize about the."},{"startTime":3433.05,"endTime":3439.74,"body":"Abuse dynamic is that at some point,"},{"startTime":3433.05,"endTime":3439.74,"body":"you know, I was married for 17 years."},{"startTime":3440.28,"endTime":3449.1,"body":"At some point you, your body is trained"},{"startTime":3440.28,"endTime":3449.1,"body":"to submit to that person and it's very,"},{"startTime":3449.13,"endTime":3455.46,"body":"very difficult to stand up to them,"},{"startTime":3449.13,"endTime":3455.46,"body":"especially when they're in your orbit"},{"startTime":3455.67,"endTime":3457.59,"body":"on a regular basis and in your home."},{"startTime":3458.25,"endTime":3465.78,"body":"So even though we weren't married anymore,"},{"startTime":3458.25,"endTime":3465.78,"body":"when he would kind of stand his ground"},{"startTime":3465.78,"endTime":3468.36,"body":"at me, I would become very intimidated."},{"startTime":3469.05,"endTime":3474.48,"body":"And that was to a large"},{"startTime":3469.05,"endTime":3474.48,"body":"degree, keeping me in my place."},{"startTime":3475.23,"endTime":3476.64,"body":"So once he."},{"startTime":3477.255,"endTime":3482.295,"body":"Once the visits were no longer there,"},{"startTime":3477.255,"endTime":3482.295,"body":"that's when I really went into high gear"},{"startTime":3482.865,"endTime":3485.715,"body":"kind of healing and, you know, reading."},{"startTime":3486.495,"endTime":3491.235,"body":"And one of the things I decided to read"},{"startTime":3486.495,"endTime":3491.235,"body":"was the book of church order, or at least"},{"startTime":3491.235,"endTime":3493.424,"body":"the pos, the parts that seemed pertinent."},{"startTime":3493.424,"endTime":3495.2,"body":"It's, it's quite a, just"},{"startTime":3493.424,"endTime":3495.2,"body":"some light, you know?"},{"startTime":3495.509,"endTime":3495.799,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3496.22,"endTime":3497.745,"body":"At least the parts that seem pertinent."},{"startTime":3498.105,"endTime":3499.335,"body":"Some fun reading."},{"startTime":3499.365,"endTime":3506.475,"body":"And what I started to realize really"},{"startTime":3499.365,"endTime":3506.475,"body":"quickly was that there, there, there were"},{"startTime":3506.475,"endTime":3515.145,"body":"so many restrictions on church leaders"},{"startTime":3506.475,"endTime":3515.145,"body":"that were not followed in my discipline."},{"startTime":3515.205,"endTime":3520.545,"body":"Like they were required to, I think I"},{"startTime":3515.205,"endTime":3520.545,"body":"mentioned this already, that suspending"},{"startTime":3520.545,"endTime":3526.575,"body":"from, from for six months was not"},{"startTime":3520.545,"endTime":3526.575,"body":"even something that was allowed it, it"},{"startTime":3526.575,"endTime":3531.705,"body":"actually specifically says you cannot"},{"startTime":3526.575,"endTime":3531.705,"body":"suspend for a specific amount of time."},{"startTime":3532.305,"endTime":3534.975,"body":"And I saw."},{"startTime":3535.425,"endTime":3537.555,"body":"So many different incidences."},{"startTime":3537.555,"endTime":3542.235,"body":"And then I started also talking to"},{"startTime":3537.555,"endTime":3542.235,"body":"advocates within the, within the"},{"startTime":3542.235,"endTime":3544.275,"body":"PCA church, the Presbyterian church."},{"startTime":3544.965,"endTime":3549.555,"body":"And they were also like, oh, well"},{"startTime":3544.965,"endTime":3549.555,"body":"this was wrong and this was wrong."},{"startTime":3549.975,"endTime":3554.895,"body":"And so as that started to come to"},{"startTime":3549.975,"endTime":3554.895,"body":"light, I decided, you know what?"},{"startTime":3554.925,"endTime":3558.735,"body":"I'm gonna reach out to the church."},{"startTime":3559.395,"endTime":3563.415,"body":"And kind of just why, why"},{"startTime":3559.395,"endTime":3563.415,"body":"was this the way it was?"},{"startTime":3563.415,"endTime":3566.655,"body":"I'm, you know, I'm not happy"},{"startTime":3563.415,"endTime":3566.655,"body":"with how things went down."},{"startTime":3566.835,"endTime":3572.385,"body":"And so I sent a letter to the woman"},{"startTime":3566.835,"endTime":3572.385,"body":"at the church who is the, the pa."},{"startTime":3572.445,"endTime":3576.975,"body":"Like they don't say pastor, the"},{"startTime":3572.445,"endTime":3576.975,"body":"director of Women's Soul Care."},{"startTime":3577.875,"endTime":3580.815,"body":"And, and I told her my story."},{"startTime":3581.535,"endTime":3586.005,"body":"First of all, she had not heard"},{"startTime":3581.535,"endTime":3586.005,"body":"it, which I thought was very"},{"startTime":3586.575,"endTime":3591.975,"body":"interesting, that despite being the"},{"startTime":3586.575,"endTime":3591.975,"body":"director of Women's Soul Care, that."},{"startTime":3592.965,"endTime":3598.335,"body":"She had never been privy to what"},{"startTime":3592.965,"endTime":3598.335,"body":"was going on with me at the time."},{"startTime":3598.365,"endTime":3601.695,"body":"'cause she was at the church before"},{"startTime":3598.365,"endTime":3601.695,"body":"I was, so she knew, she had known"},{"startTime":3601.695,"endTime":3603.795,"body":"me for over 10 years at this point."},{"startTime":3604.755,"endTime":3608.895,"body":"And she did tell me that at one point she"},{"startTime":3604.755,"endTime":3608.895,"body":"had asked the senior pastor if she should"},{"startTime":3608.895,"endTime":3612.165,"body":"try to reach out to me and he told her no."},{"startTime":3612.675,"endTime":3619.605,"body":"So yeah, but I, I basically threw out"},{"startTime":3612.675,"endTime":3619.605,"body":"all of these things I was considering,"},{"startTime":3620.205,"endTime":3624.375,"body":"why wasn't my ex ever disciplined?"},{"startTime":3625.065,"endTime":3630.645,"body":"What, what about all of these rules in the"},{"startTime":3625.065,"endTime":3630.645,"body":"BCO that it appears we're just ignored?"},{"startTime":3631.215,"endTime":3635.085,"body":"And she says, let me talk to the"},{"startTime":3631.215,"endTime":3635.085,"body":"pastor and I'll get back to you."},{"startTime":3635.235,"endTime":3638.325,"body":"And she spoke with two of the"},{"startTime":3635.235,"endTime":3638.325,"body":"pastors and the next day she called"},{"startTime":3638.325,"endTime":3643.035,"body":"me back and she was telling me"},{"startTime":3638.325,"endTime":3643.035,"body":"like, I have great news at least."},{"startTime":3643.035,"endTime":3645.465,"body":"And she's like, at least I"},{"startTime":3643.035,"endTime":3645.465,"body":"hope it's great news for you."},{"startTime":3645.465,"endTime":3648.675,"body":"And then she says, you"},{"startTime":3645.465,"endTime":3648.675,"body":"were never ruled against."},{"startTime":3649.185,"endTime":3650.685,"body":"And I was like."},{"startTime":3651.615,"endTime":3652.575,"body":"Whatcha talking about?"},{"startTime":3652.575,"endTime":3655.995,"body":"Like, I, I mean, it was instant confusion."},{"startTime":3655.995,"endTime":3661.095,"body":"And she starts saying, well, it was"},{"startTime":3655.995,"endTime":3661.095,"body":"just, you know how before we give"},{"startTime":3661.095,"endTime":3664.095,"body":"the Lord Supper, we get up there and"},{"startTime":3661.095,"endTime":3664.095,"body":"we say, you know, if your brother"},{"startTime":3664.095,"endTime":3666.945,"body":"has something against you, go and"},{"startTime":3664.095,"endTime":3666.945,"body":"be reconciled to your brother."},{"startTime":3667.335,"endTime":3674.355,"body":"So the only reason they asked you"},{"startTime":3667.335,"endTime":3674.355,"body":"not to partake was because you"},{"startTime":3674.505,"endTime":3676.185,"body":"weren't reconciled with your brother."},{"startTime":3677.205,"endTime":3682.605,"body":"And I was like, well, he wasn't"},{"startTime":3677.205,"endTime":3682.605,"body":"reconciled with me either, so"},{"startTime":3683.025,"endTime":3685.365,"body":"why was he allowed to take?"},{"startTime":3685.8,"endTime":3689.865,"body":"And she's like, well,"},{"startTime":3685.8,"endTime":3689.865,"body":"I didn't ask them that."},{"startTime":3689.865,"endTime":3692.865,"body":"And then I said, well, and"},{"startTime":3689.865,"endTime":3692.865,"body":"I'm like, well, wait a second."},{"startTime":3692.865,"endTime":3697.365,"body":"And I'm, and you know, as I'm, as I'm"},{"startTime":3692.865,"endTime":3697.365,"body":"talking to her, I'm having more and"},{"startTime":3697.365,"endTime":3698.745,"body":"more of these little bells go off."},{"startTime":3698.745,"endTime":3699.915,"body":"And so then I was like, well."},{"startTime":3700.485,"endTime":3704.985,"body":"How come they, if it was just about the"},{"startTime":3700.485,"endTime":3704.985,"body":"Lord's Supper, then how come I was also"},{"startTime":3704.985,"endTime":3713.565,"body":"kicked off the worship team and how come"},{"startTime":3704.985,"endTime":3713.565,"body":"my ex thought that I was disciplined"},{"startTime":3713.595,"endTime":3715.065,"body":"if I wasn't ever ruled against?"},{"startTime":3715.065,"endTime":3718.815,"body":"And I definitely thought I was"},{"startTime":3715.065,"endTime":3718.815,"body":"disciplined and you know, so I was"},{"startTime":3718.815,"endTime":3720.885,"body":"just going through this all in my mind."},{"startTime":3721.395,"endTime":3726.345,"body":"We ended the conversation and I"},{"startTime":3721.395,"endTime":3726.345,"body":"just remember thinking that I had"},{"startTime":3726.345,"endTime":3729.945,"body":"never felt so gaslit in my life."},{"startTime":3730.005,"endTime":3735.555,"body":"Like it was like that I had"},{"startTime":3730.005,"endTime":3735.555,"body":"spent the last two years living"},{"startTime":3735.555,"endTime":3737.355,"body":"as I had been ruled against."},{"startTime":3737.984,"endTime":3742.575,"body":"Being deprived of the Lord's supper"},{"startTime":3737.984,"endTime":3742.575,"body":"being off the worship team, my ex"},{"startTime":3742.575,"endTime":3746.595,"body":"telling people that the church had"},{"startTime":3742.575,"endTime":3746.595,"body":"ruled against me and now I go to"},{"startTime":3746.595,"endTime":3751.634,"body":"the church to ask questions and I'm"},{"startTime":3746.595,"endTime":3751.634,"body":"told that I was never ruled against."},{"startTime":3752.055,"endTime":3757.455,"body":"I, I remember thinking, okay, the"},{"startTime":3752.055,"endTime":3757.455,"body":"only way I'm gonna get a real straight"},{"startTime":3757.455,"endTime":3762.134,"body":"answer as to what exactly happened and"},{"startTime":3757.455,"endTime":3762.134,"body":"why it happened, the way it happened"},{"startTime":3762.464,"endTime":3764.625,"body":"is if I add more voices to the mix."},{"startTime":3765.105,"endTime":3772.904,"body":"Because at up till this point, I'm feeling"},{"startTime":3765.105,"endTime":3772.904,"body":"like the lead pastor is just te telling"},{"startTime":3772.904,"endTime":3775.605,"body":"me just enough to make it diplomatic."},{"startTime":3775.634,"endTime":3779.835,"body":"You know, try trying to, trying"},{"startTime":3775.634,"endTime":3779.835,"body":"to massage it a little bit,"},{"startTime":3779.835,"endTime":3781.605,"body":"make it a little more palatable."},{"startTime":3782.085,"endTime":3788.504,"body":"But if he has to tell me what happened in"},{"startTime":3782.085,"endTime":3788.504,"body":"front of other people who were actually"},{"startTime":3788.504,"endTime":3791.234,"body":"there when it happened, he can't do that."},{"startTime":3791.895,"endTime":3795.495,"body":"So I decided I was going to write."},{"startTime":3796.23,"endTime":3800.85,"body":"A letter to the pastor asking"},{"startTime":3796.23,"endTime":3800.85,"body":"all my questions and I was"},{"startTime":3800.85,"endTime":3803.339,"body":"gonna copy in all the elders."},{"startTime":3803.819,"endTime":3807.63,"body":"And so I copied in all the"},{"startTime":3803.819,"endTime":3807.63,"body":"people who were current elders."},{"startTime":3808.109,"endTime":3810.93,"body":"But the problem is that it changes"},{"startTime":3808.109,"endTime":3810.93,"body":"quite frequently, which I think"},{"startTime":3810.93,"endTime":3812.1,"body":"it changes about once a year."},{"startTime":3813.029,"endTime":3818.88,"body":"So I also copied in a p bunch of people"},{"startTime":3813.029,"endTime":3818.88,"body":"that I knew had been elders because"},{"startTime":3818.88,"endTime":3822.33,"body":"I was like, if, if you were on the"},{"startTime":3818.88,"endTime":3822.33,"body":"session at the time this happened, I"},{"startTime":3822.33,"endTime":3824.4,"body":"wanted them to be able to weigh in."},{"startTime":3824.91,"endTime":3827.37,"body":"And I also wanted to"},{"startTime":3824.91,"endTime":3827.37,"body":"include women's voices."},{"startTime":3827.37,"endTime":3832.65,"body":"So I included the pastor's wives"},{"startTime":3827.37,"endTime":3832.65,"body":"and I included the staff members"},{"startTime":3832.71,"endTime":3834.509,"body":"of the church that were women."},{"startTime":3835.41,"endTime":3840.69,"body":"And I also like copied in some advocates"},{"startTime":3835.41,"endTime":3840.69,"body":"and people I had been speaking to on my"},{"startTime":3840.69,"endTime":3842.88,"body":"own, but that already knew the story."},{"startTime":3842.88,"endTime":3846.569,"body":"So it was, that was basically who"},{"startTime":3842.88,"endTime":3846.569,"body":"was included on the email and I"},{"startTime":3846.569,"endTime":3853.109,"body":"just asked all my questions and the"},{"startTime":3846.569,"endTime":3853.109,"body":"very next day I got an email back."},{"startTime":3854.1,"endTime":3857.73,"body":"And it took, it took me the"},{"startTime":3854.1,"endTime":3857.73,"body":"whole day just to read the email."},{"startTime":3857.76,"endTime":3863.97,"body":"'cause I was so intimidated without"},{"startTime":3857.76,"endTime":3863.97,"body":"even knowing what the email said, I"},{"startTime":3863.97,"endTime":3865.92,"body":"was afraid of what it was going to say."},{"startTime":3866.19,"endTime":3870.6,"body":"When I finally read it,"},{"startTime":3866.19,"endTime":3870.6,"body":"it, it did not disappoint."},{"startTime":3871.05,"endTime":3874.65,"body":"It was, uh, what, what stood"},{"startTime":3871.05,"endTime":3874.65,"body":"out to me when I just reread it"},{"startTime":3874.65,"endTime":3880.5,"body":"was that it said that our church"},{"startTime":3874.65,"endTime":3880.5,"body":"does not have a culture problem."},{"startTime":3881.4,"endTime":3886.62,"body":"And that if they had a to do all over"},{"startTime":3881.4,"endTime":3886.62,"body":"again that the senior pastor couldn't"},{"startTime":3886.62,"endTime":3888.39,"body":"see doing anything differently."},{"startTime":3888.72,"endTime":3893.82,"body":"Towards the end of the letter, he"},{"startTime":3888.72,"endTime":3893.82,"body":"even started to get a little personal."},{"startTime":3893.82,"endTime":3897.51,"body":"He started to say like, you know,"},{"startTime":3893.82,"endTime":3897.51,"body":"you didn't follow Matthew 18."},{"startTime":3898.38,"endTime":3898.98,"body":"You haven't."},{"startTime":3900.06,"endTime":3903.84,"body":"Represented your ex-husband's"},{"startTime":3900.06,"endTime":3903.84,"body":"point of view here."},{"startTime":3904.35,"endTime":3909.84,"body":"And he said it could be considered"},{"startTime":3904.35,"endTime":3909.84,"body":"libelous what I was doing"},{"startTime":3909.84,"endTime":3911.1,"body":"by sending them the letter."},{"startTime":3911.52,"endTime":3915.39,"body":"And he was like, and you're just, I"},{"startTime":3911.52,"endTime":3915.39,"body":"remember he used the word spraying."},{"startTime":3915.57,"endTime":3917.76,"body":"You're just spraying it out there."},{"startTime":3918.27,"endTime":3919.44,"body":"Like, I don't know."},{"startTime":3919.44,"endTime":3921.78,"body":"It felt very, it felt angry."},{"startTime":3921.96,"endTime":3924.87,"body":"Like he, it seemed like"},{"startTime":3921.96,"endTime":3924.87,"body":"he was mad that I had Was"},{"startTime":3924.87,"endTime":3929.49,"body":"this sent to, like, was it sent"},{"startTime":3924.87,"endTime":3929.49,"body":"to everybody that you messaged?"},{"startTime":3929.64,"endTime":3930.09,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3930.09,"endTime":3934.41,"body":"He, well, he, he wasn't able to copy"},{"startTime":3930.09,"endTime":3934.41,"body":"the advocates 'cause those people had"},{"startTime":3934.41,"endTime":3936.03,"body":"been blind, copied into the email."},{"startTime":3936.39,"endTime":3940.86,"body":"But, but yeah, every, all the elders"},{"startTime":3936.39,"endTime":3940.86,"body":"and himself and the, you know, the"},{"startTime":3940.86,"endTime":3942.3,"body":"women of the church could see it."},{"startTime":3942.81,"endTime":3944.16,"body":"So he sent this to everybody."},{"startTime":3944.16,"endTime":3945.57,"body":"He responded publicly."},{"startTime":3945.63,"endTime":3948.6,"body":"He did, he responded pub"},{"startTime":3945.63,"endTime":3948.6,"body":"as, as publicly as I had."},{"startTime":3948.6,"endTime":3948.81,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3949.08,"endTime":3949.23,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3949.47,"endTime":3949.71,"body":"So"},{"startTime":3950.7,"endTime":3954.66,"body":"did he answer any of your questions"},{"startTime":3950.7,"endTime":3954.66,"body":"outside of just making excuses?"},{"startTime":3955.425,"endTime":3960.945,"body":"Um, he put, he put a lot of effort"},{"startTime":3955.425,"endTime":3960.945,"body":"into listing the timeline of events"},{"startTime":3961.425,"endTime":3967.065,"body":"and he kept saying, like, you were"},{"startTime":3961.425,"endTime":3967.065,"body":"saying that, you know, your husband"},{"startTime":3967.065,"endTime":3969.285,"body":"was a good man, things like that."},{"startTime":3970.095,"endTime":3972.525,"body":"And so we, you know, of course."},{"startTime":3972.525,"endTime":3977.145,"body":"How would we know that, you know,"},{"startTime":3972.525,"endTime":3977.145,"body":"this was not a good situation for you?"},{"startTime":3977.175,"endTime":3979.035,"body":"'cause you were saying he was a good man."},{"startTime":3979.515,"endTime":3984.885,"body":"Well, the whole gist of my letter"},{"startTime":3979.515,"endTime":3984.885,"body":"to them, the public letter had been"},{"startTime":3985.845,"endTime":3989.955,"body":"that I think they need to get some"},{"startTime":3985.845,"endTime":3989.955,"body":"training and, I mean, I wasn't even"},{"startTime":3989.955,"endTime":3991.755,"body":"really asking them for an apology."},{"startTime":3991.755,"endTime":3993.495,"body":"I just wanted them to get training."},{"startTime":3993.495,"endTime":3997.035,"body":"I said so that, so that this"},{"startTime":3993.495,"endTime":3997.035,"body":"didn't happen again and."},{"startTime":3997.65,"endTime":3999.69,"body":"I didn't get the impression"},{"startTime":3997.65,"endTime":3999.69,"body":"they were planning to get"},{"startTime":3999.69,"endTime":4001.7,"body":"training based on that email."},{"startTime":4002.36,"endTime":4006.11,"body":"And I, I, so I just, when I wrote"},{"startTime":4002.36,"endTime":4006.11,"body":"back to him again, I just took all"},{"startTime":4006.11,"endTime":4010.67,"body":"the, you know, quotes from his letter"},{"startTime":4006.11,"endTime":4010.67,"body":"and just started responding to them."},{"startTime":4010.67,"endTime":4015.44,"body":"And I said, you know, it's really"},{"startTime":4010.67,"endTime":4015.44,"body":"common thing for women who are in"},{"startTime":4015.44,"endTime":4021.95,"body":"DV situations to praise their spouse"},{"startTime":4015.44,"endTime":4021.95,"body":"because we, you know, I, I'm like,"},{"startTime":4021.95,"endTime":4026.75,"body":"there's, there's still the father,"},{"startTime":4021.95,"endTime":4026.75,"body":"he's still the father of my kids."},{"startTime":4027.08,"endTime":4031.34,"body":"I'm still gonna present him"},{"startTime":4027.08,"endTime":4031.34,"body":"in the best light that I can."},{"startTime":4031.7,"endTime":4036.59,"body":"So, but like, when I'm saying, saying"},{"startTime":4031.7,"endTime":4036.59,"body":"things like, you know, he's a good man."},{"startTime":4036.59,"endTime":4043.1,"body":"It's like things like he goes to work, he"},{"startTime":4036.59,"endTime":4043.1,"body":"doesn't hit the kids, you know, he does."},{"startTime":4043.49,"endTime":4047.3,"body":"And it's, it's very ta taking the, the."},{"startTime":4047.945,"endTime":4053.345,"body":"Really bottom of the barrel, bare"},{"startTime":4047.945,"endTime":4053.345,"body":"minimum type stuff, and using that"},{"startTime":4053.345,"endTime":4055.475,"body":"to say, well, he's a good man."},{"startTime":4055.715,"endTime":4059.465,"body":"How much did you tell them when"},{"startTime":4055.715,"endTime":4059.465,"body":"you went to them for help about"},{"startTime":4059.465,"endTime":4061.115,"body":"the dynamics of your marriage?"},{"startTime":4061.175,"endTime":4068.79,"body":"Oh, I, I was graphically, like I"},{"startTime":4061.175,"endTime":4068.79,"body":"described sexual encounters in detail."},{"startTime":4069.53,"endTime":4076.505,"body":"As a matter of fact, I took flack for"},{"startTime":4069.53,"endTime":4076.505,"body":"doing that because the pastor told me that"},{"startTime":4076.505,"endTime":4078.905,"body":"my letter made him very uncomfortable."},{"startTime":4079.565,"endTime":4084.545,"body":"And I was like, yeah, my sex life made"},{"startTime":4079.565,"endTime":4084.545,"body":"me very uncomfortable too, you know?"},{"startTime":4084.845,"endTime":4089.105,"body":"And, but part of the reason that I"},{"startTime":4084.845,"endTime":4089.105,"body":"was that graphic was that whenever I"},{"startTime":4089.105,"endTime":4095.375,"body":"wasn't, people just seemed to chalk it"},{"startTime":4089.105,"endTime":4095.375,"body":"up like it was normal marriage, libido"},{"startTime":4095.375,"endTime":4102.274,"body":"differences, like, and so I felt like I"},{"startTime":4095.375,"endTime":4102.274,"body":"needed to be that graphic in order for"},{"startTime":4102.274,"endTime":4104.285,"body":"them to understand what was happening."},{"startTime":4105.05,"endTime":4108.859,"body":"When I sent that letter, I also"},{"startTime":4105.05,"endTime":4108.859,"body":"told the senior pastor that he"},{"startTime":4108.859,"endTime":4112.55,"body":"could share it with as many people"},{"startTime":4108.859,"endTime":4112.55,"body":"as he felt was necessary in order."},{"startTime":4112.58,"endTime":4115.55,"body":"'cause I knew that it might be"},{"startTime":4112.58,"endTime":4115.55,"body":"necessary for them to hear those"},{"startTime":4115.55,"endTime":4120.05,"body":"details in order for them to realize"},{"startTime":4115.55,"endTime":4120.05,"body":"that this is not a normal situation."},{"startTime":4120.979,"endTime":4125.12,"body":"But I came to find out later that"},{"startTime":4120.979,"endTime":4125.12,"body":"he didn't share those details with"},{"startTime":4125.12,"endTime":4130.189,"body":"them because he said that it made him"},{"startTime":4125.12,"endTime":4130.189,"body":"uncomfortable to, to share the letter."},{"startTime":4130.819,"endTime":4135.109,"body":"So I was like, well, in, in my brain,"},{"startTime":4130.819,"endTime":4135.109,"body":"I'm thinking, well then they don't even"},{"startTime":4135.109,"endTime":4140.51,"body":"know what they're supposedly ruling"},{"startTime":4135.109,"endTime":4140.51,"body":"on if you didn't share it with them."},{"startTime":4141.05,"endTime":4147.47,"body":"And I, I do find it really interesting"},{"startTime":4141.05,"endTime":4147.47,"body":"that none of the, like the, all"},{"startTime":4147.47,"endTime":4152.059,"body":"these elders that were copied in"},{"startTime":4147.47,"endTime":4152.059,"body":"this letter, none of them aside from"},{"startTime":4152.059,"endTime":4154.43,"body":"the senior pastor wrote back to me."},{"startTime":4155.359,"endTime":4157.97,"body":"Which to me, that speaks a lot to me."},{"startTime":4157.97,"endTime":4163.46,"body":"It either says either you're a group"},{"startTime":4157.97,"endTime":4163.46,"body":"of yes men, where everyone just agrees."},{"startTime":4164.0,"endTime":4169.91,"body":"Or you don't feel the freedom and the"},{"startTime":4164.0,"endTime":4169.91,"body":"space to have a dissenting opinion."},{"startTime":4170.45,"endTime":4176.405,"body":"And did they ever offer like any"},{"startTime":4170.45,"endTime":4176.405,"body":"explanation for the fact that one, like."},{"startTime":4177.29,"endTime":4182.569,"body":"Them stepping out of the bounds"},{"startTime":4177.29,"endTime":4182.569,"body":"of the book of church order."},{"startTime":4182.72,"endTime":4183.59,"body":"Am I saying that right?"},{"startTime":4183.59,"endTime":4186.35,"body":"I always You are feel like when we get"},{"startTime":4183.59,"endTime":4186.35,"body":"in these like high church episodes, I'm"},{"startTime":4186.35,"endTime":4187.91,"body":"like, we're talking about Harry Potter."},{"startTime":4187.91,"endTime":4188.775,"body":"I always feel that way."},{"startTime":4189.075,"endTime":4190.175,"body":"I'm like, what?"},{"startTime":4190.94,"endTime":4192.14,"body":"What is happening right now?"},{"startTime":4192.47,"endTime":4194.36,"body":"Well, but like, did they address that?"},{"startTime":4194.36,"endTime":4195.14,"body":"That they went."},{"startTime":4195.755,"endTime":4197.135,"body":"Stepped out of bounds with that."},{"startTime":4197.525,"endTime":4201.455,"body":"Yeah, it was always presented"},{"startTime":4197.525,"endTime":4201.455,"body":"as, it was done as like a"},{"startTime":4201.455,"endTime":4203.765,"body":"favor to me, like on my behalf."},{"startTime":4204.245,"endTime":4207.275,"body":"You know, they handled it in"},{"startTime":4204.245,"endTime":4207.275,"body":"executive session, which is this"},{"startTime":4207.275,"endTime":4212.975,"body":"little private meeting, which"},{"startTime":4207.275,"endTime":4212.975,"body":"keeps, it, keeps several things."},{"startTime":4212.975,"endTime":4216.905,"body":"I don't know who was included in executive"},{"startTime":4212.975,"endTime":4216.905,"body":"session or who was asked to leave, so I"},{"startTime":4216.905,"endTime":4218.825,"body":"don't really know who my accusers are."},{"startTime":4219.275,"endTime":4224.285,"body":"There's no record of if anybody spoke"},{"startTime":4219.275,"endTime":4224.285,"body":"on my behalf, if anybody, you know,"},{"startTime":4224.285,"endTime":4227.375,"body":"anyone was particularly against me."},{"startTime":4227.375,"endTime":4229.385,"body":"I, I don't have any kind"},{"startTime":4227.375,"endTime":4229.385,"body":"of record of any of that."},{"startTime":4229.385,"endTime":4232.115,"body":"I don't have a record of who"},{"startTime":4229.385,"endTime":4232.115,"body":"voted which way, or if the vote"},{"startTime":4232.115,"endTime":4236.825,"body":"was unanimous and, and that's all"},{"startTime":4232.115,"endTime":4236.825,"body":"because they kept it on the down low."},{"startTime":4237.365,"endTime":4243.125,"body":"I think on some level, if I, if I had to"},{"startTime":4237.365,"endTime":4243.125,"body":"put myself in their shoes, I think on some"},{"startTime":4243.125,"endTime":4246.605,"body":"level they thought they were being kind."},{"startTime":4247.295,"endTime":4254.405,"body":"By going around the BCO, because if they"},{"startTime":4247.295,"endTime":4254.405,"body":"would have actually followed the BCO, I"},{"startTime":4254.405,"endTime":4256.385,"body":"would've ended up being excommunicated."},{"startTime":4257.285,"endTime":4261.665,"body":"Because if you find someone in sin and"},{"startTime":4257.285,"endTime":4261.665,"body":"they don't repent, which if you're getting"},{"startTime":4261.665,"endTime":4263.945,"body":"divorced, that means you stop the divorce."},{"startTime":4264.665,"endTime":4269.435,"body":"So if they don't repent, then"},{"startTime":4264.665,"endTime":4269.435,"body":"you need to excommunicate them."},{"startTime":4269.585,"endTime":4274.265,"body":"And so I think their thought is, well,"},{"startTime":4269.585,"endTime":4274.265,"body":"we don't really wanna excommunicate"},{"startTime":4274.265,"endTime":4278.375,"body":"her, so let's do it this way."},{"startTime":4278.765,"endTime":4283.595,"body":"Just give her the six months No Lord's"},{"startTime":4278.765,"endTime":4283.595,"body":"Supper, which is, I mean, some people"},{"startTime":4283.595,"endTime":4286.625,"body":"might think that's not a big deal"},{"startTime":4283.595,"endTime":4286.625,"body":"to be barred from the Lord's Supper,"},{"startTime":4287.315,"endTime":4291.395,"body":"but it is the step right before"},{"startTime":4287.315,"endTime":4291.395,"body":"excommunication, it's like everything."},{"startTime":4291.395,"endTime":4295.205,"body":"But so I think they thought we're"},{"startTime":4291.395,"endTime":4295.205,"body":"gonna give her this, for lack of a"},{"startTime":4295.205,"endTime":4300.275,"body":"better term, slap on the wrist and then"},{"startTime":4295.205,"endTime":4300.275,"body":"let her go back, you know, so that."},{"startTime":4301.1,"endTime":4305.3,"body":"Whoever was so upset that I had to"},{"startTime":4301.1,"endTime":4305.3,"body":"be punished, that that person could"},{"startTime":4305.3,"endTime":4308.72,"body":"be appeased, but at the same time,"},{"startTime":4305.3,"endTime":4308.72,"body":"we don't have to excommunicate her."},{"startTime":4308.72,"endTime":4312.98,"body":"I, I think, and I can't prove it 'cause"},{"startTime":4308.72,"endTime":4312.98,"body":"I don't know motivations and I was not"},{"startTime":4312.98,"endTime":4316.22,"body":"in the meeting, but that's my vibe."},{"startTime":4316.73,"endTime":4322.28,"body":"I also when you were like talking"},{"startTime":4316.73,"endTime":4322.28,"body":"about how it was explained to the"},{"startTime":4322.28,"endTime":4328.88,"body":"Soul Care director for women, does it"},{"startTime":4322.28,"endTime":4328.88,"body":"like just skive you out a little bit?"},{"startTime":4328.88,"endTime":4333.98,"body":"That like the charge was that you weren't"},{"startTime":4328.88,"endTime":4333.98,"body":"reconciled to your brother husband?"},{"startTime":4334.55,"endTime":4337.91,"body":"Like that language is so weird."},{"startTime":4337.91,"endTime":4344.12,"body":"You're like, brother, husband, what's"},{"startTime":4337.91,"endTime":4344.12,"body":"going, like, what is happening?"},{"startTime":4344.12,"endTime":4350.27,"body":"It's just so ridiculous that they"},{"startTime":4344.12,"endTime":4350.27,"body":"couldn't even be consistent between the"},{"startTime":4350.27,"endTime":4353.57,"body":"two of you both experiencing the same."},{"startTime":4354.514,"endTime":4358.175,"body":"Level of air quotes,"},{"startTime":4354.514,"endTime":4358.175,"body":"accountability for this situation."},{"startTime":4358.175,"endTime":4363.184,"body":"And I just went back as you were"},{"startTime":4358.175,"endTime":4363.184,"body":"talking and res skimmed through your"},{"startTime":4363.215,"endTime":4369.785,"body":"initial emails and you were more than"},{"startTime":4363.215,"endTime":4369.785,"body":"forthright about the dynamics at play."},{"startTime":4370.295,"endTime":4374.825,"body":"I wouldn't say it was extra gratuitous,"},{"startTime":4370.295,"endTime":4374.825,"body":"but it got the point across."},{"startTime":4374.915,"endTime":4380.675,"body":"So it's just, so I di I wanna say"},{"startTime":4374.915,"endTime":4380.675,"body":"that for you just to bear witness"},{"startTime":4380.675,"endTime":4384.094,"body":"to the emails publicly so that"},{"startTime":4380.675,"endTime":4384.094,"body":"people understand, thank you."},{"startTime":4384.094,"endTime":4389.705,"body":"That this isn't just like, I think"},{"startTime":4384.094,"endTime":4389.705,"body":"you come across so kind and charitable"},{"startTime":4389.705,"endTime":4394.385,"body":"that people might, that there was"},{"startTime":4389.705,"endTime":4394.385,"body":"room for you to have not been direct"},{"startTime":4394.445,"endTime":4395.795,"body":"about what you were experiencing."},{"startTime":4395.795,"endTime":4397.594,"body":"So that could lead to some confusion."},{"startTime":4397.955,"endTime":4405.695,"body":"But you have in writing what you"},{"startTime":4397.955,"endTime":4405.695,"body":"said and their responses and it."},{"startTime":4406.46,"endTime":4407.48,"body":"Was direct."},{"startTime":4407.51,"endTime":4411.83,"body":"They were aware of what was going on in"},{"startTime":4407.51,"endTime":4411.83,"body":"the dynamics at play and chose to still"},{"startTime":4412.37,"endTime":4419.33,"body":"bar you from the communion table and"},{"startTime":4412.37,"endTime":4419.33,"body":"then apparently fake put you under church"},{"startTime":4419.33,"endTime":4422.809,"body":"discipline, which I also wanna address."},{"startTime":4423.139,"endTime":4427.67,"body":"This is all during the time leading"},{"startTime":4423.139,"endTime":4427.67,"body":"up to you going into mediation,"},{"startTime":4427.67,"endTime":4429.139,"body":"settlement, or like filing, right."},{"startTime":4429.139,"endTime":4432.2,"body":"So you're in mediation while you're"},{"startTime":4429.139,"endTime":4432.2,"body":"under church discipline, correct?"},{"startTime":4432.23,"endTime":4432.8,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":4432.8,"endTime":4433.19,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4433.19,"endTime":4433.849,"body":"And going"},{"startTime":4433.849,"endTime":4434.21,"body":"into the"},{"startTime":4434.21,"endTime":4434.66,"body":"filing."},{"startTime":4434.66,"endTime":4434.9,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":4434.99,"endTime":4442.849,"body":"So now looking back, do you feel"},{"startTime":4434.99,"endTime":4442.849,"body":"that being placed into a position"},{"startTime":4442.88,"endTime":4448.79,"body":"of shame negatively affected your"},{"startTime":4442.88,"endTime":4448.79,"body":"ability to advocate for yourself"},{"startTime":4449.09,"endTime":4451.16,"body":"during the mediation process?"},{"startTime":4451.16,"endTime":4452.75,"body":"Like what would that have looked like?"},{"startTime":4452.99,"endTime":4456.41,"body":"I know you can't know for"},{"startTime":4452.99,"endTime":4456.41,"body":"sure, but had the church come"},{"startTime":4456.41,"endTime":4463.474,"body":"alongside you and supported you"},{"startTime":4456.41,"endTime":4463.474,"body":"and helped to make you not feel."},{"startTime":4464.495,"endTime":4468.875,"body":"You were going to hell if you died the"},{"startTime":4464.495,"endTime":4468.875,"body":"next day, which is what you referenced"},{"startTime":4468.875,"endTime":4473.135,"body":"feeling in the first part of your story,"},{"startTime":4468.875,"endTime":4473.135,"body":"do you think that could have potentially"},{"startTime":4473.135,"endTime":4476.195,"body":"changed the outcome of this settlement?"},{"startTime":4476.495,"endTime":4477.575,"body":"A hundred percent."},{"startTime":4477.845,"endTime":4478.775,"body":"A hundred percent."},{"startTime":4478.775,"endTime":4483.695,"body":"It would've made such a difference to"},{"startTime":4478.775,"endTime":4483.695,"body":"me to feel like I had some support,"},{"startTime":4484.085,"endTime":4488.525,"body":"because like I said, my I di I didn't"},{"startTime":4484.085,"endTime":4488.525,"body":"have my immediate family, so it really"},{"startTime":4488.525,"endTime":4496.145,"body":"was, was just me and the only people"},{"startTime":4488.525,"endTime":4496.145,"body":"I ha I had, I think like one friend"},{"startTime":4496.355,"endTime":4502.445,"body":"and then I had my online community"},{"startTime":4496.355,"endTime":4502.445,"body":"that was speaking positively to me and"},{"startTime":4502.775,"endTime":4510.125,"body":"everybody else was telling me that,"},{"startTime":4502.775,"endTime":4510.125,"body":"you know, I needed to just move on."},{"startTime":4510.365,"endTime":4514.055,"body":"I, you know, like as far as from"},{"startTime":4510.365,"endTime":4514.055,"body":"the church, that I needed to just"},{"startTime":4514.055,"endTime":4519.035,"body":"move on and get over it, that"},{"startTime":4514.055,"endTime":4519.035,"body":"I needed to forgive them and."},{"startTime":4519.68,"endTime":4523.34,"body":"It's just, it was, it's not that I"},{"startTime":4519.68,"endTime":4523.34,"body":"don't forgive them, I actually don't"},{"startTime":4523.34,"endTime":4526.88,"body":"feel like I'm someone that's full"},{"startTime":4523.34,"endTime":4526.88,"body":"of all this rage and anger at them."},{"startTime":4527.45,"endTime":4533.72,"body":"I just don't want anybody else to get hurt"},{"startTime":4527.45,"endTime":4533.72,"body":"by the, the same system that chewed me up."},{"startTime":4534.5,"endTime":4539.42,"body":"And when I see that there is kind of"},{"startTime":4534.5,"endTime":4539.42,"body":"a lack of acknowledgement that they"},{"startTime":4539.42,"endTime":4543.86,"body":"would do anything differently, which,"},{"startTime":4539.42,"endTime":4543.86,"body":"you know, I can, I can't think of many"},{"startTime":4543.86,"endTime":4546.98,"body":"difficult things I've gone through"},{"startTime":4543.86,"endTime":4546.98,"body":"in my life that I can't look back and"},{"startTime":4546.98,"endTime":4548.9,"body":"find something I would do differently."},{"startTime":4549.77,"endTime":4555.53,"body":"So the fact that there's that kind of"},{"startTime":4549.77,"endTime":4555.53,"body":"lack of self-awareness and recognition"},{"startTime":4556.46,"endTime":4559.01,"body":"makes me really fear for what."},{"startTime":4559.595,"endTime":4564.515,"body":"Other women in a similar situation"},{"startTime":4559.595,"endTime":4564.515,"body":"to myself would be faced with if they"},{"startTime":4564.515,"endTime":4566.195,"body":"were to go through the same situation."},{"startTime":4566.555,"endTime":4571.505,"body":"I think about you saying you were afraid"},{"startTime":4566.555,"endTime":4571.505,"body":"to push back because you were worried"},{"startTime":4571.505,"endTime":4576.275,"body":"that that would end in you not being"},{"startTime":4571.505,"endTime":4576.275,"body":"able to get out of this situation."},{"startTime":4576.335,"endTime":4581.225,"body":"'cause he would not sign"},{"startTime":4576.335,"endTime":4581.225,"body":"if you gave any pushback."},{"startTime":4581.255,"endTime":4587.135,"body":"And I think about the power that that"},{"startTime":4581.255,"endTime":4587.135,"body":"gave him, whether he utilized that or not."},{"startTime":4587.135,"endTime":4593.045,"body":"Like I don't, I wasn't sitting there,"},{"startTime":4587.135,"endTime":4593.045,"body":"but like he was empowered by the church"},{"startTime":4593.675,"endTime":4602.135,"body":"to make it hard and to not do anything"},{"startTime":4593.675,"endTime":4602.135,"body":"himself, to try to fight to be better."},{"startTime":4602.615,"endTime":4609.035,"body":"And that put you in a really precarious"},{"startTime":4602.615,"endTime":4609.035,"body":"situation going into mediation and."},{"startTime":4609.53,"endTime":4613.49,"body":"It grosses me out that the church is"},{"startTime":4609.53,"endTime":4613.49,"body":"not able to be reflective on that."},{"startTime":4613.49,"endTime":4616.67,"body":"Before we started recording, we"},{"startTime":4613.49,"endTime":4616.67,"body":"were talking a little bit about how"},{"startTime":4617.15,"endTime":4619.61,"body":"there's a space and empathy for this."},{"startTime":4619.82,"endTime":4622.43,"body":"Like for them to not know what to do."},{"startTime":4623.045,"endTime":4628.745,"body":"As leaders and to have never done this"},{"startTime":4623.045,"endTime":4628.745,"body":"before, or never like had a woman tell"},{"startTime":4628.745,"endTime":4632.255,"body":"them something like this before and to"},{"startTime":4628.745,"endTime":4632.255,"body":"be kind of scrambling, what do we do?"},{"startTime":4632.255,"endTime":4635.645,"body":"We've been told this about divorce,"},{"startTime":4632.255,"endTime":4635.645,"body":"we've been told this about abuse."},{"startTime":4636.215,"endTime":4639.965,"body":"There's room for them to"},{"startTime":4636.215,"endTime":4639.965,"body":"mess up even though there's"},{"startTime":4639.965,"endTime":4641.555,"body":"consequences for those mess up."},{"startTime":4641.675,"endTime":4646.445,"body":"That's not an excuse, but the fact"},{"startTime":4641.675,"endTime":4646.445,"body":"that they aren't even owning that"},{"startTime":4646.445,"endTime":4648.425,"body":"they messed up is just devastating."},{"startTime":4648.425,"endTime":4652.505,"body":"It's devastating for them too, like,"},{"startTime":4648.425,"endTime":4652.505,"body":"'cause being honest with ourselves"},{"startTime":4652.505,"endTime":4655.295,"body":"matters and it matters for our own souls."},{"startTime":4655.295,"endTime":4658.475,"body":"So it's really sad that they"},{"startTime":4655.295,"endTime":4658.475,"body":"aren't able to grapple with that."},{"startTime":4658.475,"endTime":4665.315,"body":"For the, for ev, for themselves, for"},{"startTime":4658.475,"endTime":4665.315,"body":"you, for your kids, for your ex, and"},{"startTime":4665.315,"endTime":4669.425,"body":"for any other people in their church"},{"startTime":4665.315,"endTime":4669.425,"body":"that are going through something"},{"startTime":4669.425,"endTime":4673.025,"body":"similar to you, which it's not uncommon."},{"startTime":4673.505,"endTime":4675.395,"body":"For people to be going"},{"startTime":4673.505,"endTime":4675.395,"body":"through what you went through."},{"startTime":4675.695,"endTime":4675.995,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4676.505,"endTime":4676.925,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4676.985,"endTime":4681.995,"body":"There was this one instance early"},{"startTime":4676.985,"endTime":4681.995,"body":"on when I was first disclosing my"},{"startTime":4681.995,"endTime":4685.295,"body":"situation to my pastors, that I"},{"startTime":4681.995,"endTime":4685.295,"body":"was speaking to the pastor, that I"},{"startTime":4685.295,"endTime":4687.005,"body":"was actually not the lead pastor."},{"startTime":4687.065,"endTime":4688.505,"body":"I was actually closest to him."},{"startTime":4688.715,"endTime":4694.895,"body":"I worked most directly with him and"},{"startTime":4688.715,"endTime":4694.895,"body":"I told him my story and he said, wow."},{"startTime":4694.895,"endTime":4699.545,"body":"He says, well, that's, that's"},{"startTime":4694.895,"endTime":4699.545,"body":"really difficult, but I don't think"},{"startTime":4699.545,"endTime":4704.525,"body":"it rises to the level of abuse"},{"startTime":4699.545,"endTime":4704.525,"body":"because he didn't hold you down."},{"startTime":4705.005,"endTime":4711.125,"body":"I was still kind of grappling on my"},{"startTime":4705.005,"endTime":4711.125,"body":"own with what I had been through."},{"startTime":4711.245,"endTime":4717.515,"body":"I was still developing language,"},{"startTime":4711.245,"endTime":4717.515,"body":"and so having him discount that was"},{"startTime":4718.235,"endTime":4720.665,"body":"just absolutely devastating to me."},{"startTime":4721.595,"endTime":4726.245,"body":"Putting me in a position"},{"startTime":4721.595,"endTime":4726.245,"body":"where I felt like I had to."},{"startTime":4726.845,"endTime":4731.435,"body":"Even defend that I had the right"},{"startTime":4726.845,"endTime":4731.435,"body":"to want to be out of the marriage."},{"startTime":4732.275,"endTime":4737.405,"body":"And I feel like, you know what I think"},{"startTime":4732.275,"endTime":4737.405,"body":"a lot of the church leaders fail to"},{"startTime":4737.405,"endTime":4745.025,"body":"see there is that at its core what"},{"startTime":4737.405,"endTime":4745.025,"body":"a lot of women are experiencing,"},{"startTime":4745.085,"endTime":4750.515,"body":"and I say women, it can be men, but"},{"startTime":4745.085,"endTime":4750.515,"body":"usually women is a loss of agency."},{"startTime":4751.475,"endTime":4758.975,"body":"And my ex-husband didn't need to"},{"startTime":4751.475,"endTime":4758.975,"body":"hold me down because all my life I"},{"startTime":4758.975,"endTime":4764.735,"body":"had been told that as a woman I was"},{"startTime":4758.975,"endTime":4764.735,"body":"required to submit to my husband."},{"startTime":4764.825,"endTime":4771.215,"body":"I was told that I wasn't allowed"},{"startTime":4764.825,"endTime":4771.215,"body":"to deprive him, and I believed"},{"startTime":4771.215,"endTime":4777.965,"body":"that I was disobeying God and"},{"startTime":4771.215,"endTime":4777.965,"body":"falling into sin if I did."},{"startTime":4778.655,"endTime":4783.815,"body":"So I didn't feel like I had"},{"startTime":4778.655,"endTime":4783.815,"body":"any kind of right to say no."},{"startTime":4784.775,"endTime":4789.455,"body":"When you take away someone's right to"},{"startTime":4784.775,"endTime":4789.455,"body":"say no, you don't have to be held down."},{"startTime":4789.455,"endTime":4793.115,"body":"They've, they've lost all of their agency."},{"startTime":4793.895,"endTime":4796.445,"body":"And that was where I was,"},{"startTime":4796.835,"endTime":4800.735,"body":"I I was just gonna say like, that's,"},{"startTime":4796.835,"endTime":4800.735,"body":"it's so heartbreaking, but it's profound"},{"startTime":4800.735,"endTime":4802.955,"body":"what you're saying and you know."},{"startTime":4803.615,"endTime":4807.545,"body":"What's interesting is that when I"},{"startTime":4803.615,"endTime":4807.545,"body":"think about, when we look at like"},{"startTime":4807.545,"endTime":4812.405,"body":"faith and we look at how Christ modeled"},{"startTime":4807.545,"endTime":4812.405,"body":"interactions with people, you know, what"},{"startTime":4812.405,"endTime":4817.235,"body":"your pastor did was nothing close to"},{"startTime":4812.405,"endTime":4817.235,"body":"how Christ interacted with individuals"},{"startTime":4817.235,"endTime":4818.885,"body":"and how he interacted with people."},{"startTime":4819.425,"endTime":4827.255,"body":"And it's, especially when it comes to"},{"startTime":4819.425,"endTime":4827.255,"body":"women in marriage and sex, how jaded we"},{"startTime":4827.255,"endTime":4832.235,"body":"are to our misogyny and how it influences"},{"startTime":4827.255,"endTime":4832.235,"body":"how we talk and look at other people."},{"startTime":4832.715,"endTime":4836.975,"body":"And you know, I would just say that I'm"},{"startTime":4832.715,"endTime":4836.975,"body":"saying that me to the pastors out there,"},{"startTime":4837.515,"endTime":4842.795,"body":"check your blind spots because they're"},{"startTime":4837.515,"endTime":4842.795,"body":"profound and you don't have authority"},{"startTime":4842.795,"endTime":4845.555,"body":"in these spaces because you don't know"},{"startTime":4842.795,"endTime":4845.555,"body":"what the hell you're talking about."},{"startTime":4846.095,"endTime":4851.825,"body":"And it's okay to shut up and say, I"},{"startTime":4846.095,"endTime":4851.825,"body":"need to help this person by bringing"},{"startTime":4851.825,"endTime":4858.035,"body":"in an expert instead of babbling on"},{"startTime":4851.825,"endTime":4858.035,"body":"with something that you have zero and"},{"startTime":4858.035,"endTime":4861.005,"body":"I mean zero knowledge to speak to."},{"startTime":4861.875,"endTime":4867.135,"body":"So I. I even in that statement that you"},{"startTime":4861.875,"endTime":4867.135,"body":"just made, you model like so much grace"},{"startTime":4867.135,"endTime":4869.055,"body":"about how you've handled this situation."},{"startTime":4869.055,"endTime":4873.675,"body":"And that's profound to me that in"},{"startTime":4869.055,"endTime":4873.675,"body":"the midst of all, of all the stuff"},{"startTime":4873.675,"endTime":4879.615,"body":"that you went through, you're still"},{"startTime":4873.675,"endTime":4879.615,"body":"seeking for their not only approval,"},{"startTime":4879.615,"endTime":4881.835,"body":"but their ability to see you."},{"startTime":4881.925,"endTime":4884.415,"body":"Like you're just still saying,"},{"startTime":4881.925,"endTime":4884.415,"body":"Hey, but can you please see me?"},{"startTime":4884.865,"endTime":4890.145,"body":"And you're saying it in such kind"},{"startTime":4884.865,"endTime":4890.145,"body":"ways, it, and they still don't see you."},{"startTime":4890.355,"endTime":4893.655,"body":"And, and that to me is, is"},{"startTime":4890.355,"endTime":4893.655,"body":"probably, I mean it's heartbreaking"},{"startTime":4893.655,"endTime":4895.785,"body":"for me to, to even think that."},{"startTime":4895.905,"endTime":4905.685,"body":"So I also just can't get over the fact"},{"startTime":4895.905,"endTime":4905.685,"body":"that you have years of you one thinking"},{"startTime":4905.685,"endTime":4913.695,"body":"you are the problem, but asking for him"},{"startTime":4905.685,"endTime":4913.695,"body":"to help with the marriage in general."},{"startTime":4914.145,"endTime":4916.095,"body":"Asking to go to counseling."},{"startTime":4916.395,"endTime":4922.455,"body":"You go to counseling on your own"},{"startTime":4916.395,"endTime":4922.455,"body":"for years, he shows no effort."},{"startTime":4923.179,"endTime":4931.219,"body":"Trying to show up for this marriage"},{"startTime":4923.179,"endTime":4931.219,"body":"and yet you were the one disciplined,"},{"startTime":4931.79,"endTime":4937.429,"body":"like make it make sense where like"},{"startTime":4931.79,"endTime":4937.429,"body":"what could he have said that made"},{"startTime":4937.429,"endTime":4941.84,"body":"it look like he was not wrong?"},{"startTime":4942.5,"endTime":4947.36,"body":"It's at the end of the day, I mean, and"},{"startTime":4942.5,"endTime":4947.36,"body":"I don't wanna speak in generalities,"},{"startTime":4947.36,"endTime":4952.49,"body":"but at the end of the day, it feels"},{"startTime":4947.36,"endTime":4952.49,"body":"like the evangelical church only cares"},{"startTime":4952.61,"endTime":4955.429,"body":"about who wants to stay in the marriage."},{"startTime":4955.94,"endTime":4960.41,"body":"And that's the only thing that really"},{"startTime":4955.94,"endTime":4960.41,"body":"matters with whose side they are on."},{"startTime":4960.95,"endTime":4965.719,"body":"When you come to the church, it doesn't"},{"startTime":4960.95,"endTime":4965.719,"body":"matter how long you've already been in"},{"startTime":4965.719,"endTime":4969.11,"body":"counseling up till that point, as far"},{"startTime":4965.719,"endTime":4969.11,"body":"as the church is concerned, you're on"},{"startTime":4969.11,"endTime":4971.84,"body":"day one and, and that's what happened."},{"startTime":4971.9,"endTime":4977.389,"body":"I may have been in counseling"},{"startTime":4971.9,"endTime":4977.389,"body":"myself for many years, but."},{"startTime":4977.795,"endTime":4984.635,"body":"When I show up and bring it to the pastor"},{"startTime":4977.795,"endTime":4984.635,"body":"for the first time, he's like, well,"},{"startTime":4984.845,"endTime":4986.915,"body":"all right, we're gonna get a counselor."},{"startTime":4986.975,"endTime":4990.005,"body":"We're gonna do, you know, and it's,"},{"startTime":4986.975,"endTime":4990.005,"body":"we're gonna form a commission."},{"startTime":4990.335,"endTime":4995.135,"body":"And he, and I'm expected to have the"},{"startTime":4990.335,"endTime":4995.135,"body":"same kind of endurance to bring to"},{"startTime":4995.135,"endTime":5001.345,"body":"the table on year six that I did on"},{"startTime":4995.135,"endTime":5001.345,"body":"day one, because to them it's day one."},{"startTime":5001.345,"endTime":5003.745,"body":"This is, this is them"},{"startTime":5001.345,"endTime":5003.745,"body":"just coming to the table."},{"startTime":5004.495,"endTime":5010.375,"body":"And it would be really nice if pastors"},{"startTime":5004.495,"endTime":5010.375,"body":"recognized that if someone comes"},{"startTime":5010.375,"endTime":5013.585,"body":"to you who's already been seeing a"},{"startTime":5010.375,"endTime":5013.585,"body":"professional counselor, and if they"},{"startTime":5013.585,"endTime":5016.615,"body":"have a professional counselor saying,"},{"startTime":5013.585,"endTime":5016.615,"body":"this is a destructive marriage and"},{"startTime":5016.615,"endTime":5020.545,"body":"this marriage needs to end, that they"},{"startTime":5016.615,"endTime":5020.545,"body":"take the counselor's word for it."},{"startTime":5020.905,"endTime":5025.585,"body":"That they just say like, okay,"},{"startTime":5020.905,"endTime":5025.585,"body":"she's been to counseling."},{"startTime":5025.585,"endTime":5028.165,"body":"The counselor is saying this"},{"startTime":5025.585,"endTime":5028.165,"body":"is an unhealthy marriage."},{"startTime":5028.165,"endTime":5029.245,"body":"We need to help her."},{"startTime":5029.785,"endTime":5032.095,"body":"And, and just leave it at that because."},{"startTime":5032.545,"endTime":5037.645,"body":"Then putting me or whoever in the"},{"startTime":5032.545,"endTime":5037.645,"body":"position of having to prove to"},{"startTime":5037.645,"endTime":5041.635,"body":"them that this is really serious."},{"startTime":5042.265,"endTime":5048.565,"body":"It's, it's like it's another obstacle,"},{"startTime":5042.265,"endTime":5048.565,"body":"another hoop to jump through in what"},{"startTime":5048.565,"endTime":5055.795,"body":"has already felt like an endless line"},{"startTime":5048.565,"endTime":5055.795,"body":"of hoops, and it's an added trauma to"},{"startTime":5055.795,"endTime":5059.725,"body":"have to try to convince someone that."},{"startTime":5060.144,"endTime":5064.705,"body":"You have a right to be free"},{"startTime":5060.144,"endTime":5064.705,"body":"from that kind of situation."},{"startTime":5065.004,"endTime":5070.375,"body":"So, well said again, to pastors in"},{"startTime":5065.004,"endTime":5070.375,"body":"general, it's seeing the person, right?"},{"startTime":5070.375,"endTime":5074.544,"body":"You need to see the person and all, all"},{"startTime":5070.375,"endTime":5074.544,"body":"people, you can't just look through the"},{"startTime":5074.544,"endTime":5080.125,"body":"lens of your, your, uh, you know, your"},{"startTime":5074.544,"endTime":5080.125,"body":"seminary degree that you won't admit"},{"startTime":5080.155,"endTime":5084.745,"body":"may come from a background of either"},{"startTime":5080.155,"endTime":5084.745,"body":"misogyny or racism or things like that."},{"startTime":5084.745,"endTime":5087.294,"body":"You have to look through the lens"},{"startTime":5084.745,"endTime":5087.294,"body":"of how Jesus looked through the"},{"startTime":5087.294,"endTime":5092.065,"body":"world and saw people like that"},{"startTime":5087.294,"endTime":5092.065,"body":"has to be your, your worldview."},{"startTime":5092.065,"endTime":5095.695,"body":"And if that is not your worldview,"},{"startTime":5092.065,"endTime":5095.695,"body":"that is not our problem."},{"startTime":5095.905,"endTime":5098.995,"body":"You need to do your own work"},{"startTime":5095.905,"endTime":5098.995,"body":"first before you act like you're a"},{"startTime":5098.995,"endTime":5100.825,"body":"subject matter expert on everything."},{"startTime":5100.855,"endTime":5101.575,"body":"'cause you're not."},{"startTime":5101.964,"endTime":5107.094,"body":"And if an expert is coming to"},{"startTime":5101.964,"endTime":5107.094,"body":"you with, with, with advice, with"},{"startTime":5107.275,"endTime":5111.325,"body":"knowledge based on years of working"},{"startTime":5107.275,"endTime":5111.325,"body":"with individuals and they're saying"},{"startTime":5111.325,"endTime":5115.525,"body":"X God, believe them, like see them."},{"startTime":5116.32,"endTime":5117.85,"body":"Like accept it."},{"startTime":5117.91,"endTime":5119.86,"body":"You don't have to be right all the time."},{"startTime":5120.67,"endTime":5125.2,"body":"So I would say more to that, but I think"},{"startTime":5120.67,"endTime":5125.2,"body":"what you said is just beautiful about"},{"startTime":5125.2,"endTime":5131.5,"body":"like, just see, see people, like, see the"},{"startTime":5125.2,"endTime":5131.5,"body":"situations that people are in and, and"},{"startTime":5131.5,"endTime":5134.08,"body":"don't try to just be the king over it."},{"startTime":5134.41,"endTime":5136.57,"body":"But the, the point you mentioned about."},{"startTime":5137.425,"endTime":5141.295,"body":"They're more interested in saving"},{"startTime":5137.425,"endTime":5141.295,"body":"people that want to stay in marriages."},{"startTime":5141.385,"endTime":5144.295,"body":"You know, people that will stay in"},{"startTime":5141.385,"endTime":5144.295,"body":"marriages is concerning as well."},{"startTime":5144.865,"endTime":5146.905,"body":"It's very concerning, you know?"},{"startTime":5146.905,"endTime":5146.995,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":5147.325,"endTime":5148.405,"body":"'cause what is that?"},{"startTime":5148.645,"endTime":5152.695,"body":"What is that trauma in itself when"},{"startTime":5148.645,"endTime":5152.695,"body":"we're, we're counseling people"},{"startTime":5152.695,"endTime":5155.665,"body":"to stay in marriages of marriages"},{"startTime":5152.695,"endTime":5155.665,"body":"that they should not stay in."},{"startTime":5156.205,"endTime":5156.685,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":5156.895,"endTime":5160.255,"body":"So, and what does it mean to"},{"startTime":5156.895,"endTime":5160.255,"body":"be the person that wants to"},{"startTime":5160.255,"endTime":5161.665,"body":"stay in the marriage the most?"},{"startTime":5161.665,"endTime":5162.205,"body":"The hell does that that mean"},{"startTime":5163.6,"endTime":5163.82,"body":"it?"},{"startTime":5163.825,"endTime":5168.025,"body":"It quite honestly, it means the"},{"startTime":5163.825,"endTime":5168.025,"body":"marriage is working for them the best."},{"startTime":5168.175,"endTime":5168.775,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":5168.865,"endTime":5175.675,"body":"But honestly, like you put in the"},{"startTime":5168.865,"endTime":5175.675,"body":"effort to try for your marriage."},{"startTime":5175.765,"endTime":5179.035,"body":"Like people don't do that"},{"startTime":5175.765,"endTime":5179.035,"body":"'cause they don't want to."},{"startTime":5179.605,"endTime":5184.735,"body":"I mean, at the same time you were"},{"startTime":5179.605,"endTime":5184.735,"body":"again in a situation that you were not."},{"startTime":5185.665,"endTime":5194.125,"body":"Emotionally safe or sexually safe, but"},{"startTime":5185.665,"endTime":5194.125,"body":"like you wanted help, you wanted things"},{"startTime":5194.125,"endTime":5201.595,"body":"to not be how they were your partner did"},{"startTime":5194.125,"endTime":5201.595,"body":"not who wanted the marriage more like,"},{"startTime":5202.105,"endTime":5206.395,"body":"yeah, it's definitely something"},{"startTime":5202.105,"endTime":5206.395,"body":"that I, is an issue that I think"},{"startTime":5206.395,"endTime":5207.655,"body":"the church needs to reckon with."},{"startTime":5207.655,"endTime":5211.555,"body":"One of the things that was said"},{"startTime":5207.655,"endTime":5211.555,"body":"to me in his letter, the lead"},{"startTime":5211.555,"endTime":5215.125,"body":"pastor said, you know, that part"},{"startTime":5211.555,"endTime":5215.125,"body":"of the reason I was disciplined was"},{"startTime":5215.125,"endTime":5219.415,"body":"because he had a responsibility to"},{"startTime":5215.125,"endTime":5219.415,"body":"uphold the sanctity of marriage."},{"startTime":5219.685,"endTime":5224.905,"body":"And I think that there's a huge"},{"startTime":5219.685,"endTime":5224.905,"body":"misunderstanding of what that means"},{"startTime":5224.905,"endTime":5230.395,"body":"because upholding the sanctity of marriage"},{"startTime":5224.905,"endTime":5230.395,"body":"has to be just as much about allowing."},{"startTime":5230.844,"endTime":5234.295,"body":"Destructive marriages to"},{"startTime":5230.844,"endTime":5234.295,"body":"die as they, as they are."},{"startTime":5234.295,"endTime":5237.594,"body":"Because to say that you're upholding"},{"startTime":5234.295,"endTime":5237.594,"body":"the sanctity of marriage by keeping"},{"startTime":5237.594,"endTime":5242.155,"body":"a couple, like my ex and I together"},{"startTime":5237.594,"endTime":5242.155,"body":"is saying that there is something"},{"startTime":5242.155,"endTime":5243.745,"body":"sanctified about that marriage."},{"startTime":5243.775,"endTime":5247.434,"body":"There was nothing sanctified about our"},{"startTime":5243.775,"endTime":5247.434,"body":"marriage as the time ca, you know, to"},{"startTime":5247.434,"endTime":5251.934,"body":"the end came, I don't believe there was"},{"startTime":5247.434,"endTime":5251.934,"body":"anything about our marriage that, that"},{"startTime":5251.934,"endTime":5255.535,"body":"pleased Jesus or made Jesus happy with us."},{"startTime":5255.745,"endTime":5259.045,"body":"And so in that case, the thing that"},{"startTime":5255.745,"endTime":5259.045,"body":"you can do that depends the sanctity of"},{"startTime":5259.045,"endTime":5264.655,"body":"marriage is to, to help that marriage"},{"startTime":5259.045,"endTime":5264.655,"body":"come to an end in such a way that it is"},{"startTime":5264.655,"endTime":5267.775,"body":"most peaceful and gentle on the children."},{"startTime":5268.285,"endTime":5268.615,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":5268.915,"endTime":5270.505,"body":"And we're out of, we gotta move on."},{"startTime":5270.594,"endTime":5271.674,"body":"I have something on that too."},{"startTime":5271.674,"endTime":5275.875,"body":"I may save it for later though, but"},{"startTime":5271.674,"endTime":5275.875,"body":"that was very well said, very gracious."},{"startTime":5276.295,"endTime":5282.054,"body":"Okay, so I, before we get to the"},{"startTime":5276.295,"endTime":5282.054,"body":"final questions, you know, how, how"},{"startTime":5282.054,"endTime":5284.485,"body":"are you, is there anything you'd"},{"startTime":5282.054,"endTime":5284.485,"body":"like to share about your story?"},{"startTime":5284.485,"endTime":5285.745,"body":"Anything else you wanna share?"},{"startTime":5285.745,"endTime":5287.424,"body":"And how are you doing today?"},{"startTime":5287.755,"endTime":5288.505,"body":"Currently?"},{"startTime":5288.865,"endTime":5290.184,"body":"I'm doing good today."},{"startTime":5290.335,"endTime":5294.594,"body":"I'm still working through trying to"},{"startTime":5290.335,"endTime":5294.594,"body":"correct certain things that came out"},{"startTime":5294.625,"endTime":5299.335,"body":"of the divorce settlement that were"},{"startTime":5294.625,"endTime":5299.335,"body":"not fair, which I, I don't wanna go"},{"startTime":5299.335,"endTime":5305.275,"body":"into details on that, but emotionally,"},{"startTime":5299.335,"endTime":5305.275,"body":"I am in a much healthier place for a"},{"startTime":5305.275,"endTime":5311.995,"body":"period of time, I tried to attend other"},{"startTime":5305.275,"endTime":5311.995,"body":"churches, but at this point I have decided"},{"startTime":5311.995,"endTime":5314.754,"body":"that for now I'm gonna do home church."},{"startTime":5314.815,"endTime":5320.695,"body":"So I just watch TV on Sunday, whoever"},{"startTime":5314.815,"endTime":5320.695,"body":"happens to tickle my fancy that week."},{"startTime":5321.294,"endTime":5327.924,"body":"And yeah, but the, the, the good"},{"startTime":5321.294,"endTime":5327.924,"body":"news is that Jesus has been faithful"},{"startTime":5328.525,"endTime":5336.235,"body":"and regardless of the ways that"},{"startTime":5328.525,"endTime":5336.235,"body":"I, I found the church wanting or"},{"startTime":5336.235,"endTime":5342.174,"body":"disappointing, Jesus has shown up"},{"startTime":5336.235,"endTime":5342.174,"body":"in ways that were very unexpected."},{"startTime":5342.174,"endTime":5344.605,"body":"And I feel like I love him"},{"startTime":5342.174,"endTime":5344.605,"body":"more now than I ever have."},{"startTime":5345.115,"endTime":5345.655,"body":"Beautiful."},{"startTime":5345.805,"endTime":5348.025,"body":"What would you, is there"},{"startTime":5345.805,"endTime":5348.025,"body":"anything you'd like to say?"},{"startTime":5348.025,"endTime":5350.755,"body":"Anything else you'd like"},{"startTime":5348.025,"endTime":5350.755,"body":"to say to church leaders?"},{"startTime":5350.845,"endTime":5356.425,"body":"Well believe people believe they're"},{"startTime":5350.845,"endTime":5356.425,"body":"therapists, believe they're coaches,"},{"startTime":5356.905,"endTime":5364.615,"body":"and I would say recognize that when it"},{"startTime":5356.905,"endTime":5364.615,"body":"comes to marriage, the only people who"},{"startTime":5364.615,"endTime":5367.435,"body":"really know what's happening in that"},{"startTime":5364.615,"endTime":5367.435,"body":"marriage are the two people who are in it."},{"startTime":5368.125,"endTime":5371.695,"body":"It's really easy to sit on the sidelines"},{"startTime":5368.125,"endTime":5371.695,"body":"and say, you have to stay married or you"},{"startTime":5371.695,"endTime":5374.335,"body":"can get divorced, or that kind of thing"},{"startTime":5371.695,"endTime":5374.335,"body":"when you're not the one that has to go"},{"startTime":5374.335,"endTime":5375.835,"body":"home and sleep in that bed that night."},{"startTime":5376.735,"endTime":5382.945,"body":"I love the people at my church"},{"startTime":5376.735,"endTime":5382.945,"body":"still, and it is hard for me"},{"startTime":5383.425,"endTime":5385.495,"body":"to come on and talk about this."},{"startTime":5386.005,"endTime":5393.175,"body":"I believe they are better than what"},{"startTime":5386.005,"endTime":5393.175,"body":"they have been to me, and I hope that"},{"startTime":5393.175,"endTime":5398.635,"body":"at some point, if not now, that at some"},{"startTime":5393.175,"endTime":5398.635,"body":"point they will become aware of their"},{"startTime":5398.635,"endTime":5403.675,"body":"blind spot and that they will get the"},{"startTime":5398.635,"endTime":5403.675,"body":"training and learn how to do better."},{"startTime":5404.065,"endTime":5409.974,"body":"Because they have a lot of good"},{"startTime":5404.065,"endTime":5409.974,"body":"things about them, but the way they"},{"startTime":5409.974,"endTime":5415.434,"body":"handle when a marriage goes south"},{"startTime":5409.974,"endTime":5415.434,"body":"is so unhealthy and so traumatizing."},{"startTime":5415.464,"endTime":5422.785,"body":"And, and I, I'm very discouraged"},{"startTime":5415.464,"endTime":5422.785,"body":"by what I feel to be a lack of"},{"startTime":5422.785,"endTime":5424.585,"body":"humility and self-reflection."},{"startTime":5425.035,"endTime":5425.905,"body":"So, well said."},{"startTime":5426.174,"endTime":5431.005,"body":"John, is there anything you would"},{"startTime":5426.174,"endTime":5431.005,"body":"want to say to people that find"},{"startTime":5431.005,"endTime":5436.255,"body":"themselves in situations that are"},{"startTime":5431.005,"endTime":5436.255,"body":"similar to what you experienced?"},{"startTime":5436.344,"endTime":5440.424,"body":"Especially some of you might be"},{"startTime":5436.344,"endTime":5440.424,"body":"listening to this, and for the"},{"startTime":5440.424,"endTime":5446.424,"body":"first time, hearing parts of your"},{"startTime":5440.424,"endTime":5446.424,"body":"own lived experience said out loud."},{"startTime":5447.174,"endTime":5448.674,"body":"What would you wanna say to those people?"},{"startTime":5449.184,"endTime":5454.705,"body":"I would like to say that number"},{"startTime":5449.184,"endTime":5454.705,"body":"one, Jesus is more loving than."},{"startTime":5455.17,"endTime":5459.94,"body":"You could ever imagine, and maybe"},{"startTime":5455.17,"endTime":5459.94,"body":"you're in a place where I was, where you"},{"startTime":5459.94,"endTime":5466.39,"body":"thought that if you got shunned by your"},{"startTime":5459.94,"endTime":5466.39,"body":"church or if you left your marriage,"},{"startTime":5467.05,"endTime":5469.27,"body":"that you were leaving your faith."},{"startTime":5469.87,"endTime":5472.24,"body":"And I just wanna tell"},{"startTime":5469.87,"endTime":5472.24,"body":"you that that's not true."},{"startTime":5472.81,"endTime":5478.93,"body":"Jesus has shown up for me in such profound"},{"startTime":5472.81,"endTime":5478.93,"body":"ways, and as I said, I have a greater"},{"startTime":5478.93,"endTime":5480.91,"body":"love for him now than I ever have."},{"startTime":5481.45,"endTime":5486.61,"body":"I also would wanna say, if you're staying"},{"startTime":5481.45,"endTime":5486.61,"body":"for your children, one of the shifts I"},{"startTime":5486.61,"endTime":5492.97,"body":"had to make in my perspective was instead"},{"startTime":5486.61,"endTime":5492.97,"body":"of I'm staying for my children, I had"},{"startTime":5492.97,"endTime":5494.68,"body":"to say, I'm leaving for my children."},{"startTime":5495.19,"endTime":5495.85,"body":"So that."},{"startTime":5496.375,"endTime":5500.455,"body":"They can have a healthy mom so"},{"startTime":5496.375,"endTime":5500.455,"body":"that they can see a happy mom."},{"startTime":5501.175,"endTime":5504.235,"body":"We didn't get a chance to go into"},{"startTime":5501.175,"endTime":5504.235,"body":"this in detail, but I grew up in"},{"startTime":5504.235,"endTime":5505.945,"body":"an emotionally abusive household."},{"startTime":5506.605,"endTime":5512.695,"body":"And so I think because of that, having"},{"startTime":5506.605,"endTime":5512.695,"body":"a, a detached husband, someone who"},{"startTime":5512.695,"endTime":5519.025,"body":"wasn't terribly involved and someone"},{"startTime":5512.695,"endTime":5519.025,"body":"who made demands upon their wife's body"},{"startTime":5519.595,"endTime":5522.685,"body":"felt normal because that was what I saw."},{"startTime":5523.495,"endTime":5529.585,"body":"And I love my mom and I, I I"},{"startTime":5523.495,"endTime":5529.585,"body":"love my dad, but they had severe"},{"startTime":5529.585,"endTime":5531.295,"body":"problems when in their marriage."},{"startTime":5531.385,"endTime":5536.065,"body":"And I think that it would've"},{"startTime":5531.385,"endTime":5536.065,"body":"been beneficial to me to see"},{"startTime":5536.065,"endTime":5538.015,"body":"my mother stand up for herself."},{"startTime":5538.255,"endTime":5542.335,"body":"Um, I think that would've been positive"},{"startTime":5538.255,"endTime":5542.335,"body":"and would've made me feel more freedom"},{"startTime":5542.335,"endTime":5544.195,"body":"to stand up for myself and my marriage."},{"startTime":5544.855,"endTime":5549.295,"body":"So if you're there and you're staying for"},{"startTime":5544.855,"endTime":5549.295,"body":"your kids, you can leave for your kids."},{"startTime":5550.225,"endTime":5552.745,"body":"And finally, I would just say."},{"startTime":5553.705,"endTime":5555.955,"body":"There's, there's happiness"},{"startTime":5553.705,"endTime":5555.955,"body":"on the other side."},{"startTime":5556.045,"endTime":5557.485,"body":"There's brightness on the other side."},{"startTime":5558.115,"endTime":5558.895,"body":"It gets better."},{"startTime":5559.375,"endTime":5560.005,"body":"I love that."},{"startTime":5560.275,"endTime":5561.145,"body":"Thank you for that."},{"startTime":5561.565,"endTime":5569.695,"body":"And for pastors or church leaders"},{"startTime":5561.565,"endTime":5569.695,"body":"listening, I think so often the church is"},{"startTime":5569.695,"endTime":5575.845,"body":"conditioned to respond to hearing things"},{"startTime":5569.695,"endTime":5575.845,"body":"like what Jay said or what Joyce said"},{"startTime":5576.295,"endTime":5582.775,"body":"as criticism, like unhealthy criticism"},{"startTime":5576.295,"endTime":5582.775,"body":"or you're, you don't have the freedom"},{"startTime":5582.775,"endTime":5587.725,"body":"to not have all the answers, but it's"},{"startTime":5582.775,"endTime":5587.725,"body":"actually good and freeing for you to"},{"startTime":5587.725,"endTime":5593.065,"body":"admit you don't have all the answers"},{"startTime":5587.725,"endTime":5593.065,"body":"and to bring in experts when needed."},{"startTime":5593.125,"endTime":5600.745,"body":"And I hope that through hearing Joyce's"},{"startTime":5593.125,"endTime":5600.745,"body":"story, that some of you will start"},{"startTime":5600.745,"endTime":5605.215,"body":"to really consider the ways that we"},{"startTime":5600.745,"endTime":5605.215,"body":"talk about marriage and that we talk"},{"startTime":5605.215,"endTime":5607.825,"body":"about sex and that we talk about."},{"startTime":5608.62,"endTime":5615.19,"body":"Manhood and womanhood because"},{"startTime":5608.62,"endTime":5615.19,"body":"how you preach about these topics"},{"startTime":5615.55,"endTime":5621.73,"body":"is directly affecting marriages,"},{"startTime":5615.55,"endTime":5621.73,"body":"either positively or negatively."},{"startTime":5621.79,"endTime":5628.48,"body":"And some of the messages that kept"},{"startTime":5621.79,"endTime":5628.48,"body":"Joyce in a marriage that was extremely"},{"startTime":5628.48,"endTime":5635.89,"body":"unhealthy for her were baked into her"},{"startTime":5628.48,"endTime":5635.89,"body":"through the preaching and discussions"},{"startTime":5635.89,"endTime":5639.01,"body":"surrounding women sex and marriage."},{"startTime":5639.58,"endTime":5647.32,"body":"So I exhort to you, encourage you"},{"startTime":5639.58,"endTime":5647.32,"body":"to listen to this story and to"},{"startTime":5647.32,"endTime":5654.67,"body":"allow it to broaden your perspective"},{"startTime":5647.32,"endTime":5654.67,"body":"and broaden the ways that you can"},{"startTime":5654.7,"endTime":5658.96,"body":"shepherd and care for the people"},{"startTime":5654.7,"endTime":5658.96,"body":"that have been entrusted to you."},{"startTime":5668.575,"endTime":5672.565,"body":"Since the recording of Joyce's story,"},{"startTime":5668.575,"endTime":5672.565,"body":"she attended a presbytery meeting in"},{"startTime":5672.565,"endTime":5676.825,"body":"which she hoped to address the private"},{"startTime":5672.565,"endTime":5676.825,"body":"nature of the apology she received."},{"startTime":5677.335,"endTime":5682.195,"body":"She was not allowed to speak but she had"},{"startTime":5677.335,"endTime":5682.195,"body":"prepared a statement, so we are gonna read"},{"startTime":5682.195,"endTime":5684.264,"body":"that statement to wrap up this episode."},{"startTime":5687.594,"endTime":5688.585,"body":"Good afternoon brothers."},{"startTime":5689.32,"endTime":5693.01,"body":"For many looks at the outward appearance,"},{"startTime":5689.32,"endTime":5693.01,"body":"but the Lord looks at the heart."},{"startTime":5693.7,"endTime":5696.28,"body":"What does our Lord see when"},{"startTime":5693.7,"endTime":5696.28,"body":"he looks at this apology?"},{"startTime":5696.849,"endTime":5700.96,"body":"If Rio writes me a better letter, if"},{"startTime":5696.849,"endTime":5700.96,"body":"they do a better job at pretending to be"},{"startTime":5700.96,"endTime":5703.3,"body":"sorrowful, will Christ be more pleased?"},{"startTime":5704.019,"endTime":5709.18,"body":"You see, this case was never about rules"},{"startTime":5704.019,"endTime":5709.18,"body":"or procedures or policies or apologies."},{"startTime":5709.84,"endTime":5712.72,"body":"I was emotionally abandoned"},{"startTime":5709.84,"endTime":5712.72,"body":"and sexually assaulted in my"},{"startTime":5712.72,"endTime":5714.37,"body":"marriage for over a decade."},{"startTime":5714.82,"endTime":5718.39,"body":"And when I came to my pastors,"},{"startTime":5714.82,"endTime":5718.39,"body":"my shepherds seeking relief, they"},{"startTime":5718.39,"endTime":5721.75,"body":"punished me and they empowered"},{"startTime":5718.39,"endTime":5721.75,"body":"the one who was hurting me."},{"startTime":5722.29,"endTime":5723.97,"body":"That is not the heart of Jesus."},{"startTime":5724.99,"endTime":5727.93,"body":"As I have gone through the church"},{"startTime":5724.99,"endTime":5727.93,"body":"court process, two things have"},{"startTime":5727.93,"endTime":5730.03,"body":"grieved me more than any others."},{"startTime":5730.36,"endTime":5733.96,"body":"First, that there is far more"},{"startTime":5730.36,"endTime":5733.96,"body":"emphasis on procedure than on"},{"startTime":5733.96,"endTime":5735.49,"body":"mirroring the heart of Christ."},{"startTime":5736.09,"endTime":5740.05,"body":"And second, that the laypeople"},{"startTime":5736.09,"endTime":5740.05,"body":"in the congregation have no idea"},{"startTime":5740.05,"endTime":5742.63,"body":"what their leaders are doing or"},{"startTime":5740.05,"endTime":5742.63,"body":"knowledge of their own rights."},{"startTime":5743.889,"endTime":5747.849,"body":"Rio wants to say that my censure was"},{"startTime":5743.889,"endTime":5747.849,"body":"private, but that is not truthful."},{"startTime":5748.48,"endTime":5752.049,"body":"I can't tell you how many members"},{"startTime":5748.48,"endTime":5752.049,"body":"of the congregation, over the"},{"startTime":5752.049,"endTime":5756.099,"body":"course of my censure asked why I"},{"startTime":5752.049,"endTime":5756.099,"body":"was no longer on the worship team."},{"startTime":5756.429,"endTime":5757.719,"body":"What was I supposed to say to that?"},{"startTime":5758.11,"endTime":5760.87,"body":"That I was assaulted by my"},{"startTime":5758.11,"endTime":5760.87,"body":"husband and when I sought a"},{"startTime":5761.08,"endTime":5762.429,"body":"divorce, they disciplined me."},{"startTime":5763.059,"endTime":5764.379,"body":"That is not what I said."},{"startTime":5764.44,"endTime":5766.48,"body":"I carried that shame within myself."},{"startTime":5767.139,"endTime":5771.219,"body":"I protected the shepherds who were"},{"startTime":5767.139,"endTime":5771.219,"body":"supposed to protect me when I did not"},{"startTime":5771.219,"endTime":5775.33,"body":"rise to receive communion, and my own"},{"startTime":5771.219,"endTime":5775.33,"body":"children questioned why I did not partake."},{"startTime":5775.719,"endTime":5778.15,"body":"I carried the shame that"},{"startTime":5775.719,"endTime":5778.15,"body":"did not belong to me."},{"startTime":5779.259,"endTime":5783.49,"body":"Another private apology does not change"},{"startTime":5779.259,"endTime":5783.49,"body":"the hearts that saw fit to shame me."},{"startTime":5784.21,"endTime":5786.82,"body":"A public apology is not about the apology."},{"startTime":5787.465,"endTime":5789.775,"body":"The heart of man cannot be legislated."},{"startTime":5789.985,"endTime":5792.355,"body":"A public apology is about"},{"startTime":5789.985,"endTime":5792.355,"body":"the care of the sheep."},{"startTime":5792.955,"endTime":5796.675,"body":"The recommendation of training and"},{"startTime":5792.955,"endTime":5796.675,"body":"advocacy is about the care of the sheep."},{"startTime":5797.425,"endTime":5800.815,"body":"It is so the congregation will"},{"startTime":5797.425,"endTime":5800.815,"body":"know that if they find themselves"},{"startTime":5800.815,"endTime":5804.835,"body":"in a similar situation to my own,"},{"startTime":5800.815,"endTime":5804.835,"body":"they deserve to be cared for,"},{"startTime":5805.075,"endTime":5806.934,"body":"and if they are not, it is wrong."},{"startTime":5807.804,"endTime":5812.695,"body":"Therefore, I ask the presbytery to be"},{"startTime":5807.804,"endTime":5812.695,"body":"the shepherds that my own elders were"},{"startTime":5812.695,"endTime":5817.855,"body":"not admonish the church to make a public"},{"startTime":5812.695,"endTime":5817.855,"body":"apology and restore my good name within"},{"startTime":5817.855,"endTime":5821.394,"body":"the congregation, and recommend that"},{"startTime":5817.855,"endTime":5821.394,"body":"they seek training in accordance with"},{"startTime":5821.394,"endTime":5826.045,"body":"the guidelines set forth in the DASA"},{"startTime":5821.394,"endTime":5826.045,"body":"report presented at the 2022 PCA general"},{"startTime":5826.045,"endTime":5830.365,"body":"assembly so that future congregants"},{"startTime":5826.045,"endTime":5830.365,"body":"will receive the care that I did not."},{"startTime":5830.755,"endTime":5831.205,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":5832.9,"endTime":5837.775,"body":"For Jake Coyle, I'm Jonna Harris, and this"},{"startTime":5832.9,"endTime":5837.775,"body":"has been The Body Behind the Bus Podcast,"},{"startTime":5867.07,"endTime":5869.32,"body":"the views, thoughts,"},{"startTime":5867.07,"endTime":5869.32,"body":"and opinions expressed."},{"startTime":5869.32,"endTime":5872.98,"body":"Here are the speaker zone and"},{"startTime":5869.32,"endTime":5872.98,"body":"not those of this podcast."},{"startTime":5873.04,"endTime":5876.28,"body":"This content is presented for"},{"startTime":5873.04,"endTime":5876.28,"body":"informational and educational"},{"startTime":5876.28,"endTime":5880.84,"body":"purposes that constitute fair"},{"startTime":5876.28,"endTime":5880.84,"body":"use, commentary or criticism."},{"startTime":5881.32,"endTime":5884.53,"body":"While we make every effort to ensure"},{"startTime":5881.32,"endTime":5884.53,"body":"that the information shared is"},{"startTime":5884.53,"endTime":5888.015,"body":"accurate, we welcome any comment,"},{"startTime":5884.53,"endTime":5888.015,"body":"suggestion, or correction of errors."}]}