From Police Sergeant To Soulful Coach: What Love Demands In Hard Moments with Michael Graham

What if addiction isn’t about the substance, but the pain it numbs—and the patterns we learned to survive? We sit down with Michael Graham—retired police sergeant, former SWAT sniper, actor, and transformational coach—to explore how identity, faith, and disciplined love can transform the hardest moments. From early career missteps and a costly lie to a full-throttle return to integrity, Michael shows how separating who you are from what you did opens the door to repair, recovery, and real leadership.

The conversation stretches from behavior science to spiritual practice. We unpack how patterns like control, perfectionism, and martyrdom keep us stuck; why awareness without judgment is the first step; and how to design identity through daily “votes” that align actions with values. Michael shares the routines that kept him capable under pressure—body, mind, and spirit reps—and how the same repetition strengthens compassion as a practical skill. If the word “God” makes you recoil, you’ll still find an accessible path: one word for the day, one action that proves it true, repeated until it sticks.

Then comes the moment that ties it all together: a hostage standoff on the Santa Monica Pier, a sniper’s green light, and a surrender measured in pounds of finger pressure. Michael holds two truths in his scope—a man responsible for violence and a human made in the image of God, the son of a mother on scene. He doesn’t take the shot. It’s a masterclass in strength guided by love, the kind of choice that protects others without losing your soul.

Walk away with a simple practice that changes everything: ask, “What would love have me do?” Use it in a meeting, at home, or in your own self-talk. If this conversation moved you, subscribe, share it with someone who needs it, and leave a review to help more listeners find the show.

To book a FREE discovery call with Dr. Harte, click the link below:

https://calendly.com/drharte/free-discovery-call-w-dr-harte

To contact Michael Graham, click the link below!

https://mindsetmattersconsulting.com/contact/

Chapters

• 0:00 New Studio And Guest Intro
• 3:30 Redefining Addiction Beyond Substances
• 8:40 Patterns, Behavior Change, And Survival
• 12:40 Law Enforcement Lens On Pain
• 18:10 What Is Addiction Really
• 23:00 Shame, Guilt, And Returning To Truth
• 31:30 Faith, Identity, And Repair
• 39:30 Practical Identity Work And Repetition
• 47:20 Body, Mind, Spirit As One System
• 54:20 The Hostage Story: Love Under Pressure
• 1:07:30 Leadership, Compassion, And Strength
• 1:15:00 What Would Love Have Me Do
• 1:20:00 Where To Find Michael Graham

Transcript

SPEAKER_05: 0:15

Welcome back, everybody, to the truth about addiction. I just had a serious upgrade, as you can see. So anybody who's been following me on my podcast since 2022, I have been doing them virtually from the comfort of my own home. And now I'm in this beautiful studio. So you're welcome. We're all gonna get lifted up together. But what I'm actually excited about is the person that I'm here with, who you'll meet in a moment. I have known this man for, we were just trying to figure out 16-ish years. And the nature of our relationship has shifted and evolved over time. He actually came to me way back in my early PT career with an injury. And now he's a client of mine. And we're not just doing body stuff, we're doing spiritual work, we're doing strategic coaching, and it's the most amazing thing. So let me just tell you about this man. His name is Michael Graham. He worked as an officer for the Santa Monica Police Department for 27 years, to be exact. And maybe we'll get into why it's not 28, literally, later. And for 16 of those, he was a sergeant. So no big deal. I'm sitting next to a retired sergeant. He also has a professional acting background, which he got into after his years in the police force, which I find just so fascinating. It's not just an industry you enter and enter successfully, but he did. And today he's in the transformational coaching space and getting into public speaking. So I cannot wait for you to meet this man, Michael Graham. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_04: 2:00

Thank you, Dr. Sam. Samantha Hart.

SPEAKER_05: 2:03

I know. I love this whole Dr. Sam thing. Everybody, okay, I'm a recovering everything. You know I'm a recovering addict. This is about the truth about addiction, but I'm a recovering. I don't know where's the scroll. I'm a recovering perfectionist. I'm a recovering people pleaser. And when people would ask me for so many years of my life, what do you want to be called? You know, do you like Sam? Do you like Samantha? You know, I'd always say, Oh, just, you know, oh, just call me Sam. Because it just felt so safe. Samantha felt kind of formal and God forbid I intimidated you with my power and my essence. And now I'm like, let's marry the two things because now I can stand in who I am. So that's great. You better believe there's a doctor in front of my name for a reason, but you can still call me Sam.

SPEAKER_04: 2:49

Thank you, Sam.

SPEAKER_05: 2:51

So, Dr. Sam, it is, you guys, in case you weren't sure what to call me.

SPEAKER_04: 2:55

I love calling you Dr. Sam.

SPEAKER_05: 2:57

It's good.

SPEAKER_04: 2:58

All of my texts now are to Dr. Sam.

SPEAKER_05: 3:00

I love it. I love that you're here.

SPEAKER_04: 3:02

Thank you for having me. It's an honor.

SPEAKER_05: 3:05

It's it's an honor for me too, always to be around you. And you know, it's so interesting because when I started this podcast, the initial conversations that I was having with people were people who I knew from recovery. And so we were sifting through the mud about you know how we define addiction and what does it mean to recover? What does it mean to live an emotionally sober life? That part is still very much a part of the conversation. But now, all these years later, certainly all these years into my own sobriety and personal development journey, the framework of what I get to talk about on the show has evolved in correspondence to my own evolution, right? So you're not a person who has a history of addiction. Right. So then the question is well, that's great that you want me on your show, Sam. But what a what in God's name are we gonna talk about? Why am I here?

SPEAKER_02: 4:02

Why am I here?

SPEAKER_05: 4:03

So so let's just start with a few things, right? One is that I bet you if I if I asked you the question, have you ever known, cared for, or loved somebody who struggles with addiction, you'd say yes.

SPEAKER_04: 4:19

Absolutely. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 4:20

So there's that.

SPEAKER_04: 4:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 4:22

And because I come from a family of addicts, I also know what it's like to sit in that seat. And there's a lot to talk about. But then beyond the veil of substance abuse, you know, I'm in the business of helping people overcome emotional cycles of addiction and dysfunction. And if we want to be scientific about that and less, you know, alcoholic about it, what are we really talking about? We're talking about the science of behavior change. We're talking about pattern recognition. We're talking about getting out from under patterns that we probably learned when we were younger for survival that helped us feel safe and into patterns that are actually going to get us closer toward our dreams. So maybe the pattern is fear. Maybe it is control. Maybe it is martyrdom. And I'll be really curious today as we talk what types of patterns we unpack that you've recognized because you're on a personal development journey too. You wouldn't be a coach, right? And you've also seen a lot of things as a cop. What you've uncovered, not just about your own life, but in the work you've done in the world. I can only imagine what you've seen on the job and the patterns of dysfunction and addiction you've bumped up against. And so sifting through some of those stories and how you were able to show up in the face of that presentation, all of that stuff is worthy of conversation and can be helpful to somebody who's listening. So that's what this is about.

SPEAKER_04: 6:03

Well, cool. I'm excited. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_05: 6:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 6:06

I love talking to you.

SPEAKER_02: 6:08

I love talking to you.

SPEAKER_04: 6:08

And I'm always amazed at the questions you ask and how how well you listen. I mean, I've I've been to many of your shows. I've been on stage with you a couple of times. And my wife and I, we talk about you afterwards and just about how what an astute listener you are and what you draw out of people. And I I I love going to your shows and just sitting in the audience because it's amazing to hear what you you know, what you ask and what you pick up. And then even when we work together in our own work, um, it's amazing. I love the nuggets that you hear me say.

SPEAKER_02: 6:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 6:50

And you go, Did you hear that? I go, no, what? And you go, that was it. And like, what was it?

SPEAKER_05: 6:56

What was it? What was it?

SPEAKER_04: 6:58

So anyway, I appreciate you a lot.

SPEAKER_05: 7:00

I love you, and I appreciate you too. So let's just start with the fact that you said yes to the very first part of this, you know, whether you know or love or care for somebody who's suffering from addiction. Can you tell me what came to mind when I asked you that, or who came to mind, or a story behind that?

SPEAKER_04: 7:19

You know, um certainly as a police officer and then as a police supervisor, supervising crime scenes, supervising situations in the field, looking after my people, the officers, and then supervising them on their journey, dealing with uh the job and the stress of the job. You know, probably my law enforcement career and just a whole bunch of cases, you know, where situations come to mind. Um, you know, I another gentleman came to mind that um you know that took his life a few years ago. Um not necessarily because of a of a substance addiction that I'm aware of, but an but a depression and reg, you know, associated stuff due to you know the pressures of owning his own company and multiple companies and stuff, you know, and and um anyway, he popped in my head, but otherwise just lots of faces that I interacted with and had a res had a responsibility and an opportunity to respond to in the field because of people's conditions were causing them to act out in a behavior, and sometimes that behavior became harmful to other people or or illegal, and the police were called and and I was there, you know. So then you then you you break it down and you take it from there to get people help.

SPEAKER_05: 8:59

That's right. So let me ask you this in response to that. What is your understanding of addiction? How would you explain it?

SPEAKER_04: 9:12

Would have been good if you prepped me for this one. No, I'm just I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_05: 9:16

No prep allowed on this show.

SPEAKER_04: 9:19

You know, uh, I suppose what comes to mind is um, you know, on some level, people in some type of pain or fear and seeking a an out, seeking a relief, um something that makes them feel better, and and that because of, I suppose, the underlying pain or condition or situation or whatever that is, um, you know, that um that seeking that pain relief becomes now, you know, something that's uh no longer a healthy response, but it's one that that allows them to um disappear and then sometimes then it you know it it rolls into when the addiction gets to a a worse place or a more painful place, um you know, it then it can it can be a little bit more out of control, causing uh harm and injury to them, causing harm and injury to the people that they work with, and the certainly the people in their family at home that love them.

SPEAKER_05: 10:35

What a what an unbelievable answer. I'm not surprised that you answered that way, but I just need you to know how rare that is. There's a man, he's an he's an MD, a psychiatrist, world-renowned speaker and author, and he's quite old. I don't know if you've heard of him. His name is Gabor Mate. And this whole business in recovery, right? I've gone in and out of 12-step rooms, and uh, to be honest, I don't go to them that much anymore. I just don't get out of it what I'm looking for in terms of access to God consciousness, which we're gonna get into.

SPEAKER_04: 11:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_05: 11:16

Oh yeah. But this man doesn't believe that addiction or alcoholism is a disease. You know, he says to people don't ask why the addiction, ask why the pain. And and so few of us do that. You know, we're just above the surface of what hurts all the time, right? Right? And God forbid we go below it, God forbid we stop standing in judgment and saying, how could look at them? This is disgusting. How could they, how could they do that? How could they say that? How could they live this way, right? Well, we don't we don't come out choosing to do that, right? Usually there's such an unrelenting suffering. There is a pain that is begging to be anesthetized, right? And addiction becomes a solution to the problem that is pain, right? And so in the healing process, the question becomes not why the pain only, but how can I help you through that? What do you need right now? Because I know it's not judgment. And so the first part of the next question to you is have you always had, let's just say on the job as a policeman, the ability to understand that. And when I say addiction, in the context of this conversation, I also want to say addiction, violence, rage, illegal acts, all the things that you see that I believe fall under this umbrella of I'm acting out because underneath it I'm actually in a ton of pain. Did you always have the ability to see as a policeman through the insanity of the situation you had to walk into, the underbelly of it? Or did something happen along the way that made you go, wait a second, this is a child of God. I'm forgetting.

SPEAKER_04: 13:34

It's a progression, I suppose. You know, I mean, I feel like I'm a lifelong student. I'm still learning, I'm still studying, I'm seeking more knowledge, more wisdom, learning to seeking to apply the knowledge that I have in wise ways. Um I'm very fortunate and very blessed. Um I grew up in a in what on some level a stable home with both my parents in the home, at least until after I went to college. They eventually later divorced. But um I had the love and support of both my parents and both sets of grandparents. Um both grandfathers had been pastors, not during my life, but before my life. But that was my whole family's full of pastors. I thought I was gonna be a pastor, you know, and may I'm not dead yet, so maybe I still will be someday.

SPEAKER_05: 14:35

Amazing pastor.

SPEAKER_04: 14:36

Thank you. Um anyway, so being a part of the church, being a part of a family that was intentional and attentive. And you know this about me. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna paint the barn door red using a country folk term. Um, you know how emotional I get. And I've it's one of the things I don't love about me, but I'm always encouraged. People always say nice things. But, anyways, I never ever get teary-eyed about things that make me sad. I rarely I don't say I really get sad, but I don't get teary-eyed about things that make me sad. Sometimes I get teary-eyed or quiver voice on things that touch me or move me. So I'm just gonna put that out there now because I feel I feel like it's coming. I feel like it's coming.

SPEAKER_05: 15:27

Definitely coming. Also, I should have warned the audience because I meant to, you know, in the intro. You guys, between the two of us, because I'm like four seconds away from getting my period, so I'm super emotional.

SPEAKER_00: 15:39

Oh no.

SPEAKER_05: 15:40

And between between that and Michael, just get your Kleenex, like just press the pause button right now and find whatever piece of paper you can blow your nose in, you're gonna need it.

unknown: 15:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_05: 15:52

So great. It's all out on the table now.

SPEAKER_04: 15:55

Okay, cool, awesome. So, anyway, you know, I uh I went into law enforcement um with maybe even a shepherd's heart, if you will, you know, like people would say, a pastor of a congregation of a church. I care, I cared, I do care still. I still love people. I made it through, you know, 27 plus one, 28 years uh in law enforcement. And um I still love people, and I'm still so grateful that I had the opportunity, the privilege of doing the job. Um, but I do know because I've lived it, I do know how cops can run up against painful things that that sometimes want to rob that joy or that love for people for the reasons that they got into it. So anyway, I came into it with um a pretty good uh perspective and self-worth, self-identity knowledge. I didn't, I wasn't trying to find myself as a cop. I knew who I was, I knew what my values were, I knew what my beliefs were, I knew what my faith in God was and is. And so those things I think are crucial so that it helped they ground you, you know. And so then as I went about my career and my job and my day and day-to-day-to-day, with going from one call to one call to one call to the next call of people suffering and hurting in situations, I um also went with a heart of compassion and love and um intention to find remedy, true remedy. A small caveat, I'm not perfect. I made mistakes, and then you learn from your mistakes, you know, and I learned, and so I feel like those, you know, those stones that are at the at the bottom of the river, at the at the at the end of the river, that are all smooth are because they bumped up against so many things, you know, and and broke off all their rough edges. Not that I'm a smooth stone, but I've bumped up a lot of against a lot of things. And as a result, it's given me a smoothness as well as maybe better understanding and clarity um you know, for stuff for people. And and as I see as I go, boy, I could just so easily be in that person's situation, but I'm not. You know, what is that? What's that verse or whatever? There go I, you know, if if for yeah, you know, if something else there, I would I would be there too. And I just tried to recognize that that I'm in the blue uniform behind the badge, coming to serve, but I'm not better. I'm just here to help. And and now what I and how would they offer the things that I can see or say or do to help provide some sanity and some understanding and some education and some support. I also needed to look inward and make sure I was participating in those same types of structures so that I could stay as a helper and not somebody who needed who wasn't spinning out of control.

SPEAKER_05: 19:24

Yes, yes. Oh, you're you're saying so much. I have uh just a list of uh uh follow-up questions that I have for you. So so part of what I'm hearing you say, which certainly is different than my my lived experience, is that you came from a pretty stable base.

SPEAKER_04: 19:46

I think so.

SPEAKER_05: 19:47

Okay, right. Which which is all that matters. We're talking about, you know, the understanding of your life, right? So even if somebody else looked at it, it it doesn't matter, right? So so there were some imprints that were left on your Nervous system that helped perhaps set you up, right? To stay more open.

SPEAKER_04: 20:05

Right.

SPEAKER_05: 20:07

And also, it sounds like you've had God in your life for as long as you can remember. Absolutely. So those two things right away are in direct opposition to me. I mean absolute chaos and dysfunction in my house and absolutely no God. Right. Okay. You also said, and I'm glad you said it, the rock imagery, which I really love. Like we need to, we need to work that in to the story, right? Because it's an expression of what's real and true and part of our human humanity, no matter how godly of a man you might be, right? And how we learn, right? And I have a client right now who so badly wants to stay in the plane of inspiration, you know, close to God at all times. And and I love that that he wants that. But when he doesn't feel it and he's disconnected, it's as if something is wrong with him, right? What's the secret to staying in close communion, you know? And you know, we talked through that, and I said, I'm not sure that's the point. I'm not sure. We would be one with God. We would be just like God if we were always like God, if we always felt like God and acted like God. We I think our job here is to strive to become one with. And I think every 24 hours we get a reset, you know, and and there's no real guarantee. And I think the whole idea spiritually of why we're here is to keep smoothing out the rocks. So, first, because you're gonna tell me two different stories now, and in between the two stories, I want to, you know, be able to respond and interject. But first, I want to hear, because I never have, and I also want you to get into the practice of storytelling. I want you to tell me a story of when the rocks were tossing through the river and the edges were sharp, and you weren't at your very best, and you slid back from a place of love and compassion, and felt a little distance, maybe between you and God, in a tough, tough moment, perhaps on the job, maybe it's in your personal life. But you gave that analogy for a reason because you said, I'm not perfect. Listen, there's been times I want to know a time that you're talking about and what you learned from it, and how you returned to God, and then I want you to share the hostage story with everybody.

SPEAKER_04: 22:55

Okay, no pressure, no pressure. Well, you know, I think the one of the worst moments in my career. I don't really want to share this, but I know you're all about honesty and truth and all that stuff. Um, you know, uh it probably in my it was in my second year on the department. Um, you know, Santa Monica, I worked in Santa Monica, we I think you mentioned in uh I went to the academy in 1987. I graduated early in 1988. And um, you know, there were a lot of homeless folks. There's still a lot of homeless folks, you know, but there were and and that creates that living condition, that situation. And, you know, you've got ones that don't negatively impact people and businesses and families and children and stuff, and then you have others that dramatically and dangerously impact people. And anyway, long story short, I responded to a complaint of a business down by the beach with a guy living in the door, his doorway, and all of his you know, household full of stuff in the doorway, and the defecation, urination, and the presence and the and the outbursts, and the all that, all the stuff that goes into um a mental illness expression with the potential for violence and all of that. So I was a new cop. I was off probation, uh, which is probably why I didn't get fired. Um, but I went down there and I went down there every you know, every day. I'm dealing with this guy. Come on, you need a move, you need a move, you need to move. And you know, every every he would always be back. So one time I decided you're crazy. I can be crazy too. You know, I can be crazier than you and stand frickin' by. And I pulled out my baton, I didn't hurt him or hit to even touch him, but I banged the side of the wall, I banged the. I said, You better get your stuff out of here. You better, you know, I was I was very threatening. And um what's amazing is many homeless people come from very successful or financially well-off families. So he went high-taling it back to mom in town, who is, you know, very came from a very wealthy family. He just had a mentalness and was choosing to live on the street in a way that did negatively impact a lot of people's lives and this specific business. Anyway, so the mom came in and she complained about my aggression. Again, I there's nothing physical to him, but it was I I had a little Tasmanian double rage. Yep, you know, this can be you next time type of thing. Yep. And so um the person, the person in charge of internal affairs happened to be walking through the hallway with her, and he goes, Well, that doesn't sound like Mike, because that doesn't sound like me. And so he just hit me up in the hallway without any, you know, Libarger and any questions and any reading my rights and any he just hit me up in the hallway, which he shouldn't have done. But anyway, he did, and I lied. I said, No, I didn't do that, I didn't say that, you know, and and that was not who that was not any part of my core, yep, but that's what I did in the moment, yep, at 24 years old. And um, so you know, then later he brought me back in, you know, for the official interview, and then I stuck to my story. And then I went on vacation, and I just thought, you know, it's not worth it. Who I am now tear up. Who I am is more important than what I do.

SPEAKER_02: 27:04

Oh.

SPEAKER_04: 27:06

And so wrote out a really nice letter and um explained what happened, and explained that what I had said was not the truth, and that's not who I am. That's not who they hired me to be. And I realized that um that I wanted to come clean, um, and then I was willing to accept uh whatever the department thought was the appropriate um consequence, up to and including termination. And I figured I was gonna lose my job because I lied. Cops can't lie, cops have to be trustworthy. I never lied on the stand, but I did lie in that one, in this one instance, and that was and that was a turning point. And um later, you know, uh, so I I I got a you know, a written recommend. I got you know, I got uh some punishment for it, but thankfully I didn't lose my job. But it did teach me a lesson that I never that I learned from, and I never uh I never uh did that again. Being true to who I who my my my core values as a person, as a police officer, as Michael Graham, God's son, a Christian, um, was most important. And I wasn't gonna deviate to fit in. I wasn't gonna deviate just to solve a case. I wasn't gonna deviate for any reason. I wasn't gonna be true to my values and and the expectation that I had for my life, and that I believe God had for my life, as well as the department, my parents, and everybody who cares for me wants me to be the right person. So anyway, that was a huge learning experience. Um, it was very difficult, heartfelt, and I really did think I was confessing to lose my job.

SPEAKER_05: 29:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 29:12

But worked out.

SPEAKER_05: 29:14

I love that story, Michael. And I always think it's interesting when we hesitate to tell a hard story. I wonder what that is. And sometimes it's good not to share if we're still working through something. It's better to wait until we're on the other side of it. But if we're far on the other side and we still don't want to share, you know, it's it's interesting because then what is it touching when we do? You know, and is it activating shame and right? Like, and so to have you to force you right now, well, you didn't really force me, but you know, to have you work through that in real time. The reason I want to know that is because if somebody comes on this show and they tell me how good everything is, okay, how close to God they are, how well or how often they can redirect their mind from fear to love, you know, from worry to certainty. That's amazing. But it doesn't help the person who's in the dark, yeah. And that's who I'm interested in helping. Because I know the second we get to God and we stay there in this conversation, that's what it's gonna be like. It's gonna be all love, all miracles. But before someone who's listening is gonna feel any of that, we have to get honest about this part. Yeah. The shit, the ugly, the lying, the fracturing from self. Because this is the exact moment I look for, right? You're not an addict, I'm an addict, I'm a recovering addict. What happened to me that made me get into so much pain that eventually I became addicted. I split from myself. And when I say myself, I'm also talking about God. Because the best part of who I am is who God is. There is a splitting from self that I had to learn to stay in proximity to my caregivers. That was the beginning of a shame spiral that almost killed me. You also just described a split from self. You behaved in a way that wasn't true to your divine nature, and then you did something on top of that to stay separated, and then you felt horrible and you had a lot of pain, just like I did eventually when I was so separate from myself that it became unbearable. And then you found your way back. So, see, you know, the you and I are not that different, right? The addict and the non-addict are not that different after all, right? And that's why we have these conversations, that's why we get into the pit of despair. And and I want to ask a little more because again, you know, I'm thinking about the listener who cannot find their way forward right now, who is the the rough rock tumbling through the river, who is deep in behavior that is out of their nature, and they're trying to keep up with it now. Well, now you did it, now you said it, now you have to lie about it. Now you know, now you're you just you have an image to uphold. Something happened after you lied and before you told the truth that made you go, I gotta confess, I don't want to live this way. I am not becoming a liar. I am a good man, a good, honest man who told a lie. And that is different. And there has been so much research on this. I remember reading one of Brene Brown's books, where she distinguished the difference between guilt and shame. And it was so important that I understood that, right? Because it changed not just how I spoke to myself, it changed how I parented, it changes how I coach people. Because I've said this before, I think shame is the number one offender. When we are ashamed of something, we become the person who did that thing. So you didn't just lie, you're a liar. What you did in the space between the lie and the truth is you moved from shame to guilt. And then there was hope. You said, wait a second. I told a lie. But I'm not a liar. I'm not the son of that behavior. It's just a thing I did. And it sucks that I did it. But I'm gonna stand in the identity that is most resonant, which is that I'm a good man who made a bad choice. And every addict and everybody suffering on earth who's made a bunch of bad decisions, if they don't know that to be fundamentally true, oh god, shame is gonna swallow them whole. And that's when all the bad decisions come in. How did you separate what you did from who you are? How did you do that?

SPEAKER_04: 35:23

Well, I think it's being clear on who you are and who you want to be.

SPEAKER_05: 35:32

Um you were 24. How did you have the skills and the tools to find your way back after that to who you were to then quickly go back to the police and your staff and your supervisors and tell the truth? How did you do that?

SPEAKER_04: 36:00

That just seemed like the right thing to do, you know.

SPEAKER_05: 36:03

For me, were you sitting with yourself and feeling awful? Were you was there a feeling of in your body, was there a narrative in your mind that was so unpalatable regarding guilt or regret or shame that you just went, enough? This isn't who I am. I'm just gonna tell the truth. I know I'll feel better if I do, just no matter what the consequence is. Something must have you right because that discomfort had to get so big for you to tell the truth. Sometimes the discomfort gets so big that you put a fucking needle in your arm and you shoot heroin. And we hope in our journey back to ourselves that it's more like what you did. And so I want the person who's not face down in an addiction, maybe they're just struggling with some other thing they feel really guilty about. I want them to understand without it getting even worse what they might be able to do.

SPEAKER_04: 37:16

A couple things come into my mind. One is uh the first is um it's possible to have a right relationship with God. So we're talking about the spirit or spiritual stuff or God, you know, and um so for me, in my terminology, yeah, and I'm open to you know terminology that people can use. But anyways, I had always known and had a quote-unquote right relationship with God. I had always uh, I mean, from at some point there's a moment where I asked the Lord, I asked Christ to come into my life, to come into my heart, to be the Lord and Savior of my life. So, but that happened at a young age, from five or six, you know. So from the time I was five or six to twenty four, I'm enjoying this relationship that I believe to be true, that I'm experiencing. And there's certainly, you know, there's not there's head knowledge, and then there's life experience that proves things. You know that you know that you know because you've felt it, you've been there, you've seen it. It's not just words on a page, but it's it's power, you know, whether it's love and the emotion and the presence and the uh uh of of love, you know, or or friendship or whatever it is. And I and at a different time we can talk about a lot of those different things that made me that allowed me to know that my faith was real, that it wasn't theoretical, it wasn't in a book that was thousands of years old, that it was that there was a there there was a personal relationship that I was daily involved with and um was important to me. And when you talk about that fracture or whatever, you know, all of a sudden that fracture starts and you go, oh my gosh. You know, it's like when you're losing your wife, when you're losing your spouse, when you're losing something that you love because of something. It was like, okay, I am feeling this fracture if you I'm feeling this separation. I'm how how can I still show up and say I'm a Christian? I'm still, I don't lie, I do the right thing. I'm gonna go out and go out and arrest liars who are cheating and stealing and stuff, and yet be one. So um it didn't take too long. The investigation was still ongoing. You know, it was within, it was, it was, it was within a week or two, but I hadn't re you know, it it was the investigation was still ongoing, and I just realized, oh my gosh, the the discomfort in my heart, in my soul, in my being, in my in my identity, in my personal self-worth, was taking such a hit that writing that relationship with God, and therefore writing that relationship with me, with myself, um was the most important thing. You know, people fear consequences. There's consequences for everything, you know, um, good and bad. Consequences, yeah, there's serious consequences for serious things, but rarely do they end in torture and death, you know, usually, you know, and if you're not if you know, so how bad can it be? So you lose your job, so you get another job, you know, you lose a relationship, then you get another relationship. You know, I mean you know if you know, if you if you can stand tall, confident that you're, you know, no matter what you've done, and you repent and you say you're sorry, and you know, the consequence might be losing a relationship, it might be losing a job, it might be losing a friendship, it might be losing an investment, it might be losing whatever it is. It's not the end of the world. It's not the end of the world. I've I've had 40 something more years since then, or nearly 40 years since then, and I hope to have another 40 and another 40, you know. I'm not done. And so, you know, um, it was more important to to be to and to keep walking in life, you know, uh true to myself, because then I'm anchored. Then I've got God with me.

SPEAKER_02: 42:13

That's right.

SPEAKER_04: 42:14

With God with me, who can be against me? I mean, people could be against me, but that doesn't matter. I got God with me, and and I don't need the people who don't love God and don't love me, you know. I wish them no harm, and I I'll go on my journey. We all have a journey, you know. So it was really important for me just to be true to who I was brought up to be, who I wanted to be, who I believed I was, and who I identified myself with. And that change, and then I righted that relationship with God, and then I accepted whatever the consequence is gonna be. But it's not the end of the world. Yeah, bad things, and maybe bad things aren't bad. How about that one? How about we think things are bad because we assign a judgment to them or we assign a value to it. It's only bad because we s are thinking or saying it's bad. What if we just let it be neutral? What if losing that relationship really is not a bad thing? Maybe it's a really a healthier thing. Maybe losing that job, maybe I'm not cut out to be a cop. I mean, I thought I was, but whatever the job is, or maybe that investment. I mean, maybe that's if that invest keeping that investment going is gonna mean being somebody I'm not proud to be, that I wouldn't want my kids to be, that I wouldn't my kids to know, maybe it's not a bad thing to lose it. Maybe it's a good thing to lose it, or at least it can be a neutral thing, you know. So we can, you know, we can redefine, we can redefine things in our head, and all of a sudden they're redefined without anything else changing except our own definition. And so I just chose, you know, to, you know, we it one of the other things later, you know, in law enforcement, and I got into background investigations, and now I'm hiring people and wanting them to hire good people. And I always say there's like there's no perfect people. The chief is not he's not gonna hire any perfect people today, and you're not gonna not get hired because you're not perfect. A, we need to look and see what the truth is, and then we'll see if this is something the chief wants to bring on as a potential liability for negligent hiring. And maybe it's something he or she, as the hiring authority, is okay with. But the thing is, you lie, you die. And we can't hire liars. And now there's new that since that time, you know, if you lie in court on the stand, you know, you become no longer useful to a police department, uh, much less the community. You know, and so um, you know, you lie, you die. Don't lie, tell the truth, take your lumps. If you don't get the job, you don't get the job. You you'll get to do something else that's in line with what you're supposed to be doing. Because we can't, we can't step, we can't get out of, we can't get out of God's um, we can't get out of his plan. I mean, you know, yeah, there's lots of different ways we could go, but if we go, if we make a mistake, we didn't just ruin our life. God is still God, he still can use that for greatness in other people's lives, in our life. So many people who've done so many great things have done them because of they did something they weren't supposed to do before, and they go, that's not who I am. And it it pivoted them to become a person that the rest of us can admire.

SPEAKER_05: 45:45

Oh, yeah. Uh well, every time I have conversations like this, you know, it's fascinating to me that I can still stay at the same time so connected to young Samantha, who took her mother's word as God, that there's no such thing, to early in sobriety Samantha, who couldn't stand the word God, and who wore perfectionism like a noose around her neck, and be so deeply connected to the Samantha who loves and relies on God today. Okay, so I'm saying that first because I think about the listener who's anywhere on that spectrum. And I always try to make sure I'm talking to them. Okay. So from a spiritual perspective, when I asked you, you know, how, how could how did you get from where you were to where you went? How did you do that? How did you do that so fast? You know, spiritually speaking, what I heard you say is that you were so deeply rooted in a loving relationship with God that when that happened, your heart just broke because you felt the separation, the same way that you start to feel, like you said, a marriage slipping away, trust breaking between two people who actually really love each other. Right? There was something well established. You had a practice decades long of going to God and relying on Him. You and I you had an identity that said, I'm a godly man. So it makes sense to me that you could find your way back to God rather quickly. And then for the person who's listening, that can't stand the word. You also said the word identity many, many times. And from a behavioral science perspective, we just want to pull out the science card and what research has shown to be true, right? How do we become somebody new? We have to be in a constant state of evolution with our identity. But every 24 hours, as often as we can, we actually have to cast a vote towards the person we want to become. So first we have to try to figure out what or who that is. Right? So for someone who doesn't understand God, doesn't know God, is angry at God, feels betrayed by God, left behind by God, you know, then well then who are you? Let's just put God on a shelf. Who are you without God? Are you somebody that you respect? Are you somebody who you're proud of? I mean, who are you? And if you don't like who that is, or you don't like parts of who that is, well, what is the identity of a person you would be so proud of? What would they say? What would they say to others through a 24-hour period at the gas station, at the coffee shop? What would they say to themselves when they look in the mirror and they're getting dressed? What actions might they take? How would they care for their bodies? How would they treat their friends? So I think if we do an identity workshop and we get really clear and nuanced about the identity of the person we like to be, then we can start casting votes in the days afterward toward becoming that person. So we take notice of the decisions we're making in the days that follow, and we go, is that casting a vote towards that person I said I wanted to become? And if the answer is no, can that can that be okay? Meaning, can you do it without guilt, regret, or shame? Can you just notice and bear witness and say, I'm gonna try again on the next decision? Right. So you're you know you're talking deeply about faith, but you're also talking deeply about the science of real change. So that somebody who's really far away from faith andor really far away from the identity of the person they'd like to be has a way forward. The other thing when I think about little Sam or newly sober Sam and faithless Sam is God, the word, the idea, the reliance upon. And I was so self-reliant. It scared the shit out of me. It literally threatened me. It felt for a long time like a threat to my safety. Where for you, God was established early on as the safest thing, the thing you could rely the most on unconditionally no matter what. What would you say to the person or to young Sam or one year sober Sam, who hears the word God and recoils? What would you want her to know?

SPEAKER_04: 51:47

Well, I think awareness is crucial. We talked a little bit about awareness at the beginning, or at least commented about it, and I think being aware of that is a great first step because then you can start asking yourself don't judge that you're recoiling, you're recoiling. That's just who you are right now, and where I am who I am today is different than who I was last week and last month and last year and 40 years ago and 60 years ago, whatever. Um, you know, just notice and be aware of who you are. What is what are you what is what's triggering you? This is a trigger, you know. Why am I recoiling? What okay, why am I recoiling? You know, what what did I ever hear? What was I ever told? What how did I ever feel something that made me think that this is A, that there is no God, or B that he or she can't be trusted, it can't be trusted, whatever, you know, whatever the terminology that you're comfortable using, you know, just be aware of that. Um the next thing I guess I would say is um, you know, uh after you're aware of that, then again, if you can be as neutral, as scientific as possible, not casting a vote for there is one, there isn't one, you know, a God, he loves me, doesn't love me, she, you know, whatever it is, what can I learn about it? You know, what does it say? You know, and so it's funny, even now, this week, yesterday, um in preparing uh a top a training topic on leadership and coming back to identity and the importance of being grounded and knowing as a leader who I am, because now I'm making decisions that are grounded. I'm I'm not making decisions trying to fit into something, you know, because you know, then I'm then I'm I again you lose you lose the stability of that. And I did a word study. It's funny, you know. Now that we got Chat GPT and all the other things, I I asked Chat GPT, I said, Who does the Bible say that I am? Who does the Bible say that? I just asked the computer. You know, I don't the computer doesn't have a soul. The computers, we made computers. What you know, what does it say? You've read the the it's got the Bible in its memory. Who does it say that I am? Give me all of the scripture verses. Now I know there's a lot more because because I know, but it gave me a lot. And it told me that I was redeemed, I was forgiven, I was chosen, I was created, that I had purpose, you know, and it gave me the scripture verses that I could then go through in a Bible or even just ask it, give me that full scripture verse, and then just go, wow, okay. And then you can ask it any, you know, you can begin to do your own, use your own questions that are coming from within you, um, and ask it, be just be honest, you know. So ask it your honest questions and see what it says, you know. Um, and I don't know what it'll say because I'm not asking, I don't have your the same questions that the listener might have. But I did do that for myself in preparation for a leadership um talk I'm gonna be giving, and really just getting clear again, another time of renewal, another time of, you know, we go to the gym. Okay, you we didn't get in my Iron Man stuff, but I've you know I'm at I'm an athlete. I was a swimmer in high school and then a cross country and then track, and then I got into track and field in college. I did decathlon, 10 events, and then after college, I got into triathlon, and I did Olympic distance, and then I did Half Iron Man and Iron Man, full Iron Man, you know, so I love athletics. And throughout my life, I've been in really good shape, and I've been out of shape. And I've been out of shape after I've been in really good shape, and then I've been in really good shape after I was out of shape, you know, and there's this cycle.

SPEAKER_05: 55:49

Relatable.

SPEAKER_04: 55:51

Yeah. And so, you know, we're always, you know, um, there's muscle memory and there's perishable skills, and we need to be learning, we need to be growing, we need to be staying, we need to figure out what's important to us, like our identity and who we are and what we stand for, and what and who am I showing up in my who do I show up for as my to my wife, as her husband? Who do I show up to my kids? You know, uh who do I and who do I want to be? Who did I say that I am? And and and realignment. So, anyways, I'm realigning. I'm re- I'm I'm I'm doing my bench press. Uh, who does the Bible say that I am? I believe in the Bible. Who what does scripture say that I am? That's a book for me. Pick other books, you know, what whatever it's gonna be for the for the person. But for me, I mean, you know, so I'm doing that again and again, and I'm I'm strengthening those muscles. And I'm also, you know, the more you know we learn things through repetition. Our muscles get better and stronger through repetition. We learn new tasks in our workplaces through repetition. You know, I was on the SWAT team for many years, and we would train and train and train and train and repeat. How do we get in the rooms safely? How do we rescue hostages safely? How do we, you know, eliminate threats safely, you know, and repeat and repeat and repeat. Same thing with um the information about who I am, or even, you know, uh who do I love or what do I love? You know, spending time, I I've repeated time throughout my day with my wife, and I repeatedly tell her and express to her my love and desire for her and appreciation for her and of her. Um, you know, I'm looking at her picture all the time. I'm keeping, she's what's most important to me. So I'm keeping her face in front, I'm looking at her face all the time. I'm speaking her name all the time, I'm touching her skin all the time, you know, and it's building and and it keeps it, it keeps it fresh and alive. Versus if I didn't look ever look at her picture, I didn't ever use her name, I didn't ever touch her. Pretty soon that muscle memory, that perishable skill, you know, goes away. And you know, then I and I lose her, and I don't ever want to lose her. So anyway, I spend time, you know.

SPEAKER_05: 58:25

I may have got on a tangent and I don't even know if I remember your question or realign me for for your what your question was, but um I I mean it's such good stuff because you know it's funny, like there's always a way to extract science and soulfulness uh from at least today's conversation. It's it's everywhere, right? Because part of what you're saying at the end there is practice. You know, practice makes progress. And the thing that is interesting that comes up when I'm listening to you is how important the separation of who you are from what you did is to really be able to make a start in whether or not you're gonna have a relationship with God, the Christian God, the Jewish God, the non-denominational version of a higher power, the universe, whatever you want to call it, whatever, I think requires that you are not the sum of your greatest mistakes. Because if you punch into Chat GBT an I you know an identity of You want to become and the or the qualities of a leader, or the qualities of a good human, and it spits it all out. And it says that you know, you are loving, you are patient, you are tolerant, you are kind, you are compassionate. But to that, based on whatever you've been through, you say, either out loud or to yourself, well, I'm a piece of shit, so I'll never be that. Then you can't you can't get there, right? So so sometimes when you're at the bottom of the barrel, the the very foundational work if you are far away from God is rigorous self-compassion work. And something you also said, which I think is the start of it. You you know, you said people need awareness first. And you didn't say this word, but you said something that it implied it, which is that they need inquisition, meaning now that I'm aware that I despise God, that's an okay place to be. That I recoil, right? What can I ask myself why? What is that? What is that? You know, and it's part of what I talk about, but it's it's it's compassionate curiosity. It's not a judgment of, it's not hostility toward, it's a you're already creating space from the story that's been running your life and who you are just by asking that question. So with a little bit of space, so in my in my life experience, for example, if someone had been doing that kind of work with me, made me aware, and instead of saying, which they did, if you don't believe in God, you're gonna have a really hard time getting sober, Sam. You are fighting this program tooth and nail, you are self-centered in nature, you are a self-centered, self-seeking alcoholic. You are stuck in ego and pride. That is what they told me. But if someone had said, I'm really noticing how upset this makes you. You almost seem scared, threatened. Do you know why? Can you think of when did you first learn about God? Oh, I learned it from my mother. This is what my this is what my mom said. My mom said okay. Is that your story? Or is that your mom's story? Is it possible? Is it is it point zero zero zero zero zero zero zero one percent possible that there could be another story that's not your mom's story? Well, I don't know. Never really thought about it. Okay, is that story working for you? Do you have peace? Do you have love? Do you have joy in your life? Do you have access to navigating uncertainty and being okay? No, I don't have any of that. Do you want it? Yeah, of course I want it. Good. That's really good. Imagine, imagine I had been coached in recovery.

SPEAKER_04: 1:03:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:03:48

Like that.

SPEAKER_04: 1:03:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:03:49

Right?

SPEAKER_04: 1:03:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:03:51

That's really powerful what you were saying.

SPEAKER_04: 1:03:53

I think it's important to know that we can we can change our story. I a couple words that could, well, a couple things come to mind. One, baby steps are okay. Baby steps can take you all the way up the top of Mount Everest, you know? Baby steps. Don't you have to do big steps, baby steps. And so you want to, A, a thought that came to mind was control the narrative. And then the other one was create the narrative. So how about just pick one word? Just today, I'm just gonna, I'm I'm not gonna try and say that I'm these 14 things that that I want to be. How about I'm just gonna choose one thing that I want to be, and I'm just gonna say throughout the day, even if I don't believe it, and even if I can't look at what I've the life I've lived and believe that is true, but I'm gonna say it this one thing I'm I'm love, or I'm honest, or I'm hardworking, or I'm kind, or I'm compassionate, whatever it is, and just say it throughout the day over and over and over and over till eventually with that repetition, it will become a part of who your identity is, who you'll finally believe it. And you can then add another name. I'm I'm compassionate and kind, or I'm loving and I tell the truth, or I'm hardworking, or I'm I'm I'm I'm willing to be here, I'm willing to show up. If you need somebody to show up, you know, I'm dependable, you know, or I've you know, whatever it is, pick a new word that is the narrative about you that you want to create, because we're creators, and I believe the very in the at the beginning of the Bible, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. He created, and then it says when he created man and woman in his image, male and female, um he made them in his likeness. He's a creator, he created all this. We are creators, and then again, first in thought and then in form. What it is, what it is, what is it that I want to create? What change do I want to see or be in my life? What thing do I want to become? Let's think about it. It's in our thought. Now let's speak it, and let's speak it over and over, and now let's start doing the things that will help us to get there in little baby steps, you know. And I think we can we can navigate life through life. I mean, life throws so many curveballs at us, you know, and that's okay. It's not always what we want, it's not always pleasant, but it doesn't take us out. You know, I love looking at nature and seeing animals, and sometimes you see an animal with a limp, or you see an animal and you go, that animal's still here. Something happened. You know, it got attacked. It it had to fight, it had to fight for its life. And you know what? It's still here. It still eats every day, it still drinks water every day. It didn't get it, you know, so it's got a scratch. Now it's got a limp.

SPEAKER_05: 1:07:00

But okay, yes, but this is the perfect segue to the hostage story. Okay. But that is true. That is true. And there are many, many people walking around with emotional and spiritual limps. Okay. And they're not very happy. Some of them are. What's the difference, right? And and this is where you and I are so unbelievably similar. And I think what the hostage story highlights, I didn't get a tattoo, which is hilarious to me because I was so unbelievably impulsive in so many other areas of my life at very young ages until I was 37. For some reason, I knew you had better wait, girl, because you're gonna regret it. You don't know who you are. Okay. So at 37, I get my first of many tattoos going down my spine, and it says, Vulnerability is my superpower. That was after I lost my dad, but before I lost my sister. I didn't really know how true that was going to become. Maybe I did. And I do feel like it is the work, certainly, of my life, and what I am trying to impose onto others, to continue in the face of hurt, live in love with my whole heart. There are people walking around scarred, banged and bruised from the things they've been through. They're alive physically, but they're dead spiritually. And I've seen a lot of that in people I love, and I'm not interested in that either. We, you and I, are talking about a different kind of work. We're not just talking about getting back up from a dog fight, right? Coming back from war and going and living onward. We're talking about loving, we're talking about leaving nothing on the table, about getting to the end, whenever that is, and saying, I fucking did it. I really lived before I died. And that requires an extra kind of work. And that is the work I believe you've been doing through what you've shared, obviously with me as a friend. But even today, in this conversation, you know, the work of your life has been to continue to put your guard down, get back in alignment with who you really are, in a loving, deep communion with God, and go out and do his bidding. And as a result, I believe it led to perhaps the outcome of the hostage situation. So please, I've been teasing it for so long as to tell everybody that story, and then we'll wrap up our conversation.

SPEAKER_04: 1:10:34

Okay. Well, like I said at the beginning, I love what you pull out of things and pull out of me, so we'll see where this is gonna go. But um, it's a story I shared with you not too long ago, and then I gave it a at a talk uh that was appropriate for the audience.

SPEAKER_05: 1:10:56

It's appropriate for everyone.

SPEAKER_04: 1:10:58

Um thanks. So one of my duties um at the Santa Monica Police Department was being on our SWAT team, and the role that I had that I loved was being a sniper. And I always say a SWAT team is kind of like a baseball team or a any team, you know, you've got different roles, different responsibilities, different positions, and they also all have different personalities types, I think. You know, not everybody's a pitcher, not everybody's a catcher, not everybody's first base or an outfielder or whatever. Some people are just great batters, you know. It doesn't matter where you put them. But um anyway, as a sniper, I'm a pretty patient person. I like myself, I'm comfortable being alone, I'm comfortable in silence, and I'm comfortable being still. And I have a huge uh love for protecting people. And so it was it was really good. I don't have to be smashing the door and going in and you know, and being the guy that's you know confronting everything. I if you know, if there's a bad situation, call the police. If there's a bad, if the police have a bad situation, call the SWAT team. The SWAT team has a bad situ which situation they call the snipers, you know. And I feel like I wanted to be that tip, I wanted to be the end, you know, that showed up who could do all of those other things and and show up and you know take a shot or not take a shot. Doesn't didn't matter. It's it's a role. Anyway, back in 2000, uh July 4th of 2000, I was a home at sleep in bed and got a call from the watch commander waking me up saying that there'd been a shooting on the Santa Monica Pier, and that uh three of our police officers had been shot, two citizens had been shot, uh nobody had died yet. Nobody died, but nobody had yet died, and they were all recovering uh at a hospital, hospitals. Um we had one outstanding, we had a suspect in custody who had fought with the police and was also at a hospital. He got bit by a police dog during his arrest. Uh the officers fought to retain, to gain from him uh and retain his fully automatic Tech 9 machine pistol that he had as a weapon. Um he also had a second backup gun as a as a backup. Um and then we had one outstanding suspect who had shot everybody and had taken 15 hostages, taken 15 people hostage inside the Playland Arcade. And so a SWAT team was being called in, neighboring um police departments were on scene, you know, offering mutual aid, fire department was there, we were moving people off the pier. It was the 4th of July or early in the morning, the morning of. And so um, you know, I I went in. And there's lots of different places along the way where you have where you have thoughts and awareness. But here I am, I'm leaving my three-month-old daughter, I'm leaving my wife in bed, and I'm going to a gunfight. You know, I'm gonna go participate in something that might, you know, I might have to kill somebody. So I was okay with that. Um, you know, and again, that that that's a whole nother conversation about what people are able to, willing to do, able to do, and for and for what reasons and it and under what situations. But anyway, I'm driving in knowing that I'm going to go confront, you know, police work every day is the potential that you're gonna confront armed suspects, and sometimes you do. But it's potential. Here I know I'm I got called specifically for my skill set, for my team membership, um, to go in and be a part of solving this problem or handling this situation. So I I show up on scene, and the deputy chief um updates me on what we now know. We know we have one outstanding suspect, we know who he is, uh his identity's been confirmed. We've got 15 hostages. Um, he's wanted the two of them, one was in custody, one was not in custody, were both wanted for three prior murders. Um, and then the one that was still outstanding had assaulted a different police officer from a different police department the following the previous week. You know, so bad guys, bad guys. And then they now attempted to kill three of our officers, some citizens, and were holding these other people at gunpoint. So I was given the green light at the beginning, which I'd never been given before. If you see him and you have a shot and he's not surrendering, um, take him out. Because 15 lives are still on the line. So I chose a position, covered myself in blankets, had a had a um, you know, had a uh a view of two sides of the arcade, and then spent the next five hours in position while the crisis negotiators, hostage negotiators, talked to this person and eventually got him to agree to uh surrender. So there was a designated window that he was directed to open and exit from, um, and that information was relayed to me and I had a good view, you know. Having the optics, the scope that I had on the rifle, it was very powerful. And so as he opened the window and extended his empty hands and began to climb out the window, I'm consistently evaluating is this a threatening situation is he threatening somebody, is somebody going to get harmed and killed or not? And I was it was a constant slow motion evaluation of threat. And um, and he climbed out the window. I could see the look, I could see where he was looking, I could see the sweat on his face, um, I could see his tattoos, I could see all of that stuff. And he laid down on the ground, you know, very uh slowly and carefully, and then to the awaiting um SWAT officer arrest team, and then they handcuffed him and and and he's he he surrendered, he's in prison, uh he lived. But during that process, and usually afterwards, you then begin to think, okay, what just happened? You know, you replay the events of the night, the events of that were the moments of tension and moments of not tension, moments of are we going? Are we on or we're not on? You know, I can see everybody in my scope. You know, you you you you zoom in or zoom out to where you know you can see what you need to see, and you're not going to create any other put anybody else in harm's way, but you want to see close enough that you can see what you see. But I remember thinking and sharing with you, you know, I saw as he climbed out the window, and my trigger, you know, I was very competent in my I was very confident in my skill set by then. I was very competent in my skills as well. I practiced all the time. Um and I knew he was about, he was less than two and a half pounds of finger pressure from death, you know, as he's climbing out the window, you know, and my and he's in my crosshairs, um, and I'm evaluating, evaluating, evaluating. I know he's so close to death, and that death is going to come from me, um, potentially. And yet he did everything he was supposed to do, and there was no need. It wasn't reasonable or justified to take his life. And it would, and if I did shoot him, it would it would have ended his life, you know, with the with the weapon system that I had with the sniper rifle. So, but anyways, I saw, as you climbed out, I saw a murderer, somebody who's killed three people, and just tried to kill three of my friends, three people that I knew, and another citizen. Um and then I also saw another human being created in God's image, like me, like the officers, like everybody else on the pier. And then this probably. I also saw the son of his mother in my mind. And that night, for a reason, she was there. She probably shouldn't have been there, but she was there. And I knew she was there. I knew his this and she was actually being used, um, which isn't always a great idea, but she was being used with the crisis negotiators to get his compliance. And luckily, his relationship with her caused compliance to occur versus hating his mom and going out in front of her, which sometimes is the case with troubled people. So I knew mom was on scene, and it all of those are factors, all of those are in my mind. They're not gonna change me pulling the trigger if that's the right thing and the necessary thing to do. But those are all emotional components that then I will have I will later have to deal with, experience, work through, be aware of, you know, um, to take her, to take her son's life in front of her, you know, it's a big thing. Wasn't gonna prevent me from doing my job, but it's a big thing, you know, as well as all the other stuff. So anyway, I as we talked about the story, you know, not too long ago, I've just it was interesting that as I drove there, I'm thinking this I may not see my little girl again, I might not see my wife again. You know, as I'm driving there, I'm I'm thinking I'm I'm going to actually probably get into a gunfight as a SWAT guy. You know, and then and as it's um, you know, so there's lots, there's a lots of there's lots of components. And I'm blessed and grateful that I'm aware of I'm aware of those parts of me and I give them attention. I notice them so that I can, you know, do what I need to do to uh give them health, help them be healthy, you know, because that's we're we're you know I show up physically fit as a SWAT guy. I'm body. I'm show up as a with the mental tactics and strategies, you know, as a SWAT guy. I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm mind. And I also show up as a human being, I'm spirit. I'm body-minded, you know, we we are always all body, mind, and spirit. You know, it just so it's important to be aware of that and accept that and cultivate that. I need to be physically working out to stay in shape. I need to be constantly training and learning new tactics, learning new ways of doing things better and better and better. And I need to realize that I'm a spiritual being, connected to all of these other you, all of these other spiritual beings. We're all connected, we're all spirit. When we die, our body stays here. You know, I'm loving reading these books about the near-death experiences, people who die for 10 minutes, five minutes, 30 minutes, two days, and they come back. And like, I never died. My body died, my spirit went someplace else, it had an experience and it wasn't my time, and now I'm back in my body. But we are spiritual beings, and there's a spiritual component to us that deserves love, deserves attention, deserves grooming, deserves fitness, yes, deserves, you know, growth and recognition. So if we don't recognize that part of us, then that's oftentimes, you know, yeah, I'm fit, yeah, I'm smart, but if we're not connected to other people to our spiritual identity, that also then is a connection to other people, you know. It allows me to love, it allows me to love unlovable people. I'm not again, I'm not perfect, but I dealt with a lot of unlovable people in law enforcement for nearly 30 years, every day, every call.

SPEAKER_00: 1:24:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_04: 1:24:35

And yet they're also spiritual beings, you know, who have value and worth and are hurting, like sometimes I was. You know, and then it's what do you do with that hurt?

SPEAKER_05: 1:24:54

This is what I mean about living before you die.

SPEAKER_04: 1:24:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:25:03

You know, you say I'm good at extracting, and I'm listening to that story, and I'm picturing you telling it to a bunch of officers, and I'm picturing you telling it to a bunch of corporate executives. And I'm thinking, what's the through line?

SPEAKER_04: 1:25:32

What's the what?

SPEAKER_05: 1:25:33

What's the through line, right? And you already said it. You already said it earlier in the story you told before. Which is it's not what I did. It's who I am. What I do and who I am are not necessarily the same. Leaders are gonna make mistakes. Husbands are gonna make mistakes, fathers are gonna make mistakes. But if their feet are on the ground, they're gonna find their way back to a place where they love and cherish and respect who they are in the face of those mistakes. A great leader is not a leader who doesn't mess up. A great leader is a leader who knows who he or she is and who, when he or she strays, can find their way back to themselves. Which is a far more powerful leader or father or husband than the one who does it perfectly. You knew at the same time that if you had to kill that man because he was a threat, and he didn't come out with his arms extended, ready to surrender, that you would. And even if you had shot him and killed him, and killed the son of that woman standing there, that he was still a child of God. And you weren't gonna let either decision that you had to make put a guard up around your heart and say, people are the worst. People are evil. Fuck this place. You didn't let it harden you. A good father, a good husband, a good leader doesn't just react to what happens, doesn't make a mistake and say, fuck it. Well, I already made a mistake, so I'm just gonna stay in the mistake. And I'll micromanage you and I'll try to control you, and I'll try to tell you what to do, and I'll shame you because actually that's how I feel about myself. They do the thing, they say the thing, they mess up, they right-size it, they get back in alignment with self, with God, whatever their understanding of love is, whatever that is, and they go out and they lead and they keep the heart open to love. That's how you create a beautiful corporate culture, a loving marriage, an open relationship with your children when we're bound to hurt their feelings. That's how you do it. You're doing it. And these stories show people how it's done. They're really powerful, Michael.

SPEAKER_04: 1:28:54

Thank you.

SPEAKER_05: 1:28:54

You're an amazing man.

SPEAKER_04: 1:28:56

Thank you. You're an amazing woman.

SPEAKER_05: 1:29:02

Oh, is there anything is there anything that you is there anything that you want before you go, the audience to know? Certainly let them know where they can find you. But but anything that you want them to know before that.

SPEAKER_04: 1:29:21

Yeah, I don't mean this to sound uh silly or trite, but you know that I believe this very much. Um I really do think the most important thing is love. And I think if we do, I think you know, there's that pyramid, upside down pyramid, if you will, of the you know, emotional or vibrational or energetic, you know, state states, and you've got shame and things way down at the bottom, which is very you know, small and low energy, low vibration, whatever, and you've got you know love and gratitude and all these other things up much higher. I think if we can find love and find the find the love in the things that we do and the reason why why we do them, I think we will perform better. I think we'll be perform perform at a higher level. I really try to do what I do out of love and finding who who or what is it in this thing that I'm doing that I that I love and that I'm allowing love to show up, you know. Um, and um, you know, being a being a police officer and going to work and and potentially having to get in fights. I don't want to get in any fights, and I tried to talk most people into jail and all those other things, but I loved my family, and I was gonna always make sure I went home to my family. I was gonna do everything I could to de-escalate a situation so that I could go home to my family. And if it went to a place where I was gonna have to get into a fight, then I was gonna fight to the fullest of my capabilities because I was gonna go home to my family. It's all about and then you know, it's always even like when you said you're gonna fight out of love. Yeah, because I'm I I'm I'm you're not taking me out. I'm going home to them. I love them, but I love job, I love law and order. I love the people in this community, I love the people that I serve who need someone to step up on their behalf. So even, you know, I was in a bathroom the other day, and I there was paper towels all over the place. I just picked up all the paper towels and put in the trash can. It's not my bathroom, it's a public bathroom. But I just thought, you know, what would love do? And I used to be a janitor, I used to be a custodian, I used to clean that was my job. And like, you know, I I appreciate the guy who does that or the girl who does that. And I'm gonna do better. I'm gonna show up and be better out of love. Trying to find so anyway, that would be my love message, if you will.

SPEAKER_05: 1:32:06

I that is so incredible. Like, it I don't care who's listening to this. I don't care, no, but I I don't care if you are drug addicted actively, I care. I care. But what I'm saying to you is no matter where you've come from, no matter what trauma you're carrying, what whatever kind of hate in your heart you might still be thawing out from, whatever it might be, if you started and wove into the fabric of your day, that question, what would love have me do?

SPEAKER_02: 1:32:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:32:45

Because even if you have zero experience, which I doubt, zero, of someone loving you, of what love feels like, you can imagine it.

SPEAKER_04: 1:32:55

Yeah. What would I like it to feel like? Be that person.

SPEAKER_05: 1:33:00

And and if you have to imagine that first and then say, What would love have me do? Then do that. What would love have me do? Imagine what the world would be like that we live in.

SPEAKER_04: 1:33:14

Right.

SPEAKER_05: 1:33:15

If all day, as often as possible, people thought that and spoke that out loud.

SPEAKER_04: 1:33:21

Doesn't mean you're weak. I would always say, never confuse my kindness or weakness. I knew I was always gonna win. I was always gonna win. I was trained and I prepared and I thought about it all the time. I'm always gonna win. So therefore, I can be loving, I can be kind, I can be gentle. Because if this goes sideways, you know, it's okay. I'm I'm gonna win. I'm doing it for love. I'm gonna love you, but ultimately it's because I'm coming home to my wife and my kids. And I'm being and I'm being true to I love me, my identity that I have aligned with with God or love or me. However, we however the listener wants, you know, is gonna can interpret it for where they're at in their journey. But for me, it's my relationship with God. And that's a very personal identity person. And I love me. And that was what brought me back to do the right thing and go, maybe this isn't gonna get to be my career after all, but that's okay. Now that I've retired nine years ago, I've pivoted, I've pivoted four more careers. That's okay, it's exciting.

SPEAKER_05: 1:34:36

That's right, it's exciting, yes, you know, yeah, and I always say, you know, once we can establish a sense of first safety and then deep, deep self-worth and love inside. Well, we can go out and take all the external risks we want. Because we know we're gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_04: 1:35:01

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05: 1:35:03

Where can people find you?

SPEAKER_04: 1:35:04

So uh I have a website, then I have an email. I don't know if I should get my phone number or not, but um I have a website is my company is uh Mindset Matters Consulting. So my website is www.mindsetmatters consulting.com. Um I think so much of what we do, you know, comes down to mindset. Um that's where it all starts. I think our thoughts or our mindset lead to our emotions or our feelings or our energy, which leads to how we act, and those actions lead to our results, you know. So um anyway, mindset matters consulting.com and then Michael at mindset matters consulting.com would be my email.

SPEAKER_05: 1:35:50

What about Instagram?

SPEAKER_04: 1:35:51

You know, right now it's it's still official Michael Graham. Okay. It's was I started it back years ago when I was acting. I'm still acting, but um that's more of my acting that's okay.

SPEAKER_05: 1:36:04

We're gonna start adding in a bunch of speaker clips. And so if people want to get content from you on leadership, safety, spirituality, absolutely love everything that you talk about. They will they can continue to go and check you out on social media because some of the people who are younger listening are, you know, that's sort of the way.

SPEAKER_04: 1:36:29

Official Michael Graham.

SPEAKER_05: 1:36:30

Yeah, on Instagram. More coming soon. Yeah, an Instagram theater near you.

SPEAKER_04: 1:36:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_05: 1:36:36

I love you. It's so good to have you.

SPEAKER_04: 1:36:38

I love you too, Dr. Sam.

SPEAKER_05: 1:36:40

Full circle moment.

SPEAKER_04: 1:36:42

Full circle.

SPEAKER_05: 1:36:43

Until next time, everybody. Thank you for coming to Truth About Addiction.