How To Cultivate Certainty Beyond Logic with Lindsay Marie

Control can look like ambition, discipline, even “spiritual growth” until you notice the cost: anxiety, exhaustion, and that quiet fear that you are only lovable if you earn it. I sit down with Lindsay Marie for a deep, honest conversation about what she calls certainty beyond logic, the kind that doesn’t promise a specific outcome, but does promise you’ll be okay no matter what. That shift is simple to say and incredibly challenging to embody, especially when business, relationships, or family life press on old wounds. 

We talk openly about sobriety, addiction recovery, and how so much of our coping is really a search for nervous system safety. We unpack the tension between taking real action and releasing the result, plus the sneaky ways ego turns healing into another performance. We also compare our evolving definitions of God, Source, and intuition, and why expanding the language can make spirituality feel safer for people with religious pain, trauma, or a visceral reaction to the word itself. 

You’ll hear practical tools too: “remembering” as a daily practice, the spiritual boardroom image for parts work and inner child healing, and a powerful somatic approach to rejection and failure that replaces bypassing with presence. Lindsay also shares the origin story of her Powerhouse Women event and how it became a space where big dreams and real struggles can both exist. If this resonates, subscribe, share the episode with a friend who needs it, and leave a review with the moment that hit you most.

Transcript

Welcome And A NYC Sync

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Welcome back, everybody, to the truth about addiction. This is a very exciting interview for me. I've been, first of all, so honored that I got a yes. You know, when you when you slide into somebody's DMs in 2026, you just don't know if you will ever hear from them because it happens to me all the time. I get I get very strange messages, I get a lot of solicitation. It's intense. And so it's easy to sort of miss. And that's what I did. I slid into this woman's DMs and said, I just love what you represent and I have this podcast. And really, it's just my way of wanting to have a deep conversation, a getting to know your heart based on what you're putting out to the world and what you're doing in the world. And that I feel our souls are sort of strangely aligned. And she said, yes. And so I have Lindsay Marie here, who is an extraordinary woman and who's doing all the things and is on a very clear, palpable, might I say, uh, personal development journey. And so am I. And so, first of all, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's so good to have you. Also, I noticed just the other day, our podcast is going to be the day I got back from a trip to New York City with my son. And I was looking at your stories and saw that you were in New York City. And I had never taken my son to the village. And I used to go into the village because I grew up in Brooklyn, and that was the really cool place to go at the time. And I was like, you know, I need to take you down there. It's kind of funky down there. There's all these stores. That's where mommy got her eyebrow pierced and her belly button pierced when she was doing this thing. Let me take and you were there. You were there the same day around the same time. And I just thought that was so interesting. So here we are. We love when that happens, right? We love when that happens. And what was cool is that before I knew you were in New York, while I was in New York, I was washing my face in the hotel sink. And I just got a download of what I wanted to say to you to kick this off, which is which is tell me what you think of this sentence. There

Certainty Beyond Logic

SPEAKER_02 2:37

is nothing more important in your spiritual journey than having certainty beyond logic.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

That I have found to be true. And it's also the thing that challenges me more than anything else on a daily basis to actually live it. Say more. Like there's certainty that starts in the mind. I can tell myself all of the things that reinforce certainty. And when I when I say certainty, what I hear in that statement and how it's lived in my heart and soul and life is certainty that it is all working out and that I will be okay no matter what. So it's not certainty in a specific outcome, which is where my mind would like it to be. So understanding it on a logical level is different than my cell's understanding it. It's different than the embodiment of it. It's different than living as though I am certain everything is working out, especially when the things that are happening on the outside don't look like how I would prefer. So it's one of those concepts, I think, for me, that is a living, breathing opportunity day in, day out to see where I effortlessly am that truth, and then the places where I am so not. Like the moments where something isn't working out in my business, and my first instinct is to go into control and try to make it happen. And finding that balance between full surrender of the outcome, but actually all the things that we want to create do require us to move. They do require us to take action. So I think that the more I have allowed truths like that one to continue to reveal to me just the places where I might know it in my mind, but I don't live it, you know, through and through. I learn so much about myself. I learn a deeper level of what it feels what it is to be certain, no matter what the outside, no matter what logic, no matter what my external reality says.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

This is this is why I wanted to start here because it's going to inform the entire conversation, right? And I don't know if you know this about me. I'm 17 years sober from drugs and alcohol, and I come from a long line of addiction. And that's where so much, as we were touching on before we hit record, of my heartbreak has come from. And so there was no certainty that anything was going to be okay ever, unless, unless I manhandled it, unless I put a noose around my neck and nearly killed myself in the process controlling the person, the place, the thing, and the situation at all times, no matter what. And so my recovery of myself, my truest self, has just been one giant journey back to deeply trusting in the not knowing. And so it's interesting what you're saying because this is just a human struggle. And it becomes rather insidious. The the delineation of moving from head to heart or from mind into embodied in this way is hard to detect sometimes. First of all, yes, to the straddling of the tension, always between taking the action, letting go of the result, taking the action, letting go of the result. Where is that line? And a lot of the time you don't know you crossed it till you crossed it. And then there's the consequence of it, whether it's the physiologic consequence, the exhaustion, anxiety, the uh-oh, I owe somebody an amendment. And so what is it? What is it to live that way, straddling that tension constantly? And what is it to go from I know I know that everything is okay? I have a a bank now of evidence, spiritual evidence, that I've made it through some really hard things where I couldn't see my way forward and it all worked out better than I imagined, different than I imagined, of course, but better. How do I go from knowing that and then suffering again when the next thing comes and I can't see? And I want to contribute to living in a way that is to whatever God is that is the embodiment of you know, being like God, being one with God, being in the absolute flow of I I just don't have to know. I trust so deeply right now as I move through this thing that I can't see or touch or name. I trust so deeply that it's all being taken care of. What and so I am also in a space where every 24 hours, that is the challenge, that is always the challenge. And sometimes I'm so far away from it, and sometimes I'm the living, breathing testament of it. And I don't know if it's our job to get all the way there, or if the job is precisely what we're doing, which is like us, we go to sleep at night, there is a spiritual death of sorts, and then we wake up and we have the opportunity again to try again to get closer to it being on a cellular level, the way we move through the world, and that each sort of hard thing that makes us want to go back to that old place of controlling is just a test. It's just a spiritual test to say you you now are conscious enough to have a choice in the matter. So you can totally do what you've always done and probably get what you've always gotten, or you can deepen your trust, deepen your certainty, even though you can't see your way forward. So, so what do you what do you want to do? What do you want to do

Addiction, Control, And Trust

SPEAKER_02 9:17

right now? And I and I'm just wondering, first of all, what does the word God mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Hmm. I am at a point with that question where I'm just a lot, I allow myself to have more questions than answers. I grew up in the church, I grew up Christian, and I remember even at a very young age having the thought that if I grew up, for example, in a Muslim country and I was told that was truth, I would believe that in the same way that I saw the the adults around me telling me this was the one and only way to reach this place called heaven that we should want to go to. And it wasn't safe to have those thoughts back then. It wasn't socially acceptable, it wasn't acceptable in my family. So to come to the place where now as an adult, I allow myself to, in the same way I was talking about discovering what certainty is, just be in the constant discovery of what God is. It feels like the the most true place for me to be. I have a very deep connection to an energy that I would call God. And I sometimes say the universe, and I, you know, I'm equally resonate with the word source. I have really allowed myself to expand my own definition of that because I think what feels true to me is that it's, you know, our humanness wants to put a label on something that doesn't need a label and it can't be explained.

SPEAKER_02 10:52

I I feel exactly the same, by the way. So I love this because I grew up very differently. I grew up with a with a mom who was a raging atheist. It was very confusing. It my dad was Jewish, so we would celebrate Hanukkah, say prayers, but I didn't understand anything about the religion itself or what it embodied. And then we would celebrate Christmas with no prayers and no going to church, but we'd get a lot of presents. So it was like, oh, I'm I'm both, and I celebrate both. But then as their marriage really fell apart, and my dad was sort of summoned to the basement, and my mom was the absolute matriarch, it was like there is no such thing as God. Anyone who believes in it is a fool, and the only person you can count on is yourself. So you can imagine landing in a 12-step meeting after a drug overdose, and everyone just preaching the good word about getting down with God, even though they were trying to say, This is a God of your own understanding, the word itself created a visceral reaction in my nervous system. I mean, it literally made me recoil and made me feel deeply unsafe. And it kept me out of recovery for a very, very long time. And it, I'm one of those people that shouldn't, shouldn't, I mean, I should for sure be here, but I could have not been here a lot of different times along the way, not just from my overdose, but in the five years that I was abstaining and without a sense of certainty in anything other than my own willpower. It's a miracle I didn't relapse and die. And for me, I began my discovery of that word and the complete reframing of what it meant to me when I was face down in a pit of despair. And all these survival patterns that had kept me alive and safe, particularly with perfectionism, stopped working in this marriage. It was a marriage that had to be okay for me to be okay, and it was completely falling apart. And all the ramifications of what happened on the front end of my active addiction showed up in the early years of our marriage, and I couldn't take it. I was a sober woman living in constant rage and anxiety with zero self-worth. And so the reason that was so important is because it was the end of those survival skills being able to work in my life. And it's very tricky when you're very high achiever. Boy, can you do a lot with those skills, being you know, very multi-talented, multi-faceted, a great multitasker, high, highly controlled. If you tell me what to do, oh, I will do it and I will do

Redefining God Without Labels

SPEAKER_02 13:49

it really well. But but then give me the same task with a broken marriage. There's no pathway through that that's clear. There is no formula, there is no amount of studying to get an A. There's no amount of thinness or beautification to make him love and forgive me. And I and I found that out. And so, in that place of desperation, I actually did the soul-level work that was required to clear away the shame that was blocking me from this source, this source of love, whatever it is. I couldn't hear it. I couldn't hear anything, I couldn't tap into any of it because the voice that was the loudest was the critical voice, the shame that was saying, Oh, your marriage is falling apart, Sam. This is what you fucking get for what you did because you're a piece of shit. That's all I could hear. And I did this rigorous spiritual work with this woman, and it's ultimately what my whole book became about a gazillion years later. And we turned this the 12 steps around on my marriage instead of on substance, and we turned the amends process onto myself instead of onto other people, and all of a sudden, shame had a place to go. And I started to hear this other part of me, which was the truest and most authentic part, which no matter what your lived experience is, and I don't, I don't know what you come from, I don't know your level of trauma and heartbreak. I don't know that about you. But whatever we come from, whatever we've learned, whatever meaning we've made of the things that have happened to us, we end up in an attempt to survive those things. And they don't have to be big, they could be enough small micro offenses where we couldn't quite be who we actually are in order to be okay. So we became something else. We became the pleaser or the performer or the right, and and we have to find our way back to our authentic self somehow, if we're going to recover and be able to sort of charge in the direction of our destiny. And so when I started having a way to recover that, I could hear what I then started to call the whisper of God, the whisper of my intuition, this higher self, this universal energy of love and forgiveness and kindness and patience and tolerance. And it's the part where the certainty lives. And so I want to give you this analogy and kind of see what comes up for you. So when I hear the word boardroom, I've been in all the big rooms with all the seven, eight, nine figure entrepreneurs, right? And we think of a boardroom as like the place where meetings go down and big decisions for the business get made. And I I really, of course, that's true, but I really like to think of it as a spiritual boardroom. It's much more intriguing to me to consider that daily. And so, in that imagery, there are all these little Sams that take a seat at the table, and they're different ages and they're different parts of me. There's the perfectionist and the procrastinator, and the girl who's in a lot of fear and indecision. And everyone just sits down, and I try to stay in the seat of CEO and just go, what are our grievances today? Who would

The Spiritual Boardroom Within

SPEAKER_02 17:41

like to share first? Who would like to speak and just let them show up and honor them and stay really curious? And as you said, you said open, right? Say open, huh? What is this? What is why is this here? What is this trying to show me? What is this trying to teach me? And and take them with me into the day. You know, it's almost like my ultimate version of healing is I walk into any situation, and the harder, the more important this is. I walk into any situation, any conversation, and I've got whatever part of me that is the most afraid in one hand, six-year-old Sam, 12-year-old Sam, she's right here. And then I have God, whatever that is, love, energy, goodness, kindness. And we just we just walk into the room together, and we just we say, okay, I don't know what's gonna happen. But this is how I'm showing up. I'm showing up with all the all this stuff, and I'm gonna do my best right now. What do you make of of this analogy for healing and personal development uh in terms of a spiritual boardroom?

SPEAKER_01 18:45

It's funny as you described that, it reminded me of a similar picture I saw in a meditation kind of experience once, but my boardroom was around a campfire, which just felt cozy and it felt intimate, and it just felt like this opportunity to just be with these, you know, different elements of myself, my personality. Um, and I find that to be incredibly true. I mean, this the journey that I've been on has given me so much insight and taken me down paths to start to understand how all of that absolutely informs the way that we move through the world. And, you know, it's been this beautiful process of I think getting to know those different parts of myself that unknowingly felt unaddressed or unattended to. And a lot of that showed up in the ways that I moved about the world and tried to find that love and significance in other ways. And so I love that. And I I love the analogy or the visual you shared about, you know, taking the hand of the part that's the most afraid in one hand, and then whether it's God or the part of us that's tapped into truth, you know, whatever truth is, but the part of us that knows the part that's connected to the divine in the other hand, because I think if we, I mean, this is kind of getting to maybe like a really out there perspective and way of looking at it, but I think it's all the same. I think it's all us, and it's and it we're all a part of this, and we're experiencing ourselves and each other in different ways that bring us back to that ultimate truth. It's kind of the the place that I'm at in my understanding of it right now. So being able to look at it in that way, that it's it's me informing me, you know, on a level that I can't really understand in my conscious mind, my logical mind, but on a spirit and a soul level makes perfect sense. You know, it's all it's all really bringing me back to the place of remembering that I am whole and I am love and I am all of these beautiful experiences that I think the soul is in search of because it knows that to be true. But until we know that it can be sourced from within, we live in a world, we're born into a time in the world where we're taught to find those things outside of us. And that's been, I mean, my journey 100%.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

Which brings me to something you said earlier, but also what you just said now, because it's it's related, I think, this idea of certainty and the embodiment of when it's sort of flowing and that's how you're living, versus when you drop back into no that that thing out there has to work, or else or else it's not okay, my business is not okay.

Earning Worth Versus Receiving It

SPEAKER_02 22:00

I'm not okay. Can you give me something more recent in your life where both of those things have happened? So an example where you dropped back into this thing out there. It's not going the way I want. I'm gonna do X, Y, and Z, and I'm gonna I I gotta control the outcome. I don't feel safe right now. Versus an example where you realized either in the moment or afterward that you were completely surrendered through the uncertainty.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Such a great question, I think. You know, I don't know that this is quite as specific as what you're asking for, but I'll go with it because it's the thing that's right there. I've recently had this, I think just a different view of myself, this insight into the way that even the way I was surrendering, the way I was operating in all these beautiful ways we've been talking about, was still in an attempt to fix and change something that wasn't quite enough about myself. Like I caught myself in the act of how brilliant my ego, that part of my personality that's just trying to keep me safe, is that I'll it'll even convince me that the things that I'm doing that seem spiritual, I even make those another example of my version of it in the world is very much like I need, I need to work really hard at this in order to earn it. And then I guess once I get to some arbitrary point where I've decided I've earned it, then I can enjoy it. So that comes with love, that comes with money, that comes with, you know, anything that I I want to experience that I think are these natural states, right? I think we have access to love, abundance, freedom, peace, you know, whatever you you want to call it. And then we, you know, our consciousness decides at some point that that has to be earned outside of us. And so we just like I just watched myself. I sat back and I was like, wow, I'm I just continue to create this game and this view of life where I put something out there in the future that actually is available right now within me. I put it out there in the future and kind of create this game where I have to work toward it, I have to earn it, I have to, you know, send this many emails or do this many social media posts. And and I don't even know if I even want the thing that that's us, you know, I'm dangling the carrot out in front because I'm assigning, let's just say that it's like a specific result in a launch. I'm assigning a meaning, like, oh, when I reach that result, then I get to feel worthy, then I get to feel abundant. Like I'm we're just always outsourcing the thing we want to feel and assigning it to a random thing outside of us. I could, I could use the example of like right now I'm I'm single and desire to be in partnership. I do feel that's something I want to experience. And and yet I will, I notice that I look at it through the context of like, oh, it's when that person arrives, then I get to experience myself as I believe that I will get to experience in in a relationship. Where when I think back to the most recent relationship I was in, which was beautiful, and I think back to like, how did how did I experience myself and what did I love about that? And the moment I tap into that, like that part of me is alive right now, without the, you know, the mirror, the external reflection of the thing I think is gonna bring it along. So I'm constantly just catching myself. Again, I don't know necessarily that this was the the answer even to the question that you asked, but it's right there and it's the most alive for me right now is I just have to laugh at like how sneaky my whole makeup is that I I keep thinking I've broken through this need to find these things that I want externally. And then I just find that I've put it in new wrapping paper, I've found a more creative way to do the same thing. And it's kind of fun because then you know you get if you get into the if you can really just laugh at how perfect it is and how how how perfectly designed it is to keep that system in place. There was a moment for me, it actually was this is why I love travel. When I'm in a new city, when I'm outside of my normal, you know, routine. I feel like I get different insights than I would normally get when I'm just in my day-to-day life. And there was something that I don't know at what point in my trip just recently in New York, I just kind of had this moment of awareness where I said, yeah, I'm just not gonna do that anymore. Like there was there were things within my business that I still saw myself creating a game where it has to be hard work in order to reach XYZ outcome. And I I'm deciding, like I'm choosing, I want the hard work version of it. And then of course the universe is like, great, tee it up. She wants hard work, we're gonna make this feel hard, we're gonna make it feel like, gosh, nothing that used to work is working anymore. And I just had this moment where I was like, oh I wonder, again, I'm I'm I'm not coming on this podcast and saying this is the answer for you. I just had the insight for myself to say, I wonder if, just like I'm choosing to prove that this is hard work so I can reinforce the story that I worked hard, now I deserve it, blah, blah, blah. Is it just as true if I choose to believe it and I choose to operate through this context that it could be really fun, it could be easy, I could be in New York City having the best time of my life. And sure, if I if I feel prompted to take action, of course I'm gonna take that action. I'm not just sitting back expecting things to fall from the sky, but can I change my context of how I'm relating to these goals that I have in my business? And in doing so, and I think here's the key, this is what surrender looks like. Surrender that I might not get the outcome I think I want. I might get a different outcome that I didn't know I wanted. That the moment I assign, let's say, what I want to experience is freedom. If I assign it to, okay, then this particular part of my business has to turn out exactly like this. What I almost guarantee will probably be the case is that you can have the outcome. It's just gonna not come through, it wouldn't come through the way that you know it to come. Otherwise, it wouldn't be anything new. So playing with that energy, you know, whether it's in my business or, you know, the same thing within like romantic relationships of, you know, I'm I'm taking the action that I see to take, I'm keeping myself open, I'm making sure that I'm also living as the person who I say I want to attract. Am I embodying those qualities? And am I allowing myself to be vulnerable and be seen and then releasing the outcome from there? You know, the moment I go into, okay, I'm interested in that person, how could I put myself in a position to be noticed? Now I'm trying to control the outcome. Versus I what feels true for me is that it's it's not going to happen like that. And if it did, that would, but maybe me forcing a relationship to happen that wasn't actually the one that's a match for what I say I want. So it is this dance between getting really clear like what are the things that we want, what is the energy of that, how do we align ourselves? And I think what's been true for me, and I'm not sure if this is something you resonate with, but the moment I ask for expansion is the same moment, whether I realize it or not, I'm also asking to be shown where I'm limited. I'm asking to be shown where I don't currently show up in the world as a match for that thing. And so if I can be open to playing the game of finding my own limitations, loving them, right? Because it's just any limitation is just the same thing that made me really successful at the level that I'm currently at. It's just maybe not a match for where I want to go. And then, you know, looking at my own patterns, looking at how I show up in relation to the thing that I want and being willing to transform any of it, you know, that I realize at some point isn't a match for what I want next. So I'm just in this constant discovery of just like I was saying about God, instead of looking for the sure fire plan, this is guaranteed to get you this outcome, which I would love. I'm a Capricorn, I'm like very logical, I love a plan. But realizing that the best things and every single one of the best things in my life have come in a way I could never have expected. And they've come by me doing more of the spiritual energetic clearing process, because I can even make that into work, the spiritual work of like now I need to earn it spiritually. Like, no, no, no. I just need to remember I'm already it. I am already love. Now, what part of me right now is just blocking me from experiencing it? And it's it's almost so simple that again, my human mind goes to make it more work so that I can earn it and feel valuable and worthy of it.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

Oh, there's so much good stuff in there. I I think I have two questions. One the the first is where does where does that come from for you? I think there's a cultural backdrop that that we sort of get thrust into and and also many, many environmental things. But this idea that I'm I'm only lovable if I earn it. I'm only lovable if I work hard enough, if there's blood, sweat, and tears, and a trail to show for what I've done, where does that come from from you? Why is that so historical?

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Probably be just because it was what was praised, you know. I grew up in the Midwest. I grew up in a culture that very much celebrates that I internalized a lot of the religious programming of, you know, even just what it was to be a good person, what it is to be a good girl, like very much following rules. And I think I liked that structure. I liked someone saying, you do X, Y, and Z. Here, you get what, you know, this outcome. And so when I when I peel back the layers, I mean, that was very much where I felt seen. I was a natural performer in terms of the good grades, the, you know, the extracurricular achievements. I just kind of knew how to play that game, but I also played a really small version of it because the moment I realized that I got praise for let's use grades, for example, I stopped putting myself in situations like advanced classes that I could have handled, that I probably would have grown more, but I couldn't control whether or not I got an A in those classes. So instead I just defaulted to the classes that I knew were a sure thing. So it, you know, it created this very safe but very stifled environment that until I started to wake up to, you know, I had this internal turmoil of knowing there was more for me. Like I just knew on a level that I couldn't explain that there was more for me. But what was blocking it was I wasn't putting myself in a position to be shown where I was limited, right? I was only staying within the risks that I could still control. So it, you know, probably all comes from childhood in some way, shape, or form.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

Yeah. And to move from, I love going back to places just in the way of understanding, having consciousness around when these things crop up again and they continue to reveal themselves, we we have a sort of a compassionate understanding and curiosity around it. And then we have agency and choice in redirecting it, right? And it's so I think people in my the title, the subtitle of my book, I say how to rewire your mind for hope, resilience, and joy in the face of trauma. And in a lot of the interviews I did, you know, people who really recoil with that word are like, what if you don't think you came from trauma or you don't, you don't have the, you know, how can this book help? And it's like, yes, going back is very, very helpful not to dwell, not to relive the pain and reinforce it over and over again, but to understand with with an open heart and an open mind why things in your adult life look the way that they do and how you can change them. That's all, right? It's it's to take back some power in what we can change today. And so you talked about, you said something a moment ago in that vein where you are in this sort of conscious catching of the backslide, if you will, if we even want to call it that. And and that you then get a chance in those moments to question it and to stay open and re-rerute the direction that you're moving through the world in. And I I want to say something about that and then ask you something about that. So another thing I think that drew me to you when I was looking at your your posts and the language you used is that you said remembering. You said remembering a lot. And I I say that all the time. That the this business of uh becoming who we're supposed to be is literally an exercise in remembering because we just keep forgetting. We and and again, that's based on a thousand different things, and it's not to make us feel bad or or to be heavy, even. It's just life is lifing, and and there's a thousand things going on, and then we we literally just forget the truth of what is and of who we are, and and our work is to not fall asleep at the wheel, is to stay awake and to stay conscious so that we can remember. And I think when I'm doing my very best to remember, I can interrupt, if you will, uh a backslide in real time. I can see what's coming, see what I want to do with it, what I would normally maybe do with it, historically do with it, and I can go, how do I remember? What is the fastest way to remembering my godliness, my love, my, you know, my truth, my essence, that I already have access to all the abundance that I say is out over there somewhere down in the future when I hit those markers, like what is the fastest way back to myself right now in this moment? And it totally depends on what's happening. I mean, I have two little kids. It depends, are they smothering me right now and need stuff? Well, okay, my access is going to be more limited. Maybe it's just a box breath. I know for sure that dancing for me is my love language. It's the thing always, movement-wise, that brings me to joy the fastest. It just changes my state. And so then I have access to a completely different reality once I do that. So becoming for me really clear on very simple, very accessible, you know, I don't need to go to a class or pay a therapist. What is available right now? What is available in my body, in my breath, in my the narrative between my ears right now to move me back into a state of remembering? What do you what do you do? What is your sort of toolkit right now with where you are when you are in the conscious awareness of what's happening and where you might be going and going, oh wait, no, like the New York City moment. Oh, oh no, actually, I don't need to, I don't need to suffer through this. That's an old belief system. I can actually have a really good time. And and this can be kind of while I take all this action, really lighthearted and actually really, really fun and magical and different. And that's how all the best things have happened anyway. Don't you remember? Don't you remember? You had a an intellectual remembering. But do you do anything that is somatic or anything to help you remember?

SPEAKER_01 38:57

I

Somatic Tools To Remember Truth

SPEAKER_01 38:58

have a lot of my journey this last year has been going from head to body and playing with all the tools, so many that you shared. But what I've been working with more recently is noticing that in that moment of noticing, what's actually happening is there's something I'm resisting, wanting to feel, whether it's to feel like a failure, feeling rejected, a lot, those were, those are just two energies that have been more that I've worked with recently. And instead to just pause if I can in that moment, again, I can't always pause right in that, in that time that I'm feeling it or that it's coming up, but a lot of times I can and instead just actually feel it, just feel rejection came up today, and I forget what it even was. It wasn't something that actively happened. I was, I was thinking back to something that happened. And a lot of times it's not even something that actually happened, it's the added meaning that I'm putting on top of it. It's, you know, I did this and I didn't get a response. And then noticing how my mind goes right to these creating this entire scenario of what another person may be thinking so that I can bring up a feeling that's so familiar, which is feeling rejected. And then I notice all the things like I'm kind of just I think the moment we notice that we're noticing, we're not in the pattern anymore. So we can observe it, we can observe what does it want to do? Where do I feel this in the in my body? And can I just welcome it in instead of and not that this is at all what you were saying, but I heard for myself in the past it would be, well, what breathing do I need to do right now to not feel this? It actually alchemizes faster when I just say, Oh, yeah, I hate feeling rejected. That's not a fun feeling. Like, and underneath it is like it's the oh, you're unlovable, you're not good enough, it's like all that muck. And kind of just, you know, I worked with a brilliant, she's a good friend too, but um mentor several years ago, and she taught me this beautiful exercise before I even knew what inner child work was. And she said, you know, just imagine like a the most beautiful, you know, for some people, maybe the word parent could be triggering. They didn't have the experience of like unconditional love. But if you can draw up the feeling of, you know, an unconditional love, if you can assign that to a person, if you can assign that maybe to how you feel toward your children, you know, if you can access what that feels like, and it's just this conscious unconditional love that doesn't need you to be any other way other than how you are right now. And so, you know, imagining that then I'm being with that feeling, and I just say, I love you so much, stay as long as you need, instead of right, because instead of what we do is like, I don't have time to feel this right now, I don't want to feel disempowered, just to be like, Oh, you're here. Like for for me, even just realizing maybe this needed to come up right now, because it's just it's trying to work out of my system. But the more I try and survive to not feel it, I'm just perpetuating it. So instead of em playing with that that practice of, oh, let me just be with it. Like if I just don't resist that it's here right now and there's something looping and I just welcome it to stay, I'm like, oh, okay, I see you. You know, I intuitively I just kind of speak within my own, whether it's within my own heart or sometimes I will say it out loud if that feels supportive, but just intuitively kind of speak to whatever it feels like that whatever's bubbling up to the surface needs to hear in that moment. And there's always a part of it that I say, stay as long as you need. And I notice that the less I resist it, the more, even if it's kind of like stay as long as you need, and I'm gonna show up for this podcast right now. You don't have to go anywhere. You can be right here with me. I'm gonna show up, you know, I'm gonna continue to do what I'm doing. And I find that, you know, and and it's it's not lost on me that I think a lot of this is maybe also what I craved to feel as a as a child, was just seen just as exactly how I was. You know, I was very much um, I don't know that this was intended to be placed upon me, but this is how I internalized it, that my value came from really being the easy one, from being the one who didn't really have needs. I didn't, you know, I took care of myself. I didn't have a lot of emotional outbursts. I had a very emotional, um, I have a very what when we were kids, she was really emotional younger sister, and I just saw that like that really dysregulated my mom. So I started to not allow myself to. Those big emotions. So now I get to allow myself to have big emotions with myself. Um, so that's my current practice. And and like I said, I mean, just an hour ago, out of nowhere, while I was getting ready for our beautiful podcast, just all this feeling of like uh just feeling rejected, feeling not wanted. Nothing had happened. I was literally just in my bathroom, kind of in that state of just nothingness. I wasn't, I was listening to like light background music. And and so when that comes up, I think I also now realize that it's it's coming up because it feels safe enough now to come up. And that in itself is such a gift. It's such a gift. It means that it can, it can move into whatever it's meant to transmit and you mute into. It's it doesn't need to change, it doesn't need to leave for me to be okay. But for so long, I was using all the tools in an effort to not feel it. So I was just perpetuating it.

Safety, Numbing, And Real Recovery

SPEAKER_02 44:56

You just nailed so much of what I've uncovered about addiction, you know, and I've had my podcast for four years. I've I told you, so for a really long time. And in the writing of my book and the wanting so badly to widen the lens on what addiction even means, which is essentially just an attempt to feel safe in your own skin again, which we are all trying to do in a thousand different ways in all shapes and sizes and forms, every single day. To speak to what you just said, it always comes back to safety versus threat. And there are so many times I can think along my personal development journey where I mean that's precisely what I ran from, right? I mean, why does an addict numb themselves to the point where they die or almost die from it? Well, they they can't stay with feeling that's coming up, it's too scary. It is it is like alarm bells going off. There's, oh, there's a lack of worthiness, danger, danger, unlovable, run, anesthetize, quick. You might die because of this feeling is going to kill you. Get out of here now. And what it takes, right, to actually have the work. Because I always think about my listeners and I always think about the older, older as in unhealed, younger really version of me. What would she really need to hear? Right. And so it takes a long time to get to a place where the actual work is I'm I'm awake, I am observing what's happening, I see it, I am not slapping a new thing across it and transferring my addiction. I am not taking a big breath, which is actually spiritually bypassing it. I am brave enough and I feel safe enough to sit here and go, oh, I'm terrified. I'm terrified of the no. What if they say no? And I and I can tolerate letting that come up. I can completely stay with myself and not self-abandon long enough to feel the anger, the resentment, the fear, the grief. Oh, grief until it passes. And that that so much of the work is just in there, but that it takes time to get there. And that that's okay too. You know, I remember recently someone said, Well, isn't what you're doing just transferring your addiction? Isn't, you know, isn't that what addicts do who go who go to 12-step rooms? They just transfer their addiction for substances to God. They become God obsessed or to the gym and they become obsessed with working out. And I said, Well, no, um that happens a lot. And in the beginning, I don't know if there's even anything wrong with that. That's what a lot of people's journeys look like. So the the less scary thing is they've been able to arrest this chemical dependency, but all the feelings are right there, and they still have no idea how to cope with them and they're still terrified of them, and they don't quite know who they are or if they're lovable yet. And so if they're finding solace in something that isn't as life-threatening, if they're worshiping something that is still slightly outside of themselves, that is still a running from, and ultimately, recovery of self is is a returning to, is a staying with, but it takes time, especially when you learned that you cannot be exactly who you are and be safe, right? And it takes whatever it takes. And I think I think so, just for the listener, right? Just hearing that, and and if you're like, I have no idea how to do that, I I the idea of doing that, just going, grief, I see that you have shown up. Uh really bad timing. Stay as long as you'd like. The idea of that, if it feels absolutely inaccessible, that's okay too for now. But that ultimately, I really do think that is a testament to the work, to the level of healing, to be able to establish that level of safety within yourself. That's it. I mean, that is it. That's the work. And I just I you know, the fact that you said that and that that's where you are, it is like of well, of course I'm of course I was drawn to you. Because I think finally after after all this time, I I'm I'm there, I'm getting there too. You know, I mean, I lost my sister four years ago to a drug overdose. And I've been as brave as I've ever been, but still I found lots of ways to dodge the grief. And there have been many, many moments where uh absolutely not, you do not have a seat at this table right now. I I literally think I might die if you stay here too long or at all. And and the the slow thawing out of can I just let myself feel what needs to be felt and then go on and and uh see who I can help. Can I just try? Can I try to do that? You know, um, God, that's taken a long time.

SPEAKER_01 51:33

Yeah. And I think, you know, having support, having someone witness us, you know, working with people who can create, help us create our own safety to feel like you said, what I shared may not be accessible for someone where they're at in their journey right now in this moment. But even hearing the beautiful way you reflected that back, just knowing that it is available, that it could be available, and where you

Grief, Forgiveness, And Joy Practice

SPEAKER_01 52:05

are at today might be to find the safe places where you can allow yourself to feel 1% of it for one minute and then shut it back down. Yeah. Just to keep realizing that it's a, I think we're, you know, we're here for as long as we're here and and we cannot, we can't put a fast forward button on the healing process. I think we can be brave and we can, you know, we can lean in at times that we feel uh we can access that level of courage to to kind of bust through another layer of it. But that's the biggest thing I've learned from my own grief process is that it it has the timeline that it has. And I, again, I'm not in control of any of that as much as I would have loved to be and thought I was. But the surrender of the timeline and just knowing that even along the way, and I don't know what completion feels like. I'm not there yet in terms of completion of even the layers that I've access to this point. Maybe there is no such thing as completion, you know, on this side of our lifetime, but you do experience deeper and deeper levels of freedom the further you go and the more you allow yourself to feel. And that in itself, I think creates momentum because you see that you can survive it, you can survive feeling it. And that not only do you survive it, but it gives you access. When when I went deeper into feeling the more uncomfortable emotions, it gave me access to feeling and experiencing more of the higher emotions that I wanted to feel. The more I allowed grief to be present, the more access I had to love.

SPEAKER_02 53:54

Hmm. Yes. And and to that, I will say one of these phrases in recovery early on caught my attention, but not until much, much later, when I used it in a different context, which is to try and match the level of calamity that you're in with equal amounts of serenity. And so when you fast forward and you find me in that marital crisis, and I indeed find out that my husband's having this extensive extramarital affair, and then I decide with my intuition that we're gonna try to reconcile, which was not at all what I thought I would ever want to do. I remember thinking, well, what's the reinterpretation of that line in this situation? And I said, Well, I had better match the level of resentment I feel with equal amounts of forgiveness, or I'm gonna be in trouble. I'll never get out from under this. And so I doubled down on forgiveness in all of my meditations, and that that and and it it helped. And when I lost my sister, it happened again. And I just thought if I don't match the level of grief I feel with equal amounts of joy as often as possible, I don't think I can survive this. I just don't think I can. So that's the other part of remembering, I think, too, right? It's like remembering the equal and opposite force to the hard thing that's in front of us, and that that that is in existence at the very same time, and so we can just remember how hard this thing is, or we can feel what's hard about it and acknowledge it and remember that as a result of feeling it and moving through it, we get the equal and opposite thing that comes along with it. We get to have that too. We might not feel it right now, but we will, we will, and we have to remember that it's so important, it's so beautiful. I could talk to you for 10 more hours. I I know that

Why Powerhouse Women Exists

SPEAKER_02 56:41

we we just have this time, but I I also know and I'd love for you to just be able to say something to this in case it helps you and your event. You have this unbelievable annual event. I don't know what it was birthed from. I would love to know your why and the evolution of it based on how you are living today, because it feels like there is this gathering of women who, of course, are finding you because they they in some ways want what you have energetically, right? And so, yes, there's a business component to this event that you throw called Powerhouse Women, but there's also very much a spiritual component, uh, a sense of, well, ladies, if we're gonna do the damn thing and we're gonna do it really big and really bold, can we can we love along the way? Can we lift up along the way? Can we grow and can we change and can we evolve? And can we become curious to question along the way? And can we talk about that too? It feels like your event is this sort of culmination of you. So if you could just speak for the last couple minutes of of how that came to be and then where it is today, and please let people know when and where the next one is and how people can find you. I would just absolutely love that.

SPEAKER_01 58:13

Um, thank you. That's so generous of you to give me the space to share about it. And you're right when you say it's it's a culmination very much of my own journey, but share it in a way that it's accessible for people wherever they are at on theirs. You know, I think the ones that like someone like you who's traveled a very similar journey, you're gonna pick up different things in what I'm sharing than someone who's there because they want their business to grow. And I am so grateful to be able, I think one of the gifts that I have is to be able to communicate things that are very deep in a way that people can hear for themselves, no matter how deep they've met themselves at this point. Right. I think that's that's why we travel this journey is to turn around and share the wisdom and and not judge where anyone else is at in their journey of that same path. And so the the short answer is when I was sharing about how a pattern that I recognized in myself, this is about 10 years ago, is that um I was feeling this restlessness inside. A big part of that was the fact that I was not truly challenging myself to step beyond what I knew I was capable of. And in this season of restlessness, one of the things that I ended up doing was saying yes to writing a self-published book that I really just said yes to in order to give myself a visceral experience of breaking through that. And I had to break through so many of my limiting beliefs and things that helped me back just in order to finish it. And I never planned for it to become anything more than just something I did for that end goal of growth. And it changed my life. I mean, I did, I transformed tremendously in the process, just leaning into this big idea I had that I wanted to share this message and going beyond where I would normally stop myself. And the the person who I had helped me with the self-publishing process said, Well, you should do a book launch event to celebrate this. And I thought, well, doing an event all about me sounds quite boring. And I really don't like that much attention on myself. So I'm not gonna do that. But I could see a world in which I held an event and brought in different speakers who also have stories of transforming themselves and essentially going after their big dreams, whether that's a passion project, whether it is a business. And so the very my the book is called Powerhouse Woman, just one. And it's all about getting out of your own way, really fulfilling your unique purpose on this planet while you're here. And then the event, I was like, Well, I guess I'll call it Powerhouse Women, plural. And that that was it. I mean, I wish I could say it was a better story than that. And I'll never forget it was a little half day event on a Sunday in 2017. So this will actually be our 10th annual event. And I waved everyone off at the end. I said, you know, thanks for coming. And people were like, well, when's the next one? What's next? And I was like, no, no, no, this is literally all I have for you. I have nothing else. Don't plan to do anything else. And, you know, there there was there was something that was birthed that day in in me and in this bigger conversation to the point where, you know, it's evolved today. Now we have hundreds of women who fly in from around the world. It's quite crazy to me to see what it's evolved into, but it's it's a space that I needed. It's a space where it's safe to be the biggest and fullest expression of myself to date. A room where no dream that I have is too big, no idea that I have is too crazy. It's met with, okay, cool, yeah, you should do that. And actually, let me help you by making this connection and you know, helping you along the way. Here's what I've learned, here's someone you should listen to, learn from. But also, it's not just about the highlights of these big things we're pursuing. It's a safe place to also talk about and be very real that when you're on this growth journey and entrepreneurship, you know, a lot of the community is entrepreneurs, not everybody, but it is a personal development plan disguised as a financial opportunity. You are going to meet yourself over and over and over again. So creating a safe space where we also talk about the challenges and how to support yourself through them. And you see the women who've created these incredible businesses also talking about the challenges they overcame like yesterday, last week, not just the ones that they overcame at the beginning of their journey. And it just creates this beautiful portal for you to step into a visceral experience that is part of the remembering. You will feel more deeply connected to that ultimate expression of yourself when you're in that space. Every part of it is designed to help you do that. And in doing so, you leave just remembering a little bit more deeply what you're here to do, even if that's a brand new concept to you. And you're like, I've again, I never thought of writing a book until all of a sudden that was in my reality and I started moving toward it. And it was, it was coming from something bigger than me. It was a, it was a force outside of myself that was like, no, this is the path that you're meant to walk because it's going to be a part of your remembering. So, you know, I just think we're all given those little nudges and we're given those little breadcrumbs to follow. And if you're anything like me, I wasn't raised in an environment. I didn't have a community around me who normalized that, normalized the ambition, the vision, but also normalized the fear. And creating it for myself was what I needed. But I think it's also been a big part of other people's journeys

Event Details And Closing Reflections

SPEAKER_01 1:03:50

because when we see that it's possible, a part of us remembers that we can do it too. And so the event happens every single year in August in Scottsdale, Arizona, where I live. And this year it's it's our 10th annual event. I think I said that, which is just really, really special. And it's the 14th, 15th, 16th, I believe, of August. It's the dates are on the website, so you can find it all there. But it's just powerhousewomenevent.com. And of course, I'm very biased in saying this, but it really is, it is so much more than you can see in a video or on a sales page. It's a feeling. You you just it's it's visceral, it's something that will impact you long after you leave the room, and that's what it's intended to be. Um, and it's my favorite weekend of the entire year.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:44

I think it's magnificent what you're doing. And I I also throw events, and that started also from my book launch, and uh it's a it's a big brave thing to do, and it it takes on a life of its own. And I will say, even just from standing where I'm standing, you can feel it even from the video. You, you know, it it and also by the time people listen to this episode and hear your heart and then get to what you're doing, it's extremely clear that what you're bringing to that event is who you are and the same energy that you brought to this this podcast, which is you know, not not typical at a lot of events, it's just not necessarily what you get. Um, this merger of strategy and spirituality. And I think it's magnificent, and it's just another testament that our hardest things really do become the things that change the world if we're brave enough to walk through them. And we we at some point become. If we don't give up on ourselves the lighthouse. Hmm. And that's a miracle. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:08

I just love talking to you today. I love getting to know you. Likewise, thank you so much for this beautiful conversation. You're so welcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:20

Awaken up, I hear the desperation call. That's in my back and in my head against the wall.