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Struggling to write sales copy that sells?
You're not alone. It's a challenge for even the most seasoned marketers, and it's one of the biggest roadblocks to getting more leads, sales, and revenue.
But we've got some proven strategies to help you get on track! In this episode, our guest, Brittany McBean, a conversion copywriter, breaks down exactly what makes a sales page good or bad and what you can do to ensure your next landing page converts like a boss!
Brittany McBean is a launch strategist & conversion copywriter who specializes in anti-sleazy, ethical, high-converting copy for online course creators & educators.
This episode is full of insights and actionable tips to help you create better sales pages, increase conversion rates, and grow your business. So strap in because we're about to drop some serious copywriting knowledge!
Specifically, this episode highlights the following themes:
Links from this episode:
Want to give your podcast the boost it needs to stay ahead of the competition? Check out honestpodcasts.com and take the first step toward achieving your podcasting goals!
And if you have a guest in mind who you think would be a great fit for this show, drop me a line at hello@honestpodcasts.com.
Subscribe and leave a comment over on the YouTube channel to join the cool kids club :)
Struggling to write sales copy that sells?
You're not alone. It's a challenge for even the most seasoned marketers, and it's one of the biggest roadblocks to getting more leads, sales, and revenue.
But we've got some proven strategies to help you get on track! In this episode, our guest, Brittany McBean, a conversion copywriter, breaks down exactly what makes a sales page good or bad and what you can do to ensure your next landing page converts like a boss!
Brittany McBean is a launch strategist & conversion copywriter who specializes in anti-sleazy, ethical, high-converting copy for online course creators & educators.
This episode is full of insights and actionable tips to help you create better sales pages, increase conversion rates, and grow your business. So strap in because we're about to drop some serious copywriting knowledge!
Specifically, this episode highlights the following themes:
Links from this episode:
Want to give your podcast the boost it needs to stay ahead of the competition? Check out honestpodcasts.com and take the first step toward achieving your podcasting goals!
And if you have a guest in mind who you think would be a great fit for this show, drop me a line at hello@honestpodcasts.com.
Brittany McBean 0:00
I don't believe that persuasion actually works anymore. Empathy has absolutely replaced persuasion from a human evolution standpoint, from a psychological standpoint, from a marketing standpoint, empathy is the new black and it's sexy. It is what connects people to use. This is the most effective way to helping someone make a change or to allowing someone to make a change that might be really hard for them. I don't really approach things with persuasion, I do think it's about empathy. I think it's about entering in the conversation that they're already having in their head. It's about giving them the information that they need to make a confident decision.
Travis Albritton 0:37
Welcome back to the Honest Marketing Podcast where you learn proven strategies to grow your business without selling your soul. And in the crazy global economic recession, shutdown fears, what the heck is going on, kind of what we're living in copywriting is so so important as a business owner, knowing how to write words online, that help you connect with your ideal customer, relate to them in an authentic way, and help them along the process and the journey of solving problems in their life. And being a guide in that process. That is what's going to separate businesses that not only survive in this period, but thrive and grow from those that use outdated, manipulative tactics that aren't working anymore, and you don't want to be in that position. So that's why I'm super excited to be able to share this interview in conversation I had with my friend Brittany McBean, who was a phenomenal copywriter and shares the ethos of this podcast really showing up to serve. But doing it from the mindset of how do we make money? How is businesses can we support ourselves, support our employees, enjoy a profit, grow something healthy, that we love to do and meets the needs of our customers? So we're gonna talk about how important getting to know your audiences. We're gonna talk about crafting an offer or a promise that really helps connect you with the people you're trying to serve? And then what does it look like to write sales copy? How do you create a sales page? What are the pieces you need to have in place? How do you speak to objections and overcome them? What what is persuasive? What is manipulative? What is empathetic? All those things are more recovering this episode, so make sure you stick around to the very end where I highlight my number one takeaway, but without further ado, let's dive in. So Brittany, first things first, what is copywriting? Not copywriting like trademarking something, so somebody else can't use it. But like the act of writing copy, like how would you describe that?
Brittany McBean 2:32
Loaded question. There is a marketer, her name was Judith Charles, I say was I'm honestly not sure if she is alive or dead. I think this was a while ago, but she has a quote, this was a copywriter is a salesperson with a keyboard or like the salesperson behind the typewriter, something like that. I like that a lot. Because I think it kind of just, I don't want to be reduced to a salesperson. But I think that that does kind of sum up the the act and art of writing copy is about using your words to make money. And then I think the next level of that is then like strategy and messaging strategy and marketing strategy and in copy is like the last part of that, but it's also a part of that and sometimes copywriters do both like I consider myself a strategist. But if we're just talking like copywriting, it is putting words on paper that are meant to make you money. So that doesn't in for me, like include like content, like blog, social stuff that isn't copy, it's just a little difference, if that makes sense.
Travis Albritton 3:37
Right. That the intent is different. When you write a blog versus a social media post or something like that. You're not, you're not trying to trigger a sale on the back end of that post necessarily.
Brittany McBean 3:46
Not yeah, not usually. Right.
Travis Albritton 3:48
So thinking about copy, because, again, this is the way that you described it, I think is really, really smart is copywriting is words to help you sell something. And the way that I've always thought about it is copywriting is about persuasion. But that that can also be a loaded word persuasion. Yeah. Because it can be persuasion as manipulation, or persuasion as into like really excited, confident, encouragement, knowing you can help the other person. So how do you how do you actually write, copy and be a good human being? And I say that kind of like tongue in cheek but seriously, I think when it comes to copywriting and sales pages, and performance optimization, and all those kinds of things, it's so easy to default towards Well, the numbers tell us that we should change this word to like increase this conversion without really considering the downstream effects of the impact it has on the person even visiting the website. So So kind of walk me through like what that looks like to create copy that is persuasive that does work, but also have those firm boundaries and filters for what you will and won't say.
Brittany McBean 4:59
Yeah, I I have a lot of thoughts on this. And I'll just let you ask questions. So we can get as detailed as you want. Because I do think that there are some very specific, like tangible practices you can do or not do. But from a high level. And I know you've talked about this in some of your other episodes with some of your guests, just like how things have changed. You know, we look at the Mad Men era, the 50s. And then like, the like, everybody's got money, and we're all spending it in the 80s. And, and there's just, we've seen a lot of like variations on a theme. And I think that that theme has ended and a new one has popped up. And what worked didn't work. And it's not because we now need to try new things and manipulate people differently. It's because our audience is, is really smart. They've gained a degree of critical thinking about their advertising, they're a little more aware of, of what goes on in the capitalistic machine, not everybody, but a lot of people. And also we have more options so they can be more discerning. So I don't use a lot of old school tactics, because they just don't work. And I think that's where it's easy to do like not this, but that right, like that's, that's a little easier. But talking from a more high level strategy perspective, how we come up with the words that do make money, and I'm a launch strategist and copywriter. So I work specifically on like funnels and launches of digital products, courses, group programs, masterminds like that whole, like online business world, and it's very, very different than then, you know, like E-com, or selling a product or something that's either like, a lower ticket decision and a low risk decision. But copywrite converts really, really well, usually two to three times industry standards. And I think it is because not that I'm like, the smartest, best copywriter in the world. But it is because the approach is not copy first. So when you're looking at a marketing strategy, whether it's a campaign, whether it's a brand, whether it's just a product, whatever, when you're trying to figure out your messaging strategy, copies the last thing, so it's always audience offer copy. So audience is first and the most important thing it is more important than your offering your copy, then offer is more important than the copy and the copy is last. So we say that copy is usually can contribute to like 20% of the success of your marketing audiences. 40% authors 40%. And that gives you that gives you the totality of your conversion. So what we like to do, when I say audience, there's a couple different ways of looking at this. So one way to describe that like formula like audience offer copy is list offer copy. So the actual people looking at your offer matter more than the offer. And then the actual offer matters more than the copy. The reason I say audiences, because it's not just about starting with the right eyes on the on the page, it's, it's understanding who those eyes need to be. And then reverse engineering everything from there. So when we're writing a project, you know, typically I'm delivering, you know, a funnel with well over 100 pages typed and copied because it's a top to bottom, you know, Facebook ads to reg page to all all of all things a long form sales page, email sequence. We're starting in the research in and it is all external, like, Yes, I study my clients brand voice and their values and their priorities and their offer and their story like that is important, but not nearly as important to the audience. So I tell my clients, like I'm an asset for your business, like I am going to deliver you things that can make you money even after this project, but I'm your audience's advocate. I'm not your advocate. Not here, like I'm here to make you money, but I'm not here to say what you want to say right? It's a balance, obviously, I'm collaborating with them. I have a great relationship with my clients. I'm not like forgetting you I'm doing what I want. So starting the process is we're diving into the research and we're studying the audience really understanding in a very, like deep and nuanced level. Who they are what they're actively experiencing what they have experienced in the past what they've tried in the past, you know, all of these things that really goes five layers past your avatar, like I'm like we're we're not talking to emojis here like we're like sins characters that are just like standing still and Bob and right like they're not advertisers, they're people and so it's, it's listening to them and in getting that critical mass of information. So we're not just looking at anecdotal evidence or we're not just listening to one person being like, I'm changing everything right? It's like getting that that data at mass analyzing it. This is obviously something like we do it. I don't necessarily think every business owner can spend time doing this, but letting those patterns rise to the top and understanding like what are the top things that most people in this audience are actively expressing struggling with wanting frustrated by, jaded by, let down by, all all of those things not so that we can like twist the knife, but just understand them right and be able to meet them where they are. So then we look at that, and then we say, Okay, next is offer, right? Like we got, we got audiences. So we know that these are the people we're talking to, we have clarity, we can, we can actually look at the pie charts of what's going on with these people. And, and then run the offer through that filter. So then it's we're looking at whether whether that offer is our website, because that encompasses like our whole brand, whether it is like, alright, we're really trying to get people on our blog, we're trying to get people on our YouTube or, or usually a product that we're trying to get people to buy, right? So then we say does this offer, actually meet them where they are, and we optimize it through that lens. So rather than like, these are the things that I'm the most excited about, these are the things that took us the longest to put together, these are the features that like me and my team nerd out about are those features important to them? What like, if you look at the top things are struggling with what are the things in your offer that are actually going to like address that first, like leave with those the other stuff can like, doesn't need to find its way into copy and it can just be there right or like, we don't need to use the technical jargon, if they really just need to know like, this water bottle is powder coated, so you don't drop it cool, great. Wonderful, right? So it's, it's optimizing the offer, whether it's optimizing the positioning, or actually changing the offer, like for my clients with digital products a lot of time. So we're saying like, take out this extra information, it's actually really confusing, overwhelming, or restructure this differently or add in PDFs or add in the audio so that it's more accessible, whatever. So then, then you know, your people, then you've optimized your offer, and then you go, okay, we're gonna write the words to those people about this offer that they're actively asking for, and the coffee becomes a lot easier. And then once you do the like audience offer copy process to get your copy out into the world, then when it's time to optimize, like you said, like looking at your sales page, you don't start optimizing the copy, because you already wrote the copy based on what the people were saying, you go back and you start all over again and look at your list. Is it the right eyes? Like Have I got the right eyes through this funnel? Are these the right people that we're speaking to, if not, leave the copy there. Let's go optimize the audience. Let's change your targeting, let's, whatever whatever that is, and then you kind of start the process all over again. So that was a very long winded way of saying copy is really important. Only if you've done the other stuff.
Travis Albritton 12:34
Yeah, well, and I love that you laid that out, because now we can walk step by step through kind of like a holistic approach and process to as a business owner, as somebody who's on the marketing team, thinking about writing persuasive copy. And I want to start at the end there. Because there is this natural inclination to think if I just discover the secret words, that magically generate more profit, and put them in the right order, in the right color, and have and make the button the right size. All of my problems go away. Right? And it's a very easy trap to fall into. It's like, oh, well, that's the easiest thing to fix. We'll just change these words will change these sentences and will change the structure. But like you said, if people are coming there, and they're not the right people, or if they're not even connecting with what you're trying to offer them. There's there's no secret cord that David plays the Lord, that's going to save your sales page.
Brittany McBean 13:30
Nope. I mean, copy formulas are a great place to start when you're trying to like structure something. I think a lot of them are outdated. And a lot of them like even the most popular one. Problem agitate solution like it is dependent on you twisting the knife and someone's trauma, not a fan of that one like not, you know, but copywriting techniques are great if you're not feeling super skilled or strong or experienced or knowledgeable in that area. But it's kind of like a spork like it, it seems like it's gonna, like fix all your problems, but it breaks really easily.
Travis Albritton 14:07
Yeah. So, so let's, let's go back to the beginning, talking about audience, then early, optimizing that part of the process. What are some of the things that you do when you're trying to get to know somebody who would benefit from the business that you are you've been hired to write copy for? Because I think that's a valuable skill, regardless of whether you're writing copy or not. As a business owner, if you don't know, the problems that your customers and your prospects are dealing with, this can be very difficult to build a profitable business. Because at the end of the day, it's a value exchange, right? They're giving you money, because they perceive that the value of the thing that you do is worth more than the money that they're giving you. Right? And so, so talk through that, like what is your approach when you're trying to get to know someone's customers, the people behind the product, and in starting to understand the things in their life they wish were better?
Brittany McBean 14:57
Yeah, I think market research Like, it's a broad term, it sounds overwhelming, or it can sound really easy if you're like, I just do this thing, but I think it is the most important thing a business can have in place as a as a system and as like a way of like talking to its people. But you also have to go back and look at the look at the answers look at the data. So I'll just kind of share our process with our clients. Because we've really, we have a very like proprietary process. And it's, it's not that it's not custom for our clients, because everything is but it's like we know how to get the information we need. And then and then we go from there. So we're looking at three different areas of like audiences, or three different ways of collecting information really. And in it like a 12 week project for a funnel, like three fourths of it and spent in strategy. And then like three fourths of that is spent in research. So the three places that we're collecting data, or the ways we're collecting data is one through a survey. And I'll break that down a little bit more. But that's really where we get like the critical mass. And I literally do make those pie those messaging pie charts that I that I talked about, because you can really analyze the data when you have multiple answers to the same, same question. So surveys and then one on one interviews, is how we really connect with our our clients existing audience. So whether it's a buyer or non buyer, we're also sitting down face to face obviously can't do this at scale, but usually doing like six to eight interviews with people that our client has identified as like this is the perfect person this person is ideal to I want to work with again and again and again. Maybe some non buyers, who they they've called out or just people that we've identified from the surveys. So we're doing those one on one interviews, and that really gives you that more like humanistic slice of life. Just in more nuanced perspective, you know, when you get to see someone's body language, and like the words they're saying might be really heavy, but they're not reacting to it. So like, how strongly is this affecting them? Or like, wow, they just like their, their voice just caught talking about like, the most simple thing like what you know, like, you really get to understand what's really not that I'm trying to make people cry, but like what's really going on with them, right, when you're watching the body language, you're listening to them. And then the third way is a cold audience data mine. So I think this is what most people think of when they think of market research. So this is saying, Okay, we got our audience, our clients audience are our, sorry, I'll stop talking about like what I do, we've got our audience, the people who are in our world on our email list, follow us that we can identify, what are the people saying what conversations are they having before they're in our world. That's both top of funnel like information and messaging that we can grab, and also just kind of understanding the market a little bit. So when you're doing the cold audience, data mining, you're not diving into your existing audience. But this is where you are reading those Amazon book reviews, looking at Facebook groups versus going to Facebook group into a search or whatever or like ask a question, great, that works just so that's for like cold audience. podcast interviews, YouTube comments, blog, comments, Reddit forums, there's a goldmine out there in the internet, where people are talking about their problems. So you could pick as a business owner, you could pick one of those things, and get a ton of information, just know where that information is going in your funnel. But when we look at all of all three of those together, we're able to put not just the messaging hierarchy, not just like, the things that we're leading with the things that we're using to optimize audience, but then, where the messages go in the funnel to really like, enter the conversation people are actively having in their head at that point in the funnel. So I'm happy to dive deeper into any of those. But those are the three areas that I'm specifically looking at.
Travis Albritton 18:49
So it seems like you're kind of casting a wide net, to gather a lot of information. And then you're filtering the useful stuff, and saying, Okay, this is really good. Or this is a trend, like two thirds of respondents all said this. So that's most likely the key thing that people are dealing with, what are the other things that you're looking for? When trying to identify messaging points are things that are gonna be really valuable for crafting the offer and writing the copy to connect with those people? What are the kinds of things that you pick up? What are the kinds of things that you look for, to kind of like bookmark and say, Okay, we definitely want to say this, we definitely want to address this, we definitely want to speak to this.
Brittany McBean 19:30
Yeah, it's really hard not to approach data gathering with your lens and your perspective. Like it's really, really hard to be objective. And so one thing that I think it's really important to do is to make assumptions and then completely abandon them. Like you cannot be doing confirmation bias research. And also, sometimes you're like, oh, based on what I know about our market, or based on our experience, or based on like what I've seen across the board, like we didn't get this information but like could maybe make this educated assumption. But you know, like you said, like you laid out just the difference between trends versus something that's really interesting, I might see something that's really interesting. And and that's like the only thing that sticks out in my head, the whole the whole project and like, You got to let that lens go. So I think you're we're able to find a balance of both by, the surveys is honestly, I think the most helpful place for me to approach it objectively, because what we do is, we ask very specific questions, addressing those things that I mentioned the beginning, just what's going on in their life, what they're feeling what they've used before, what they're actively struggling with what's like happening right now. And then, when we're looking at those answers, then we can start to identify the pattern. So like, we're on a spreadsheet saying like, okay, this person mentioned x, or maybe they didn't like, use that word, but this is the type of thing they're talking about. Okay, like, that's, that's a pattern. Great. How many people mentioned that pattern, and then we're able to say, just tally it up, like, Wow, 58 people said, this one word, or this one thing was the the most frustrating part of this problem right now, only two people said this other part was the most frustrating. It doesn't mean those two people don't matter. It's it like in terms of messaging hierarchy. That's not, that's not what we're using to lead with the messaging. That's not really what we're using to optimize the funnel. And a lot of times, that's the thing that, like the CEOs are, like, that's what people struggle with the most. And we're like, oh, look, things have changed, right? So that that's where we are able to be like, you know, 95% of people are like, 64% of people said this. So like, that's number one. And then like, 37% of people said this, so that's number two. And then when it comes to looking for that, those like, really interesting, like juicy pieces, we will we have a whole spreadsheet just called like sticky copy. And that's the when the word somebody use how they describe something. I mean, people on the internet are brilliant, like, I, I read Amazon reviews, and like, you're a better copywriter than I will ever be like, I recently got a robot vacuum. And I bought it because of the reviews. I was like, my people use this like these people are witty and sarcastic, I need to get this vacuum. But you know, is that really interesting copy that, that you can kind of set to the side of like, I love how someone described this, or or this is how they're describing that thing. But then you have to go match it back up with the hierarchy. Because if somebody said something that was like, super, super, super funny or witty or interesting, but it didn't show up anywhere in the research. And like, maybe that like goes into the content somewhere just because you enjoy it, but it's not going into the messaging hierarchy. So for me, it really is looking at those patterns, and then quantifying those patterns to figure out what's making its way into the copy and what kind of hits the cutting room floor for now.
Travis Albritton 22:43
Yeah, and that is one thing that that I love about the internet, it truly is undefeated. When it comes to just brilliance and human nature on display.
Brittany McBean 22:54
Oh my gosh, like the like sugarfree gummy bears the wolf shirt, like I could go down those Amazon book reviews all day long. And I will like, I'll copy and paste. Like, that's brilliant. I need to like, say something as funny as that. I'll remind myself how dumb I am by looking and how smart other people are.
Travis Albritton 23:08
Yeah, well, and it can feel like, not like you're cheating. But it can feel like you're not truly writing copy. But the most persuasive copy I've ever seen is where they're basically saying your own words back to you.
Brittany McBean 23:21
It's a bit of a cheat code. And like, to me all the hard work is everything that comes before that right. And the copy is the easiest part, when you know what to say. And sometimes people tell you what to say with their own words. And that's really great. You can't just copy and paste. It's like this is this is where it gets so tricky. Because there are times where like, my clients say something over and over again that people aren't saying until they're in their world like this is where it gets tricky, because like they're like, oh, all of my students say this. I'm like, Well, you gave him that vocabulary. And that's okay, that's great. We can't use that vocabulary top of funnel. But that is something they're connecting with. So keep saying that, like, absolutely. But that's not their words, or it's like they've, somebody maybe has expressed something to us that or we've been able to look at the information and like Intuit like a next level. And it's like, that's really, really, really, really painful and like people aren't ready to acknowledge that or they don't, they don't want you to know that about them before they really trust you. So like, even though we know that's happening, it's not making its way into copy because it's either like triggering or it's just a little too, like Big Brother like no thanks. I'm not ready to talk about like, like, how my weight loss actually affects my life. I just want to talk about how my jeans fit. I'm talking about that from a personal level. I'm not here like pushing diet culture. So yeah, it is it is this balance and then you know, sometimes we really just need to say what we believe they need to hear. And sometimes we use their words and sometimes we use our words because if you can if you can listen to someone, like really listen to someone and then summarize or reflect back what they're saying in a more concise or precise way, then they're like, yes, that's exactly how I feel. I didn't even know to say that. But that's exactly it. So that doesn't mean that like, you've got to take all that into account like those. That's literally my full time job. But I think that there is some permission like, well, nobody said this word. But then also, like, if nobody's ever said that word, it doesn't go top of funnel because nobody knows what that means, you know?
Travis Albritton 25:33
Yeah, well, and, and I want to kind of like, pull on that, that string a little bit about connecting with your, your customers at that level. Because I think when it comes to a business sense, there can be this veneer of professionalism, of like, like, at an arm's length, I'm a business, you're a prospect. And it's like, very, it's very logically oriented, right? I sell a widget and you need a widget. So let's just make this happen. But what you're really speaking to is, is approaching sales and marketing, from a stance of empathy. And you as a business, embodying the word, embodying something that can serve and help a human being another complex person with all kinds of things going on. Right? And then it's not just this one thing that you solve that they need. It's, there's so many other things going on. So so when you are thinking through audience offer, copy, like, how do you how do you really embody that mindset, without it just being like, hey, let's all throw a pity party together, like still having that position of like, I actually can help I can step in and actually make this better for you. But I also want you to know that I understand and relate to you on a personal level. How do you, how do you, how do you strike that balance in your approach to empathizing, and then also in writing?
Brittany McBean 26:56
I don't believe that persuasion actually works anymore. And that's never it doesn't mean like, like, I think when you say that word, I think we mean the same, the same thing. But I think that a lot of times, we're like what's going to persuade people the most, you know what I mean? Like, empathy has absolutely replaced persuasion from, like, just human evolution standpoint, from a psychological standpoint, from a marketing standpoint, like it is empathy is the new black and it's sexy like it is, it is what connects people to us. So I kind of have this working theory. And I try really hard not to present like my anecdotal evidence or theories, as fact, because unless I've done a peer reviewed study, which I'm not going to be doing anytime soon, like, it's not fact. But I've, my husband's a therapist, and he, specifically, and therapists are not there to manipulate you, they're not there to make you change or make you do anything. And they're really not there to give advice if your therapist is giving you advice you have about therapist, but he's specifically us he works in substance use and trauma and addiction. And he uses a modality that is really a way of having a conversation with someone that helps them figure out what they want, that draws out their values and their priorities, and then helps them make a plan to change based on that. So when he started learning this, I was like, really confused, like I was like, based on research, like actual research, not my idea of research, like peer reviewed actual studies in the therapeutic world, like this is the most if and it's very empathy based like this is the most effective way to helping someone make a change or to allowing someone to make a change that might be really hard for them. And a lot of times our buyers, clients, students audiences are like, actively seeking out making a change. And this entire modality is completely antithetical to telling people what to do, to manipulating them with their emotions to believing that, you know, better than them. And yet, to tricking them, you know, to pressuring them to persuading them like like, they literally tell you like persuading someone is the fastest way to destroy this process, this change process and but then I look at like, the, the six, what are they called, like the six influence weapons of influence, you know, that we all use the urgency and scarcity, the social proof, the law of reciprocity, and it's all about manipulating someone, like, if I tell someone, I'll give you this and you feel obligated to give me this, that's manipulation. But, but that's what most of our sales tactics are still based on. So I kind of had this crisis of like, wait a minute, this is what research says like actually works with people who are wanting to make a change and it's actually faster and easier and better and in their best interest. But like, this is what all the marketing says, and all the, you know, the advertising knowledge that we have, like, where's the disconnect? And I was actually like workshopping this with my husband. He was like, well, like, when did when was all of that stuff written? I was like, Well, honestly, mainly the 50s, you know, like, Mad Men and then kind of like, revised in the 80s. And it was like, Okay, well, what were they selling, and it was like, cigarettes, Thais, housewife dresses, like, like products, right? Things that, that either you were addicted to, or that related to status, or like the risk was kind of low, and most of us are not selling cigarettes and ties. And if we are, it's like, a tie that was made by someone in a disadvantaged community that actually like goes back into their community, like there's something deeper behind it. But, you know, specifically for my clients, a lot of times, they're offering a change, a transformation, whether it's a $200 transformation, or a $20,000 transformation, it's still a big change for people. And I think that there is a really, really, really big difference between manipulating someone to make a one time purchase at, you know, like, the dollar bin at target versus if I buy this course or this program, I'm committing to a different version of myself. And that's where I think that's where I think the breakdown is. So I don't really approach things with persuasion, I do think it's about empathy, I think it's about entering in the conversation that they're already having in their head, you know, and, and you, it's about giving them the information that they need to make a confident decision. So when we say like urgency and scarcity, I kind of think that's BS, I don't do it, I won't use countdown timers, or I mean, my clients can do what they want, like, I won't use them in my stuff. Because that triggers anxiety, it triggers a fight flight or freeze response. And a lot of times, you're gonna have like refund requests, because people are like, I didn't actually want this, I just like, my heart was beating really fast. And I hit by, you know, but saying, hey, after this day, this pricing won't be available to you, if you'd rather wait, if you need to save him, wait, you have that information. But if you want to save that money, this is the time or the cart does close on this date. This is just information, we're giving them information, and reflecting back their experience enough to let them know that you see them. You hear them, like you understand them and a deep level and you're validating them, you're not trying to change them. You're not saying you can't afford not to do this, you can't say do you think lazy people do this? No, like only like the top 5% do this? Or what are you going to do with your life, you know, that is so manipulative and honestly verbally abusive, you know, but saying like, hey, it's, it's really difficult to make a change. And especially when you've tried things before, that didn't work for you. Maybe you were missing some tools, maybe some things weren't available to you before, maybe that wasn't the right time, maybe now is like only you can make that decision. But in order for you to make that decision, I want to give you the information. So these are the resources or tools inside of this product or this program that you may not have found before. And they're going to solve these specific problems for you. Because because of this or, or like, these are my values, if that's a good fit for you, then like well, you're probably going to work really well together. If that's not a good fit for you, we're not going to work well together. Right? It's, it's just about giving them the information they need to make that decision based on what matters to them. And then structuring that information so that you're meeting them where they are, you know.
Travis Albritton 33:36
Yeah, and I mean, I just think of the classic sales movie quote, you know, always be closing
Brittany McBean 33:45
MVC, baby.
Travis Albritton 33:46
MVC, and, and I remember for me, like, earlier on in my entrepreneurial journey, and I'm not saying that I'm beyond this now, but I remember really struggling with, okay, yeah, I want to practice empathy. But I also need to, like, sell this thing, like, I need to put food on the table. And so it's very easy.
Brittany McBean 34:04
To see them as opposites.
Travis Albritton 34:05
Yeah, it's very easy to feel like there's a conflict between my my desire to sell you something and your desire to buy something. And the tendency is always to go towards our own felt needs, because those are the ones we feel the strongest. But the irony being like, once you kind of let go of like that kind of manipulative control of like, how do I force people to take the action that I want them to take for my benefit? It's crazy how that counterintuitively, just like opens up so many more opportunities to help people because then they're not just buying whatever you're offering, but they're coming in with the right mindset, the right expectations, and the right attitude of partnering with you to help them with the change. Instead of always questioning like, can you really do what you said that you could do for me and not personally but that self doubt of, you know, I bought this because he was really use the right secret words on his sales. page. But I'm not bought in. I'm not enthusiastic about this. I'm doing it because I just responded to how I was feeling in the moment. And how shifting away from that manipulation towards the empathy can not just help you make more sales, but also, like, make the whole process of running your business and you're interacting with your customers that much better.
Brittany McBean 35:20
Yeah, because refund requests are not profitable. People are like whiny and needy and try to suck all your time and complain and like fill up your support inbox and fill up your support teams time. That's not profitable, doesn't mean those are bad people, it means that they're the wrong people for your offer. And no testimonials, no case studies because people didn't, weren't ready to make the transformation. They didn't participate. They weren't the right person, they didn't actually have kind of like the prerequisite stuff they needed. They weren't in the right place. That's not profitable, right? Like it's it's so easy to see them empathy and profitability is opposites. Because it's what we've been taught for so long, you cannot read an advertising book that is recommended from the top, top top top people and find like, empathy anywhere in there. I mean, even honestly, I forget who it was, it was probably like Dan Kennedy, or like one of those like Mad Men guys that said, like, the customer is an idiot, the customer is your wife. And that's like the closest we get to empathy, but I'm like, misogyny, patriarchy, heteronormative. And also like, still kind of calling your wife an idiot. It's just you like this idiot. Not a fan of that. But it's like the closest we get to, to empathy. But the reality is like, our audience is so much smarter. If they're younger, Gen Z is so aware of the machine. They know that like corporate as tied up in politics, they know that capitalism runs everything in our life. And they're they're looking for, they're looking for a reason to advocate for or against something. Older generations millennials, or Gen Z generation. Gen X, you know, we, we've seen all the cheesy Superbowl ads, we've seen all of the like, direct mail, when $1,000, $10,000, you know what I mean? Like, and, and even now, after the big boom of 2020, when everyone and their mother launched to us using one in very one very specific style of live launching and webinars all from like the same program from the same people. The audience has seen it all and they are skeptical. They know, they know that if they're signing up for a webinar, you are going to pitch them. And the whole time they're like I want this information. Is it worth it? Is it not worth it to hear the pitch? And the whole time? They're like, what's the catch? How gross Are you like they're, they're willing to see they're like, I think I know what this is, I kind of know what this is, I'm willing to see. But like, if you pretend like the webinar is not a webinar, and then pitch them at the end, give it to like, that's gross. Or if you're like, Hey, join my mastermind, but you have to spend 30 minutes on a sales call with me before I'll even tell you the price. That's gross. People like that doesn't respect my time. Like, if I can't afford it, I don't want to talk to you. And if I can afford it, then just tell me so I can know that I can afford it. The amount of jaded that people are is so high that when you just speak to them like a human and just tell them the truth. This is when the cart closes. Hey, guess what the cart actually doesn't close. So this may not be right for you right now. Or like, the cart doesn't close. But this bonus goes away or like this bonus doesn't go away because you really need it, you're gonna get it no matter what it's it's in the program, like whatever that thing is just actually telling them, Hey, you're on a webinar, I'm going to pitch you. And also I'm going to teach you the thing you signed up for here it is, hey, thanks for signing up for my email list. Just let you know I email you once a week unless we're like watching a program or marketing something and then you're probably going to get like an email a day for like seven days, but it's only going to be once or twice a year. And you can like opt out if you want just tell people what to expect rather than like trying to be the wizard of us, you know, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain it it doesn't work anymore. So it's not even that they're opposites. It's that like, turns out being a better human also makes better sales because people are smarter and the tricks just don't work. Price stacking, stop it. No one believes that your $500 course is actually worth $20,000 and of the generosity of your heart, you're giving it to us for $5000 or $500. No one believes you you look like an idiot because you're trying to make an idiot out of us. Not everyone is an incredibly deep, critical thinker. I think that the capitalistic machine relies on us not being critical thinkers and relies on us, pretending like values don't exist or pretending like impact doesn't exist or pretending like I don't know, just kind of accepting things the way they are. And I think that that's something that like we as marketers are responsible for teaching people to do more. So yeah, some of the tricks will still work, there will be people who have experienced trauma and get triggered and make a decision. There'll be people who may not have deep critical thinking skills and are bought in, even if they end up really disappointed, but then they're just going to assume that that was them and not you. It's not you, Tony Robbins, you know what you're doing? I'm the idiot here, right? There are people with intellectual disabilities that are making decisions online, because you've like, triggered their cortisol, you know. I just think that, like, on the aggregate, being a better human and, and advocating for your people and listening to them is going to be more profitable, and less of a hassle. And it's going to help you stay in the market longer, you know?
Travis Albritton 40:55
Well, and it's, it's so much more fun to be in business when you're not constantly doing timeshare pitches to people, you know, which is essentially what webinars have become. Alright. Yeah, for this, this. I remember my grandparents, they were trying to, they saw this opportunity. And they were like, okay, yeah, if we go to this, this timeshare pitch, seven piece luggage set. Like that's pretty valuable. And that was like, it was like a, you know, a little bathroom kit with like a nail clipper and stuff at the end. It's like, Okay, that wasn't the $200 thing. We're imagining it was $5.
Brittany McBean 41:26
Oh, man. Yeah, yeah.
Travis Albritton 41:29
And it's oh, so like, actually just telling the truth is a better way to go. Imagine that. And yeah, turns out, it's also easier to just tell people the truth, I didn't have to keep track of all of your persuasiveness, and what am I promised over there?
Brittany McBean 41:43
Yeah, right. Like they're just ending up disappointed and mad at you and leaving a bad review? Like, that doesn't get anybody anywhere?
Travis Albritton 41:51
No, not at all. All right, so we've talked a lot about audience, which I think is really great, because people will come and listen to this episode, one cop copy advice, and we're gonna...
Brittany McBean 42:03
Oh, my gosh, we pulled the bait.
Travis Albritton 42:05
And yes, we did.
Brittany McBean 42:06
We are the bad guys.
Travis Albritton 42:06
So we're gonna deliver, we're gonna make sure that we deliver on some coffee strategies now.
Brittany McBean 42:13
Let's do it.
Travis Albritton 42:14
So that way, you cannot accuse us of doing the same thing that we're advocating against. So so let's talk about sitting down and sitting down to write copy. And let's assume that the offer, which is essentially the promise of what your product does for somebody, not that you sell timeshares? Or that you have a planner or a course, but like what is the promise, what's, what's the thing that you're saying your product can deliver for the other person, let's say those two things are matched up well, when you're sitting down to write copy, specifically in a kind of like a sales perspective. What does that process look like? What's the mindsets? What are the things that you make sure that you hit? How does that conversation unfold? And kind of what are the sections that and the things that people need to check off to make sure that they're having a full conversation?
Brittany McBean 43:01
Yeah, that's a really good question. I'm gonna do what I've done and not start with copy yet. But I am gonna answer your question. But like, once you have that information, then you do need to say, Okay, what's the actual strategy? What are the mechanics? So like, for example, in my world, like, are we doing a launch? Or Evergreen? And then what are all the assets? You know? Are we using Facebook ads? Or are we just writing to our email list for all of our existing leads? Are we doing a webinar? Are we doing a challenge? Or is this like, literally an email only launch? Like, what are the assets? Because then you need to figure out, okay, when I'm talking to these people, where are they so that I can make sure that like, you're not saying, here's my message, and like vomiting it all over your marketing strategy? You're saying, okay, if they're at A, how do I help them move from A to B? And then once they're at B, how do I help them move from B to C? It's like these little micro shifts rather than like, alright, A to Z, let's go like, boom, like that. I would like $15,000. Nice to meet you. Thank you so much, right? So like, for example, if you're if you're running paid ads to a cold audience, well, then we're specifically going back to that data mine that cold audience data mines, okay, we're pulling like our copy and our messages from that, because they haven't met us yet. They're not in our world. Whereas like, once we're writing to our email list, then we're starting to look a little bit more at that warmer audience. And it's like, have they been on our list for a long time? Alright, let's look at like the buyers and the non buyers in the in the one on one interviews, or like, do they just get on our list? So like, Okay, let's look at those like those non buyers and the cold audience and kind of like, meet them there. Right. So that's one part is kind of laying out your whole campaign and saying, like, what conversation am I having on the large scale? And then where does that go at each point in the funnel? Um, when we're writing a funnel, we always always start with the sales page. That's the very first thing we write because that is, it's the longest piece of copy. It's a thing that happens right before a buying decision. I mean, the checkout cart really is but like, that's where the messaging goes to live, like the heart of the copy the heart of the messaging. And so when I'm writing a sales page I'm usually assuming that the people coming to the sales page are problem aware, five stages of awareness is a whole nother conversation. I have a YouTube video on it. I'm sure your like your have talked to people about it. But that is like one of the most important tool belts you can have when you're writing copy is the five stages of awareness.
Travis Albritton 45:21
For anyone who's listening it isn't one mirror. What it is kind of break down?
Brittany McBean 45:25
There are people in basically in one of five stages of awareness. There's completely unaware not a good place to spend your marketing time or money. There's problem aware, which means they are actively aware that they have a problem. But they don't know how to solve it. They're not aware of the solutions yet, if they're solution aware, they're aware that there are ways to fix their problem that might be a book, it might be a free app, it might be your course, it might be a product, it might be a blog, right, but they don't know which one is best for them, or they have tried a couple and they still I'm like this doesn't work. So solution where they're aware of a solution, then when they are product aware. So that's the fourth one, they are aware of your specific product. And they are actively contemplating whether this is the right fit for them like they are much. It's a more in depth way of saying like cold versus warm, but they're much warmer, that much closer to the bottom of the funnel much closer to a buying decision. And then when they are most aware, they're on your checkout page they're entering in their credit card, they have basically decided that this is the right thing for them. They just haven't clicked buy yet. Is there anything else that they need to see to click Buy to make that confident decision? So unless you're like, I am selling this to people who have been on my list and followed me for 10 years and heard everything I have to say, because people never hear everything you have to say and you think they did because you've said it a million times. And they still haven't, I assume that people are problem aware on that sales page. So at the top of the sales page, we are the like the headline is not promoting the product, because they're not product to where the headline is speaking to their problem, or, or maybe even the solution that they're looking for if they're a little bit further down in the funnel. And then that really top quarter of the sales page is reflecting back the problem to them in a way that shows them that like we know how this shows up in your life, we can see this like slice of life not agitating the pain not calling out their deepest trauma, just showing them I see you I get you so that they're like, you see me you get me what else do you have to say? And then we're moving down to solution aware. And then we're moving down to product aware. And I think it's really, really important to describe your solution before you name it. Because if you say this is the problem you're having, and that's why you need to try zero to 110 days. They're like, what, what is that, but if you're like, This is a problem you're having, which is why a solution that allows you to start here and then gives you the tools that get you here, and then you have some support and mentorship that's gonna allow you to get what you want. By the way, I've created that thing for you. Right? That's that then it's like zero to 100. I don't know what we're doing 100K or 100 miles, I don't know. What we're, what some we're getting to 100 of something, right?
Travis Albritton 47:58
That's a good number. It's a good number.
Brittany McBean 47:59
Yeah, it's great. Because it could be it could be like I can make $100, I can walk 100 steps and get 200 miles. But then we're doing a bit of a product tour, we're relaying out now we're getting into more details, you start with emotion at the top people make decisions emotionally justify it logically, not manipulating emotion reflecting back their emotion, then we have a bit of a product tour, which is like these are, this is what your experience is like these are the features that will really be meaningful to you that will really aid in the transformation you're looking for. And then we move into the call to action and and the social proof. And this is what it looks like for other people, both the minimum viable when the average win, maybe a big possibility. But not that's not the only social proof you have on it. And I know that's really important to you as well. And then we're moving into to those details that mitigate risk that provide the social proof that allow them to click that call to action button, your guarantee all of that stuff. That's why that's at the bottom of the page. Because then they they're interested. They're like, I think this is for me prove that this is safe, right? So that's the sales page. And then once we have that core messaging there, it's also because it's specifically for us like because it's the most copy I want my clients to be like yep, love this great or like no hate this. Let's change all these things before we write everything else. But then we just go into somebody and then we say okay, like if we if sales pages step D, what is Step C? What is B? What is A? Let's back it up, let's write those top of funnel ads, let's write the show up email, or the warm up emails or the pre launch emails, whatever. That will get them to the sales page. And let's write the launch emails that honestly, launch emails is just dissemination of the messaging on the sales page, because it's just like diving deeper into the little points on there. And then the checkout card is just one of those final, you know, risk mitigating things. So specifically for what I write that's how I think through things but I think that also translates to when you can look down and say what is the actual customer journey? What are the assets like the physical assets that they're encountering? How can I disseminate the messages to meet them where they are? And then thinking about those five stages of awareness and just making sure that you're kind of moving through those so that you're not giving the 30 day money back guarantee and a Facebook Ad? Why do they care about that? They don't even know what you're selling. And you're not like, you get 500 videos of when they're like, I don't even know if I like you much less if I want to see your face 500 times, you know, when they're like, Oh, I really liked you. Is this different than that other courses is different than that free app like, oh, you give me templates and spreadsheets and downloads? Yes, please. I will take those right. Did that, did that answer your question? I know, it wasn't like, use this word here. But I think and then you think about it that way?
Travis Albritton 50:43
It's the answer we need, right? So so again, it's very easy to be like, Oh, if I just put the word secrets in here somewhere, people will discern that I have secret knowledge that once they give me their credit card, I will give them secret knowledge. But little do they know on the back end of that as an upsell to the super secret knowledge that is only for my mastermind it didn't. So I think that can be the tendency when you think about sales copy, versus let's have a full conversation with this person. Starting with where they are guiding them through those stages of weariness to the place where they actually not only recognize there are solutions to the problem, they actually want to solve the problem. And they feel good about actually pursuing a solution to this problem. And it's not coming from a place of manipulation, but an eagerness to make their lives in themselves better. And it's an it's self driven motivation, versus let's manipulate this person to typing into a 16 digit credit card. Now, one thing I want to ask you super technical, how do you use an FAQ section on a website on a sales page? Is that...
Brittany McBean 51:49
I love that question.
Travis Albritton 51:50
the junk drawer? Or is it, hey these are questions that come up over and over again? Or is that another opportunity to speak to the person because I've seen people use FAQs is like okay, well, here are the other questions that we get frequently. And the tendency is, well, let's make an FAQ section instead of let's address that in the copy. Because that's clearly a recurring theme. How do you use FAQs...
Brittany McBean 52:15
Oh, I love it.
Travis Albritton 52:16
to help with that process?
Brittany McBean 52:17
So many people are like, okay, FAQ, like, what course program do you use? No, stop it. No, nobody cares. Right. So I actually think FAQs and social proof are really similar, we have a tendency to put them on an island. And to think of them very technically, whereas they are strategic and need to be strategically placed in your copy when people are actively like asking that question needing you to actually backup a claim that you made. So with FAQs, like on my website, actually have them in a couple different places like I have them in the about section, I think it's a new website, I'm still trying to remember, I have them on like the Services page, like when people would be like, I have a question, right? Like, something is popping up. The sales page they are in the second half. But they're not like the last last last thing. And it's not a throw away. You're not answer. Here's the thing, if you have a lot of support requests about user experience about technical stuff, like support requests, that's not an FAQ, you haven't done your job, if they're like, I don't understand, is this a self paced course or are you live with us? You haven't done your job describing the offer. Go put that back on the copy. Right? If you're getting confusing. misunderstanding, people not reading put it in more places describe it more clearly. Right? When you're looking at your FAQ section, you were saying what are the objections that people are still actively telling themselves to either convince themselves that they're not right for this, if they are to convince themselves that they're not good enough to do this, that it would never work for them. And then rather than tackling those objections or overcoming them, which is like, incredibly aggressive, and I don't know why we're using like football, when people are having legitimate, like, can I afford this or not questions, but you just answer their hesitations by validating them. So like, for example, in FAQ, can I afford this? You don't say you can't afford not to do this, you say, hey, if this is actually going to cause you to like struggle financially, or maybe prevent you from being able to meet your responsibilities, this isn't the time wait until next time, by the way, that's going to be an April, right, like you're just giving them information. But if your biggest concern is x, then then this feature might actually address that. Right. So you're like, you're taking the hesitations? The reasons people are saying, this won't work for me, and you're addressing them in the FAQ. And then if you have support questions coming in, do your job to explain your offer better do your job to explain their experience better, and then just have a support email at the bottom of the sales page or something.
Travis Albritton 54:46
Perfect. Well, I mean, we could we could just keep going for another hour or two. So maybe we'll just have to do a part two and part three.
Brittany McBean 54:52
Yes. Let's do it.
Travis Albritton 54:53
But for anyone that's listening, that wants to learn more about you, maybe consume some of your content and potentially reach out as, you know, a potential client in the future. What's the best next step for somebody who wants to get to know you better?
Brittany McBean 55:07
Yeah, um, I talked to hear myself talk on YouTube, I love, I cannot, I cannot deliver a short video I'm trying my YouTube managers like, oh my god stop turning over an hour of raw footage because I just like this I talk I'm talking like, this is another thing I know. But I do love to talk on YouTube. And I'm often giving high level stuff like this, but also some really specific and tangible stuff about specifically online and digital marketing. So that that would be a great place, feel free to go and binge feel free to hit subscribe. I'm like really famous, I have like 200 subscribers, I know. I know, I'm making millions on there. And there's always like a call to action to get on my email list on there. So that would be a great place. And then if you're interested in working together, have a very simple inquiry process, do not DM me, do not email me, I will miss it, I will miss a notification. I will forget. Just https://brittanymcbean.com/contact and you can inquire and apply there. And that just kicks off the whole process. And then we get on a call together and go from there.
Travis Albritton 56:05
Awesome. And those will be linked in the show notes. If you want some quick references to be able to click off of this app, wherever you're listening or watching. Go check that out. Brittany, thank you so much for your time and everything that you shared today.
Brittany McBean 56:15
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Travis Albritton 56:17
So my number one takeaway from that phenomenal conversation that you just heard from Brittany is that empathy is the New Black. It is the thing, not just as a tactic to manipulate people into buying more things from you, but as a way of connecting with people online that more and more people are wising up to the strategies and tactics of yesteryear and are very aware of businesses trying to manipulate them in order to earn their business. And so if you can show up as a human being trying to help another human being, that's what's really going to set your business apart and really set you up for success. Now if you want to go deeper down this rabbit hole, learn some more skills about how to be a better copywriter yourself, I definitely encourage you to check out Brittany's YouTube channel which is linked in the description below in the show notes for this episode. And if you are a coach if you are a course creator or if you have a membership and you want to overhaul your copy your website, your launch and everything in between. Britney is phenomenal. So go to her website fill out that contact form start that process to see if you'll be a great mutual fit. Well I hope you enjoyed this episode and got a lot out of it. And as always, be honest.