A Millennial and Two GenX Elders Saunter Into A Podcast S5E7

This is a big episode (over an hour!), but so worth the time as my co-host, No. 1 Child is with me chatting up my colleague and friend, Steve Bisson. Topics covered:

First Responders + Peer Support = Mental Health Support

Respect. Respect! Respect?

Counterculture 2020s style

Generational Expectations

AI + Critical Thinking

Get Off My Lawn!

Activation Alert Notice: This episode discusses sensitive topics, including trauma, suicide and death. Listener discretion is advised.

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More information about Steve:
Steve Bisson is a licensed mental health counselor with over 25 years of experience. He specializes in substance use therapy, crisis management, and online counseling. Steve worked for a non-profit based for 15 years, where he held various positions, including program director, crisis clinician, and member of the original meetings for the Jail Diversion Program. He has been in private practice where he is known for his work with first responders and medical staff, who make up a significant portion of his clientele. He is also the host of the mental health podcast, "Resilience in Development in Action" (formerly titled: "Finding Your Way Through Therapy") and has authored a book and journal on mental wellness. Steve's education includes Bachelor of Arts and Master's degrees in Counseling Psychology, and his notable certifications include EMDR and coaching.

Instagram and TikTok:
@realstevebisson

Podcast:
Resilience in Development in Action - https://steve-bisson.com/my-podcast/

on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@RDAPOD

Book:
Finding Your Way Through Therapy: A Navigation Tool for Therapists & Clients

Website:
https://steve-bisson.com/

Transcript

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Susan 1:22

Hey, y'all, welcome back. It's Susan, your smartie therapist, and today number one child is joining me. Say hello, Seneca.

Seneca 1:28

Hello, everybody.

Susan 1:30

And I've also got my brother from another, Steve Bisson. How you doing, darling?

Steve 1:34

Oh, I'm doing amazingly great. We

Susan 1:36

were just chit-chatting before the show about our bodies hating us and acting out in ways we can't figure out why they be hating us so damn bad. I

Steve 1:44

can't, I can't, I don't understand my body. It's great. That's why I do therapy.

Susan 1:50

You do therapy to understand that it's okay to fucking hate your body because it won't do what it's

1:55

supposed

Susan 1:55

to do.

Seneca 1:56

I just blame Gran.

Susan 1:57

Yeah. Gran seems to be the bearer of a lot of bad things that happened to us. To be fair, she didn't have the greatest immune system. She was pretty hammered on that one, so whatever genetics she inherited she passed on to us. Lucky us.

Seneca 2:11

Yay.

Susan 2:12

Yay.

Steve 2:14

I just say I adapted to America and that's why I have headaches.

Susan 2:19

There you go. There you go. This day and age, absolutely. So talking about bodies hating us and everything else, your last round of podcast episodes, Steve, have been fantastic., Not that your podcast isn't a great podcast, and I'm not saying that 'cause I like you. I mean, you have some fantastic people that are on there. the most recent round you have had several persons, there was a former retired FBI agent talking about, suicide by cop and difficulties being in that profession and burning out and how do you stay human. Dr. Stacy was also, I think she was talking about... Was she the one that was talking about treating people instead of treating them like problems?

Steve 2:59

Yeah, among other things. She's a EMDR, Uh-huh first responder informed. And yeah, she was talking about treating the person. There was also and I'm, because I'm blanking on her name she was, it was, it's the last guest that was on, like two weeks ago. She was talking about how we go in as a first responder, particularly police, trying to yell and scream to control the situation when we should rather go into the situation and try to treat them like humans because that's how they got there. Uh-huh. And yelling and screaming and making them non-human just confirms how they feel about it,

Susan 3:29

is it Leanna or Lyanna? Leanna. She's in the UK, right?

Steve 3:33

Yeah, we've seen... Yeah. Yeah, she's in the UK. She was a bobby.

Susan 3:36

Yeah.

Steve 3:36

In London. Which,

Susan 3:37

amazing. Also, you know, it's great that you've been having all these persons come in from other communities around the world and talk to us, talk to you, and then us in the podcast about how they do their work out in their field. Because it's a lot of the same 'cause they're people, but it's not. There's a lot of other things that get played into it too. So I just thought that was fascinating for the last couple of episodes

Steve 4:01

it's funny because I joined something in, no plug 'cause they are not paying me but I'll say it anyway, Podmatch. Mm-hmm. And I got a lot of these fascinating people from Podmatch who are just like people who wanna be on podcasts and have a great story to tell. And that's how I met the FBI guy, and that's how I met Luciana. And Stacy I met also that way. So it's just great to meet different people from different places. I know a lot of people around here in Massachusetts, and I obviously know you.

Susan 4:28

Uh-huh.

Steve 4:29

But I, it- it's just good to have stories from different places because one of the commonalities that I really wanna do with my podcast is to show that being a cop in Iowa is not much different than being a cop in London or Edinburgh or being an FBI agent. Uh-huh. Yes, there are some differences, of course. Yeah. But the stressors and everything else that go with that are pretty common, and that's what I really wanted to, communicate with everyone.

Seneca 4:55

I really liked the episode where you did the peer support without the gossip. I thought that was really interesting. How did you meet your guest for that?

Steve 5:04

Another Pod Match guy. Because one of the things that I really find is misinformed on every general police departments is that they don't get that they have all these resources available. So peer support for those of, who don't know what peer support is, is usually you have someone within the department that is trained to help you out with some support in the community. They can support you within the department, but they can also give you support in the community, whether it is a vetted first responder mental health clinician or if you need something more intense like an intensive outpatient, partial hospitalization, or even hospitalization. Mm-hmm. the biggest problem, and I, I think I met one of the authors, and again, it's, I'm so bad with names. That's the terrible thing about me. I met one of the authors that talked about peer support and the situations where peer support is in Massachusetts, and I think this happens a lot in other departments. I can only speak intelligently about Massachusetts. Peer support becomes, "Go tell the chief, go tell the lieutenant that this person's having a hard time." Well, that's not what fucking peer support is all about. The peer support is to be safe environment so that they can talk, and then peer support is lost. Is that in every department in Massachusetts? Of course not. There are very respectful peer support. But she was talking about that if you have that in different departments, you gotta be able to move on to people who are gonna be able to keep it and give them the resources and the support that they need. And we need to change the way we deal with that. Peer support should not be another like, "Oh, here's a role I have so I can get, like the glory of doing this," or, "I do the crisis intervention stress management. Here's another notch on my bel- belt." No, it's gotta be something you take seriously, 'cause mental health is unfortunately something that is finally being taken seriously despite some of the stigma that's going on. Unfortunately, I still think it's like, "Oh look, I did this." Well, no, it's not like y- you're not supposed to get a, a round of applause for doing mental health in the first responder world. You're supposed to be doing it because you actually believe in it and support it. Mm-hmm. And it's unfortunate that we struggle still to this day with that. I, that's why I run my groups, that's why I do my, my work, and I work on vetting first responder therapists in order to get the right help because I'm sure that you've had this in different places and you've seen, they send them to employee assistance program or- EAPs. well-intended people, I'm not shitting on them whatsoever. They are well-intended people, but you know, they, you tell them about holding a dead baby, and they're like And then the person wants to talk about it is like, "Oh shit, I can't go any deeper because they're gonna like start crying, or I'm gonna be doing therapy with them." So that's why like there's so many things we can improve to lift that stigma, but now we get into a fight or flight response, and most first responders are really good at flighting and keeping it to themselves. And that's why we really need like to continue removing the stigma. It's like kinda like fighting that stuff and changing that culture so that we find the right people at the right place.

Susan 8:02

Part of the, the reason I made that, that remark, that kind of intake of breath, was because EAP for a lot of persons, not just our first responder community, see it as the man on the inside. And they don't want that because it's a trust issue. And inherently they don't want to trust anybody within the department if they're gonna be talking about these things because unfortunately, like you said, some of the stigma is still there about, "If I need help, I'm seen as less than, or somebody can use it against me politically or whatever." While EAP is a great idea, for a lot of persons it's about, I'm not sure I trust this whole guarantee of anonymity because I can walk in and you won't know me." Well, first off, if you see somebody you work with around that area and they see you going in, already people are gonna be skittish, and they're not gonna wanna go in there. And then on top of that, y- you hear things. I mean, it's, it's news and stuff like that where people flap their gums when they shouldn't be doing that. it's hard to get people to trust the EAP process. Like you said, Steve, I do believe there's some really great ones out there that really do a good job. It's trying to find them support though that they can believe in and feel willing to go to even if it makes them uncomfortable for the first session or two.

Steve 9:18

I also think about the, you talked about going to the chief and all that. One of the things that we need to also make chiefs understand, and some chiefs get it. I was in the office with a chief the other day talking to him, and when I went to meet with the boys and the chief was there, I said, "Look, your chief doesn't care what you talk about with me. Frankly, I'm not gonna tell him because here's the easy math. You come and see me for 10 weeks. Let's say it costs $1,500 for the insurance and all that fun stuff. Let's just play along here. Replacing you will cost at a minimum $60,000 between insurance, training, blah, blah, blah, plus retirement, never mind all that stuff. So the chief is not vested in knowing your story. He wants to make sure you're okay. And if the chief doesn't think that way, he's an idiot." And I said those exact words, and the chief agreed with me, by the way. So th- there are good chiefs that get that. But unfortunately, it's changing that mentality for chiefs. "Oh, he has a mental illness. He's going to see a therapist." Yes, that's a fucking good thing. If he wasn't seeing a therapist and he has a mental illness, that's where you should be shitting a brick. I think that that's the stuff that people don't get, and you need to change that mentality. It's one of those things that I've told many, Recently I've been talking to a whole lot of people about, you know, this is my last mission. I've done a lot of things in my career since I moved here, 27 years ago. I've worked with people who are developmentally disabled, reintegrating in- them in the community, taking people who are leaving jail, making sure they have the resources so they can succeed and not go back to jail. I worked with the jail diversion program in Framingham, Massachusetts, which has now become a co-response model that works in, like hand-in-hand with the CIT programs, I've done a lot of those things. This is my last mission. I wanna be able to say that I've been able to change the mentality of chiefs and people in charge because when you sign off as an administration, once you hit the lieutenant level or even the sergeant level, people forget that their oath is not to the population or your administration. Your oath is to your staff, and your staff should feel comfortable, supported and all that. And you know, telephone, telegraph, tell a cop, tell a firefighter has got to stop

Susan 11:25

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, e- in every place that has responders, whether they're first, second, or whatever tier you wanna call it, they usually have that chain of communication of rumor and, discussion of things that don't belong with them. So part of this, I think you're right, Steve, in trying to figure out how to look at the system and get people to recognize how it doesn't work any longer, and shift it so that they have the ability to make those changes, to make it better for their staff members. Cause you're right, you don't have staff, you're screwed. And already we know about how hard it is for them to staff departments. There's not enough people. They're looking for people who are well-qualified, a lot of places are working on skeleton crews, and that's not safe for them, and it's not safe for the community

Steve 12:11

Or 16-hour shifts- and not having rest. And the other thing too is, you know, we shit all we want on the newer generation, because I'm a Generation X-er, but the one thing I would say about the younger generation is they get it. They get the mental health part, in the police and the fire service particularly, and they get that they gotta get their head together in order to do the job. So how about we use that to our advantage? Because they're the next chief, they're the next le- lieutenants, they're the next captains, they're the next people in charge. So might as well use it to your advantage. And for me, that makes more sense. Seneca, you know it better than I do. Your generation is a lot more open to mental health than my generation and Susan's generation of Gen X-ers. We're like, you know, "Suck it up, buttercup," and that mentality. Not maybe me and Susan per se, although- I know we're kind of hard-asses. But at the end of the day, it's it's one of those things that I feel like, and again, Seneca, I turn to you to tell me if I'm wrong, but that's how we take advantage of what we have instead of... yeah, is there bad things about your generation? No offense, but yes. Is there bad things about my generation? Of course there is. That's life.

Susan 13:19

Right.

Steve 13:19

And I go back to a wrestling thing, and I know it's gonna sound weird, but I remember a small wrestling organization called ECW, and they made no money, and they became national within five years. And the guy who was in charge, Paul Heyman, was asked, "How did you do that?" He says, "I took people's strengths and I emphasized the hell out of it, and I took their weaknesses and I hid them the best I could." And I think that that's what we can do to make everyone so much better.

Seneca 13:44

Yeah. I do have a question for both of you just 'cause you're within that line of work. Just 'cause, Mom and I are in the heartland and we have a lot of small towns around us. How do you see our first responders fighting the not only, modern-day stigma, but also kind of fighting, the family stigma of being able to go in and get mental health? 'Cause I know that we still have families out there who have generations of people who are ambulance, police you know, special services and things like that.

Steve 14:18

I can give you my answer. I have a funny one, and then I have a serious one. The funny one is from a meme that I remember, is, "I go to therapy because you didn't go to therapy."

Seneca 14:26

Yeah.

Steve 14:27

That's a funny one. Yeah. The more serious one is you also went into with Kevlar vests that were, like, giving you cancer. We're not wearing those, are we?

Seneca 14:36

No.

Steve 14:36

they're still causing some cancer, and I don't wanna get too controversial, but at the end of the day, they're at least less dangerous when we've evolved on that. Yeah. The oxygen tanks are significantly better for firefighters than they used to be. There used to be very bulky vests for police officers. They're still bulky, but they're not as bulky, and we've evolved around this. Why aren't we evolving mental health and talking about it the same way? And, yeah, it's not gonna be perfect by the time me and Susan are no longer of this world and sleeping with our Kindle into our coffin. That's a callback to your story from a couple of episodes ago, but, hey, I listen. But at the same time, I think that realizing that there's an evolution in policing, there's an evolution in fire and EMT and paramedic and dispatch, might as well talk about that evolution in mental health. It won't be perfect. Just like nothing else in any part of the world that's perfect, but we need to talk about evolution. That's how I would present it to small towns and generational firefighters, generational police officers. And the old-timers, usually I find that, you know, my 60, 70-year-olds are like, "Yeah, sometimes I wish there was some services like that." And they do do it with hindsight, so using that hindsight sometimes can be beneficial, too. That would be my answer.

Susan 15:53

Part of the problem, too, is that for those of us that have survived generational trauma- There's a point where we decide no further beyond me. You become a gatekeeper, and you decide this gate stays locked now. I'm not letting this go any further. I'm going to be that agent of change here on out. Now, when I talk about this with folks, with my clients, family, friends, whatever, they're like "yep, there's a price to be paid for that." And it's like there's a price to be paid for not getting the help and breaking that cycle. This is the same thing. If you're gonna continue perpetuating the family of origin belief system that it is seen as a moral failing or a weakness or a black mark on the family, you're going to continue perpetuating that harm on future generations. And I think, Seneca, with your generation especially, like Steve pointed out, you're recognizing this can't continue. I mean, that's just for a lot of things in the world generally, but also for mental health. This can't continue, whether it's with any kind of emergent services, hospital care, regular types of jobs like teaching. Anybody who has tried to figure out why they feel the way they do and they don't feel good and they can't figure out how to feel better, you have every right to break that cycle and go in and get that help. The problem is there does have to be that discussion of there's gonna be a price to be paid for this. You're gonna fall out with some family members. You're going to possibly have disconnections or outright severing of relationships, 'cause some people can't take that. And it doesn't mean it has anything to do with you. What it is, it's about that fear that they have of, "Oh my God, if you go out and talk about these things, I'm gonna have to possibly change too. I am not gonna take a part of that. I need to protect my worldview and how I live my life." And that's where the separation of relationships comes in Most folks that I talk to again, doesn't matter how I'm talking to them or who they are, a lot of them have to think about that, and they have to figure out how they're gonna navigate those relationships. I wanna say, like, 90% of them though are like, "Fuck it, I got nothing left to lose. I feel so bad, and I don't wanna lose what I have currently," whether it's a family situation, a partnership, their jobs, their careers. No, they don't want to lose those things. So a lot of it has to do with just being, at least from the therapeutic point of view for me, is to let the people know if they're coming to see me for therapy, you have to know what's going to happen. I can't sugarcoat this shit for you. It's bad. It can be less bad, and sometimes it's not even a thing because a lot of times people look to you as, again, you're the gatekeeper that shuts that gate on the things that don't work for the family any longer, and you're this touchstone that allows other people to consider the option to go out there and change their perception of what it means to go and get mental health support. I don't know. Did that answer your question for you, kiddo?

Seneca 18:41

Yes. Yes.

Steve 18:42

I think the other part that I would say to you is also changing the false- I do believe in respect, but I b- I don't believe in false respect. "Oh, they're older than me, they know better than me." Fuck that. Sometimes they don't know better than me. I mean, I'd rather have someone like Seneca say, "Steve, you're full of it," than they say, "Okay, why am I full of it?" I'm gonna be curious about it. And if I disagree, I'll be like, "You know what? I think you're full of it, too." And that's fine. We can have a disagreement. But we gotta stop thinking that because I'm older I somehow know better than her. That's stupid. Mm-hmm. And I think that that's harder, I think, in the Midwest and I, in the Mi- you know, in the heartland of America, and I get that. On the East Coast I think we're open to that. But all the people I know around here, including, like, my frie- my kids' friends and all that, they call me Steve. I don't wanna be called Mr. Bisson. I don't wanna be called sir. I don't- I hate all that crap. The only thing I was called is when I coached soccer, they would, had to call me coach, which is the only, "I'm your coach. When I'm on the field, I'm a coach. When the game's over, I'm Steve again." But that was the only thing. It was just part of the game to me.

Seneca 19:47

Mm-hmm.

Steve 19:47

And I think that that's where we also have to break that false sense of respect. I've never called my teachers, other than the sisters, 'cause I started and it was a Catholic type of school. I had to call them sister and brother, and I didn't have no choice in that. But all my other teachers, I know Americans look at me funny and they go, "You call your teachers by their first name?" I'm like, "Yeah, all of my teachers were called by their first name." And it was because you could have a conversation, and even my kids, we were up in Montreal last week. Sometimes y- you and your friends look like you're fighting. No, we are just talking, and if we disagree, we disagree, and then we move on. There's no, like, bitterness, there's no anger, and there's no false sense of, like, "No, you know what, Susan? I disagree with this." Like, "No, Susan, that's crazy." And then we have to finish a conversation, we move on. The false sense of respect, that's what I mean by it. You can still be respectful and disagree with people. I think that's the other thing that has to be changed.

Susan 20:40

Seneca- I think- do you think you fall into that where you're, one way or the other, about the false respect thing? 'Cause I don't think I raised you like that.

Seneca 20:46

Oh, fuck yes, I do. Yeah. Because, y- you did raise me, but I'm also from the Midwest, and I grew up around my grandparents and my great-grandparents, so I

Susan 20:57

sp- I'm like- but that was true respect, because they worked really hard, and th- it wasn't this honorific title you were giving them. Right. When you said y- yes sir or no sir, especially to, Grandpa Dave. But I mean, in, in the world larger than that- I- is that still difficult for you?

Seneca 21:14

It's very difficult for me, because I swear I'm still like that poster child of straddling the newer generation and still being almost grouped into, like, the Gen X type of era. I hate to admit, almost 40, I still call people sir, ma'am. I still have that mental blockage of, "You're older than me? Oh, then yes, I still 90% believe that yeah, you probably know better than I do." And that's, that's so hard to break through that wall because of how I was raised. And sometimes it's kind of hard to distinguish between false respect and giving them absolute true respect. So I default to, "Okay, you're older than me, so I'm just gonna go with what you say."

Steve 22:00

Sorry, I'm gonna do your therapy for a second, and I'm sorry, the therapist kicked in. I don't know better than you, I know different than you.

Seneca 22:07

Yeah.

Steve 22:08

I don't know if it's better, it's just different.

Seneca 22:10

Yeah.

Steve 22:10

And I tell people all the time, it's like, "I might know something different. Doesn't make it better or worse, just makes it different."

Seneca 22:15

Mm-hmm.

Steve 22:16

And I think that some- sometimes that's the conversation. Yes, if I'm in public and I meet a chief or a sergeant or whatever and they're in uniform, it will be sergeant, it will be lieutenant, or I meet a judge and I'll call him Your Honor or sir and all that. But when the doors close and all that, there's no way I'll call a judge sir or Your Honor Mike, what the hell was that? I, I n- I don't play that game. I don't, I don't believe in that because that's, that's the false sense of respect that I mean, if you become a judge and there's people around, of course I'm gonna say Your Honor and around people. But if it's me and you in a private, like room or whatever, I'm not calling you whatever your title is. And if people insist on being called their title privately, I remind them that I wanna be called master because I have a master's, so I wanna be called master.

Seneca 23:03

Love it.

Susan 23:04

Master my ass. Anyway.

Steve 23:07

Hey, I've got a master's. Call me Master.

Susan 23:10

Yeah, but my mind immediately went to B&D and S&M, so there we go.

Seneca 23:14

I wasn't gonna say it. I wasn't gonna say it.

Susan 23:18

Come on, we're all kink positive in this discussion. We're all sex positive. Of course our, our minds went to that. Oh there's that. Yes. However, getting back to the original question, with you being an elder millennial, like I'm an elder Gen X-er 'cause I'm what? 59, being 60 next year. Do you think it's something that is being, a cycle that's being broken down by your generation, though?

Seneca 23:43

Yes. I-

Susan 23:43

Where they challenge the olders? 'Cause honestly, and I know part of it is birds of a feather and all that, the younger folks that I hang around with, they have no fucking problem calling me out on my shit. I also have no fucking problem owning up to the shit. However, I will be able to state, "Wait a minute. I, I really don't understand where you're coming at from that angle. Can you explain what you're talking about? I need some clarification. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand." And they are more than happy to say, "Oh, X, Y, Z, da, da, da, da." And like, "Oh, yeah, no, I still don't believe that." And then we'll argue. We'll have a disagreement, but in the end it's out of true respect for one another that, yeah, we're not going to think alike. We're not gonna be the same people. So I'm just curious, do you see that more among your friends, the people that you know, too?

Seneca 24:28

I definitely do. Even with most of my friends are still back home. And even with more conservative cultures that are on the other side of the world that I have ties to, they're also breaking that wall of that false respect, and I really gotta give them kudos for that. Because with more conservative cultures, They end up having what I would consider harsher consequences for breaking that wall. But-

Susan 24:56

Well, it's still taboo to diss on your elders- or challenge them in any way.

Seneca 25:01

Right.

Susan 25:01

There, yeah, there are a lot of cultures in the world that are like that. But I think we're being more specific about North American, Northern European- Yeah types of mentality of younger folks, because I see it all the time, on TikTok, different other social media platforms, and news about younger generations challenging older generations and authority, and doing so in a way that people are like, "Oh, they're just doing the '60s all over again." It's like, no, I don't think you understand. This is something completely different. It feels different. It sounds different. But more importantly, again, it feels different. There's, there are people out there that are being ideological about things and not being really realistic, but you have way more persons of different generations now that are challenging older folks, that it's based in reality. And they're bringing solutions to the table too by challenging them- Yeah and saying, "Maybe this isn't the answer, but how about we start here?" Does that make sense?

Seneca 25:57

Yeah. We're not just saying, "Hey, fuck you and your ideals and whatever." We're like, "Okay, yeah, kind of fuck you and your ideals, but this is what I think and this is our like three or four different solutions that we could overcome this."

Susan 26:12

I

Steve 26:12

was thinking about- I think that the j- Go ahead, Steve I just wanted to jump in and say that what I find with this generation is, yeah, you're, what you're saying, your ideals are wrong, and this is why, and there's a good explanation. And I find that that generation of Millennials and whatever the other one is, I'm not really good at that, but they're able to tell you, "This is why I disrespect this." Mm-hmm. And sometimes it's logical, and sometimes I don't agree with them, but I tell them, I am... I'm from the school of, "Hey, you know what? I disagree, but you're allowed to feel whatever the hell you want." Mm-hmm. And I think that that's the difference is that there's an explanation behind it. Our generation was more of a, and you talk about the hippies from the '60s, it was more like, "Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me." Sorry, I was, like, Rage Against the Machine line, but whatever. At the end of the day, it was more, "Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me," but then you wouldn't explain why. And I think that this generation will tell you, "Fuck you, I won't do it. Just tell me this is why."

Susan 27:04

Mm-hmm.

Steve 27:04

And I think that that's the difference that's really occurring. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I

Susan 27:08

perceive. No. No, and I, I agree with you, Steve, because the thing that I'm hearing too with the folks that we've worked with in and out of therapy, and people who we're friends with and that, colleagues too, is that they're willing to tell you that they don't believe in this. Here's why. Here's the solutions. It's the older generations that are coming back and going, "But I earned this. You have to give this to me." Yeah. Okay, you've earned this title. You've earned where you're at in your career, but they don't know you, and every person you meet, it's a new situation about earning respect- Mm-hmm every single time. I don't believe in the blanket respect that people think they're automatically owed. Right. Just because they're older, you have to listen to me.

Steve 27:53

Call me master

Susan 27:58

Darlin', love you like my brother, but fuck you Me and my court say no.

Steve 28:06

Exactly.

Seneca 28:10

And I'm

Susan 28:13

just- But, you know- do what I want. Yeah, do what you want. Yeah. But part of that too is, you know, the people that are coming into the departments and emergency services and stuff like that, they understand protocol. They understand process. But they also for, from persons that I know, they also understand that, again, there should be discussion about this shit. There shouldn't just be, doing it on the dime. Yes, sir. Blah, blah, blah. No. They want, they also wanna be a part of the decision-making when it's appropriate to do so. So it's not like they're out there creating anarchy within their departments, but they want to change it what it is. And we've talked about this before, Steve, about the dismantling of the old boys' network and how it's slowly starting to change over because of the younger generation. So I think a lot of it is about you don't get that false respect, you don't get blanket respect. Those that are older should be viewing this, and I'm gonna stand on this hill, they should be viewing it as every person you meet, it's about working towards earning the respect on both sides of a conversation

Steve 29:10

And I think it's also different if you're on a call and there's a chain of command. Mm-hmm. I don't think it's the time- Oh, absolutely. That's something completely different that you don't, you don't call the chain of command at that point. I know it's paramilitary, but I get it. Yeah. In a call, you go with the chain of command and you respect that. That makes sense to me. And maybe afterwards you process it and then you can have a conversation. But in the moment, that's not when you want the, no offense to Generation X or Millennials or Generation Z or whatever the hell we're calling it this week, you don't call it in the moment. But afterwards, going, "Hey, you know what? Procedurally, I think that maybe it helps to do this or that or whatever." "No, I don't agree because of this." "Oh, that's a good idea. Maybe we can talk about it and set up a new SOP or whatever." I think at the end of the day, it's okay to have that conversation, but there are moments where, yeah, the chain of command has to be respected and it's not a time to question things. Mm. When you're having You know, I'm exaggerating 'cause they don't happen a whole lot, but when, you know, someone has a suicide by cop situation, "You know what, chief? I don't agree with your decision right here. We got..." No, no, no. Fucking do what the chief told you- or lieutenant or whatever. Shut up. Fucking do

Susan 30:15

it. Read

Seneca 30:18

the room, kid. Come on. Well, I just feel... Yeah.

Steve 30:21

I wanna talk to you about my feelings on this. No. No, no.

Susan 30:24

I feel you're gonna get your ass kicked. Get the hell out of here. Exactly. That's what I feel.

Steve 30:30

I feel like you're gonna have one hell of a fucking write-up when you get home.

Susan 30:33

Oh, yeah. I feel you're gonna get time off without pay. Mandatory vacation.

Steve 30:47

There's a time and place, but I think that that's where we need to be able to be open to it because you know, it's one of those things that working with the group, I talk about my mentor and my first responder group and we talk about, we have, like, a 25-year-old who transition and re-transition male female, male to back to female, and then we have an old salty guy who's 67 who didn't understand a fucking thing about it, and instead of being salty, he was actually very curious and attentive. I'm not saying he didn't come in with prejudice, but he then listened to it and was able to get the He still has his ideas, but we were able to have a conversation. We talked about certain things about reacting in a situation and someone said, "Ah, fuck 'em." And the other person, "Well, wait a minute. Let's hear about this." And we had conversations, and even if we all come from a different point of view, no one disrespects, even if it's ultimately left or right or whatever. That's the conversation I'm talking about. We can have that postmortem or whatever you wanna call it. I think that that's what's lost nowadays. That's what I mean about the false respect. I respect my 68-year-old firefighter who's been there, done that, and have a, has a few T-shirts, and the 25-year-old who just got her first T-shirt. But at the same time, that doesn't mean one's more valuable than the other. We gotta hear both sides

Susan 32:05

Absolutely agree. I'm curious, Seneca, with Steve and I being the Gen Xers over here, and elder Gen Xers, what is it that you have questions about with us sitting here in our glorified spot of having survived a lot of crap and history, and we're just sitting here yapping at you and expecting you to fill in for all the millennial generation? What questions do you have? You re- you

Steve 32:29

represent every millennial right now, but no

Susan 32:32

pressure. No pressure.

Seneca 32:32

Sure. No

Susan 32:33

pressure.

Seneca 32:34

No pressure

Susan 32:35

Can I go now? I don't feel good. My belly hurts.

Seneca 32:38

Your gut belly hurts I think because of how communicative you are, Mom, about what you go through with work how close you and I are, like, in our daily lives and, I do understand where where you guys come from with everything, which kind of helps me with my my normal corporate life. I'm just trying to think of What my generation would be asking.

Susan 33:05

Well, part of it too, you talk about your normal corporate life. And I, Steve, I don't know if this is true for your kids too about the jobs that they have, but it's interesting because the videos I'm watching online through whatever social media or YouTube or whatever, and I know it's, a lot of it's comedy, but a lot of it is based in the reality of how things have changed in the work world that isn't EMS. there was one video that just summed up everything that tells me how far fucking things have changed, and I'm grateful for it, was this person that was showing how when she hears her bestie at work ready to drop the tea on something, she's actually climbing over the cubicle walls to get to her bestie's little cubie, right? And before, that would've been represented completely different. Nobody would've been climbing over the walls, right? We would've been seen, you know, rushing down the hallway and zipping in real quick or yanking them into a conference room or something. No, this was obviously millennial climbing over cubicles to get to her bestie to get the tea, which by the way, fucking hilarious. But I mean, isn't that how it seems like for you? I don't know. Is that how it feels like sometimes in the corporate world or the 9:00 to 5:00 gigs or anything? That Steve and I grew up with a different set of parameters we were supposed to follow

Seneca 34:26

Yes. I've, I've also seen, the videos and things my favorite are the the, it would be, like, your generation or maybe a little bit mature, a little bit more mature you know, complaining about, you know, kids these days don't work as hard as we do type of thing and... but I would definitely agree with that video. it very much represents how, how things have entirely changed. Because I do work with your generation and older and I don't necessarily have a lot of younger colleagues that I work, one-to-one on. I do hear the feedback from your generation of what we do and how we react within that environment

Steve 35:11

Cause

Susan 35:11

I'm just wondering if Go ahead, Steve.

Steve 35:13

I was just gonna say my observation of your generation versus ours is our generation had a little bit of that baby boomer effect. And what I mean by that is put your head down, work, shut your fucking mouth, and do what you need to do. Where your generation is like, "My fucking shift's over." "No, we need you to stay." "I've got stuff to do. Fuck off." Right. And I think that that, yeah, I have You know, I would say if we spoke maybe 10 years ago, I'd have a visceral response of like how lazy you guys are. And 10 years removed, I have a very healthy respect. I'm like, "Huh, I get it now. That makes perfect sense that they think that way." Yeah. And I think that that's where, there's a, there's the difference that I see now too from that generation you know, not only EMS. I see it also in the corporate world. And, you know, like, my daughter's like, "Yeah, you know what? I had something planned. I'm going." And they're like, "Well, we can get two hours." "Yeah, but I wanna go spend time with my friends." And for me it would've been, "No, you take the two hours of overtime 'cause that's what you were asked." And now you know, it's almost like a European mentality that's come in, in a good way, not the, 28-hour week, don't get me wrong. But the thought of spending time with your family and friends is as valuable as working extra hours because that's change. And then again, you know, Seneca, you're part of that generation more than I am, obviously. But I think that that's the change. And yes, 10 years ago I would've been like, you know, lazy bums or whatever, but now removed from it 10 years or even less, but I'll say 10 years just to be generous, I'm like, "Huh, maybe if I thought like that I would've been in a hospital twice in three weeks."

Susan 36:59

Exactly. And I wouldn't have ended up with, two heart events in my gig previously in, you know, in a span of what? A year. I think you're right, Seneca. I mean, in terms of that shift, and I'm not saying it's wrong whatsoever. And I kinda with you, Steve, about, I think it would've been longer ago. I think about half my age, 25 years ago, Maybe 20, where and it did happen where, the younger generation would be like, "Yeah, I'm not gonna. I'm gonna do this." And it wasn't so much that they were lazy. It was, "Oh my God, don't you know? These are the rules. If you wanna make money and support yourself and get ahead and get a career, you have to follow these rules. O- otherwise they won't let you in." To which, I actually voiced this to a couple of younger persons, and they're like, "Who said I wanted to play that fucking game?" Wow. F- okay. Talk about your epiphany smacking you upside the head. It was like a wrecking ball hitting my cranium. It's like I never fucking saw it like that.

Seneca 37:53

Mm-hmm. I think, I can't speak for everybody in my generation, but I'm also kind of fighting with that old school mentality because I have a very, what I would consider, very hard work ethic, a very blue collar mentality of these are the rules. If they ask you to stay, you know, yeah, I'll work those extra three hours. And as I've gotten older and have paid attention to my other peers in Gen Z, I think what it's also taken us is the fact that we're listening to our moms, our uncles, our grandparents, our great-grandparents saying, I wish I wouldn't have worked all those hours. I wish I would've taken more vacation. I wish I would've spent more time with my family." that plays within my head. as I've taken this newer position I, I told them I'm getting older I wanna slow down. I don't wanna work as much, and I wanna spend time with my mom. I wanna spend time with my family and do the things I wanna do because we're all realizing, hey, we could be gone tomorrow. I think really listening to our elders has really played a big part in that whole no, I'm not gonna work that extra two hours you're telling me to.

Susan 39:06

I believe COVID was a precipitator of a lot of the sea change. I don't know if anyone agrees with me, and personally I don't fucking care because I have no fucks to give. I do believe that in shifting the way we did work and the way that we saw capitalism come crashing down on people and crushing them, that also gave millennials and younger generation that aspect of fuck it, the system is too fragile to s- to stand up to this anyway the way it used to be, so we'll figure out what the rules are gonna be according to what we wanna do. We'll change them. And that hasn't brought anything down. You see that shift of, especially corporations, trying to go back to the 1950s model of work from the office and da da da da da when- Their productivity and profits jumped when people were able to work from home, and they had those policies in place so that you could do that. There was flex time and everything else. Now, there are a lot of companies now that are like, "We're gonna keep this because we're making a lot more money doing this, and we're retaining our employees who are younger who want this too." And unfortunately, both Steve and I know that there are though, unfortunately, those jobs for our folks that we know and that we're friends with and colleagues with, it doesn't lend itself to that. You know, they have to be stuck in the form of the way that they do their jobs for emergent services. But for a lot of other services, if that's the option and they can flex like that, I am all for it, you know? And I know that other people, especially people who are older, boomers, "Well, d- aren't you mad that they get to do it and you don't?" It's like, "Fuck no! I wish I had had that opportunity." It's like, like taking the national exam, you know, when we, when I had to get my national boards done for my permanent license. You remember that, Seneca. And I hated that fucking test because it was so terrible. They took points away from you if you didn't pick the best answer. Not zero, they took points away. Fucking drove me out of my mind. Grateful I passed it. But then two years later, they changed it. They got rid of that portion of it, and again, people are like, "Aren't you upset?" Fuck no. Nobody should be tortured by an exam like that. I am always for people who can have better experiences doing what they need to do and more flexibility to do it. That makes us better as people, and it makes our system healthier too.

Steve 41:24

And if you have jobs, some, like I'm therapy, I've been, I've been online since 2015 before it was cool. And you know, and everyone who told me that I was robbing my clients from experiences in 2015 till 2020 also all came and begged me to show them how to do it because they didn't know about it. And I'm like, "Remember I was robbing my clients? Remember those stories?" So sometimes I A couple of them who were harsher than others, I told them go fuck themselves. The ones who were less harsh, I helped them out. 'Cause I'm, yes, I'm a bitter man, I, I will admit that freely. But I also, pe- I, you know, I, I think that when you can evolve something, you g- you do. Like some- if you can do a spreadsheet at 2:00 in the morning and that's when you're productive, you don't need a human being to do a spreadsheet. You just have all the numbers on the sheet and you put it in. Who cares when you do it, as long as you get it done. I think that that's what you're, you know, the, you say COVID, I say again, a generational thing is they got it. Like, "Yeah, I can do this at 2:00 in the morning. Why the hell?" NBCC should evolve. I'm not a morning person. Doing the NBCC test at 8:00 in the morning is detrimental for my mind. I'm not a morning person. Doing the NBCC at 8:00 at night probably would've been better for me. Being able to evolve is, and if they one day they do change it to NBCC at 8:00 on a Sat- well, maybe not a Saturday, I'm not that productive on a Saturday, but if it is for some people and they do it, good for them. I'm not gonna be like, "Oh, well you know, when I was a ti- I had to go uphill f- both ways four mi-" No. F- good for them. I, so I'm not gonna yell and scream. But I, I think at the end of the day when we can evolve and not be bitter about it, that's one thing. When you be, when you're, there's an evolution and you're bitter about it and they had a better idea than you and you're, you're being an asshole about it, that's just stupidity. And then when, when you- That's

Susan 43:12

when the guillotine

Steve 43:13

comes out. Right. And then you say, "Oh, well now I need your help for the idea that you had," or so you, "Now we wanna do it." Fuck you. You thought it was a bad idea. Go fuck yourself. I'm sorry. I'm not much of a I don't like people who tell you one thing one day and then they do it, and then they want your help. But someone who are like, "Hmm, I'm curious, I wanna learn," or, "I have it better than I- you did," fantastic. Good for you. And I'm very happy for you. You shouldn't be

Susan 43:37

apologizing for that, Steve, 'cause I'm the same way. You wanna be a dick about it, then go be a dick to somebody else. I don't have time for you. I mean, if you come to me and say, I was a dick and I didn't know what I was talking about and I'm sorry about that, and I could really use your help on this," and you're sincere about it, fine. I'm cool with that. But if you come to me and go, "Well, I've gotta learn this now, so I guess I have to come to you." You can fuck right off then, buddy, on your fuck off horse off the fuck off mountain. Were you on that phone call? 'Cause I'm not gonna go

Steve 44:05

there. 'Cause that was almost exactly what they said to me

Susan 44:07

Assholes. No thanks. No thanks. Oh, I sent the kids this- I'm like, I'm

Steve 44:11

sorry, I'm busy counting the, the slats on my my window right now actually.

Susan 44:16

I sent this kid this, the kids this meme that I found I don't remember, and it's about the person that came up with the term for dark matter also came up with the term for spherical bastard, because it's for people that no matter which way you look at them, they're still a bastard. That's what they are, spherical bastards. Absolutely.

Steve 44:37

I like that.

Susan 44:39

Yeah, I do too. So spherical spherical ba- bastards being what they are and everything else in, what we're looking at in the sea change of generations, I don't know, do you guys feel that we're also more fortunate than the older folks are? Because I think we have a better way of monitoring the sea change and deciding where, you know, what kind of boat we need to build for ourselves and our friends and colleagues and people we know, as well as what direction do we need to go in so that we're not left behind. What do you guys think?

Seneca 45:10

And it's access to

Steve 45:11

information

Seneca 45:12

Yeah. Yeah, I would agree what Steve said. It's the access to information that makes us way better off than previous generations,

Susan 45:21

The access to information which was heavily regulated in the past, You had to have literacy rates so that people could read, knew how to read, also how to in- interpret the information disseminate the information for themselves, then to pass it along, and the reliability of the information. You had institutionalized information. That was the party line that you were supposed to believe. And then from there, you had to know people who were in the know. I mean, this is all old school stuff. Steve, you remember this?

Steve 45:51

Oh, yeah, I remember. You needed to know someone and knew someone in order to get what you need.

Susan 45:56

Yeah.

Steve 45:56

I remember going to the library and looking at, you know, bigger than that library just to look up something in order to grab a book if it was there. If you didn't, the book wasn't there, you were again fucked and had to wait- Mm-hmm to get the information you needed, and it may take two weeks. Nowadays, there's more powerful information in this little thing than we ever had, dare I say, 30 years ago.

Susan 46:20

I think there's more information on our phones than we had even 10 years ago because the processing speeds and the ability to connect with the way that the world is putting out that information. But the flip side of that is, are we teaching people to be able to disseminate the information and understand trusted source from those persons that are putting out information that may be spurious? So that's part of it, too how do we help- Well, we

Steve 46:43

don't encourage critical thinking anymore.

Seneca 46:45

That's true.

Susan 46:45

True. Ooh, Seneca. You know, like

Steve 46:47

for me, it's-

Susan 46:48

That perked you right up

Steve 46:50

i'll let, I'll let Seneca talk about it quickly, but my quick answer is this: AI has been something that exploded in the last five years or so, give or take, but people are just putting out shit from AI without looking at it and saying, "This is good." No, it's not fucking good. Did you read it? Did you look at it? Did you criticize it? And not criticize it as in, "Oh, it's not good," but like, oh, maybe this is off, or this is not good, or whatever. But we lost our ability to be critically thinking because we have AI or we have Google. No, critically think about stuff. I don't know what you wanted to say, Seneca, but that's my quick answer to that. N-

Seneca 47:26

no, I would 1000% agree with that. me and one of my close friends out here, we were just talking about that last week about AI and, and critical thinking. Because of AI the kids that are going through college now aren't learning anything. They're not even memorizing anything anymore because they're like, "Oh, I can just look it up or throw it into AI." And they're submitting their, dissertations their tests and everything. Or even, they're taking the test they're sneakily, just Googling it. They're not retaining any kind of information whatsoever. We're taking away experiences from one another, as of, right now, technology is great. All three of us are talking, and thank God we have the ability to talk to another person in a different state, in a different part of the world. But we're tightening our group smaller than what we have already. We feel like we don't need to make friends. We're becoming more introverts because of it. I believe that we're losing more jobs because of AI. We're not having that human interaction, I really feel that AI is taking away- Great benefits of humanity than what we can actually benefit from. But that's just my opinion.

Susan 48:38

Oh, I agree. I mean, I met up with some family a couple weekends ago, and we were kind of joking about AI and how it had gone, quote unquote, rogue and had tapped in or hacked into somebody, another company that had information, because that's was the it was designed to do or whatever, and it accidentally got on purpose. And one of my cousin's spouses looked at me and he says, "You want Skynet? 'Cause that's how you get Skynet." And, all joking aside with Terminator and everything, but technology has always been seen as bad by people who have a lot to lose. I mean, everything from the printing press, Gutenberg, to going to computers. I remember when computers first came on the scene that were in the house, "Oh my God, Armageddon!" I think because there's enough persons that are so wary of AI and this technology, there's plenty of us out there that are highly resistant to it, want to make sure it is relegated to a realm where it's a helpful tool, but it isn't replacing people. The people that want it to be out there are making oodles of money from it, so of course it's a class distinction now, right? I think there are enough people out there that want to work against it to keep it at the level where it's just a tool, that it's not replacing teachers. It's not replacing the ability of a human to create foundational knowledge, which is what you're re- referring to, Seneca. People going to college and learning by AI measures and Googling on the internet, ChatGPT, and whatever the fuck else is out there, they're not building foundational knowledge. what they're doing is passing the system the way it was designed. And they're doing it with the tools they have available. maybe it's time we take a look at the system that's been built, that sure, it worked for ages and ages, but how do we redesign it so that it brings what it's supposed to, which is the benefit of what you talked about, Steve. Critiquing, being able to be functionally literate in everything that we're reading to cause us to go, "Wait a minute, where did they get that information from?" And know how to go look for original source material. Shit, Steve, you and I know people that are of our age or older who don't know how to go look for original source material to find out- Yeah where that information came from. So I mean, I agree. There is a lot to lay at the doorstep of persons that are exploiting AI and ChatGPT and Google, and there are people that have benefited greatly from it because money being the almighty powerful being that it is that creates the power. But it has hurt so many other people by utilizing it too.

Steve 51:04

But it's also AI and Google and social media has skewed our answers to what we wanna hear. And again, you know, we joked around about generationally. But forget about generations for a second. I want Seneca to challenge me because she wants to challenge me 'cause she has a different belief system. Fuck the generation thing for a second. Just because she's a different human being who has a different life and has had different experiences. "Steve, you don't understand what being a woman who's in her 30s and living in in the middle of the country and how it feels." You're right, I don't. Please tell me. And we don't have that anymore. Like, the, I'm not gonna go into politics 'cause that's a heavy subject here. But the point is, is that I, I think that with AI, it's like anything else. Eventually we're gonna start pushing back, hopefully. But I think that what, at the end of the day, it's not about being scared about technology, but it's being able to be critical about everything we do. And the reason why I love podcasting, I'm not making money off of podcasting. I don't know about you, Susan, but I certainly am not. But I do it for these reasons. Like, you know, I've, you know, I've heard of Number One Child for a long time. It's great to meet her and being able to have a conversation with her, and knowing that, she highly likely will be throwing in a Kindle into I don't know what now at this point, but somewhere. Sorry, I have to always make a call to something. You know me.

Susan 52:24

Listen- as far as I'm concerned, I've given my final wish that when I get, you know, barbecued, then you're gonna put the ashes in a book-shaped container, and you're gonna stick that Kindle and my Nook on top of it. That's what I've asked for

Steve 52:36

Hey, the guy who invented the yo-yo is a yo-yo in his grave, so that's just for the record. But I think that that's what the point is, is that you gotta be critical. You don't know everything, and AI doesn't know everything. People think about, you know, you joke around about Skynet. AI doesn't know everything either. Right. I think that that's the other fear is that we've, we started off, you talk about the fear of Gutenberg G- and the printing press. Remember when, you know, like the radio started moving and it was called TV? And then you can go on the internet and get answers, and everything has been a scare tactic since the beginning. Learn to tame it, but learn to be critical of it, and that's gonna be okay because I don't agree, as liberal as I am, I don't agree with every fucking Democrat out there.

Susan 53:19

And- Well, that, you know, that just, again, you learn how to critique things, Steve. I'm a liberable A buh-buh. Let me try that again. I'm a liberable. You're

Steve 53:26

a liberable?

Susan 53:27

I'm a liberable liberal. Is that how

Steve 53:28

you identify?

Susan 53:29

I do, damn it, with me and my blue-silver hair. Mohawk, baby Anyway, being liberal, I agree. I mean, but it's about being critical in the sense of I need to critique what that information is being presented to me. Yeah. And that's important, and that's why, you know, there's, there's nothing to apologize for here. It's about making sure that you are viewing things with a bit of a jaundiced eye, I use the say, meaning is this really what I'm seeing? Is this really what I'm hearing? And that's why it's a cliche, believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see. Investigate it.

Steve 54:02

I go back to a Simpsons episode having critical thinking, and I know it's a Simpsons episode, but it's really telling. Statistics, shmatistics, you can make them say anything you want. 59% of people know that, and I know that because I just invented that number. And- I

Susan 54:18

remember that episode.

Steve 54:19

And that's what I tell people is like, that's how you work on critical thinking. You can say something very convincingly, but you gotta be willing to criticize it. Not always question the person constantly, but be critical. Oh, 59% of people know that? Okay, let me just check that and see if there's like three sources that say that or whatever.

Susan 54:36

Again, original source material, people. You know, people say, "Oh, well, sound bite," "Death and destruction and beetroot." Okay, where did you get that? Oh, original source material goes back to they did a, a s- a research project of eight people in the back Amazon that's being turned into industrial waste, and they wanted to know if the beetroot was contaminated. Really? That's where you find out how to be critical about the information you're getting. Being able to critique what you're hearing and going "I don't think so. I wanna see the evidence." You know, which speaks to the science of things, too. The reason why I love science is because it's willing to turn around and go, "Nope, that's not the way it is 'cause we have better information now. We have more evidence that gives us a different path to go to." Fucking love science.

Steve 55:24

Who do we look to the most in this world? Science and people like Socrates or philosophers. And what they, what they all did is they took ideas that existed and criticized them. That's who we're gonna remember from this generation. Not not me, you, and sorry, I'm just being realistic. No one's gonna remember who the fuck I was.

Susan 55:43

Or

Steve 55:43

me.

Susan 55:44

But- That's fine

Steve 55:45

but, but that's fine. I don't care. But at least if one person one day says, "You know, at least Steve was critical about stuff," I think I've done my job somewhere. I think that that's what it is, is that the greatest thinkers of the world, the greatest scientists in the world were people who were saying, Hey, I'm criticizing this." Einstein is very famous for saying, "I hope someday somehow someone proves the theory of relativity was wrong." that's what a real thinker thinks about, not, "Oh, I know everything." And that's where I think we need to continue thinking about critical thinking.

Seneca 56:15

Yeah. I think ego really does get in the way of critical thinking, of I know everything, and just throwing off arrogance. And that's probably what I kind of, fight with the generation after me, is that just from my observation they don't have an open mind to be like, "Oh, maybe I don't know everything," and maybe, "Oh, the stuff that's in my phone is not correct." They just plant themselves down and go this is the way it is," and, This is what I say."

Susan 56:44

Do you think some of it may have come from your own lived experiences, though, to get to just shy of 40, that you understand that you have to shift your perspective of you're not gonna know it all?

Seneca 56:54

Yes. I also had you as my mother. Not only life experiences, but you taught me growing up, even at a very young age, that, "Hey, you're not gonna know everything, and there are other people out there who are way smarter than you, that have way more experiences than you. But you have to be open to hear what they say to get that new information."

Susan 57:22

Well, and that's the hard thing is knowing that, yeah there's gonna be people out there that know things that I don't know. And yeah, I'm a fucking know-it-all. I mean, I got stuff stuck in my head that I don't even know why I still keep it in there, lots of trivial information. But I also know there are people out there way fucking smarter than I am about things that I have no idea even exist in this world right now. And I'm okay with that. And I would want to know that there's people out there that if I come across something about, I don't know, neutrons that I've never known about I'm gonna try and figure out who knows about those things so maybe they can tell me in a way that I understand it

Steve 57:54

And I think that that's where we gotta keep on being humble and knowing that we don't know everything. And, you know, I think that that comes with age too. I think that's the point you were trying to make, Susan. I think that when I was 20, I knew everything, and as I grow older and older, I used to say what I know fits in a thimble. I think it probably fits more in the space between these two fingers, and you can't see it if you're not on video. Not quite angels

Susan 58:17

dancing on the head of a pin, but it's getting smaller, isn't it?

Steve 58:20

I, I really don't know shit. I just know things from my perspective. And you talk about, you know, we joked around about, how you identify. I know things from a, you know, heterosexual male from Canada who moved to the US 27 years ago, whose first language is French and second language is English. That's what I know, and I grew up, you know, I have two girls. My perspective changed dramatically because I have two girls versus two boys, and I got divorced, which changed again how I see the world, and so on and so forth. I think that at the end of the day, it's knowing that you have a prejudice based upon your life events- and knowing that those prejudice exists. Whether you like it or not, that's just life. And so when people say, "No, that's not how that's experienced because of this," then that's exactly how you learn from other people. That's why I was saying I don't know what it is to be Susan. I have no clue what it is to be in Iowa. I've never been there in my life, never mind, you know, you told me not to go, actually. But- I

Susan 59:19

mean, other than me, there's no real attraction, trust me.

Steve 59:23

I'll go for a football game, I told you. But I, I thi- I think that that's where, you know, lear- learning to be humble and not knowing everything is key, and I learn from everyone, and sometimes I learn that even from the dumbest person in the world, I just know that I don't wanna talk to them again. That's a learning experience.

Susan 59:39

Exactly. to bring it back around to what we've been talking about, in generations bringing it in to the different job situations, that it's also incumbent upon those of us who are older to make sure that, we don't lock into the, "I've lived it, therefore I know everything," right? I think that's the better part of being a more well-rounded human being, is being able to open yourself, like you said, to, "I don't know shit," and the longer I'm alive, the more shit I don't know. I didn't think I'd see the sea change, and again, talking about mental health, I really did not see, especially in the military, especially in emergent services where, our cops ambulance workers, people cleaning up crime scenes, and including morticians, would be seen as someone that is allowed to say out loud, I don't think this is working out really well for me. I need to go talk to somebody," let alone go out and seek it. So again, I didn't see that coming. I didn't think it was gonna happen for a while yet. Certainly we're working really hard to make sure it's available to them, but I don't know, Steve, for me, it was just, it's been a big eye-opener on how that is being affected differently for the benefit of people now.

Steve 1:00:49

I didn't see it happening before, and now you see it. And, you know, I think maybe I-- If I didn't mention it earlier and I'm repeating myself, remember I'm old. But, you know, there is a department in the area here who literally I have a few clients who come from that department, and they literally sit around roll call and go and they talk, "Hey, everything okay?" Or they talk about mental health openly. "And you know what? Make sure you go talk to Steve about that 'cause he'll help you out." They talk about mental health openly at roll call I never thought that fucking day would occur.

Susan 1:01:20

Never mind go talk to Steve To be honest, when you told me about it the first time, I'm like, "Are you shitting me?" And you're like, "No, no, serious." I'm like, "Really?" I, because I don't see that happening in a lot of places around here right now. You know, for that to start slowly evolving is a major step forward for people.

Steve 1:01:36

And- And then people knowing, some people who have been in my group, some people who have heard my podcast. You know, like I, I someone asked me, "How many, what's the podcast worthwhile for you?" I said, "Well, people enjoy it, number one." And being rec- recognized at a hospital after I got hospitalized a couple of times for my physical health, just to clarify. But a nurse saying, "Hey, I love your podcast. I listen to it, and it actually helped me in my medical issue." But also having right now about three or four clients saying, "I listen to your podcast. I thought I could relate to you," and they actually see me because of that, and they're first responders. I, I, again, if you told me that would've happened f- 10 years ago, I would've been like, "Yeah, having young individuals and yes, I know I'm, you're not, you know, 40 year old, you don't feel so young, but I get that. But young people come to me and say, "Look, I want to listen and learn from you," a- again, blows my mind. Because I it's all that stuff that has occurred, and that's from the critical thought process and being able to learn. And sometimes people tell me like, "Hey, you're wrong and this is why." And I go, "Okay, why am I wrong?" And we talk about it and we exchange ideas and it's a great thing. And people are like, "You didn't seem threatened." I'm like, "Why would I be threatened? I don't know everything. I'm an idiot." And that's the stuff that I didn't think that it would happen, never mind in the mental health world, specifically not in the EMS or emergency medical s- systems that we exist. And then seeing a group of I would say two generations, I look at the Gen X and the millennials, and even the teenagers that I, like my daughter's a teenager in her group, ask me about stuff like that, not anything that I would thought about 10, 15 years ago would occur.

Susan 1:03:19

Seneca, when you were younger and I got you started in therapy, you're in the middle of that sea change with your generation. How do you see it?

Seneca 1:03:30

piggyback off of what Steve said you and I both come from a military family, and police and all that. I even thought within myself I would never see the day where military and first responders would even openly, as Steve said, within roll call to be like, "Hey you should probably go see Steve about that." I'm honestly glad that it's starting to happen, but even with my observation and, and seeing how our family and even some my, of my friends that work as first responders to be really open about it is is really a good thing.

Susan 1:04:07

Does it shock you or surprise you about how it's, how it has unfolded since you were a kid? 'Cause you started young in therapy.

Seneca 1:04:15

Yes. Because I still grew up with that, that stigma of you're gonna go see a therapist, what the hell is wrong with you? You know, or you're going to go see a therapist, well, you probably should be institutionalized. If that answers your question

Susan 1:04:31

Yeah, it does. All right, guys, we're rolling down on the clock here. So anything else we wanna chat about before we wrap it up for today?

Seneca 1:04:38

I do have a question. With the explosion of AI, do you feel as the generation before me to be on that boomer almost 1950s mentality of watching the younger generations become more lazy with it? Do you guys ever feel like, "Get off my lawn,"

Susan 1:05:02

Steve, do you wanna go first?

Steve 1:05:04

Oh, no, I was gonna say, Susan, you wanna go first? 'Cause-

Susan 1:05:07

I'll go first. There we go. Yes. Yes, God damn it. There are plenty of times I am yelling at people, "You youngsters and your crazy music and your bendy knees, get off my fucking lawn." Because it isn't so much being angry at them for, utilizing the things that they do. And I guess I'm not angry at them for not having critical thinking skills and that. I'm worried for them. Because this has not shown that it's been very helpful to vast waves of the human population, and we've been peopling since people been around. this is a repeated historical behavior pattern, I worry about that. So that, you know, when they come up with yet another tool or another social media platform or something like that, yeah, that's pretty much where I'm yelling at people, "Get off my lawn." I don't want another tool. I don't wanna deal with this anymore, okay? I am overwhelmed. I'm done. I'm working three jobs because capitalism fucking sucks. My student loan debt fucking sucks after almost 30 fucking years, and you want me to know about all the things about everything. Fuck you. Get off my lawn. I'm just gonna go in to my home with my 800 books that I haven't read yet, and I'm just gonna sit here and just be by myself. Fuck you all.

Steve 1:06:24

Okay.

Susan 1:06:24

Your turn, Steve.

Steve 1:06:25

I embrace anything that's new, and I embrace it so I can criticize it, and a little bit of what you're saying. But to criticize it so that people can grow. And so when my teenage go- daughters use AI, I'm never opposed to it, but I'm like, "What are you doing to criticize it?" Yes, their music sucks. You're absolutely right. That's true. It all sounds the fucking same. That I agree. otherwise, I think that when you talk about AI and you talk about new technologies and all that, my daughters know that I've told them, "Use any technology that works, as long as you criticize it." And if they're doing that, I'm okay with that. I'm not opposed to it. I'm very much opposed to people like, "Well, AI said," and I'm like, "Fuck off. Fuck away off." You know? Like, or people who come in and like, "I did my diagnosis through AI." Go fuck yourself. No, that you look at- I just saw Seneca's eyes bulge. Claude told

Susan 1:07:24

me. And it's like, who the fuck is Claude? What?

Steve 1:07:28

And I'm like, "No. No, that's not how it works." And,

Susan 1:07:32

Well, to be fair, before that it was Dr. Google. You know, WebMD. Right. "Yes, you have a headache, and you're going to die."

Steve 1:07:41

Well, yeah, I joked around when I went from my medical stuff to my neurologist and I said, "Hey, Doc, I looked it up and I have brain cancer, so I just... You don't need to work too hard. I already know. I checked Google." And he laughed, thankfully. Got my joke. But I think that what I feel is that our responsibility as Gen Xers who were, w- who got the Boomer attention about that stuff, is to do what we didn't get, is that, "Hey, you wanna use this new technology? You wanna do this new stuff? Don't bother me with your fucking music, do be critical of this new technology." And not critical as in it's bad or good. It's what you get from it.

Susan 1:08:20

Right.

Steve 1:08:21

And I think that that's my message to the new generation, and my daughters do use all that stuff, but I love that the fact that most of the time when they talk about even in high school, the teachers would be like, "Your daughters are critical of even AI." And I'm like, "Good. That's what they should fucking do." And I, I have hope for those who do that. I don't have hope who people said AI s- And I'm like, "Ah, don't, don't. I don't wanna hear that. I just don't wanna hear that."

Susan 1:08:47

I don't know. Did that answer your question for you, Seneca?

Seneca 1:08:50

I think so.

Susan 1:08:51

Okay. I'm very much get off my fucking lawn, I'm smacking people with my cane. Steve is a little more open about it.

Steve 1:08:57

Oh, no, I, I love my lawn. You fucking touch my lawn, you're gonna die.

Susan 1:09:04

You're in it. You are in it, man. Guys, thank you so much for showing up today because this has been a great conversation. We could probably go for another hour, but my butt's starting to go numb and I gotta move. Steve- I drank two

Steve 1:09:17

things of water, so guess where I need to go

Susan 1:09:19

oh okay, master. I'm

Steve 1:09:21

old.

Susan 1:09:24

Can't even say that with a fucking straight face. Steve, before we go, make sure people understand where they can find you, buddy.

Steve 1:09:32

You can find me at steve-bisson, B as in boy, I-S-S-O-N.com and that'll link you to all my stuff, my LinkedIn, and my Instagram, and my podcast, which is Resilience, Development and Action, First Responder Mental Health, which is my passion, and like I said, my last big thing. But more importantly always feel free to challenge me on anything. I'm always open to it. Just don't be a douche about it, 'cause if you're gonna be a douche about it, I'll be a douche right back.

Susan 1:10:01

Amen. All right. Seneca, thank you as always for being co-host. Appreciate you, kiddo.

Seneca 1:10:07

Thank you, and thank you, Steve, for taking the time to be with us.

Steve 1:10:10

Oh, thank you. It was great to meet you.

Susan 1:10:12

All right, guys. I'll catch you on the flip side.

Steve 1:10:14

Perfect.

Seneca 1:10:15

Yes, ma'am.