Destructive ideas have deadly consequences. The clearest example of this today is a set of interlocking lies around the issues of sexuality, human life, and what it means to live a fulfilled life. These lies fuel abortion, which has claimed over 60 million victims since it was legalized in the U.S. in 1973 with the Supreme Court Roe v. Wade decision. Now, the highest court in the U.S. is on the verge of overturning that deadly decision. A leak of the draft majority opinion was leaked to the press last week, leading to furor and upheaval across the U.S. Abortion, globally, is one of the most contentious debates of our time. In this episode, we address some of the most common pro-abortion arguments with the help of our guest and pro-life activist, Sami Parker. Then we examine the deeper worldview-level lies that fuel the abortion industry. To end abortion, we must do more than outlaw it. We must work to change minds at the level of worldview by confronting lies with truth.
Destructive ideas have deadly consequences. The clearest example of this today is a set of interlocking lies around the issues of sexuality, human life, and what it means to live a fulfilled life. These lies fuel abortion, which has claimed over 60 million victims since it was legalized in the U.S. in 1973 with the Supreme Court Roe v. Wade decision. Now, the highest court in the U.S. is on the verge of overturning that deadly decision. A leak of the draft majority opinion was leaked to the press last week, leading to furor and upheaval across the U.S. Abortion, globally, is one of the most contentious debates of our time. In this episode, we address some of the most common pro-abortion arguments with the help of our guest and pro-life activist, Sami Parker. Then we examine the deeper worldview-level lies that fuel the abortion industry. To end abortion, we must do more than outlaw it. We must work to change minds at the level of worldview by confronting lies with truth.
Let's look at the last time, a more powerful group of humans decided to look at a less powerful group of humans and determine their value.
Luke:Hey, everyone, welcome or welcome back to Ideas Have Consequences. And that title cannot be more fitting for today's topic. Ideas have consequences and the lies rooted in the ideas around the issue of sexuality, human life, and what it means to live a fulfilled life have led to the most devastating consequence we see in the US and globally today. As always, as Christians, our mission is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. But we cannot stop there because our mission also includes transforming the nations to increasingly reflect God's truth, goodness and beauty. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of our mission. And today, Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as you rediscover what it means to disciple the nations and create Christ's honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Scott:Well, hello again, and welcome to another episode of ideas have consequences, the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance, and we're really honored today to have with us a special guest, Sami Parker, who is a pro life activist, and she's working with a phenomenal organization called Live Action. If you're not familiar with that group, I really strongly encourage you to learn more about what they're doing, they have done more than just about anyone I know of to expose the lies and just the horrors of what is going on behind the scenes with the whole issue of abortion. Sami is just back from Washington DC, where for those of you listeners who are not up on what's happening here in the United States, we had a huge bit of news last week, we've been praying for years and years that a Supreme Court decision called Roe v. Wade, which legalized abortion, all the way up to the point of birth, very extreme ruling in 1973, that it's being heard the case is being heard that would overturn that decision. And last week, the were there was a leak in the media that indicated that there's a majority, a one person majority that's ready to overturn. And we have also a leak of the majority opinion, which is quite strong. But it's too early to rely or count on this because it was a leak. And so anyways, there's a lot of turmoil about that around that right now. Sami was back in Washington, DC. Sami, would you please introduce yourself a little bit to our audience and and tell us a little bit as well
Sami:Yeah, of course. Thanks again for having me. You already about Live Action, if you don't mind? kind of introduced me, but my name is Sami Parker. And I do work as a social media associate for Live Action. I just started full time with Live Action in November. So it's pretty recent, but I was working with them a bit before. But Live Action is a nonprofit pro life organization. It's the largest online organization. And it started back with our founder Lila Rose when she was just a teenage girl. And there was a lot of investigative work. There's a whole bunch of videos that you can find online or on our YouTube or our website, watching Lila and different other undercover people go into Planned Parenthood and abortion facilities and really expose insane things, just such crazy things. And so it started a lot with that and they're definitely recommend to go look at that if listeners haven't already. And then now we are more in the educational side trying to change hearts and minds with our content that we create, as well as legislation that we are now trying to pass and you know, trying to get the hearts and minds of government officials. We have a lot of huge campaigns that have happened in the past. One of the biggest ones that I was a part of with live action was Baby Olivia. It's the most medically accurate depiction of human development in the womb that just came out last year. And it's a really incredible video you can go to Baby Olivia I think it's babyolivia.com And watch that video and so we just work really really hard online to change hearts and minds because I think that that really changing our culture is the entire fight that we're seeing. So, yeah.
Scott:Thank you. Yeah, that's absolutely critical to, you know, not just talk about the issue of abortion, but get down to the level of hearts and minds. Sami, can you give us a little update on what's happening in Washington? What did you see? What were you doing? And how can we be praying, maybe, for what's happening right now, given the leak that happened last week? And all that's going on, give us your perspective on that.
Sami:Yeah. It was all so crazy. I was asked to go out to DC, from Oregon, in a day, just really last minute, just because we wanted a pro life presence at the Supreme Court. Because there was definitely a pro choice presence there. And so I was sent out recently to, obviously, mainly be a peaceful presence there and to be somebody who could talk to folks and try to talk to folks but also to try to interview people and see just their opinions and their views. And we knew that they would be the most extreme of pro abortion folks out there. And so the things I heard this weekend, were just so so crazy and so heartbreaking. Just hearing how intense it is, that people support–all nine months, sex selective abortions, targeting babies with disabilities in the womb–completely fine with just the most extreme, extreme things that I've ever heard of. And so this leaked draft has kind of started a whole wildfire. In DC and around the nation, really, you're seeing a lot going on in Portland and LA as well. It's getting pretty violent in Portland and LA, it has gotten violent, I don't know about DC, although I can say that they were getting pretty violent just when I was there. And I think that they are trying very, very hard to use public pressure to change the Justices' opinions. And so I guess in terms of prayer, there's a lot of things, mainly protection for the Justices and to stand true to what they have already decided and the facts of this case that it's not constitutional, it's so clear to see that it's not constitutional. So absolutely, to pray for our justices to have strength and also protection, but also to pray that more Christians will show up and be a presence because it was, you know, the Supreme Court, I know, we didn't necessarily lose with this leaked draft like this was kind of a win on our part. It's absolutely a win on our part if it goes through. But we're not even close to being done with the fight. And I don't I don't consider this, you know, the final grounds or anything like that. So prayers for Christians near DC or near anywhere really to get out and stand up for what we need to stand up for, as scary as it can be. We needed way more people out there, way more.
Scott:So Sami, just on that, were pro abortion protesters outnumbering pro life people? Were you out there?
Sami:Yes
Scott:At a Supreme Court? Okay. So we need more. Yeah, you want to have as many or more there?
Sami:Yeah, definitely. And we had a good–there was a good presence a few of the times where it was somewhat even. But I mean, we all know, you know, the most the most progressive and the most pro abortion people will show up every single day in mass numbers. So yeah, we need more pro lifers out there for sure.
Scott:What do you think it's organized on their part in terms of, you know, Planned Parenthood or their groups, you know, organizing these protests flying people in. What's your thoughts on that?
Sami:Yeah, actually, I definitely think that that is something that was going on. I was there filming and talking to people on two of the rainiest days that it was this weekend, just nonstop rain. And we saw, well, most of the protesters there didn't want to talk to us because they were part of an organization and they wouldn't say who. So they said that they were sent by an organization, they don't want to talk to a pro life group. And then we saw a lot of them, you know, come in and out of shifts. So I definitely think that they were being flown out or paid to be there. That's I mean, that's allegedly, you know, I'm not, I'm not entirely sure. But it's certainly what it looks like, yeah.
Scott:Sammy, I'm just curious, do you think the leak was intended to kick off this kind of protest, even violent protests not just in Washington and around the country, in order to put pressure on the Supreme Court to change its views or what are your thoughts on that–kind of why this leak happened?
Sami:Yeah, I think that's absolutely correct. I think it was to outrage people and scare people and to change the Justice's opinions by threatening them. I mean, you've heard that people are tracking down and protesting outside of their houses, tracking down where they're going to restaurants, to try and you know, threaten the Justices. So I don't know why else it would have been leaked. There's no other reason it would have been leaked if not to try and change their opinions, I don't think.
Scott:Okay. Look at it, the guys to see if they have any quick questions. I,
Darrow:I have one. Sami. You mentioned just the anger that you saw. What is driving that on such a deep level in people? Can you give us a sense of what you think is happening in individuals who are so deeply angry over this?
Sami:Yeah, that's a really good question. Because it's baffling, to try and pinpoint how people are so upset over over this. I So I think a lot of it is so much fear. Because there's a lot think a lot of it is being so misled by one of the wealthiest that goes down with abortion. And I know that the majority of industries in the world. Women being told that without abortion, they won't survive. That women will just be dying on pro choice people don't necessarily celebrate it the way the side of the streets with the same exact lies that they used before Roe was passed, mainly to pass Roe telling America that that the most extremes do. And they're aware that it's not thousands of women would be dying or do die with illegal necessarily, like you know, you hear that the messaging, it's abortion, which is just not accurate at all. It's completely misleading. not an easy decision, and all this stuff. So there's just there's so many emotions wrapped up in it. But I think the majority of it is just such intense fear from being so misled, and so manipulated by the abortion industry and an
Darrow:So it's fear. And the fear is basically, it's based on overall evil in the world. a lie that has been propagated, for so long, and so strongly propagated.
Sami:Yeah.
Scott:I wonder, you know, I thought it would be helpful for our audience, especially our younger people. And I know that I have friends that are that are pro, let's say pro choice, pro abortion. I just was talking to some yesterday, and I was asking them for their thoughts on this. And it seems to me that they're very vulnerable to a lot of this propaganda. And so I'm assuming that a lot of our our audience, maybe younger members of our audience, you know, have heard these things, maybe they believe them. And I wouldn't mind if it, can I get your quick response to a few of the things I'm hearing, Sami, I just would really love that just to try to set the record straight on some of this. Some of these lies and propaganda points. Is that okay with you?
Sami:Yeah, absolutely.
Scott:You know, just to kind of go through some of them fairly quickly. One that I'm hearing a lot is that, this would kind of be, if Roe v. Wade is overturned, right? If Roe v. Wade is overturned, and women who get abortions in states that have restrictions on abortions will be prosecuted and sent to prison?
Sami:Yeah, that one I do not believe that the majority of the states that want to completely shut down abortion would do that. And I can say that the majority of the pro life movement, the leaders in the pro life movement do not want that, either. Because there is so much coercion, and misleading in abortion, there's a there's a stat that 64% of women have felt that they were coerced or pressured into their abortions. And so I do not personally believe in persecuting women for having abortions, because I think there is so much cultural pressure, and so much misinformation, even when they go in to get their abortion, they are likely not told the truth by the so called Doctor. So I don't think that it would be right to do that. And I can say that the majority of the pro life movement agrees now there are those certain cases of women that know exactly what they're doing. And I don't know how that would be handled legally, but I do not believe from my knowledge that states are planning to do that or that the pro life movement wants to do that either. Yeah, so I think that that is mainly propaganda.
Scott:Could you could you just repeat really quick that stat on how many women are saying, "Hey, we were pressured into this." I thought that was pretty important there.
Sami:Yes, 64%, more than the majority, have felt pressured or coerced in some way into their abortion.
Scott:So much for choice.
Sami:Yep, exactly.
Darrow:Is there a growing sense within the pro life community to speak about two lives been involved? For so many years? It's the baby's life, the baby's life. And there are two lives that need to be protected, the mother and the baby? And is that message coming out more clearly through the pro life community? In your opinion?
Sami:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I haven't been a part of the pro life movement for very long, but I know that that is one of the main concerns of the pro choice people is that we only care about the baby. And I think that that is a really absurd claim. Clearly, that is not true. But I do think that the pro life movement needs to focus very, very hard as well on the women that are involved in abortion, because the abortion industry exploits mothers as well, pregnant mothers as well, and the women as well. There are always two people involved in an abortion. So I do think that the pro life movement is is very, very focused on the mothers, as well as on the women. I am. I know that Live Action absolutely is. And it shows, you know, with pregnancy resource centers, churches, many different groups. We all say that, you know, Live Action is the sign that we were holding up. There were a lot of signs we were holding up at the Supreme Court and the main one said, "Love them both".
Scott:Is that are you seeing that? Would you say the pro life movement is practically providing more care for women in crisis pregnancies than any other group right now in the United States?
Sami:Oh, yeah, by far.
Scott:Okay. So that would dispel that myth, because that myth is out there. So it's repeated so often that all you care about is babies and not women in crisis pregnancies.
Sami:Yes. And I do want to speak a little bit more on that, because that's one of the biggest things that I heard this weekend is that, you know, we don't care about women, we don't care about the baby after it's born. You know, we only care the first nine months. And that's so, so inaccurate. And pregnancy resource centers are run completely by pro life people that do not provide abortions, but they do provide so many free resources, so many free services, financial aid, sometimes there's even like group homes for mothers. In just one year alone, $270 million was given away in free aid by pregnancy resource centers in America, I believe that was 2020 or 2021. So, I mean, you walk into a Planned Parenthood, you can't get a free diaper. So it's really a crazy claim that the pro life movement is doing nothing or doesn't care about their mothers.
Scott:Yeah, I hear Christians repeat that to me, and it just makes me so angry that you know, this pro life side is only concerned about babies.
Darrow:My involvement over the years would always have affirmed that, yes, the pro life movement cares about the mothers and the babies. The issue is the messaging. And anybody that would take the time to look at what is going on through these centers would know that people are caring for the mothers and the babies. But how do we message it in a way that the lie is taken away? That's the question. Because we could care for mothers and babies both but still not say it in a way that challenges people.
Scott:I think if we're doing it, which we are, we just need to let people know we're providing more care for women in crisis pregnancies than anyone else. And just on that, Sami, one of the things I've heard, even my friend yesterday, she was expressing this to me, she said, "You know, I'm concerned that Planned Parenthood is going to be harmed by this because they provide so much helpful care for women in crisis pregnancies, not just abortion care, but all sorts of health care. And, you know, we need to continue to keep that available to women." I think this idea that Planned Parenthood is primarily this kind of health care providing organization and doing all sorts of good things for women is another lie and a myth. I wonder if you could speak to that.
Sami:Yeah, yeah, that's a huge myth as well. There was a video that Live Action did that I would definitely, whoever asked that question, I would absolutely recommend to go watch. I think it's called the 3% myth. There was a myth that abortion, or no, that Planned Parenthood propagated about out itself, that only 3% of their services were somehow abortions, which makes absolutely no sense. And we debunked the entire thing in a video. And honestly, I hope that Planned Parenthood is very hurt by this decision. I hope to see them go down, and I hope to see the majority of their leaders in prison because they know exactly what they're doing and they have exploited so many women and obviously killed so many children. But they do not provide very many services, you know, they'll put a woman on birth control and change her hormones for the rest of her reproductive life. They will kill her child. But they will not do much more than that. If you go in and you are a mother who actually wants help to keep her child, they will not do that. They won't offer an ultrasound most of the time unless you're going to go in for an abortion appointment after that. So that's yeah, that's an absolute lie.
Scott:Yeah, yeah. It's that one's just so pervasive out there. Maybe one more and then, you know, we'll kind of wrap up here with you. It's been great to have you. I know another thing I'm hearing is that this is the beginning of a slippery slope towards this kind of handmaidens tale of the United States being a Christian intolerant theocratic state where women will be birthing slaves and will lose all these LGBTQ advances and this and that, you know, we're hearing a lot of that fear mongering, what are your thoughts or reactions to that?
Sami:It's heartbreaking to hear all of that being said, that's just not the truth. And honestly, you do not have to be a Christian. You shouldn't have to be a Christian and I know plenty of pro lifers who are not Christians, to believe that killing innocent human beings is wrong. And that is all that this is trying to do. Overturning Roe v. Wade is not going to make gay marriage illegal. And that's insane. That's an insane claim and has nothing to do with gay marriage. This isn't about Christians taking over. This is about humans in America saying,"Hey, let's look at the last time, a more powerful group of humans decided to look at a less powerful group of humans and determine their value". And that's been a very, very, very dangerous thing in society and in history. And that's all that it is. We're just saying, hey, no human being is better than the other. No human being is less valuable than the other and we all deserve equal protection under the law.
Scott:Amen. It's just really well said. Sami, I know it's so hard to say right now, but what is your own personal thoughts? Do you think that where it stands right now is going to go through, we're going to carry that through and we're going to see an end to Roe v. Wade? And if so, how do you see your work changing, if that does indeed happen in the next few months
Sami:Yeah, I look at the world and see us not getting much here? better, because the Bible promises us that the world is broken. However, I am very hopeful about Roe v Wade being overturned because it was just such an egregiously decided law so long ago. So I am pretty hopeful that it will be overturned. I know a lot of pro lifers are pretty hopeful that it will be overturned, as long as the Supreme Court's Justices stand strong to their convictions and to what they believe is true. And as for my work, it gets more. I don't know. We stay working really hard because this is not the final victory by any means. It will return abortion law to the states, so that states can determine if they want to keep abortion legal or not. Or keep it the same as they have it. But the next thing that we need to do and do fervently and very, very seriously is fight for equal protection for the preborn, because the 14th Amendment if read correctly and interpreted correctly, grants protection to every single human being. And so that is what we fight for next, then we fight for the ending of abortion throughout the entire country. Doing so obviously by legislation but also by continuing to change hearts and minds. So the job has really only just begun and I am hopeful for for Roe v Wade.
Dwight:Yeah, I just underlying changing hearts and minds because ultimately, legislation can help that, but it has to go to that level. You know? Yeah, it's just unthinkable.
Scott:I've often heard people say we have to think almost like the issue of slavery where it wasn't that we had to outlaw slavery or ban it, but it had to become unthinkable. And I think that's the goal here as well. It just has to become unthinkable. Yep. Sami, anything else you'd like to share with us or are ways that we can be praying? Our audience and just the church in general right now, this is a really critical time.
Sami:Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a lot of prayer, but praying to, obviously for those justices for their protection and for their strength. Prayers for leaders of the pro life movement, as well as anybody in the pro life movement, there is a lot of social media censorship going on right now that I have experienced myself, as we see the industries that have more money, trying to oppress the ones that don't have quite as much power on social media. And so that is a huge, huge issue. That's the way that we get out the majority of our education and our resources for women and for people who don't know what they think about abortion, or even if they do, and so praying really hard that the truth can be heard. And that these groups can continue doing what they're doing. Because if if we lose social media, if we lose the digital aspect of our work, it gets very, very difficult, because that's where everybody is. So there's prayer to go all around. Absolutely. But those are the ones I would say that I'm praying for the hardest, at least,
Darrow:That's really helpful to hear. In addition to prayer, Sami, what other things? Is there a short list of what you'd like other Christians to consider doing?
Sami:Yeah. We need to do so much more. Because if we really in our heart of hearts believe that innocent babies are being killed by abortion, why are we not outside of Planned Parenthood's every single day? Why are we not in churches every single day working to end abortion, because we are told to stand up? For the least of these, we are told to protect each other. And I think that, really it is so convicting to think about as a Christian, like, if I really believe that this is the biggest injustice in America, why do I not see the church doing so much more. And so I know that that's definitely a convicting call. But there are too many Christians that are silent on it. So even if it's a little step, like posting it on your social media that that abortion is wrong, or if it's a bigger step, like getting a prayer group outside of a Planned Parenthood or an abortion facility, there is so much to do. And I really don't believe that as Christians, living intentionally as a Christian, I don't believe we can be silent about this. I think it is way way long do that Christians become more involved.
Scott:Well said, Sami, and I hope everyone that's listening, myself included, we take that to heart. This is something that requires prayer. But it requires personal involvement in showing up and being ready to speak out as well for the truth about what is inside of a mother's womb, a human being. Sami, thank you so much. I guess where I take a lot of heart right now is that we really are living in a time where a lot of hearts and minds are being changed and your generation and Luke's generation really is the strongest prolife generation that we've seen our country in our history, I think in many ways. And so I'm thrilled that the passion and the work that you guys are doing, keep it up. And, and you're really leading us right now. So thank you so much for what you're doing. Thanks for joining us today.
Sami:Thanks so much for having me.
Darrow:Thank you, Sami.
Luke:Hi friends after this episode. If you'd like to continue to learn about God's beautiful plan for pregnancy and the miracle of new life, I would highly encourage you check out liveaction.org and especially their video Meet Baby Olivia. I have attached a link to that in the show notes. Also, I would like to mention our free online training course called The Grand
Design:Rediscovering Male and Female as Imago Dei. I took this course a few months ago and I would highly recommend it to anyone and especially to my peers. As young Christians we are bombarded 24/7 with lies about our identity, purpose and false claims about sexual satisfaction that flies in the face of God's perfect design. For an easy four minute introduction to this course, we have a short video which I've also linked in the show notes called The Maternal Heart of God, which explains God specific designed for the crescendo of His creation, the woman. As always, if you're enjoying this episode, please help us share it by sending it to a friend.
Scott:Well, guys, let's come back and I'd love to just hear your thoughts. It was wonderful. It's very powerful to hear from a pro life activist, from Luke from your generation. As somebody who's involved right now, just back from DC. What were your thoughts or reactions to what we just heard from Sami?
Dwight:My reaction was I could hear the the trauma in her voice, and I'm just I'm impressed and proud of her? Because that's a difficult place to put yourself when you're in front of people who are really, just really passionate and almost angry and hateful. You know, it's evil, it's evil.
Scott:You're confronting evil, which is frightening and hard.
Dwight:Exactly. It creates trauma.
Scott:It does.
Dwight:Good for her.
Scott:Yeah. Yeah.
Darrow:I would agree. And just the strength of character, that someone in her generation is willing to put themselves voluntarily put themselves in that environment to expose what's going on, to challenge what's going on. Takes a lot of courage. And so that makes me hopeful that there's a generation of young people coming up who are pro life and are willing to stand in the way that Sami is.
Scott:Following your footsteps Darrow? Do you want to share a little bit with our audience of your involvement, because you were very much on the frontlines in the pro life movement? You still are, but in a particular way, you know, when you were younger.
Darrow:Yeah. When we were younger, my wife and I, Maryline and I have been involved in the right to life movement for years, sponsoring it, and engaging and probably the highlight of my life. Yeah, but one of the highlights of my life was 30 years ago, I was in the rescue movement, Join the Tescue movement, with fear and trepidation, probably like Sami was, going into the lion's den as it were. And we had a rescue movement at that time where we would go to the abortion clinics or abort-tuaries as they should be called. And we would sit on the porches of the abort-tuaries to keep the doors closed. So that people could not go in and women could not go in and have their lives destroyed, and the life of their baby destroyed. And I was arrested three times for doing that three different times. And it was traumatic for me in the sense that people that I worked with, my colleagues, people that I loved, thought I'd crossed the line. But my family blessed me for doing it. I mean, I prayed about it a while, talked with my family a while and they said yes, go for it. So I remember the first time I was arrested, it was in Tucson, Arizona, and it became one of the times in my life where I felt most alive. There are about 125-150 of us. Grandparents, teenagers, young people, singles, we were standing in front of a police station, handcuffed, our hands cuffed to our back, and policemen with big guns pacing up and down in front of us. And for what? We had gone to an abort- tuary and sat on the steps of it, and it wasn't able to open and there were women and their babies that day, who were rescued from the pain and trauma of abortion. And I'm standing there, and I never felt more alive in my life up until that moment, that was just an incredible thing. To be standing there being guarded by policemen and handcuffed and just to see these other people, probably mostly Christians, but I'm sure not all Christians, all having risk to being arrested to save the lives of babies and their mothers.
Scott:I know when I met you Darrow right out of college, I was. You know, I was at a very liberal University in Oregon. And as a young Christian, I was pro choice. I hadn't thought a lot about it, but I just supported the arguments on the pro choice side and you had a black armband on when I first met you, you wore that for many years, and I asked you about your black armband. And it was a way of well, you want to describe that? Yeah,
Darrow:Yeah, the twin holocausts, all the people that were dying every day, because of not having food, of starvation. I think there were 35-40,000 people a day dying of starvation and the children that were dying in the abort-tuaries. I call them the twin Holocausts. And I wore a black armband.
Scott:A lot of people asked,"Why are you wearing them?"
Dwight:And I was one of them.
Darrow:And so it gave me a chance to share. Well, there's two Holocausts going on in the world today. People are dying of starvation and babies are being killed in abort-tuaries.
Scott:And I think, you know, when I first met you, Darrow and I asked the question of you, we were actually hiking in the Grand Canyon, I think I asked you that we were going from the I remember this very clearly, we were hiking down from the north rim down to the bottom, which takes several hours, and we started the conversation, why are you wearing that black armband, at the top. And by the time we got to the bottom, I had changed my mind. And I think what you had done was you had, up to that point I just thought about, you know, the woman and her freedom or whatever it was, everything was focused on her I'd never thought about the baby, what's going on inside that womb? And is that a human life? It's, it was almost that simple for me, like, I just had to get my focus on that which you helped me to do. And once you do, you can't, I don't think you can honestly, keep that position anymore. And so that was a change for me. But I think we have to all remember that people need to hear this right? You can't, you know, we can't be too–I think this is your point, Dwight, earlier–we can't be too shy or feel like it's too emotional, that we don't have people in our lives that don't need to hear the argument.
Dwight:Well, an important thing we need can and need to say, is that science tells us that at the point of conception, when the sperm enters that egg, something happens. And a new human being is conceived, a unique human being that has never existed before. And that unique human being will never exist again. It is human life. It's alive. And it's human. And it's a unique human being. And science is very clear on this. And I know for many years, the abortion community would say well look at the science. They don't say that anymore. Because the science is definitive. It's human life. And when an abortion, abort-tuary, Planned Parenthood, does their procedure they are taking a human life.
Scott:Yeah, the argument shifted from science to well, when does it become a person. There was this kind of new argument, you know, it might be human, but it's not fully a person, you know, and they're trying to draw a line. And I thought, when I first you still hear, that's an argument that's being made today. And when I hear that argument, I always go to slavery. Because it's exactly the same argument that we were making during the days of slavery, right? It's not a person, it's not fully a person or its property, it's up to me to choose to deal with it up to a certain point, you tell me how you can make any argument that that's different morally than slavery. It's exactly the same moral mindset.
Darrow:And I think most of the people listening to this would recognize that when our country was founded, we had a wonderful statement that we are created equal. And at the same time, to ratify the Constitution, we had to negotiate two different perspectives. And the way it was negotiated was that a black life was three quarters of a human life. And everybody would be appalled by that today. But now we're talking about babies it kind of exactly the same way, in the same way, right? And someday, I think we will be as embarrassed, probably not in my generation, but in Sami's generation and Luke's generation. The country will be absolutely embarrassed for how they treated babies in the womb.
Scott:I really think that's the end goal for the pro life movement. It's not to overturn Roe v. Wade. I think we're on the cusp of seeing that happen, I didn't think I would see that happened in my lifetime. It's worth pausing and reflecting on that if this happens, Lord, please. It'll be a huge milestone. But overturning Roe v. Wade is not the goal. The goal is to make abortion as morally unconscionable to Americans as slavery is like nobody would even argue that we should have slavery back again. No, that's the goal here gotta make it that thinkable, unthinkable. Exactly. And I think by God's grace, we're seeing real movement in that direction, right now. I'm really encouraged by what I'm seeing. But the battles, you know, it's it's pitched, that's for sure.
Darrow:Many say. Many who support abortion say that abortion is a human right. And I would argue that if there is no right to life, then there are no human rights. It's that basic. And the question is for people who are saying, well, abortion is a human right? Where do you get the foundation for human rights? They don't fall from the sky.
Scott:Does government give them?
Darrow:No, the government can't give them.
Scott:If government gives human rights they can take them away.
Darrow:Right, right. And we've seen governments in our lifetime that have denied human rights and they're disasters. So you need to have a foundation to say, just create the whole concept of human rights. So yes. The language of somebody whose pro abortion, using the phrase, human rights, that's good, that language is good, but what is the foundation of it? Do they even, in their ideology, have a foundation for human rights? And if they don't value human life, they don't have a foundation for human rights.
Scott:If you don't support the rights to life? Its basic just to live, there can't be any human rights beyond that. That's what I'm hearing you say.
Dwight:Because obviously, you won't exist.
Scott:You won't exist. Thank you Dwight.
Dwight:You won't be here. So how can you have a right?
Darrow:So science takes this a whole long way. That what a woman carries in her womb is another human being. It's not a piece of tissue, it's not a growth. It's a human life. But where does the significance of human life come from? Not every philosophy or religion has an understanding of what the nature of human life is. And this is where the biblical message is so profound, because at the very beginning of Scripture, it says that God created and that God made us in His image. We are not primarily animals, which is where abortion begins. We are the very image of God. And this establishes the concept of our humanity being significant. And that becomes the foundation for human rights.
Scott:Yes, not just significant, I would say sacred in the sense that God created us, he owns us, we're his, you know, we didn't create ourselves, we don't own ourselves. So this biblical view of what it means to be human is you're exactly right, Darrow.
Dwight:Darrow, you love to use the word transcendent, and sometimes I struggle with that word, but really, it's the idea of otherworldly and spiritual and heavenly and to say, that we are made in the image of the transcendent being, gives us then transcendence.
Darrow:And that gives us human life is value. It's transcendent. Human life is transcendent. But this I think, is where the conflict is. So we talked with Sami about the, what's the word, the level of emotion. Emotion and passion that is happening in our country right now. And ultimately, I think it comes to the issue that you're raising here, Dwight, are we as Darwin would say, the product of evolution? We are highly developed animals, but only animals.
Scott:With no intrinsic value.
Darrow:Without intrinsic...
Scott:There is no human rights.
Darrow:That's right. Yeah, there is no human rights. And we see this in country after country around the world that is based in an atheistic ideology. They crush people who are not bowing the knee to the state. So the transcendent God is outside all creation. He is transcendent. And when he made us in His image, that transcendence became part fused in a creature. And that's what sets human beings apart from all other creatures.
Dwight:And you will not find that concept anywhere else.
Everyone:No other religion, no other religion, no philosophy, you cannot find that anywhere else.
Scott:I've heard it called the crown jewel of the biblical worldview. And I think that's in some ways, really a good way of saying it, it's the crown jewel. Now, other religions will borrow it, they'll hijack it. They'll talk about human rights, but without any basis, it's only the Bible that gives a firm basis for that idea. Go ahead, Luke. Yeah, you're
Luke:Yeah, you know what I think? I do think it's interesting, though, because like Sami said, there is a lot of people who are not Christians who are out there promoting pro life. And if you question them, why are you doing this? They would have some type of answer. Some type of virtuous moral response to that. And that goes back to how we are transcendent beings, as being made in the image of God and having God's law written on our hearts. We have this idea, from somewhere, every human has throughout history, that life is important. That killing is wrong, and life is important. And that that points back to that we all have. It's an apologetic, really, we all have this equal understanding of the dignity of life, every human through all history, every language, it's not a social construct. And I think that's, it's a really interesting point to ask someone and have them chew on, where does that come from?
Dwight:It's interesting, they asked that question of one of the representatives in the committee that formed the UN Council for Human Rights back in 1948. And he came out of the meeting where they finally affirmed human rights and the human rights declaration, which we're all familiar with. And like, 90% of the world's countries said yes to that declaration. But they asked this guy, where did you get the idea? And he couldn't answer it. He just said, Well, it just is. And that's back to your point where there's a sense inside of us, at least that we do have this right.
Scott:But if it's free floating, it won't last. It's got to be the basis. It does. Yeah. I wanted to just shift and continue to talk about abortion within the context of worldview, exactly like we're doing right now. Because behind the abortion debate is a major clash of worldviews. And you see it around human life and human dignity, right. We're seeing human life in two different ways. You know, the truth is that human life is created by God. It's sacred. It has, you know, God given human rights, the right to life. On the other side, it's not, it's a product of evolution. It's purpose less. And there is no sacredness to it, there is no inherent dignity to it. You know, we may give somebody dignity if they mean something to us, but there's no inherent dignity. So this is a battle of worldviews. Abortion is filled with these worldview battles. And I wanted to just take some time with you guys today and just flush some of these deeper battles out because you see them all around this issue of abortion. And I think for me another one. That is this, and Darrow, you've written so much on this, but what does it mean to be a woman? You know, because abortion is about pregnancy. It's about child bearing, child raising. And, boy, you've got two different worldviews at play here regarding this question of, what does it mean to be a woman? What does it mean to live the good life as a woman? This is another area where there's a huge conflict I'm going to turn it over to you.
Dwight:Darrow you only got two hours though.
Scott:You can continue to set this up Darrow, but I'd love to get your thoughts on this.
Luke:Real quick. Yeah. Right before you answer that, Mr. Miller. The reason that we're driving this discussion on abortion back to the level of worldview is because like we were talking about a second, like you were saying Darrow a second ago, is the reason this is such an emotional and heated argument is because it is at the foundation of one of the four worldview questions that every worldview is established upon. And that question is, what does it mean to be human? And the way you answer that is kind of the framework through which you'll see the rest of your life. So that's why it's such a heated argument is because it a will shake people's entire worldview. When people disagree that what is human is more than just a machine or an animal or whatever, whatever their answer to that is.
Darrow:Let me take a few minutes, like Dwight joked, we could take a couple of hours because this is such a–
Dwight:–Or four days–
Darrow:–Or four days, this is such a profound question and goes right to the root of what's going on in Washington DC now, and why people are so– Upset, animated. Over this issue. We largely today as a country are born out of an atheistic framework. And the country was not founded on an atheistic framework. It was founded on a Judeo Christian framework. But in the last 100 years, it's been an atheistic framework, 120 years. And how are human beings conceive? We
Scott:You have value in those realms. are conceived as highly evolved animals. There is no God. I become the center of the universe, my life, my feelings,
Darrow:Your value is found in those realms. So a woman who is become the center of things. And the things that are important in a materialistic universe are money and power. They become the absolutes that people strive for, we want power, we want money. Where do we find these? In the political arena, and in the marketplace, this is how we define ourselves today. having children is not valued.
Scott:She's not in those realms.
Darrow:She's not in those realms. She is conceiving of children, nurturing children, providing a space for children with her husband,
Scott:She's not getting a paycheck for that.
Darrow:Not getting a paycheck. So she is seen as not worth very much. And this, I think, is the close place where how does a woman become equal to a man? A woman becomes equal to a man through abortion, because she can have sex whenever she wants. And there's no responsibility. A man has sex whenever he wants. And go back to the marketplace or these places where he finds And as we see, in so many places today, he walks away and leaves his partner to carry a child for nine months and then raise a child for nine months. It's absolutely tragic. So you have all these children without fathers. So the father, the man, can father children without fathering children, he can have sex, quickly, get a woman pregnant and walk away. his value. Where he finds his value. So for a woman to have value, she needs to be in the marketplace. To be able to be in the marketplace,
Scott:And that's huge. I think thats what's behind so much of she needs to not be pregnant, and she wants to have sex. So you have sex without responsibility. And the way that happens is through abortion. That's one worldview. And women, they want to hold on to that. They want to be valued. the emotion on this issue. It is always it. You know, this baby that I have now inside my womb is a huge barrier to everything that I want to be. And it's not fair, men don't have that barrier, that burden. Why should I?
Darrow:That's right.
Scott:And who are you to tell me I have to? Yeah.
Darrow:From another worldview, we are made in the image of God. And one of the things I'm, I'd like to point out from a biblical the biblical pattern, we're made male and female. It's not just men that are made in the image of God, women are made in the image of God, women are made equal to men, in their very nature, not the same as men, but equal to men. So there's no sexist culture here, where a man can say, I am better than you. No. A woman can say, none of that. We are both made in the image of God. And the other thing that I pointed out is when God began to create, and again, this is where we could have several hours or days, the first thing he created was the material reality. And then he began to shape that reality. And then he created life through plants. And then he created animal life. Now there is the breath of life. And then he created human beings made in His image. So not just animals that have the breath of life, but people that bear his transcendent nature. You go to Genesis chapter two, and you see more detail about the his creation of the male and the female, and who does he create? First, he creates the male first. But he's not finished yet. And if you read through Genesis, every time he finishes something, he said, it is good, it is good, it is good. And then when he creates human beings, it's very good. So as he works more and more to give form, each thing he creates is of a higher form, as it were. So he creates man, and then what does he create? He creates woman. And women are the crescendo of creation. They are the high watermark of creation. So if you are going to brag, the woman is the one who should be bragging rights, he has the bragging rights, because she is at the pinnacle of God's creative activity. And she was made for a purpose, to bring forth life. Adam names his wife, Eve. And this Hebrew word Eve is rooted in the Life Giver. That is the concept. Who gives life? God gives life. And if those of you who are listening to this can hear me at this point, God is the giver of life. And he made women in his image, like men, but he made them different. He made them to be life givers. And that is absolutely profound. And so you have on the one hand, the narrative that begins with God and with creation, where women are highly esteemed, because they are the life givers. And you have another narrative that denies God that reduces us to animals, survival of the fittest. And where is worth found? It's found not intrinsically, but it's found in the marketplace. And how do you get in the marketplace? How do you stay in the marketplace? It's by denying your very nature.
Scott:Yeah, you know, I think they are of Margaret Sanger, you know, who was one of the most evil Americans that's ever existed, you know, and she was the founder of Planned Parenthood and this is really what drove her. To be equal with men. We need to be able to control but we need to separate procreation from sex. And that led to abortion. And because it's not valued, it's a hindrance. It's a barrier. It's shackles. And here's this other worldview. It's not shackled. It's not a hindrance. It's not a barrier. It's the superpower.
Darrow:It's a superpower.
Scott:Those are very different worldviews, very different understandings of what it means to be a woman.
Darrow:Yeah.
Dwight:And I want to interject something too, because I have heard you speak for four days on this. For good or for bad. No, it was good.
Darrow:I hope it was good.
Dwight:Yeah, no. But one thing I think our audience should know, since there's three white older males talking. The rest of
Darrow:That becomes the dilemma. Or the big lie when you the story for you, Darrow, is really, I think it needs to be clarified, too, because what you're talking about here is, in a sense, this transcendent purpose of human life, which is to give life and to nurture life, and to bring life, and males have a role in that, and and we give life and in terms of sexuality, as well. But you're just emphasizing the crescendo, the Christian, and yet, this is our purpose in life. But it's think for a man or a woman that your virtue, your status is not the only purpose for any person. Now, that's where some people go, Oh, so you're just saying that it's a purpose of women to have babies and grow them? That's not what you're saying. Because I've heard you on this. And that doesn't mean we don't have places in the marketplace. It doesn't mean that everybody doesn't have a place in the political. But that's not where your value, transcendent value comes. found in the marketplace.
Scott:Of how much money do I make my paycheck?
Dwight:You speak really profoundly about the role of women in the marketplace? You speak profoundly of women in the political sphere? Sure, and their gifts and what they can do and leadership and roles like that. I just want people to hear that as well.
Darrow:No, it's true. It fits in but that doesn't define their core nature, right? For a man or a woman. Yeah, last night, my son, oldest son invited Maryline, his mom, my wife, to dinner, and Nathan had his whole family there. And we didn't know the whole family was going to be there. But we showed up at the restaurant. And here's three of our grandkids and my son and his wife, and we walk in, and Maryland said, "I did all this". At every everybody laughed, of course. But it's true. This group of people would not be there if Maryland had not been a mother. And then Shannon, our daughter in law said, "Well, I did a lot of this too". Yeah. Yeah. And they were celebrating motherhood.
Scott:I think it's a really good clarification to it. But I just think we've got two different world views on this issue. What does it mean to be a fulfilled woman. One is going to say motherhood is a hindrance and a barrier, and I've got to have abortion, right, because it's that that's where it becomes a right, you know, to living a fulfilled life. The other says, your value isn't isn't limited to this but a significant part of your value is the fact that God made you in a unique way, to procreate, that to be a mother and to raise children that's very, very valuable.
Darrow:Well, it's not just a woman, to have children. It's been a Imago Dei. That's the value for men and women. And it transcends any other value of trying to make people valuable. No, this is the foundation of my existence and value. It's the foundation for human rights. It's the foundation for people going into the marketplace and creating things. All of that is rooted in this fundamental principle.
Scott:Yeah. Well, I think you know, one of the ways we need to be speaking to this is we need to have biblical values on these things and be reflecting of those values in the way that we talk to and we treat each other. We need to reflect biblical values on these things and be careful about that. I think another key worldview issue if I could change the subject, but not much, that surrounds abortion is just sexuality. What is sexuality? And to me abortion has grown out of again Darwinian view of sex, if you will. That really seeks to decouple sex and procreation. Just make them separate things all together. And because it wants to have sex, but it doesn't want to have responsibility that comes with
procreation:children. On the other side, on the biblical side, the true side, I would say, those two things are inseparable. Now, that doesn't mean every time you have sex, you have children. But they're deeply, deeply interconnected. God made it that way. These aren't to be separated. Sex and procreation. Do you want to talk a little bit about just how distorted that issue, just the issue of sexuality has become, because of abortion, or I know abortion is a fruit of this, but let's talk about that, because I think it's very easy for people, even Christians, I hear this with young Christians, you know, they don't like to talk about sex together with procreation.
Darrow:No, because family is not significant. In the modern world, the individual is significant in the modern world, the individual is sacred, as it were, the center of things. Not the community, not the most basic community of a family. Going back to Genesis, we were made to procreate, to have families, to fill the earth with families. And those families were here for a purpose, to take what God has made, and to help it flourish, to make it flourish, to be entrepreneurial, to be creative, to cultivate the garden. So that what God has made flourishes. That's why we're here. And family formation is critical to that purpose occurring. In the modern world, everybody is reduced to an individual, not necessarily part of a larger community, or a family. And so we find that family formation is not happening very much anymore. And sex has been reduced from a sacred activity. Not a religious activity, but a sacred activity, in all of its beauty, and all of its wholeness. spiritually, emotionally, physically, it is whole. It has been reduced from that to entertainment, just a pastime, a pastime to sports, to entertainment. And so you meet at a bar or restaurant and you go out and have sex, it's just part of the evenings, entertainment.
Scott:And abortion enables that.
Darrow:And abortion enables that. It enables us to not take responsibility for one of the most beautiful things in the world, and reduces that beautiful thing to something that is not very fulfilling for people.
Scott:Well, I just want to underscore that Darrow you know, to call it a beautiful thing, I think is an understatement in some ways. It's an amazing miracle, you know, that a man and a woman, my wife and I could come together and nine months later here comes a human being.
Darrow:That never existed before.
Scott:That never existed before. And I didn't do that. Right? I mean, I didn't create that human being. In that perfect way with those eyes and those fingers and those–
Darrow:Well, you contributed.
Scott:I contributed, but I didn't do it. God did that. Right. And but God gives us a role to play in this miracle. It's one of the most profound things that exists.
Darrow:Your wife did it.
Scott:We work together.
Darrow:Well, I know that was the conception point.
Scott:Yeah.
Darrow:But it was hear gestating Luke, for nine months. That was the work part of it.
Scott:And the delivery was some work.
Darrow:And the delivery was part of the work. And now you have Luke sitting in Oregon, running this show, and doing a marvelous job.
Scott:My point is that it's so incredible. It's such a powerful miracle, this bringing forth of new life together with God, that God says you do that within a particular context and that context alone, and that's marriage. Because it's to bring forth children that can be raised. These things in a biblical worldview, go to the other sex procreation, marriage and family, they all are tightly tied together.
Darrow:And they're glorious.
Scott:And they're glorious, and they fulfill fundamental parts of our purpose and God's purpose for the world. The modern world, the secular world is taking those things apart. Yeah, it's separated all of those things. Sex separated from procreation. Sex is separated from marriage. Sex is separated from families. This standalone thing. And that's a lie. It's not, you know, that's a lie.
Darrow:Let me add something the church very often is afraid of talking about sex, because it's dirty. And the church should be promoting the story. The whole story, yes, beginning in Genesis one and two. And so the people begin to understand the glory of human sexuality, the glory of family formation, the glory, of creating things here on earth that will be refined, and decorate the halls of heaven. These are glorious things. And it is a narrative, that is true, that we as the church need to be sharing these things so that the larger society has a different concept of sex, and family.
Scott:And it's not that we've got these two views, these two conflicting worldviews, it's that one of them is true, and one of them is false and a destructive lie. And so we've got to see it in that way, so that we have the courage to speak the truth, people need to hear the truth about what sex is. About procreation. What does it mean to be a woman? This isn't just my view, this isn't just what I think is right? This is true. And it's what leads to flourishing.
Darrow:And this is a battle of worldviews being played out in our nation's capitol, being played out in our communities all over the country. These are, and I think this is why there's so much heat and tension going on today. Because these are so profoundly different concepts of what it means to be a human being, what human life is, and what the purpose of life is.
Scott:Luke, I'd love to hear any thoughts that you have in reaction to our discussion here, just coming from your vantage point.
Luke:Yeah, I love that point. You guys were just saying there. And it's something that I, when Sami was talking at the beginning, I could hear very clearly is, this isn't our opinion that we're talking about here. This isn't just another say, religion that we're talking about here. This is, this is truth. This is based in reality. And no matter what people say, how mad they get, how angry they get, this is a fact that we're made in the image of God, that children are a blessing. I mean, just we come into life with nothing, we leave life and go to heaven with nothing, except some of us get to bring along kids, which is really cool. The only thing that we're going to have from this life in heaven is maybe the kids that we have here, which I think is really cool. But yeah, having that courage of her convictions just in the way we're talking, this isn't, "oh, I think" or "my opinion is" or "I believe this". You can state it as a fact. Humans have dignity, life is valuable. Sex and having kids is beautiful. And anything else is wrong. It's evil. And it's from the devil and we live in a broken world. And we're going to see that, and we're going to have to fight against that. But we don't have to fight against it passively. We can speak truth with absolute love. The most loving thing we can do here is to promote life.
Scott:Oh, go ahead, Dwight.
Dwight:Yeah. And one other thought that's racing through my mind. And I'm not sure I can articulate it well, but you know, you've got to believe this because it's true. And I'm thinking yes, it is. And then I'm thinking of my own life experience. And I'm thinking you know, I appreciate family, we honored mothers yesterday across our nation, maybe across the world, I don't know who all celebrates Mother's Day. I know they do in Latin America in different days. But this idea of motherhood, of fatherhood, of family, you don't have to be a Christian to appreciate that and to realize goodness and brokenness and the pain that that causes. And you can rest in that. And then I'm thinking but we need to go the next step and go, and God did this. And God created this. God set this up for us. And so what we're enjoying and what we, you know, I think about my life now, you know, you guys can all go away and I still have my kids, and I live for them, and I take care of them. And then after that I go, how can I help Darrow? How can I help Scott? How can I help Luke? And that's part of my extended family then, but it all goes down to what is God provided for us thats so good. And I'm going, it's my family, and my wife and our relationship and sex, sexuality as part of that bonding, whole scenario and production of kids. I mean, it's just amazing. Now, God, you did this. Wow.
Darrow:And we can laugh. You did this God, this is amazing. Who would have thought that He would have done this?
Scott:No, it's such an amazing thing when you consider God doing this thing with us. Yeah. And then, you know, somewhere along the line, we name that new human life and God says I'll call, you say Darrow, I'll call that person by the name you give them, very much like the Garden of Eden. I mean, it's just the whole thing is amazing. So yeah, we have to be people that share that amazing story. As the true story and that people know, I think honestly, deep inside people know that this is true. And so I think that's really, that's a takeaway for all of us. I want to bring our discussion to an end. Go ahead, Darrow. Yeah.
Darrow:Yeah, just, I was reading something the other day about Abraham Lincoln. At the time of the Civil War. He gave his "house divided" speech, as it were. And he said, "A house divided cannot stand". And of course, at that point in our history, it was the slave states, and the free states. And Lincoln said, this will not stand. And the only way that this will be resolved is that this nation will become all of one or all of the other. And we are at that same point today. It's not slavery and freedom. But the issues are as deep and profound as they were then. And they're dealing with the nature of human life. And we are a divided nation, almost 50/50. And if we listen to Lincoln, this "House Divided" will not stand, it will become all of one or all of the other. And this I think becomes a call to the church. It's a call to the church. Don't just think you can putz along. And we can just putz along and everything, whatever it's going to happen is going to happen and everything's going to be fine. No. We have a responsibility to speak about life, and model life and create spaces like the church has been doing. But we need to do it in spades, where the baby's life and the mother's life are cared for and valued. Because it will be all of one or all of the other. And we have to ensure that life is what's honored in the end.
Scott:I'm glad you brought us to this. This is helpful Darrow to bring us to slavery in the United States. Because as an American, I think we all, not just me, but I think all Americans look back on the time of slavery, which was horrific. As one of the greatest evils that we've ever committed as a nation that we enslaved.
Darrow:And we recognize hundreds of thousands of people as a nation, we now recognize it as evil.
Scott:We saw them, black slaves as less than fully human, as private property, as we saw as property. I just want to tell people that as much, especially young people who care about justice, as much as you may think that that was the worst injustice that we've ever committed. It wasn't. As horrible as it was. I'm not saying it wasn't, it was horrible. It's what's going on right now. Because as we talk about abortion, I think it's important to remember that we're not just talking about a few abortions, we're talking about, Darrow what's the number right now? 60 million.
Darrow:Since Roe versus Wade.
Scott:73. In my lifetime, I often think about this. This is largely in my lifetime, the greatest injustice that's ever occurred in our nation at least as far as the number of lives lost that are not here with us. And that in the issue is so identical. It's property, right? It's a property of a mother to dispose of as she chooses. It's not fully human, etc, etc. It's as deeply unjust as slavery ever was. And it's greater in the sense that there's been vastly more lives loss than were lost during slavery. Right now, in our lifetime. So I think that I just say all that to say, we can't just be, as you were saying, that we can just be passive observers to this right? You know, we look back at those slave owners and say, how could we, you know, couldn't they have done more, right, to speak up for justice? Something? Right. Well, now's our time. Right? So this is happening right now. Right as we speak, it's happening. So, I just want to underscore how urgent this is. This is the justice issue of our generation. In my mind, there's nothing that comes close to it. Dwight, Darrow, Luke, any final thoughts? All right. Well, I want to encourage all of us to pray right now is, as we were, Sami was encouraging us. Let's pray for our Supreme Court Justices. For those of us who are American citizens, even for our friends listening from abroad, please pray. This is a really vital time right now, because they're under threat. They're being threatened right now. I'm sure they're receiving death threats. And the whole point of this is to frighten them and scare them and intimidate them. It's mob tactics in order to changing their vote because whoever leaked it could see the way that this was going, not just on the Supreme Court, I think in the nation overall. Thank God for that. But we can't allow these mob tactics to prevail. So we've got to pray for our Supreme Court Justices. And yeah, pray, ask God, what can I do to play the role that you want me to play on this greatest of all civil rights issues and justice issues of our generation? All right, well, thanks for listening. It's great to be with you guys.
Luke:Thank you for listening to this episode of ideas have consequences brought to you by the Disciple Nations Alliance. For more information on our ministry, go to disciplenations.org. And check out our resource page. There you will find free online training courses, books, blogs, and hopefully everything else you need to continue to think biblically about everything.