Christians are increasingly criticized for their opinions in the public square and often labeled as Christian nationalists. But should this criticism cause us to retract our opinions and retreat? Or is Christian cultural engagement exactly what our nations need? We are called to faithfully reflect Christ not only in our personal lives, but everywhere–in our families, churches, workplaces, and yes, truth must even influence politics, and our work in public institutions and culture. Our guests, Dennis Peacocke and Katherine Gallagher from our affiliate organization, GoStrategic, help us consider strategies and practical ways that we can meaningfully engage in these areas for Christ, and for the nations.
Christians are increasingly criticized for their opinions in the public square and often labeled as Christian nationalists. But should this criticism cause us to retract our opinions and retreat? Or is Christian cultural engagement exactly what our nations need? We are called to faithfully reflect Christ not only in our personal lives, but everywhere–in our families, churches, workplaces, and yes, truth must even influence politics, and our work in public institutions and culture. Our guests, Dennis Peacocke and Katherine Gallagher from our affiliate organization, GoStrategic, help us consider strategies and practical ways that we can meaningfully engage in these areas for Christ, and for the nations.
We're not going to affect the institutions of culture until we begin to live and think strategically, because we're competing with a world which is always strategic and we bring nothing to the game, so to speak, until the Holy Spirit begins to open this reality to us.
Luke Allen:Year 3 of Ideas have Consequences the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. If you're new to the podcast, here on this show we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world to all the nations, but our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God, to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Scott Allen:Welcome everybody to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. I'm Scott Allen and I am joined today by team members Luke Allen, Dwight Voate, Darrell Miller, and we have some really special guests and friends today. Actually, we're having Katherine Gallagher back, the executive director of Ghost Strategic. Hi, Katherine.
Katherine Gallagher:Hello, thanks so much for having me.
Scott Allen:Awesome to have you today, and Dennis Peacock, katherine's father, the founder of Ghost Strategic, is with us as well. Dennis, it's great to have you.
Dennis Peacocke:I'm very glad to be here with you.
Scott Allen:Oh man, it's just a thrill, honestly, for us to have both of you guys with us today, and I think you know that over the many years that we've been doing ministry together our paths have been kind of woven together in different ways. We haven't done a lot directly, but indirectly I know we've felt very supported and encouraged by the ministry that you guys have been doing. So anyways, it's just wonderful to have you. You have you with us today.
Dennis Peacocke:Feelings are mutual.
Scott Allen:Let me just give our listeners a little bit of background, and I would. You guys are well, I would love to have you guys go into as much detail as you want, but just on your background. Your bios are very interesting, dennis. You are from Central California, I believe, and I saw that you are a graduate of University of California, berkeley back in the 1960s. Political science is what you studied is as I was reading, and those were interesting times Not that I was there- but I've read about them, so Believe me, they were the best of times and the worst of times.
Scott Allen:I'm actually reading a book right now by Christopher Rufo on kind of the woke revolution that's been happening in our culture right now and he goes back and looks in great detail at the Black Power movement and all that was happening in California in the 1960s and just fills in lots of detail for me that I wasn't aware of. But it's fascinating. You actually lived through that, it sounds like so.
Dennis Peacocke:I was in the middle of it all. Wow, no, I was a great privilege. Seriously, I thank the Lord literally for that, because it was a precursor to my life, my ministry, my passion. I was there at the birth of the new left. Yes, in the long run, it changed more there because we're living off the debris of the decisions that were made by our generation, the baby boomers. So, yeah, no it's. I came there to on my athletic scholarship on my way, I hoped, to the Olympics, which I tried out for earlier, and maybe the NFL, because I was fast, I was a sprinter running back. I had a lot of black friends. I knew Eldridge Cleaver well.
Dennis Peacocke:No, it was around the Panthers yeah, wow, everybody in their dog went through Berkeley in those years. It was.
Scott Allen:Did you meet people like Angela Davis or Herbert Marcus or those folks?
Dennis Peacocke:Yes, I didn't meet Marcus. I enjoyed the battle between he and Sart as they were trying to merge. The failure of that in 1968, from my point of view, was really the end of Western philosophy, but that's another story. But yeah, I mean it was very, very regular to drink with Janice Joplin. I could go on and on Drank tea, right, yeah, exactly. Well, no, I was unsaved at that time, I know. Yeah.
Scott Allen:Well, I mean, that alone could be the focus of the rest of the podcast it would be so interesting to go into into that, that history I would like to hear.
Scott Allen:And well, first of all, catherine, to you know, this is your father and I imagine you, you know, were shaped by a lot of that history yourself, kind of indirectly, and I know you've you're a graduate of of Azusa Pacific University been very involved in speaking and teaching on biblical issues, especially around family and human sexuality. So anyways, it's, yeah, I just I'm fascinated by, by you guys's background. We're going to talk mostly about Dennis's book, winning the Battle for the Minds of Men, which has been recently re-released, and we have had a chance to go through that and have really been enjoying and appreciating it. So much of Dennis, of what I picked up, and you are the founder of Go Strategic, but really it's about strategy. It's about how does the Christian and how does the church, or how ought the church, to influence culture.
Scott Allen:And I can't imagine that you weren't shaped by the experiences in California, because one of the things that I you know of the 60s, one of the things that has struck me as I've looked into this as well, is that these folks that were part of that cultural revolution in the 1960s that were now kind of reliving through in, you know, this time they don't give up. They are and they're quite strategic. You know, they face all sorts of setbacks and it looks like, you know, everything has come to an end and it's all going to be dead. And then the next thing, you know, it's back. You know, and it's it's. They're quite strategic and I know, in my own reflection on this, I've thought why isn't the church as strategic, you know, when it comes to living out our faith in a way that makes a difference in the culture? And it seems like that's why.
Dennis Peacocke:I wrote the book.
Scott Allen:Yeah, yeah, I was thinking yeah well, tell us more about that dentist. Yeah, tell us, why did you write the book?
Dennis Peacocke:Yeah, well it would go into my history there. I got injured not you know, fatally, but I tore up hamstrings and when that happened it was an identity crisis and Berkeley was a heck of a place to have an identity crisis in the early 60s. So I've been very affected by my relationship with my black friends again, as I, you know, as a white guy that could run with the brothers and the civil rights movement came along. I was born and raised in Seattle so I had no idea what was going on in the south and most of us that were not in the south had no idea. But when I got to Berkeley and was, we had, you know, numbers of people on the south on the football team and I began to find out what was going on in the south, I was offended to the core of my being. One of the players on the team used a very heavy statement about me because he watched how much friendship I had with my black brothers and he called me, you know, use the N word and that guy changed my life. I had never had a chance to thank him for it, but that racist comment, somehow his words penetrated my spirit on a level that alienated me from the culture and racism became a big deal.
Dennis Peacocke:I got involved in the civil rights movement. I was arrested in the free speech movement which the and I was on an athletic scholarship and of course the administration were scandalized that I would do that. It made the newspaper that you know one of the football players did was involved in that. But as I radicalized I was also intellectually awakening and Berkeley was a great place to do that.
Dennis Peacocke:My major was, in theory, political theory, history of political theory, professor Sheldon Wholen, who if you look him up it'll say he was one of the preeminent political thinkers of the 20th century and I became a friend.
Dennis Peacocke:He is not close but and as I radicalized I moved towards Marx and which would be the normal place to move, and I was in and around the new left leaders as they were forming and the course marks and angles and all that had a huge effect on my thinking, not the least of which was the left actually pays attention to history, studies history, exercises energy and you know, in the same way that in DC there's two parties, the evil party and the stupid party, the, you know, conservative Christians who I'm still wondering in some, some levels, how did they get where they are. But the left had a playbook. I was in and around the playbook and they've exercised the playbook for 50 years and I'm a guy that, knowing what the game was, I feel like I've been trapped in a play, that we knew what, where it was going from the beginning, and that was one of the reasons, by the way, I decided that if I ever had children, I'd educate them myself.
Dennis Peacocke:I got out of Berkeley, dropped out of the graduate schools, but I got a tremendous education there and I'm very grateful for that. But I did want to, you know, educate our children myself, which I did with my wife. I was a TA in the speech department and my wife was one of my students, which we got involved after she got out of the class. But the net of all that was when I came to Christ. I read the Bible as a political economist, literally, because that macroeconomics and worldview was, you know, the fashion and passion of my life and my great amazement as I read the scripture and began to see how much economics and strategy was in there. It's like, hey guys, where are you? Where are you? Why am I seeing what I'm seeing? So in the beginning that was a great challenge and, as it turned out, we did educate our kids. We did our own worldview. We ended up starting creating curriculum for schools Our church groups were part of.
Dennis Peacocke:But I came into the kingdom again with the gift of seeing where the opposition was, the way they thought, what they do, and again excited about the awakening of the church, at least some for civil rights. But beginning to, I knew Frankie Schaefer and you know a number of the guys that were also emerging at the same time. So that really has been the story of my life was the strategy of the kingdom of God and how it is supposed to relate to the ecclesia. When I when I found that the Greek word for church was ecclesia, I went nuts because I studied the ecclesia. You know, back when 600 AD and my whole foundation of worldview began with the Greeks, up to the attempt attempted fusion of Marxism and existentialism.
Dennis Peacocke:You brought up Maccousa. I was in that with a lot of those of us idealistic, recognized that when he and Sartre couldn't get it together, that was the end of what we call Western philosophy. So forgive me for speaking so quickly, but you got a fire hose here when you when you bring up the 60s and what it was like to be in it.
Darrow Miller:I just as an aside your background in Marxism the lady that runs a publishing company that publishes our books in Spanish. She's an Argentinian who was a Marxist and had a radical conversion to Christ. Her name is Viviana Valey and her heart is to see South America transformed and she understands the power of ideas for that. And another friend of ours is Marvin Olaski. Oh yes, I'm sure you know his name.
Dennis Peacocke:I am very familiar.
Darrow Miller:And he, he was a Marxist. So it's interesting that three people that are my age started out as Marxists, and just to have a sense of what God has done with their lives. It's just, it's really, it brings a chuckle and it's fun.
Dennis Peacocke:So it is fun. I I'm disappointed. Most of the left guys, I know they don't understand their own philosophy. It is amazing to me how superficial a lot of the left is in terms of what the essence of, of what was about the revolution and the ways that it was to change. And again, for me I feel like I'm trapped in some kind of a time warp because I'm what I've watched the left go after the schools. I knew that they'd identified the professorial world they were going to conquer. I mean, they've played out their handbook. I got to give them credit for that.
Scott Allen:Yeah, they really, they really have, and I think that's you know, I think that's what's kind of surprising to me is just how effective they've been really with horrible ideas that destroy culture. And here's the church, you know, here we are as Christians, with God's Word and these powerful and beautiful principles that build up, you know, and create life and create beautiful cultures, whether it's at the level of a family, all the way up to a sports team or, you know, an entire nation.
Luke Allen:Hi, friends, if you'd like to learn more about how you can disciple your family, your workplace, your school, your society or even your nation, make sure to check out our flagship online training course here at the Disciple Nations Alliance, which is called the Kingdomizer Training Program. We live in a world of poverty, corruption and injustice. We all know this isn't the way it should be and help needs to come from somewhere. But who is responsible to fight poverty and bring healing to our broken communities? The government or the church? The answer is the Church, but unfortunately, we have largely neglected this responsibility here at the Disciple Nations' Alliance.
Luke Allen:For the last 25 years, we have worked around the world helping Christians understand that our mission is more than saving souls for heaven, as we've mentioned multiple times during this episode. Our mission also includes being the hands and feet of God to transform the nations and bring healing, joy and transformation to our broken communities. If you'd like to learn more about how you can play a part in God's plan for the nations, check out the Kingdomizer training program, and that is available at quorumdayocom. Join over a million others who have learned how to bring biblical transformation into every corner of society by signing up today at quorumdayocom. Again, that is quorumdayocom, or you can always find the link in the episode page.
Scott Allen:And, like you said, dennis, it seems like we haven't thought strategically. We haven't In fact. I was just listening the other day and I wanted to get your response to this. I was listening to we're having this conversation when there's so much to talk right now in the broader culture about Christian nationalism and the danger of Christian nationalism, and I was listening to a Christian on a prominent media network I can't remember exactly what it was, cnn maybe and he was saying he was talking negatively about Christian nationalism and saying that Christians that care too much about the country or the culture are the real problem, that we should remember that we're citizens of heaven, and the implication was we shouldn't really have anything to do with what's going on down here. That too much kind of concern about this world is a distraction and it's so. You've got that going on right and it seems like that's.
Scott Allen:And on the other side you've got very strategic people that don't quit and consequently they've kind of like taken over every institution at this point. You know, and what are your thoughts on that? Or how do you? You know, I know a big part of your book, dennis, is kind of this the church is God's people. We love the church. The church has this incredible mission, but it's not doing it.
Dennis Peacocke:Well, it suffers from a very serious identity crisis. Again, when you read the word ecclesia and it's the word that Jesus used, which would have been very offensive to his Jewish pals, because you know why would we borrow a Greek term for something they understood the ecclesia was a gathering, elected gathering, people that were called to be in the ecclesia, similar to like the house of a political party or a political group. That's really what ecclesia was was managing. The early Greek city states in the constitutions that they'd created, the ecclesias were the ones that interpreted the devices and the philosophy that their constitutions were.
Dennis Peacocke:But again, to me it's a major theological problem and that is the separation of time and eternity, in a way that the Bible fuses time and eternity. And they have so separated life on earth from life in the future that their attitude is well, the earth is crumbling and it's all, it's all going to go bad. In any event, why would you put energy into a failing institution? And I would say you don't understand. Are you aware that life here is a preparation for eternity? Eternity is the main game. What we're here for is learning skill sets and learning spiritual maturation in this context, and we will take that with us.
Dennis Peacocke:You get into Paul and 1 Corinthians 3 and start talking about what passes from life into death the skill sets, the character, the things that God has put us to learn here in the warm up. We're in the gymnasium for the main game, but they're connected together and it's the skills that are involved in caring for people and things that prepare us to, with Jesus, manage the creation. That's what Paul said, that you know that when I hit and immediately understood. The game is, you know, not going to heaven and singing. It's going to heaven and bringing into heaven what we've learned in the process here and God's goal is to share the creation and the maturation of the creation through his children and once you understand that, it makes time here relevant to the future and not disconnected.
Scott Allen:That's such a you know, I think you're on to something that's so important, Dennis, and so profound, and one of the things I loved in your book, amongst other things, was you use the illustration of our human bodies to talk about this subject of time and how in the Bible, you know, we have our physical bodies here, but then there we're going to have our heavenly bodies as well. There's a continuation of these things. Now, this physical body that I have is deteriorating, right? I mean, this is, it happens to everybody, right? We get old and get sick and eventually they, we, die, right?
Scott Allen:So this physical body, you know, deteriorates, but there's this kind of connection to the heavenly body as well, right, and just because this physical body deteriorates, we don't think, oh well, it doesn't matter if I take care of it, right? What's the point? You know, I'll just, you know, I'll just. I mean, actually, some people do think this, but you know what's the point of caring for my body now? It's going to end up in the grave, dust, whatever it is. You know, we know we don't typically think that way, even though that's true, we still care for our bodies because we're going to have these heavenly bodies talk about that. I just thought that bringing it down to that level was really powerful.
Dennis Peacocke:Well, the whole again issue is is growing into a character that makes us safe with power. Growing into a character that makes us safe with power. The power when we go into, when we graduate into the real game which is eternity, in this little pinprick called time. This pinprick is designed to get us in a trajectory that, when we go into eternity, we understand the game is. God wants to share his creation with us and use it to mature us, because his purpose for us is not just avoiding sin, it's to become partners in his creation. Therefore, this less the main lesson here is learning how to care for what God has given to me and you and seeing where that would go if it was carried on into eternity. The things that I'm learning here are going to be the primary things that are in the trajectory of when I go into eternity, and that, to me, is just it was so obvious I've. Satan has done a really good job and I praise him not, but he's done a great job in trivializing what salvation is. Salvation is the beginning of a fusion of God's children into his. The life that he lives, the brain that he thinks, with the passions that he has as a father. That is what he is bringing his kids into, and that means we are going to be a part of managing, co-managing in Christ and we have this time now to begin to care for the skill sets. And the other phenomena was you know, most Christians it's like they have no sense that eternity is organized. It's not. It's not something that is chaos, it is highly organized and the whole principle of organization, skill sets and not just building relationships, but in building institutions. We will be involved in building institutions in eternity and that just changes everything when you begin to see that from what most Christianity is talking about.
Dennis Peacocke:And you know, you brought up, I brought up, and I think it'd be interesting for Catherine to share. What was it like to grow up with us? Because my wife, jan, had a similar major. Her major was political theory as well. I had more macroeconomics than what I did. I worked as an economist when I dropped out of Berkeley. But, being raised in that environment, we, we submerged our children in it, because for us the game was we go as a family into eternity in the same way that God put us together here. So you might be interested in what Catherine had to say about what was it like to be raised in this kind of a view of life.
Scott Allen:Yeah, what did you? What, what, what, what things do you? Did you take away from all of that, Catherine, as you were growing up in this family?
Katherine Gallagher:Yeah, I think I didn't realize how unique my upbringing was until maybe around college, when I started having conversations with different people and I'm like, wait, you didn't talk about that normally or you didn't learn about these things, or you know I just for me, what was normal, you know, was not necessarily. I mean, from a very young age, they were very. When I'm listening to someone what he's saying and I think about it relative to being raised in it, I'm thinking of an awareness of stewardship from a very young age that you know that were designed to God's, designed us to be stewards of everything our body, our spirit, our mind, all those things I'm thinking about. Obviously, dualism comes into play here, you know, being aware that there is not that separation of the sacred and the secular and that we're meant to be unified and holistic in how we approach things and this is something I've definitely tried to be strategic with my children in as well is, you know, from a young age, what are the key principles that they can understand, that we're trying to sew into them, you know, in regards to these big ideas and so with a little kid, you know, it does come down to that that, yes, jesus loves you and you're saved, but you're not saved just to go to heaven. Your saved could. God wants you to make a difference on earth and what you do here matters, and even in a little level.
Katherine Gallagher:You know I remember with being a little kid, I mean I remember being very aware from a young age of wanting to evangelize and wanting to help with my community.
Katherine Gallagher:You know, being aware that we're called to serve in our communities, all those things and that can trickle down in simple terms with your kids just as much as it plays out in big terms of how do we run this country.
Katherine Gallagher:You know what are some of the big issues, because you know it's all the same ultimately with axiomatic truth if it's true with your little kid managing them in your home as a young mom, those principles apply also with our Congress. And you know that's what I love with some of the ideas that we're talking about here, because once you start to understand the key, some of the key big ideas, it's very freeing because then you can identify them in all the different jurisdictions, how they, how they roll out and some of the things here, little sideplug, some of the things that he's been talking about. Here too, he really goes into more detail also in his other book, which I know we weren't necessarily talking about today. But doing business God's way really goes after some of the stewardship and organizational building ideas that he's talking about here, because that's what we're all called to, right? So yeah, I just want to underscore.
Scott Allen:I think what you're saying, catherine, is so important. You know, when we talk about Christian engagement in the culture in a way that brings positive change, typically Christians will think politics right. And they'll think you know, we've got it. You know, and there's nothing wrong with politics. You've got a chapter on that in your book, dennis. We need to be engaged politically, but what they don't think about is just their own lives, like you say, raising. You know how they're governing themselves, their children, this, these very basic things that everyone's involved with, right, whether you're in politics or not. You know that tends to get overlooked and that's what you're talking about. Can you give us an example, catherine, of just to make this a little more concrete for people that may be going now, what are you talking about? Like just one principle, maybe from the Bible that you know, you're, you're, you're applying with your own life, children, etc. That carries on through all the way up to the halls of power, wherever they may be?
Katherine Gallagher:Well, when we look at, you know what some of the key issues in our community would definitely be one that I would look at. You know where some of your passions fall, and actually he does. He talks about this in Winning the Battle, where it can feel very overwhelming, I know, in the culture, because there's so many issues and there's so many problems, and who is a little old me to do something about them? And where do I start? And so one of the ways I know is looking at where we're, where we are passionate and what we have a passion for, and for me I've got numerous, but as you know from the prior podcast, you know just some passion around a healthy sexuality and also relative to children, so, and kids and teens. So for me that has meant, you know, on a local level, I got involved with a local group that was doing peer-based sex education in schools and I spoke for them and then now I'm on their board and they've shifted actually to a mental health focus. But again, it's great because that's that's where a lot of things are going in the culture right now, dealing with all the mental health issues which connect back to issues with sexuality and issues with worldview, and I mean it's all connected right. So I would say, on a local level, I've looked at, okay, where can I serve in my local community with something that I am passionate about? So I have, you know, I've taught in my kids' youth group and I'm on the board for this organization. There's some issues locally we have here with juvenile justice and there's little things. That doesn't necessarily have to be a huge amount of your time, but I will say you do.
Katherine Gallagher:I think one of the issues we have sometimes is folks are not prepared. We want to like misuse that scripture where it's just, you know, the Lord will just tell me what to say when I'm in it. And yes, we need, we need the Holy Spirit and we need that. But we also need to be trained and equipped when we go in so we can actually be prepared. So the areas that I'm serving are areas that I've taken time also to study and then I know I'm passionate about and I have a biblical understanding of.
Katherine Gallagher:So when I go and I'm talking about, you know, sexuality issues, I actually have some idea what I'm talking about because I've dove into it, you know, in the word and in other areas. So I think, being equipped, adequately equipped, that way to make sure whatever area God is calling us to, and then just looking, you know, in your local community. So, like I said, I teach in a Sunday school, going before the school board. It's amazing how many believers, even one school board meeting can make a difference. So, and going prepared, you know, for how do we? You know we're passionate about this, we love our kids. How do we address this issue with the world?
Dennis Peacocke:Let me pick it up just for a second Again, this concept of co managing with Christ, that that is a huge centering point for life. And again, because I got into Bible teaching and you know church managing, church networks, and then on the side, be teaching on economic stuff and business, point being, everybody is born into a ministry. If you're, if you're the question, ask of me, should I go into the ministry? And I would say, if you're not in the ministry now, you don't know what the ministry is. Everybody has a garden to tend and we taught that idea to as many people as we could is. You are given a responsibility. Who is in your garden? Start with you, go to your parents, go to your children, go to the people you work with the concept of managing with the tools that God has given us, beginning with number one, the word. How do I take the word of God and make it real? How does the word become a meshed in flesh? What does, what does the Bible look like worked out in your garden? The people that you have responsibility for or influence?
Dennis Peacocke:The whole world would change in Christianity If Christianity just recognized all of us have been given an assignment and a set of people and relationships to care for, and that would change everything. And we started off with that. You know, we had a lot, of, a lot of hippies. You know where, when I came to Christ, it was easy to find people in ministry to. It was people I'd lived with and hung out with in Berkeley and you know, you guys think that Christianity is for idiots. Let's talk about what real Christianity looks like and, you know, get into the depth of stuff we're doing now. And that is what we gave to people and it revolutionized their lives.
Scott Allen:Yeah, dennis, I completely relate to what you're saying. I think for a lot of Christians, you know, the idea of ministry or mission is has to do with evangelism. It has to do with planting new churches, and anything beyond those kind of very narrow ideas, as important as they are, isn't counted as ministry. It's just secular stuff that I have to do to earn money or whatever it is.
Scott Allen:So they don't think strategically, biblically about that, although they're doing it. They're doing business, they're doing economics, they're living sexually, as sexual life. Catherine, to touch on your issue, they just, if they're not thinking biblically, they're just operating according to whatever the systems are in the culture around them. You know, and, and. So when you talk this way, it is kind of revolutionary for people. Oh, you mean, what I do, this is a calling to shape the garden and I just want to go back to. I think you know, I think that's a very important thing, and I just want to go back to. I love this idea of co. What did you say, co?
Scott Allen:co managing the created order, co managing with Christ right, and it brings to my mind this image of the yoke right. You know, come to me all. You are weary and laden and take my yoke.
Scott Allen:Now we think about that in terms of, just, you know, my life is hard and I need Jesus's help, and I think that's an important application of that passage. But I think this is a little bit of a different idea and I think it's very powerful because, I know, for me as a Christian anyways, I tended earlier on, I tended to kind of swing back and forth between this idea that ministry, either was Jesus doing everything and I was kind of passive, you know, and I just prayed, or Jesus is kind of up in heaven waiting for me to do it all right, you know kind of. And this, this is a different idea that we're working together really, and he's in the lead, he's the, he's pulling, you know, in the lead, but but I'm with him in that.
Dennis Peacocke:Well, one of the things that really affected I was an athlete I did was a de-catholic athlete right after the Olympics. It was a all-American in. You know football and track and that kind of stuff, and I love training because I understood the value of training. And when I became a pastor and began to do individual sharing with people, I couldn't understand why we could agree on what scriptures they were going to be working on to apply to their life and they'd come back next week and it was like all that washed into nowhere and I I did not understand.
Dennis Peacocke:Most people have no idea what it means to train. I mean to to live a life where you're not improving, don't set goals for what you want to achieve with the gifts that God has given you. I was absolutely shocked that everybody didn't know how to train and what training would do. And they have coaches you know go disciple with. Most people have no idea what it means go disciple because they've never had a coach or never became a coach. How many Christians are there whose whose calling is to coach people in life in some area or another? And as to the strategy issue, of course you know God awakened me by his grace and in a lot of the stuff.
Dennis Peacocke:I was, fairly you know, on the trip of being a well-known preacher and doing major, not just in churches major, major meetings, thousands of people involved. And in July of 1987 I just come back from doing one of those big meetings and I was in the you know backyard and asking Lord, do you want to say to me about all that? And he said yes, dennis, I want you to begin to relate to me as an investment banker. Now I knew what an investment banker, how they think. He said you present things for me in prayer that you have and put any preparation into. I want you to become a be strategic, because, as your father, I am the king of strategies, I am the king of training, I am the king of postponed indulgence in the sake of being something.
Dennis Peacocke:Later and we actually changed the name of our ministry organization from from what it was to strategic Christian services. But I mean most people when I tell that little story and I got a lot of them of Lord telling me to relate to him as an investment banker. You know they turn around and rebuke Satan. What do you mean? I'm just saying this. By the grace of God, once you get on to wait. The way God matures us, the whole game changes. It really becomes every day the adventure of growth and the adventure of of planning before God, giving your plans to him and watching the Holy Spirit grow you in to your prayer life.
Darrow Miller:I have a question related to this, dennis. We've been talking for the last few minutes about the micro, the individual, the family, yeah, but you keep coming back to this word strategic and your go strategic, use, apply that word between the church and the institutions of society. Now you've related it right now. As an investment banker, god said he wants you to talk to him within that context and as you read the Bible as a young Christian, you saw a whole lot of stuff about strategy there and you saw a whole lot of stuff about economics. Connect the church corporately with the institutions in society with this word strategic for us great, great comment, great question.
Dennis Peacocke:Most, the overwhelming number of people in the church really have no idea of living a strategic life. I wish those words would echo and bounce off the walls for whoever is listening to what we're talking about where how many Christians have ever heard a sermon on living life strategically, which an idea that should be the foundation of all Christians, because our heavenly father is unbelievably strategic. He has planned eons in the future as to what he wants to see and how he is going to get his people and his church into becoming what he wants to see, thousands of years in advance. You know, when you just that one idea alone, that Christ was already planning what he would do before he got here, before he was incarnated, and what he had 30 years to achieve. I was praying the other day around this idea of the crisis, on a moment that Jesus must have had when he realized he only had three years. I mean he, he knew in general where he was going because he read it in the Bible, he followed the scripture and trying to make sure that he, he walked out, what the scripture said, said he would do, said he would think, etc. Etc. I'm I'm back to this idea as absolutely, non-negotiably important.
Dennis Peacocke:We're not going to be competitive with the world and its organizations until we become a strategic people who and that is not going to happen until we have preachers and teachers and parents who understand God is the master of sequential thinking. God is the master of planning. He doesn't do thing. His nature is to do that and and salvation is about our nature being transformed into his. And if God is a strategic thinker and I got this one, and I'm back to Karl Marx, thank you, karl Marx.
Dennis Peacocke:You know you were, you were polluting the world was something that God wanted the world to get, which was a strategy that, if you lived it out, you could change the world. I'm bringing that in as an example. It was the beginning of, of the strategy of the left of thinking that way that it made it was so obvious to me that that is the way God thinks and that is the reason that they are more successful. And, and relative to your point, we're not going to affect the institutions of culture until we begin to live and think strategically, because we're competing with a world which is always strategic and and we bring nothing to the game, so to speak, until the Holy Spirit begins to open this reality to us now let me go back to my question, because you're you're answering that in relationship to individual Christians.
Darrow Miller:Yes, and of course the individual Christians make up a body of Christ, right. But if somebody listening to this right now said okay, I've got a sense of what he's talking about. For me as an individual, what does this mean for my church?
Dennis Peacocke:well, it begins with my family. I knew, by God's grace, I knew that was the starting point and that's the value of the fact the family is Christ's primary leverage point, even in front of the church, in terms of where we practice the training of people. To more specific to your question, once I understand the name of the game is is discover what God has given you. Ask the Holy Spirit to begin to, to sow energy, life, experience, etc. Into that in the building your family.
Dennis Peacocke:Then look at your job. Does your job represented the Ephesians 2 10 reality of you've, connected with what God created you to be and do? Because that's one of our first responsibilities is to connect with what gifts did God give us and how did he want us and who did he want us to play that life out with and it once I'm in that mode of thinking, then, wherever I work and wherever I engage a set of people, I'm bringing a strategic view of reality and it will begin to affect everybody in that group. And that is what, honestly, what I see right now, 55 years into the game, I'm finally beginning to see larger and larger numbers of Christians that are beginning to think like God thinks, and it's very exciting.
Katherine Gallagher:It's very exciting and then to build on to that, I think, going to your question, darrell then what does that look like from there, going beyond the family and looking at the church and public policy? This naturally big ways into issues around jurisdictions, which I know you love and speak about in your books also. Because then if we're looking at the, the church, the broad church and the ecclesia, then how, what is it responsible for in its realm of jurisdiction? Right in the jurisdiction he's talked about, you know self, family and we've got marketplace, church and public policy. So, for example, when we look at a lot of the social issues that we have right now that you know, from a Marxist, socialist point of view, they want the government to solve, those are actually, as we know, often a breakdown of the family and other jurisdictions.
Katherine Gallagher:But the first stop as you know, I'm preaching to the choir but for sake of our listeners to the church is the one that is supposed to be handling a lot of those issues. If there is a breakdown in the family, the church is supposed to be the next stop, not public, not the government. So when we look at, what does this mean for my church, for things this way, strategically, we're trained, I'm in my church, it goes okay. What is my church called to do beyond equipping and discipling? We are supposed to be hands and feet, so the church and I think this is to the point you're maybe trying to get at here of that means then, when we're thinking this way, the church should be the ones with and I know a lot of them are, you know, praying to the counseling centers, but homeless social justice from a biblical point of view. Thank you, scott Allen.
Katherine Gallagher:We need to be doing them out of the church, and then we wouldn't have half the issues we're having, because the government is in a point of tyranny that we've let them have because the church hasn't had its proper role in filling those needs well in the government.
Darrow Miller:You served the role of the church and it's you served the role of the father in a family.
Dwight Vogt:I still think it boils down to, though, to to the church, not casting a vision that's as big as yours, dennis, you know it's still the vision, for strategic living is moral living. It might be moral living for my family, but it doesn't reach the social dimension of society yes and public institutions. It just we just don't go there. Yeah, it's like that's, that's, that's foreign territory, or it's, it's, it's wrong territory, almost. So how do you get the church?
Scott Allen:to speak at that level, and not only do I that you've got. You've got this culture pushing back hard against that right now. You know, calling us Christian nationalists, as we dared even think strategically about bringing the Bible to bear on the social institutions that go beyond the church, right? No, you know, that's that's I. Just last week, james Carville said that if Christians dare to do that, they're more dangerous than al-Qaeda. Right, I mean, that's the context that we're in right now.
Dennis Peacocke:So yeah, I'd like to believe that's true.
Dennis Peacocke:I'd like to believe we are more dangerous but I want to bring up the voice of optimism. You know, and I you know, you and you guys, we all believe the same stuff. I'm quite sure that we've used your material probably as much, if not more, than you've ours. It's all based on building blocks sequentially, until you understand that God wants to replicate the life of his son in you, until that idea begins to corner you. Because when you're cornered by God in that way and you begin to say, how do I implement a replication of who God is in me? How, Holy Spirit, do you want to do that? How are you going to change me? What does we're back to the question.
Dennis Peacocke:What does it mean to be saved? Most Christians you know on a very simple level and it's all true the blood, the cross. I'm very conservative theologically here we've gone past that. Then what? Where does the training? When do we begin to train? When do I pray into God? What do you want to do in me and through me and recognize that that is eternity speaking? God didn't just save us as an individual. He saved us as nations, he saved us as generations. He thinks on a very large scale and he has purposes that he puts in those generations and in those nations that he, that he, will be bringing out in eternity, but he wants to start now. The King, he showed up preaching the kingdom, you know, 2000 years ago. I'm then safe to say. The kingdom foundations are here. The question what are we doing with them?
Luke Allen:Just to clarify for the fact checkers listening and we don't want to get this podcast canceled. We're not talking about, you know, being more dangerous in Al-Qaeda in a violent sense.
Scott Allen:We're saying being more strategic, yeah.
Luke Allen:I'm just clarifying being more strategic, having the courage of our convictions. You know, dennis, I loved your point right there of well, you were alluding to what we should do, but you said the first thing we should do is pray God. How do you want to use me? How is my life going to be strategic for your kingdom? That's a great starting point. What's the next step after that? I mean listening to the answer, but what can we do while we're waiting for the answer?
Dennis Peacocke:maybe who's going to help train me? Yeah, who's going to help train me? And, to some degree, who am I supposed to begin training? Because, by faith, you got to step out into that. Not just where are you going to go, who are you, who's going to train you? Where are the people? And now you're going, you want God to answer prayer. Start praying the right prayers. That's a huge issue, praying the right prayers. I was 10 years into this when that began to really hit me as Lord. I'm just beginning to know what the prayers are that you want to answer. But again, it's a whole idea of a vision of a progressing life, a life that is maturing, a life that is becoming more and more capable to represent Christ to people in the real now world.
Katherine Gallagher:And I think, an important distinction here, because sometimes when we talk about this, we'll start thinking are you talking about works Like, why do I have to look at you know? Why do I have to get equipped more? Why do I have to do this or that? Or even some of these questions? I've in the past experienced pushback thinking. We're talking works. It's not works for salvation, it's growth in our relationship with the Lord, because he wants us to mature in Him and be able to work through us, because he's a personal God.
Scott Allen:Dennis, can I and Catherine both. I would like to ask you to respond to objections that I hear regularly for people that think the way we do, you know, from other Christians. You know. I alluded to one earlier, you know, in relationship to the kingdom of God, and this Christian was saying that we are citizens of heaven and the implication was we shouldn't be involved, you know. You know we shouldn't care too much about what's happening down here on earth, so to speak, or another way of saying that is, the kingdom of God is really only relevant for when Jesus comes back and establishes His kingdom. Until then, it's not a relevant topic. You know what are you? I have a number of these kinds of questions. These are things I hear regularly. What's your response to that? Or maybe, to go along with that, this idea that you are a triumphalist, you think somehow we can bring the kingdom of God in its perfect reality, you know, before Jesus comes back. Is that what you're talking about, dennis?
Dennis Peacocke:Yeah, juvenile immature thinking. And yeah, I'll behave myself here. There's many things I can say I'll behave myself here.
Dennis Peacocke:The kingdom of God was, is and is yet to come.
Dennis Peacocke:Theology matters. The kingdom was, is and is yet to come. It is God, thinks gradually, he does events, but his primary motive, his primary ID is he builds things again piece by piece, here a little, there a little, etc. Etc. I'm amused, theologically, at a statement that would say why are you doing that? I'm, I'm, I'm a citizen of heaven. Well, beg your pardon, you are a citizen of the kingdom of God. Is what the Bible said, not just heaven. Citizen is a political word, A citizen is a political concept. Paul was very well educated and quite knew exactly what he was saying when he used the word citizen.
Dennis Peacocke:And again, seek first the kingdom of God. Am I seeking for something that doesn't exist or is not going to show up until he returns? I don't think so. Why? Why did you command me to pray? Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven? You have selected Holy Spirit specifics around the kingdom of God as being the number one priority.
Dennis Peacocke:Seek first the kingdom. Theologically. The church isn't seeking first the kingdom, it's seeking first attributes of the kingdom, but it is not even aware there is a kingdom because it's theologically pushed it off into eternity so as to make it irrelevant here, and Satan was very clever when he did that. And that is where we've got to start with. Why are we not centering in the kingdom? And if we are centering in the kingdom, does God want us setting? Setting in something that is not possible for us to connect with now? And if that is your and I'm not, I'm playing games here. If that is your theology, my friend, you need help. And I'm not saying that to you. I'm saying the nature of the kingdom was, is and is yet to be is essential for those who would teach the Word of God, because to limit eternity, the ability to bring transformation off into eternity, is to walk away from great sections of the Bible.
Scott Allen:I just yeah, I want to underscore what you're saying for our listeners too, because I think it's such an important point and I think most Christians understand it and accept it. At the personal level of salvation, I was saved justification right. Christ died and he paid the penalty for my sins and now, because of that, I'm clothed in his righteousness and my sins no longer count against me Judicially. Praise God for that, that's I was saved. I am being saved as the sanctification work of the Holy Spirit. I'm becoming more like Christ and I will be saved. You know that is, I will be perfected in that when I'm in heaven with Jesus. That's the glorification idea. I don't think that's too controversial for most Christians, that is. That is the same kind of progressive thing that you're talking about, dennis. It's just at that level. We're talking about it at the kingdom level, right here. Yes, aren't we? Yes?
Darrow Miller:You know, you can imagine, that becomes very controversial right.
Scott Allen:That's for a sub reason that becomes very controversial.
Dennis Peacocke:You can imagine what it did to me the first time I went through the scripture and ended the book with the nations existing in eternity needing healing and needing transformation in eternity. Wow, what do?
Scott Allen:you explain this.
Dennis Peacocke:Revelation 22,. One and two. The nations, which are organizations, go on into eternity because they're. They are Christ's inheritance, psalm two he inherited the nations, by the way. That's part of what we're. Why am I involved in reaching nations? Because they're Christ's inheritance and I don't have to die before I can be. Trying to inject biblical truth into the nations is as critical now as it will be in eternity. But the point of that is nations, organizations, were not just flying off into heaven, as several billion people were flying off into eternity in connectivity, in the connection of organizations even to the size of nations. And the fact that they need to be healed, as it were, by the fruit from the tree of life is telling me that organizations are going to be maturing in eternity. Of course they're going to be maturing in eternity because as we mature we will be involved in the maturation of those nations. That was that answered a ton of questions when I saw that and I hope I'm making sense to those that are not sure yeah, I think you're.
Scott Allen:you're above my, my level of thinking, dennis, here. Go ahead, Dwight yeah.
Dwight Vogt:No, I don't have an answer to that. I'm what I hear you saying, dennis. Though is again we're comfortable with Kingdom at the personal level? I think many people are. Yes, we're comfortable at Kingdom, even at the family level. You know me and my house. We will serve the Lord. We're comfortable at that level. I'm going to make sure my kids grow up, you know, in a good way. We're comfortable at the church level. You know this church is going to function as a kingdom church. Yes, but when we move one step out of that, we don't know what to do. Yes, well, we're stuck. We don't have a vision for it Are we don't know what to do.
Dennis Peacocke:Well, why do we? What's my starting point? The Old Testament. That's the first thing I saw. The Old Testament was where he laid out the foundation of civil society. And studying you know, I studied the Old Testament a lot because it's filled with the structural, structural orders for society. And people say, well, why didn't Jesus talk about it in the Old Testament? Because it's his book and he put a lot of time into the Old Testament. That is where he gave us civil engineering and I don't know what else to say. I know something about public policy, I actually do. The Old Testament is loaded with one scripture after another about the way civil society used to be organized. And as KJ said Catherine said, kj is her abbreviation how, how does God want to build society?
Dennis Peacocke:The answer is in these shall all the families of the earth be blessed, society. We go all the way back to Abraham and the Abrahamic foundation of square one. It's through building the family unit that society will begin to achieve God's will for Society. It begins right there. And again, you guys all teach jurisdictions.
Dennis Peacocke:I know we think the same way, in that we are not going to be able to change Current civic reality until we begin reasoning from the individual, which Jefferson understood very clearly, the thinkers of the revolution that society begins with self government as a foundation. Then we move to the family and what the family, and so that. Then we move to the ecclesia, then we move to managing finance, which would be a great discussion, if and then, lastly, lastly, we move, lastly, to what the world moves to, first, civil structure. Biblically, it's the last stage after we've Governmentally analyzed responsibility and duties from the individual to the family, to the church, to the economics and Lastly to the civil. Now I know I'm preaching to the choir, but that's a revolution that we've got to get out into culture.
Darrow Miller:Let me. You said something a few minutes ago, dennis it. Oh, I've read that passage a bunch, but I'd never saw what you saw. And Abraham is to bless the nations yes. The church is to disciple nations yes. And in Revelation 22, the fruit is for the healing of nations yes, in eternity, in eternity, and I've read that passage I don't know how many times, but you saw something that I had not seen. Yes, in eternity.
Dennis Peacocke:Yeah well, you've seen a lot of things I haven't seen.
Dwight Vogt:I'm sure no, but it's just exciting for me to To bring that thread all the way through from Abraham to the church, to eternity but, I would argue in in Isaiah was it 53 or 43 that it could be even for the present that the fruit of the Of the church is for the healing of the yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Scott Allen:No, I agree with that for sure, but I just want to probe a little bit on an objection that I hear again, dennis, especially as you get to that level, that jurisdiction or that sphere of authority at the civil level, the political and the civil level, because this is where there's a lot of pushback right. And one of the things that struck me in your book, dennis, is that you have a bibliography that references books that I think were influential for you, and you mentioned in that bibliography Rush Duny, and he's yeah he's, he's really a lightning rod, you know, and I Don't, I've not read him.
Scott Allen:I should, but I haven't. And so people always tell me, you know, and they hear my teaching, oh, you're a disciple of Rush Duny, you know, and I'm like, well, I haven't read him, you know, I'm just trying to be biblical, but, but, but. But when then they go on and they say in the, you know, at the application, at the civil level, you're trying to impose kind of biblical moral law and society, you're, you're, you're setting up theocracy. That's what Rush Duny was advocating and what. What's your response to that? I hear that a lot.
Dennis Peacocke:It depends on who it is. How much of a Smart alec or what level of thinking am I engaging with here? Oh, so you want to impose and I got lots of examples of your wanting to impose you want to impose the insanity of the way you think, the immorality, the destruction of human beings, the destruction of families. Take a good long, look at what you guys have pasted in and driven it down our throats. Now you've taken over the schools, and Do we want, do we seriously want, to have a discussion about what you've done to the school systems and what you've done to the families because of that? So I I mean, depends on who I'm talking to, but if I Believe in choice, I got it underlined that 50 times when somebody asked me why are you doing, what are you doing in terms of civil public policy? Because I'm in the principal based public policy.
Dennis Peacocke:I don't want people in the Republicans, I don't want people in the Democrats, I want them in principal based public policy. That's, that is our starting point, and it is replacing a lot of that public policy that is current. There is evil. Look at what it's doing to people and that's one of the reasons I'm excited today. This thing is finally coming to, to some kind of a catharsis yes, coming to a head, because it is destroyed.
Dennis Peacocke:It is destroyed so much. The question is how many Christians like you and others that we're finding all over the world, how many Christians will we have to begin to rebuild? Not in demand, but in choice. We want, so you're not in demand.
Scott Allen:This isn't about forcing or compelling. This is so. You, when you talk about choice, you're talking about upholding the biblical principle of freedom.
Darrow Miller:Yes and this is something I'm giving an alternative.
Scott Allen:Yes, tyranny, yes, this is something that I think needs to be so underscored is that, you know, we are often accused of being tyrannical, like trying to impose our will on others, and yet it's these other world views that have no basis for freedom or choice, as you say.
Luke Allen:Dennis.
Scott Allen:They are actually imposing right. It's. It's all you know. This is what's. You mentioned your involvement in the free speech movement early on. We're all about compelling people's speech. Now there is no free speech censorship. You know, we're entering into times of tyranny right now. What happened to freedom? We're not the ones that are, we're the ones advocating for freedom, right?
Katherine Gallagher:All law is, by nature, religious. There's a myth that somehow we're the only religious ones. They have a religion too. I mean, everything is underscored by a level of what's the whole point of law, determining right and wrong and how people should function. That's a religious function, quote-unquote. That's right and so it's just. It's coming from a different worldview, as we know, and so it's a false accusation of us trying to push Something religious on something that's not religious. It is, by its very nature, religious and the tone that it sets, it's just some religion is going to be behind every aspect of public policy.
Scott Allen:It's either going to be true God's truth or it's going to be some false religion and there's going to be all sorts of negative consequences of that. But this idea that if we're not out there advocating, somebody's going to be not, that's one of your chapters in the book, dennis, isn't it? Somebody is going to be setting the agenda yeah legislating. Somebody's going to be legislating, right exactly.
Dennis Peacocke:Looking, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, I am looking forward to the, the Conflict between us and people who want to talk about Christian nationalism and the rest of that. I am greatly looking forward to that because it will clarify the issues and the nonsense and the ignorant accusation. You know that that is going it. On one level it's legitimate, you know I, I, when I get into that discussion, I begin by saying God himself would oppose us if we were trying to produce the tyranny that you're saying we're trying to produce. God himself would oppose that, amen.
Scott Allen:That's right. No, we're free, we believe in freedom, and that's why we're out there. Dwight, yeah, go ahead, yeah.
Dwight Vogt:No, that's why we're where we are where we're at.
Luke Allen:Yeah yeah, I saw this last week an article they were. I just saw the, the title of it and it was I don't know what state it was in, but School board member, when they were getting sworn on to the school board instead of putting their hand on the Bible and swearing themselves, and they put their hand on some pornographic pile of books and decide this, where themselves in on that, and that's just a good example of how you know, all we're all. We all have a religion, we all have a God that we're serving and you know that's that's the new pile of books that people are choosing to be sworn in on today.
Dennis Peacocke:Yep, just an example. All laws religious. The question is, which religion?
Scott Allen:That's right, yeah, I.
Darrow Miller:Want to pivot for a moment, and maybe, yeah, for a moment, to something that I'm I'm struggling with or wrestling with. You know we live in this time of safe spaces. The universities used to be a place where you could gather with your ideas and people were pursuing truth and you could bring your arguments to the table. And those, those days are gone and people want safe spaces and they don't want to be offended by what you say and You've said very clearly, dennis, you're not afraid to make strong statements. You're not, you're not afraid of hurting people's feelings and you rattle people's minds. All of those don't have a place in the world today. And when you say these things, what are, what are the boundaries? What do you mean by this?
Scott Allen:And Darrow, when you say they don't have a place in the world, it seems like they don't have a place in evangelical Christendom, right, because we're always kind of encouraged to not be rabble-rousers and we're, you know, nice, right, we're supposed to be nice.
Darrow Miller:But there's no place in the universities.
Scott Allen:Yes, okay.
Darrow Miller:So what does it mean when you say you're not afraid to make strong statements, you're not afraid to rattle people's minds?
Dennis Peacocke:I Love God by the grace of God, and I love people and I cannot abide and cannot stand seeing people destroyed by lies and by hypocrisy and by physical violence. I can't let that go unaddressed. I can't Love, can't let that happen without a protest. And when anybody says that to me, yeah, I'm in your face. Why am I in your face? Because what you're saying and believing is killing people and I am deeply, deeply offended by what you're doing.
Dennis Peacocke:Don't talk to me about commitment. You're committed to the destruction of people and the institutions. You want to talk about history and the hundreds of millions of people that your ideas have brought into death. You don't want to have that discussion with me. I can go down the litmus line of it. That's me. That's the real me. Love has got a passion and my experience with people if they can see, you know You're not a rabble rouser. You care deeply because people are being damaged. I mean when I I Don't even have words to describe what I feel about what's going on in school systems and the legislation Against parents, having the knowledge of what you guys are doing to the kids. Don't ask me to be nice when I'm aware of something like that. Wow.
Darrow Miller:Yeah thank you.
Scott Allen:That. I love that, dennis. That's so, you know. I think that's so right. You know, it's motivated by a heart of love that just won't allow me to just be passive and See something and not take some action in it and not to speak forcefully against that. I think that's well. We do need to wrap up, guys.
Scott Allen:This has been such a great discussion.
Scott Allen:But, dennis, you talked about things coming to a head.
Scott Allen:I sense that too, that that we're coming into a time, maybe in the next year. I know that in the United States that you got, I see, I mean at just one level, you, you hear it in the news when you have people talking about this next election and if we elect Donald Trump, for example, it's everything's gonna. You know, we're gonna, everything's gonna collapse, you know, and we've built this up to be such a Cataclysmic kind of event that I don't know how it's going to, how it's going to play out, and that's just one aspect of it. But it seems to me that these things are coming to a head. Yeah, what are your thoughts? I know that, you know, none of us have a crystal ball, but I, you know, what are your thoughts about how the next few years are gonna play out here, and you seem to optimistic about it too, and I guess that optimism is just rooted in the fact that they kind of need to come to a head for the church to wake up, maybe anyways.
Dennis Peacocke:Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, it is Economics being the foundation of how people eat, which they still enjoy eating and provision. The economic side of it is going to be really tough. Being very Direct to with you guys, you know what you do is more valuable now than it's ever been. As you, I think you know we're we're Circling the globe right now trying to find men and women that here and see what we here and see, and I'm grateful because there is a growing momentum of Leaders in positions of authority, all the way up to the top. What we've learned and I'm sure you guys have had the same experience If you don't do photo ops and talk about who you met, where met with For your organization, you can talk to anybody, but you just have to be able to trust them and obey them.
Dennis Peacocke:When they say please don't mention that we've had a meeting, nicodemus is showing up by night, I'll just put it that way and seeing that is very encouraging. Yeah, I don't know, it's going to be probably 24 months. Those of us that are really been involved in the economic side of it, I mean we're almost up to a trillion dollars servicing interest debt. It's amazing that they're right now wrestling with can we have war in two places right now. We're finally admitting hey, maybe we shouldn't pay for it when it's costing a trillion dollars for service on the debt. It's going to come together. It's going to come together. I pray that it's not as violent as it could be. I mean, it's a real thing to worry about. I'd love to have an offline discussion with you guys. If we could do that, that would be helpful.
Luke Allen:I know you guys or Catherine, I know you were there I'm not sure if you were both there at the art conference what was that a month ago now? And casting a better vision for the future. I was really curious. I watched a lot of clips coming out of that. I know there was a lot of strategy going on there. Did you guys have any aha moments or big takeaways from that? As it relates to your work?
Katherine Gallagher:Yeah, I was at the ARC event representing our organization. I would say it was very encouraging that they were trying to cast a better vision for the future, that some things maybe aren't as bad as they're being portrayed or are slanted, and how they're being. You know you can. What is that famous quote? There's lies, damn lies and statistics. Is that? Mark Twain, I think, said that Things can be tweaked. There's a lot of rough stuff going on, but there's also some hopeful things going on that just aren't being pushed and talked about in the media, relative to clean energy, sustainability, even just the pushback on education being taken over by government and different things. I would say, yes, there was some very inspirational, motivational content that was pushed.
Katherine Gallagher:It was not an explicitly Christian gathering, so there's a little bit of mixed bag in there. I'd say there was a small scent of utopianism maybe thrown in, but generally a lot of things that we as Christians there was tons of Christians there and tons that many of us would agree upon and agree with but honestly, probably the best part of that meeting was the networking that happened offline. The presentations were amazing and wonderful, but it was an invitation only event, so there was a level of, I would say camaraderie and openness, because everyone knew if you were there there was some level of vetting that had happened so you could dive in to some things. There was just some really incredible people there, a lot of the some of the major organizations that you guys would know in the States were there, a lot of political people.
Katherine Gallagher:I would say for me, I was very encouraged because of so many of the offline conversations of people who are seeing what we're talking about and who do understand that in the long run, sustainable prosperity is really only works if it's biblically based, because that's where the truth lies. So it was very encouraging in that sense, with the different people and I would also just say seeds coming back that had been sown 20, 30 years ago. I mean, I ran into people who'd read my father's book 25 years ago, who'd read Darrow's books Both of their names came up numerous times with people. It was neat to go, wow, you know and they're seeing that how relevant that content is for what we're dealing with right now. So I think the Lord is also awakening people and watering those seeds further. For hey, where are we getting the answers you know, for where we're going to move ahead?
Scott Allen:Just ARC guys, just for our listeners that aren't familiar with that, explain what that is, catherine. What is?
Katherine Gallagher:Yes, ARC stands for the Alliance of Responsible Citizenship. This was their inaugural event. One of the most well-known names attached to it is Dr Jordan Peterson.
Scott Allen:He's really behind it in many ways, wasn't he? I mean, he was kind of a key driver.
Katherine Gallagher:One of the key ones, him, and a Baroness, philippa Stroud, who is a wonderful Christian woman. She and her husband passed her a church in London and they are wonderful people that, yeah, get new relationship with them but really appreciate who they are, and so there were several believers behind some of the key gathering. You know, dr Jordan is still, I believe, on a bit of a faith journey, but he's super close. He's a very, very I say a brief interaction with him. I was very impressed at his integrity as just a person and being very personable and genuine and he's exactly with you, one-on-one, like he would be in a big crowd and I just really appreciate his spirit. So, in his heart and the others behind it is trying to have a more positive message and what are the healthy values that actually back up sustainable change? That is going to counter the narrative of what we're getting from Davos and some of the really liberal agendas on the other side that we know are not producing good fruit.
Scott Allen:I think this ties into this discussion of things coming to a head. You know that we were just having Dennis, because the evil is being exposed to such a degree now in our series and in these movements that you have people like Jordan Peterson or Ayon Herciali or many that are going. They're seeing that and they're going. This is horrible. We have to stand against it and in the process, these aren't necessarily Christians.
Scott Allen:They tend to be highly educated liberal people, but they are going oh my gosh. You know the answers are found in the Bible and they're kind of rediscovering the Bible and rediscovering the roots of Western civilization that are rooted in Scripture. You know the dignity of human beings and freedom that we were talking about in other things.
Scott Allen:Now they're speaking out about it and organizing and you know I find it incredibly refreshing to listen to them talk about the Bible because they come at it with this outsider's very fresh perspective and it's not disconnected from culture and society in the way that it is in the church right, when we can't talk about these things, as Dwight was saying, we're very uncomfortable. These guys aren't like. They get it like. This is the power of the Bible is that it's shaping a society in a way that's healthy and goes against what we're seeing in all this destruction around the West.
Dennis Peacocke:Yeah, I believe strongly that we've now entered the beginning of Matthew 13, verses 47 to 50, when he talks about the great net that is thrown out to the nations, which brings together the saved and the unsaved around the kingdom of God. Love to teach on that, you guys please take Matthew 13, verses 47 to 50, the great net that is thrown out into the nations to pull together into a unity, the kingdom. And that's yeah it's. That's what I believe is happening.
Dennis Peacocke:It's exciting and like I say, people are showing up if you keep your mouth shut.
Scott Allen:Well, yeah, and you know it's fun to see other Christians like you, catherine, joining in with that, our friend Vishal Mongolwadi, oz Guinness. You know they're, they're coming alongside these folks and in a really great way and you know, not going oh, you're not Christians, you can't have anything to do with you but just kind of walking alongside. And I'm so excited to see what's going to come out of out of this move and I'm really glad you guys were able to be there and be part of that.
Katherine Gallagher:So yeah, the other quick side note I'll make there too.
Katherine Gallagher:That was significant at the event was how many Catholic brothers and sisters were there, and you know, there's been such a split with the Protestant and Catholic world, and that was one of the areas too that I was like guys, it was wonderful to see, because we have a lot more in common. I mean, obviously we know there's some big differences, but there's there's a lot more in common than not, and why are we not working together more Protestants and Catholics? And there was a lot of that also at the at the ARC event, which was wonderful.
Scott Allen:Okay, you're going to get us in trouble with some of our listeners. Now, boy, I tell you that.
Katherine Gallagher:You can edit it out, right? No, I agree with you.
Scott Allen:Catherine. But there's, there's also kind of a revival I've noticed in, you know, some very conservative circles of evangelicalism. That is, you know, boy, you know Catholics need to be saved. They're not saved there, you know, I've heard that a lot too, and you know, of course, right, right, I'm not speaking for all Catholics as a massive group. A lot of them do need to be saved, you know. But but to write off the entire Catholic church, yeah, I'm with you on this.
Dennis Peacocke:You know what I like about the issue of saved Jesus is the only one that gets to judge.
Scott Allen:Amen, no, it's right, that's right. Yeah, we and we. We don't like that, we do we, dennis, that's right.
Dennis Peacocke:I actually do like it yeah. I like it that he's the only one that gets to choose. Amen. Amen.
Scott Allen:Well, what? A joy to be with you guys. Luke, go ahead. I know you're, I don't want to cut you off.
Luke Allen:You had something you wanted to say no, no, no, I'll save it for later. Okay.
Scott Allen:Yeah, this has been so good to to have this conversation, dennis, and I love your heart, catherine. You, too, you've just been such an encouragement to us and I just want to underscore the book for our listeners winning the battle of the minds and Dennis has written other books as well, and I believe you're author of at least four books, dennis, and so would encourage our listeners to go and avail yourself of this, this wisdom, but this one in particular is a terrific book that really does you along with the kind of the core messages of the disciple nations alliance. Dennis and Catherine, go Strategic, your Ministry. How Can People Best Connect With you? What's the best way that they can go and get information about what you're doing and learn from you? Yeah, our website.
Katherine Gallagher:Yeah, our website is gostrategicorg, so that's G-O-strategicorg, and all of Dennis's books are there. They're also available in Kindle. So if you look up Dennis Peacock on Amazon, all of his books are on Kindle as well. And we've also got another great way to access some of our content is in the you version Bible app. We've got several Bible devotional plans in there, which actually one of which isn't is I will just plug on the level, because we keep talking about strategic thinking and how God is strategic. We have a Bible plan in there called strategic thinking. So and it's something that I actually I wrote based on his some of his audio teachings on strategic thinking. So that's in there, and some other devotional plans too. So if you look for go strategic or Dennis Peacock, you will find some of that content there.
Luke Allen:So great, great, yeah. And also two things I've learned from recently from you guys is one is the World View Handbook that you guys sent over to us. That was awesome, Great read. We'll make sure to throw that in the show notes as well. And then the go strategic podcast which you guys started this last year. Is that that's still going right?
Katherine Gallagher:It is. It's more of a for clarity. It's more of a platform for sharing teachings. We're not necessarily doing a lot of interviews like this, but we're sharing free content that are teachings there. Yes.
Luke Allen:And that is on.
Katherine Gallagher:Buzzsprout. If you go to Buzzsprout, if you search, go strategic, and then it's on all the different platforms on. You know, pandora, not Pandora, I'm thinking of Pandora and all the all the main iTunes, and I'm blanking on the other one right now, but yes, they're all there Apple podcast, spotify, spotify.
Luke Allen:Thank you.
Katherine Gallagher:Spotify.
Dennis Peacocke:We need to talk some more privately.
Scott Allen:I hear you, dennis, let's do that. We will do that and I'm sorry to our listeners but we will. Let's schedule a time to do that. That would be wonderful. And all of you listening today, thank you. Thank you for taking time to make us part of your life and, yeah, I just really pray that each one that's listening would catch a vision for the calling that God has for you to be a part of discipling your family and your nation and just avail yourself of the resources and the wisdom of Go strategic, dennis and Catherine. Thank you guys, so much for your ministry.
Katherine Gallagher:Thank you for having us and for yours. Yes, we love you. Get him.
Luke Allen:All right.
Scott Allen:God bless, bye.
Darrow Miller:Appreciate you guys, us you until we talk again. Yes.
Dennis Peacocke:All right, my advice is go get him.
Luke Allen:Thank you for listening to this episode with our friends Dennis Peacock and Catherine Gallagher from Go strategic. As always, the easiest way to learn more about each episode and find all of the books, courses, articles or any other resource that we mentioned during this discussion or any further information about our amazing guests, just make sure to head to the episode landing page on our website, which you'll see linked in the show notes below. If you'd like to learn more about our core training here at the Disciple Nations Alliance the Kingdomizer training program, you can also find that information on the episode landing page. Or you can head straight to the course at Corumdalecom. Again, that is Corumdalecom. The ideas have consequences podcast is brought to you by the Disciple Nations Alliance. To learn more about our ministry, you can find us on Instagram, facebook, twitter and YouTube, or on our website, which is DiscipleNationsorg. Thanks again for joining us and we hope you're able to tune in next time here on Ideas have Consequences.