Are we losing sight of truth in a culture smothered by falsehoods? Even within the church, according to Barna, 41% of American Christians believe that the only truth a person can know is whatever is right for them individually. In this episode we want to help arm you with an understanding of why truthfulness is not just a noble virtue but a critical armor in today's culture, especially for Christians navigating through the fog of misinformation. We tackle the potent blend of social media and deceptive narratives head-on, addressing the alarmingly popular theories of evolution, and the pressing need for Christians to be the lighthouses of truth as we sail into uncharted waters. Our discussion extends into the societal impact of weaponized propaganda, through the 1619 project, the BLM movement, the social contagion of the sex and gender ideologies, the Covid origins, and the current events in the Gaza strip. Join us as we explore ways to grasp the framework or lens through which we can discern the narratives shaping our public consciousness. The solution is not ignorance, self censorship, doublethink, or winsomeness. The solution is found in the very essence of truth as embodied in Jesus Christ, the Way, the Truth and the Life.
Are we losing sight of truth in a culture smothered by falsehoods? Even within the church, according to Barna, 41% of American Christians believe that the only truth a person can know is whatever is right for them individually. In this episode we want to help arm you with an understanding of why truthfulness is not just a noble virtue but a critical armor in today's culture, especially for Christians navigating through the fog of misinformation. We tackle the potent blend of social media and deceptive narratives head-on, addressing the alarmingly popular theories of evolution, and the pressing need for Christians to be the lighthouses of truth as we sail into uncharted waters. Our discussion extends into the societal impact of weaponized propaganda, through the 1619 project, the BLM movement, the social contagion of the sex and gender ideologies, the Covid origins, and the current events in the Gaza strip. Join us as we explore ways to grasp the framework or lens through which we can discern the narratives shaping our public consciousness. The solution is not ignorance, self censorship, doublethink, or winsomeness. The solution is found in the very essence of truth as embodied in Jesus Christ, the Way, the Truth and the Life.
We are the DNA. We talk about biblical worldview every week on this podcast, and when we think about biblical worldview, we're talking about the fundamental truths about God, about mankind and about nature. And when we build on that, when we have a profound understanding of those, those deep truths, that's when you can start going hmm, that doesn't sound right, but it gives you the grid to say something's not right there, and then you can start questioning.
Luke Allen:Hi friends, welcome to. Ideas have consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance To preface today's discussion. I just saw this headline that caught my attention coming out of the World Economic Forms current meetings in Davos, switzerland. In the article reads, quote the World Economic Forms Global Risk Report 2024 says the biggest global short term risk stems from misinformation and disinformation. I just wanted to share that with you guys before we get into today's discussion, as I thought it was an interesting assessment coming out of the WF.
Luke Allen:If you are new to this podcast. Here on this show we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world to all the nations, but our mission also includes being the hands and feet of God to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of permission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-born cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Scott Allen:Welcome again to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. My name is Scott Allen, I'm the president of the Disciple Nations Alliance and I'm here with my dear friends and team members, tim Williams from North Carolina. Hi, tim, how are you this morning?
Tim Williams:Hey, great to be here.
Scott Allen:So good to have you, Tim Sean Carson, from Phoenix. Hey Sean.
Shawn Carson:Good morning.
Scott Allen:And also in Phoenix, dwight, voet, dwight. What's happening? Good to be here, scott, thank you. It's always good to have you, dwight, and joining me up here in the great state of Oregon although we're not in the same room together is Luke? Hey, luke, how you doing this morning?
Luke Allen:Doing good. Pleasure to be here.
Scott Allen:It's so good to have these discussions. I so enjoy it, guys, and just so grateful for you guys. Today we're going to kind of do a bit of a New Year's I'm going to frame it as a New Year's resolution type of podcast as we kind of look towards the new year. You know, I think it's natural and good that we kind of make some commitments, things that we want to kind of improve on or things that are important. It's a good time to step back and kind of look at these things that are really important in light of what's going on around us. And today I want to talk about a virtue or a discipline or a practice that I think is just so essential for followers of Jesus Christ in the time that we're living in in this year 2024. And that is truthfulness, honesty, truth telling. I just think, now more than ever, that needs to be just a guiding principle, a guiding star for our lives.
Scott Allen:And part of the reason I say that is that we live in a time, I think, just increasing lies, lies, deception, false narratives, propaganda these things have been around from the very beginning. Obviously, satan is the father of lies and he didn't just show up on the scene yesterday. He's been around from the beginning. We see lies in the very first chapter of the first book of Genesis, in the Garden of Eden. So we're not talking about anything new here, but we are talking about, I think, a time that we live in where there's a velocity, an intensity to these lies and false narratives, particularly publicly in the culture. We're living at a time where it's easier to promulgate kind of false narratives and stories because of the interconnectedness of our world and the internet, social media it's, you know, these are some new tools right that can be used to kind of sway public opinion and things like that. And I have been just struck personally and dismayed in many respects by just the number of very bold kind of false narratives that are, you know, that have been created, let's say, by people in positions of influence or power and really pushed aggressively through all sorts of different means onto the public.
Scott Allen:And I've got several examples in my mind. I'm sure if you're listening, you've got examples that come to your mind right away. And, team, I would love to just hear from you on this too. You know what are some of the. You know, even going back four or five years to me there was such a 2020, I always think is such a turning a turning point kind of year. That was the year that COVID kind of broke onto the scenes. That was the year of the massive social justice protests and riots in the United States and Europe. There were just so many things and it seems like the velocity again has not slowed down, but it's only increased. Anyways, anyone want to share, as I kind of talk about some of these that are out there in the culture that you particularly have been dismayed by, like, or just bothered by or like oh no, this is horrible.
Dwight Vogt:I think the one that bothers me the most but it's just me is the evolution lie. I love to follow the Discovery Institute and listen to read science and stuff like that. And it's amazing because the more people study biology and physics and cosmology, it's just that the evidence is increasingly pointing to the failure of Darwin's you know theory but, people continue to propagate it as if it's gospel and just almost deny anybody the opportunity to think differently.
Dwight Vogt:And yet the evidence is just overwhelmingly moving away from it, such that, you know, some of the best scientists are actually saying, no, we've got to come up with a new theory it's not a God theory, but at least a new theory and I think that just disturbs me to no end that our young people in college and high schools are still getting blatant lies. It's a story, it's not true.
Scott Allen:Yeah, yeah, and it's such a boy that's such an important one too, Isn't it, Dwight? Such an important, you know false narrative.
Scott Allen:It's interesting to you know that that particular one has been weaponized in the sense that if you're a scientist and you're really seeking the truth and trying to kind of find out what really you know, what is the truth about origins and this kind of idea of purposeless evolution? You get canceled, you don't get published, you get fired. I mean, you know, we've seen this over and over again. Where it takes real courage to and it's kind of monolithic, in other words, almost all the universities, the journals, the associations, biological associations, they're all kind of a lockstep still upholding that narrative right, and so to kind of be a dissenting voice it requires real courage and people have paid prices for that. But thank God that people have been willing to be courageous enough to do that, because they're. You know, the great thing about truth is that, as many people have said, it has a way of coming out right and it is coming out, you know. On that one you know in particular.
Scott Allen:What about other folks? I mean that one, dwight. It's interesting that one is that you know way predates, you know 2020 that goes back, you know although it's still a living. You know that's a very much an alive. You know work of propaganda for sure.
Luke Allen:So yeah, as we were talking about on our last episode, the one that currently is really bothering me is just the fact that anti-Semitism is back and that's, you know, that's accepted by it seems like a global audience. And you know, like I said last time, I you know we love the history of World War II and we studied it all growing up and I continue to study and I just can't believe that we're back at the same issue this quick and the amount of spins and narratives that you're hearing around who are the Jews and what is Israel and what are they about and is just shocking right now how quickly that all spread in the last few months and how how much people are, you know, honestly misled around a lot of the topics and issues surrounding the Israel and Palestine war right now.
Scott Allen:Yeah, and the false narrative around that. Luke, we talked about this on the last episode. Encourage listeners to go back and listen to that one we used in particular, and you could look at lots of examples of this false narrative, but we looked at the public statements of Black Lives Matter after the Israeli, after the Hamas attack on Israel, and that statement I thought was just a very clarifying one, because it just laid out that that false narrative completely clearly. It said Israel is a genocidal power. You know it's trying to destroy Hamas. Hamas is the victim. You know that's the narrative, right, and that narrative is false and it's a lie.
Scott Allen:It's being perpetuated in such a powerful way, as you said, right now, luke, we're just seeing it everywhere and it's believed, right. I mean, it's behind all these, this massive protests that we're seeing all over the world. So you're right, that's a real current one that has really ancient roots. It just kind of keeps finding a way to come back in each new generation, even though you would think like, oh my gosh that. You know we're done with that, that can't come back, right, but it just seems like it keeps coming back.
Shawn Carson:One that stands out to me is just the whole victim mentality and the Marxist ideas behind that, because it seems like it's it was started and then it's just grown more and more, even to the point where now black lives matter, is advocating on behalf of Hamas, but you it, I don't think you can go anywhere without somebody you know tipping their hat to that idea that I'm a victim, I've been victimized and I just think, you know, just even as a country, even if you don't look at it through the biblical lens, but if you just look at it as a country, that was never Part of our narrative but it's now become part of our narrative, like people everywhere talking about this whole idea of who the victims are and who the oppressors are, and it seems like it, it that's just, you know, grown immensely over the last few years in our yeah, no question, sean.
Scott Allen:Yeah, in fact, you're touching on one that I was going to share about, which is, you know, that whole kind of Marxist idea has really reared its ugly head again. You know, this idea that we can group everybody into these two categories, and you know, victim and oppressor, and to do that you have to tell lies, because it's just way too simplistic and way too broad. So, for example, the one that comes to my mind that I wanted to share about and there's many but this whole thing with the 1619 project, that really bothered me, because this is the lie, or the false narrative that the United, it's a, it's a retelling of the founding of our country, and particularly the founding fathers, in a way that fits that binary that you're talking about, sean. Right, the, the founding fathers and the history of our country is uniformly evil. You know, they were nothing more than you know, greedy capitalist slaveholders and that's entirely what motivated them. Okay, here we get into this element of narratives where, you know it, there, right, there, there is some truth in that, right. I mean, it's not like that, you know, and often narratives are built around a grain of truth. But the point of narratives isn't truthfulness, it's telling a story that I would say that the creators of, creators of you know of those stories, no, is not true, but they're going to tell it in order to gain an advantage or to further Something that is in their interest, and so they're yeah, they.
Scott Allen:You know the 1619 project was Created largely by people in journalism, the New York Times in particular. You know there's particular journalists I can't remember her name behind it, but now it's been picked up, it's being taught in our public schools and it really is a retelling of who we are as a people, in a way that Leaves young people in particular with the impression that there's absolutely nothing to be proud of or grateful for. You know, in terms of being an American and it that one really it. I have a visceral reaction to that and I think it's because you know, and I think this is true for all people I hope it is that you know these are my people, right? So if somebody's telling a lie about my family, about my children, in a way that you know, very broad brush kind of way makes them into evil, horrible people, I get really angry.
Scott Allen:And I feel that way about the people in my own nation, right, they're not all perfect, but they did. You know honorable, courageous things. Many of them were Christians who tried really hard to uphold principles from the Bible, and we are all living in the blessing of that. I think that's part of it we have so much to be grateful for. There's no gratitude when you tell a lie or create a narrative like this. It's all you know. Just, we are all victims of these horrible people that created this horrible country. So that's yes for sure.
Luke Allen:That's one reaction to the 1619 project, dad, and I think the reason that it Affected, you know, made me so angry, as well as because it's not a current event. With current events, you can you can kind of, you know understand that there would be narrative and propaganda, because, you know, sometimes it's the facts don't get out and people jump to conclusions or rumors are swirling and all this confusion, you know it takes a while sometimes rest, understand what's going on, but when it's it's already happened in past and history. The facts are there, that people, you know they, they wrote down their memoirs and we have the journals, we have the facts now, and yet now they're spinning that narrative. You know, he who controls the past controls the present. That's right, and they're trying to do that with the 1619 project and that that really bothers me because it's like the facts are already out.
Scott Allen:Yeah, but it, you know, yeah, they, they need to be defended because these false stories can take root and it can become accepted, and that can last for Years, maybe even generations, before people can get back to the truth, if ever you can. So, tim, what about you on this? You know, my contention is that we're living in a time where the Amount of propaganda, false narratives, weaponized narratives, the velocities increasing and we're seeing this more and more. Do you agree with that? What are? What are you seeing, tim? What's your perspective on this?
Tim Williams:Yeah, I was gonna, you know, reference Israel and Gaza also. You know, I've seen a lot of thoughtful, educated friends, believers, who probably feel confused about the information coming out.
Scott Allen:But but Luke's already talked about that, so I you know it's good to hear you underscore that, though I'm yeah, I'd love to hear what you guys are thinking on this.
Tim Williams:I you know, I thought, one that we haven't really talked about in this particular episode, though We've mentioned it numerous times in the past as the the gender and sexuality issue, which is Really, in my opinion, wreaking havoc on children and students, and you know, for Decades, you know, kind of the messaging was people are born this way, they can't change and therefore we have to accept it. Well, they've abandoned all of that. Now they don't, they don't believe that anymore, so they've moved on to Newtellings of it. You know, and and now these days you know it's there's no real truth. So it's whatever you feel, what you determine your own reality. And if you don't affirm whatever that person's reality is, well, they, they might commit suicide and so then you're gonna that's what I mean by weaponized him.
Scott Allen:Yeah, they're using this emotional leverage. Go ahead, yeah, sorry.
Tim Williams:Yeah, and so you know it's just such. It doesn't help people. You know, what helps people is loving truth, and and the reality that God has Created them intentionally the way they are, with a purpose, with significance, and that he wants to meet them and help them, and and so that's not what we see in these narratives that are are really damaging Our people.
Scott Allen:Yeah, no, that one is being pushed so hard right now and did the thanks for bringing that up, tim. I mean, the way I would put that one is just you know that Sex male, female, is, is, is, is a lie. It's not true. It's not a biological truth, it's not a theological truth, it's just a man made, oppressive kind of lie. Truth is that sex, gender, is a choice and that whatever somebody chooses for themselves needs to be affirmed to the point of Surgeries you know, changing body parts and and to push back against that narrative is Really it's that one's so weaponized right now, you know.
Scott Allen:I mean people are canceled, they're vilified. Boy, there's just real hard Fores, full efforts being made to drive that narrative and they're being quite successful at that, I would say.
Luke Allen:Hi, friends, if you'd like to learn more about how you can disciple your family, your workplace, your school, your society or even your nation, make sure to check out our flagship online training course here at the Disciple Nations Alliance, which is called the Kingdomizer training program. We live in a world of poverty, corruption and injustice. We all know this isn't the way it should be and help needs to come from somewhere. But who is responsible to fight poverty and bring healing to our broken communities? The government or the church? The answer is the church, but unfortunately, we have largely neglected this responsibility.
Luke Allen:I here at the Disciple Nations Alliance. For the last 25 years, we have worked around the world helping Christians understand that our mission is more than saving souls for heaven. Our mission also includes being the hands and feet of God to transform the nations and bring healing, joy and transformation to our broken communities. If you'd like to learn more about how you can play a part in God's plan for the nations, check out the Kingdomizer training program, and that is available at quorumdayocom. Join over a million others who have learned how to bring biblical transformation into every corner of society by signing up today at quorumdayocom. Again, that is quorumdayocom, or you can always find the link in the episode page.
Tim Williams:In those same layers, there's like the strength and goodness of masculine qualities are being feminized and that masculinity is toxic. And then, on the other hand, the beauty and significance of feminine qualities and motherhood, and I mean we could go on and on about those they're being pushed. You know, women need to be strong, and so it's just such a such a sad and difficult time. We could go on it, yeah, anyway.
Scott Allen:Yeah, for sure. Well, there's. Luke you got another one.
Luke Allen:I agree with Tim there. No, that's. I think some of these topics we can kind of say you know, you know why, as Christians, are we involved in these? You know global discussions. They're kind of far away and don't affect us, which I would disagree with. I would say, you know, in the realm of ideas they all affect us. But the one that affects me the most here in my town, you know, when I'm out at the coffee shop, the one I kind of get quieter when I'm talking about, is the whole, is the whole sexual Issues of today, and that one and COVID, I would say those are the two up here in Oregon that are uncomfortable to talk about in public. But I'm always tried, I always try to be conscious of that when I feel like why do I have to feel like I can't, can't say this out loud, you know, and is that? Is that me? You know self censoring, or is what's going on here? Is this double thing? You know that's always to be cautious of that.
Scott Allen:Yeah, I know that you know a couple more for me that we're just stunning and shocking and remain that way. And I know that these, when I talk about these, you guys may cringe and I know others may cringe because it's like, oh, don't go there, don't talk about that, but you know well one of them is just the origins of COVID.
Scott Allen:Right, I remember when this thing, you know, kind of, was first unleashed and started to spread.
Scott Allen:You know, it came out of Wuhan and there's that lab right there, right, you know, that bio weapons lab. But then, very suddenly, you know, there was this effort to say that this was completely natural in its origins and came from a bat, you know, and just like any other virus. And but there was so much, I mean, to me, that seemed highly suspicious. I'm like, okay, you know, but but and not just to me many people were like I don't know if I believe that it seems like this might have been leaked out of, either intentionally or not. And so you know, I think, that that bio weapons lab right there in that town, a city, and then immediately there was this forceful pushback against that, you know, by powers that be in our government and you know, around the world. No, that is a conspiracy theory, wrong, you know. False, false, mis dis mal information, you know. Make, you know, take your choice on that. There's beyond that, and I would say the evidence just continues to mount on that, that no, this was a man made.
Scott Allen:And you know it's not just, you know, because of geography. We're actually scientists have really dug into the COVID virus itself and found that, no, it shows all these hallmarks of being man made and manipulated. So I think it's right we're not quite ready to say completely definitively on this, but there was a real effort to make sure that people didn't get to that, you know to, to muddy the waters, to push a false narrative, the false narrative being, I would say, you know, almost entirely is true that this is a false narrative, that this is just a, you know, a virus that you know just occurred naturally. So there's that. Another one that was shocking to me.
Scott Allen:Honestly, guys was very much involved in American politics, but it was the when President Trump was in his first term 2016, 2017, you had the what became known as the Trump Russia collusion narrative, and that was a created narrative. There was a, an incredibly detailed effort you know made to create, to create that false story and then to propagate it. You know you had British spies steel writing a dossier that was completely with, almost entirely well, it was entirely false. It was being propagated in the media and this and that to the point that I think, even to this day, I think something like 80% of Democrats believe that Trump only won in 2016 because he was helped by Putin. And there was this Trump Russia collusion thing. Well, that you know and that led to you know, a special prosecutor, probably two years of digging into every detail of Trump's life and then the whole thing started falling apart, to the point now that I think almost everyone is admitted know this thing was a false narrative aimed at harming him and destroying, kind of wrecking, his presidency.
Scott Allen:The thing that stunned me was that it was our own government, it's the CIA, it's the FBI, it's these groups that you kind of rely on to be truthful and honest and upright that were behind that. I was stunned, and maybe I shouldn't have been, maybe I was naive and that to this day, nobody's paid any price for that. There's been no kind of investigation into how that could be, how that could you know? So you know there's a number of these in this kind of political sphere, but that one to me was it still remains stunning, I mean jaw dropping to me that that could be done in our country in a way that completely undermines the will of the people in their choices of, you know, electing who they want. So anyways, I don't know. You guys probably are going. Scott, don't go there, it's political.
Dwight Vogt:Don't talk about Donald.
Scott Allen:Trump. I'm not, you know I'm not here. Don't misunderstand me. I'm not waving a flag for Donald Trump. I'm just saying I've never seen that in our government and I don't think it stopped. I think it's continued. This kind of our government is based on the will of the people and their choices and you know, making elections and things like that. But when that can be undermined through lies, false stories, narratives, propaganda, you name it we're all at risk. This isn't a Republican or a Democratic issue.
Dwight Vogt:Yeah, all that to say. I think that, yeah, it's disturbing because I we want to trust our government.
Scott Allen:Yes we have to.
Dwight Vogt:The the origins of COVID pushback was, was the first thing that said welcome, because our government was just trying to help China save face. I don't know, I don't know what their motives were, but they were trying to protect the relationship with China and all of our trade. So they were willing to push a narrative that said it's not China's fault, you know, and and. But it was the first time that I went wow, we really can't trust our government, you know they're not exactly Dwight, exactly.
Dwight Vogt:And, of course, with the collusion thing it's like, can we trust our government? So now, who trusts the government? You know, your local and it's it's diabolical because it's diabolical.
Scott Allen:Yeah, let's go there. This is why truth matters, dwight, and you're, you're touching on it. When you can't trust and trust levels of trust in our institutions, particularly our governmental institutions, is at historic lows, because people do smell through and they see through this and when you can't trust as society falls apart, just at a very basic level, you know, if you can't trust the people that are closest to you, if they're going to deceive you, if they're going to lie, you can't really have a relationship, you can't function. It's just. This is the very simple part of truth. Right, it's, it's just a glue that holds everything together. And that's why God is a God of truth, you know, because he's good and he creates good societies, good cultures, strong families, and they have to be based on that kind of bedrock cornerstone of truthfulness, truth telling.
Scott Allen:And then when you, when you move in the opposite direction, when you don't value that anymore and you're willingly moving in the direction of false, false, you know lies, deceptions, falsehoods, you're, you're, you're moving right over into the realm of Satan. Right, he's the one who's the father of lies. Right, it says in the Bible and when he lies he speaks his native language. I mean, this is very demonic, very satanic, and consequently it's destructive. That's what he wants to do is destroy. So we're just like you say, dwight things fall apart, they, they start, you know. You know we can't live if this continues, right? This is like pretty serious stuff.
Luke Allen:Yeah, I mean. A lot of what you guys are talking about is reminding me of Rod Durer's recent book Live Not by Lies, and in that book he you know he's he's looking at Dad. You read that book, didn't you A couple?
Dwight Vogt:of you guys read that.
Luke Allen:Yeah he's looking at some of the aggressive totalitarianism you know, hard totalitarianism we've seen over the last century and just trying to bring that to the forefront of our minds here in the US in 2024. And in that, in the beginning of the book I believe it is he he makes a distinction between hard totalitarianism, which is you can think of like Soviet Russia, and soft totalitarianism and he says we're probably not going to see hard totalitarianism again for a while because all of our flags are up. You know, we're, we're, we're. We've seen how that didn't work and we don't want to see it again. But soft totalitarianism has a way of sneaking in very subtly and taking a soft guard.
Luke Allen:And there's a quote from the book that I thought I'd like to share today and it says under soft totalitarianism, the media, academia, corporate America and other institutions are practicing new speak and compelling the rest of us to engage in double think every day. He goes on to say men have periods. The woman standing right in front of you you should call a? He. Diversity and inclusion means excluding those who object to ideal ideological uniformity. Equity is treating persons unequally, regarding on regarding their skills, achievements and accolades, and I would say that type of soft totalitarianism, where it's sneaking in from us from all angles, whether it's in academia or the media. That is still totalitarianism. What do you guys think about that? Am I getting too extreme here, or is that something that we're starting to see more in mass?
Scott Allen:No, I think Rod Dreyer's. I think it's good, a good distinction. For me, the simple way of saying that, Luke is hard to tell. Totalitarianism is when you've got a dictator at the top of the system, and China, communist China, would be an example of this. And if you get out of line with the truth, lowercase t in quotation marks truth that dictator is putting forward.
Scott Allen:You end up in the gulag, right, or you get killed. You vanish in the night. That's hard. Soft is where there's all this social pressure to self-censor, right, and it's the same result. We're living in lies, but it's not hard in the sense it's being forced or coerced from on high. It's more kind of in the water that we breathe and in our social setting and we know that that'll be very uncomfortable to talk about, that. We don't want to talk about it because it'll create tension in our relationship. So we self-censor.
Scott Allen:To me that's the hallmark of soft totalitarianism is self-censorship. You're willing to not speak the truth just because there's a price to be paid for it from your friends, or whatever it is.
Luke Allen:Yeah, and with a couple of the issues that we just talked about. It's at the point now where we have the same mindset, when we approach the Bible and we try to self-censor the Bible and make it more comfortable and that's when I really see red flags popping up is when this part of the Bible is fine to talk about, but this one's uncomfortable. Let's skip along over here and that's pretty dangerous.
Scott Allen:Yeah, I mean to that point, luke. I was just in preparing for the talk today, I went back and I looked at Ligonier Ministries. They do every two years they do what they call the state of theology report and they kind of are looking at the understanding of core Christian doctrines within the evangelical church, particularly in the United States, and I would say for the last 10, 20 years, I mean, the trends have been quite bad. In other words, people are losing a touch on core Christian doctrines and one of the big ones is this whole, you know, is around this issue of truth.
Scott Allen:So the broader culture right now we live in a time of secular postmodernism, that's kind of the dominant ideology, and that that ideology doesn't believe in objective truth. Truth is personal and it's subjective. It's your truth, my truth, but there isn't a truth that's out there. Of course, the Bible says no, that's completely false. Right, there is a truth that's out there. God exists and he is the truth and what he says is true. I mean, that is objectively true and that's revealed in the pages of the Bible, which is, you know, a, as Darrow would say, this is the true story, right, the transforming story. It's the true story and it has a lot to say about things, for example, like sexuality and about and this is where let me just quote a little bit from this report In the 2020 state of theology report it quote it events to profound evangelical church events, to profound unfamiliarity with core teachings of Christian orthodoxy and a confusion about the objective nature of truth.
Scott Allen:So you have increasing numbers of evangelicals saying things like there is no such thing as objective truth and particularly Tim, this is to your point around issues of sexuality there is no such thing as objective truth. So, yeah, this is a problem not just out there in the culture. This is increasingly a problem in the church, where where there's just confusion about truth. So any thoughts on that, guys? Just kind of the challenges in the church that we're facing on this.
Shawn Carson:Well, personally, I've thought about that quite a bit lately, had some good discussions with different people and and I really like the way you just kind of put that out there because I think there is a great distinction between what the culture is saying and what the church is saying or should be saying. But as we've, you know, talk about either the church is discipling the nation or the nation is discipling the church, and to me it seems like, within culture, truth has become something that we used to take for granted and now we can't take for granted anymore.
Shawn Carson:People aren't honest people aren't truthful and I think that when you see that in a culture and you start thinking, well, is that news story really true? Is you know? Is COVID really this? Is.
Shawn Carson:Marxism really, that you start developing a lot of suspicions and then you know a lot of cynicism about things and then before long you think, well, is truth really truth, and what is truth? And can I really know it? Because you know, I don't see that being practiced around me. So, unless you're really, you know, solidly grounded in in God's truth and God's word of being truth, then I think you're going to pretty much fall prey to the cultural narratives around you.
Scott Allen:Yeah, sean, such a great point. I think that cynicism that word cynicism is something that we're seeing increasingly in just this kind of shrugging our shoulders and throwing up our hands and we'll never know what's true, because you know, there's just so many lies out there, right, everyone's kind of got their own lies and their own truth, and so the cynic just throws up the hands and says what's the point? Just, you know. You know, we just have to kind of accept the reality that we live in a world where we're trying to be manipulated by lies and and any kind of effort to get at the truth objective truth again is is is a waste of time, it's like it's not going to happen. I see that. I see that in the church as well, by the way, and I I just think this is part of the reason I wanted to have this discussion with you guys, because that to me, is incredibly alarming, like we can't afford the luxury of becoming cynical about truth.
Luke Allen:Thoughts on that guys, I think that's behind the whole deconstruction movement right now that we see inside the church of just breaking down the Bible, and you know this, this hyper open mindedness.
Luke Allen:You know, oh, we don't know for sure you know, and it's this hyper open mindedness that will never have a closed mindedness, it seems, on certain issues. I don't know if I would always say it's. There's a cynicism to the truth. I think a lot of times people just want to keep their friends also and the whole my truth, your truth, is such an argument under. It's so comfortable you know like oh, you know. No, no problem, it's just your, I'm just, that's just my truth. You know, you go to your thing, I'm not going to judge, you know you know, talk about easy.
Luke Allen:It's like the ultimate cop out. So I think a lot of people just enjoy that ease as well. Of course that doesn't work in the long run. But you know, I wouldn't, yeah, I wouldn't say they're all for the next.
Scott Allen:It's understandable, right? I mean, it's very uncomfortable, you might lose friends, you know, and things like that. But I do want people to kind of weigh the cost of that. What if we all just said I kind of think that's not true, but it's going to create ripples or problems if I say anything about it. So I'm just going to not do that and I would just say pause it. That if we make that choice, then we're kind of consigning ourselves to live within this realm of lies and again, this is a destructive you're. You're participating at that point in the destruction of relationships and society. So you know it may feel comfortable and it is.
Scott Allen:I mean, I get that right. I don't want to bring that up, that's kind of great problems, but but you know, go ahead I think it's more than comfort.
Dwight Vogt:It's actually I've heard it's a friend of mine, a young friend uses it a lot, says it a lot, and it's almost a point of pride. It's it's like that his highest value is. I will not judge you. You believe what you want to believe, I believe what I want to believe and we're good.
Scott Allen:It's become a virtue yeah.
Dwight Vogt:It becomes a virtue, a high virtue, like maybe even the highest virtue, and with some people today and the problem there is you know, if you carry that to extreme, you know this person's going to run out in the street in front of a car and they believe it's not going to hurt them. And you go hey, your truth is your truth, my truth is my truth. But the reality is that when you follow mis-truth and lies, there is always damage and always destruction.
Luke Allen:It's never, never harmless.
Dwight Vogt:Lies are never harmless. And so basically, we're saying you know, you go ahead and hurt yourself, you go ahead and kill yourself, you go ahead and destroy your life, you go ahead and I really don't care. That's what you're saying.
Scott Allen:Thank you, dwight. That is such an important point that you're making. Because you're right, it's become a virtue, but it's it's so wrong because, just exactly for the reasons that you've said you're, you're essentially saying I don't care about you. That's really what you're saying, you know under the guise of I care about you. I mean, it's just a crazy thing, yeah, right that reminds me of first John 3, 18,.
Luke Allen:You know, children, let us not love and talk, but indeed and in truth, and it's, you know, loving and talks easy, but actually acting it out in truth, that's the uncomfortable part. Dwight, what you were just saying reminds me of two quotes I came across this week that kind of addressed that point. One's from Albert Einstein. He says the world is in greater peril of those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it.
Luke Allen:And then MLK, following that up a few years later, said he who is passive, he who passively accepts evil, is much more involved in it than he who helps it or perpetuate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating in it.
Scott Allen:Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, those are great quotes, luke, and to me that's why we have to, because because the velocity of lies in our culture is increasing. The speed of that and you can, you know, you name it whatever one bothers you the most. The question is, what do we do? How do we respond as the church and we? I just, I just really want to urge you, know us as a team here myself this is very personal, like I have to be really committed to truth telling and honesty and all that I do, you know, but we have to be people of the truth and that's going to be uncomfortable, it's going to be hard, but just to the point that you guys are making so well here, the opposite is to give, is to just give over to evil, to give over to Satan, and it's going to destroy, it's destroying lives and destroying cultures as well. So we, it's a challenging time, but that's the time, of course God, you know, ordained for us to be here in a challenging time. Great, so let's be people that speak truthfully and, yeah, I want to get, I want to have a couple more things.
Scott Allen:I'd like to kind of touch with you guys on this, because it's not easy, okay, it's not easy for a variety of reasons to speak truthfully and we've talked about you know, just there's a price to be paid in terms of our own relationships, or, and that we can turn that into a kind of a virtue, as you suggested, dwight. But it's also not easy because sometimes it's hard to kind of discern what is true. You know how do you even do that and that I'd like to talk a little bit about that. But but before we go there, I just guys, when we think about the scriptures and this concept of objective truth, what are some you know places that you go into in the Bible to root that? Or just you go, man, this is, this is where we really see this in the scriptures. Any thoughts on that? I mean, it's, it's all over the Bible, but I would love to just get your thoughts on kind of where you go to in your own mind or heart, or studies on that.
Dwight Vogt:I just you know, I was raised with it by parents who believed the Bible and were committed to it as the truth and yeah
Dwight Vogt:so for me, my, my issue is more what do you do with the? What do you do with difficult passages in the Bible? What do you do with, seems, themes that seem things that seem contradictory, those kind of issues? And there it's. For me, it's a matter of read the whole thing. Just you know, when you, when you, when you read the whole Bible and you read passage after passage, you get a sense of this is the direction God goes. This is the what God is, this is what he thinks, this is how he is.
Dwight Vogt:And and anytime we pick out one verse and say, well, that's contradictory, and we build a theology on it, we get in trouble. For me, that's important.
Scott Allen:Yeah, to look at the whole yeah.
Luke Allen:I think it's so gracious that God he, yes, he revealed himself through the Bible, through the word, and in the word is truth. But he also, you know, gave us general revelation in common grace. And there's this, there's this. You know, this way that all of us, as humans, believe or not, can understand the truth and can see it. It's written on our heart and you know, when we were talking about, like postmodernism, I have a really hard time believing that anyone can fully grasp that as a worldview, because it's an absolute rejection of truth. We all know there's truth, gravity exists.
Luke Allen:You know, when you're on the airplane. You want, you want truth to exist.
Scott Allen:Objective truth You're talking about, you know, not open to different people's opinions. It's just a brute fact, right.
Luke Allen:Right, and God made that known to us as humans, which I think is great. And then, yeah, one of my favorite passages when it comes to this is just John 8.31.32. If you abide in me, in my word, you are my true disciples and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
Scott Allen:Yeah, yes, amen, yeah, jesus spoke so so frequently about him and his character and relationship to truth. Yeah, but, luke, to your point too. You know it's funny, you you say, oh, I can't believe it. I mean, clearly we live in a time where postmodernism is the reigning worldview today, so we've all kind of fooled ourselves at some level into thinking that truth is subjective. But, just like you said, you know it's. No one, at the end of the day, really can live with that, because we all know that it's not. And there's examples. You gave the example of gravity.
Scott Allen:One that I like to give as an example is if I was accused of murder by a group of people that wanted to harm me and they created a very elaborate narrative around that. You know, at that point, for me truth matters. Truth matters, right. There's no that we're talking an objective truth matters. I either committed murder, I didn't, right. I mean that objectively, not I think I did, or I believe I did or I didn't know. I either did or I didn't, and it matters because I'll go to prison.
Dwight Vogt:You know what I'm saying.
Scott Allen:So everyone understands that right, we understand that there is objective truth. Right, and we have to. You know that we can't live with this idea that, oh, it's all just completely subjective.
Scott Allen:No it's not. And we I think you're right, luke we all know that, but somehow we fooled ourselves as an entire culture at this time, kind of thinking that it's not there, that it doesn't exist or it doesn't matter. I often think of the apostle Paul talking about just the very basis of our faith, and it's rooted in truth, you know, and the truth being that Jesus rose from the grave and that wasn't just somebody's idea that I jet, that's an objective truth. He's alive, he's risen from the dead. And he says and I don't have that verse in front of me, but you all know the one I'm talking about, you know, if, if he didn't, if he's still in the grave, then we've believed a lie and our faith is worthless. So the entire faith that we have has to be based on objective truth.
Scott Allen:And, by the way, it's so interesting that that central of all truths, that Jesus rose from the dead, there was immediately a false narrative put out by the Romans right to counter that right, and they used their levers of power right to perpetuate this idea that Jesus, you know, didn't break, you know, rise from the dead. He's still in that tomb, you know so, but it all, everything matters, everything hinges on that one, and so that one to me is and you have to get at that truth, and that's that's where we'll end our discussion today. I wonder how do we get at that truth? How do we know that's true? You know that's not an easy thing to know, so but, sean and Tim, I'd love to hear from you guys on, just you know, your own love for the truth as it's rooted in the scriptures. Is there any particular thing you'd like to share about that?
Tim Williams:John 14-6, of course, is a, you know, a well-known passage. I'm the way and the truth. Yes, in the life. Jesus says, and just, I mean those are the words of our, of our Savior and our Lord, and I mean it's just, it's so obvious. I mean, as believers, we understand and recognize that God is real, yeah, and that he's created a real world, and that the way he's created it matters.
Scott Allen:I heard yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead and tell me to me to catch off.
Tim Williams:Yeah, no go ahead.
Scott Allen:Yeah, I heard a discussion. I think it was Jordan Peterson and he was talking to. Who's that Irish mathematician from Oxford, luke?
Luke Allen:Lennox, lennox.
Scott Allen:John Lennox Gosh. It was so powerful and it was just recent. It was on that particular verse that you're quoting, tim, where Jesus says I am the way, the truth in the life and the can't remember. I think it was Lennox that made the point that he said Jesus said he didn't say I say true things, he said I am the truth, yeah, and he made a point there that I thought was very profound and very deep. It caused me to kind of stop and reflect for a while. He said truth isn't you know some kind of abstract kind of statement. At the end of the day, it's a person, it's a person, I am the truth, it's you know, and just so again, I don't know the depths of all that. I just thought that was something worth kind of pondering a little bit that, at the end of the day, truth is Jesus. You know, he is the truth. He doesn't just say truth things, he is the truth. Yeah, that's really great, tim. Thanks for sharing that, sean. How about you?
Shawn Carson:Yeah, numbers 2319. God is not a man that he should lie. Yeah, I think that's profound, because, yeah, I mean, and to me I just go back constantly to the character and nature of God and if he if he is who he says he is, then you'll find that out the more you get to know him, the more you see the way the world works, and I haven't seen any evidence to prove that he isn't true and that he isn't.
Shawn Carson:You know that he that he does tell lies. I've never seen any evidence of that, but I've seen the other to be true, like he is. He is solid, he is dependable, he is faithful he is he, he, he is true, you know, he doesn't, he doesn't change in that way.
Scott Allen:The Bible makes that explicit, doesn't it, sean? It's impossible for God to lie. That alone is kind of mind-blowing, because we, you know there's other verses that say that nothing is impossible with God, right? Well, yes, something is impossible with God, and that is to go against his very nature, which is truth. It's impossible to lie. He is truth. You know, to move towards God is to move towards the truth. To move away from God, to reject God, is to live in a lie or to embrace lies. It's kind of that simple. The kingdom of God is a kingdom of truth and the kingdom of Satan is a kingdom of lies.
Shawn Carson:Yeah, Scott, you mentioned earlier. You talked about the origins of COVID and how that all came about, and we were told that you know it came from a bat yeah then, over time, the evidence is pointing.
Shawn Carson:Yes, that's not true. Yeah, and I think, you know, I find in a lot of conversations that I have is that in the world that we live in today, truth sometimes is buried, you know, and it's like, and sometimes it takes time for it to truly be revealed. Yeah, and between you hear a story and then the truth coming out. I think that's where we get stuck, you know.
Shawn Carson:I even had a conversation with someone yesterday. He said well, don't we just have to choose sides and then see what happens? And I think that that's sometimes where people find themselves is like well, do I believe, for example, the COVID came from a bat, or do I believe that it was manufactured? Well, I have to choose something. Those are the two options, so I'll choose one and we'll see what happens. But then then you either align yourself with a narrative that says, well, it came from a bat, or you align yourself with a narrative that Kim says it came from a, from a factory. But then you think well, what Christian would say? Well, no, there is objective truth. You can decide that will reveal itself whether it did come from a bat or it did come from a yeah, it was one or the other right, it's one or the other okay
Dwight Vogt:yeah, that's the objective truth.
Scott Allen:That's the objective truth, right? They can't both be true. One of those things is true objectively right. Go ahead, sean.
Shawn Carson:Yeah no, I just think you said something because it's a, you know, be suspicious. That was one thing that you said. You know everybody has started to like either decide, and you said well, I was a little bit suspicious because this came out and then this came out, but then time revealed what was true and I think we should you know as Christians, even if you're seeking Jesus you have a suspicion, is he? True or is he false? Is he the Son of God or is he not? Is he alive?
Shawn Carson:there's a suspicion, then you search, search that out. Now what do you? What is your evidence shown you? Yes and you know, and then I think, because I think sometimes we're, we're put on the spot to make a decision and in the world that we live in today, everything you have to make a decision right now. You can't take your time, you can't think about it, you just got to make a decision and you're, you're kind of weak if you can't you know, I think, I think that that's a lie.
Shawn Carson:To be honest, I think the idea that you know, hey, my propensity is this direction, but I'm open to understanding something If the truth comes out and it says this and I'll change my opinion on that, you know what I mean. Versus just like, hey, come what may, this is the truth and I can't change my perspective whatsoever.
Scott Allen:Yeah, you're going to where I'd like to end our discussion, sean, which is how do we get at the truth? And you're talking about pursuing truth through logic, reason, evidence, and I just want to put down a few kind of markers on this. First of all, as Christians, we believe in objective truth. I think, luke, as you said, even non-Christians believe in objective truth when it comes right down to it, when it matters for them, right. So there is objective truth. Then the question is how do you know it, especially when people are lying and saying something that's going against that and they're clouding the waters and purposely trying to distort. So how do you get at that? And this is where I would say that the Bible says that you can pursue it, you can get at it, but it takes work. Okay, it doesn't just like the clouds don't just part and you see it completely clearly.
Scott Allen:And this is where I would say God made us in his image to be truth seeking people, and part of that is that he's given us a mind that can think rationally and logically, can examine evidence. Frankly, our whole judicial system is based on this right. It's this idea that we have to look at the evidence, we have to examine the witnesses. We may not know the truth entirely In fact we probably won't but we can know it kind of beyond a reasonable doubt or whatever that threshold is. And I just think there's a lot of truth to that, because we are fallible people, right, we don't see things in their entirety. We're not God, we don't have a God-like vantage point on things. So it's always a challenge.
Scott Allen:I don't think we'll ever know the truth in its entirety, even about God, right, it's just too big for our small minds. But that doesn't mean you can't know some truths or pursue the truth and get at it more and more, and that is a core conviction that I have. I think that's a biblical conviction. I also think that's something that people have kind of given up on. This is your point, sean, a little bit today, and it's just kind of like well, it's the point. I just got to pick my side and we've kind of devalued logic and evidence and pursuing the truth. Do you guys agree with that or disagree?
Dwight Vogt:Well, yeah, I think that's the danger. I was listening to a couple of people talk about this subject, even a couple of weeks ago, and this one guy who was a president of a Christian college. He said you know, we don't know the truth always, but he says we can seek it and what we need to do first is listen and read. And he says those are hard things to do. To listen, it takes time.
Scott Allen:And to read.
Dwight Vogt:It takes time. You have to withhold judgment. You have to weigh, you have to collect, you have to discern. It's work. You have to work and it's so much easier just to make a pop decision, put your flag down and say this is what's true, right or wrong, I'm going for it. Get out of my way.
Scott Allen:And he says Christians discern, and that means doing the hard work and we don't have the luxury of doing that. We have to. We're called to that work of truth, seeking right. You know, I just think that's part of what it means to be made in God's image, right? We don't have the luxury of just saying, oh, it doesn't matter, I'm sorry, dwight, go ahead.
Scott Allen:Yeah, or jumping to a conclusion that might be wrong, or jumping to a conclusion right and just kind of holding onto it regardless. Yeah, in this search for the truth, there's the humility is required because we may have to like Sean to your point, we may have to change our right. You know the evidence. I thought this, but the evidence is mounting up on the other side. I've got to change my view on this. And the idea too, that we have to withhold any kind of judgment or any kind of action, or you know, in our part, until we have all of the evidence, I think is also wrong, wrong kind of mind, wrong minded. We're not going to have all the evidence, but we're going to have a preponderance and I think based on that, you take action okay.
Scott Allen:So, yeah, go ahead, luke. What were you going to say?
Luke Allen:Well, I just, you know, I just think of James 1, 1920, you know be, quick to listen, so to speak, so to become angry, and I wish I could, just on social media. If that was the rule, it would be such a peaceful place.
Luke Allen:It'd be great. But yeah, there's a point here at which we need to be discerning, logical. You know the guys over at Stand the Reason they always say when you're looking at a truth or a lie, you always want to ask three questions Is it logical, is it literal and is it livable? And I like that kind of framework.
Scott Allen:Me too yeah.
Luke Allen:But there's a point at which waiting and reading turns into procrastinating out of fear. You know, I think of with some things, like Dad with your book on social justice, why social justice is not biblical justice.
Luke Allen:That book after the events of the summer of 2020, was a very hot topic very uncomfortable and I think a lot of Christians had an inkling of what to think about it and they started kind of making up their minds on it, but they didn't want to say anything and they wanted to wait until enough people agreed with them before they popped their head up and started talking. And I think a lot of times we have that kind of mob mentality. We don't want to be the first one to stand up and say there's some suspicious here, you know, because you're going to probably get shot down. And yet, two years later, a lot of people look back at the summer of 2020 and the riots and the looting and we say, yeah, that was wrong, A lot of that was messed up, but it's hard to be that first person. So there's a do you see what I'm saying here? There's an element of less waiting to learn.
Scott Allen:And then there's an element that we need to do something. Yeah, but to me it's also. I think we are. I'll speak personally. I just can't live with myself if I don't say something, and there was some lies around that that really bothered me. I mentioned 1619.
Scott Allen:Another one of those lies that bothered me a lot was this lie that was being perpetuated, that the police are committing genocide against young black men, Like that was just out there. Y'all had to kind of nod your head to that one, and to me that was just such a blatant lie. Again, of course there's some bad cops, there's bad doctors, pilots, you name it right. We've got like nobody's perfect. But this idea to go to that far extreme and say there's a genocide I just thought was I was just an intolerable lie.
Scott Allen:That was also going to be incredibly destructive, because if that's true, then we've got to defund the police and all of this happened, right, and then crime has just spiked and nobody wants to be a police officer today. That's where we find ourselves because of that lie and so, but yeah, no, I can't live with myself if that's out there circulating and you kind of look at it and you know it's a lie. The Hamas thing, you guys, I think, are ones that bother you a lot, or the gender one, and you know it's a lie. You know that's good. Don't just allow it to keep circulating, right, Even if you have to be one of the early ones to kind of speak out against it, right? I think that's how can you live with yourself.
Luke Allen:But what about to push back a little bit? What about when you understand that Israel's in a apartheid state? That's clearly wrong. I can agree with you on that. But all the politics between Palestine and Israel, I don't understand it. There's a lot going on. You know Israel's also doing some things that are questionable in this situation. I don't understand that. I would rather not talk. How would you respond to that?
Scott Allen:I would respond this way Luke, it's fine to say there's a lot that I don't know, just a point of fact around that. But this, on this point where somebody says Israel is in a apartheid state, that's a lie, okay, and I know that. Then you need to speak out on that point. I felt this way and I know this is probably really controversial, but I felt this way about the vaccine when it came out, the COVID vaccine, because there was a lot we didn't know, right, none of us. We were all trying to discern is this good, bad, should we take this? And there was a lot of narratives around that and one of the things that was said by the proponents of the vaccine was it's completely safe. And at that moment I know, well, there's a lot I don't know about this vaccine, but I know that's not true Because nobody knows. You know whether that's true. You can't make that statement. It's too new, like it takes a long time to know whether a vaccine is safe. It has to go through years of testing. We haven't had that. So that raised my suspicions immediately like, okay, well, you just hold a lie there, right, that this is completely safe, right, okay. So I don't know a lot about the vaccine, but that one I know right that I've got to say something about that, right. So I know, don't go there, scott. I know that's a bad one, but anyways. So I think, yeah, I think it's good to be humble, luke, to your point of just yeah, there's a lot I don't know. But when you do know something, you got to speak out on that point and you know and just say, but I'm going to keep pursuing the truth on all these other fronts too. But you know Well, guys, we probably need to be.
Scott Allen:This has been, again, a really good discussion. I just want to underscore kind of the point at the beginning that we live at a time of, you know, increasingly weaponized lies, false narratives. The velocity is increasing, the speed is increasing. I think that we all agree on that. So I think that you know, to be salt, to be light, to be true followers of Jesus Christ at this time is going to require us to have a strong kind of commitment to truth telling. And again, this has to be very personal. You know, in our own lives, and I will confess to you, guys, I don't always tell the truth, you know. I shade the truth, you know, and increasingly I'm bothered by that, I'm really convicted by that. Lord, please forgive me. I just it wasn't honest there, but I really want to be, you know, completely honest. You know, to the degree that I'm able, and that's personal.
Scott Allen:And then, of course, publicly, we need to be people that show the courage to speak out when we know something is true or we strongly suspect or there's strong evidence. We can't just kind of keep our heads down. You know, we've used the story very often of the green grocer, right During the Cold War, right, who puts the sign up in the window of his store every day, you know that affirms the Marxist narrative, right, but he does that just cause he doesn't want to be bothered by officials. And finally he decides that he's a part of the problem. He's a part of propping up all of this false, you know, kingdom of lies that are destroying his nation and people, and he's not going to do it anymore. He's going to take that sign down, and I think that's what we need to be doing more than anything now.
Luke Allen:So final thoughts from any of you guys as we wrap up today Well, I'd love to hear a little bit more about how we can find the truth. You know I shared with the standard reason, you know breakdown of logical, literal and livable. What else can we do to identify what is truth and what is not? Go ahead, one thought on that is just you know we are the DNA.
Dwight Vogt:We talk about biblical worldview every week on this podcast, and when we think about biblical worldview, we're talking about the fundamental truths about God, about mankind and about nature. And when we build on that, when we have a profound understanding of those deep truths, that's when you can start going. Hmm, that doesn't sound right. It provides a grid to listen and to like for you, scott.
Dwight Vogt:It caused you to say, hey, nobody can say it's completely safe, because we live in a fallen world and every medicine has a downside or whatever. But it gives you the grid to say something's not right there, and then you can start questioning.
Scott Allen:It's a really great point, dwight, just thinking worldview-ishly, from the vantage point of the biblical worldview, and these, like you say, these deeper, profound truths about God, about his word, about what does it mean to be a human being, about where evil comes from, and it does create, as you say, a grid or a filter through which you can kind of see everything else, and that's a way of getting it truth. I think that's really an excellent point. I would add one more thing, and I'd love to hear, tim and Sean, your thoughts on this one too. Luke, but I think increasingly we have to kind of rely on other people too. We are not. This is truth seeking is something we have to do in a community, and so you have to go out and you have to find people that share that deep commitment to the truth and they have a track record of honesty and you can kind of rely on that.
Scott Allen:I think for a long time we could kind of just assume that what was being talked about in the press, for example, was reliable or trustworthy. No, not anymore. So you have to go and you have to find particular journalists. I find this, and particularly the area of media and journalism. I find particular journalists who have a track record of truth speaking and have paid a price for it.
Scott Allen:In my own consumption of media, I go to two or three or maybe four different people that I've been able to identify in that way, and that's how I can try to discern what's happening out there in the world. I listen to them because of their track record. Does that mean they're perfect? No, but at least they have a commitment. I can see that track record, that commitment of truth. And the same is true in the church. Right, pastors or whoever it is, did they have a commitment to the truth on big issues? Right, on issues of human sexuality, for example, or not? So you have to find those people and and yeah, we need each other in this, I guess is kind of my point.
Luke Allen:Sean, I'd love to hear from you when the newest world ending headline pops up in your news feed. How do you filter what's actually going on there?
Shawn Carson:Yeah, I'd like to know what myself. Yeah. Next.
Dwight Vogt:That's right, it's an easy question, sean. Come on, that's right.
Shawn Carson:Yeah, that's great. You know, I think part of it to me is my first thought is does God have a perspective on these things? Cause I think even if I just looked at the Hamas and Israel thing, I would say cause I had a discussion with somebody and I said, well, okay, go ahead. He was on a particular side and I said, okay, well, tell me which side is Jesus on? Because the reality is is probably there are things that we've talked about that both sides are doing wrong, and so just to like tip my hat to one side because I like that side or I feel sorry for that side, or whatever it is, isn't probably the right answer.
Shawn Carson:And then trying to ask myself, like, well, what does truth say about these things? And is it true that God has a perspective on these things? Yes, it is. How do I see what that perspective is? How do I understand what that is? How do I interpret what I'm hearing from the idea that true truth does exist, and what does that promote? What does that produce in the world that we live in? And I mean, I'm not trying to over spiritualize it, but I think that's my first tendency is to try to think that way, because you know there is lots of things that you wonder well, what is the truth on this matter? And it's hard to know because it's somebody's perspective over somebody else's.
Shawn Carson:And I do try to think, you know how do I? I have a propensity, you know I'm happy to, and it's based on, you know, what I've heard myself, what I've, who I trust that's saying the same things Um, uh, what is the evidence behind those, those uh perspectives? And then, um, but also being willing to uh, hold on loosely to that and say, well, this is, this is my opinion. But you know, this is how I'm willing to to see what happens with us and and be willing to stand in the tension of being wrong or being right, but being willing to stand in that tension and, um, that's a hard place to be, because I like to be, uh, I want to be a man of conviction, you know and um, but I don't think that conviction just means that I'm, uh, what I believe is right, uh, I want to be able to be a man seeking after truth.
Shawn Carson:And there to me is there's a little bit of tension even in that. So I really appreciate these thoughts because I think it's it is valid to to seek truth, uh, to pursue it, to be in community to share ideas and hear other people's ideas and to be able to discern. You know, who are people that have a worldview that truth is a is a part of their worldview. So, uh, you hear a lot of newscasters who truth. Truth isn't a part of their worldview. They don't really care about truth.
Shawn Carson:You know, and so I'm not going to follow somebody who doesn't value that. You know I'm not going to listen to them so.
Scott Allen:Tim, thoughts for me on Luke's question there as we wrap up today.
Tim Williams:Yeah, that's great. Um, you guys have responded really well to a lot of uh ideas related to current events and I would agree on with all of those, you know, in the context of healthy spiritual um mentors and community. Um, you know just to to iterate something totally basic we have to have knowledge of the scripture, we have to invest in a knowledge of the scripture. We are inundated with, uh, the thoughts of the world and and that's just you know, we get it um throughout our waking hours, you know. But uh, so often it's challenging for us to get into the scripture and give it our time and um, many, many people haven't read through the scriptures, you know, cover to cover, and that's that that needs to be a priority.
Tim Williams:I mean, if this is the reliable, faithful witness of who God is and how he's interacted with humanity, as understood for thousands of years, then we've got to, we've got to know it, we need to know it, we need to breathe it, we need to think about it, we need to meditate on it and um, so that's just. You know my encouragement to, to build on what you guys have already said, something basic and another in in terms of theological thought, also, that I heard a saying 10 years ago.
Tim Williams:You know they said if it's new, it's not true, If it's true, it's not new, and um, you know it's not, I'm not quoting the Bible there, just a a popular saying, but I think that God, throughout the ages, has dealt with a lot of things and and given us the truth that we need for it, and uh.
Tim Williams:I think we should be rightly suspicious if, all of a sudden, we discover some new insight about you know, what it means to be human, and, uh, how we come up and generate truth, and you know things of these natures. I think we, by God's grace, his desire, has been to help us with that all alone.
Scott Allen:So, yeah those are really good thoughts to end on, tim, and just to underscore you know the the Bible as the truth, you know as God's, you know word of truth to us. Uh, that's meant a lot to me as I see the velocity of lies and and especially in this world of of media that we live in now, where it's just pervasive and it's all around us, it's on our phones and our watches, and you just sense that there's so much of it. That's that's. You know it's being weaponized. There's lies, there's deceptions. Everyone's got some agenda.
Scott Allen:I don't know what's right and wrong, what's true and what's false. I it's just a mess. And then you sit down and you open up the Bible and it's like clear water, you know pure air, it's like truth. This is solid, end to end truth. There's nothing false, deceptive, it's just true. And to me that's been so refreshing of late. Just if I want to just get out of this cloud of lies and deceptions, I just put my head in the Bible again. It's like this is, this is pure water here I'm so grateful for it.
Luke Allen:I love this, this quote about the biblical worldview Douglas, growth, growth, this probably, but but your just last name. I've never known us say that.
Scott Allen:I grew ties yeah.
Dwight Vogt:Groot ice.
Luke Allen:Yeah, okay, douglass Groot ice once said Christianity is an integrated worldview that is objectively, universally and absolutely true, reasonable, knowledgeable and ex-essentially pertinent for both individuals and entire cultures. And it's, you know, spot on Um, and I think if we can ground ourselves off of that, I know a lot of big words.
Scott Allen:If we can ground ourselves. I think you said it all there. We didn't need this podcast, we should just read that quote there.
Luke Allen:But it is a grounding place. You know, it's our anchor, it's God is our, it's our firm foundation and uh, yeah, that is the best vantage point to be standing on when you're looking towards the future of 2024 with all its unknowns.
Scott Allen:Great thoughts, guys, great discussion. I uh, as always, I'm leaving encouraged, fired up and edified. Thank you. I hope the rest of you who are listening today thank you for, for we're honored and just humbled that you would take time to listen to this podcast, and hope that you are also encouraged, edified by what we shared today and, uh, just want to thank you again for listening to another episode of ideas have consequences. This is the podcast of the disciple nations.
Luke Allen:Thank you for joining us today. As my dad just pointed out, ideas have consequences is the podcast of the disciple nations alliance and as a nonprofit ministry, we are blessed to be able to provide our biblical worldview courses and this podcast to you completely free, thanks to our generous supporters. If this podcast has been a blessing to you, we would greatly appreciate it If you would subscribe on Apple podcast, spotify or wherever you're listening and, as you are able, we would also hope that you would consider supporting this podcast with a donation. To donate, visit disciple nationsorg and on our homepage you will see the blue button that says donate, or you can follow the link in the show notes.
Luke Allen:As a parting remark to today's discussion, I wanted to leave you guys with this quote from the late Soviet dissident Alexander social needs and to live in truth and quote. To live not by lies means you will not say, affirm, write or distribute anything that distorts the truth and quote. This is a high call, but one I hope we can all strive to live in. Thanks again for listening to ideas have consequences. We hope you're able to join us here next Tuesday for our excellent upcoming discussion with the shell, mongo wadi, as we hear his thoughts about the current rise of interest in the Bible and the biblical worldview from prominent intellectuals, politicians, scientists and global leaders. Again, if you want to find that episode, it will be out next Tuesday here on ideas have consequences.