Ideas Have Consequences
Everything that we see around us is the product of ideas, of ideologies, of worldviews. That's where everything starts. Worldviews are not all the same, and the differences matter a lot. How do you judge a tree? By its fruits. How do you judge a worldview? By its physical, tangible, observable fruit. The things it produces. Ideas that are noble and true produce beauty, abundance, and human flourishing. Poisonous ideas produce ugliness. They destroy and dehumanize. It really is that simple. Welcome to Ideas Have Consequences, the podcast of Disciple Nations Alliance, where we prepare followers of Christ to better understand the true ideas that lead to human flourishing while fighting against poisonous ideas that destroy nations. Join us, and prepare your minds for action!
Ideas Have Consequences
What Were You Saved to Do? | Easter Special
The resurrection of Jesus isn't just a promise of life after death—it's the power to live as we were created to in the Garden. In this Easter conversation, we explore how Christ's victory over the grave restores not only our relationship with God, but also makes possible our original calling to steward creation, pursue justice, and do good in the world.
Too often, Christians see salvation as an escape from judgment rather than an invitation to meaningful participation in God's redemptive work. Let's remember that the Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead now lives in us and can help us live out God's design in every part of our lives, vocations, relationships, and communities.
Main Topics:
- The resurrection as restoration of our original purpose
- How the Holy Spirit empowers us to live out God's design
- Why this world—and what we do in it—deeply matters to God
Join us as we draw from Scripture and real-world examples to unpack what it means that Christ is reconciling all things to Himself and how your everyday actions can reflect the coming Kingdom. From conflict resolution to creativity, your life now carries eternal significance.
- View the transcript, leave comments, and check out recommended resources on the Episode Landing Page!
You know, in evangelicals we're very clear on we're not saved by doing good.
Scott Allen:No, that's right. We know that.
Dwight Vogt:now we made such a big deal. We're not saved by doing good, we're not saved by works, but we are saved, as you said, to do something and we're saved to do good, and that, I think, is really where there's a lot of emptiness in our kind of thinking.
Dwight Vogt:Oh, because we're afraid as soon as we say we're saved to do good. Well, now we're thinking we're safe, we're good people or we're great people, and somehow we're so good that it saves us. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're not saved by doing good. We're saved by the grace of Jesus Christ.
Luke Allen:And because of that he can give us his Holy Spirit to do good. Hi friends, welcome to. Ideas have Consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. Here on this show we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world, to all the nations, but our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God, to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Scott Allen:Welcome again to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. I'm Scott Allen, I'm the president of the DNA and today we are doing our Easter special podcast. I'm really excited to be joined today by my beloved friends. One of them is a friend and a son and co-worker, Dwight Vogt, Luke Allen. Hi you guys.
Dwight Vogt:I'm the co-worker.
Scott Allen:Hey, happy Easter. Happy Easter. We're recording before Easter, so a little bit early, but it's exciting to just even say those words and to reflect on all that this incredible holiday, this time of celebration, means to us and to the church and to the whole world. So we're going to share some thoughts today on what Easter means. We like to kind of do that historically. We've done this in the past. We're going to do it again today in the context of the things that God has put on our heart as far as the mission of the DNA, discipling nations and the impact that we need to be having as a church on our nations. And I'm going to turn it over at this point to Dwight. Dwight's going to take the lead here, beginning to share his reflections on Easter and its relationship to the mission of the DNA, and then Luke will follow and I'll be doing kind of color commentary as we go along today. So, dwight, over to you.
Dwight Vogt:Hey, thanks Scott. Yeah, Easter's a great time. I've got good memories from the past of just enjoying eastern services and family and, uh, I was thinking about it. I'm you know, I'm writing you guys. I'm trying to put together some thoughts for a book here, and this really ties into that, because whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa well we're not going to talk about that till next May. Okay.
Scott Allen:Well, putting some thoughts together for a book I think needs a little bit more unpacking.
Luke Allen:Dwight, if I could, because you're not just putting thoughts together.
Scott Allen:The book is written right, am I correct on that?
Dwight Vogt:Well, no, yes, it's in print, it is, but it isn't. You haven't seen it yet because it's not done and my wife hasn hasn't read it.
Scott Allen:Well, of course, right, but it's in a draft form, but it's written. We're way down the road. This is a very important book.
Dwight Vogt:I'm just bragging on you a little bit, Dwight, Okay well, I'm saying that that thinking has led into, has helped me think about Easter. That's my point here.
Scott Allen:Okay, and the book is about just while you got that About Easter it Easter.
Dwight Vogt:It's about Easter, then ultimately, that's what I'm going to say right now. That's my teaser. Okay, gotcha, and I love Easter and you know, we know, easter Christ was raised from the dead. We are raised with him. These are the themes that we celebrate on Easter morning. We have baptism, which is a symbol of that. We're buried in the water and we're brought out of the water, which is into newness of life, and we're buried in our sin. We're dead into our sin and saved from that. That's a great picture.
Dwight Vogt:We talk about being saved and we're saved from judgment. We're saved from eternal judgment. We're saved from death, eternal death. We know we're saved by grace, we don't have to do anything. We celebrate that and sing lots of songs about it and it's wonderful. And we are saved to something, and usually we say what we most celebrate is we're saved to eternal life, which we interpret as heaven. I interpret as heaven. We're saved to life with Christ forever, the new heaven and the new earth and a place of no sin and no suffering and no pain, no disease, no death.
Scott Allen:No, dandruff.
Dwight Vogt:And no dandruff.
Scott Allen:My old pastor used to always say that no disease, no death, no dandruff.
Dwight Vogt:Well, yeah, I don't struggle with dandruff, but the Old Testament actually has Ezekiel of all things not necessarily my favorite book, but Ezekiel's an interesting book and he talked about being raised from the dead and I want to just read what he wrote Ezekiel 37, and then tie that into what Jesus said and what Isaiah said and just take a couple of minutes to reflect on this. First was Ezekiel was writing when the children of Israel were in Babylon. They were suffering in Babylon because they had failed to carry out God's law in Israel and follow him, and the context of that is, you know, in the DNA we always go back to Genesis 1 and 2.
Dwight Vogt:What was God's design, what was his plan for the world? And he laid it out in Genesis 1 and 2, and it was a beautiful plan. There was a vertical relationship with God that was perfect and beautiful and understood and it was just right. There was a horizontal relationship between Adam and Eve and with all mankind. There was a call it, a vertical down, I don't know a relationship with this earth, the ground we walk on, the ground we stand on and everything about it, all the arts and all the systems and economies. So these perfect relationships were put in place. And then we know the story, which is the reason why we have Easter today is because man fell into sin, man was deceived and all hell broke loose. And then God raises up Israel and says I am going to use you, you as a people, and I am going to show you. You are going to be a light to the nations, you are going to show the world what Genesis 1 and 2 look like, what Adam and Eve were commissioned to live and do, and you are now going to be that picture to the entire world and I'm going to give you my law. So you know who I am. You're going to know how to relate to one another through my law and you're going to know how to relate to this earth through my law. It's going to be beautiful and you're going to trust me and know me, in fact, how to relate to this earth through my law. It's going to be beautiful and you're going to trust me and know me. In fact, I'm going to put my name and my temple with you. I'm going to be with you. He says so.
Dwight Vogt:Here we go and we know the story and they ended up failing miserably and they ended up in Babylon, of all things, you know, in exile. And here Ezekiel's writing and he says this Ezekiel 37. He says, first of all, there's this picture that he gets of these dry bones and they're all dead laying there. And he says Son of man, can these bones live? And this is what the Sovereign Lord says. He says my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them. I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord. When I open your graves and bring you up from them, I will put my spirit in you and you will live and I will settle you in your land. And then, in Ezekiel 36, just behind that, he talks about the same giving of the spirit. I will put my spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. Then you will live in the land that I gave your ancestors, you will be my people and I will be your God. I want to go one step further.
Dwight Vogt:Isaiah was at the same time prophesying when they were in exile. He says For I will pour water on the thirsty land and streams on the dry ground. I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring and my blessing on your descendants. They will spring up. So here's a picture that's looking towards. You can interpret it two ways. One is he's looking towards a physical restoration of the land of Israel at the final coming of Christ. But it's also very clear that it's a looking forward to the new covenant which Christ established when he came and died on the cross and ascended on our behalf, the new covenant that he said something's going to change in my relationship to the world and there's going to be a new way of living with me. So it's looking forward to that new covenant. When he sends his spirit and he says what I like about it. He says I'm going to move you to follow my decrees. So far you've just been struggling on your own. I'm going to actually put my spirit in you. I'm going to move you to obey me and it's going to be great and it's going to be a wonderful relationship and your kids are going to be like I will pour out my spirit on your offspring and they will spring up like grass in a meadow. Here's a picture of land that's flourishing with grass and with trees and the fruitfulness of those trees. And then we jump forward to the new covenant Track with me, guys.
Dwight Vogt:Jesus is standing the week before his death and resurrection. He's standing in the temple on the last day of the great feast and he says this If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him. By this he meant the spirit whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time, the spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. His glorification was his death and his resurrection and, ultimately, his ascension to the throne. And when all of that happened, then we see what happens.
Dwight Vogt:His Spirit is poured out on mankind and we usually say, oh, the Spirit is for. You know, it's a seal for eternal life. It's a seal for new life. It's a seal for eternal life. It's a seal for new life. It's the promise of the gifts of the Spirit, but it's also the presence of God in humanity so that we can live the lives that God called us to live in Genesis 1 and 2. And I just love the idea that we're resurrected.
Dwight Vogt:The resurrection of Christ is a picture of us being given the Spirit of God and we are resurrected from death into a new life, not just saved to eternal life, but we're saved to live the life that God established for Adam and Eve back in Genesis.
Dwight Vogt:And he calls us back to the land, and our land is where we live.
Dwight Vogt:Our land is my vocation, it's my place here in Phoenix, it's the life that God has given me. So he's calling me to live in my land and he's saying I will bless you with my spirit and so you will now have the ability to live in a brand new way that no one in the history of the world has ever lived before, and that's the age we live in. It's called the church age, it's called the new covenant and I think so many times we forget that the resurrection of Christ was not just us getting eternal life, it's us getting the spirit that gives us eternal life, but gives us the life, his life, so that we are empowered to live as he designed us to live and create us to live, which is that genesis one and two picture. And, by the way, eden means delight. He actually created us to, to, to create lives of delight for our families, for our workplace, for our communities. Anyway, it's a great picture and that's this's where my mind's been going at lately, you guys.
Dwight Vogt:It's rattling around all over the place, but those things seem to be coming together for me.
Scott Allen:Dwight, I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about how the picture that you're painting here, the biblical picture, is different from maybe your past experience or your experience that a lot of Christians have when they think about eternal life or the resurrected life.
Dwight Vogt:I think of church last Sunday and we have this wonderful new song we sing. You know I don't know the words, but it's a nice new song, it's really catchy. Something about the grave opened up and I came running free out of the grave and it's like we're no longer. We're no longer judged by sin, we're no longer under sin, we're no longer, you know, I no longer have to worry about being judged and dying, having eternal death, and so we're. We're all excited about freedom, but we really don't talk about what we're saved to.
Dwight Vogt:What do we save to and what's are we are we do we just have the law like Israel had? Are we in the same situation as Israel? That God, I'm going to give you the law now and you're going to obey it. Trust me, you have to obey it. No, he's going to give us the law in our hearts and he's going to give us the spirit to live out that law. And that is the game changer of the resurrection, because Jesus was glorified, and when he was glorified, then he could send his spirit. And that spirit is not just, you know, to speak in. I mean, there's the gift of tongues, there's the gift of the spirit, but this God makes it clear that the spirit is the spirit of wisdom, the spirit of knowledge, the spirit of power, the spirit of counsel, spirit of the fear of the Lord. In fact, jesus said he would delight in the fear of the Lord. So the spirit is an amazing force in our lives for living now that we don't recognize always.
Scott Allen:Yeah, and Dwight, just to add. You know this came out of the passage in Ezekiel. I was listening to you speak about it and it's really struck me that the Spirit here, the Spirit of God, is a Spirit that empowers us to do what is right or to do what is good, to obey the law, you know.
Scott Allen:And you know, I think we like to talk about Jesus and his death and resurrection in terms of saving us from the penalty of the law, that substitutionary atonement, and that's very true. But what we talk about, I think, less, is that not only are we saved from judgment and because of that we can have relationship with God, we can have eternal life, but we're saved to be good you know, and to do good, which know, which we couldn't do before.
Scott Allen:The biggest problem in the world is that people act evil, you know, I think about that famous byline from Google. You know, do no evil, or whatever it was their tagline. You know their motto. And then at some point they changed it because they realized we just can't be good. We just always were doing evil.
Dwight Vogt:So we're such hypocrites here you know, so they change it. And you know, and evangelicals as we are, protestants we're, so we're very clear and we're saved by. We're not saved by doing good.
Scott Allen:No, that's right, we know that down. We got that down, we made such a big deal.
Dwight Vogt:We're not saved by doing good. We're not saved by works.
Scott Allen:But we are saved, as you said, to do something and we're saved to do good, and that, I think, is really where there's a lot of emptiness in our kind of thinking.
Dwight Vogt:Oh, because we're afraid. As soon as we say we're saved to do good, well, now we're thinking we're good people or we're great people, and somehow we're so good that it saves us. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're not saved by doing good, we're saved by the grace of Jesus Christ and because of that, he can give us his Holy Spirit to do good.
Scott Allen:And to put it in really the broadest context, dwight, you talked about Genesis 1 and 2. In Genesis 1 and 2, there was no sin, there was no evil, no death, decay or dandruff as we said. You know I mean these relationships that God established, our relationship to him, to one another, to creation were functioning just as God intended. It was a beautiful place. Then we fell and because of the fall, the rebellion, we became slaves to sin and it wasn't even possible for us to do good, became slaves to sin and it wasn't even possible for us to do good. God then established a plan and he began to unfold a plan of redemption by giving the law choosing a people, choosing a man, Abraham, and a family, his family and
Dwight Vogt:building a nation.
Scott Allen:Basically this is what good, looks like Giving the law, but they couldn't obey it. They didn't have the ability to obey it because of their dark, fallen human hearts and it kept leading them back into slavery. We needed a radical heart change. We needed to be born again. You know, and that's what happened through the culmination of that story, which comes with Christ and the cross, new heart, new spirit and then Pentecost, so that now we can do good. We're never going to still be perfect, there's never going to be Eden, but that's how the story ends, you know, with the second coming. That's the return to Eden and that's where we're going to see a world again without sin, where you know God's will, his law is perfectly obeyed. But back to our present time. We're to live in light of that reality now and bring that in the power of the Spirit, into the world that we live now. Right, that's the part that I think gets a little bit confused.
Dwight Vogt:God created Eden and then man messed it up. God didn't say well, there's never going to be any more Eden. That's not my idea anymore. No more plan for Eden. That's impossible. So forget it. And by the way, just to cut you off, I think a lot of Christians think that way.
Scott Allen:They think that, yeah, everything here that's present, the creation, it's all going to be destroyed, and so it's kind of like, just hang on, just wait until the second coming, or until you die, and then it's going to be fine.
Dwight Vogt:It's this theology of disengagement, and even that verse. There's one verse in 2 Peter that alludes to that and it can be interpreted two ways. One is the world comes under fire as a judgment of fire and it's burned by judgment by fire. But there's other places it says a third of the earth is burned. So there is a judgment by fire, but it doesn't destroy everything necessarily.
Scott Allen:Yeah, I want to come back to that. We can come back. Go ahead, finish your thought there.
Dwight Vogt:Well, and just this idea that God didn't change his mind. He still wants good on this earth and he wants good in our lives. He wants good on this earth and he wants good in our lives. He wants good in our marriages, he wants good in our workplace.
Scott Allen:He wants us to be trees planted by streams of living water that bear fruit in other words, he doesn't want wars, he doesn't want, you know, the trafficking of of women and you know he doesn't want this world, his desire, it's broken I mean even jesus's prayer thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is his will, for earth today is good and it's goodness, and he asks us to be a part of his plan to bring goodness to this earth.
Dwight Vogt:Are we great people? No, are we saved by goodness? No, but that's still his plan and that's why we're here.
Scott Allen:We're brought back to life in order to live in the reality of that now.
Dwight Vogt:Yeah, and you know, will we succeed? Make the world perfect? Nope, but then Jesus didn't either. He was here for three years, did all kinds of good works, but did he make the world perfect? No, he accomplished his task which was given to him.
Scott Allen:What you remind me of, dwight. Anyway, I think it's a yeah, go ahead, finish your thoughts. Sorry, I keep cutting you off.
Dwight Vogt:It's just a fantastic message. It's a fantastic message.
Scott Allen:It brings to mind a verse, one of my favorite verses, in the book of Hebrews. It talks about the great hall of faith and these powerful people down through the ages who have lived, you know, who have lived lives of faithfulness and are honored, you know, in this great section of scripture, and it talks, it concludes that section by saying that they were looking for a better country, a heavenly one. Therefore, god is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. And what I hear you saying, and what I like about this passage, is that these were people that were living in this world, but they were looking towards a better one and they were living in the light of that better one. You know what I'm saying. There was a continuity between this world and that better one. They lived in a larger world and there wasn't this strict separation.
Dwight Vogt:Yeah, I'm thinking of it's almost like you could interpret that to be they had a vision for what life should be. They had a vision for the eternal city for the future, where God was in plan, and with that vision did they just sit on their hands?
Scott Allen:and wait for that to come about.
Dwight Vogt:They said no, with that vision, I will work towards that. I will be involved in that so many times. We think you know there was this great change in the church in the early. Rodney starks talks about all the wonderful thing that the christians did in the first century and you know, healing, saving children and taking care of the sick and this sort of thing and during plagues, and you kind of say, well, they weren't afraid of death. But I also think they had the Spirit of God in them and the Spirit moved them to do good.
Dwight Vogt:Yeah to be.
Scott Allen:They just were moved to do good, to be like Jesus it wasn't just whole and jesus himself, you know, lived this perfect life and laid down his life for the good of others. And they were just doing what he did, you know. They were willing to lay down their lives um so that others could live, and that's super revolutionary, by the way go ahead, yeah I.
Dwight Vogt:I also like the allusion to the land. He brings us back to our land and I've been thinking about my own life because you know it's like I'm going to be retiring soon. You guys know that and you think about well, what's my place in the world? You know what will it be, what's it going to be for the next 20 years? You know who am I, why am I here, and and what I read in these verses, when he calls us back to our land, he has a place for us, he has a land for us, he has a. He has a land for the widow that has orphans in North Korea right now our widow, you know, a widow with three children in North Korea. She has a land for her, that he with three children in North Korea. He has a land for her that she's supposed to take dominion over and she can live a kingdom life in that situation. Is it easy?
Scott Allen:No, Is it hard, very hard? Is it ever going to be perfect on this side of Jesus' return? No, but it doesn't mean there can't be real progress, but the idea that each of us have.
Dwight Vogt:Right, and each of us just have our own land and we're called to our land. And I, and each of us just have our own land and we're called to our land, and I don't have to live yours, you don't have to live mine, but we each have a land and I love that picture.
Scott Allen:Luke, I know you've got some thoughts you want to share too, and maybe this is a good point to bring you in. And how would either you react to what Dwight is saying or what new thoughts would you put on the table for us today?
Luke Allen:Yeah, I don't have many new thoughts, but just to summarize, this is really fun. I'm enjoying this. I remember a few years ago when I grasped this concept of the fuller meaning of Easter. It really opened my eyes to what we're celebrating here and just made this such a more full, beautiful time of year, getting the fuller picture of why Christ came to die to save us for eternity to himself, but also to save us to do something like you guys were talking about, and to save us and then send us his Holy Spirit, the helper. Right. Why is he called the helper? Because he's here to help us to do something you know, there's something here we need help with.
Luke Allen:What is that? What's our mission, what's our purpose? When you were talking, dwight, I loved how you went back to Ezekiel in a talk about Easter, and I love the way that we often go through the full picture of God's story throughout history, from creation to fall, to redemption, easter, consummation at the end of history and it's so helpful to put it in this bigger lens because it just makes sense of the full story right? Francis Schaeffer once said the basic problem with Christians in this country I believe he was talking about America is that they see things in bits and pieces instead of in totals, and I think that's so true. We understand the Easter story, but we don't understand the Easter story beyond. Christ died to save us, to salvation in heaven. We get that. That's a bit, a very important bit, but the whole story there is. He also saved us to do something with the rest of our lives here, and if we miss that, that's a giant issue. That's a giant issue.
Scott Allen:The church is failing to do the work that the church is but God has called the church to do. We're being disobedient, yeah.
Luke Allen:Yeah, and if I could just make this, like, as clear as possible um, I work in marketing, um, I went to school for marketing. The basic sales approach you guys will start recognizing this everywhere once you, once you start looking is um, if you want to sell something to someone, you, you, you show them a pain point in their life and then you agitate that pain point a little bit, make them a little uncomfortable, and then you offer them a solution. You know, like with running shoes, you can see that. You know your shoes are bad, they don't work anymore, agitate the pain. You should buy our shoes, you know, and here in this, if we miss this fuller story of what it means to be a Christian and to live in this born-again life that we've been given to us thanks to Christ's work on the cross, if we fail to see our life and this purpose we have on earth pre-heaven as important and fail to grasp how to live in this life, then the issue there is yeah, like you were saying Dad, christians don't. Like you were saying dad, christians don't make much of an impact.
Luke Allen:We live in cultures that promote and, you know, celebrates evil, and yet there's a ton of Christians, at least in the US right now, there's a lot of so-called Christians, you know, that claim to be Christians, going to church every Sunday, but we see just horrific injustice around us. We see lies that are believed broad scale. We see other countries around the world where there's populations that claim to be 90, 95% Christian and yet in those same countries we see corruption, we see trafficking, we see all these genocide. Yeah, yeah, it's true in the case of uh, some countries.
Luke Allen:Um, so there's a real issue here. The issue is Christ, christians aren't having an impact on the world around them to an extent that will push back against corruption in a real way, that'll push back against those injustices, so on and so forth. So that's a pain point here, and the solution, I think, is what we're trying to present today, is that the Easter story is about Christ's redemption on the cross to save us to himself, so that we can be adopted into his family, but also to do something. To do something, you know, it reminds me of Ephesians.
Scott Allen:2. To empower us to do the mission that he called us to do in the beginning, but we weren't able to. Yeah right, yeah, exactly the big mission the full story, the redemption of all things, as it says in Colossians.
Dwight Vogt:And I think we sideline the work of the Spirit of God in that moving of us to do the right thing. At least I feel that I've lost out on that in my life. I never realized that there is a source of power that God wants to give us in and of himself that we can draw on to do the right thing and have wisdom to do the right thing.
Scott Allen:I do think there's a lot of talk, especially in charismatic circles, about the Spirit, but not in this way and maybe I'm missing it. There's a lot of emphasis on the Holy Spirit, but it's almost more of a kind of a magical type of thing.
Dwight Vogt:It's usually for healing, for tongues, for, yeah, sign gifts which are all right, I'm not saying but, but, but you don't hear in that uh, this the power to do good, you know?
Scott Allen:um, because you're right, I think dwight people get a little bit. They get kind of the heebie-jeebies when you talk that way, because they feel like oh my gosh, you know, you're, you're are you talking about work, salvation, and we're like, no, I'm not. Salvation's already been taken care of, you know, through the perfect work of Jesus Christ and that substitutionary atonement, you know. But we are saved, it says in Ephesians, to do good works which God prepared in advance. Right, that's the part that sometimes we overlook.
Dwight Vogt:Yeah, Exactly, and if you do a study of good works, even in the New Testament, you will find many, many references at the end of chapters written by Paul and others that say why are we here? Why does God sanctify us? Why does he bring us to himself? It's so that we can do good works, that we can be involved in doing good.
Luke Allen:Yeah, I mean back to Ezekiel, the dry bones becoming alive again. When you were talking about that, dwight, at the beginning of this discussion, it was just my brain went straight to what you were just saying, that Ephesians 2, and we all know it. You know, and you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live under the rule of this world, so on and so forth, talking about how we were in sin under the rule of Satan. But in verse 4, we have become. But because of his great love for us, god, who is rich in mercy, has made us alive in Christ, even when we were dead in our transgressions. And it is by grace you have been saved. And God has raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realm in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming age we might show the incompatible riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Jesus Christ.
Luke Allen:And then this part, verse 8, for it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this is not of yourself, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast, for we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works which God has prepared in advance for us to do. So it kind of lays it out there you were dead in your transgressions and sins. Now you've been made alive in Christ To do what To do good works which God has prepared in advance for us to do. And it also throws in there but it's not by your works that you've been saved, so that no man can boast and, by the way, that is the calling of our lives.
Scott Allen:That gives incredible purpose to every Christian life. That's the great adventure. What is that good work that God has prepared? It's different for everyone and it's not just for pastors or big-time church leaders. It's for everyone. Everyone's got an important work to do and I'm convinced that if we all understood that and we all did the work that God has for us to do you leave the scope of that up to Him, right, you leave the scope that up to him that we all did the work that God called for us to do, we would see incredible change in our cities, our families.
Scott Allen:I mean you know we would see incredible change for the good.
Luke Allen:And also, yeah, leaving that up to God's so important, but also just surrendering that to God and just saying I'm here to do good works, which you've prepared in advance for me to do, and I don't care if these seem like important works or if I see the outcome or any of that.
Luke Allen:Um, a lot of times we, we, we go so quickly to I need to see impact and I need to see that my role is important. So of course, we're our our mind's going to go to I need to be a missionary in Africa, and some you know tribe. Or I need to be a pastor, like Billy Graham, you know, and we kind of rank importance, like those guys are so important Christians. That's not up to us to decide.
Scott Allen:That's up to God. And then the same with the impact is.
Luke Allen:That's not up to us to decide.
Scott Allen:That's up to God and he can do what he wants and we may not see the fruit on this side. You know this gets back to the Hebrews passage of looking forward to that, you know, to that better country. You know we're just. Our call is to be faithful now in this present place, as we keep our eyes fixed on that future place.
Dwight Vogt:And you know I had a this morning I had breakfast with a friend and you know thinking about this well, what's what is good? And you know what's our role in this world and world? And and he he was sharing just about a work situation with for himself he's got two, two bosses, both want his attention and time and they're kind of against one another and they're basically both being selfish and they're both being deceptive a bit and they're trying to draw him into one of each of their camps and he's stuck between them. You know, but basically you know. Then the question is well, what's good for somehow he has to do good in that situation. He has to bring expose their, their selfishness and yet call them to to do the right thing. So we're not talking about, you know, major stuff here. We're talking about daily life, doing the right thing, doing things that bring peace between two rivals. You know, in a workplace, in a very big, extremely, you know, productive industry.
Scott Allen:That's a really good point, dwight. Yeah, no, it's, it's again, it's not. God may not call you to be the next billy, but in those daily, everyday circumstances, and I often think, by the way, the hardest place to do this is amongst those that you live the closest with your own family members, the people that you work with. You know that know you the best. This is really where it gets put to the test, you know, in terms of living out faithfully the Christian life.
Dwight Vogt:I think the other reality, too, is that it calls you into suffering Oftentimes if you say okay, God, I want to do what's best in this situation, I want to do what's right, I want to do what brings you glory.
Scott Allen:It invariably, or not always, but it can call you into suffering. Well. Well, it puts you at odds with an evil world.
Dwight Vogt:Right, exactly I mean the evil world isn't going to stand up and give you an ovation for doing good so I mean, we talk a lot about suffering and persecution as if it's just out there, but we, you have to walk into it basically, basically in God's plan.
Scott Allen:Yeah, that's the Hebrew passage again, the hall of faith is because they were willing to be persecuted and face that persecution. Well, if I could guys I don't want to conclude what you're saying I'd love to put a few more thoughts on the table. I think they all kind of build together here. You know, as I was reflecting on Easter, I was thinking about and this Dwight. I want to come back to a point that you made earlier about. I think you talked about fire and a destruction, and you know we were 2 Peter, yeah right.
Scott Allen:Yeah, maybe you could. Could you have that in front of you there? You know we were second Peter.
Dwight Vogt:Yeah, right, yeah, maybe you could. Could you have that in front of you there? Second Peter, three, 10, I'll read it in the ESV it says this but the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved in the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Now they're saying exposed. Maybe I should find one that the King James. What does that verse say?
Luke Allen:Be laid. Bare I see that.
Scott Allen:Yeah, the NIV says laid bare.
Dwight Vogt:Yeah, I learned it in the King James originally.
Luke Allen:The earth and the works in it will not be found.
Dwight Vogt:The King James that I read. The earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Luke Allen:Yeah.
Dwight Vogt:So it's destroyed, opposed to expose and then going on to verse 11, dwight.
Scott Allen:It says since since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of god, and speed it's coming. The day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire and the elements will melt in the heat, but, in keeping with his promise, we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where righteousness dwells. Yeah, I wanted to talk about when we think about death and resurrection, we're talking about something that is being destroyed. In this case, death destroys your body. You know Jesus, when he died on the cross, I mean, his body was utterly destroyed, torn apart and then laid into the grave, you know. And yet on the third day, you know, it rose again. And when the disciples saw the resurrected body, person of Jesus, there was this incredible continuity with his, you know, with what they knew of him from before that time. You know they recognized him as Jesus, they touched him. He had a physical body, he ate fish. You know, he talked to them. There was this incredible continuity. And I was thinking about that because I do think that we, as Christians, what we tend to do is we think of the. You know, when we think of heaven or the kingdom of heaven, we think of it as something that's wholly different. And we read a verse like this and we read how everything here on earth will be utterly destroyed. It'll be just completely wiped out. And what comes after that in heaven will be very different. It'll be clouds and angels with harps and whatever it is. You know, we have this different image of what that's going to be, and I don't think it's a very biblical or clear image. But I want to talk about this word continuity. Even in the Ezekiel passage, Dwight, you see it, you see, I mean it starts with dry bones. I mean these were people that were living, had died, and all that was left were just bones, just dry bones. I mean these were people that were living, had died, and all that was left were just bones, just dry bones. And then the question is Lord, are you able to make these dry bones live again? And he puts flesh back on them and raises them up as living human beings so that they look like they did before they were dry bones. I mean, that's the idea of the resurrection, and I do think it's important for us to see a continuity, you know, I think, yes, there will be a great fire, a great burning, a great shaking at the end of time, but there's going to be a resurrection, not just of our own bodies, but we see it even in other ways that are kind of intriguing. Not just of our own bodies, but we see it even in other ways that are kind of intriguing. It talks about a new heaven and a new earth. There's going to be somehow an earth like this one, but free of all evil, purified of all evil, with God reigning in present, in person. I should say there's going to be dramatic differences. It's going to look like the Garden of Eden again, but it's not going to be wholly different. You see other pictures of it, images of it, I think, when, for example, Darrow talks about this passage a lot, how, when the new—well, first of all Jerusalem itself, the city of Jerusalem.
Scott Allen:I mean, there is the old Jerusalem, the one that we see today, you can go, travel there right now and then there's a new Jerusalem. There's a continuity between the two. Although likely it'll be destroyed and completely burned, There'll be kind of a resurrection, if you will, and we'll see a new Jerusalem and even the passage, again, that Daryl loves to quote. You see it in Isaiah and in Revelation, where the kings of the earth bring the glory and the splendor of the nations into the new Jerusalem as gifts, not unlike the gifts that the Magi brought to Jesus when he came the first time. This is the second time and you see again kings bringing gifts, the glory and the honor of the nations. And, as dear often says, what is that? It's the work that's been done that bring glory and honor to God on this side. That may have been destroyed, but it's been resurrected, if you will, and it's brought into the new Jerusalem Again.
Scott Allen:That is, we're seeing, definitely through a window, darkly, but I think we tend to think as Christians of a discontinuity. You know that it's going to be radically and dramatically different and this world, all that we see around us, is going to be utterly destroyed and never come back. But I don't think that's the picture that the Bible puts forward. I think it does put forward a picture of dramatic destruction, fire shaking, not unlike a death that we experience. This body that I live in is going to die and go into a grave and it's going to be decomposed, but then there's a resurrection and I'm going to be in heaven with a new body that's going to look like this body in some way that I can't fully understand, but it's not going to be dramatically different. There's a continuity.
Scott Allen:I do think this matters. You know, this perspective matters because I often hear Christians say it just doesn't matter, Everything will be destroyed. So what difference does it make what I do here on earth? I think it matters. When we think about the. You know, what does it matter? What I do to my body, for that matter, I can, just doesn't matter, right? It's just a piece of matter, a piece of flesh that's going to get wrecked and destroyed. I just don't think that's the way we ought to think. There's a continuity between the two, and what we do now, in this present time, matters for the future. There's going to be a destruction, but there's going to be a resurrection of our own lives and even possibly more than that. Anyways, I'd love your thoughts or reactions on that, in light of what we're talking about, to you guys.
Dwight Vogt:Yeah, I think that matters a lot, because, first of all, 2 Peter 3.10, 3.11 can actually be interpreted dissolved too, not everything destroyed, but everything dissolved. And when you dissolve something, it boils down to its essence. You see what it really is, and so you'll see the wheat and the tares, you'll see the good and the bad, clearly.
Scott Allen:So I don't think there's a problem, though, even if it means not dissolved but just utterly destroyed. You know, god's able to bring dry bones back to life, right?
Dwight Vogt:Right, but there's a situation what about now? And it bothers. No, it doesn't bother me, it bothers yeah it does bother me. It's like okay, this life doesn't really matter. How I take care of my body doesn't really matter. Well, it matters, if you know, for my own personal selfish interest but, it doesn't matter to God and somehow this life matters a lot.
Dwight Vogt:He put us here for 60, 70, 80 years, whatever we got. But it really matters? Does it just matter so that we can get others into the lifeboat, to get them to heaven? That's why it matters. I don't think so, because the picture that God invested so much time in creating this earth, creating mankind and creating us the way he did so much time in creating this earth, creating mankind and creating us the way he did, and making us in his image, of giving us agency, and and then it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Well, did he change his mind? Cause it mattered in Genesis one and two, horribly, and he matters in the old Testament a lot, so, but now it doesn't matter because we're saved by grace. Why did he change his mind? Now it doesn't matter. Oh, it's all going to be destroyed anyway. So it really doesn't matter. I don't get it. I don't think that's right, yeah.
Luke Allen:Well, it almost feels hypocritical to me. If you have that view and you just think like it's all about getting people into the lifeboat, it's all about saving souls, and it's like. But if you're not living at all in a way that is good, true, beautiful, loving, honorable, just, you know, peaceful, then you kind of look like a hypocrite, don't you Like? If we're not living out this fuller life, doing good deeds, creating beauty in this world, creating order in this world, doing good deeds, creating beauty in this world, creating order in this world, then when an outsider looks at a Christian, they're like well, that's not very attractive.
Dwight Vogt:What are you guys doing there? It's not really helping anybody, as far as I can see, in this world. I'm going to be the advocate here because even there, luke, I'm thinking so don't say it doesn't matter, because you look like a hypocrite. And if you look like a hypocrite then nobody will follow Jesus and nobody will get into the lifeboat. And it reminds me of my dad.
Dwight Vogt:He used to love to take care of his yard and it was the most beautiful yard on the block. And I'd say, dad, that's such a beautiful yard and he goes yes, I hope it's a good testimony so he could invest all that effort into that yard to make it beautiful. But for him the only thing that really matters was does it help people get into the lifeboat? Is it something that will help people follow Jesus, which is probably? I mean, I'm not pushing back completely, but I thought, dad, that yard is good. Just because it's good, you're creating something beautiful. You're creating something that God wanted to be beautiful. He is pleased when he looks at a beautiful yard. It gives him glory that that yard is so beautiful and you worked so hard to make it beautiful.
Dwight Vogt:Yeah, that's a good point, but my dad had to counter it and no, it's got to be a good testimony. That's why I really do it.
Luke Allen:No, it's got to be a good testimony that's, that's why yeah, no, it's true, and because sometimes what we do, that is good and god's sight is seen as evil in the world's sight. So it's not about you know.
Scott Allen:Well, yeah, you can do it for selfish reasons too, so well I think that's a good example of kind of what I'm talking about, too dwight, where I think we tend, especially when it comes to created things you know the landscape yards, whatever it is, you know the landscape yards whatever it is, you know the environment we tend to take a lower view of these things. As Christians, you know they're not as important as spiritual things, heavenly things, and I think we tend to take that lower view. We wouldn't go so far as to say it's unimportant, but we take a lower view of it because we have this idea that it's all going to be destroyed and we don't look beyond that. We don't see the continuity, the new earth, the new heavens, that God values these things. They're not just going to be wiped out and destroyed. He cares about them too much. He loves them.
Scott Allen:There's going to be a continuity between this earth and the next earth. There's going to be dramatic difference. No sin Jesus is going to be dramatic difference. No sin Jesus is going to reign in person. We will worship him face to face, but there's going to be a continuity and that brings greater value to the way that we interact with the creation right now, including your yard, doesn't it? It seems to me that it does anyways.
Scott Allen:If you think it's just not all just a waste of time, because it's all going to be just utterly wiped out. Yeah, you can say things are going to be wiped out. We can say that's coming. You can say this body of mine will go into the grave and decompose. But we can also say, because of Easter, there will be a resurrection.
Luke Allen:So just to dig into this, dad, you're saying, okay, there's new heavens and a new earth. You're saying that there's going to be some kind of familiarity, this continuity between this earth and the earth to come heaven. You're saying that we see through the glass dimly as of now. What is that? Is that in Philippians?
Scott Allen:2 Corinthians, I think it is. Yeah, we see through a glass.
Luke Allen:Yeah, Anyways, but we're seeing, we're still seeing through it. It doesn't say we don't see at all. So so what is this that we're seeing? You know, sometimes when I'm out in the morning skiing on a beautiful sunny day, beautiful weather, blue skies, skiing along through the snow, I'm like, wow, this kind of feels like heaven. Am I going to be able to ski in heaven on a perfectly snow-covered mountain? Is that what you're saying?
Scott Allen:yeah, I, I think so. I, I don't think you're going to be a disembodied spirit floating around in the ether with a harp, you know, singing praise songs to jesus. Um, I think it. I don't. I just think that imagery that we have, or we like to also talk about streets of gold and kind of the prosperity gospel side of it, I guess. But no, I think that there's going to be a continuity between this earth and the earth to come, the new heavens and the new earth, and, yeah, that we will be embodied in the same way that we're embodied right now to interact with this creation in a loving and a stewardship type of way. There's going to be, we're going to have new bodies, resurrected bodies, you know, in order to interact with the physical world around us, including things like skiing, I hope, around us, including things like skiing, I hope so.
Scott Allen:I just want us to reflect a little bit on the continuity. You know that, yes, there can be a destruction, and I think this is what we see. Again, getting back to Easter with Jesus, you know, jesus showed us what the resurrected life body looked like and that there was this continuity, this life after death that was eternal. And so, again, I don't want to say maybe too much more about it, because obviously it's again. We're seeing through a glass, darkly, and none of us. It's like we're looking forward to that country and that world. It's out there but we've never fully lived in it, so we don't know exactly what it's gonna, what it's gonna look like, although we've got enough, I think, of a picture from the scriptures to kind of have some yeah, some thoughts.
Luke Allen:Yeah, I think we can take guesses that are probably not terrible, guesses like we might be able to ski you know, jesus and his resurrected body meets the disciples and cooks them up a fish breakfast you know yeah I bet we're going to be eating really good food in heaven yeah, you know, oh, yeah really good food.
Luke Allen:Uh, you know, we can interact with this world. Adam, in the garden of eden, when it was perfect pre-sin, was working. That's right in heaven we're also going to be working. You know, if you think the, the great cathedrals of europe are beautiful, think about the cathedrals that we might build in heaven. You know, I think we're going to be doing that kind of stuff. So it's a guess, but you know, maybe.
Scott Allen:So how does? Yeah, there's another piece of continuity too that I it comes from the the ephesians, chapter one. I believe that you were reading, luke, that, uh, when we are, you know, we were dead in our trespasses and sins, but we've been made alive. And then it goes on and it says and you've been seated in the heavenly places with Christ Jesus that we're talking about right now, not after you die that there's a continuity even right now, presently, that we are in this kind of heavenly realm, you know. So it gets that line between heaven and earth gets a little blurry sometimes, and I think that's not a bad thing. So go ahead, dwight.
Luke Allen:Yeah.
Dwight Vogt:Yeah, and that's the part yeah.
Dwight Vogt:That's the part I would like to. That's the part that I emphasize in my own life. I don't understand the distance between today and heaven or the end of Revelation. I don't understand that. But in terms of how I live today, I it has to mean something. It has to mean something that I should be working towards Eden in my life today, in my family's life, in my kids' life, in my work life with you guys, that somehow my presence should contribute to Eden on earth, because God invested so much in this earth and he wants at least a picture of it here, a glimpse of it here, and he gave us his spirit to help us do that. So I, just for me, I want to emphasize this life matters and the goodness in this life and the Eden that we create in this life matters.
Scott Allen:Eden meaning the garden. I want to let all of our listeners know that your intention, your heart there, you've been obedient to that and we've been the recipients joyfully Luke and I and others of that of you really living intentionally, faithfully, as a Christian right now in your relationships, including your relationships at work, which is why I do not want you to retire, dwight. I really don't want you to retire, thank you.
Luke Allen:But, iight, I really don't want you to retire, thank you, but I understand, I understand.
Scott Allen:I understand.
Luke Allen:So no, you are very faithful, You've been very faithful and we've been blessed because of that.
Luke Allen:Dwight, I just want to say that yeah, One thing, dwight, that you've clarified for me in such a helpful way. It was funny. I was listening to a podcast we recorded over a year ago now and you had a couple lines where you were explaining the full story of creation, like you did when we started this episode, and it just really helped me clarify the Easter story. And you made the connection between the two ginormous words, one in the Old Testament and one in the New Testament. The one in the Old Testament is everything and the one in the New Testament is all things. We see this description of everything in the creation mandate in Genesis 128, and God gave Adam rulership over everything. We also see that echoed in Psalm 8, I believe it's verse 6.
Scott Allen:Yeah.
Luke Allen:And you put everything under their feet and you made them to rule over the works of your hands and put everything under their feet. Yeah, so in the Old Testament creation mandate we clearly are given the responsibility to rule over everything, but we can't do that as we see in the Old Testament creation mandate, we clearly are given the responsibility to rule over everything, but we can't do that as we see in the Old Testament. We can try, but we can't do that until we have the help of Christ at Easter. And now we see in Colossians 1, 15 through 20, actually verse 19, I guess it is for in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, referring to Jesus and through him, jesus to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace by the blood of the cross. So that's the all things there.
Luke Allen:So in the Old Testament we are given rulership over everything. We just can't rule it well. But in the New Testament we hear that Christ is now reconciling all things to himself on earth and in heaven. And who's he doing that through? Through us. So now, because of Christ's work on the cross, because the Holy Spirit's now in us, now we actually can reconcile all things to God, which is so exciting.
Dwight Vogt:Even that's a little bit of a mystery. It's like well, why didn't he just give the Holy Spirit to Israel immediately? Why did he wait for the atonement when he's actually done the work that makes us free, makes us pure in his eyes, and he didn't do that until Jesus? That's 2,000 years. So poor Israel. But if you go back and look at the work of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, you will see that he shows up and when he does, it's a good day. It's a good day that person does Nebuchadnezzar. No, Pharaoh looked at Daniel and and said this is a man in whom is the spirits of the gods. He didn't know that it was the spirit of god, but it was the spirit.
Dwight Vogt:the holy spirit was in daniel, and look what daniel did yeah, yeah they said that of joseph, said that of the, the craftsman in the temple, throughout the Old Testament. There's these times where even Saul if you look at Saul's life he had three good days, I think, and it was three days where the Spirit came upon him and he was filled with the Spirit, and then he prophesied, he won a mighty battle and he did some important things, and after that he just went crazy and lost his mind, anyway. So why am I saying all that? I? I just it's interesting how the spirit is present from the beginning, but for some reason he is poured out at pentecost and we are the benefactors of that. But do we know it?
Scott Allen:yeah, I think, know, looking back at the Old Testament, in Israel, dwight, I think you know the purpose of God raising up the nation of Israel, as you said, was to be well, and it says in the Moses during the Exodus the whole world is mine. God loves all the nations, but I'm going to raise you up, I'm going to give you my law and my spirit and you are going to be a kingdom of priests. You're going to reveal the truth about God and reality through the way that you live, the way that you worship. You're to be a model nation for the nations that I love. In other words, you've got a purpose in this world. You're not just to sit there and go oh, isn't it nice. I have this very special relationship with God and he doesn't care about anyone else.
Scott Allen:No, and yet I think the church, in other words, they were a missionary people. They had a mission to be that. You know that model nation, that kingdom of priests, and you see that reflected, you know, in beautiful Psalms like Psalm 67. Lord, make your face shine upon us and bless us so that your name, your ways, may be known on this earth, your salvation among all the nations. That's correct, that's the purpose of Israel and yet the church. We can sometimes forget that. You know, god just loves us. He saved us. We can go to church, we can enjoy our holy huddle. No, we are saved for a purpose to be a light, to be salt and light, just in the same way that Israel was. The difference is that we have that power of the Holy Spirit, that resurrected power of the Holy Spirit, fully, in a way that, as you said in the Old Testament, there was just some glimpses of it.
Luke Allen:If we could get a couple examples here. Dwight, I'm looking at you. Yeah, so we've been saved at Easter and because of Christ's work on the cross. Now he is reconciling all things to himself and he's invited us to walk alongside him in reconciling all things to himself, and he's given us the helper to walk alongside us and to help us in that mission. That's what we're here for. We're here to, uh, to tell other people about Jesus and to live out a life that is reconciling all things to himself. Uh, how do we do that? How do we do that in our work, in our family? How do we do that in um, our hobbies and our recreation and what we do for fun? What does this look like practically?
Dwight Vogt:I think I I I'm not alone in this. But I think I'm not alone in this. I think I'm with you guys as well, but one of us just to start the day by saying Lord, I'm a dead man, walking without you, I am a zombie. It's the spirit of God that gives me life, and if you're not with me today, I can do things that will count for nothing, or you can breathe life into my life and those around me through me, because, he says, streams of living waters will actually flow from us. His spirit flows from us to others, and so I don't know how that works. I certainly don't do it great, but that's my prayer. I think you start the day and you start a meeting. We did this, we prayed before this meeting today. That was, you know, invoking God's presence and his spirit in our lives. Go ahead, Scott.
Scott Allen:I think we've already talked about this, luke, you know, it's not limiting the work of God just to a gospel proclamation, as important as that is. Or as a witness, as you were saying, dwight, about your dad, you, important as that is. Or as a witness, as you were saying, dwight, about your dad, you know, but bringing you know. Or just kind of, luke. You mentioned Schaefer's quote, which is very powerful seeing things in bits and pieces rather than in wholes. So we bring it into our daily lives by seeing our lives as a whole.
Scott Allen:Right, and how can I be faithful, how can I do what is right and pleasing to God and good Right now, in the circumstances that he has me in the relationships, the work that he's called me to do, that that's somehow not separate from the mission of God. You know, we often separate these things. You know. Well, family is just a place where I eat food and I can have children or whatever it is, and work is just a place to earn money. But the real work of God is, you know, that work I'm going to do of evangelism or inviting people to church. That's the real mission of God. No, I mean, yeah, that's the work of God, but it's bigger than that, it's a whole. So I think you know we've already covered that ground pretty well.
Luke Allen:Yeah, I remember that. I'm just looking for like specific examples to help. You know, give a little.
Dwight Vogt:I remember when Scott and I met the one of the head designer for the iPad, the.
Luke Allen:Apple iPad. It was such a good story, it was such great yeah, and just how he would.
Dwight Vogt:He would call on God spirit to give him wisdom in solving problems in the development process of that iPad. And I just think of yeah, just in his engineering, you know, and just in excellence Engineering solutions.
Scott Allen:Yeah, it was amazing to hear him talk about how he lived out. You know his faith in a full way, right, not just you know, it wasn't just here.
Scott Allen:I am as an engineer at Apple building the iPad so that I can be a witness to my co-workers. I'm sure he was and that was very important to him, but how can I bring beauty, elegance, excellence into the design of this thing? And then I remember him talking to Dwight about how, you know, he was working with a bunch of non-Christians who were, you know, overachievers in Silicon Valley and they were all kind of competing against each other and there was, all you know, there was all sorts of tribalism and factions and this and that. Right, you know office politics, and he really worked to be a peacemaker and bring groups together. I was just impressed even with that, you know.
Luke Allen:So yeah, he was a really remarkable guy. Yeah, it was a great story.
Scott Allen:It's just a great story.
Luke Allen:Yeah, who said that? Pope John Paul ii? Um, actually I have right here said a faith that does not become a culture, that isn't lived out in the way that you do things around here, is a faith that is not fully accepted, not entirely thought out and not faithfully lived. So if we're, if we're faithfully living out this faith, it will become a culture. It will affect our our workplace culture, like it did for that guy. It will affect our family culture. It will become a culture. It will affect our workplace culture, like it did for that guy.
Luke Allen:It will affect our family culture and it will affect our culture abroad in larger ways. In fact. Just to get on the quote train here, I love that quote, also by NT Wright. I think it's at the beginning of one of our core videos, and it says the gospel is not about how to escape the world. The gospel is that the crucified and risen Christ is the Lord of this world. And it says live this out, create culture and transformed culture, take part in this transforming work that Christ started on the cross and if you go back to Genesis 1 and 2, that transforming work was actually delegated to us.
Dwight Vogt:That was his plan initially that man would rule over heaven and earth. So he's depending on us.
Scott Allen:I know NT Wright can say controversial things and he can be kind of a hot button in evangelical conversations, but he spoke really powerful truth right there. I just think that's such a great place to end our conversation today with the fact that the resurrection Easter means that the transformation can happen in us, the dry bones can be brought back to life, and that we can be a part of God's transforming work. And we've got missions to do. We've got good works that he's prepared in advance for us to do right now. So I'd like to leave our listeners with that important thought Be faithful, Know what those things are, be faithful in doing them. Don't see, don't break the world up into. This is really important. This is less important. See it in terms of holes and continuity more than we do, I think is a good challenge for us today.
Scott Allen:Dwight, thank you for your super wonderful thoughts and, luke, for your great contribution as well today, and I just want to wish all of our listeners a very happy Easter and I hope that it's more meaningful for you as you reflect on some of these important and beautiful truths. This has been another episode of Ideas have Consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance disciple nations like this.
