Ideas Have Consequences
Worldviews shape communities, influence politics, steer economics, set social norms, and ultimately affect the well-being of both your life and your nation. Obedience to the Great Commission involves replacing false ideas with biblical truth. Together with the help of friends, our mission is to demonstrate that only biblical truth leads to flourishing lives, families, societies, and nations. This show explores the intersection of faith and culture, aiming to address pressing societal issues through a biblical lens. Ideas Have Consequences is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance.
Ideas Have Consequences
Can Society Fall as Churches Grow? | Pastor Teo Hayashi
Episode Summary:
What if revival isn’t measured by packed worship nights, but by reformed schools, honest businesses, and just cities?
Pastor Teo Hayashi joins us from Brazil to challenge the Church’s narrow vision of success and call us back to the gospel of the Kingdom.
We explore why social ills keep rising even as churches multiply, tracing how the divide between Sunday faith and Monday life has hollowed out our mission. We unpack how Christian dualism and fundamentalism’s retreat from society over the last century has left believers unsure how to shape culture. Teo’s challenge: recover a Kingdom vision that trains disciples for every area of life—from classrooms to studios, from startups to city halls.
We hope this episode is a wake-up call for the global church. When God’s people abandon their civic and cultural calling, others will always fill the void. If we are seeing true revival beginning around us, it will reform society from the inside out.
If you long for a bold Christianity that redeems culture, this conversation offers a roadmap.
Who is Disciple Nations Alliance (DNA)? Since 1997, DNA’s mission has been to equip followers of Jesus around the globe with a biblical worldview, empowering them to build flourishing families, communities, and nations. 👉 https://disciplenations.org/
🎙️Featured Speaker:
Teófilo Hayashi is the founder of Dunamis Movement, a revival-focused ministry spread across over 400 university campuses worldwide. Teo has traveled to over 40 nations preaching the Gospel and seeing the miraculous power of God reaching people from all different walks of life. Teo and his wife Junia have four kids, and are also the senior leaders of Zion Church, a multi-campus church that has impacted not only Brasil but the nations. Teo holds degrees in psychology and theology and is the author of various books.
📌 Recommended Links
👉 Teo’s New Book in Portuguese: The Trigger
👉 Instagram @teohayashi or @dunamismovement (Portuguese)
👉 The Teo Hayashi Podcast (English)
👉 Scott's Newest Book: 10 Words to Heal Our Broken World by Scott Allen
💻 Follow Us:
📲Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/disciplenations
📸Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/disciplenations
📽️YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/DiscipleNationsAlliance/
📩 Ask us anything: info@disciplenations.org
Unfortunately, they are doing discipleship better than most of the church. We have taken Christianity for granted, and even non-Christians have taken the fruit of a Christian worldview that's been sown into our culture and our society for granted, but it's run out of steam.
Teo:The inactivity of the church is filled with terrorism or progressive agendas or socialist agendas.
Darrow:God's Guinness said God has his people where he wants them. The problem is they're not being his people where they are.
Luke:Join us on today's episode as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God. Hi guys, my name is Luke Allen, and I'm joined today by my dad and co-host Scott Allen. And we just got off an excellent podcast with a returning guest, I think it was his third time on now, Pastor Teo Hayashi from down in Brazil. And we're also joined by our co-host Darrow Miller for a really engaging and dynamic discussion where we really just honed in on the mission of this podcast, which is it's awesome because Pastor Teo Hayashi really shares the same passion as we do to, again, not just go and spread the gospel around the world to all the nations, which is absolutely critical as a starting point for any Christians, but then to go beyond that to work to transform our cultures to increasingly reflect God's kingdom. So that was the heart of today's discussion. And we were really honing into this particular cultural moment that we live in, talking about the urgency of this moment, talking about um the parallels between what's going on in the West and what's going on in Brazil today, and how there's this real sense amongst the church around the world of the growing darkness and the need for Christians to really disciple our nations right now at this moment. So, Dad, would you mind giving us a quick little idea of where this discussion uh went today uh before we hop on the interview with Pastor Haashi?
Scott:Yeah, for sure, Luke. Thanks. Yeah. Exciting discussion. Great to have Pastor Teo back on the podcast. He, for those of you who don't know, he's he's a very influential uh pastor, not just in Brazil. He's got a maybe the largest Protestant church in Brazil, in Sao Paulo, multi-site church. Uh he's a speaker, a writer, uh, but he has influence here in the United States. He studied at Liberty University, knows many of our leading pastors, evangelical pastors here in the United States, uh, and around the world. Um, where we connect with him is because we're so like-minded on the mission of the church. He really has a passion to see the church recover a vision and a mission and a method of discipleship that helps its congregation to know what it means to disciple nations, to really bring the truth, the goodness, and the beauty of God's kingdom into every area of society. He brings a passion to that, and you're going to hear that today on the podcast for his own nation, Brazil, which is in crisis. Um, and he'll talk a little bit about what's happening in the nation of Brazil, um, both politically and socioeconomically. Um, we're in a crisis in the United States throughout the West. Brazil is in a crisis, but that creates an opportunity for the church right now to recover this older mission of discipling nations because of the urgency that everyone feels for it. And he's going to talk a little bit about that. Um, he's doing a sermon series right now called Occupy Till I Come, based on Christ's parable of the talents. It's really important parable. And that's very, that's the same basic uh message that Darrow, who joined us today, has been teaching for many years. In fact, he has a session that has the same name, Occupy Till I Come, with the idea that the church, God's people, are the God has empowered them, given them talents, not just to sit around until he comes back, but to occupy, to push back the darkness with the light in every area, every sector, with this idea that you know, somebody is going to be shaping and influencing those areas. Uh, as our pastor at Eastmont last yesterday said, it's zero sum. Um, there is no neutrality here between darkness and light. Uh, somebody is going to be shaping. And we need to be shaping, we need to be proactive in that today. So we talked quite a bit about how we can be, how we, the church, those of us who have this vision, what we can do at this critical moment of revival and change in the Western church to see that vision re-established. And so much of our conversation focused around that today.
Luke:Yeah, exactly. So without further ado, let's hop on to the recording here with uh Pastor Te Hayashi.
Scott:Well, we're thrilled today to have back with us again a friend of the podcast and the ministry, Pastor Te Hayashi. Um Pastor Teo, it's great to see you again. I'm so glad you could come back.
Teo:Hey, Scott, uh so good to see you, hear you. And uh what an honor to be here with you, Luke and uh Daryl Miller. What an inspiration. Thank you for having me on.
Scott:Yeah, it's great, great. And Darrow, it's great to have you on as well with Luke. Um, yeah, just for those of you who missed our earlier podcasts, uh, just a quick introduction. Uh, Pastor Hayashi is the founder of the Dunamis Movement. It's a revival-based or focused ministry spread across 400 university campuses worldwide. Um Pastor Teo is also the lead pastor of Zion Church in Sao Paulo, Brazil, which is a multi-campus church that uh has impact and influence not only in Brazil, but across the nations of the world. Um Pastor Teo uh is an interesting man himself. Uh he has a ethnic background that is Japanese, but has been born and raised in um well, is born, is that right? Were you born in Brazil? Yeah.
Teo:I I was I am born in Brazil. Yes, yes, I was.
Scott:Oh, yeah. Ethnic, ethnically Japanese, born in Brazil, educated at least in part in the United States. So I know you you kind of have deep influence in those three countries. Yes. But uh yeah, you've traveled to more than 40 nations across the world preaching and uh working to mobilize, especially young people into mission. I'm so grateful for that. And uh you've really seen the power of God at work uh with people in all sorts of different walks of life. Uh Pastor Tao holds degrees in psychology and theology, and he's author of uh numerous books, including a recent book called The Trigger, and maybe we can hear a little bit more about that. He and his wife uh Hunia are the proud parents of four children. So great to have you back again with us, Pastor Tao.
Teo:Thank you for having me. What an honor. Uh it's yeah, I'm always listening to ideas have consequences, and uh it's kind of weird uh since I've been here the last time I was driving, and then it just kind of pops up in my car, and then there I there I was talking to you guys. I'm like, this is weird. I guess I'll have a new one coming up now.
Scott:No, we we so appreciate you know having you on and just your partnership and ministry. I I wanted to go back to last time you were with us, which was, I think it was about a year ago. Um, you were also helping promote my recent book, 10 Words to Heal Our Broken World. And at that time, you were really talking about your passion, your calling, the sense of calling that God put on your heart to help the church, evangelical, Bible-believing church around the world and Brazil especially, uh, to recapture uh an older and more correct understanding of what the heck her mission is uh beyond just saving souls and planting churches to discipling nations, to really having a profound influence on shaping nations and the culture of nations in ways that align with biblical truth. I just wanted to pick that up with you, Pastor Teo. Um what what what have you been doing? What have you been seeing in that direction since we spoke last? Do you do you feel like that vision is is becoming more of a reality with churches in Brazil or around the world? Um what what are you what's your sense of where we stand right now?
Teo:Yeah, that that's very good. I um well I do think that unfortunately, um as we face the challenges that we do face in society, um, and there are so many, uh even as I'm speaking to you right now, um this past week in Rio de Janeiro, uh and I'm talking to you, this is November, uh November third, uh October twenty-eighth, um the police department in Rio de Janeiro uh pulled up an operation to go against the narco-terrorists, and that actually in one day resulted in a hundred and twenty-one deaths, uh being that four of them were police officers. And uh and then again, these aren't just regular police. I'm talking the elite squad, I'm talking uh heavily armed AR-15s. And uh the sad thing about it is um when we watch the news and hear about the cartels in Mexico, uh I don't think Brazil is too far off from that right now. And I think we're in an imminent threat of becoming anarcho state, and uh that is something that any pastor in Brazil that's doing any relevant work in his community uh won't be able to deny or go ahead and become indifferent to this. Um it's something that's touching everybody in society, and and and it goes from Brazilia, our capital, uh, all the way down. It's systemic poverty uh systemic corruption that leads into to this social issue that of course uh perpetuates systemic poverty. So uh it is in other ways a systemic injustice. So I would say that um I actually began last or yesterday, uh this is a Monday, so y yesterday, Sunday, we began throughout the month of November our new preaching series at our church at Zion, and uh it's called Occupy Until He Comes, based off of Luke 19. And so I talk about the the the parable of the the 10 minus and and how uh the servant is actually or mean the master is actually uh has expectations. He has an expectation of of of bear bearing fruit and being a good steward of of what he placed in our hands. And so I poised this question to our church, understanding also that our our services are streamed, and I believe other people would actually uh hear that. I said, somewhere in your analytical mind, somewhere in your critical thinking brain, you will have to face the fact that the numbers of evangelicals in Brazil only increase while the social ills increase as well. We have to question what is the gospel that we've been preaching. So when we go back to talking about discipling nations, unfortunately, I think it takes certain social injustices to be so blatant to awaken to awaken a church that is so numb and and and only thinking about our key PI is how many baptisms, which I'm all for, how many people saved, which I'm all for. But why don't we add other key pis to to see how many business people are we raising up, how many social activists are we raising up, how many educators are we raising up, how many psych psychologists are we are we raising up, and so forth, artists and and and and whatnot. So uh I think that Brazil is in desperate need of um the teachings of discipline nations, and unfortunately, it takes trauma to wake some of the the the body of Christ to to this reality that the gospel of the kingdom already holds in itself the remedy of what we see in society. Um so yes, we we still need it, and I wouldn't say just Brazil, I would say uh the nations in general, uh the more that I've been traveling. Uh I see it as uh you know we've been planting churches in Europe right now, specifically southern Europe. So I'm talking about the Iberian Peninsula, Italy, and now Greece. Uh we see the crisis of immigration there and the threat of this Islamic invasion. And I'm saying, again, we have to go back to preaching the gospel that Jesus preached. He preached the gospel of the kingdom. Let's not let's not err on imitating, with all due respect, the Western Church, uh, which has sent us so many missionaries and and has brought us the the gospel, but in the last years, uh all we think about is church attendance or how much came in in tithes and offerings or or or how many campuses were planted, which I'm all for. Uh, but it has to be more. So sorry, I think uh I touched a few things here.
Darrow:Not at the sake of the gospel of the kingdom. Exactly. That's what you're saying.
Teo:Exactly. That's what I'm saying.
Darrow:And uh oh man, we got so much to talk about. The uh you're seeing in our country right now because of Charlie Kirk, Charlie Kirk was assassinated precisely because he was speaking the truth in love, speaking about justice, freedom, the foundations that you need for a free society. And the enemies of a free society hated that. And that's why he was assassinated. And that's part of why you see Europe spiraling down, North America spiraling down, because if we were filled with Charlie Kirks, our nations would be very different. Or if we even had a level of leadership that was Charlie Kirk, we'd be a very different nation. Europe would be very different. So there's a whole lot to engage with here, Tao, Pastor Taylor.
Teo:Yeah, you don't have to call me Pastor. You can just call me Taylor, that's fine. Okay, thank you, Tao. Yes, thank you.
Scott:No, I feel your uh yeah, your sense of crisis. You you you put it in the terms of of kind of narco-terrorism in Brazil, and I know Brazil faces all sorts of challenges. Um I think that's exactly the same case here in the United States. You know, we we have taken Christianity for granted, and even non-Christians have taken the fruit of a Christian worldview that's been sown into our culture and our society for granted. But it's run out of steam. You know, Oz Guinness talks about it as a cut flower, you know, at some point that flower is cut off from the Bible, that civilization or culture, and it still looks like it's a thriving flower, but at some point it just dies. And I think that we've hit that point at this point. And it has kind of created a crisis because I mean Daryl mentioned Charlie Kirk's assassination. I think the thing that surprises me is even in the United States, just how many people celebrate that, you know, are willing to be violent, um, pick up guns, kill, do whatever. We used to take for granted that people wouldn't would be offended by murder and violence. Well, that's the fruit of a biblical worldview. We cannot take those things for granted anymore. People are happy to kill, you know, if that's what it means to gain power. Um and so I think we are in a crisis. And I I but on the positive side, like you're saying, that that's a time for us that believe in this vision, isn't it, Pastor Teo? To really be active and strategic, we've gotta recover, right? This this vision of the of the gospel of the kingdom, of discipling of the discipling and influencing of nations. Uh you know, how good is it if lots of people come to Christ and are in churches if your country devolves into anarcherrorist state? You know, is how can that be honoring to God, right? Yeah.
Teo:So well see, one of the things that I've I've kind of s heard so much as a as a trend in the media right now with the situation that's happening here in Brazil. And I would actually say it it was very similar to what happened in Colombia or even to uh El Salvador, uh pre-Bukele days. Um and then you could actually put this principle also into nations that are having uh terrorist sales that are coming up, is uh whether they be um Islamic terrorists or narco-terrorists, they come in where uh the state is is not going. And so they become a parallel power to the state. Now, um we see that and we hear that in the news, and that's seen as something uh uh as an explanation to why they're they exist. Yet we also hear something that has not been um said in the news that the church reaches where the state does not reach. So what I'm trying to get at is you will go to places in Brazil, in the uh and you know, I'm talking in the jungles of the Amazon, you will go to places in remote Asia, South Asia, and you will find churches there. You will find churches in Africa and places where the state will not reach. So we are looking at um the absence and the vacuum that the state allows that breeds narco-terrorists or terrorists, but we're ignoring the fact that, hey, we also have the power as the church to be this parallel power that they're trying to explain as the reason for narco-terrorism or Islamic or whatever terrorists and so jihadists. And so I'm saying that once the church wakes up to the power it actually has, uh, the power that um the Lord Jesus gave us in the Great Commission with the mandate of the Great Commission, um, I believe that we we we understand that unfortunately they are doing discipleship better than most of the church. And and um and and discipleship will happen. And and then also, um, let me stop this this thinking here and go back. We haven't even questioned what is the state supposed to do, uh, as if the state should cover the whole nation. No, it it it it was never the government was never made by God to cover the whole nation. There are certain jurisdictions that government should not come into. And so I think that the vacuum of the church in those jurisdictions breeds space for you know these other horrible things that are actually coming about in our society with uh narco-terrorism or or jihadists or or whatnot. And so I think that the church needs to awaken to if they're their discipling, we should be discipling there. We should be the parallel power or the parallel uh a parallel power to the state.
Scott:Explain that a little bit more. Uh well, and then Dara, hold that thought, but I want to just have you clarify that a little bit more. When you talk about parallel powers and jurisdictions, can you explain that a little bit more? Because I'm I'm sure even many of our listeners are maybe wanting to know some some deeper thoughts or examples of what you're talking about there.
Teo:Yes, uh I I love well when I look at Jesus and when I look at when he's with his disciples and uh the terminology he uses, uh apostolos in Greek, that where we get apostles, ecclesia where we get church from, um the concept of where two or three are gathered in my name. I mean, these are our Roman uh uh um principles, uh the ecclesia as the assembly, um the apostolos as the cultural officers, uh the the ability of Roman citizens to hold decisions where two or three are gathered in Caesar's name. And so there are a lot of things that we see in the first century church that were actually, I would say, in in a very honoring way, um maybe captured or um held hostage by Jesus from the society or the time where he was alive in, and in the the way that the Romans uh thought, is it was as if Jesus was saying, um, if Caesar has his apostles, I'll have my apostles. If they if if if Rome has their ecclesia, I'll have my ecclesia. And I have a kingdom, and this kingdom is not of its world, it's not a physical kingdom, it's not a it's not a uh uh earthly city, it's a dynamic power over heaven and earth, all things visible and invisible. And so the kingdom always was a parallel power to uh what we experience here on earth. It was heaven on earth coming coming down, and and and so I I see that in the since the inception of the church, we are called to be this power. Yet we've been educated in our universities to think that the state should be. Exactly. And so we create vacuums, and then the vacuums at the expense of the what would I call it, the the inactivate uh the inactivity of the church is filled with passivity of the church, with the passivity of the church is filled then, is is uh is is filled with terrorism or uh progressive agendas or uh socialist agendas, etc. Exactly.
Scott:Well, I think I think one example that I often cite is that you know God gives authority, you know, that he has he there's there's spheres of authority. A lot of this comes from Abraham Kuiper, but I think it comes straight from the Bible. You know, God gives authority, for example, parents have authority to educate their children. That is not only authority but responsibility to disciple and to educate their children. If parents don't understand that, if they're not discipled in that, uh they'll neglect that responsibility and they'll hand that over to the state, right? And so the state will then educate the children. And the state's happy to kind of, like you say, come in and fill all of these vacuums of authority where the church actually has authority or or God's people have authority, but we've neglected it. So I I that's just one example I have to think of. Darrell, you you had a question, I think. I'm sorry.
Darrow:In an earlier uh book, Oz Guinness said, God had God has his people where he wants them. The problem is they're not being his people where they are. Wow. And a few minutes ago you said, yes, in our churches we have doctors and lawyers and school teachers and engineers and homemakers. Yes, we do. And where are they? They are all over the city and they're in the home, yes. But if they're dualistic, then they're not infecting the culture the way the kingdom is to infect the culture. That's good. And this is a critical thing, as you're saying with pastors and the younger pastors. Uh they need to teach the whole council of God and not this uh passive sacred secular divide. Yes. No, it's an active church, it's engaged in shaping culture, totally different concept than what we have as a church today.
Teo:Yes, yes. I think I think you just mentioned something that I would say is probably the the nerve right there, uh, which is the dualistic mindset. And um that that's the mindset that conditions us to, as you've made uh reference to Oz Guinness, uh they're there, they're in society. They're they're the um the leaven inside the doll, but they're not making the doll grow or the leavening or they're not fermenting the growth the dough. So I mean they're there, they're in our school system, they're in our health systems, they're in government. Uh, but if we don't go against the dualist mentality from the pulpits, I I think that um that's the key thing. It's it's that sacred and secular divide. Uh we go to church, that's sacred. Uh crippling us. Yeah. Monday morning, I go back to secular lifestyle.
Darrow:And that's where we as a DNA, and I think you know this because we've been engaging for a while, we use, we're trying to use language to get a paradigm shift. So it's not just the Sunday church, it's the Monday church.
Speaker:That's it.
Darrow:How do we how do we speak of the Monday church that gets Christians to say, what? I know the Sunday church. I go to church on Sunday. What do you mean, the Monday church? Oh, well, that's you on Monday in the marketplace in the public square. And to use that language uh to help people have a paradigm shift and say, Oh, I've never thought that way before.
Scott:It's a profound that's what's a profound paradigm shift. And like we were saying last time we spoke, Pastor Hayashi, it's still it's not in any way the dominant paradigm. It used to be, you know, if you go back a couple hundred years, but we lost it. And um the recovery of this is again, it's not a simple thing because it's been taught for so long, you know, that the mission of the church isn't really to disciple nations, you know, it is to save souls, plant churches, and you know, we have kind of this negative view of nations and cultures that's gonna go from bad to worse, and why bother? And it's just a waste of time and it's a distraction and things like that. So to to make to make this shift in paradigm, I do feel like the conditions are right for it. And especially like, you know, with the people that you're working with, the younger people, I think there's a hunger for this. But the question is, how do we do it? How do we what do we do strategically at this moment to to bring that about, to bring that so that it's taught from the pulpit and it's taught in the seminary, and this becomes the dominant understanding of of mission uh for churches and for individual Christians.
Teo:Yes, I I would love to well bring my two cents to this uh question, but even as before I jump into this, I would love to also understand from you um where do you see that the church lost it? Because you just mentioned this, uh Scott, that 200 years ago, this was something that was being um you know preached, promoted in our churches, uh the gospel of the kingdom. Uh people did not think uh dualistically, they they they thought holistically about their faith. Is is there something about uh um maybe a something happening, or was there something in church history that shifted the needle that made us go only partial gospel, uh only gospel of salvation, not gospel of the kingdom, or go to a dualistic mindset? Yes.
Darrow:One of the major factors, I think, was the rise of Darwinism.
Teo:Okay.
Darrow:Because before Darwin, people assumed there was a God. They assumed the Bible was true, whether they were Christians or not. Those things were reality. Darwin came along, gave a theory on how you could have life on earth without a God. And the church said we don't have an an we don't have a good, reasonable, rational answer for that. They did, but they were lazy. Yeah, I think it's stuck their heads in the sand.
Scott:To add on to what Darrow's saying, I think this history is so vital, we have to understand it right now, and it's it it has to be understood. You know, it it's a deep history, so there's a lot to it. I don't mean to oversimplify it, and Darrow's put his finger on part of it there with Darwin. I think I'm just actually reading a book of history to my teenage daughter right now as part of her class, and uh literally yesterday we were reading about what in the United States, right around the turn of the century, between 1800 and 1900, you had what was called the progressive era. In the United States, and the United States has shaped the church around the world, so our experience is important. You you you know, we were born out of this Protestant, you know, uh reformed kind of uh mindset and culture that that came with the Puritans and that established our universities and most of our institutions in a very positive way. But around the turn of the century, um you saw a shift in the church where they be they lost um the doctrine of of uh of human depravity and sin. They began to see people as uh perfectible, and they still had this kind of dark or this uh idea that we can and they they basically came up with the idea that became known as the social gospel. We can bring the kingdom of heaven here on earth now through kind of enlightened social programs and government programs and re uh different kinds of reforms. Some of the things they did were good, uh, but but what they lost was they lost this kind of what I would call the inside out, you know, uh approach to bringing the kingdom. It has to start inside of human beings in their hearts. The fallen heart has to be changed. Uh, has to be, you know, that we have to have an inward renovation before we can have a societal renovation. That got lost. So much of liberalism in the in the 20th century was this kind of Christianity without the Bible and without God and without salvation. In reaction to that, you had a movement grow up called the fundamental. Movement, they said, okay, listen, we've got to hold on to these really important doctrines like the doctrine of original sin and salvation through the blood of Christ and the inerrancy of Scripture, Biola University, a lot of the great, you know, uh 20th century Christian movements kind of came out of this fundamentalism. But what they let go of was they let go of culture and society because that's what these progressive, you know, social gospel people were involved in. And they said, you know, let's let's stop doing that. Let's focus on getting people saved, getting them into church. Culture is kind of a secular thing that social gospel people focus on. All that to say, I do think we're at a tipping point historically right now, where we can kind of write the ship that, you know, there's this pendulum that's been swinging. But I feel like now's the time to come back to that earlier vision. I really do feel like we could do it by, you know, all of all of it's dependent on God. But where we we we don't have this kind of uh you know, humanistic-centered kind of reform, kingdom of God, social gospel movement, nor do we have just this narrow, dualistic, just get people saved and into the church and you know, into heaven. But we have we we we we recover the old biblical idea of people sh need to be born again, that's how you enter the kingdom, and then they have to be faithful, living out the kingdom in all areas, so that nations are influenced by these powerful biblical truths, uh you know, uh of human dignity and justice and you name it. So that's the hope, anyways, right now. And I think that history is is it's so vital. We can't understand how to act unless we understand that history a little bit, I think.
Teo:Yeah. So that that's that's really good, uh Scott. Thank you. Um and thank you, Daryl. I think going back even to what your question was, how do we go about the the how of it? I think um, you know, I'm I'm reminded I I won't be able to quote it uh verbatim, but basically Charles Finney saying if we see corruption in our uh in our congress in our congress halls, the pulpit is to be held response responsible for. And he goes on to say if we see uh um deceit being preached inside our school system, the pulpit is to be uh held responsible for. And so I I really believe it begins in the pulpit. Um uh Dr. Scott McKnight uh with his quote, you know, the pulpit will shape our communities. Um uh it's it's it's a powerful truth.
Scott:And so I feel like the pulpit is the steward of God's word, you know. I mean, that's and that's the the power of God Himself to change people and cultures, exactly.
Teo:Yeah, and and I've I don't I haven't been here, and that's why that's what attracted me to um ideas have consequences, uh DNA. It's like I'm I'm looking at society, my church, my community, my city, uh the people that the Lord has given me to steward, to lead, to serve, and I'm looking around saying, Um, these other people that I used to listen to, they're not helping me bring answers, or even the books that I was reading, they're not helping me. I mean, it's there's truth to this, but it's not touching the heartfelt needs. And I want something not um not in a way that it it's I'm only feeding uh their needs, but actually gives them a perspective long term. And so I feel uh definitely the pulpit, that's that would be my main how is raising up a new generation of people that are actually preaching the gospel of the kingdom and unpacking that and wrestling with these issues. Um and so I I think that whether that be in the global south, whether that be in the Western world, uh I think that we need to talk. And actually, as we're on the subject, you know, I I am so encouraged by everything that I see on social media of what God is doing in terms of awakening a new generation, Gen Z in America, awakening Gen Z in the UK, and and I celebrate that. I mean, that is so encouraging. Uh, yet at the same time, I'm I'm thinking, um, what is the definition of revival? Because I feel like it's being thrown out very quickly. This is revival. And I'm thinking, yes, I love it. But we need to ask the question, what's next? And I don't think we're asking that question.
Scott:No, it and Darry, you've said this really profoundly. Revival has to result in a reformation of culture. You know, if it's doesn't, it's not a true revival. And that just isn't going to happen unless there's a vision for that and there's discipleship in that. So this is the urgency I feel because it seems like God is working in a kind of a powerful way, bringing young people, especially you mentioned Gen Z, into you know, in to faith. Um, they need to be discipled in this holistic uh understanding of what it means to be a Christian, not the dualistic one. That's the urgency I feel. So, and I I know you feel that too. Pastor Tao, we've we've just got to wrap it up because we we've got just uh a really short time with you, unfortunately, today. I just want to commend you for the work that you're doing and your vision, though. And I just look forward to seeing how God may continue to work in your ministry and and with our ministries. Luke and Darrow, any final questions that you have or or comments before we say goodbye to Pastor Taylor?
Luke:I just want to say thanks for joining us again. I really, really enjoyed this conversation. Uh, really appreciate the time every time you come on, and we have a lot to think about. We'll probably have to do a post-show discussion amongst the three of us just to digest what we just talked about. So I really appreciate it. I love being here.
Teo:Thank you for thank you for having me, Luke.
Darrow:Yeah. I'm just very thankful for you and uh for your work, your ministry, your vision, and just that we can engage this way. I know we learn a lot from you, and hopefully some of the things we share will you know feed into what you're doing and encourage you. So thank you.
Teo:Thank you, Darryl. Um, you you are an inspiration to me. Thank you so much. Uh, and I don't think I've ever mentioned this to you, but um even as um I spent a year in Kona, Hawaii, with uh close to Lauren Cunningham, uh, he would bring up your name quite a bit. And uh he says, you should pick up some of his books. It will bring language to your your angst. I was a little angsty. So thank you. Good.
Darrow:You're welcome. Um hopefully this new book will give you some furthered language for sure. For sure. Thank you.
Scott:Pastor Taylor, how can people get a hold of your ministry, learn more about you and your new book? Um, the title of which is The Trigger. It's uh you're looking at people that God has used to trigger reformation movements, revivals and reformation movements in nations like William Wilberforce. So, how do people get a hold of you and your resources? Yeah.
Teo:Well, for for the English uh speaking uh public, I have uh an Instagram that people could actually uh find out a little bit of what we've been doing at uh the teohayashi. And uh for the Portuguese uh speaking public, I have at Teo Hayashi. And uh the book is called Ugachilo in Portuguese, which means uh the trigger. And uh it's in Portuguese as of now, but very soon uh we've been talking about uh a new release with uh with the English speaking uh with an English publishing house. So uh when that comes on uh or comes out, I would love to talk about it with you guys.
Scott:That'd be great. Well, listen, thank you so much, and uh we look forward to being back together again with you in the meantime. God go with you and use you and bless you uh as you share this important vision with pastors in in your large, very large circle of influence in the name of Jesus. Amen.
Teo:Amen. Thank you very much.
Scott:Well, that was great. What a what a blessing to be back together with Pastor Hayashi. We're just going to do a bit of an after show with uh Darrow and Luke and myself here just to kind of wrap up and get some final thoughts. Um I Luke, I I'd love to hear from you. You were you I I think Darrow and I kind of dominated that discussion. What were what were your thoughts uh as we as we kind of engaged there with Pastor Hayashi?
Luke:Yeah, I mean I'm just even though a lot of the discussions going on today are pretty um pretty negative when it when we're looking at the lay of the land around the world, um, this cultural moment is definitely dark. Um but yeah, I'm always reminded I just think of the analogy that comes into my head is when you know it's the evening and it's going from dusk to nighttime. And when it's dusk and it's kind of still light out, you don't really notice the street lights. And then when it gets dark, you notice how brightly they're shining. And that's kind of what it feels like today in the world, is it's definitely getting darker in the world. Yeah, it's getting darker in Brazil, Europe, the US. Um, just it seems like the enemy is on the advance. And yet as that as it gets darker, the light is only gonna shine brighter. And the global church is only gonna have the the opportunity to shine brighter if we if we will take this moment and really step into um our role at this time in this place. So when you look at it that way, it's it's kind of an exciting and it and a hopeful time, encouraging. Like the light is shining bright right now, and it's very noticeable. Uh, and it's especially noticeable again where it's the darkest. Um, so I can you know kind of reverse psychology there, but uh I'm I'm excited to see what's gonna happen right now. It's a fascinating time to be alive. And Darrow, I think your book, which we haven't really started talking about much yet on the show, is gonna be well positioned for this time. Um I don't know if we should share the title yet, but it's the basic premises, understanding the times and the seasons, like the the men of Issachar. And uh as people who are positioned for the times and the seasons, people who don't have a dualistic worldview, who are ready to be active in culture, uh bringing the gospel of salvation, leading to the gospel of the kingdom. Um, it is gonna be a very exciting time to be alive. So I I had a lot of hope from the discussion. You know, he was talking about a lot of dark things happening and tragic things happening in Brazil right now, but I think there's there's an opportunity here, as he was alluding to when we wrapped up the discussion. Darrow, I can tell you wanna you want to say something.
Darrow:Yeah, uh my pastor yesterday said something, and Pastor Teo said something today that mimicked what our pastor yesterday said. And it's the other dimension. Things are dark here. But the kingdom is real, and Christ is come. It's not just that he has come in the past, he is, as Isaac Watts' hymn, Christmas hymn, Joy to the World, Jesus. Christ is come. Christ transcends time. He came into history and entered time, but when he died and went to heaven, he didn't leave here. His presence is here. And the pastor yesterday at church, she was talking about All Souls Day. And he reminded us all that when you die, your body and soul are separated, and your body goes into the grave and it's dead. It will be resurrected someday. But your soul, you are still alive. That is the nature of the kingdom of God. You you might physically die, but you don't die, and I think that's what uh Teo, Pastor Tao, was saying today, or alluding to with his words, that the kingdom is come. And this is a moment for a breakthrough. And we need to we need to pray that it will be a breakthrough. It can't just be a revival, like churches have revivals, they plan a revival, they do what needs to be done to have a revival. But a true revival will be followed by a reformation. And if there's no change in people's behavior, and if there's no change in the culture, it wasn't a true revival. It was just an emotional experience. And I think the darkness of the day creates an opportunity, like you were illustrating, the lights of the city will come on and they're beautiful. And they're all so the darkness of the day creates an opportunity for the kingdom is come, Christ is come to break through at this moment in history. And I think we need to pray for it and we need to work for it, not just to encourage emotions and a revival, a revival spirit, but to do the hard work that needs to be done to relaying the groundwork of the scriptures to be the foundation for nations. So the nations are not founded on wokeism, they're not founded on animism, they're not founded on atheism. That's what they're founded on today, and that's why the world is so broken. They need to be founded and rooted and grounded in the scripture again, and the understanding that Christ is come.
Scott:Yeah, I think the word for me today was just this sense of urgency. I was hearing it from him and I was feeling it as we were talking, and an urgency in a couple of ways. One was an urgency brought on by the times, Luke, the darkening that you're talking about. And it's not just that you know that we're seeing a shift at the level of culture between Judeo-Christian theism and you know, woke cultural Marxism. It's that these new ideologies, as they take root and take over, you know, the different institutions of our culture, they will destroy it. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't just go on and keep going on. At some point, it you know, it ends up in a place very similar to North Korea. It's destroyed. And so we don't have unlimited time. There's an urgency there. I think the other sense of urgency, the hope is that, like you say, the lights are coming on. There is a people are coming to Christ. There's no doubt about it. Um but the urgency there is the recovery of this vision of the kingdom, this understanding of what it means to be a Christian, what it means to be faithful, to live a faithful Christian life in the world. That has to be recovered. That's not part of our our meaning, the broader evangelical understanding of mission and discipleship. So we have the minority report on that, you know, that discipleship is much larger. It's the the kingdom vision is larger, it's got to result in a reformation of culture and society. Somehow we've got work to do, and I just trust God in that, you know, but I really am looking and hoping and praying that that God can work through people like Pastor Hayashi, the DNA, and others to see a a change. Right now is there's an urgency to that.
Luke:So yeah, and uh an interesting thing about the urgency too is uh one of the big discussions going on in the US right now is around Islam, which he he mentioned as well in Europe more so. But you're seeing these these very strange alliances being made in the world today. And if you just look at them at face value, you're like, why in the world is the the the woke ideology making alliances with you know radical Islam? They got a common enemy that's and it exactly, and they have a common enemy period. So there's these there's these these it's it's like the the battle pieces are being set and there's these alliances being formed outside of the church, and you know, a little scary, um, but it is very interesting that they see they see so clearly who their enemy is, and they see so clearly the power of the church to transform nations almost better than we do.
Scott:I thought it's I don't have thought it's interesting, Luke. You're right. The the the enemies of the gospel, you know, I think often of like the uh the the the like people like George Soros, these really wealthy funders of of woe cultural Marxism in the United States, they're they see or or you could even think of the uh Chinese Communist Party, they see the threat of the church way better than the church sees itself as a threat to the They are demonic. Trevor Burrus, but but but they see the church as a threat in a way that we don't, you know.
Darrow:Trevor Burrus No, I know. They do. But they are functioning as instruments of the demonic. That's how bad it is. It's not just, oh, these are sinners, these are bad people, they have bad thoughts. No, they are out to destroy the Western world. That's what they're out to do, whether it's the jihadis or the Soroses. They want to bring down the Western world, they have to destroy the Judeo-Christian roots of Western civilization, and they've pulled out all the stocks. And you can't be passive, you can't have your head in the sand, and it's not enough just to have a spiritual revival. You have to, as uh Teo was saying, have to be proactive.
Scott:Yeah.
Darrow:And engage.
Luke:That was one of the sections I thought was the most interesting when he was talking about the idea of parallel powers. Um, would you get what'd you guys think about that? I I hadn't heard that before.
Darrow:That's what I was when I first started talking about what my pastor said yesterday. Right. And there's there are parallel powers. This is not just theology. It's not just ideas have consequences. There is the demonic. The kingdom of lighting of darkness, evil, the kingdom, the evil, and the good. These are real. They're and they're not just categories. They are different categories, but there's a spiritual reality behind them. And I think what he was saying. There's the the demonic and the kingdom of darkness and evil.
Scott:And there is this, you know, he was talking about his sermon series, Darrow, which is interesting that he used Occupy Till I Come, because that's been one of your kind of key keynote talks over the years, really powerful talk from the same parallel parable parable.
Darrow:There's two chapters in the book on that parable. Yes, in your new book. I was just, oh well, he's preaching on, oh wow. Well, that's I wrote two, you know, God, God is working in his heart, and before all this started, God was working in my heart to develop this book. I have uh I say that. I'm not I don't think I'm being super spiritual. I just say I was under compulsion to write this book. And now we look at where we are, and all of a sudden Charlie Kirk is a why was Kirk assassinated?
Scott:You know, he was he was occupying in the sense that he was going onto college campuses, he was pushing back dark in dark places with the light he was occupying. And I think that's what Pastor Teo was saying. If the church doesn't do that, there's no neutrality. It is zero sum. The darkness is going to take over those places, right?
Darrow:I mean, it's as it's and it has. Look at our institutions today. Yeah, it's the darkness has taken over our universities. Why do you think all these university students are pouring out of the universities from the river to the sea? That's darkness.
Scott:Yeah, yeah. So it's it's kind of recovering this understanding that we're in this war, that it has a cultural dimension. I know that, Derek, you always talk about it. It manifests itself in culture. People, Christians still like, oh, you're just a culture warrior, blah, blah, blah. You know, listen, this is we're not talking about culture warring as you understand it. We're talking about a battle between good and evil, light and dark. That yes, it is manifesting itself in culture, and we've got to be engaged. If we're not, if we're passive, or if we are not willing, then it will become dark. It will become dark, and we'll largely be held to account for that, you know, because we we gave it up, so to speak. And that's the parable of the talent. Yeah, Luke, what do you think of what Darrow and I are saying in terms of explaining explaining what he was trying to get at there? Because maybe we're misunderstanding him. I think that's what he was getting at, though.
Luke:It's interesting. I've I already shared this quote because um on that episode where we're talking about uh Charlie Kirk's um martyrdom. But uh I think Elon Musk saw it clearer than most church leaders. Um and that was his quote. I think he said it during the memorial service for Kirk. And he said Charlie Kirk was I'm paraphrasing, but Charlie Kirk was murdered by the darkness for sharing the light. That's right. And he saw it so clearly. It's really interesting coming from a non-Christian, but he saw it so clearly. He sees the parallel powers, he sees the the battle beneath the culture war. There's a battle beneath the culture war, and that's what a lot of Christians I don't think are realize. And that's really what we're talking about. That's what we've been talking about the last few episodes. I think that the episode we did with Nancy Pearcy a few weeks ago, we really had a lot of people.
Darrow:And there's a battle above the culture wars, it's the spiritual battle in the heavenlies that is bringing the battle at the cultural level that is now bringing it to the civil level. We are on the verge of civil war because the on the cultural level, the darkness is winning on the cultural level. And now you have these, just look at what's going on. That's one of the things I said in the book. The coming civil war, that phrase has just gone up like this in the last 20 years in terms of language usage in the United States. Why? Because people are sensing it.
Scott:Yeah, I think it I think it's I think we the moment we're living in is the cut flower moment in the sense that you know the we we used to be able to take for granted that we all could kind of, whether we're Christian or not, we all shared the same basic set of values. The value for human life, that we, you know, we don't commit murder or whatever. You know, the justice system needs to be blind, and you know, that uh, you know, it it needs to be, you know, you can't weaponize justice or whatever it is. We all have no longer, okay, that that that's the that's the cut flower time. Now people have no sense of those older biblical ideas left, and they're operating from an entirely unbiblical, cut off from the Bible kind of sense of the world that we live in. That's the time we're in, and yeah, that's the tension behind this you know, talk of civil wars. You you know, how do you live together when you are just functioning from such completely now? We don't have that shared basis, Christian or not. No, we don't.
Darrow:So we don't have shared language, shared basis.
Scott:Now, of course, that can change, and it is changing. You're seeing non-Christians like Elon Musk say, I want to be part of the light. Okay, that's he's moving in the direction of Jesus Christ. I hope he comes all the way, you know, and we're seeing many others, and we're seeing many people come to Christ. God is the author of history, nothing is written, so to speak, right? Um, you know, God's gonna unfold we have an active part to play.
Darrow:We have an active part to play. Will there be a civil war?
Scott:I'm not saying it is written. No, I'm not saying that. But if conditions don't change, that's where we're gonna be, yeah, you know, for sure.
Darrow:It was Lincoln who said there at the time of the Civil War, it cannot stand divided.
Scott:A nation divided can't be.
Darrow:It will have to be all of one or all of the other, not divided.
Luke:Well, he's quoting what is that in Matthew when when Lincoln said that. Where is where is that? That's a verse. But yeah.
Darrow:But he he talked about that in relationship to the coming civil war that was gonna happen in the United States because there was a division on the level of culture. And you have the culture of slavery where people own people and use them as tools. That was a culture, and a culture, no, we're all made in the image of God. People are not for sale, they're not tools. Two totally different cultures, creating two different kinds of people.
Scott:And you don't compromise between there's no compromise. One side has to win and one side has to lose when you're dealing with something like that, right?
Darrow:And you have people today on a political level who are thinking more shallow, hoping for compromise and saying we just need to get together to compromise. That's a nice thought. But that's all it is, because on the worldview level, the division is so great.
Scott:I think you're seeing it with you know in the wake of the Charlie Kirk assassination, where you've got people scandalized by the fact that people are out there celebrating that violence. You know, you can't compromise between an approach that says, no, it's okay to pick up arms and kill people, and an approach that says, no, that's that's not what we do, you know. Uh that's right. Well, listen, um, Luke and Darrow, this has been really great. Great discussion. And uh I think I'm so happy and grateful that we have people like Teo Hayashi and many, many others around the world that are pushing in the you know, they've got their they're on their co-yoked. We're pushing together in the same yoke, and God is in the lead, and we're following his lead, you know, on all of this. So I'm incredibly hopeful, but uh boy, there's I feel a sense of urgency too. So thank you guys. Yep. Thanks, thanks, thanks, Daryl, thanks, Luke, thanks for, and thanks, thanks again for tuning in to another episode of Ideas Have Consequences. All of you who tune in so faithfully, and we're so grateful for you.
