Poverty Isn’t a Money Problem | Arturo Cuba

Episode Summary:
What if we’ve been approaching poverty from the wrong angle? In this episode, I’m joined by Arturo Cuba, who has spent decades in Latin America tackling the deeper roots of poverty. Together, we rethink the idea that poverty is just a lack of money or that more generosity will fix it. We explore how mindsets, priorities, and worldviews hold people back. Arturo shares how a biblical worldview addresses poverty’s root causes and why money alone, without heart change, often makes things worse. We dive into issues like homelessness, family breakdown, and the deeper spiritual roots of poverty. In the end, we challenge the Church to live out what we teach and offer practical steps for each of us. If you’re ready to rethink poverty, this conversation is for you.

 

Who is Disciple Nations Alliance (DNA)? Since 1997, DNA’s mission has been to equip followers of Jesus around the globe with a biblical worldview, empowering them to build flourishing families, communities, and nations. 👉 https://disciplenations.org/

🎙️Featured Speaker:
From his teaching experience with rural pastors and farmers in Latin America, Arturo brings encouraging insight for every person in every culture. Arturo Cuba is one of the Disciple Nation Alliance’s earliest and most influential trainers. He has creatively discipled people in the biblical worldview in Latin America for over 20 years.

📌 Resources:
     👉 Recommended Podcast: 31 Days of Worldview Wisdom with Arturo Cuba
     👉 Recommended Episode: The Church has the Answerers: Poverty, UBI, Homelessness, and AI jobs | Ena Richards
     👉 Recommended Teaching: The Development Ethic: Hope for a Culture of Poverty
     👉 Recommended Book: The Power of Truth to Transform Culture by Darrow Miller

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📩 Ask us anything: info@disciplenations.org

Episode Webpage

Transcript

Episode Setup

Luke Allen 0:00

Hi friends, welcome or welcome back to Ideas Have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. As Christians, our mission is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. However, our mission also involves working to transform our cultures so that they increasingly reflect the truth, goodness, and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission today. And most Christians are having little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God. Hi guys, my name is Luke Allen. I am the producer of this podcast. So glad to have you all of you guys joining us today for another episode. I'm also joined today by my dad, Scott Allen, and our host. Hey Dad, how are you doing today? Hey, Luke, it's great to be back. Yep, it's great to be here. We just hopped off a discussion with uh one of my favorite people to talk to in the DNA circles, uh, our Trocuba. And we had um, it was a great discussion, over an hour, talking about just really for us the bread and butter of what makes the Disciple Nations Alliance a Disciple Nations Alliance, and that is um addressing poverty from a biblical worldview perspective. Um we love ideas here on ideas have consequences, and we love worldview. That's what we talk about every week. Uh and the reason we're so passionate about that is because um since the DNA's founding back in the nineties, um the we we've been able to see in really clear and powerful ways that biblical truths bring about biblical prosperity. Biblical truths, when applied to things like poverty, to real physical poverty in third world developing nations, help communities rise out of poverty, and we've seen that uh in really clear, tangible ways. Uh and it's undeniable to see just the power of ideas when you see that th those kind of uh testimonies, that type of transformation. And as such, we're super excited about ideas and the power of world views, and uh that's why with this podcast and with the DNA in more recent years we're trying to reach uh more nations around the world um uh addressing more topics than uh poverty of physical poverty, but addressing trying to address all areas of life because we can believe just like those those communities that we've seen rise out of poverty because of the power of biblical truth. Um, biblical truth can apply to other areas of life as well. And again, biblical truth produces biblical prosperity. That's what our guest said in today's recording and says all the times. Uh Dad, just as as as we come away from this discussion, what were you some of your what were what were some of your highlights?

Scott Allen 2:41

Well, this was a great talk to get just uh get us back to this issue of poverty and human development, community development, um, and thinking about it from the standpoint of the Bible and biblical principles. Um Arturo, because he's got so much personal experience in that, um, is just a perfect person to talk to. And I'm I'm I'm uh you know, I I feel like Christians need to still there's a lot of room for growth and development here. I think a lot of times Christians think, right, you know, we need to be generous, we need to be open-handed, all of those are true and biblical. But to really bring about change when it comes to this issue of poverty in our communities and in our families, it's gonna require more than just transfers of money or wealth and things like that. We have to come back to some basics. And that's what Arturo did it in a really powerful way. I think for me, one of the uh most potent kind of takeaways was just uh w towards the end when we got talking about the uh God's design for family, and uh you know, we don't often connect family and poverty, but uh when we follow God's design for family, um it's almost always the most basic prerequisite for helping people come out of poverty. And you know, the negative way of saying that is when families break down, uh you know, it's almost always going to result in at poverty in poverty at all sorts of different levels. So you you know you just have to kind of take that into consideration. What are you going to do to strengthen families in a community where there's poverty?

Luke Allen 4:20

Yeah, I I love that about the episode is there was a very, very clear takeaway at the end of the discussion on here's what we can each each one of us do when it comes to addressing poverty. And it's always nice to have those takeaways. I just a couple quotes that uh I'm I wrote down during our discussion that I'm sure everyone can pinpoint as they're listening through this one today is that uh we were talking about poverty and and a lot of people think poverty is merely the definition of poverty is a lack of money. Um Arturo said poverty is a trap in the mind. That's the definition of poverty. And that really opens up what poverty looks like. Uh later on we were talking about um how to teach these things, how to teach biblical worldview, and he was talking about how you should never teach anything that you don't live out. I thought that was that was a important thing to remember. And then as we're wrapping up, he we were we kept pressing him on um the the poverty that we're seeing increasing, it seems like, uh in the US and in other nations. He's he's from Bri Bolivia, he's worked throughout Latin America, so he is he's coming from a different context, so it's always eat interesting to hear people's uh perspectives coming from other places looking at the US. Uh, and we were like, what's the solution, what's the problem, what started this? And he was he said, um, these problems always come down to the destruction of the family. Always come down to the destruction of the family. I thought that was a powerful sentence. Um and that kind of led into our our takeaways at the end of the discussion. So anyways, guys, uh great discussion. I hope all of you guys enjoy this one and are able to take away as much as I did uh from this. And uh so without further ado, let's uh let's hop into it.

Scott Allen 6:02

Arturo, it's so good to have you back on the podcast again. Hello. You know, for those of you who uh follow the DNA closely, we have done uh an entire podcast series a couple of years ago with Arturo. We consider him to be um not just a longtime friend of the ministry, uh going all the way back to the beginning, but um really one of the pre I would say premier kind of thinkers and teachers on the subject of biblical worldview um in the world. Uh Arturo, you were uh um our the speaker at our DNA Global Forum in um in Ethiopia a few years back, and I know that I'd heard from so many people how helpful they were that was to them, just sharpening their thinking. And um anyways, so I we we consider Arturo a dear friend. Uh he for um his ministry really is to spend time with pastors in his home country of Bolivia, um, discipling and training and teaching them to think and to function from a biblical worldview in a way of bringing about positive change in their families and in the communities and nations. Arturo, do you want to add anything to that in terms of just what you're working on right now?

Arturo Cuba 7:22

Well, no, it's exactly as as you said. Uh lately I've been involved with um churches and and seeing a lot of people that I have come in touch in the past that they are growing in the idea of biblical worldview and seeing that this needs much more input. I mean, everything has changed, and we have much more books, and and the idea of biblical worldview is becoming current in a sense. I mean, things got that political issues in the country and things like that are working for good on this, and Christians are are being forced in a way to think beyond you know their comfort zone. And they have to think about uh political issues, uh family issues, loss, sexuality, and and any generation is is is raising up. I mean they they have new challenges that all pastors uh you know never thought they were going to encounter with, you know. And but now people see that we need to be serious about this. And lately I've been invited by uh a university here that has a uh theology program, and it's been quite interesting to see how much interest interest uh was in in people attending it to those uh forums, and we talk about politics and the role of the church in society, and it was it was quite encouraging, you know. But although those things, you know, uh progress according to what the Lord really wants to to do, so we have to be patient too.

Scott Allen 9:16

Well, you've been so faithful in in sowing the seeds and tending the growth of the way that people, Christians in Bolivia, and really are you know beyond Bolivia, but have been able to kind of expand their understanding of their faith um as something that isn't just merely a message of salvation, personal salvation, as central as that is, but is really is a comprehensive worldview that uh helps them to make sense of of everything, politics included. Um today we wanted to to focus in a little bit on the issue of and I you're very familiar with this, Arturo. In fact, I think your thinking on this is is um well it's been tested in real life application, but just poverty and development. Um I know it's a it's a subject you're probably wondering why are we coming back to that? We talk about that all the time, but I do I do feel like for a lot of Christians, especially a lot of people who probably listen to our podcast, it's still an area that um I uh even for people that think in a kind of a worldviewish way, they haven't yet, in my in my sense, uh developed a kind of a biblical theology or a clearer set of biblical principles and thinking about how do we engage with the poor in our community in a way that really brings about help. I'm just kind of constantly surprised by um how little uh kind of thought people have put into that. So we wanted to come back to that. But before we do, just for um listeners Arthur that are new to the podcast, um if you could just tell us a little bit about your story and how you first encountered um um Christianity as a worldview and what kind of change that brought about in your life, in your in your calling, in your ministry.

Arturo Cuba 11:11

Yeah. You know, uh it is interesting to see that uh we Latin Americans we have our own, let's say, background, mostly Catholic, and it's really, really distant from the background you have in North America or in Europe. So although we we are Christians, we read the same books and we read the same Bible, it in many, many ways and profound ways, we don't think the same way, you know. We think we do, but that's not true. That's not true. We are very much influenced by our background, yes, historical background, and that's that's the idea of worldview. I mean, we are you know carrying a worldview, and although we are new creatures, as the Bible says, you know, believers in Christ, passionate if you want, but our minds uh never change, you know, at the level of perceiving reality as you know, uh the way the Lord wants us to do.

Scott Allen 12:26

I mean, you know, what I hear you saying, Arturo, is just we're so deeply shaped by the prevailing culture of the society that we live in or we've grown up in. And that doesn't automatically just shift once we become a Christian, like all of those ideas and assumptions just you know uh go away and we have a whole new set. It doesn't really work that way.

Arturo Cuba 12:48

Well, you know, for me, that was the greatest discovery of my life, you know, to think that look, my mind was cheating on me all this time. I mean, I ne I never knew it. I never knew that my mind had been driving my life in a way that I didn't know even my my Christian convictions uh were determined, you know, by the framework that was there for a long, long time. And and although I went to Bible school and I was very much involved in the ministry and reading books and all that, nothing could uh set me free from that uh background, you know, until the day I met Darrow, and Darrow explained me some things, and it was just like atomic bomb. You know? Exactly.

Scott Allen 13:42

I mean was it, Arthur? Remind uh me and our listeners what that was, if you could just take us back to that moment.

Arturo Cuba 13:50

Well, you know, I was a typical uh evangelical, Latin American evangelical, very dualistic. I mean, I I was very much uh convinced that we all had to uh devote our time to spiritual things, praying, preaching, evangelizing, you know, going to church, and you know, not taking care about the rest of the things of life like um studies or the professional life or even family, you know, because we you know we're heading heaven. I mean, we we are about to leave, uh, and we are very much uh um you know fan of the uh rapture um theology and all that. It was it was but it was it was fantastic, you know, because we had a beautiful time. I mean, it was a revival, but um on the other hand, we didn't have much uh wisdom on where we were going, what we were doing finally, you know. But I mean, and it was basically the same thing for many years, and um and I thought there was nothing more to learn. I went to Bible school thinking that after that I would become a traditional pastor, and and to continue what many other people have had done, you know, as an example, until uh I I met Darrow. I mean, I went to work for uh to for Food for the Hungry in Guatemala, and I had to pick up Darrow and other people from Nicaragua and to drive them to Guatemala. And one of those days uh we were uh in Tegucigalpa, I think in Nicaragua, and uh and um we were we were having dinner and we all were in the same table, you know, and um uh we were just chatting, eating, and Darrow had uh a guest in another table, but they were very close to me, you know. And uh I don't know who was this person, this guest, but uh he was not interested in Darrow's ideas at all. I mean he decided to ignore him in the most respectful, uh disrespectful way, and and that called my attention, you know, and Darrow was just explaining things that I was surprised. I mean, Darrow was explaining how uh the biblical worldview transformed the world, the reformation, and all these things, and it was the first time in my life that I heard something like that, and I was very much interested in that conversation, you know. And this man finished his meal, he stood up and even he didn't even say uh thank you, and he left, just just like that. And Darrow was just uh you know sitting by himself, you know, in this concerning situation. And I said, no, this is my this is my chance. So I jumped up and went and sit uh with in front of Darrow and said, Darrow, I I I heard everything you you just said, and and and and I can't believe I never heard anything like that. And can you finish your conversation with me? And he was very happy. I mean, we began to talk about um all the things he was explaining about the biblical world, you know that. And you know, I it was for me like being born again. I never thought that Christianity was so powerful, so transforming, so incredibly, let's say, you know, glorious in the sense of seeing God, you know, transforming lives, nations, and and you know, and and and seeing the gospel as God's instrument, you know, to bring you from darkness to a light that can produce transformation in your culture, in your country, in your society. That that was really a revolution. I mean, I think it was a God's moment for me for because everything changed from that moment on. I mean, my life and the the way I saw reality was totally different. I mean, I was a new man from that moment on, you know. So I didn't know what to do with all all the things I learned, but but I knew that there was a new path in front of me, you know.

When Leaders Ask Hard Questions

Luke Allen 18:41

Hmm. Uh I was I was listening to you share your story, the same story um here earlier today, and I I remember how you were sharing how just before you met Darrow, the reason you were so curious and what Darrow was sharing about how the the practical implications of our of of Christianity on societies and on the real impact that it has on peoples and education and uh economics and so on and so forth. The reason you were so interested in that is because you had a discussion not too long before that with a mayor of the city that you were you were working in at that time, who challenged you on uh who challenged you as you know a young revival enthusiast on how the real world implications, I guess, of your beliefs on on the society. Could you fill us in on a little bit of that story as well? I thought that was interesting.

Arturo Cuba 19:36

You know, it's it's it's really interesting how in the in the idea of worldview, I mean a worldview lets you see things, but at the same time makes you blind for other things. And you don't you don't re you don't realize that. I mean, I was a we were evangelicals very much interested in you know in getting people saved and transformed by the gospel and all that, but we we had no idea about the rest of life. And and we were invited for a dinner. I mean, when I when I say we, I'm talking about the leaders of the church, there was this lady who became a believer and she wasn't on fire. She really was on fire, and she she she wanted everything, you know, from from the Lord, and and she said, Look, why don't you come to um to my house? I will invite you for a dinner. And what I want you to talk to my husband. My husband will never go into an evangelical church. And we said, Okay, let's go. And she made a wonderful dinner, a wonderful dinner. She was a fine lady. Uh and she put a wonderful table in front of us, and and there was her husband. Her husband was a gentleman, and happened to be a diputado, I mean a kind of congressman, and a very important man. And while he he was very gentle, he was very a good, you know, um uh host, and he, while we were talking with him, you know, and and coming into a deeper conversation, he began to ask, uh, what can Christianity do about education? And we were so dualistic, you know, that we said, look, I mean the gospel has to do with uh you know saving your soul, and you know, forgiving your sins, uh you know, taking you to heaven has nothing to do with uh with education. I can't believe I'm saying it. And those guys who were with me, I mean the leaders of the church, they were so smart, they intelligent people, they read the Bible all day long, and and we all agree on on that type. of answers and the same thing was with politics it's the same thing was with uh health and and all those issues that you know concerns a politician and in the end we we we couldn't convince him about what we wanted to but uh when the when the when we finished the dinner i was I was going home and and I said you know when we were young we had this uh shirts Christian shirts and in the back it said Jesus is the answer you know and and I said Lord and that came to my mind and I said Lord this man has made so many questions why can we answer that I know we are right but those questions are valid you know they are they are real questions so I couldn't save that and and and I forget the the the you know the moment but you know when when I came to the idea of uh biblical worldview then I realized this and I said yeah of course we were good believers with good intentions most of us on fire wanting to take Christ everywhere but had no biblical uh worldview means you cannot win much.

Scott Allen 23:31

Well that's really powerful Arturo and what I hear you saying is you know you're before that aha that paradigm shift that you experienced like a lot of Christians um you were very committed and on fire for the Lord and you wanted to see your unbelieving neighbors saved which is wonderful and um and you were even seeing revival um but for you Christianity the Bible it was really a message of personal salvation the aha was when you realize that it wasn't only that let's just say it certainly is that but it's not only that it is a comprehensive worldview that makes sense of everything all that exists and therefore it applies to every area of culture. There's principles from the Bible about who God is and what does it mean to be a human being and um where is history going and how do we engage with this world there's principles from the scripture that address everything economics education and that was the that when you when you came to see that and then you that was a like you say it was kind of being born again you know it was such a powerful transformation and put you on a a new road a road to discover right discover what those you know how does the Bible address a subject like education just for example you know how does it look differently if we're approaching it biblically um so am I hearing you right?

Arturo Cuba 25:12

Is that kind of you know but an experience like that leaves you with more questions than answers. Yes. So I came out of that conversation and I said wow this is too big I mean where where should I start you know from it's it's uh I have to learn about this and and and and I said Darryl could you teach me about this? And Daryl said yeah of course that that's why they I I get paid in food for the hungry you know to teach other people to to learn about these things and uh you know the first time I met Darryl it was at the uh um Scottsdale uh office yeah Scottsdale Arizona right in Arizona yeah and um and you know uh Darrow never mentioned anything it was a very casual conversation for almost an hour I think and we just got to know each other and and you know and I asked him uh many years later and I said Darryl why didn't you talk to me about biblical warview at that moment and he said you know I was uh in a very um you know frustrating moment I mean nobody uh heard me you know I I couldn't teach anyone and so it was a kind of of um moment when I was like protesting you know about my situation to God and so I decided not to say anything to anyone and uh you know and uh and it is funny you know because I was uh you know some months later you know I mean everything changed for me and and uh and we became great friends from that and and he he became my mentor and and in many ways we we had a very intense uh you know sharing of ideas and things like that but it was it was wonderful.

Why Money Alone Fails

Scott Allen 27:11

So good. Arthur we wanted to drill down on you know we were talking about how the Bible and a biblical worldview affects the way we think about everything and every area of our life including our marriage and family in every area. We wanted to today just kind of focus in on one particular area that you're very familiar with poverty and development. You worked for I don't know how how many years was it that you worked in the highlands of of Guatemala six years. Six years and yeah I and of course your work with the poor you know extends beyond this as well but but this particular chapter in your life where you and your wife Patricia were living in the highlands of Guatemala is one of the poorest places in the world in um in certainly in the Western hemisphere um and you are working with indigenous people there the um the uh pocum tree I believe is the name of the of the tr of the group the indigenous people group that are that are there um and um they are subsistence farmers um you know corn is their staple um and you are trying to bring about a change from utter poverty high infant mortality I mean again this is just really devastatingly poor uh you know poverty so I I share all that context and you can certainly fill in more about that but um I I I was listening to a um a an apologist um you know a well-known Christian apologist here in the United States uh recently and he was giving a wonderful defense of the Bible um and kind of how we need to think biblically and defend um you know a biblical view of things over and against other ideologies. But he said something towards the end uh you know the person that he was talking to he said when we as we're growing in our faith you know then we get to a point where you know we need to go out and just give all of our money to the poor and really try to bring about change um in our community in our society by just you know just being as generous as we can and giving our money to the poor and I mean a part of my when I heard that I thought well I appreciate his heart but I also my other my other thought when I heard him say that was just how shallow our thinking is biblically even amongst a really thoughtful guy like this who thinks a lot about the Bible you know when he gets on an issue like poverty his first thought is our response as Christians is to give money so I want to start with that question Arturo if you were there in the highlands of central Guatemala with very poor people if you had given if you had the means to give them all a lot of money or raise money and give them all a lot of money and just give it to them would that have solved the problem of poverty in amongst that people group Arturo well the answer directly is no no money money may increase the problem in fact you know it's what happened in Bolivia or happened in Venezuela or in any place you know where poverty is not you know understood in its very nature you know you make the mistake to think that poverty is a external material problem where people need money or resources you know because it's it's a condition you know where people lack something in their pockets.

Arturo Cuba 31:09

Right. And and and that's and that's a big mistake you know that's a big mistake.

Scott Allen 31:14

And if I could just interject there Arturo you know you were talking at the beginning of the podcast about how deeply you were shaped by the culture the surrounding culture and you know in the case of Bolivia it's a it's a kind of Catholic slash animistic culture, right? And that it deeply shaped your your your view of the world and this apologist, you know, coming from the United States um again I don't mean to pick on him but his response to poverty in terms of seeing it as a material lack and we overcome it with material things like money it indicates that how deeply he's been shaped, doesn't it, in terms of the prevailing worldview, even as a Christian, right? He sees it as you know he sees it through the lens of of matter, of stuff, of money. You know that's that's what poverty is and that's how you solve it. Anything you want to say about that?

Arturo Cuba 32:09

Yeah that's that's a cultural answer you know right that's a cultural answer. Yeah that exactly it's it's it's it's um it's nothing more I mean it's it's full of good intentions but you know he is not aware that that comes from his culture.

Scott Allen 32:24

I mean it's uh you know the the problem with Christians is that we don't have a theology for poverty and prosperity at the same time you know we take poverty and prosperity understanding from the world from our culture and try to solve it uh through the same means I mean uh it it doesn't you know it's it's a big failure it's a big failure you know it's that's what we I want to get into that more because I want to and I want to help people understand at least the beginnings of how do you how do you think and act you know because this is something that we're all confronted with actually you know there's poverty in all of our contexts in different forms and so it's it's really it's a very practical area of application of a biblical worldview.

How Poverty Is Produced

Speaker 2 33:13

So yeah yeah tell us more about you know you you were I didn't mean to cut you off you were explaining how we we are not thinking rightly essentially about the subject yeah that's true that's true I mean uh you you need to become very critical critical when you work among uh poor people and you have a message a biblical message you you need to uh reconcile the the the the gospel with poverty you need to give people an answer you have to have a clear theology and it takes time um to understand that you know I mean for instance I never thought that poverty came when sin entered the world it's it's it's a a final product you know is some people can misunderstand that and think that I'm saying that poor people are poor because they are sinners no I'm not saying that I mean I'm not saying that what I'm saying is that poverty and and in other conditions come from you know from from the broken moral state of humanity that is produced in the Garden of Eden. I mean it's uh you know but we need a theology for that we have to understand that poverty comes from within people I mean it's it's it's it's I mean to to me when when I talk to to I mean in in in conference and things like that what I tend to say is that poverty is a product poverty is not a a condition it's a product we produce it it's it's a explain that Arturo yeah explain that what do you mean we produce it what do you mean maybe you can even use the example of your time in Guatemala or something so well it's it's interesting but if you see poverty for instance systemic poverty in Latin America you know we do a lot of work to produce it you know it takes it sounds you know it sounds uh sarcastic but but it is true I mean it is true I mean uh there are many development is a very complex um process you know and in the same way poverty uh has many conditions that you have to follow to produce it you know um for instance um corruption and moral values that are not uh inserted in the family you know uh for instance let let me give you an example something that for me is a very a very very important uh thing is the role of women in society you know the role of women in society can determine the poverty or the development of society if you if you see every society that is suffering for from poverty you have to see how that society treats women I mean the more women is destroyed the more women is um you know subjugated is living in bondage of any kind you know the more impactful is poverty in the rest of society you know I've seen it many times it's kind of hard to explain but when God created woman he created woman for the prosperity of man that's what he says and I'm going to make someone who is going to become the ideal complement for this guy is what we don't we don't understand. I mean I've been reflecting a lot about how women um you know uh shape our lives in in all stages in poverty for instance in Guatemala you have mothers who have nothing to teach to their children and you know to nourish the children is not to feed them with food but you have to teach them a lot of things that are going to shape up their minds and their values and their interest in life in many ways. I mean we all respect our mothers for that you know she puts the first steps now if you treat the mother as a servant only and if you if you think that she shouldn't be educated as it is in many places of the world then you are going to have a mother who has who cannot nourish his children and that means poverty. And the mother can also secure the the transition from one generation to another generation of all these values because when we grow with all the values that our mothers can you know can put inside of us we are going to pass that to our children. Now if at the same time you find a wife that is like your mother then things are going to find little by little an incredible compliment but in many in many places you know women are beaten women are enslaved sexually enslaved women are considered inferior women are not educated then the sum of all that produces poverty and I mean it takes much more time and conversation and discussion to see every detail of how this process works but I assure you in the end you know it's it's a it's a certainty.

Scott Allen 39:14

So you're you're what I'm hearing you say Arturo is there's a lot of conditions that are causing that are contributing to people living in poverty and that has to be carefully examined. You know it's not simply enough to say let's just give money or so we've got to kind of say what's causing the poverty you know and in in the case that you gave as an example which is true around the world um you know in many places women are not valued they're not educated. And like you said whenever that that is the condition it's it's a it's a recipe for poverty for underdevelopment in in a family in a community. But go back to the uh situation if you would in in um in the highlands of Guatemala as you began to examine that community and ask these kinds of questions you said I already asked you hey if you just gave them a bunch of money you know would that have taken care of the problem you said no it would have made it worse um so when you began to get at the problem what what did you see?

The Process That Forms Character

Luke Allen 40:16

What what kind of things did you observe also also just just your your response there a second ago was surprising to me. You said no money wouldn't fix poverty which I was expecting you to say but then it would make it worse could you respond to that real quick uh why would it make it worse? I'm just curious.

Scott Allen 40:35

Yeah what what what why would money make poverty worse?

Speaker 2 40:38

That seems like an oxymoron right yeah I'll tell you two stories uh one happened here in Bolivia uh because uh we had the projects in the countryside and we had a a part of the office that were um people trained in nourishment children nourishment and they had uh this um measurements um uh you know system and things like that so um we um implemented some projects for um for income generating generating income for parents you know so and and that project was successful i mean they began to earn much more more money but what is what was interesting is that uh this nutritionist they discovered that children were much more undernourished now that parents have more money than before because now that they have money they were interested in buying you know um sound equipment and you know and things that I mean they they were not you could think that if they get more money they are going to go back home and say I will buy nice things for my children so that I will feed them with milk and things no they don't think that way I mean you know you miscalculated that because you don't know what the man has inside his mind you know what are his priorities what are his values how does he view the how does he view his children exactly exactly exactly and the value of his children right the other story happened in Guatemala where we had a training for agriculture and the the man who was the owner of the land we were using for this training he was very smart he learned everything and he began to use it very much and take all his products to the town sell them and coming back and going back and coming back and he began to prosper and then he bought a little car old car and used it to go and come and finally he made enough money to buy a truck and he was the first man in all those communities to own a truck and he began to walk you know on the main street you know smoking he he didn't smoke in the past but now he was smoking and you know and he he met one of our staff members yeah Domingo Cal who's a very nice guy and they began to chat and the other man said you know you know I have worked a lot and I have prosper and you know I now am the most prosper man in in the community I own a truck do you think I should change my wife now yeah he was interested in the city if you've got all sorts of you know sinful and very wrong ways of thinking and you give those people money you're just not you're gonna be kind of almost pouring fuel on a fire right making some of these yeah that's what I'm hearing you say but I can hear I can hear a lot of Christians go, okay, so just dumping money isn't going to be a solution to poverty.

Scott Allen 43:59

We have to change People from the inside through the gospel. They need people need to be born again, um, be saved, um, and then poverty will be eliminated. Um again, going back to your time in the highlands of Guatemala, I think some of those people were Christians, the gospel had come, right? But they were still in poverty. So what's the what's the fallacy there? As soon as somebody hears the gospel and responds to it, does that automatically mean that they come out of poverty?

Speaker 2 44:31

No, not at all. Absolutely not. I mean, they can have a relationship with God, and according to that, the Lord can lead them to change many things in their lives. But not such a thing as you know, as b just because I became a Christian, everything is going to work fine. Probably miraculously. No, it's it's it's it's a fantasy. Honestly, it's a fantasy. I mean, and you know, to leave poverty is a very hard work. It's a very hard work. And most of the time you have to talk to people and say you need to be patient. You have to work hard with your family, with yourself, you know, and in the future, and you probably will be working not for you, but for the next generation. It's it's not something that is going to happen, you know, just right away.

Scott Allen 45:25

There's no quick fix here.

Speaker 2 45:27

Exactly. And if you, I mean, there are some processes that have to be given, you know, in the meantime. And if you put money on that, people will not go to the through the process, you know. It's it's it's like, for instance, if I have to work hard for to get something, but on the other hand, somebody comes and gives me the money, I won't go to work. You know, I will get the yeah, I have the money. Why why should I go to work? I mean, process is a very important word, you know. Yeah, I mean, we we all pray to God and we ask God for final products. God, I want a car, I want a job, I want this, I want that. We want final products. No, God does not give you final products, He gives you the process, He gives you the means, you know, He gives you the seed. You have to plant it, you have to grow it, you have to work with it, and you have to deal with God. How He I mean transformation comes from God, does not come from man, you know. It's it's it's a process where God deals with you. So if you put money on that just right away, you pour money on poor people, that's it. You stop the process. It's like pouring water on a plant. Plants may need water, but if you you know just pour tons of water, you destroy the plant. And it's exactly the same thing, you know. People have to understand that money is not there, it's not the solution of the problem.

Scott Allen 47:10

Going back to the the the Pokemchi in central uh Guatemala, Arturo, you they many of them were Christians. Um I don't know if they were Catholic or Protestant, I don't know exactly what that looked like, but many of them had heard the gospel and responded. They were still in poverty. What was the the cause that um that you kind of identified there that was that was there, I'm sure there were more than one, but what was the what was the issue? Well, you know, especially kind of from a worldview standpoint, I guess, yeah.

Speaker 2 47:46

Well, I think that people I I haven't seen much about people becoming poor. What I've seen is people that were poor because their parents were poor and uh they are traditionally poor like campesinos, like you know, agriculture people, you know, in the countryside. And it's uh poverty is in their minds. Uh they grew up in in an environment like that. They they've seen their parents and their grandparents being poor. They see the children with no other different, you know, option. So poverty is part of their lives.

Scott Allen 48:24

That's all they know, that's all they've seen.

Speaker 2 48:26

Exactly. And and you know, society you know comes to this, uh it conforms to this um uh state of you know of things. And um and um what we can um see is that to I mean to I mean I'm sorry, I I got blank for a moment. You know what what you can see is that you have to deal, you know, with this um idea of uh poverty is like a cycle. You know, this uh you know it's um that there is a community here in Bolivia. Uh we were working in Food for the Hungary. It's called Tomoyo. Tomoyo is a place where uh there is a nice community, they have a nice piece of land, but they don't they have no water. So Food for the Hungary decided to to build a dam and and you know to to make a project for irrigation. But the problem with this community was that they were, you know, some I mean some very difficult people. They were fighting all day, you know, they had uh problems between families, they didn't work together to work together, they didn't want to send their children to school, they didn't want to cooperate with projects, and everything was a mess. And so we decided to to work with them. I mean, uh USAID was given the money, so we say, well, um we are a Christian organization and we will teach them about biblical worldview. I mean, but a biblical principle. And there is a principle uh in in the development ethics there. It says uh history is going somewhere, you know, and um, yeah, okay, let's use that. Let's uh let's make an adaptation for for them. Make a presentation for them. And it was very interesting, you know, it was very, very interesting. Because we make an adaptation with pictures of the place and people they know and things like that, but we make a presentation and we we taught them about the process. The process of a seed that you plant, and the seed is going somewhere. You know, the seed is going to become a tree, but then men take the tree down and and make a furniture, nice furniture. And the furniture cost a lot of money, and but that is the end, that's the idea, you know, that's the that that was the plan. And we were using several things like that, and at the end we used a person, a little baby, starting from the marriage of their parents. That's the scene. And we made the same process until the the child, which is uh is a girl, she becomes a nurse and she gets married and she has children and she's prosperous. But the interesting thing came when we said, this is history. What we are doing is history, and then they stop and say, history? But history is in the past. And we said, no, no, no. History is what you are going to do for the future. And this was completely new for them. And they said, What? Yes, you make history. They always had the idea that history were things that happened to you in the past. Most of the time they are bad things, you know, and you are just remembering them, you know. But in this case, we taught them that they could make history. And at the same time, we showed them that they were living the poverty wheel. And instead of thinking that history is a wheel that just goes around, my father was poor and I'm poor, and my child will be poor. I can take them somewhere. That was revolutionary. And you said, but that's a simple thing that we all have in the Western world, but they don't. They didn't have that idea.

Scott Allen 52:47

We would call that kind of the idea of human agency that God gives us this capacity to think and to dream and then to take action to make choices to achieve those dreams. Why is that a particularly biblical idea that that we cannot assume that everyone has Arturo?

Speaker 2 53:07

Yeah, well, but you know, uh what I'm trying to say is that uh in their culture that place was empty. They didn't have that any idea about the future, you know, and how they had to work towards the future. They I mean and I wasn't at the end of the day.

Scott Allen 53:26

No, there's no concept of that other than it was just going to be the same as the past, and the past was the place where there was a lot of bad things that happened, right? Poverty and brokenness and stuff, and so yeah.

Speaker 2 53:37

And interestingly, next day after that, they were changed completely. They decided to got to get to get together, to talk about their issues, to solve them, and to work together at the school for the children and to build the future. I mean, it was you said this is a game or what? I mean, it's like people, you know, hearing something so simple and innocent and and making it real. I mean, poverty is a trap in the mind of people, you know, and it requires to you know to take every little thing, and you never know what is the truth that is going to, you know, um break, you know, to break the barriers and and to make them see the light. You don't have to.

Scott Allen 54:29

Poverty is a trap in the mind of people is a very powerful thing to say, Arturo. Um and in the case that you were just you know gig illustrating there was that the in the mind there wasn't any kind of understanding of the future or of kind of human agency, our ability to act on act in time to bring about a different kind of future. Those ideas were absent, they didn't have those ideas. And so the mind is if you don't have those ideas truly, how can you change? How can you you know if you're in poverty, how can you change? You can do it, right? But I can see a lot of Christians, I can hear Christians going, but you know, is that a particularly biblical idea? Again, we're not used to thinking we're talking about Christians here, we're not used to thinking about uh Christianity as a worldview. We we think of it as a message of personal salvation. So how is this message of human agency and our ability to bring change into the future a biblical idea? Can you answer that, Arturo? Like help people think that through a little bit. Where do we see that in the scripture as opposed to other worldviews?

Truth Leads To Prosperity

Luke Allen 55:42

Yeah, that that I want to piggyback off that question. You said something once, Arturo, that's never I've never forgotten. You said biblical truth produces biblical prosperity. Or biblical truth brings biblical prosperity. That idea makes a lot of Christians very uncomfortable. Just the word prosperity people don't like mainly the word prosperity because we're scared of the prosperity gospel, which is kind of rightfully so. But just this idea of biblical truth leads you somewhere, it takes you in a direction. It can it can bring you towards the the the the purposes that God's you know instilled for your life. That idea a lot of Christians don't understand, so I think that also makes them uncomfortable with that phrase. Like biblical truth, it can't do that, really. Um just if you could if you could explain that a little bit more, that'd be great.

Speaker 2 56:34

That's one of the things that uh Darrell was teaching at that time that blessed need much more than anything. It becomes an equation, and you can trust on that as a as a mathematical certainty, you know. Truth produces life, and lies produce death. I mean, life and death explained as you know different conditions like death, for instance, poverty, you know, sickness, uh hunger, oppression, unjustice, things like that. And and and life as prosperity, uh solid families, and uh, you know, and I mean work and lots of those good things. I mean, I guess this is one of the problems that we uh Christians have. We take our faith as as um as an understanding of life that that has nothing to do with life. I mean I don't know how to say this.

Scott Allen 57:42

You know, I mean it's about uh is this what you're saying? It's about the afterlife, it's about heaven, but it's not about living this life. Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 2 57:53

But I mean what what we don't we don't do is we do not apply our faith to the to the real life for for for some reason. I I always call it dualism. It's it it works in everyone, you know. Dualism is one of the things that we have to uh um understand very, very well. And it affects all to all of us, it changes it changes our worldview. And and and if we take our faith as we did, that is in the past, that is a mean for eternal life and and forgiveness and all that, but has nothing to do with my work, with politics or my family and things like that, then Christianity is you know it's um alien. It's it's become something out of this world. And then you have no chance to understand what we are talking about, poverty. You won't understand poverty, you won't understand prosperity, and there are there there are no way to explain this. You have to, I mean, it happened to me when when we were talking with Dargo about biblical worldview the first time, one of the things that impacted me was uh work ethic, biblical work ethic. You know, because uh I remember that um uh in in the past when someone wanted to talk about how God works operates in our work, there was one of the leaders of the church that said, Look, don't bring me God to the work, please. Like saying, God is so holy, you know, he's so pure, that he has nothing to do with our work, which is worldly, you know, it's and it sounds sound nice at that moment, but it is unreal, completely unreal. So, and it back impacted me, and and I and I felt that I had failed God all my life, not taking him into my world of work in the in my workplace. So for me, the first time that I had to invite God to my work was very ceremonial. I I prayed and I said, Lord, I want you to be the Lord of my work. And I why while I was making that prayer, I couldn't believe it. Because it was something so you know in contradiction with that I had to break that contradiction and to trust. And little by little God was working them in my mind and in my heart, and my work was blessed, and I could see that he was hearing my prayers and and that he was you know supporting my work, and I and I realized that he was there. So it this reconciliation has to be experiential, an experience on every person. Then then you heal this dualism. Meanwhile, if you try to explain it to people, they won't understand it. So the problem is pastoral. More than intellectual, it's pastoral. I mean, how we understand the gospel from the beginning. Our pastors told us a story that we have matured, we have grown up with that, and in the end we cannot deal with that, you know, in reality.

Scott Allen 1:01:29

I'd like to Arturo bring it up. If you if we could just pick your thoughts, pick your mind on um our context here in the United States right now, especially in cities, large cities on the West Coast. We have such a huge problem right now of homelessness. We have um uh uh increasing numbers of people that are camping out now in tents just on the streets um and they're living in squalor. Um and uh you know it's it's you you you see them, you know, it's hard to go downtown in any of these cities without you know running into um running into uh this you know this this poverty um you know this what what is called homelessness, I guess. Um this is of course all over the world, but it's a huge problem now, and it's uh it's something that's getting a lot of attention. Um, you know, uh our local newspaper here in town that I live in, you know, it's often in the news. You know, what are we going to do? And what what you know what's the solution, what's the problem, you know, etc. What if if if you were here in this place, uh how would you uh think about it, approach it? What would be some thoughts that you would have, Arturo, given your vast experience in this area?

Speaker 2 1:02:48

Well, honestly, I think there are things that we can deal with at the personal level, but there are others that cannot be things that cannot be solved just by the personal intervention. Because those things are part of the big system of the government and society, and when Christians do not reach those positions, you are in trouble. You cannot solve them. Because there are things even here in Bolivia that we Christians can do a lot about them, but if we want to change them completely, we need the government. But the government is not going to be there because the government the government is not based on Christian people. We Christians need to understand that politics is one of one of our callings. Very important callings. And we need to get prepared, prepare the next generation, you know, and to work a lot on laws and and and things that uh are very important, you know, to avoid these uh situations, to heal them, you know. And I guess much of these things have been, you know, growing in years and cannot be solved from one day to another, not even from one government to another. And we at the same time, I can see that there are many other uh things that I've been reflecting lately. For instance, the role of family. I we were talking about women, right? And the role of family. And I guess you the United States is is one of the countries where family ties are broken too too early and too easily, you know. And with these philosophies of uh existential existentialism where people can choose whatever they want, they can live the life they they they may want, they can change their sexuality, and nobody can tell them anything about anything. So it it gets worse, you know. And if you destroy uh the connection of one generation with another one, you are lost.

Scott Allen 1:05:12

You are lost. And that of course isn't a um you know, that's not that that's a generational kind of solution as well, isn't it? But it that but there are things we can do now, right? There are things that we can do to encourage a return to uh yes, but you know, I mean what I'm trying to say is that um in this process there are things that are that can be, let's say, is uh in the structure, but at the same time there are other things that are more organic.

Speaker 2 1:05:46

I mean, family relations, you know, father authorities, authority, you know, uh, you know, children discipline, things like that are very hard to do. I I mean very hard to. Produce. You can you can make laws, you can put money, you can do a lot of things to repair that problem of homelessness, but you will not deal with the roots that is based on the family. You know, for instance, I I I remember.

Scott Allen 1:06:15

And you're right, Arturo. You know, it there's things that people can do directly, I suppose, but ultimately you're right about this being a larger systemic or policy issue that pe government officials have a lot to do with. You know, right now, one of the big solutions that is being proposed is, you know, it's kind of like we were talking earlier about money. They lack money, we're gonna solve the problem by giving them money. They lack a house, you know, because they're living in a tent, we're gonna solve the problem by putting them in a house. That's what kind of people think. So we'll build, you know, these low-income houses all over the place and put them in these houses. That's literally the solution that people are coming up with here.

Speaker 2 1:06:57

And you don't know, but you are creating another problem with that. You know, it happens all the time. Sometimes the the remedy is worse than the than the than the sickness, you know, because people Well, explain.

Scott Allen 1:07:11

What do you mean by that?

Family Breakdown And Neo Fatalism

Speaker 2 1:07:12

Yeah, people get used to have a government that that is giving me everything. You know, it's giving me home. And if they die, if they give me a house, I will ask for for food and I will. I mean, I mean, you know, it that's the sickness of politicians. They are always trying to take something from people. I mean, and in the same time, they don't they don't see the consequences of what they are doing in this case. For instance, in hearing in Latin America, in Argentina, in Bolivia, and in other countries, governments give away money a lot. And just because they want to be re-elected. And people, you know, they little by little, they they they are not conscious about the destruction that this is producing. You know, they are destroying the character of people, they are not hard workers, they are they are not they don't spare money. They I mean, little by little you you get into I mean, one lie takes you to another lie. You know, that's what I what I what I want to say. You never solve the problem.

Scott Allen 1:08:21

So the solution then for Christians is what, Arturo?

Speaker 2 1:08:26

It it's it's as I tell you, it's we have to, first of all, I mean, we need to reform the church. The first thing is we need to reform the church. We need the church to grasp the biblical worldview and to do it, I mean, seriously. Um the evangelical church today, as as as I was explaining at the beginning, is is is very dualistic. I mean, the the leadership of the church is is out of this world, it's it's not involving, it's not seen, I mean, it's not seen the problems of people. I have a uh I go to a church and I and I I am um discipling the pastor. And the pastor is a is a good worker and he has a business, and and the business is good, but he is tempted to leave the business and become a pastor full-time. And I tell him that is the last thing you're going to do in your life. You know, because if you stay and you work hard, all the people in the church are going to see you with much more respect. That you are a hard worker and are a pastor at the same time, and you are a father, and you are give you're going to provide a model for the young people. Instead of leaving your job, help others to learn what you do and teach them how to prosper on that. And you are getting you are going to gain much more. Don't, don't, don't do the other thing. And and that happens today in the in the evangelical church. Our leaders are are not connected to the world because they are they they live out of the church, they they are not connected to the work uh marketplace, they are uh you know they they don't work as the rest of people, they are not involved in the problems of of the rest of people. Then we need to change their mentality, we need to bring them back to a biblical worldview. Then probably society will have a chance for transformation. You know, then this is something I always say to people who I work with never teach anything that you don't leave out. Never never if you teach them about work ethic, you live it. And live it well. If you talk about giving money, you do it and do it well, you know, and everything, because transformation comes from God, and when you practice what you teach, that means faith. God will get involved in that, you know, and the church needs to do that. I mean, but it's it's a long way that we what we will have to walk if we want to do that. I mean, I don't feel so much confident about it.

Scott Allen 1:11:28

I don't mean to laugh because hey, the confidence I think comes in comes with God Himself, right? He's the same yesterday, today, and forever. And we've seen it happen in the past where churches can be reformed and and begin thinking in new ways, and that can bring about a change in a culture. Yes. Um if it's happened in the past, it can happen again, you know.

Luke Allen 1:11:50

So Luke, any questions for you as we wrap up? Yeah, I realize we're getting a little low on time. I I really enjoyed this, Arturo. Thank you for especially the quote that you said earlier that um uh poverty is a trap in our minds. Poverty is a trap in our minds. I'd like everyone to just reflect on that. That's that's uh paradigm shifting type of sentence. You know, poverty is not a lack of money, that's our normal definition. That's not the right definition. It's a trap in our minds, and that really opens it up. And I just think of like you were saying, Dad, you were asking Arthur about poverty in the West. And if you're if you're gonna use that definition, that poverty is a trap in our minds, then we have a huge poverty issue when it comes to our identity here in the West. Is we live in traps in our minds that are built around lies around our identity as humans. Um, and a lot of times um the trap that we're stuck in is very fatalist, which is funny coming from the West, right? We don't usually think that we're fatalists here in the West. We like to think that we have the you know the American dream and we can pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps. Not so much anymore. Um there's there's a real world view in the West of fatalism right now, and it's it's trapping a lot of people in the poverty of that, and I see that all around me. So do you see for people listening? Yeah.

Scott Allen 1:13:17

Well, I was just gonna ask if you see that, because I've been noticing the same thing, and I think it's a function of what's taught in our universities right now is predominantly a kind of a variation of a Marxist idea, and that I you know, that so that's taken a deep root in our systems of education and in people's minds. And the way that that kind of worldview works out in a very practical way is that the problems that I am facing, whether it's broken families or poverty or whatever it is, the problems I'm facing are caused by somebody else. You know, it's the oppressor, right? I'm being oppressed by that particular person or group. And when you think that way, you know, it's always what that does, what that has the effect of, and there then there may be some truth to that, right? Of course, because we live in a world where oppression is real. But but when you think that way, kind of ultimately it it's a form of fatalism because then there's really nothing you can do to change your situation, right? You didn't cause it, it's been caused by somebody else. The only thing that's going to bring about a change is if they themselves change, right? Like they've got to provide reparations and give me money for the oppression that they've uh visited upon me in the past through slavery or whatever it is, right? But I can't I can't change myself. Is that kind of one of the things you're seeing? Because I see that a lot.

Luke Allen 1:14:44

No, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I mean, Marxism is neo-fatalism. It's just a new version. It's a new version of it, right? Right. Right. This is like you said, that there's real oppression in the world. But the worst thing that you can tell someone who's oppressed is you're you're oppressed, there's nothing you can do about it. Right. And entrap them in fatalism. That's the worst thing you can do. Uh and we we really need to stop doing that here in the in Western countries. And that's true in Latin America too. I mean, Marxism's global at this point um and affecting people terribly all over the place.

Scott Allen 1:15:19

And you know, back to the situation with homelessness that we were talking about, we tend to see, because of the Marxist lenses now that are so dominant in the culture, we tend to see the homeless people as victims of, you know, capitalists or w what whatever, you know, they're victims. That's why they're out there on the street. And there's nothing they can do for themselves, right? And so, you know, it's it it it it it's it's you know, any kind of change that's gonna come has to come from somewhere else. Um you know, they are just victims, and that mindset in itself really uh exacerbates the problem, right? You know, I mean it's it it's it you know, so listen, Luke and Arturo, we've gone over time, but uh this is I I just want I want to just end by encouraging all of you who are out there, we're involved in trying to bring about change from a a standpoint of how do we engage with the with the brokenness and the poverty in our community. Um we have to do that biblically. We have to think biblically. It's not as simple as just, hey, God calls me to be generous, which he does. Uh so be generous, but just giving money isn't going to be the solution, okay? Um we have to think biblically. What are the causes? And as we got to um the conclusion of our conversation, so much of it comes with the way God established society and its most basic building block, the family. So um how do we strengthen strengthen families in our churches and in our communities? That so much is going to be um done to affect poverty from that standpoint. Arturo, thanks for the time. We're really grateful.