The Church Has Shrunken Discipleship. Jesus Didn't | Scott, Nelson, & Luke

Episode Summary:

What happens when most Christians have a definition of discipleship that's too small?

For many believers, discipleship means Bible studies, church programs, quiet times, or spiritual disciplines. While all of these are important, what if they're only part of the picture?

In this episode, Scott, Nelson, and Luke explore the most common definitions of discipleship, affirm what's right about each one, and explain what's missing. They argue that many Christians have unintentionally reduced discipleship to a handful of spiritual activities, leaving the Church with a fragmented vision of following Jesus and the Great Commission.

More importantly, they present a fuller vision of discipleship, one that extends into every area of life. They explain why Jesus' command to "make disciples of all nations" only makes sense when we recover a robust understanding of what discipleship really is. Fragmented ideas about discipleship produce fragmented consequences for the Kingdom.

In this episode:

• The difference between a disciple and discipleship
• Why discipleship is about every area of life, not just "spiritual" life
• How the sacred-secular divide has shaped modern Christianity
• Why information alone doesn't produce transformation
• How a biblical understanding of discipleship can transform individuals, churches, communities, and even nations

If Jesus has authority over all things, then discipleship must include all things. This conversation will challenge you to rethink one of Christianity's most familiar words and recover a vision of discipleship that extends far beyond Sunday morning.

Who is the Disciple Nations Alliance (DNA)? Since 1997, DNA’s mission has been to equip followers of Jesus around the globe with a biblical worldview, empowering them to build flourishing families, communities, and nations. 👉 https://disciplenations.org/

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Episode Webpage

Transcript

Go Make Disciples Not Converts

Nelson Monteiro 0:02

As Jesus says, go make disciples. A lot of it in the last century has been about go-make converts, but the go-make disciples is a different thing.

Luke Allen 0:11

Why does this matter? Uh it's because ideas have consequences. If your ideas are too narrow, the consequences are going to be too narrow. And the consequences of a narrow view of discipleship affects the world and it affects nations.

Scott Allen 0:22

A common way that discipleship is understood in the church today leans in the direction of what I would call head knowledge. It's, you know, we've got to help people understand things, to know things, to know things truthfully, especially theological things. They need to know that. But what I see in the again, not wrong, very much right, but what I see in the Bible is much more an emphasis not on what you know, but what you're doing. The fruit of it, the proof of it, isn't going to be so much passing a test, but the proof of discipleship is actually how are you living?

Luke Allen 0:54

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, not just mind.

Scott Allen 0:59

Think about all the people sitting in our churches, right? They've got passions, but all often, when we approach them with the topic of discipleship, it doesn't even touch their passion, right?

Luke Allen 1:09

Just like individual discipleship is about becoming who God created us to be, discipling nations is about helping nations become who God created them to be. It is about seeking to see the nations live in God's perfect design for them. We're talking a big vision now.

Scott Allen 1:24

That when we talk about becoming like Jesus, the question is who's Jesus? At the Disciple Nations Alliance, the very first core belief that we have is that Jesus is king. He's the Lord, and his lordship isn't just over the spiritual parts of life. He's king over all. Jesus said, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to be his authority. He has authority, power over everything. He's the king. That's what it means to be king. He's the king, not just when he comes back, but right now. Becoming like Jesus is going to affect all of our lives, every part of our life, because he's the Lord over all of it.

Luke Allen 2:04

Hi friends, welcome back to another episode of Ideas Have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. As Christians, we all know that our mission is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. However, our mission, the Great Commission, is a little bit bigger than that. It also involves working to transform our cultures so that they increasingly reflect the truth, goodness, and the beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission, and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God. I love the intro to this show. It is so applicable to today's episode where we are talking about discipleship. What do we mean by discipleship here at the DNA? For any of you guys who are new, my name is Luke Allen. I am the producer and a co-host here on the show, and I am joined today by my dad, Scott Allen, as well as our friend and coworker, Nelson Montiero. Dad, how are you doing today? Thanks for joining. Great, Luke. So good. Thank you. Yeah, would you mind giving people just I mean, today's episode had a really simple outline, but just a quick idea of what we're going to get into?

Scott Allen 3:17

Absolutely. Yeah. Today we uh we wanted to just, you know, pick up this word discipleship and just uh ask three questions. First of all, uh, what do most Christians have in their minds, let's say Bible-believing Christians in the United States and around the world? What do they what's our observation about what they have in their mind when they think about discipleship or what it means to be a disciple? That was the first question we uh we uh kicked around. The second one is how do we define disciple? What is a disciple? Uh some really, really basic, important questions. Words matter, and this word really matters. We want to define it as as accurately as we can. And then a third, what is discipleship? Uh so not the person, but the process. What is discipleship? So we're gonna dig into those. Uh and I think today, yeah, I loved it. It was really, really great to talk about not just what I think most Christians have in their minds, but the difference when we talk about discipleship, and I'm trying to, we're trying to do it biblically, obviously. Uh, what's different? Um, and we're gonna talk about narrow versus larger, not right and wrong, because it's not right and wrong, but it's narrow, maybe incomplete, larger. Uh that's where we're gonna go today. Back to you, Luke.

Luke Allen 4:30

Thanks, Ed. Well, actually, I'm gonna turn it back to you because we're gonna hop into the episode. So without further ado, let's hop into the episode on discipleship.

Scott Allen 4:40

Well, welcome again to another episode of Ideas Have Consequences. It's great to be here. And um today, uh excited to be with uh Luke and uh Nelson. Nelson, it's great to have you as well, one of our team members, uh our director of operations up in Victoria, British Columbia. How's it going, Nelson?

Nelson Monteiro 4:58

Yes, going well. Very good to be back here in the podcast and enjoy. I enjoy.

Scott Allen 5:04

Well, excellent. We're so glad to have you, and Luke, it's great to be with you as well. And uh today it's just gonna be a team podcast. Um we uh what I think what prompted this uh, amongst other things, is well, a couple of things. Number one, we're the Disciple Nations Alliance. We have this word disciple right in our name. And so consequently, people often ask a fair question what do you mean by disciple? And uh so that's that's gonna be what we're gonna focus on. What what do we what do we mean by this concept of disciple and discipleship? Um, and then of course we pair that with nations. We can talk about that a little bit as well. Um, but uh, but yeah, this came up for me uh just last week. I was up backpacking uh in the Central Oregon Cascades, beautiful area with a a dear friend of mine who um has been a missionary in Turkey for many years, great guy. Um wanted to try to understand better what I was doing, what is the Disciple Nations Alliance? Um uh he was a church planning missionary, and you know, I said, Well, we're a discipleship ministry. And he said, Well, what do you you know, tell me more about it? And uh, anyways, he, you know, we had a talk, and then he said, Well, when I think of discipleship, I think of, you know, these new believers that I've seen come to Christ, and I'm helping them to understand what is the Bible, what does it mean to be a Christian, um, you know, what uh, you know, what does it mean to participate in evangelism? All of these things are are, I think, very common and typical. But uh, when we talk about discipleship, I it made me realize we we think of something that's bigger than that. And so, anyways, that that's what kind of prompted me and Luke as we were talking about this episode to say, let's come back and just spend an hour on this um uh question that I think is very basic and very common. So first question, what do you think as you um go around and you interact with people, uh, Nelson and Luke, uh, how do they understand uh disciple and discipleship? What do they what what do they mean when they when they use that term? What what do they what do they do? What kind of practices do they put into place?

Nelson Monteiro 7:16

Okay, yeah. The first thought that comes to my mind, a course, a course in a local church, right? Um that hopefully will cover the Bible, the truths of the Bible. So biblical literacy, that's the first thing that comes to my mind. Uh you need to be liter littered in your Bible, right? Um So biblical literacy is the first thing that comes to my mind. Course program. Okay, yeah.

Luke Allen 7:43

Yeah, when we were preparing for this episode, one thing that

How Churches Commonly Define Discipleship

Luke Allen 7:46

I always have to remind myself is even though we at the DNA have a a way of kind of defining these terms, it's not that a lot of other terms that we hear from other people are wrong or not biblical or whatever, it's just that we would say they're narrow and that for us discipleship is a very broad concept. Um as we see throughout the Bible, Christ uses the term all authority referring to himself, and then all things referring to the world. And a lot of times when we're talking about discipleship, we also use the term all things. So we're talking about I like the kind of word picture of we're talking about like an archery target, and the entire target is discipleship. And then when I hear a lot of definitions people give, it's not that they're wrong, like a different target, it's just that there's small sections on the target and biblical literacy literacy is one. So that's part of discipleship, absolutely. Um, but it's not what we're talking about, which is we we we kind of think it's a fuller definition, a bigger definition, a larger one. Um a lot of terms I hear when people talk about discipleship is Bible study, you know, discipleship study. Um when people are practicing the spiritual disciplines, they're saying, This is my discipleship. I'm you know, growing in spiritual discipline. Um sometimes just one-on-one mentoring, you know, it's a discipleship meeting. I'm meeting with my mentor and growing in discipleship, or going to church, going to missions trips, going and serving, participating in church, participating in small groups, this is all part of my discipleship, right? And then just evangelism. Uh a lot of times here at the Disciple Nations lines, people say what the Great Commission is talking about when it says go and make disciples of all nations is it's actually just saying go and make converts in all nations, evangelizing the nations. That's that's really what the Great Commission is getting at. So they're kind of swapping evangelism for discipleship. What other ones? Uh following Jesus, you know. But what people mean when they say following Jesus as discipleship is merely that that sacred part of following Jesus, the the prayer, the reading the Bible, the the the quiet times with Jesus, the accountability, the spiritual disciplines in that part of following Jesus, which is very churchy and good, uh, is discipleship. So those are some of the common definitions I hear, uh which I agree with, all of them again, just to reiterate. It's just I would say they're narrower than what we're gonna talk about today.

Nelson Monteiro 10:12

And the and if I can add Scott right there, because when when Luke said fragmentation, I had uh thought about that word, and the whole fragmentation between evangelism and discipleship, right? That uh we we we think about as the sequence. We evangelize, the person responds, makes a decision, we start discipling the person. So that's another common uh vision in in our local churches, right? That there is a sequence. You evangelize, then you disciple the and and by the way, the metrics are easier, right? If you evangelize and the person says yes, that's an indicator, it's the it's a it's a quantity. You measure, okay, there is a decision here. Now discipleship is another story, right? How do you measure discipleship? It's another story. So that has led to disintegration, disconnection, fragmentation, right? That's that's what we have seen. I agree.

Scott Allen 11:04

Yeah, I would, I would, um, I would just reiterate what you were saying too, Luke. I think when most people, most evangelicals, Bible-believing Christians today, uh, think of discipleship, what they have playing in the background of their mind, and it's not intentional, it's not something they've studied and they've agreed to. Oh, you know, this is but there is this kind of background assumption that the world can be divided into these two compartments. We talk about it often on the podcast, the the spiritual and everything else. You know, the you know, you might call it the secular parts of life. Um, but that just kind of runs in the background. And when we think of discipleship, we put it into the category of spiritual. Um and so it has to do with spiritual things, it has to do with growing in knowledge of God, uh, growing in knowledge of the Bible. These are spiritual things, theology. You you can have some like a new believers class that would be considered discipleship, you know, just basic core doctrines. Or you can have a more in-depth one, which is kind of let's really get into kind of like deeper level theology, but it's still in that kind of spiritual area of life. It may include evangelism, how to do evangelism, how to have devotions, how to pray, these kinds, but all these are spiritual things. And unknowingly, it's separated from really where we live most of our lives, which isn't in this kind of spiritual component, so to speak, but in our families, in our work, in our just daily lives. And the assumption, the kind of the unspoken assumption is that somehow those parts of life aren't you know, Jesus isn't really the Lord. I mean, nobody would ever say that, but it's kind of functional, right? It kind of functions that way. Jesus isn't really Lord over these other areas of life, work, vocation, politics, culture, uh, art, entertainment, you name it, all of these areas that we are involved in in a lot of parts of our lives, much less family, right? Just how we function in our families. Um I mean, that one I would say is kind of there's an overlap there, but between between these categories. But but that's what's going on, you know, I think behind the uh scenes, so to speak, behind the curtain is that kind of unwritten assumption. And so consequently, when you define discipleship, or most Christians think about it, they tend to, and I've just noticed that they tend to put it into that kind of spiritual compartment, but then it doesn't touch on all of these other areas of life. And and that's really the big problem, one of the big problems that we are trying to address at the DNA is that if the Bible, and let's just put it this way, if Christ isn't king or lord over all of these things, and if the Bible only applies to spiritual things, but not to a lot of other things, if it doesn't apply to my work as a plumber or as a teacher or as a businessman, that it doesn't apply to politics, it doesn't apply to culture, okay, it doesn't mean that I don't live in those areas or those areas don't impact me or I don't function in those areas. Of course I do. But how do I do that, right? Uh if the unkind of spoken assumption is the Bible doesn't speak to those areas, Jesus isn't Lord of those areas, I'm gonna just function basically. The default will be I'll function according to however other people in my culture function in those areas. So this is the problem, right? Consequently, I think we, you know, we're forming people. It's like you said, Luke, it's not wrong, you know, it's just incomplete. It's like too small of a circle. You were using the targets. We're gonna be formed in all these areas of life, but if we're not formed biblically,

Sacred Secular Split And Its Damage

Scott Allen 14:46

if we don't see Jesus as Lord over all of those things, then we're gonna have this kind of double-mindedness. We'll be spiritual in certain areas, we'll be um, you know, we'll be kind of functionally whatever, secular, postmodern, animistic, whatever the culture is, we'll be that way in other areas of our life. And I think that's what Barna is seeing too. When Barna, George Barna does his research, he says, I think of the church today, the evangelical church, he says the word that he uses to describe it is syncretistic. It's double-minded. And I think that's the fruit of this kind of this kind of again, this unspoken assumption that's kind of running in the background. We won't get into why that's the case. It just I'm just observing that it's there. So uh agree with you, Luke. I think it's again, it's not, it would be wrong to say that people's understanding of discipleship is wrong. It's just not complete. And why is it incomplete? There's that again that that uh that thing that's running in the background.

Nelson Monteiro 15:44

I was gonna say commenting on that, uh uh Scott, this whole idea of the separation between the spiritual and the the secular, right? The sacred and the secular. Um, this whole idea of uh as Jesus says, go make disciples. A lot of it in the last at least the last one uh last century has been about go make converts.

Speaker 1 16:08

Right.

Nelson Monteiro 16:08

But the go make disciples is a different thing that Jesus is talking about here, right? Uh so and and I that's one of the things that the DNA did for me that helped because I always thought about discipleship. I mean, I always say that there is these areas of discipleship, uh talk about biblical literacy. Yes, people need to know their Bible. Like actually in North America these days, we talk about this phenomenon of biblical illiteracy as we talk to pastors, especially in North America. But it's not only here, it's it's really global in a sense. But the the biblical literacy, character development, spiritual formation, and then I I start to the DNA help uh helped me to also say service.

Speaker 1 16:46

Right.

Nelson Monteiro 16:46

Those things for discipleship to be happening, those things have to be happening. And and as we broaden this this definition of the discipleship, the DNA, we are really covering all these areas. It's not it's not a sequence, it's not a fragmentation that we each one will uh um will be an expert in one area. It's all these things happening together, right? Um so uh and we cannot reduce or fragment to one or the other, right?

Scott Allen 17:13

I I would add to you, if I could, I think uh a common way that discipleship is understood in the church today leans in the direction of what I would call head knowledge. Um it's you know, we've got to help people understand things, to know things, to know things truthfully, especially theological things. They need to know that. They need to know what's false and what's true. I but what I see in the again, not wrong, very much right, but what I see in the Bible is much more an emphasis not on what you know, but what you're doing. You know, Jesus said, if you love me, you will obey, right? You will obey my commandments. It it's gonna be the fruit of it, the proof of it isn't gonna be so much passing a test, right? Uh kind of a written test, like, do you know the right answers? But the the proof of discipleship, the fruit of discipleship is actually, how are you living? You know, is it can I see, can I see it in your life? And uh can I see the character of Christ, the the love, the compassion, the service, you know, are these evident, right, in my life? That that actually would be quite a different approach. And I know Bob Moffat, uh our uh one of our co-founders really emphasizes this a lot. That if you if you took an approach to discipleship, not about uh kind of a seminary course of knowledge, of theological knowledge as important as that is, but rather, you know, how do we help people to actually put love into practice, service into practice? You know, how do we um, you know, and and that's what we're gonna aim for is that that people are are doing that, actually obeying that. Yeah, that would be another thing I'd add.

Luke Allen 18:52

Yeah, yeah, it's about it's about living, it's a lifestyle. It's um love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Not just mind.

Scott Allen 19:01

Not just mind. Yeah, there's a lot of emphasis on mind, exactly, Luke. Yeah, and again, I'm not wrong. You know, the mind is super important.

Nelson Monteiro 19:08

Oh, yeah. Even for us at DNA, we have to be careful so that as we talk about wordview and and the renewal of the mind, right? We have to be careful that it doesn't become too cerebral, as as the we I I love apologetics. Um, but the the the risk with me with apologetics is that it becomes it can become very cerebral. But that's what we're talking about, right? It's uh it's the way that Jesus says, even the other aspect of this, Jesus says, You will know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. To know for the Hebrew mind is relational. It's not only mind, right? So J.I. Packer, my professor at Regent College years ago, he would say to know God is he would say to us it's a relational knowledge, it's a relationship, right? So there is that aspect that then that then helps us not to fall into that trap of it becomes cerebral, right?

Scott Allen 20:03

Yeah, that's right. I think one of the great tragedies that you can see if you fall too deeply into that just cerebral mind-only approach to discipleship is is where people do have right answers, but that you don't see it in their lives. You know, it's just there's just, you know, they're they're you know, I I I also think the rubber meets the road on discipleship in terms of our action in our most basic relationships, you know, like with our children, our spouses, you know, those who are closest to us. I mean, are we, you know, when we have a conflict, for example, are we really living out what the Bible teaches? Or do we just kind of default to the way the culture kind of you know directs us to act and to function in these areas? But we can, you know, but we can, and if we do, then that's a tragedy, especially if we know the right answers. You know, if we can come back and, you know, come back with all the right cerebral theological answers, but there's this gap in terms of actually how we live and our most basic relationships, you know, around us.

Speaker 21:01

And even the question, Scott, of how we how we come to know how we learn, right? Because it's cultural. So yes, that's correct. Right. If you go, I remember this class in phenomenology of religion that we we we we're talking about, that because is this in the West, we we learn majorly by concepts. So it is kind of the mind. Mindation, right? Um, which is not true for every cult. I mean, we still learn through experience, of course, we still learn about through the relational concrete, um, the the triangle, something comes like triangulation, but the concept is the center of the Western mind.

Scott Allen 21:38

If you go uh to uh if I could ask uh Nelson, do you think that comes from kind of Greek thinking, Greek philosophy? Because that that's a that's played a huge role in shaping kind of Western thinking, myself included, there, right?

Speaker 21:50

Yeah, because we go to the Hebrew mind, and the Hebrew mind had more of this whole thinking that we are talking about here, right? But the Greek mind, right? So so all these things, but interesting also as you As you walk in culture, like for if you go to India, for example, you still learn by concept. But the experience is the top one. Especially psychological, psychic experience. That's how you know your experience. And if you go even a little bit more to the east, the relational concrete of the of a lot of Asia, right? You learn like Jesus. That's actually the way it's exactly the way he did it, right? That's right. Yeah.

Scott Allen 22:27

Well, um, oh, I was thinking of Jesus' model of discipleship, which was relational.

Speaker 22:31

Yeah.

Scott Allen 22:31

Come and follow me, watch me, do what I do. You know, um, it was very much learning, you know, some people call it apprenticeship, but it was learning in direct relationship to the master, uh, doing what he did, you know, and he literally sent them out to do what I do, you know.

Speaker 22:49

So yeah, come walk with me, right? Come walk with me. Learn from me. Exactly. Uh, and I'm moral in that here, yeah. And there's Jesus walking with his disciples for three years. And yeah, yeah. But but the idea of concept, right? That it it is part of our cultural learning process, cognitive process. Right. But we need to be careful, right?

Luke Allen 23:07

Um I like uh uh Charles Spurgeon one time said, and I think this is still true today, um, discipleship is too often forgotten, but it is as needful as faith. And then he said another time, to follow Christ is the picture of Christian discipleship in every form, and that every form part of things is what we're gonna get into a little bit more today. But um this idea that discipleship is often forgotten, I think like you were saying, Nelson, a bit ago, uh a reason that I don't think it's emphasized as much as we would like to see in churches is often because it's hard to measure. And boy, is that true. Because discipleship is a lifelong process that all of us are uh you know living out, but we will never complete. So you can't exactly go to a church and say, How many disciples do you have? Like it's some concrete number. It's we have people being discipled, uh, and they're they're working on this. Uh, that's a whole nother episode, but how to measure discipleship is something that we spent uh a couple years actually trying to do here at the Disciple Nations Alliance with the help of a research group. Um, but anyways, these definitions of discipleship that we've been giving, um, even though again they're all correct, but we would just say they're a little bit too narrow. Um for you guys listening who are wondering, you know, why are you guys talking about this? Why does this matter? Uh it's because ideas have consequences. And uh if your ideas are too narrow, the

When Discipleship Stays In The Head

Luke Allen 24:32

consequences are going to be too narrow. And uh the consequences of a narrow view of discipleship affects the world and it affects nations. Um I think w what what would you guys say in response to that? How have you seen the effects of a narrow view of discipleship in the world? We've definitely seen this uh through our work.

Scott Allen 24:50

I mean, Darrow says it well, Luke, you know, when he says if the church doesn't disciple the nations, the nations will disciple the church. And if your if your vision of discipleship is too narrow, if it's spiritual only, again, you're gonna be formed in every area of your life. That's just, you know, we always are, because we function in every area, right? But if if if our formation spiritually, biblically, doesn't encompass all things, then you know, we're going to be this, again, the the consequence is this, and I think it's tragic and I think it's true, this kind of double, we're going to live this double-minded life where we can be seen in kind of spiritual, in a spiritual way as being quite a good disciple. You know, we have our devotions in the morning, we read the Bible. If you gave me a theology test, I'd pass it. Um, and yet, you know, if you go and you look at how I'm doing my work as a businessman or an educator or a lawyer, you wouldn't see much difference at all in those areas than the people that are non-Christians that are functioning in those areas. I saw this a lot when I was working at Food for the Hungry, quite frankly. You know, we were there helping the poor, trying to help impoverished communities to rise out of poverty. And a lot of Christians that were working at Food for the Hungry, um, they were very devout. They prayed every morning, read their Bibles, studied their Bible, had mentors. But when it, when you got down to the work that they were doing of actually helping the poor, you couldn't tell any difference at all between the actual things that they were doing and secular non-Christian organizations. And why was that? Well, because in their mind, you know, the Bible and Jesus doesn't have anything to do with development, right? You know, that's a secular topic. And I think that's the that's the negative consequence. We have we have this of this narrow, too narrow of a view that that that is just focused on this spiritual but not on all um kind of type of thing.

Speaker 26:43

And we end up living in this very superficial level, Scott, when God called us to this deep, rich life of flourishing. That's how he designed us to be as humans, right? Right. Uh and and sometimes I I I say that I'm uh I'm I'm my our job is not only to help people become Christians, uh of course, that is part of the journey because Jesus is the truth we believe, but it also also helping people become humans.

Speaker 1 27:12

That's right.

Speaker 27:13

As we design to be to be, that's discipleship, right? Uh that's right. And and also I was thinking about Steve Patty with uh the DNA did the impact study last year. And remember the triangle that Steve Patty showed, and and that shows the triangle, yeah. And then on the outside of three sides, there is the the know, the do, and the feel. But if you want a deep discipleship, the know has to become belief, the do has to become behavior action, right? Life. And the feel has to become love, like as Jesus calls us to do. So so that's the one consequence we live superficially when we land in one of these misconceptions of of discipleship, right?

Luke Allen 27:56

Absolutely. Yeah, and the consequences of that really do affect people's lives, affect nations, as we as we often say, um, there's uh plenty of countries around the world where most of the population in the country would claim to be Christians. Um and yet you look at the countries and you look at the consequences in those countries, and you uh I mean we always say Nicaragua, we always pick on Nicaragua and Kenya, their populations are far north of 90% of the population saying they're Christian, and yet they're you know riddled with corruption and poverty, and I mean not just to pick on those countries. I mean, the US has the most Christians in the world, uh and yet we also in the US have the most broken marriages of any country in the entire world, which is crazy to think about. Um, or what's another example? Oh, well, uh in recent surveys there they're they're people are tracking this so-called um revival amongst young men, which is awesome to see. And according to a recent George Barnett or uh let's see, the Barnett group did this study, they they found that 54% of Gen Z men, uh people like me, are reading our Bibles on a weekly basis, which is crazy to think about. But only 1% of Gen Z has a biblical worldview. So only 1%'s actually living this out, living out the discipleship. So there's a huge drop-off there. They're reading their Bible, they they're they're they're knowing, but they're not believing. You know, they're they're they're doing the right thing, they're reading their Bible, but they're not becoming

How Narrow Discipleship Hurts Nations

Luke Allen 29:26

the Christ-like character, at least yet. You know, hopefully this will change. We're definitely praying for that. Um and there's just yeah, the the consequences of a narrow definition of discipleship are actually, you know, pretty devastating to our world, even as more and more people are coming to Christ. You know, the the numbers are amazing. Uh more churches are being planted and more Bibles are being sold, but it needs to become it needs to actually affect the world.

Speaker 29:52

And and the and the consequence in society that you're mentioning there, Luke, uh for I I come originally from Brazil, and that's one of the things that then they helped me too, because there was one point that I I I grew up in the church, and we we I mean there's so many instances of revivals that we had experienced and continue to experience in Brazil. Uh and then the the growth of the church, like the evangelics when I was a child were like 3%, 3 to 5%, as I grew uh and you look today, almost 30% of the of Brazil.

Luke Allen 30:25

Uh, actually, I just I just heard that Brazil has the second most Christians of any country in the world.

Speaker 30:30

I didn't know that. Yeah, it's cool. Exactly. And then we you see the growth of the church, and on the other side, you look the social indicators are really things like poverty, corruption, etc. So where is transformation? Why is this gospel that is making churches grow not also making a nation transforming a nation?

Scott Allen 30:52

It is the central question that the DNA is seeking to answer, Nelson. I mean, you put your finger on it, that is what you know. Can you have a discipleship that leads people to have a level of personal piety, devotion, you know, when it's measured by church attendance, daily devotions, Bible reading, and yet still have a nation, a broader nation, that is riddled with corruption and poverty and injustice and all sorts of brokenness? Uh yeah, the answer is yes. That's not what God wants, we're convinced. Um and so part of the problem, part of the reason for that is this incomplete understanding of discipleship. And that really brings us to the next question, which is what is a disciple?

Defining A Disciple

Scott Allen 31:39

Okay, how how would you define that biblically? Uh okay, uh what what so let's just go around again. What is a disciple? Um, if we want to avoid this kind of too narrow spiritual only uh error, what what we have to start with some basic definitions, and the most important one is just what is a disciple? So who wants to start? Luke, Nelson?

Speaker 32:04

I like what Luke already said in the beginning. Uh uh simply a follower of Jesus. Period. But then when you look at Jesus, right, and he says, Come follow me. Right, come follow me. When you look at Jesus, what he was equipping people who followed him. He was equipping them with this gospel of the kingdom of God, right? And the gospel of the kingdom of God is really not he's not creating anything new, he's just bringing a whole message from the Old Testament, from creation, right? That God designs us, and so there's God's ways for life to flourish that comes from creation. So, so that's what he's he's equipping his followers to learn and to do and to to spread, really spread the kingdom, right? So a follower of Jesus, and Jesus is showing God's ways for life to flourish, for us to serve, for us to come to help our communities, our families, our communities to flourish. So he's a follower of Jesus in that sense, right? Uh not only in the spiritual sense of things, but not only in heaven, but on earth here, a follower of Jesus here on earth to spread kingdom, the gospel of the kingdom of God, right?

Scott Allen 33:20

Luke, how about you? How would you define what is a disciple? We'll we'll get to what is discipleship next, but what is a disciple?

Luke Allen 33:27

I have a hard time defining these separately, uh, because they they go together so hand in hand, you know. One is a person, one is a process, I guess. Yeah. Exactly, exactly. So so the person is someone becoming Christ-like, you know, a follower of Christ. Uh Dallas Willard said a disciple is someone who is with Jesus to learn from Jesus how to be like Jesus. So a discipleship is becoming Christ-like or someone seeking union with Christ, as some people also say. Uh so I I like those. A few other quotes I have here. Uh Charles Spurgeon, he said, the first requisite of a disciple of Christ is wholeheartedness. Or another Dallas Willard quote here. A disciple is a person who has decided that the most important thing in their life is to learn how to do what Jesus said to do. So that one's a little heady, but it's it's it's about just becoming more like Jesus, seeking union with him. Um, and then as I hope we talk about a little bit later, I would say uh a disciple can also be a group of people, not just an individual, as the Great Commission shares with us, but we can get to that later. What about you, Deb?

Scott Allen 34:37

Yeah, I think what you guys have shared there is really excellent. I'm gonna just kind of um take what you've said and I'm gonna offer a definition that's going to put kind of a fine point on a little bit of this. Um, rather than just talking about Jesus becoming like Jesus, uh, I want to use the word King Jesus or the phrase King Jesus. Um, because I think that's we I I want to try to here. Let me give you my definition and then I'll unpack it a little bit. A disciple is a person who's transferred his loyalty or allegiance to King Jesus and is being transformed into his likeness and learning to faithfully represent his kingdom in every area of life. So that's my definition of a disciple. Uh I think what what I'm emphasizing, I think, right now, is the stuff that I think needs to be emphasized to make up for the problem or the to correct the problem that we spoke about earlier. And that is that when we talk about becoming like Jesus, the question is who's Jesus? You know, and I think we at the Disciple Nations Alliance, the very first core belief that we have is that Jesus is king. He's the Lord. And and his lordship isn't just over the spiritual parts of life. It's not just, he's not just king over the church or over my soul or spirit. He's king over all. Jesus said, you know, before he gave the Great Commission, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me as authority. He he has authority, power over everything. He owns everything, right? Because he created it all. He has he's the king. That's what it means to be king. He's the king, not just when he comes back, but right now he's the king. He's always been the king. Um, and so what we have to do is we have to say our becoming like Jesus is going to affect all of our lives, every part of our life, not just the spiritual, but every area of life, because he's the Lord over all of it. And so in every area, family, vocation, entertainment, spending my money, every single area, what does faithfulness to King Jesus mean in this area? And that's got to look different, by the way, than the way that the world looks, the fallen world, right? You know, if I'm a so, for example, if I'm a teacher in a school, I have to say, what would what does teaching look like to King Jesus? And how is that different than teaching or education in this fallen world? In this, you know, it's not enough just to pray at the beginning of the day. I've got to actually do my education differently in a way that honors King Jesus and the principles and precepts that he lays out in his word. So that there's that emphasis on the kingship of Christ over every area, and that's going to affect every part of my life. I think the other thing is just a disciple, I said, is a person who's transferred her the loyalty or allegiance to King Jesus. And this is this is getting to this area of we all are serving somebody or some God. There's always something on the throne of our lives, right? The disciple is somebody who surrenders, right? Whatever that thing is that's on the throne of their lives. It might be their themselves, their money, in the case of the rich young ruler, uh, their personal peace and prosperity, their 401k, whatever it is that is ultimately kind of on the throne of your life that you're putting your hope in, they're actively surrendering all of that, hands open, I'm I'm and I'm transferring my allegiance to Jesus. He gets the say over everything. Okay. So that that to me is really another important aspect of what a disciple is. It's this total surrender uh to Jesus and his ways. Um and and again, this faithfully, faithfully honoring and representing him in every area of of life, not just again the spiritual areas, church, theology, every area of life. Um so enough on that, guys. What do you think on about that?

Luke Allen 38:31

Well, I think that's just so good that you emphasized that. I I I when I said my definition, someone becoming Christ-like, um, I think that's still a good definition. But what I'm assuming is people won't have a sacred secular mindset when they hear that. Right. Now, because most people do have that because we can't assume that you have to say someone becoming Christ-like in all areas of life. And that breaks past Jesus, yeah, breaks it down too, right. And yeah, yeah, in King Jesus, yeah, yeah, the only king.

Speaker 39:00

Yeah. So I like that the the the qualify Jesus as the king because we talk about government. Right. We talk about rule. Right. When you talk about allegiance, it's God, right? Right. There's a rule, the rule of the kingdom that's precisely, Nelson.

Scott Allen 39:18

If I could just cut you off, I'm I'm I'm defining disciple within the context of the kingdom of God. Okay, that framework of the king and the kingdom of God. I do think it's the central message or theme of the entire Bible. And so I want to define discipleship within that framework of king and kingdom. I think that's really helpful. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry, I cut you off.

Speaker 39:39

And and and that then you have a decision. You then make your full allegiance. How can you not? If there is a king, right? How can you live half-heartedly not wholeheartedly, right?

Speaker 1 39:52

Right.

Speaker 39:52

Uh, and that's intentional, that's every day. That's not one decision, one time, right? There is a there is one decision that uh, of course, the Holy Spirit does his work of transformation of of convincing us of sin. And so there is that very important piece, a part, right, of us opening our hearts and and and making a decision. But it is that intentional everyday discipleship every day, right? Like allegiance, surrender to God and his ways, to the kingdom, right?

Scott Allen 40:22

Absolutely. You know, for me it it just matters a lot in my own life, you know, when I think of Jesus as king on the throne, um this uh powerful, all-powerful king. We often think, and I do too, and rightly, of Jesus as a friend, as a savior. He's all these things. But when I think of him as a king, my king, then it puts me in the posture of saying, I come before his throne and I bow down and I put my face on the ground and I say, What do you want? You know, you know, how you know how can I honor you today? What can I do to honor you today in every area? You know, so it's a different kind of mindset to me. And I think that's to me anyways, that's critical for discipleship. You're coming under the allegiance, uh, giving full loyalty to this new king, right? And and and whatever the king was in the past, we all have kings, right? You know, in a sense of ultimate authority or ultimate kind of some again, something something's always on the throne. You're giving that up, you're surrendering that. Yeah.

Speaker 41:27

Yeah, we just said that, Scott. Daryl Johnson is a professor at Trigent College. He wrote a book um called Discipleship on the Edge. And he and the book's about the book of Revelation, which he says is the best book of discipleship. But anyway, he talks about the worldview and lens, how we need to see, and he says, we need to see from the lens of Revelation 4 and 5. And in Revelation 4, when John sees, he sees that the universe has a center of command, control room, and in that control room there is a throne. In the throne, God is sitting on the throne, he's the king. And we need to see from that lens. And then from the lens of Revelation 5, so they put these two lenses, um, that uh God on the throne, at the center of this throne, is the lamb, is Jesus. Yes, right, and the lion and the lamb, this tension, right? Because when he turns to see the lion, when John is crying, he turns, they say, Here is the lion who who was victorious, and he turns to see the lion, he sees the lamb. So the tension, so these two lands, God is on the throne, he's the king, and he reigns as a lion and a lamb, right? Jesus at the center of the throne. So anyway, I I like I like what he says about that.

Scott Allen 42:50

Me too. Well, let's go on to the third question, if if uh if I may. Well, the question that we just answered is what is a disciple? And then we kind of contrasted that with how disciple is understood kind of in contemporary Christian circles today and the importance of the distinction there.

Defining Discipleship

Scott Allen 43:05

Um, but let's talk about the process. What is the what is discipleship? What does that mean? What does that look like? How would you define that? Um let me throw that over to you guys. I'll let whoever of you wants to begin on that one.

Speaker 43:18

I think one thing was said already. I don't know if it was Luke, but it's a process or you, Scott, but it's a process, it's an ongoing process. Right? Um, I think it's not disconnected from evangelism, it's not a sequence that we evangelize and we disciple, especially when you talk about disciplinations, right? I like uh even about individuals. Uh Daryl says Jesus is primary, the order he comes as secondary. Uh, so it is not disconnected. So you don't have to be able to do that.

Scott Allen 43:48

Talk about that. I think that's confusing for a lot of people, Nelson. This uh you were talking about the sequence, the the typical mindset is that people we do evangelism, people come to faith in Christ, make a profession of faith. And then and only then, you know, do you follow that with discipleship? But you're saying not necessarily. Um, sometimes discipleship, if you will, can begin and then somebody comes to faith. Uh explain what you're meaning by that. I just don't want people to be confused.

Speaker 44:16

Yeah, I have been I have had this conversation with friends, pastors, um, but it's this whole idea that uh and and as as the DNA says, right, we are Jesus' command is to go make disciples of all nations. And and and he give us uh uh there's God's ways for us to follow that makes uh individuals, families, communities, nations flourish, right? We find the principles in the Bible. So so and and what I said before in this podcast, I I uh yes, we are working to hopefully position people to make a decision for Christ to become Christians. But we are also working to make people more humans, and there is a great need for that these days, right? Because we have been robbed in our humanity through so many ideologies these days. So we are discipling people even before even before you evangelize. I think it's a natural, that's that's what the DNA helps me. It's a natural if you start to see show people that God has a way for us to be humans, fully and truly humans, that comes from his ways on in the Bible. Evangelism, sharing Christ becomes so natural. Because it is in the context of people being humans, as God created them to be, designed them to be, original, uh original design, right? Ultimate design. And then uh we can share Christ so naturally within. It's not that I grew up in a context that you would you'd meet someone. Uh there was I I I I may have shared this story with you. We used to go, I was in Brazil, and on Saturday evenings we'd go to these public squares to evangelize. And then we'd get the I was the leader, I would get the group together, we would pray and give some uh instructions, and then we would spread each one. And then there was one Saturday evening that this after we did that, this this friend came back to me after five minutes and said, Nelson, I I was looking for someone to evangelize. And I I saw this person sitting uh on the sidewalk, and and I decided to go talk to him, and and I decided to start my conversation saying, Jesus is the answer. And he said to me, and what is the question? Right. And Nelson, I and that was blank in my mind, I couldn't answer that question. Yeah, yeah. So if we are disciple people to be humans, that question comes in context, right? To evangelize. But so that's what I'm trying to I think we're discipling our families, as you say uh uh uh Scott, we're discipling our families, our our marriages, our communities, our nations, that and evangelism sharing Christ and sharing that, the gospel of the kingdom, that it's so together that we cannot separate.

Scott Allen 46:53

Yeah, I think that's that's that's I it's a helpful thing that I think to consider that this kind of strict sequence idea that we have, I think uh we need to take that maybe with a little bit of nuance, uh, this idea that somebody has to come to faith in Christ and then you start talking to them about what it means to be a follower of Jesus or what is biblical truth. Um, I was just thinking about, you know, Luke, just we don't really follow that sequence in our own families, right? I mean, I from the time that you guys are little kids, I'm I'm trying to walk faithfully as a disciple. I'm teaching you about King Jesus, I'm uh, you know, reading stories that hopefully shape your character, that talk about what is true, what is false, um, you know, trying to model. And at some point, you know, when you guys are ready to make a kind of personal ownership decision of that, that would be the kind of the conversion, I guess, you know, we we kind of bring it down to you and say, what do you choose? You know, do you choose to follow Jesus? Right. Um, so it doesn't follow that kind of linear process. And I think that that's not only necessarily true in our own families. I think that can be true with our friends at work. Um, I think of even, you know, Charlie Kirk, and he was out there on college campuses, and in a sense, what he was doing, you could say, was discipling people that weren't believers. You know, they were asking hard questions about whatever the issue was, you know, abortion, homosexuality, you name it. And he was giving true biblical answers to that. Not only was he giving true answers, but I think he was modeling it by, you know, I mean, people argue about this, but I think generally he was very gracious, respectful, you know, in the way that he treated people. He was modeling kind of a Christ-like behavior. And uh, you know, then of course he always challenged people, you need to come to faith in Christ, you know, but he didn't begin there like with the evangelistic message, you're a sinner, you need to come to faith in Christ. He started by, again, you might call it discipling, although some may argue. I don't know, you what are your thoughts, Luke, on all this?

Luke Allen 48:58

Yeah, I I I hear what you guys are saying. Um I do think it's important because we get this all the time, uh, this critique from people who say, you guys are you by emphasizing discipleship, you're missing the main thing, which is a relationship with Christ. And I'm and and again, I'm talking about the target analogy or the target imagery. The goal, the bullseye, you know, in a way, is salvation. Um it's a regenerate heart following Christ. Um, but there's so much more inside of that target that we're also talking about, and it's not exactly that you have to start with the bullseye and then work your way out. You can kinda I would say Jordan Peterson, in a similar way to Charlie Kirk, even though I don't think to this point that he would say he's a Christian, um, has discipled a lot of people because he's represented the the good design of God's world to our world. Um and that good design is you could say that's discipleship, is showing people how to live as fully human.

Scott Allen 49:58

Um and yet it it but it does break my heart. This is to your your previous point, Luke, that at some point people do need to make this, they need to bow and surrender entirely their allegiance to King Jesus, right? That's the salvation piece, right? Yeah. And evangelism is is giving them an invitation to do that, right? Yeah, that's the that's the main point. But it's not the only point. It needs to happen. So you're right, it's kind of tragic that Jordan Peterson is out there taking the Bible seriously, um, and in a sense, discipling people, but he hasn't bowed down. He doesn't invite people to bow down. I wish he would.

Speaker 50:33

Yeah, because what we're saying, Scott and Luke, is because transformation is not sustainable if it doesn't go through the door of redemption. That's our grand story, right? Correct. Creation, fall, brokenness, and redemption. Um, and and um we can try to transform and change things, we can be social activists, and but sustainable transformation only through the door of redemption, because it is redemption that reverses what the fall did to bring us back, right? Yes.

Scott Allen 51:02

Um and that the biblical word, I think, is or the theological word is regeneration. We have we're dead, as it says in Ephesians and our trespasses and sins. We're dead. We have to be regenerated and made alive, and that happens through um the process of surrendering your allegiance to Jesus Christ. You're made, you're you are made alive and you are filled with the Holy Spirit. And this is the process of sanctification, right? There's uh it's an important discussion, I think, to have in this discussion on discipleship. What is the difference between sanctification and discipleship? Um, but there's the work of God in our lives, right? Changing us, transforming us. I think discipleship is us, you know, it's the part that we can play ourselves and with the help of others to aid or to come alongside what the Spirit's already doing in our lives to make us Christ-like. Um but uh yeah, that needs to happen, that regeneration, Nelson, back to your point, has to happen. Yeah.

Luke Allen 52:00

I I yeah tell me if this is right. So um you can be Christ-like in the sense that you can represent some of the values of Christ in our world, um accidentally almost, and yet you are still an enemy of uh enemy of God. Is that what we're getting at here?

Speaker 52:19

Yeah, we have this conversation about cultural Christians these days. Like, what is a cultural Christian? Uh, and this is someone who may not even believe in Christ. Um, but he follows, he's like, in in a sense, he's like Christ following his teachings, right? Uh, because he sees that society will flourish upon these teachings, but he may not necessarily commit to give full allegiance to Jesus as the King.

Speaker 1 52:49

That's right.

Speaker 52:49

Um, that's right. So, and we have, I mean, we we talk about nominalism, we talk about cultural Christian and so on and so forth, right? Because that is a reality, that's part of the reality that we live in too with people.

Scott Allen 53:00

That's right. Yeah, I I I think that um it's again, it's essential. I think that you can you nowadays it's not uncommon to find people that are non-Christians that respect the teachings of the Bible, that um not only respect them, but really in some ways believe in them as opposed to you know, secularism, Islam, whatever it is, like the teachings of the Bible are what really are they really work, they're really good, you know, and they would say that and they would want to even see them put into practice. But I think that without being born again, let's just say that regeneration filled with the Holy Spirit, i i it's like the engine. That's the engine in some ways that drives the change, you know. You you you're not gonna be able to get where you want to go, right? Just on the principles and the teachings alone, you know. That's the story of the Old Testament. Yeah, right. Well said, Luke. Exactly, precisely. That that is well said. It's the story of the Old Testament, right? They were given the precepts, the principles, the laws, that uh, but they couldn't do it because they they had they did their hearts weren't regenerated,

Discipling Nations Without Triumphalism

Scott Allen 54:07

you know, and they didn't have the spirit living in them to exactly, exactly.

Luke Allen 54:12

I I I love the concept of discipleship, if you guys don't mind me doing a little rant here, um, because again, when we're talking about narrow versus a little bit broader, when we're talking about discipleship, we're talking about all things, all of creation. We always quote Abraham Kuper there is not a square inch in the whole domain of human existence over which Christ, who is sovereign over all, does not cry mine. Or in the words of C. S. Lewis, when he said, There is no neutral ground in the universe. Every square inch, every split second, is claimed by God and is counterclaimed by Satan. So both of those quotes completely shatter the idea of a sacred secular divide. And that's kind of where you have to start when you're talking about discipleship. So we're talking about all things. So the simplest definition I would say of discipleship is just the process of becoming Christ-like in all things. Um, that process, like you were talking about, Nelson. I really like that idea because discipleship isn't something we complete, just like sanctification. We never become Christ. It's just we become more and more like him. That's right. I would say a lot of discipleship is about after you're saved, what do we do now in this world? It's the what do we do now in this world part of things. Um, it's the process of becoming who we were saved to be in this world. Um and and I mean the follow-up question to that is if if if the if it's a process of becoming Christ-like, the obvious next question is who is Christ? And as we all know, he is fully God and fully man. He is the perfect human. So as we become more like him, we become more human. And and you've already said that many times, Nelson, but I just love that concept so much. Uh John Stott said it this way the richer our vision of Christ, the richer our discipleship will be. So the wholer the vision of Christ we have, the richer that discipleship will be. Um, or as C. S. Lewis put it in mere Christianity, give up yourself and you will find your real self. Look for Christ, and you will find him, and with him, everything else thrown in, and quote, so that everything else thrown in is what we're talking about. When you find Christ, everything else about life makes sense now. And in figuring that out is the process of discipleship. So it's about finding a real self, it's who God intends us to be. Uh it's finding out God's perfect plan for our life and the world. Um, or that's where we always use the phrase biblical worldview. So finding out God's perfect design for the world is living out a biblical worldview. Um, I would say a lot of discipleship is summarized in Romans 12 2, which is why we quote it all the time. And Romans 12 2 is written to Christians uh when it says, Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that there's that process. Um, so this is when we're talking about worldview transformation, that's what we're talking about. Um so discipleship changes how we think by thinking like Christ before it changes how we live, living like Christ.

Speaker 3 57:03

Yeah.

Luke Allen 57:03

I I actually I don't know if there's even an order to that. The way we think and the way we live both change simultaneously through discipleship. Um Francis Schaefer quote, I've just got a bunch of quotes here because I was gonna say you're kind of quotes today, Luke.

Scott Allen 57:17

Yeah.

Luke Allen 57:17

It's the fallacy of appealing to authority, as they would say in debate world. But since I don't have much authority, I just gotta quote the smart guys. Francis Schaefer, he said, Christianity Christianity is not merely involved with salvation, but with the total man in the total world. I love that one. Or Darren Miller, our founder, he just says it in a different way. Uh changed hearts lead to changed lives, and then changed lives lead to changed nations. Uh so this is where I would say you can kind of start unpacking the concept of discipling nations because that's always a tough one for people of uh discipleship's just about individuals, right? It's like, no, that in the Great Commission, that this is where the wording of the Great Commission makes sense. Like the wording here is purposeful by Jesus. It's his last words right before he goes back to heaven. You know, he's he's making his final speech here. Um, when he says, All authority in heaven is earth and earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age. So I would just say to that, just like individual discipleship is about becoming who God created us to be, living out his perfect design for us in our lives, discipling nations is about helping nations become who God created them to be. It is about seeking to see the nations live in God's perfect design for them. So it's we're talking a big vision now, like a the full target, you know. That's right.

Scott Allen 58:49

Um and then Yeah, I think, yeah, go ahead, Luke. Yeah, I'm sorry.

Luke Allen 58:52

Well, just to give this a little bit more biblical backing, because I know this is contentious when you start talking about discipling a whole nation. Um, that's why we are always quoting Colossians one, fifteen through twenty, where in a matter of verses, the amount of times you'll hear the phrase all things is almost hilarious. But I'll just read the whole thing here. Uh 15 through 20. The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, for in him all things were created, things in heaven, things on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities, all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. He is the head of the body, the church, he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything, including nations, he might have supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, including nations, or the things on earth, or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, which is shed on the cross. So end of my rant, but uh we're talking like the big target here, you know, the full the full picture.

Scott Allen 1:00:04

Well, and I think that's exactly where people miss the boat nowadays, Luke, especially in the West or in the United States. We are very individualistic. Um, and so everything kind of centers on the individual. Uh the Bible presents a picture of reality that doesn't in any way diminish the individual. It's very powerful, right? The individual matters. God knows us as individuals, knows us by name, uh, created us uniquely as individuals with unique personalities and gifts. So individual matters in the Bible for sure. But this is so we get that part, but what we don't get is the communal aspect, right? So he God created us as individuals, not to be Lone Rangers, but to be part of these bigger communities that start with our families, extended families, clans, tribes, and nations. And that's all part of God's design. The word nation actually is just a thread that runs through the entire Bible, right? God cares about individuals, he cares about nations. But then the question becomes, well, what do you guys mean by discipling nations, right? Nations, you can't disciple nations, you disciple individuals. Uh correct. You do, you start with individuals, but you see, this the biblical thinking is that individuals aren't lone rangers isolated from families and communities and nations and cultures and institutions. We ourselves are kind of uh part and parcel of this whole bigger fabric. So when we're talking about nations, we're talking about individuals living faithfully in such a way that they have a rippling influence on their families, on their communities, and on their nations. And when we talk about indicators, I like to think of indicators of it. What do you mean specifically about a nation that's discipled? Well, let me give you just one example, and this is what I focus on in my recent book, Ten Words to Heal Our Broken World. Words, right? The definition of words, like take the word human. Uh, this is a really important word. The Bible defines it, God defines it. Jesus is king, so he has right, he has the prerogative to give the true definition for these words because he's the creator of humans. He's gonna tell us what humans are. Now, if I go into my culture, let's say my city here in Bend, and I go into the public schools and I go through some classes, they're gonna have embedded within their curriculum and their teaching an understanding of human, a definition of human. The question is, is it true? Is it biblical? Uh, you know, if it's not, the process of discipling nations isn't for me as a Christian to say, well, that's okay. Uh it doesn't matter what is taught in the schools to kids in my city. Uh, you know, maybe they teach a definition of human beings that human beings are just highly evolved animals with no inherent purpose. Um, you know, they're just kind of physical machines, right? Okay, I it it would be wrong for me as a Christian. I wouldn't be faithful as a Christian to say, oh, that's okay. You know, that doesn't affect me personally because I believe that human beings are made in God's image and have dignity and word. That's what I believe. No, uh discipling nations means I've got to live that out faithfully in every area of life, as you said, Luke. And part of that means just one part of it, right? This is much bigger than this, but one part of that means that where I'm confronted with lies in the culture, uh, I have to be able to counter that and say, don't that's not true. Jesus uh defines human beings as image bearers of God with dignity and worth. And uh so the discipled nation, if you will, is a nation where over time Christians who are faithfully giving, bearing witness to the truth, living it out humbly, you know, generously, but it's begun to shift. And

Vocation Art Beauty And Public Truth

Scott Allen 1:03:50

so the definitions, the practices of that nation, the laws even begin to reflect the laws and the truth of King Jesus. So this I think is and nothing less than this is what Jesus has in mind for the Great Commission. We tend to limit the Great Commission to just individuals, right? I'm saved. Now I understand what a human is. Doesn't matter about the community or the nation or the culture around me. Uh wrong. Okay, no, that's not that's that that that would be unfaithful to Jesus' king, who's king overall. Yeah, you'd be able to do that. It's funny too. I get I get to rant now. I'm gonna rant here, Lou.

Luke Allen 1:04:32

We don't have a guest on today, so this is just the DNA ranting. Yeah, the DNA ranting.

Speaker 1:04:37

But this is an important point, uh Scott, because we we we need to be responsible, right? Right. I think about uh Klab Havel, the the the former um Czech communist dissident, first president of the Czech Republic, right? He used to say if you remove God from the picture, from society, then you cannot talk anymore about meaning or significance or purpose and responsibility.

Speaker 1 1:05:02

That's right.

Speaker 1:05:03

So the so it's a disponsibility, there's this these ripple effects that the individual has, right?

Speaker 1 1:05:09

That's right.

Speaker 1:05:10

That if if I don't take my responsibility seriously as a human being, as a Christian, um then someone else will, right? Then some someone else will be the blessed.

Scott Allen 1:05:22

We will be discipled, if you will, by the prevailing beliefs and worldviews of our nation. Again, Darrow, if the church doesn't disciple at the level of nations, whatever that prevailing worldview is of the nation is going to disciple us. That's just a fact, just a bare fact.

Luke Allen 1:05:37

And yeah, I do think it is kind of funny because we do hear Christians say this all the time, you know, like discipling nations is a distraction from what we're supposed to be doing here. We're our our goal is to focus off of integrating the gospel. Yeah. And then I'm like, uh, okay, so you know, when there's when they're trying to put, you know, male athletes in your your daughter's sports league, you know, the trans male athletes in your daughter's sports league. Like, what do you do? Just sit on the sidelines quietly? No, no, all these parents go and they they get angry about it, of course. Right. All of us would. And all we're saying is, well, that's part of discipling the nation. It's just representing God's good design to our world.

Scott Allen 1:06:13

Being faithful to King Jesus. He's king. Not just over me personally or over the church, but over the school, right?

Luke Allen 1:06:19

Over the game, most Christians who say this that it's a distraction to disciple our nations. I'm like, are you are you discipling your family? Right. Is that a distraction? Yeah. Are are you representing God's good design in your family? Are you seeking justice in your family? Are you seeking order? Are you seeking beauty for your family? Because if you're doing that, then I think you can wrap your head around the idea of discipling nations. It's a just a big family.

Scott Allen 1:06:40

It's just that it's the next circle beyond the family, right? And that's the way it is biblically, by the way, too, you know, that nations are just kind of an extended group of families, really, if you will, you know. And nations have certain things in common with one another. They with with within themselves. They have a common language, a common culture, um, right? The common law, right, typically. So it's just taking all of that and putting that all under the lordship of Jesus Christ and doing what I can do to make that happen. That's what it means to disciple.

Luke Allen 1:07:11

Just doing what you can do is important, though, there, Dad, because a lot of people will say, well, that sounds real triumphalistic, you know, putting it under the lordship of Christ, like you just said. And it's it's again, this discipleship is a process. It's a never-ending process. We live in a fallen, sinful world where the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion. I think we live in a fallen world. So are we ever going to fully disciple a nation? Fully? No. Just like we're not going to fully disciple ourselves. Or we won't see ourselves be fully discipled. But it's just what we're commanded to. It's a great commission. Go and do this. Are you going to do it perfectly? No. But we've still been commanded to do it, and that's what we're here for. So let's do it. You know, in no ways are we trying to be triumphalistic. I think that's always a funny argument when people bring that up.

Scott Allen 1:07:55

Yeah, I do too, Luke. I get kind of tired of that. You know, it's just like it seems to be kind of a cop-out, you know. Oh, you're just talking about some kind of like Jesus is going to reign over everything perfectly, and you know, you know. No, we're talking about I I like your parallel to individual discipleship and sanctification. It's a process, it's lifelong, it's never complete. There's lots of ups and downs. Uh the same thing is true with nations. It's just exactly true with nations. So uh it's never complete. There's lots of ups and downs. Uh, you know, it's it's not this linear, just getting better and better and better. Um, that being said, you know, if you look back historically, you can see, like, take the the example of the West, the Western nations. We've been deeply influenced by the Bible. And I think we can trace from that so many things we take for granted. You know, respect for the individual, uh, you know, uh a large degree of our prosperity, um, you know, a justice system that, at least until recently, was largely just and kind of functioned, you know. Um, so a lot of things, you know, la low, uh relatively low corruption, uh, you know, caring for the most vulnerable, right? I mean, all of these things didn't just happen. They didn't spring out of thin air, right? These are the pro the fruits of a process of discipleship at the level of nations over generations. Uh it can go down, and we're seeing it go down in our time. It doesn't, you know, just because we've seen progress doesn't mean it's inevitable that there's gonna be progress. It can go down. Um, the question then becomes what what will happen in my lifetime, right? Am I okay with this uh this devolution, this lack of, you know, this the fact that things are getting worse, or am I gonna say, no, I'm gonna stand against that? You know, what will we do in our lifetime? Let me let me if I could just switch. I haven't given you my definition of discipleship. Let me just give this to you guys, if I could. Sorry, kind of swing back to that. So I've I've defined discipleship this way. Discipleship is a lifelong process, so I'm agreeing with you guys there on that for sure. Discipleship is a lifelong process of helping people become faithful apprentices of Jesus, who increasingly submit every area of their life to his lordship, who begin to embody his character and participate with him in advancing his kingdom and the world. So that's my des definition of discipleship. I I again the lifelong process. I like the word apprentice. I know some people don't, but to me, apprentice, when when I think of apprentice, not in a biblical sense, but just what is an apprentice. An apprentice is somebody who comes along, a master, somebody who's really good, who's got something down. You could think of uh a boat builder, right? An apprentice comes alongside this professional boat builder and just watches him and learns from him. You know, you can think of the boat builder, the expert taking his hand and showing, no, you pound it like this. So there it's the knowledge and the doing. I mean, uh so that that apprenticeship idea I've always liked. Um, but then again, this increasingly submitting every area of their life to his lordship. Again, I think that has to be stated explicitly today, Luke, because of the background, sacred secular, you know, music that's playing, if you will, this background music. So that has to be directly kind of countered. Um, it's not just the spiritual part of my life, not just church attendance, Bible reading, etc., every area. That opens up all sorts of new things, by the way, when we think about discipleship that most Christians never think about. What does it mean to be a Christian doctor and how does that look differently from the way medicine is practiced in my hospital clinic community? Uh, maybe you've never thought about that. And it it has to go beyond just, well, I'm a Christian, I pray in the morning, I try to witness to my my co-workers. No, the actual practice itself, right? What what's what would be different for a disciple of Jesus, an apprentice of Jesus, as a doctor? Most people, most Christians, I would submit, have never even asked that question. And it's certainly not taught in churches. Like, here, let me teach you what it means to be a doctor, uh, a lawyer, a parent, uh, what whatever it is, you know, very little on that. Don't you think, guys?

Luke Allen 1:12:17

Yeah, I mean, this is where it gets fun. We just did a a campaign on social media talking about how to have a biblical worldview or uh, you know, a discipleship view of the World Cup, of athletics and of sports. And it's like the Bible absolutely talks about those things because the Bible talks about all of life. Again, all of life, all things. All of life, all things. You can talk about art. I love art. So when I understood this concept that the Bible cares about art and has has a lot of implications for the artist, it was so fun to understand. You know, it's it's combining something I'm passionate about in my relationship with Christ, which is the main thing in my life, and saying there's no separation there.

Scott Allen 1:12:52

Who doesn't want that? Let me pause you really quick, Luke. I just want to, because I think what you're saying is so important. You've got this passion for art. Think about all the people sitting in our churches, right? They've got passions. But I'll often when we approach them with the topic of discipleship, it doesn't even touch their passion, right? You know, you you you know, it's all about theology and you know, trying to again very important. But but again, what this is opening up a whole new, when you when you put it under the rubric of all things, and that includes art, and what does it mean to be a faithful follower of Jesus as an artist? That opens up whole new avenues of discipleship that most people have never even considered. And and and like you said, Luke, it's life-giving. It really made a difference for you. Like this really touched me.

Speaker 1:13:36

Um and the whole the whole teaching of the DNA, right? The how how how ideas um in culture they progress, right? Start with the thinkers and then the artists are the first ones to catch those ideas. But also the quote that uh beauty is the portal to truth and goodness. Right. So the whole idea there's something that got put in beauty in the arts that we sometimes miss in our discipleship. Um and the other thing I was gonna say to what are you saying previously, uh Scott, this whole language that they use that we need to move from Christianity being uh private faith to public truth, right? Exactly. So that's the other idea of discipleship that we need to understand.

Scott Allen 1:14:21

Like it's not just private faith, it's public truth for all people, Christians or not. That's correct.

Speaker 1:14:27

Exactly, for all people. And then in discipleship, we're equiping people, right? Not only Christians, we actually equip people, right, to to the soul, to God's ways that make humans and nations flourish.

Scott Allen 1:14:40

Luke, if I could just come back and piggyback on your your beauty and art. I I I remember when we had the podcast with Jenny Park many months ago now, she said something that really stuck with me. She said, as Christians, we talk about truth and goodness or righteousness, holiness, truth, goodness, and beauty, you know, are characteristics of God's kingdom. But our discipleship almost is entirely focused on first and foremost truth, kind of what's true and what's false. And then to maybe a lesser degree, we tend to focus on goodness, like what does it mean to live a righteous, holy life, right? So we do focus on that. What is entirely neglected? Beauty, right? And she when she said that I thought, oh my gosh, you're so right. We don't even talk about that. Like how many discipleship curriculums even mention that as a concept? Right?

Luke Allen 1:15:32

Yeah, it really opens your eyes. The avenue of beauty for reaching people, and I totally agree that beauty is the gateway to goodness and truth. Beauty is what appeals to the imagination. It it cuts past people's arguments, it cuts past our biases, it cuts past our fears, and it just goes straight to the imagination. Watching a movie, like you are engrossed in a movie, a good movie, you're reading a book, you're you're there, you know. Absolutely. And and God wants to reach us through his beauty, which is true beauty, and have us our imaginations be overwhelmed by it. It's it's amazing. It's incredible. Absolutely. No, it's not a good idea. And yeah, if if discipleship isn't appealing to the imagination, to beauty, it's seriously missing out. And I would say it's it's lopsided because it's missing. Uh, truth without beauty is partial truth.

Scott Allen 1:16:20

I again these categories that we've mentioned before, I think they're God designed categories, you know, in terms of what makes us human. You know, this idea of logos, ethos, and pathos, all of those are important and vital to our humanity. Lagos has to do with that logical, you know, rational, kind of conceptual Nelson truth, right? Um, logos, you know. Uh uh ethos has to do with what's right, what's good, what's morally good. But but this pathos is the one that's neglected. This is the one that uh this is the this and this is in some ways the deepest level. This is the the deep feelings and emotions. And this is why you said correctly, Luke. I think that um, you know, that the you can you can beauty uh speaks to our pathos, our our feelings, our emotions in a way that kind of almost bypasses uh the logos and the athos, you know. So it's so important, but we almost entirely neglect that aspect of what it means to be human. Well, guys, um this has been really great. It's really fun. I I just appreciate uh both of you guys' wisdom, great insights today. Luke, great quotes. I got more. Not not to mention we have a whole bucket of them here. Not to mention great quotes, but great insights from yourself, Luke. We're gonna have to start as Luke Allen says, you know, we're gonna have to start doing that now. Oh boy, watch what I'm saying.

Luke Allen 1:17:43

I I do have one more thing

Practical Next Step And Closing

Luke Allen 1:17:45

to say, actually. Um because the discipleship, it it's it was fun to talk about today. It's um it's this big picture, it's beautiful, but the actual how do I live this out part of things um often gets a little bit complicated. Um, but I would say that sometimes it is simpler than we think. Um it's this this practice of living it out. To help you guys with that, we created a short animated video that kind of walks through the basics of how to live the Christian life. Uh it's a video on YouTube, it's called From Changed Hearts to Changed Nations, a Christian's Purpose. And it walks through this process of when the heart is changed and then the mind is changed, then the person's life is changed and the world around them changes. That's that ripple effect we were talking about. And it gets a little bit into the practical application of that. It's only three and a half minutes. It's on YouTube, it's linked right down there in the description. Highly recommend that you guys go check that out and please share it. Um, if this concept of what we're calling a fuller vision of discipleship is interesting to you and you don't feel like sharing an hour plus podcast with someone, even though we would like it if you shared this episode, uh, sharing this three and a half minute video is a great way to just get this idea of a little bit of a bigger picture of discipleship out to your friends and maybe start a discussion with them. So again, linked in the description, and it's called From Changed Hearts to Changed Nations, a Christian's Purpose.

Scott Allen 1:18:59

Well, great, Luke. Uh, thank you. And Nelson, thank you as well. Nelson, um, great to have you with us. Uh Nelson was uh he's a disciple of Jesus Christ, but also a disciple of the great J.I. Packer. So it's always so great to have your insights and perspectives uh as we talk through these kinds of things. So yeah, God bless you guys both. Have a great day.