Wellness Musketeers

Beyond the Buzz - Alcohol: Friend or Foe?

• David Liss • Season 4 • Episode 3

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The alcoholic beverage in your glass has shaped cultures, sparked celebrations, ruined lives, and sparked fierce debate for millennia. In this illuminating conversation, our panel of experts cuts through the noise to deliver evidence-based insights about alcohol's true impact on our bodies and society.

Medical expert Dr. Richard Kennedy lays out the science with crystal clarity: "Probably the most important point is that alcohol in moderation is okay." He defines moderation precisely—one daily drink for women, two for men—while explaining the fascinating biological reasons behind these gender differences. The doctor doesn't shy away from alcohol's darker side either, linking excessive consumption to increased cancer risks while debunking common myths about alleged health benefits.

Our economist Kettle Hviding quantifies what many fail to consider: alcohol abuse costs societies approximately 2.5% of GDP—billions upon billions in healthcare burden, lost productivity, and human suffering. Yet banning it outright, as Prohibition demonstrated, creates its own problems. The panel explores how different cultures develop healthier relationships with alcohol, contrasting France's integration of wine with meals against the weekend binge-drinking patterns common in Nordic countries and America.

For fitness enthusiasts, fitness expert, "Aussie" Mike James delivers hard truths about alcohol's impact on physique goals and athletic performance. Beyond the obvious caloric content, he explains how alcohol compromises recovery and fine motor skills, noting elite athletes increasingly abstain entirely during competitive seasons.

Perhaps most compelling are the psychological insights—how alcohol reduces inhibitions through an initial euphoric state, explaining both its appeal as a social lubricant and its role in disastrous decision-making. Dr. Kennedy's emergency room stories, including a 350-pound intoxicated man who jumped from a three-story building on a $10 bet, vividly illustrate the point.

Whether you're reassessing your relationship with alcohol or simply curious about its true effects, this episode provides the balanced, evidence-based perspective you need to make informed choices. Subscribe now and join the conversation about one of humanity's most complex relationships.

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Dr. Richard Kennedy:

I had a guy who was 350 pounds, who was at a party maybe four blocks from the hospital. They'd obviously been drinking. The guy challenged him to jump out of the window from the three-story building and over the wrought iron fence onto the curb and he bet him $10 that he could do this. So the guy jumped. He's 350 pounds, his legs got over that wrought iron fence. His body didn't. His body landed and went right through the wrought iron fence. So they had to cut the wrought iron fence to bring him in because it was still an impiled person.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

The big dude. He wasn't feeling anything. He was like I'm ready to go, Let me go, but he was drunk as a skunk.

"Aussie" Mike James:

Hello and welcome to Wellness Muffeteers. I'm Ozie Mike James Today we're diving into one of the most debated topics in health and wellness alcohol. Alcohol is a substance that's deeply embedded in our cultures, celebrated for its social benefits but also associated with significant risks, both health and societal costs.

"Aussie" Mike James:

Joining me are my co-hosts, our medical expert, dr Richard Kennedy, our economist, kettle Hiding and David Litt, a personal trainer and wellness professional. Together, we'll explore alcohol's health impacts, societal implications, economic consequences and its role in fitness and wellness. To get the ball rolling, guys, as we can see, there's a bit of background there. Alcohol touches every aspect of life, from health to economics to to wellness. Let's start by discussing why this topic's important for each of us, and let's get you on the ball here, dr K. What are the most important?

"Aussie" Mike James:

considerations about alcohol that everybody needs to understand.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

Probably the most important point is that alcohol in moderation is okay, and in the United States defining alcohol in moderation is for women, one drink per day, no more than seven drinks in a week is okay. For men, two drinks per day and no more than 14 in a seven-day period is what we would consider moderate intake. Now the problem with alcohol consumption and its relationship to health risk because you hear about how certain amounts of alcohol have been known to decrease the risk of cardiovascular disease to decrease the risk of cardiovascular disease.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

And we talk about that with respect to wine in particular, because spirits and beer doesn't necessarily improve the risk or reduce risk. Now, you can pretty much take almost any cancer that you want to talk about, but particularly breast, head and neck cancer, liver cancer, pancreatic cancer All of those have been associated with increased risk of cancer when you increase your alcohol consumption. So probably the most important thing is moderation is the key.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

Now, that being said, most of the studies in the United States have all been observation, so these are not studies that have been retrospective placebo control. So these are more observations that you take a person who has a particular disease and in the questioning of their health you ask about alcohol intake and then you get a connection between large numbers of people who do excessive consumption and have an association with these certain conditions, and that's why we look at it.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

And again, it's when people do things in excess and pretty much with almost anything it has trouble to get us into trouble, and so alcohol and moderation is the key. Now, what's considered an adequate drink? So for beer, in the United States, 12 fluid ounces is considered a normal glass of beer, or 355 milliliters wine. Five fluid ounces, that's five fluid ounces. We demonstrated by our colleague Kendall Seem to be four fluid ounces 448 milliliters Distilled spirits.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

That at least 80 proof Whiskey, scotch brett, things like that. Bourbon, one and a half fluid ounces or 44 milliliters is what is considered a standard, typical drink. Now, one of the other caveats that I always say that a person who drinks alcohol on an empty stomach has a greater chance of having more of the untoward effects of the alcohol versus the person who drinks with a meal or with food, because, again, alcohol is broken down in the liver and there's a chemical. And the reason women can take less, need to take less drinks is because they have one, their smaller frame, and thereby most of the time have a smaller muscle mass. But they also have less of the enzyme that is responsible for breaking down alcohol in a body called lactic dehydrogenase or DIC.

"Aussie" Mike James:

Okay, that's good, let's get into it. Later on, Dr K, We'll talk about the specific impact alcohol has on major organs, but let's turn to kettle right now. Major organs of the body I'm talking about there. Let's turn to kettle. From an economic perspective, kettle what are the biggest challenges alcohol poses to society?

Ketil Hviding:

So it's true. I mean there are quite a lot of estimates about the cost to society and they are quite high. I think I've seen some estimates about 2.5% of GDP. It probably doesn't mean a lot to most people. It's the cost to society, mostly the fact that actually people drink too much and they drink and they drive, for instance.

Ketil Hviding:

All of that is important cost there's also important cost in, actually, when people drink so much that they cannot work and they need to be rehabilitated and things like that. So that's the economic aspect, or economic, societal aspect. All societies as we know, the societies we live in, alcohol is a part of these societies. We cannot I cannot remember the prohibition I don't think anyone here can but there was an attempt of trying to get rid of it because it's a reaction of completely. There was getting out of control. But every society is in in some way or another that we know are trying to struggle with imposing some moderate behavior when it comes to alcohol and I think that's something we can discuss as well and has to do with it can be quite addictive.

Ketil Hviding:

So if one drink easily leads to a second drink and a third drink, it doesn't have a very clear kind of oh, this is enough. Like when you eat food at least normal food.

"Aussie" Mike James:

Okay, in terms of alcohol in conversations about fitness and personal wellness. One of the key factors here is alcohol is quite calorific. One 12-ounce bottle of Heineken because it's one of my favorite in bikes is 140 calories per bottle.

Dave Liss:

You take five or six of those a night.

"Aussie" Mike James:

That's a significant calorie consumption and of course, allied with that, if you're out and about, it's just a bar or something you'll tend to munch along with something with that, something salty or fries or whatever else, a bar food or so forth. So again it becomes the alloy calories add up there. So I guess, in terms of the fitness space, again it's about moderation, as Dr Kennedy says, but it's also very important to keep in context because if you're pursuing a fitness program, if you are extensively taking an alcohol, your motor activities, your fine motor skills are definitely going to decrease because your reaction times won't be the same and, of course, you're more likely, I would say, if you're recovering from a hangover or whatever, to incur an injury and something like that.

"Aussie" Mike James:

So moderation is the key and I would say I've got nothing scientifically to back this up. But I would say, if you're really looking for that six-pack, look that everyone is a name with these days. I think drinking regular alcohol, beer in particular, is not going to be a factor that helps with that. In fact, I would then say it's damn near impossible.

Ketil Hviding:

I have a comment and partly a question, because you mentioned it has a lot of calories, but it also has a lot of sugar.

"Aussie" Mike James:

Yes.

Ketil Hviding:

The one thing is actually it affects your calories, but also it can lead to spike in your blood sugar. Yes, that has other impacts and also that in fact impacts probably the metabolism as well as how you actually process food and to that that was mentioned here, that if you eat that's what the positive things from France here it's mostly combined with food. Even when you have an aperitif, you drink before the meal. You always have something with it to do and that you also feel that you don't get as quickly drunk.

"Aussie" Mike James:

It's important.

Ketil Hviding:

Also. It's probably better for your body.

"Aussie" Mike James:

But I would suggest, if you're looking to get into a physique contest, certainly beer drinking wouldn't be pursued if you're looking at it on a regular basis. But other than that, again, it is about moderation.

Dave Liss:

I'm still working on my six-pack, though that glasses of wine is not helpful, the one you drink or the one you wear.

Ketil Hviding:

I don't know, that's yeah.

Dave Liss:

Yeah.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

That's probably Kettle. One wouldn't think that you would go into one of your fencing competitions without having drunk beforehand, your target might end up being a whole lot bigger than it really is.

Dave Liss:

One thing that's common is people like they're a little nervous about something they're going to do, like they're going on stage or going to do something they'll do a shot. I don't know how we use alcohol for those things.

"Aussie" Mike James:

If that's an individual thing, I say Dr K, right, I'd say so.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

think of it this way For a lot of people, particularly the first few times that you drink alcohol for the first time. One of the things it does, is it gives you initially this sort of euphoric sort of state of mind, or this very relaxed state of mind, so people's inhibition tends to be lessened.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

So that's why it's not surprising that there are sometimes there are people, although they should never do this if they're going to give a talk or a presentation might actually take a shot beforehand because they found in the past they are more relaxed and therefore they can focus and get into whatever it is that they're doing, that's not a good thing, but it's like anything else. Alcohol has initially a high, but then, if you continue to drink, it also can give you a depressive effect as well.

Dave Liss:

What is it about alcohol that causes people to drop their ink to become violent. Like bar fights and house abuse and things like that. What is it about alcohol that makes people more violent?

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

I don't know if it's that it necessarily makes people more violent, but you reduce their inhibitions. So, if you think of it, take a person who happens to be two people happen to be in a bar and having a disagreement over whatever While they're in the bar they may disagree and be also because there are other, more reasonable heads in the room will basically intervene and push people away.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

take them away etc intervening, push people away, take them away, etc. But if you're inhibited not inhibited, I should say and someone is challenging you all of a sudden you get this hero thing. I can do anything. You get this invincible mindset, and so throwing a punch at that time or shoving somebody at time, you don't think twice about it because you're inhibited. You can take the other avenue. You're in a bar or a club and you've had one or two drinks and there's this young lady across the room that you've been noticing all evening, initially because you're afraid of being rejected, you don't say anything.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

But then, after you've had a couple of drinks, you're not really concerned about that and you'll walk up to that person, introduce yourself. You might even say can I buy you a drink, boy? I've been standing here watching you all evening I just thought that you would really like this drink, so I took the opportunity to bring that over to you Now. That might not work, but at the same time it takes away even if you get rejected, you don't go into a depressive state because you don't care Because it's like ah, I tried, it didn't work and you move on to the next.

"Aussie" Mike James:

I'm learning something every day with Dr Kennedy.

Dave Liss:

As an emergency room. As an emergency room physician, do you have any stories from people that you came across in the ER Plenty?

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

The problem is you have to remember many times in the emergency room you're seeing people who are intoxicated, so they're belligerent If their natural behavior is to be aggressive they're more aggressive If their natural behavior is to be timid they actually can be more withdrawn.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

I agree, dr K. I agree. You'll see this all the time, or you'll see people who would like to. They've always had to thought boy, if I could just run across the street and jump over that car, I could do it, whereas common sense says I haven't run in six years. If I go and run and try to jump on it, I'm probably going to miss it and get hit by it. But if you're and best example, I had a guy who was 350 pounds, who was at a party, maybe four blocks from the hospital, and this guy challenged him to. They obviously had been drinking. The guy challenged him to jump out of the window from and this is think of it, it's a brownstone, so it's a three-story building and it challenged him to jump from the second floor to jump over the wrought iron fence onto the curb and he bet him ten dollars that he could do this.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

So this is 1987 or so and the guy he jumped he didn't now remember, I told you he's 350 pounds. His legs got over that wrought iron fence. His body didn't. His body landed and went right through the wrought iron fence. So they had to cut the wrought iron fence to bring him in.

Dave Liss:

Because he was still in his body.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

The big dude. He wasn't feeling anything. He was like I'm ready to go, Let me go, but he was drunk as a skunk.

Dave Liss:

Why? You know?

"Aussie" Mike James:

I tend to agree, Dr K. It was very much a pop culture and. I always believed that aggression. It was usually people who had that sort of trait inborn into them, I think, who were aggressive by nature and without alcohol's impact on major organs like the brain, the liver. We often hear about how alcohol affects the heart and the immune system.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

Yes. So alcohol, you know, there have been some studies that have found that moderate drinkers again these are the men two drinks a day, women one a day, and again we're also talking about, in the united states, everyone over the age of 21. Technically, if you're under 21, you're not supposed to be doing this at all, okay. And so research has found that it lowers mortality. The moderate drinkers lowers the mortality rates compared to people who have abstained from drinking, versus those who are heavy drinkers.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

Now, because there have been no studies to counter, that we don't know how accurate that really is, so it doesn't mean so if a person reads that, they might say gee if I'm an adult drink, but I hear that people who drink, men who drink

Dave Liss:

two drinks a day. If I start drinking two drinks a day, I may decrease my mortality.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

That's not necessarily true. You don't know that, because it's never just about one thing. You have to take into account the person's entire history, their family history, how they function at work, what kind of work they do there's so many what their mental health history is like all of those things play a role. So research has also found that the risk of diabetes is lower in those who consume alcohol moderately. Now I question that, because I don't understand the logic in that.

Ketil Hviding:

But again remember, these are observational studies, so that you sort of essentially mean, it was a study that maybe they initially said we're going to look to see if people who eat a certain way

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

and drink a certain way and compare them to another group of people who are supposedly eating a certain way, but drink a little differently what percentage of them get diabetes versus those who don't. So that's what it's implying. You have to read further to see how accurate that is, but probably the one group health issues that have been shown to be beneficial is that evidence has always suggested that mild to moderate alcohol consumption decreases the risk of coronary heart disease and thereby cardiovascular mortality, and so this goes back to what I used to say two glasses of wine a day.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

One to two glasses of wine a day decreases the risk of cardiovascular mortality. And they looked at this and I think it was the French population, pairing it here to the US, and that their level of heart disease is less than that in the United States. So they made it. And again, there are other factors that involve. The French diet is very different than the American diet. Therefore, forgetting about the types of food, just the quantity that people consume is very different than the quantity that's consumed here in the US. It's like there's more obesity in the US, there's less in Europe. Well, why is that? We know that. All you have to do is anytime they show a picture of any of the cities of Europe.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

people are on bikes, people are walking, people you know are. They're always active. You see that People sitting every day at lunchtime drinking wine. I have plenty of friends who live in France and are from France who drink wine in the morning, in the middle of the day and at night. It's just part of the culture and many of those people, because I know them as patients, are healthy, despite what we would think might be excessive amounts of alcohol intake.

Dave Liss:

So take it into consideration. How is it in Norway and Australia versus America as far as alcohol Kettles from Norway?

Ketil Hviding:

Yeah.

Dave Liss:

Norway Notice versus.

Ketil Hviding:

America as far as alcohol. Kettles from Norway. Yeah, norway, notice Norway. It's much closer to America in a way that it is not something drinking alcohol is not necessarily part of you. Actually, it might be a little different from Australia, but more like America. It's not something of your daily life but you drink more when there's a party. It's more weekend drinking and it's larger quantities during the weekend, and it's you know, whereas, for instance, in France, you drink with meals and it's more often, and also the attitude towards drunkenness is very different.

Ketil Hviding:

So here in France it's considered really bad form and also somewhat loss of control. That you actually get drunk is a loss of control, Whereas in Norway it's okay. So that's like in America. But you're looking for a whole different thing when you drink In France. It's more about a bit with the meal or maybe in a social setting.

Ketil Hviding:

a glass, two and you stop with that, but the total quantity is going to be more just a comment on on but maybe mike wants to talk about australia, but a comment on these studies. So, of course, when it comes to diet and all of these things, and maybe even, to some extent, things like smoking, it's very hard to do double blind tests and the kind of tests. Absolutely.

Ketil Hviding:

So there's always going to be some problems with these things, but as you said, one thing important is to try to figure out what is the mechanism by which you can actually say the causality goes one way or not the other. So the problem also, when you're comparing a population that does so much things different, yes, also, when you're comparing a population that does so much things different, yes, it's very hard to say that it's because of the alcohol, because nearly everyone is drinking one or two glasses.

"Aussie" Mike James:

Yeah, oh yeah, In Australia, remembering that no, I left Australia 30 years ago it might have changed, but certainly the Australia I grew up in was very much a hard drinking sort of culture.

"Aussie" Mike James:

You worked hard and you played hard. Even if you played a sport, you went to the bar after it and many beers, and it was just considered part of life. Your Fridays and Saturdays and so forth, you know, just considered normal. And I was going to bring this up later. But I think maybe now is an opportune moment to bring it up. When we talk about the moderation, I guess when you're in a culture similar to that and when you're in that sort of atmosphere and we like to live in a real world, people are people that to you know what Dr Kennedy was referring to, the one standard drink, et cetera, that sort of goes out the window. I can't remember anyone counting drinks unless you were driving. You didn't drink and drive when we're in a social situation in Australia.

"Aussie" Mike James:

So moderation when it did become a problem. I was very fortunate I was pointed to in my physical education degree. I was pointed to a graph or a reference called the Jelnik curve and it was devised by Dr Morton Jelnik and created and developed the Jelnik curve back in the 50s and it was later revived by a British psychiatrist Matt Galat, and it's a pictorial chart that represents the typical phases of becoming addicted to alcohol.

Dave Liss:

But what this does is.

"Aussie" Mike James:

it outlines specific behaviors where you are going beyond moderation and it talks to actual, specific behaviors like memory blackouts, urgency of your first drinks, and progresses along there to where you actually need addictions, birth-blood treatment, and I always found it both then growing up and now when I'm in a wellness field and as a wellness coach. If anyone comes up and asks me, they maybe think they have a drinking problem. I refer them to this show and it makes them think about it a bit more. It points to specific behaviours.

"Aussie" Mike James:

The one or two glasses. I understand where they have to be guidelines, but again, in a social situation they go out the door and they don't get listened to. So this sort of chart really puts you in a position and makes you see where you stand in terms of maybe you're not too moral, maybe you do need a special hotel, and that's when you would go to an addiction specialist.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

But it's very interesting. I'd really point to where the listener's looking.

"Aussie" Mike James:

It's called the Addiction and Recovery, the Jelnik.

Dave Liss:

And we'll put that in episode notes and put a link to it there.

"Aussie" Mike James:

Yeah, but yeah, in Australia, even for sports teams, it was very much a hard-drinking sort of culture. I think it still is, although I would say it's just more. The younger people are a bit more refined than we were and they're probably more into the wines. Now I think drink driving rules are very strict now, and so that may restrict it somewhat now Certainly growing up it was very much a pop culture.

Dave Liss:

Does alcohol affect people or mean different things to a person's body at different ages? I don't like in our country or the United States you're not the drinking age for alcohol, for liquor, is 21. Is there any like health reason for that? And the different countries look at age of drinking differently than we do. And if you're an older person or 20 year old-old, does your body deal with it differently? A man or a woman?

"Aussie" Mike James:

With 18 in Australia.

Dave Liss:

we do that much and I can certainly tell you Dr Kennedy's got more of a science, but I can certainly tell you definitely your tolerance decreases as you get old and like a lot of things, but I'll let Dr Kennedy speak to the medical basis of it.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

I think that people are first of all. I think that 21, you're becoming an adult in this country. 21 is that age that allows you to do a lot of things that you weren't able to do before, and they think that's at that level where you're becoming more mature and more responsible. As to why they do 21, because, yeah, I don't think. Australia is the only country in the world that uses 18, as a lot of their other countries that 18.

Dave Liss:

England, I believe Middle, and in France, if I'm in high school, can I have a drink of a capillary 18.

Ketil Hviding:

18, yeah, Well, it's not. The bar will not serve you and they can get into trouble. Now, the bar will not serve you and they can get into trouble, but I would say in practice in the restaurants, if you're in the family, they are very relaxed about it. So the 18 is not really portraying reality. You would find younger people drinking and it's not considered to be a problem.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

Mr Rennie, is there any? And I would think that again here in the. States. One of the reasons that what makes a lot of sense is that a lot of the motor vehicle accidents in the younger people happen. There was an association with alcohol and or drugs, and so they tried to get a handle on it by using 21, because we know that every college campus, although they're supposed to be alcohol free, you know that there are literally pubs just off the campus ground most of the time.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

So it's not that it's not available and people find ways to get things, because all you need is one person who's 21, to walk into the supermarket or the grocery store to pick up a six-pack beer.

"Aussie" Mike James:

I often wonder, though it's the way we look at it from a society's viewpoint. When I was in Germany the way I saw the Germans. They were very liberal with their drinking laws and I saw people going before work into the train station going for a beer before work drinking A man in a business suit he'd been at work all day. He was standing on the train platform with a can of beer.

"Aussie" Mike James:

Now here or even in Australia, you would look at that with Gantz and you would say, oh God, that's a bit of a problem. But there it really was considered just a drink and it was no big deal. So I guess it's the attitude to it here in America, with the college groups and everything. It's pound them down, let's get drunk and so forth. But I don't think it's German. Some cultures have a much more sensible attitude to it, I think.

Dave Liss:

It's interesting, I know when I was in college I knew some people. I'm sure you met people. Their parents were very strict. They lived in a home Maybe it was a religious home or whatever that they could not drink.

Dave Liss:

It was like you were committing murder if you had a shot, if you had a glass of beer, and then when they went to college, they went berserk were overcompensated for being in that strict environment and I think if you're in a place where it's like less forbidding, it's you know, maybe there's some restraints that are natural, because it's not something that's forbidden.

"Aussie" Mike James:

It's like when we were in Highsville not the Christian Brothers Catholic School you had to have short back and sides. What did everyone do once they left school? They grew hair down to their shoulders.

Dave Liss:

They'd become servers and if you looked awful, but we were rebelling, we're going to let it grow.

"Aussie" Mike James:

It's pretty much the same thing, I think but turning a little bit to the economic side of thing, kettle, what is the economic burden of alcohol related diseases on health care systems?

Ketil Hviding:

can taxation or regulation help mitigate those type of costs. Yeah, it's, as I mentioned before. The biggest thing has to do with what happens when you are drunk or you've been drinking too much. It's I mean, there's always there was some health've been drinking too much. I mean there's always some health effects of drinking too much and people have illnesses. But it's the amount of drinking and it's as I said, it's about drinking so much that you cannot perform your job, drinking and having accidents and the cost of that. It's both human toll as well as economic and that is the biggest cost, I think, definitely more than the kind of the overall health. And there's also the overall health because people drink generally, many drink more, like four or five glasses of wine or the equivalent in other alcohol, and of course it's going to reduce their health.

Ketil Hviding:

It's very difficult to measure but, as I said, some attempts have come up with about 2.5% of GDP different countries are dealing with it different ways, but I would say it seems quite similar in how much it costs in different societies.

Dave Liss:

What should we understand like? 2.5% of GDP means in dollars.

Ketil Hviding:

Yeah, you have to look at the GDP of the United States.

Dave Liss:

Could you say that means in the billions?

"Aussie" Mike James:

I would have to be, wouldn't I? I would think.

Ketil Hviding:

It would be so. U S GDP is 27, about 30 trillion U S dollars. So 2.5% of that is brilliant. It's thousands of millions. It's not insignificant, no, it's not significant. In the door no.

Dave Liss:

And I know that we've all met somebody in our lives who's had a struggle with drinking, and I think the one thing that seems to me to be a problem about if you have someone who has a weight problem or most of your social engagements involve either food, alcohol or both and you're on the one hand, it's part of what you're doing, on the other hand, you need to have restraint because of someone who's kind of difficult. How do you deal with those kind of things?

"Aussie" Mike James:

That's where it, I think, becomes very difficult, I know, in populations and again this might be the sphere of the addiction specialist, like our colleague who wrote the book Atomic Habits. He's saying to get rid of bad habits you've got to look at the environment you're in. And it was always very difficult. If we did have friends who were suffering alcohol problems, it was very hard for them to socialize with us because there was always alcohol involved and, generally speaking, in my experience the successful ones remove themselves from that group and really went into a different sort of social sphere Difficult.

"Aussie" Mike James:

It's very difficult if your peer group or the group you associate with your boarding club alcohol is always involved.

Ketil Hviding:

So yeah, it becomes a difficulty and that is a real cost on society.

"Aussie" Mike James:

I think and it makes it extremely tough for individuals. I've always had a lot of admiration for people who do manage to do that, because that's quite a task. You've got to change your life around, and I've seen a few people do that, but nothing but admiration for them.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

Yeah, and you should admire it, because I think it's like any addictive drug, the most difficult thing is for the person addicted to it to acknowledge that they are addicted to it. Yeah, yeah, and because that's the first step in the process of heal is to acknowledge that it's a problem and alcohol is different, and that it will because it generates what we call empty calories, like you said.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

For a heineken 40 calories, and if you drink three of them, you're almost at 400 calories. And so if a person does that and it fools the interesting thing alcohol fools the body, particularly the liver, to thinking it's getting nutrition. So what it then does is stop the individual from eating. They don't feel hungry because they fulfilled the liver's caloric need, and so that's why they tend to have much more problems with their liver. They tend to have much more problems with their pancreas.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

They tend to have more problems with their gallbladder and thereby, when you do, that because there are several enzymes that we all need to function and to help with nutrition and digestion you don't use because they need to get destroyed, because the liver is overworking, because it realizes, after it thought it got calories that it didn't, so it's craving more. It releases what it has and then you start to have less and less available.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

Well, that's where the chronic liver disease comes from, that's where the acute and chronic pancreatic disease comes from, et cetera. It's why people who have gout, who drink a lot, tend to have greater, more frequent flares of their gout.

Dave Liss:

And so yes.

"Aussie" Mike James:

What leads to cirrhosis of the liver which is common amongst alcoholics. Okay.

"Aussie" Mike James:

I guess one of the questions posed is also how does alcohol consumption affect physical performance, recovery and mental clarity and what are the safe ways to incorporate it into a fitness routine? I guess, if I could look at looking at that, obviously it's dose dependent. I don't think if you're in a sporting activity on a weekend, maybe a few drinks earlier in the week is going to hurt you that much. But I do know at top level when you're talking about elite sportsmen whether Aussie rules or soccer players or even NFL players in the 50s, 60s, 70s they were quite hard drinkers as well. They worked hard and played hard. But the sport has become so refined now and so fine-tuned and more endurance, based in especially australian rules and the soccer and so forth, they really generally turn off alcohol all year long during the season.

"Aussie" Mike James:

It's very rare that you would see them drink alcohol during the season now. So that's, at the elite level, what happens? Of course, being young guys, they're looking for a high somewhere. They might turn to something else that has less effects on skin falls and weight and so forth, and that could be all sorts of other extraneous types of material speed and cocaine and so forth. So there's a double-edged sword to that In alcohol consumption for the average person in a fitness routine.

"Aussie" Mike James:

I think again moderation and allowing yourself time to recover, so that you've dictated it out of your system a little bit. Obviously, leave 12 to 18 hours before you do your next exercise session, just so that you're not going in there with a belly full of alcohol or possibly being a bit troubled by fine motor motor movements, and that's just a general rule of thumb. Now I have no research to really back that up would you agree with that?

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

yeah, and I'd also say if you take the amateurs, so take the weekend golfer or the weekend basketball player. You know that they may. You know, and during of golf, people drink beer, they drink alcohol. While they play, they smoke cigars. Some of them will tell you they play better. Some of them will tell you they play better because they relax, that they're not as tense. But I always say that at the end of the round. When you look at their scores, if you compare it to the time where they didn't drink at all until after the round was over, versus during the round, they don't perform as well. And then you look at the person that now there are some people who I call it our alcohol dependence, that they drink it so often that it is part of their sustenance, and so when they don't drink it, and this is what we see in the emergency room is the alcohol?

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

withdrawal or the delirium tremens, where they're coming confused and disoriented. They're tremulous. Why is that? Basically because you alter the chemical breakdown in the brain, that's all. You just make it. The things that are supposed to be working aren't working as well. And again, when you create false calories, you actually cause increased fat deposits and fat deposits in the brain. If you do it enough, you basically decrease some of the normal functioning neuron because they're being compressed, they're not allowed to function. So there's always this and it's a very fine line.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

There are in practice, you know, when you ask the question do you drink alcohol? And then you ask people how much do you drink a day? How much do you drink? And if you go to any doctor's office for the first time, they have you fill out a questionnaire. They ask you do you smoke? If so, how much do you smoke a day? How much do you smoke in a week? Do you drink alcohol? How much do you smoke in a day? How much do you smoke in a week?

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

And we always say that people who've been longtime smokers if they tell you they smoke one pack a day, you know they drink. They smoke two to three. If they tell you that they have one drinks a day. They probably haven't four to five Then, particularly if they're the person who's asking you to come in and write them a note so that they can take time off from work because they just had a bad week and they need some time to recover, there's this very fine line.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

And again, these are the people who drink who don't think their drinking is abnormal, and if they don't think it's abnormal, then it can't be a problem. If it's not a problem, then they just continue to do, because they'll tell you I've been doing this for 25 years, I'm functioning fine, I still work on Wall Street, I still work in the Senate and they'll tell you that they're fine. And it's, it's the subtleties. It's the subtle things where they're in the middle of talking about something and they lose track of what they're saying, or they start with one sentence and come up with a completely different sentence that had nothing to do with the previous.

Dave Liss:

Do you think that most of us are guilty of it, of lying to ourselves and lying to our doctors?

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

No, no. I think that to me it depends on the relationship you have with your doctor. If you have a good relation, working relationship with with your doctor and you feel that your doctor's always got your best interest in heart Because it's interesting, most times people will come in and will say OK, based on your history and the recent lab tests we've done and exams we need to change.

Dave Liss:

We may need to repeat that last part. There was something on the glitch in the matrix there.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

Oh I said, if you're meeting with your doctor and they say you need to lose weight and one of the ways that you can get people to lose weight is to cut back on their alcohol. So, as they say, when we talk about beer, people have beer bellies, as they say. You can be walking through an airport terminal and you can tell many of the people who have a lung affiliation with beer just by the way their bellies look and the way they move and the way they talk. This is more of just having experience. So I don't think people intentionally, and again I think it depends on the person. So I don't think people intentionally, and again I think it depends on the person. Some people are really, when they're concerned about something, they're more apt to tell you something because they want help. And there are other people who I didn't really come here to talk about that. I came here to talk about this.

Dave Liss:

And that's all I really want to talk about.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

So they'll, they want to. They want it to go away because they don't want to discuss it right then.

"Aussie" Mike James:

And Let me throw another, a more positive vibe here. I don't think we're being negative, we're being exactly right, it's true. But I would say that I've drank beer most of my life and I've got to say it's probably some of the best times in my life. Met some of the best people, been a great social lubricant yes, been wonderful for me in business I've been telling you that lots of times discussing things that are hard to discuss.

"Aussie" Mike James:

You can discuss them over a few beers overall, I would say it's been a very positive effect meeting with my friends and family over a few drinks that's one of the joys of life so again it's moderation's moderation, but there's also, I think, a positive aspect that can't be overlooked.

Dave Liss:

But again, it's like anything, you can overdo anything if it's good. That's just a point I'd like to make.

Ketil Hviding:

I have a question. Is it so the? You talked about relaxing and you said, in quotation marks but does it? Is there a muscle-relaxing element of alcohol, or is it just in your head?

"Aussie" Mike James:

I don't know. I feel relaxed, but I'm not sure.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

I'm not sure, but I know that it is definitely from the mental standpoint. There is a relaxed sensation, no question about it, and by default. For instance, if you are about to do something that requires a lot of strength and tension, you tend to initially tense up in preparation for it and then you do it. Alcohol does relax you, but the problem is the amount of alcohol that I might need to take to get relaxed may be different than Mike.

Dave Liss:

That may be different than Dave, or may be different than you.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

That there is and certain drinks. So for instance, I could drink a glass of wine and then have another glass of wine and I'm done for the evening. But I could drink 44 milliliters of a scotch of a good quality scotch, and I'd be for the evening. But I could drink 44 ml of a scotch of a good quality scotch, and I'd be good all night. So it's very different and I think that says a lot about each of us being a little bit different.

Ketil Hviding:

Another question. So it's the interaction with things like depression.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

You mentioned earlier that there was a depressant yeah, that the more they drink it, the longer. The more they drink it, the more likely that later on they'll have a depressed mood or be sad or more quiet. It's why they tend to fall off to sleep. It's why you don't want people to drink and drive, because in the midst of their driving they're not as alert, they're not as focused on what's ahead of them. They're actually too relaxed, too calm.

"Aussie" Mike James:

Yeah, I think that's a good point and you bring that up because, again, I'm talking from personal experience. If there was a problem I faced or if there was a stress, alcohol wasn't the answer. I never used it as a.

Ketil Hviding:

I never thought to use it as a way to get relief or something like that You've got to tackle the problem.

"Aussie" Mike James:

I always saw it as a social lubricant for celebration not for commiseration or depression. And I think there's a very real element when you see people drink too much in a depressive state, it's not good and I'm not a psychologist, but that's a very good point, yeah, yeah. Well, we're nearing to wrap up, but, kevin, maybe you could comment.

Dave Liss:

Is there any lessons we can learn from? Countries with stricter or more stricter regulations on alcohol or even more lenient.

"Aussie" Mike James:

Is there anything economically that makes them stand out or be different when they have those regulations?

Ketil Hviding:

I think it's a very difficult question because it's so linked into their culture, all the Nordic countries having a very strict regime. But I think unless you want to go the whole way out, you're going to have to struggle and have some leniency when it comes to alcohol, I think overall even though, living in France, I must say that cultural attitude towards alcohol helps in. It promotes moderation and actually alcohol consumption is falling in France, okay, whereas in the Nordic countries it's not, and it's a healthier approach, although it has costs here too.

Dave Liss:

A large amount of drinking all day, it's not good but that's not really the case anymore, so I think that's a good thing.

Ketil Hviding:

So I think there's a lot to learn from that, but it's a part of a whole. After all, it's considered as food and it's the approach to food in general. I think that's another way of looking at it as well. It's like saying that you know everything you take in the body is going to have an effect on you, and it's a part of a harmonious relationship to your food.

Dave Liss:

And that's also one of the things that's very different here.

Ketil Hviding:

You eat at certain times, you drink at certain times, you do things during a certain rhythm. Yeah, okay.

Dave Liss:

Dr Kinney, I think we're winding down but if you were going to talk to a teenage boy or teenage girl right now and you were going to advise them about how they should think about alcohol and how they're going to consider them, about how they should think about alcohol and how they're going to consider it in their life, what would you tell them or what should we understand?

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

I'd ask, I'd actually say I would tell them what we know about drinking in moderation, that they should and at the age that they're at now that alcohol there's no advantage to them using alcohol at this time in their life, as they get older.

Dave Liss:

that may be for celebration things of that nature.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

But I would also encourage them. You grew up in a household where you may either there was no alcohol or there was some alcohol, and I think it's important to take into account what your family believes is normal, assuming all things were pretty normal to begin with. You want them to follow the guidance, because the people who clearly said there will be no drinking, no alcohol, no, anything like this, some of those children cannot wait to do it.

Dave Liss:

It's no different than them saying nobody's going to smoke in this house.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

And every opportunity they get, they try to find a way to do it. Because, if you particularly because we live where alcohol is advertised, just like they advertise detergent, just like they advertise deodorant and hair wash clothing so it's part of the culture, it's part of life, so you want people to understand it. And also, people won't know how alcohol affects them until they cry, how alcohol affects them until they cry, and so moderation is always the key. But you always tell people and I agree with Mike is that it is like a social interaction that creates good vibes, good things, lots of, as they say.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

Probably many business deals all over the planet have taken place with a glass in each person's hand, whether they drink anything of it or not, but just the fact because it is a way to relate to one another. You may get to the point where you talk about gee, I like this particular drink, try this, things like that. So there are many different ways in doing it. Rather than forbidding that, it's there, and I think you have to deal with, really have to respect your own culture, what works for you, because you may grow up in a culture where you're quite comfortable. Like fors don't drink. The entire arab world. They don't drink and and they function perfectly fine. They do every, but they have the same diseases that everybody else has and they said they just have less percentages of, but they still have them it and they probably have motor vehicle accidents, just like we have motor vehicle accidents. They just don't have alcohol as their drug.

Ketil Hviding:

In this country they drink a lot of soft drinks. Now that's been marked a little bit and that functions a little bit the same way, but that has a lot of sugar as well. Okay, Okay, guys, we've covered a lot of ground today.

"Aussie" Mike James:

And as we wrap up this discussion, let's share one actionable takeaway for listeners about making informed decisions regarding alcohol. Dr Cain, let's start off with you.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

If you're not drinking. You shouldn't start drinking just to be one of the crowd. You should think about it, and everything in moderation. The goal here is, for women, one, for men, two, and I would tell you, if you're starting out, one probably is more than enough for you to sense and see, because there's going to be a feeling or a reaction to it. Now, some people may have none, you're going to have a few people, but that doesn't mean I'm supposed to drink until I feel, something because normally it's going to go down the wrong ladder, as they say.

Dr. Richard Kennedy:

And again, be responsible, Be responsive.

Ketil Hviding:

Kettle. Yeah, I would very much agree with Dr Kennedy. When it comes to alcohol, we focus on mostly to drink it with food. Yes, of course there might be some exceptions, but make sure that you have a good feeling about how the body reacts to it and as well also that goes on a little bit the speed of consumption as well. Why don't you stop take stock a little bit about what's happening in your body? You start take stock a little bit about what's happening in your body.

Ketil Hviding:

The first glass of wine often is the one that tips you over, and then you start having a few others.

Dave Liss:

I've had the opportunity once to talk to Tony Robbins. And the conversation was about food, but I think that his response goes to food and alcohol as well. He said food is the friend that can't say no. And I think that alcohol is much the same way. If it's there and you want it, it's not going to say no to you. You have to say no to it. You choose your friends wisely. It's how you should live your life, yeah, and.

"Aussie" Mike James:

I'll just finish off with regarding fitness programs and wellness generally. Align your drinking habits with your fitness goals and generally.

Dave Liss:

I would say it's for celebration not commiseration.

"Aussie" Mike James:

It's to meet and be a social and enjoy the benefits.

Dave Liss:

And on an educational level. I'm a real fan of that addiction and recovery.

"Aussie" Mike James:

the gel neck curve it's just a good reference point for family, friends yourself if you think you might be overindulging in alcohol. But on a more positive note, if you want to see.

Dave Liss:

I have to mention this fellow Dr K might remember him. There was a famous athlete back in or boxer back in the 40s and 50s named Two-Tone Tony.

Ketil Hviding:

Galento yes.

"Aussie" Mike James:

Who owned Two-Tone. Tony Galento, who owned a bar in New Jersey and used to box and actually knocked Joe Lewis down, nearly won the heavyweight championship.

Dave Liss:

That was a person who is an example of both playing hard and working hard.

"Aussie" Mike James:

That's a guy for a good juxtaposition on everything we've been talking about, I guess on a positive note and that's a wrap, folks, today we explored alcohol from multiple angles its effect on health, its societal crisis, economic implications, its role in personal wellness and in social interaction.

Dave Liss:

If you've enjoyed today's discussion, subscribe to. Wellness Musketeers and share this episode with others who might benefit from these insights.

"Aussie" Mike James:

Stay informed, stay well and always consider the bigger picture when it comes to your health journey.

People on this episode

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"Aussie" Mike James

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Dave Liss

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Dr. Richard Kennedy

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Ketil Hviding

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