From Scarcity to Strategy: Financial Wellness for Families | Li Zhang, Episode 060

#060.  In this episode, Justin sits down with Li Zhang, Director of Social Impact and Financial Literacy at CPA Canada. Li shares her personal journey from an immigrant childhood shaped by a scarcity mindset to her current role as a financial literacy advocate. They discuss the influence of early money habits, the challenges of balancing saving with spending, and how parents can foster strong financial skills in their children. Discover CPA Canada’s accessible, free financial literacy resources and programs that teach financial concepts to communities, schools, and families across Canada. This episode is filled with actionable insights for anyone wanting to build a healthier relationship with money and raise financially aware kids.

Show notes and more at:

https://moneydadpodcast.com/session060

Transcript

Li Zhang

Justin: Joining us today is Li Zhang. Li is the director, social impact and financial literacy leader at Chartered Professional Accountants of Canada, who manages CPA Canada's financial literacy program. Li has overseen the development of community education, publications, , consumer resources.

Justin: She has trained thousands of CPA volunteers across Canada to deliver these programs in their local communities. Li and her husband are based in Toronto with their daughter. Li, welcome to the Monday Night Podcast. 

Li: Thanks for having me, Justin. 

Justin: Well, I'm glad to have you on and chat with you today. As we get started here, I'd love to travel back in time for a bit and really start from the beginning.

Justin: I'd love to kind of understand your childhood and how or what influenced your thinking or behaviors around money. What impactful lessons about money did you learn along the way, whether it's from your parents or others that really stick with you today? 

Li: That's a really interesting question, because as you know, when we talk about money, a lot of our values and the way we interact with money is actually set while we're fairly young.

Li: So I immigrated to Canada just before I turned five. , and it's a very typical immigrant story. , my parents struggled quite a bit in the beginning to make ends meet. So I definitely grew up with a scarcity mindset. , I would say so that's really influenced a lot of my decisions as an adult on how I spend, how I save.

Li: Because I had gone through those periods in my formative years of not having certain things compared to my peers and seeing kind of the struggles that my parents had gone through and trying not to recreate that history, of course, in my life and with my children. And so, you know, a lot of times, and I'll share this interesting story.

Li: , After work, I'd gone to a friend's house, , and a friend had dropped me off, and At this point, I was trying to make my way home and I was calling my husband. And I said, okay, well, I'm just going to take the TTC because it's so ingrained in me to save money. And so he, he asked me, he's like, well, why don't we just take an Uber?

Li: And it's not that I couldn't afford the difference routine, let's say a 3 ride and, , probably a 30 ride, but it's just that the thought actually never occurred to me that I could actually take an Uber. And so for me, You know, from my childhood experiences to who I am today as an adult, I sometimes have to remind myself that it was actually okay to spend rather than to save every dollar that came in, because it does come a point where there's a, there's a reverse balance where, you know, you, you save and save and save, , but then you kind of reach perhaps later on in life.

Li: And this is the time where you're thinking, okay, well, I want to do all the things that. , and I, I, I'd wish to have done in my life, but then you have other challenges, right? Whether that's health, whether that's, you know, things that are happening in the world, et cetera. And so it's interesting when I ask myself these questions, , with my relationship to money, you know, what's my risk tolerance, , based on the experiences I had as a child.

Li: Now, my parents weren't big investors. They were very good at managing the daily budget and expenses. So that's something I've learned, but things like investing, , retirement, those are things that I had to teach myself because that was not something, , that, , that my parents, , were able to do at the time.

Li: And so it's really understanding kind of the blind spots that I had, but also the lack of education, , from, you know, my early childhood. And so doing that research to understanding what I was needing in this point of my life. 

Justin: It's always an interesting dynamic. I think, , you brought up, you have, it's the mentality of saving and, , I'm kind of in the same boat before where my parents, , immigrants into the country, very little, right.

Justin: Like, and, and scraping and scrambling and kind of get by , and put food on the table. And now things are obviously very different where, , Less to be in a country where, , tremendous amount of resources and, , , they set me up to, to be on this, my own, this path where I don't have to worry about that kind of thing.

Justin: I actually think , it'd be interesting. So if, or those who are geared towards saving and making sure that they, , doing that, it's not like a switch that you can just flip one day and say. Okay. Now I'm just going to spend it all .

Justin: , and let's say health doesn't get into the way or things like that, you can't just, , going back to your mindset of, well, yeah, I'm just going to take the TTC. Cause that's from your upbringing. So it's, not like, , an automatic switch that you can just change.

Justin: And so you need to, , make sure that, , you are, educating yourself and learning what your blind spots are to, , overcome that, , from the start 

Li: for me, I advocate for balance. I'm never someone in, , financial education or, , helping individuals obtain financial wellness, , be very strict on saying, okay, well, , you must say, , every, every free dollar you have.

Li: Now you do want a habit of saving. But you also have to live. Yeah. And so understanding that difference and where that line is, is really important for every individual. And it's different. There is no judge and there should never be judgment in individuals, management of money because everybody's story is different.

Li: , but what we try to do, especially in our programming is to know the difference. Of what the consequences and the positives are of making those decisions like one of the things that I always see , and I think it's lucky because I've seen it at a younger age, so I try not to, , repeat the mistakes of others.

Li: , is that, like you said, it's not a switch. So oftentimes when people are super savers, great, fantastic. When they retire, they find it very hard to turn that mindset from I'm going to save to I can spend and then so a lot of them, , leave huge amounts of estates at the end of their lives. And I think there's a lot of regret that gets tied into that to say, Hey, maybe I could have treated myself that trip.

Li: That item, , early on when I had more, , opportunity, more time to enjoy it. So I think when you have that discussion about, okay, well, what do you value? And having that discussion early in life and understanding that is going to really help guide your money decisions overall and live a more fulfilling life, because I think money is important to survive, but it's, but at the end of the day, it's a tool.

Li: Yeah, right. It's a tool to achieve your dreams, , to live, , the life that, you would like and, and to be fair, I'm, , right now talking from a place of privilege because there's definitely a lot of Canadians who are struggling , for ends to meet. And so they're on a very different path and have to have, , make very different decisions.

Li: But I do think that, you know, financial wellness is a very long journey, and whatever different points you're on you have to make different decisions, but understanding that life is short. And so making sure you are prepared for your retirement and those periods of time where you aren't earning an income, but also understanding that you shouldn't live to a point where you go without everything.

Justin: , I mean that that's the key to life really I mean you want to be able to enjoy be happy and you know that's going to require money to do so and it's not about just. Living in entirely, , frugal life and,, making yourself miss those types of experiences or that chance to have those experiences to make, to have a memorable life.

Justin: , you spoke about journey. I'm curious about your journey, , you've been involved with promoting financial literacy at CPA Canada for some time. First inspired you in wanting to take an active role in promoting financial literacy. And secondly, why is this topic meaningful and important to you? 

Li: I think my journey is, is a bit interesting , in the way that I didn't necessarily set out to say, Hey, , the purpose of my life is to help Canadians better their financial circumstances.

Li: , I, I did a business degree, , and graduated and then decided, well, I like a lot of things, , but I'm not entirely sure what my calling is. And so, at that time, I was very involved in partisan politics. Very different world, very different rules. And, you know, if you follow news today, you know, it's, it's always been kind of a different level of crazy.

Li: , but I think for me, I was really looking for some sort of purpose, , that really added to life rather than take away from it and not just my own, but those around me, I think if everybody came with a mindset to do good things. That it lifts the communities that we're part of, that it isn't always about me.

Li: , or what my needs are, but what are some of the skills and talents that I bring to the table, uh, that, that can help others. , and I've always had that mindset, it just didn't come through at the time, , so concretely as it does today, having been in, , financial literacy, social impact work for, you know, almost, you know, 16, 17 years.

Li: Thank you., So I was lucky that when I was, , interviewing for tons of roles, I mean, it spanned from, you know, again, working for the, , the CPA profession nationally to selling wine in France. Now, there are, there are days I look back and I'm like, Hmm, I wonder what my life would be like has, had I chosen that role.

Justin: That would be very different career path. 

Li: A hundred percent. , but I, I ended up, , at CPA Canada in a role, , that allowed me to do so many different. , aspects, , to support, , members, , , from a national perspective. And, , I was lucky that we had just started talking about supporting financial education of Canadians.

Li: And this was a, a really nascent idea at the time. And I thought, Yes, why don't we do this? I think there's a real lack at the time, , we weren't teaching it in schools. So many, you know, adults were uncomfortable with it. So how are they going to teach their kids if they themselves avoided, , their, , financial situations.

Li: So I said, Great, we have this huge membership. Do you think they volunteer for it? And so we asked them, and they said, Yes, absolutely. We support this like 90 percent of our members said, Yes, we support it. 70 percent said, Yes, we're happy to participate. And I said, Okay, well, now, now there's something here.

Li: And so we started building a program where we got our members and of course CPAs, as you know, they're very comfortable with finances, very comfortable talking about it, to, to Guide individuals through, , really important moments. And when I say important moments is, , when you, when you first graduate from university and you're starting kind of that adulting journey, , you're looking at certain decisions, right?

Li: Like in this case, perhaps, , purchasing a car, if you, you need to go, , , for work or et cetera. Or of course, one of the largest purchase of our lives, , would be a home. , and of course we've heard a lot of. A lot of that, , on the news, in the news lately with, , everything that's happening. , and then , you get older, , raising a family, , preparing for retirement.

Li: There's also, you know, how to avoid fraud. Like there's just so many aspects to it. So we started building the content. And then what we did is we went through, we went around the country and we started training our volunteers on how to deliver the content. In a dynamic and engaging way because the last thing we wanted to do was also to create a program where you'd attend He'd be like, oh my god, this is the most boring hour of my life.

Li: It's hard enough already So we needed to remove a lot of the obstacles we had to especially for kids We had to make it fun. We had to make it very visual and colorful So that the next time you know, they encountered money. It wasn't a oh I don't want to deal with that. 

Justin (2): Yeah. . 

Li: It'd be like, Oh yeah, I remember I took this workshop and we talked about needs and wants.

Li: We talked about owning a pet and everything that went into it and the importance of understanding the value of money, where it comes from, , how to spend it, how to save it, the decisions you're making. And if it's an engaging manner, you're going to have a positive association with it. And that I think carries forward like a child when they first start to school is first start school and they get really excited about going that's something that carries with them that they're going to be excited about learning about going to school about being social as opposed to if a young child has a negative experience and they're always going to associate school with a bad emotion.

Li: And I think emotions as people really drive our actions and our associations. 

Justin: , there's that saying where, , you don't remember what people said, did, but you remember how it made you feel. And that's, that's true. That's the part of it where, , people will remember long after things have happened, how that made them feel, how that, , interaction with those people, how that topic made them feel.

Justin: And so that, yeah, it's super important, especially at a young age to be able to associate positive associations with learning, understanding, talking about money, because that will only serve to better, like to reinforce that. Moving forward that, that there's positive associations with it. And I think a lot of times where, , and I'll take my own example where sometimes, , in the household that I grew up in there, , , there was struggles and , there was tension around money.

Justin: And because. There was, you know, again, this coming from a place of lack. , there's not enough of it. So it's, it was this constant battle. And so you can develop negative, associations with that. If , certainly if you're not aware of it. And so that can definitely change or influence your behavior, your attitudes about that going forward.

Justin: So certainly super important to make sure that, , programs that are being developed, have that positive association for sure. , I know I'm biased because I have a CPA background, but because, , of the financial training and rigor that comes with, , becoming a CPA, , CPAs are in a fantastic place to be able to help educate, , people.

Justin: young, old on financial literacy, given their skills and experiences. . Can you talk about some of the key financial literacy programs that CPA Canada offers and how, , how does it make an impact in these different communities?

Li: So the biggest component of our program is really our community engagement piece. So we have, I would say, , 50 sessions that we offer across the board from, , elementary students to secondary students to post secondary students to young adults. To older adults to retired and as well as some materials for small and medium business owners.

Li: So we really cover the gamut in terms of. Our offerings and our education. Now I think would be really key for your listeners is that our school program is delivered in the schools. So if you have a child at a Canadian school, you can request a session there. They're 100 percent free. There is no cost to communities to request it is part of the national profession.

Li: , part in, , acting the public's interest, giving back to the communities that we serve. So there's no cost in hosting any of these sessions. , , obviously the development of the programming is all funded by CPA Canada. , and then , we again offer those across the country from coast to coast to coast.

Li: So we are running events in the far north, in small communities, because we're very lucky that, you know, we have CPA members, , everywhere. And so we can, you know, obviously utilize their talents. Uh, and so, yeah, so if you, if you go on the website, you can request a session for your child's class. , and what's great is, you know, our CPA volunteers.

Li: You know, they've been trained, they go in, they run the workshop. , and oftentimes, , we'll, we'll do an entire school over the course of a period, because they'll invite us to come back, , and do several sessions because we, you know, cover. Depending on the age. So when you look at grade four and fives, we're talking about needs and wants, we're talking about pet ownership.

Li: We're talking about bank accounts at a level that's appropriate for them. It will not get into kind of the really specifics, , because obviously at that age, , their understanding is at a different level than if we were teaching someone who was in post secondary, and their decisions are obviously different, like at a post secondary level, we're really trying to hammer the idea of debt and credit.

Li: And not making those initial mistakes. , and obviously managing credit usage a little better, because that's one of the first things I think, , you get when you, when you go to post secondary school, it's like, Oh, sign up for your first credit card. 

Justin: . Everyone, all the companies are throwing all these things at you, free t shirts, free pads, free whatever, sign up for a credit card.

Justin: Okay. 

Li: But, but you know, to this day, there's still many individuals who don't understand what a minimum payment is versus paying on time. , and the. 

Justin: Which is scary. 

Li: Yeah, very large interest rates, right? That your 50 whatever is going to cost you three times that amount. Not that you couldn't afford it, but because you didn't have the knowledge that I actually had to pay that full amount rather than, Oh, I'll just pay the minimum, which is probably 10.

Li: Okay. , and so those are, things that, you know, dollars that we want to impart, but we also want to do it in a level that is. , relevant that is, , better understood. And so even our adult programming, we want to keep the language really simple. We don't want to add a lot of jargon. I find a lot of the financial industry, they like to make it overly complex.

Li: So that you kind of just give up and you're like, eh, it's good enough. 

Justin (2): Yeah. 

Li: Um, so we want to take, we want to remove all those obstacles to understanding to make it, , really approachable. , and that's the same for our, , our children's program as it is for our, for our adult program. , beyond that, we have great resources, , on our website, which I will leave at the end, , that, , Parents, , even individuals, if you're wanting to learn more, , for yourselves, which I think I always encourage because even being in the industry for as long as I have, I am learning new things every day.

Li: Right. And I live and breathe this, but things change very quickly. And, you know, we talk a lot about, , AI and everything that's happening. Well, , when you look at robo investing, a lot of that, a lot of AI is actually already being used, so what will change the next five years, who knows, I mean, it could be exciting in terms that it makes it easier for individuals.

Li: to make better financial decisions, , but I'm not necessarily sure that's always the case. So how do we continuously educate ourselves about the changes that are happening on how our man, our money is being managed? And there's that old adage, right? Like no one will care about your money more than you do.

Justin (2): And 

Li: so you need to think about that, right? Yes. You know, you can have all the professionals that are going to support you and they're going to do a great job, but the end of the day, are you okay with it? And the only way to know that is if you are engaged to a certain level. 

Justin: And that's, that's the heart of it there.

Justin: People need to, going back to what you said yet, you're the only one that's going to care. About your money more than anyone else in the world. And it, as much as sometimes you want to get yes. Advice from whether they're financial advisors, whether they are investment advisors, whoever, other people, other professionals who maybe have a great understanding of it, just because they're there does mean that you should, , delegate all of that.

Justin: , responsibility and decision making to those people, because at the end of the day, it's your, it's your money. And so it's upon, I think each and every one of us to have an understanding and develop that understanding, , so that we are comfortable, , people are comfortable talking, , in that language or talking about their finances so that it's not just something that you just push aside and, Oh, I don't want to deal with it.

Justin: Like it has to be something that you own yourself. , Which I think is very important. I, I've had the opportunity to, , speak at my kid's school, , you know, as a guest speaker, I would during their financial literacy week. And I can't tell you the number of times where it's funny. Like some of the teachers will come up to me afterward and say, as much as this is for kids, , I need to know, I need to find out about this.

Justin: I need to learn about this because like, I don't have, , the necessary knowledge to, to do this. And so, , it's very relevant for obviously not only kids, but. Everyone out there, , who wants to understand and better manage their money. 

Li: And I think I always say the first step is to ask questions. Yeah.

Li: Even if you think they're stupid, if you need to know, ask the question, or if you really want to, you can also Google it. I do both. And I'll give this great example. Or now 

Justin: you GPT. 

Li: It's true. But I mean, both, , will net the same result. And I know nothing about cars. And, um, I do have a vehicle, and I had to take it in for servicing, there's something wrong with it, and they tell me I have to change a part.

Li: I have no idea what this is. So first thing I did was I looked it up to make sure that, , this was not going to be catastrophic. And I was going to get into an accident the moment I left the dealership. And then I proceeded for the next 20 minutes to ask about everything about this piece. , what does that mean?

Li: You know, what does that mean with the longevity of the car? Will this solve this initial problem that I'm having? , what else does this affect? Just take the time, and just ask the questions, and, and sometimes, you know, to make myself feel better, I might preface to say, this could be a very obvious question, but I don't know the answer.

Li: So I'm going to ask you because you're the mechanic, and I hope you know. , and, and it gives me a better sense of understanding when I make that decision. Okay, so do I replace it and it's not an inexpensive piece? , or do I need to start thinking about, well, I've had this car for, , 14 years.

Li: Is it is it time that I need to get another vehicle? And so we're not going to vehicle. , and so figuring out how I'm making this those decisions, but I won't know unless I have all the information to make a qualified decision. And so that's that. And so I use that example to highlight the same thing about your finances.

Li: There's there's tons of stuff that everybody will have questions about. You're not alone. And I don't want anyone to feel a sense of embarrassment or shame because they think, well, I didn't learn this as a kid. Now I'm, you know, much older. And if I ask this, it's just, it's going to show that I'm ignorant or I don't know.

Li: It's better to ask and maybe, you know, feel foolish for the five seconds than to live in ignorance because that information could very much change the trajectory of your money management and your overall financial wellness. 

Justin: Absolutely., I absolutely 100 percent asking those questions, , and, and taking that mindset of, yeah, you know what?

Justin: I don't know. And it's okay that I don't know. Like it, it's perfectly fine. Hey, you know, there's no, there's no shame in that. , as we launch in financial literacy month to help Canadians manage their finances, .

Justin: What are some practical advice that you can give to our listeners? , let's say their parents out there on how they can improve their financial literacy and take better control of their finances. We talked about, , asking questions, not being afraid to ask questions, , what advice would you give to, to parents out there or people out there, , on how they can take control.

Li: So there's two parts to this. The first is. Everybody needs to take the time to improve their own financial knowledge, wherever they are, whether that's, you know, understanding how to track money that you get in and the money that you spend, right? That's, I'm going to say the bottom level to say, okay, well, you know, how much will I receive this month?

Li: , and now if you have a steady paycheck, that's a lot easier. If you work in any sort of gig situation, you work for yourself, that might be a little harder. But then that just means you need to put in a little bit more work and do it for a longer period of time. And then, you know, work with averages to help you make, , better decisions.

Li: And then figure out what your hard costs are versus your discretionary, right? So what you must spend versus what is nice to spend. Uh, and, and so that's kind of , your basic, your foundation of really understanding, you know, managing your money, because if you don't know where it's coming from and where it's going, you can't make any decisions about it.

Li: , and from there you can get as sophisticated as understanding different types of accounts. And you're going to hear, I'm sure if you listen to this podcast, you're going to hear, , R-S-P-T-F-S-A-R-E-S-P, all those things. So really educate yourself on what that means, um, and if they're relevant products for you and the decisions that go in.

Li: One of the common questions I always get is TFSA versus R-S-P-R-R-R-S-P, well. That also depends on your circumstance, right? Where you are in your life journey and your financial journey. And so really educating yourself where you are at that time for your, for your needs, and that really translates to how you teach your kids about money.

Li: Cause I would like to think that every parent wants their kids to surpass them in everything, health, uh, finances, happiness, like that's what we want for our children. We can't do that. And we can't role model that if we ourselves don't do it. It's like, I want my child to eat healthy, but all I'm going to do is eat chips.

Li: Well, so your child's going to think, okay, well eating chips for breakfast is acceptable because you know, my parents do it. So you need to start with yourself. And if you're really struggling with this. Take that moment to when you're teaching your kids to learn yourself, and I hear that from parents a lot where, , they're teaching their kids the basics, but they themselves are learning about, , the changes of digital currency, right?

Li: How do we teach kids about money without, like, having physical dollar bills or change, , to kind of show that exchange that happens. For goods and services. So, so that's one at the other piece. I would say it's never too early to start. And, , and I say that, especially if you had young children, there is always a lesson that is related to good financial management that is appropriate.

Li: So I will give an example. And, you know, of course, my colleagues in the industry laugh at me because sometimes I can be a bit extreme. , but, , before, unfortunately, the Science Center closed, , we were great patrons, , and my daughter and I, , had started going when she turned two. And, you know, like, at the end of everything, there's always some sort of store.

Li: And so, we were going through the store. Everywhere. Everywhere, 

Justin: of course. Everywhere. 

Li: Yeah. Um, and She wanted a pencil. Now, to put it in perspective, this is a 50 cent pencil. And I said, okay, why do you want this pencil? And she'll say, oh, it's my current favorite color. It's green. It has maybe dinosaurs on it.

Li: I don't remember the details. And I said, okay, uh, well, do you have pencils at home? And she's like, yes. I said, do you have many pencils at home? She says, yes. So how much joy are you going to derive from this pencil? Now this is, again, a 50 cent pencil. I could have simply just bought it, left. But I literally stood in this little kiosk.

Li: For about half an hour, most of the staff by now is watching us because I'm standing here debating, , the needs and wants conversation of a 50 cent pencil, but in the end, she's like, okay, mama, I don't need it, but it's taking the time to start explaining, , do you like the difference between needing something and wanting something, but also then, is this a good value?

Li: At that moment. Now, later we would go back and she wanted something that was 50, which I purchased, because it's not about the value. It's about the action. 

Justin: Right. Oh, I thought you're gonna say, Oh, I should I should have really just got over that 50 cent 

Li: pencil. I mean, it would have saved me like, you know, 49.

Li: But I wanted to make sure she understood the difference. Between, , just picking something up and, you know, we're all guilty of that, right? Kind of those ad hoc, , splurges of in the moment that, you know, we can't take home and we're just like, good grief. Why did I buy that? Yeah, why did I buy that junk?

Justin (2): Yeah. 

Li: But remember, marketing's purpose is to sell you things that you do not need. And so trying to teach her the difference, even though it was a 50 cent pencil and later I would spend 50, , the difference between, you know, is this going to be useful? How much enjoyment will you get out of it? And is it a good spend of your money?

Li: Now, the value conversation will come a little later. And now she's almost four, , soon. And so the other day, , we were at a, a toy store. She wanted to buy something and now I'm starting to explain to her the cost of thing. So she was trying to determine, oh, do I want this or this? And I said, well, this one is 4.

Li: 99 plus tax. And really, I just say plus tax as a, as a concept. I'm not necessarily going to break in, well, what goes into sales tax? What the percentage is and what does it pay for, but I want to start introducing these concepts to her so that when she gets a little older, I can then break down. Well, that's just the listed price, but you have to put in these additional pieces.

Li: And it could be a number of things. It could be, you know, sometimes they have service fees. Sometimes they have taxes. And I mean, it's just different level of tax, but start to socialize at a younger age. Now, if your child is a little older and you haven't. started these conversations, don't panic, but you should definitely start today if you haven't started, but just figure out what's appropriate for their age.

Li: And there's, , there's materials out there, for every age. And I think the earlier you start talking about it, the less taboo it becomes. I mean, there's, there's that, , funny research that shows that we're more likely to talk to kids about sex. Which is, I think, a way more uncomfortable conversation, , than it is about money.

Justin (2): Yeah. 

Li: And both of them have different consequences. 

Justin (2): Yeah. 

Li: And so I think if we're, , going to talk to our kids about sex at a, you know, and, and I like to think it's becoming a younger and younger age, , that we should focus and put just as much attention on managing money and understanding how, Money works in the world Alongside that that's kind of my piece to that and then the other thing I think is really important to focus on Is how we teach girls versus boys?

Li: There's a lot of research That shows when we talk about numbers We treat young girls and young boys differently. So for example there's, , six marbles on the table and a little boy will ask you, how many marbles are on the table? And a parent will generally say six. If a little girl asks, parents will generally say many 

Justin (2): interesting.

Li: So you are already starting the separation of I'm going to take the time to count with you versus, Oh, there's a lot. It doesn't matter. 

Justin: Interesting. 

Li: And so there's a lot of research that shows how important it is. for us to also treat girls in the same way, especially when it comes to math, which is obviously a foundation for many things, money, just being one aspect, right?

Li: Like, that's why we're, we're trying to encourage more, , women, , to get into, you know, engineering, into sciences. These are all bases of that. And so I, I'll use an example from, my own life. Sometimes it is easier when my daughter asks, well, how many is this or how many is that? And there are many times where I've had to kind of check that assumption at the door.

Li: , and sometimes to my detriment, , because we'll take a walk and there's always, , on Saturday mornings, just a horde of runners. And she'll be like, mommy, how many runners? And I'm like, Oh boy. So we would literally make 

Justin: me count all of these. Okay. 

Li: Yeah. Yeah. And we would get to, I don't know, 68, but it's the idea, literally, but it's the idea of, you know, reinforcing that money is for like numbers, money.

Li: , you know, those concepts, math is for everybody. And I think it's, it's really reinforcing it when they're young age as they grow up, because then the conversations get easier because they already have an introduction to it. So it doesn't become a scary thing. Or like you, you grow up with that. , I'm not good at math.

Li: Well, I don't think that's true. It's like, , I'm not going to be a prima ballerina because I didn't start when I was really young. , But that doesn't mean I can't get really good at it. I can't learn it. But had I started younger, I'd probably be more successful. 

Justin: Yeah. Because you have that practice, those reps from a young age.

Justin: And I think that that's part of the opportunity there is, , , taking back your example of, , at that 50 cent pencil at, at the science center where you took the time and you were, you know, explaining, okay, , do you have pencils at home? Do you need this?

Justin: Is it a need or want and making sure that you're carving out that time to do that and talk about in that moment. And that's important. I think that those are really where the pieces come together for kids, where they can have those moments to talk about it with. , us as parents and say, and we can walk them through whatever example all, you know, I love to go through, you know, let's say when we eat out at the restaurant, , I guess I'll do it sometimes with my five year old, but definitely with my 10 year old.

Justin: Okay. Let's look at the bill. This is how much it was. Let's add it up together. Here's the total take that. Oh, what's on top of that? Oh, that's tax. Yes. Then we add tip that's on top of that. . So, and making sure that he understands. And, and can walk through that as an example, or even when we're going to the grocery store, what I've started to do recently was once a week, I will have, , and we just started this literally two, two weeks ago, but the kids will prepare a meal where, you know, they're going to come up with, okay, here's what we didn't want to do this week.

Justin: So week one was sushi. Because, , we love sushi. So we're going to make sushi at home. Okay, fantastic. You two are going to make the meal where obviously, you know, mom and dad are going to help you guys. But let's go to the grocery store. We're going to buy the ingredients. Let's figure out what's, you know, what's involved.

Justin: We're going to get whatever, whatever, all the ingredients, crab meat, cucumber, avocado, everything like that. , , and then we're going to put it together. And then so you're going to. Understand, like one, I want to have them understand part of it was the cost, which admittedly we didn't go through in detail.

Justin: , we didn't take as much time with that, which I will. Better 

Li: rectify, rectify going forward. But the second 

Justin: piece of it was I wanted them to understand not only the cost of the meal that we're putting together, but the actual effort and time it took, like these things take time. So, oh, you know what, when we go to, if we go to a restaurant, which sure, we'll go to a restaurant and eat out, but it's not like when you sit there and order like, oh, where, how come my meal is taking so long?

Justin: Well, it. It takes time to prepare these things and I want to show them even when let's say when we're eating meals at home, it takes time and effort to put these things together. And so I want to have them, , start to gain an appreciation for that by doing this, , once a week meal plan. , and it's been interesting to see how like how they've.

Justin: Been able to say, oh, yeah, take time and oh, yeah, okay. The ingredients that we get, we have to buy them. And this is what it costs at the store. So, , it's taking those, that time and those, that opportunity to really help have that conversation with your child. So that yes, later on it becomes easier and easier and easier.

Justin: These discussions about money are not taboo. , me growing up, we had discussions about money, you know, in one sense where, it, was all the time. , There's no, there's nothing wrong with talking about money. We just did it. , it's part of what we talked about. , so it's important to do that, , for sure.

Li: I think, I think, , there's, there's another benefit to doing it that way. You are, in fact, teaching them value. Right. I think, you know, growing up in scarcity, I think value then becomes inherent to us because we were never able to go out for a meal. We never went to the movies. And so part of our challenge as we better our economic circumstance is how do we teach?

Li: Those fundamental values to our children who, , take their first European trip before their 10 or, you know, we go out to eat maybe once a week that, that was never a reality for me growing up. So I understand the value of being able to go and get sushi versus having to make it at home. And so I'm always challenged.

Li: And, you know, I mean, call me in 10 years and ask me how that went. Um, whether or not I'm going to be able to impart strong values on my daughter just because my economic situation is so different than when I was growing up, and I think this is probably my biggest fear as a parent, that, you know, when you don't value things the same or as you should, it takes away from the, the happiness that, that some of these items or experiences, , should provide.

Li: And then, so where do you go from there? Right. I mean, do you have to search for, , more extravagant experiences when you forget some of the little things that we take for granted, , because, , our growing up our situations are so different. So that's one question that I continuously ask myself as a parent.

Li: , on, on how I'm going to bridge, , that experience. Cause I think if you don't grow up in poverty or lacking, you don't really have a good understanding of what that means. , and I do think that as an experience, it helps to ground me sometimes to say, wow, like I'm really fortunate to have this moment.

Li: I'm really lucky. that I can do this, I can provide this, I can participate in this because that was not always my reality. And so that's, I would say my, my biggest challenge. So when you're doing these, , activities with your children, you are trying to impart value in a different way. So I think, I think that's, that's great.

Justin: , that is probably one of my biggest concerns or fear as well as being able to ensure that that I teach my kids those values. that I learned, , the importance of work ethic, strong work ethic, the, , not taking things for granted. , I'll remind them, let's say if we go on a trip, , we have this opportunity now to travel as a family, which I love because I love to spend time with them.

Justin: But it, , those are things that it's not automatic. , not everyone has the opportunity to do so and take big trips overseas or whatever. So being able to. Try to ground that in them and try to instill that with them is, is super important for me as well. , arguably now more than ever, it's important to ensure that we're financially literate, literate, that , we're educating ourselves, we've got a strong base of habits or skills to manage our money. , you look at this society, right. Where governments are.

Justin: Overextending themselves and up to their eyeballs in debt, , spending more than they're bringing in. Nowadays, no one talks about balancing budgets anymore or anything like that. It's just, this is what we're going to do. Individual households struggle with debt. Incomes don't keep up.

Justin: We just came off a period of massive inflation , we talked about earlier in the conversation, but there's, , digital money right now you can invest in Bitcoin, other digital cryptocurrencies. , There's an increasingly amount or complex amount of whether it's product services out there or increasing need to understand and manage our finances.

Justin: How do you see the role of financial literacy? evolving over the next five years and no one has a crystal ball, but you know, we touched upon earlier, maybe, you know, is it AI that will help in that regard? , what do you see as, , the role of financial literacy evolving or even trends , of how, how it will play out?

Li: I think like all things, , automation is going to , increasingly be a thing. , perhaps, you know, you can put in your circumstance and, uh, an AI technology will pop out a financial plan for you. Or, I mean, even today, if you have any sort of robo investing or reinvesting with any of the big brokerages, most of it is AI run with minimal, , touch points from an actual human.

Li: But the thing to understand about, , financial literacy, financial wellness, is you still have to have a part to play in it. It would never get to a point where you get a paycheck and someone takes care of it. I mean, okay, if you're actually super wealthy, then that's probably a case where someone actually takes care of your needs.

Li: For most of us though, we have to do something with it. I think it will get easier, but you still have to do the first step. So for example, we always say, you know, pay yourself first. So I can automatically, you know, the moment that I know that days I'm going to get paid, I work in a job where that's scheduled.

Li: I know I'm going to get paid on, let's say the 15th. I'm gonna have, , 100 automatically go into this account. , and maybe it's a TFSA because I am saving, , for family trip or first time home buyers, because I'm saving to buy my first home. And you can automate that and that on that side. So then you don't have to think about the money comes in.

Li: So whatever's left in your account after you've paid your bills is what you can do, , in your life. So whether or not that's, you know, I want to go for a sushi dinner, , or I'd, , like to, , buy a new pair of shoes, whatever the case may be. , now you have that discretionary, , money left over, , and then on the investment side, you still have to do something with it, right?

Li: I think, I think a lot of times, and I find it very funny that, , we'll talk about, oh, you should save, , for your RRSPs and your TFSA, but oftentimes we don't. , add a sentence to say, but you must do something inside this account. A lot of people think, well, I put money into my RSPs and then they leave it there.

Li: Now, unless it's just, , a, , interest earning account, which, you know, in the last 10 years, I would say have been, , dismal at best. Yeah. You must do something with that. Now you can. automate all of that today. So to say every time I put in a hundred dollars, it will immediately buy into a fund, an ETF, a stock, whatever the case may be, or a GIC, you know, everybody's situation is different, and then it will automate that for you, so you don't have to think about it.

Li: But the initial action, you still have to take. So it is still important to For you to be engaged enough to understand and also you want to check how your, your investments are doing, how your savings are doing, because let's say you get a raise. This is the time just to evaluate, okay, can I make my a hundred dollars, , a paycheck, $105, $110, and then figure out how much you're going to need, , for your projected retirement.

Li: And it's always nice to know, and in this case, you might need to talk to a financial planner or a financial expert, , or if you are in a. You know, a retirement plan, a pension plan at work. There's oftentimes a lot of free tools and free help. , a lot of the, , insurance companies, they have people you can, you can call and speak to, and it's free of charge.

Li: They have great tools that again, are probably in the backend, all, you know, AI generated, , that you can figure out. Okay. So if I'm saving a hundred dollars a paycheck, , what am I going to retire with? Now you have to understand that there are built in assumptions to that. There's an assumption that inflation will be two percent.

Li: There's an assumption that your rate of return will be anywhere between five and seven percent. So you actually need to understand what those assumptions are and figure out if the market will deliver. Now over time, these are averages, right? And they're using historical data. , so then you can decide, okay, , It's not going to be enough for my retirement because this is the retirement that I have envisioned for myself.

Li: , and maybe I want to spend more, , or your, , 120 is more than enough. So then I can think, okay, well, if I'm increasing, , I can increase and maybe retire earlier. That could be a decision , that's in your ability. Or, , can I lower that amount so that I can do something I've always wanted to do today?

Li: Now you have choices and you have options and you're making them with information that you've thought about, that's been evaluated. And think about the kind of freedom from the stress of not knowing, , they often say like, especially for women, one of the biggest fears that women have at retirement, and this is mostly us data, , is that we have to live with roommates.

Li: Now you're never going to know if that's you, unless you look at the numbers. And think about okay, is 

Justin: that because women live longer than well, there's 

Li: I mean, that I feel like that's probably another podcast for you. It's very complicated, because it talks about, , how much less women tend to earn compared to, , male their male counterparts.

Li: There's also the, , mom penalty, so to speak, for many women, even if they don't have kids, that's a thing, if you're, , of childbearing age, , so it, there's a lot of factors that go into it, , and also remember that most financial products are built for men, not for women, , and so there's a lot that goes into that, , but, , as an individual, irrespective of gender, knowing where you're at and where you're going is so important.

Li: Like, you would never get in your car and just drive. I mean, maybe if you really like driving, but generally, if you get into your car, there's a destination in mind. So when you think about money, think about it like that, that you need to have either an idea where you're going on top of your head, or you need to turn on the GPS, but either way, you need to have a destination in mind.

Li: And so That would be kind of , my big piece to what the future is going to bring. I'm sure there will be a lot of positive and a lot of negative changes, like all things and all trends, but I do believe going back to saying that no one will care about your money more than you do. You still need to be an active participant and you at least need to make some of those initial decisions and better yet check in every quarter.

Li: If that's too much check in once a year. There's no wrong answer, but as long as you're doing something with it because we know that financial stress is really hard on families. One of the highest reasons on why, , couples get divorced. So save yourself some of that angst and spend maybe, you know, again, 10 minutes is probably all you need to review that and have a sense of, okay, we're going to be okay.

Li: I'm going to be okay. And I think that that just makes life so much easier because money and I'll use the, I think it was Forrest Gump that said, it was, it's only one less thing I have to worry about. And think about the energy you can take from the stress that would come from managing your money and putting it somewhere else.

Li: Right? Like making sure, , my kid is socializing in school. What are they going to take for their future? What summer camps am I going to put them in? I mean, these are all decisions we're making every day. And it just erodes our capacity, right? As benign as some of those decisions are. Even like, what am I going to make for dinner?

Li: What did we have yesterday? 

Justin: , great advice. Know where you're at and know where you're going. , I love that. , I want to transition to our rapid fire round here. So , question number one is if you could give one piece of financial advice to every Canadian, what would it be?

Li: Learn one thing. Financial thing every three months. 

Justin: Okay. 

Li: Just, 

Justin: just one. That's easy. Just one. Just one. That's easy homework. So, 

Li: so, so four things a year. That's all, that's, that's all I ask new things. So if you read it and you're like, Oh, I already knew that. Then that doesn't count. Okay. 

Justin: , question two is what do you have to do in your spare time?

Li: What spare time? I have a four year old. Um, so my, my spare time, , is a really spending it with my daughter. Like every, every free time I have, I, I generally am taking her to the park, , to a museum to play date. , I'm, I'm a one and done parent. Okay. , so I have learned that I need to appreciate every moment because once it's over it's over and so I like to just be around whatever it is that she's doing.

Li: Not that I'm a crazy tiger mom. , but just spending that time with her, because at some point, you know, she's gonna become a teenager and she's gonna be too cool for me and be like, no, mom. Sorry. We can't hit that. So prior to that, I will get at that point, I'll get back to my other hobbies, which would include, I do a lot of sports.

Li: , I really enjoy painting,, and a lot of kind of like artsy things that again, I haven't done in now a few years. 

Justin: When you have more time, then you, then you, uh, question three is what's the best piece of advice you have 

Li: ever been 

Justin: given? 

Li: Oh, yes. That's an easy one. Uh, your primary home is not an investment.

Li: And yeah, I have to admit, I learned that this was one of our volunteers. , who is, by all accounts, , a really, really intelligent, , CPA, , and we were talking about home ownership. This was, you know, even pro like it was pre COVID, it was, you know, like life was a lot different, but he said to me, he's like, one thing people don't understand in Canada is that your primary residence is not an investment because you have to live somewhere.

Li: So even if your house is worth a million dollars. If you want, unless you are moving to the middle of nowhere and crazily downsizing, you would still have to use that money to buy another house. So you cannot count on it for your retirement. 

Justin: Yeah. And that's a great point. I think people don't think about like that.

Justin: They think about, Oh, it's a house. It's an investment. It's going to go up in value. And, , and you're sitting on this. Pot of gold, I guess, maybe at the end, but you got to live somewhere , question number four is if you could sit down and have dinner with anyone dead or alive, who would it be? And why?

Li: Oh, man. I don't actually know. That's, oh, actually, no, I lied. I do know, , Timothy Finlay, great Canadian author, one of the, some of the most strangest and transcendent works, , I've read. I'm really into, , literature, , and my favourite book is called The Pilgrim. And it's. Very deep in the sense of it talks about the downside of immortality.

Li: And it's the story of the main character that continually is reborn. And how he starts going through these very intense psychological periods. And it was so deep at the time where I was trying to really understand what Existence now, we're, we're getting very, very philosophical here. Well, yeah, very, very existential.

Li: Sure. Um, so, so that is on kind of the, , the personal side for, , money books. I really love the psychology of money. I think it's simple, it's short, , and it's really accessible, , by Morgan Housel. , and if you haven't read it, , I encourage you to do so because it just gives you a different framework that I think many of us know.

Li: No, or have an understanding of, but he has put it in a way where you have these aha moments, , throughout the, and it's very short. It's like, you can read in an afternoon. 

Justin: Okay. And then finally, what's one conversation that you recommend parents have with their kids today about money?

Li: I would just open the conversation and see where your child is at, to be honest. , I don't know if there's actually like a lesson, because I mean, children develop at such different rates, right? I mean, when I even look at four year olds, they're very different from some who are still catching up to what they're And I quote unquote, the average is, and we know that average is really dependent on what goes into it.

Li: So it, like, I mean, I'll give you an example. My, um, daughter was born and she was on the lighter side. But when you are comparing them with, you know, different, , cultures, different backgrounds of, of babies, then yes, she's going to be on the lighter side, , because You know, her ancestry is very different than what goes on the average, and I think for, for, , for money it's the same.

Li: So, ask the question, seek to understand, be curious, , and allow your children to ask you questions about money. And that will give you an understanding of where they are at that moment. Whether they go, Oh, you know, , if you maybe pay with your phone, , is your phone like a magic ticket to, you know, getting stuff or like, what's a credit card?

Li: , how do you make money? And don't, and, and, okay, so, so there's, there's two, there's two, , schools of thought on this question where if your child asks you how much money you make. Children are not good at understanding that there are some things that we don't really like to share, uh, in, you know, let's say parent groups where we're all a part of, , so, you know, , figure out what, what you're comfortable with.

Li: With everybody else knowing, , or make it very clear that, Hey, I'm going to share this with you. This is not something I would like so and so's parents to know because sometimes money is still a very uncomfortable topic. Although I think if all of us shared. Um, some of this information as adults, we have less problems like, you know, , pay gaps, uh, when you have the same role and you're paid differently, like it would actually remove a lot of problems.

Li: , but I, I can respect that some parents are just not going to be comfortable sharing that information for whatever reason. , but have those discussions and make it so that when they have money discussions, they know, Hey, I can ask my parents because they're going to take the time to explain it to me, or they're going to say, you know what, I don't know the answer, but I should.

Li: So let's look it up together, and then you can do an activity together, and then maybe understand the history of something, which sometimes I get into with my daughter. But really be where they're at, cultivate that interest, so that again, when they get older, they're not going to avoid it, which is really what You don't want happening.

Li: You want them to be open to be curious and to continue that learning, even if perhaps you are not successful with it. But again, take that time to explain things in that moment to I mean when I take my daughter grocery shopping. I let her, you know, read all the signs of how much it is. She checks out.

Li: We'll look at the bill together. Is it right? Is it correct? Uh, or is it, is it worth that money? Right? Uh, I mean, no one wants to pay 8 for a bag of grapes. , and understanding those concepts, again, for her level. But if you have those conversations in that moment, it really removes the taboo of later having the conversations when it really matters.

Li: Right, right now it's just a bag of grapes, but money conversations get bigger. And the consequences of larger as they age, 

Justin: Meet them where they're at and make sure that line of communication is open in those conversations are had. , as we wrap up here, where can my listeners stay in touch with what you're doing, access resources that CPA Canada offers, or get involved with financial literacy programs?

Li: The best way to, , access all our materials is via our website, , which is cpacanada. ca slash financial literacy. , you can follow us on all the major social media platforms at, , at CPA Canada, and we have information that will go out on financial literacy, especially since it's financial literacy month, , we'll be sharing some new initiatives, , that we're launching, , for community, , as part of our, , you know, community engagement, , and acting in the public's interest.

Li: So, , check that out. 

Justin: Okay. Yeah. , check those links out. We'll have that in the show notes and make sure that, you know, you mentioned earlier, the people, parents, if you want to have a request, , a session in your school, in your children's class, you can do so on, on those resources that you just mentioned there and, , and get someone to come in and, and talk about financial literacy for, for 

Li: the hour, 

Justin: hour and a half.

Justin: So 

Li: absolutely. 

Justin: Definitely take advantage of that for sure. , Thank you so much for this conversation today. Such a thoughtful, , down to earth conversation, lots of examples, lots of great advice and, , tips for parents out there who are not only whether it's for their kids or also themselves on, , bettering their journey and understanding finances and money.

Justin: , so just want to thank you so much for, , for this conversation. 

Li: Thanks for having me.