Inside a Classroom Economy Where Kids Pay a Mortgage | Robert Coutts

#078. In this episode, Justin sits down with educator Robert Coutts, who has built a real-life “classroom economy” where students earn income, pay expenses, run businesses, and even pay a mortgage on their desks.

Instead of just teaching financial literacy, Robert creates an environment where kids experience money decisions every single day—learning lessons about saving, spending, investing, and responsibility in a hands-on way.

From classroom jobs to business fairs, and even dealing with debt and consequences, this system is helping students build real-world money skills long before adulthood.

We chat about how a classroom economy system actually works, the power of delayed gratification and early money habits, why ownership and accountability are important skills, and practical ways to teach money lessons at home.

Show notes and more at:

https://moneydadpodcast.com/session078

Transcript

Justin: I'm delighted to be here with my guest, Robert Coutts.

Justin: Robert has been teaching in collaboration with the Toronto Catholic District School Board since 2010. In his teaching, Robert utilizes a dynamic kid friendly approach. To classroom management facilitated through financial literacy, which encourages positive, equitable behavior and academic excellence.

Justin: His form of classroom management system serves as an economy and allows students to simultaneously feel challenged and worthwhile. He's also the author of his newly released book, I'm a Kid with a Mortgage. In our conversation today, we'll dive into the specifics of the system and how it teaches important financial literacy skills.

Justin: Robert, welcome to the MoneyDad podcast. 

Robert: Hello. Thank you for, , having me. 

Justin: I appreciate you making, uh, the time today on your, I wouldn't say day off, but you're working today. But, um, but, uh, on a PD day here you know, taking time to come on the show and share your stories and your system, uh, wanted to start off with your background.

Justin: So you know, combing through your website, you know, you mentioned that you are [00:01:00] a first generation Canadian. And the eldest of four children born in an Indian immigrant household. Maybe start us off by talking about your background growing up. You know, what did you learn about work or responsibility and education from your parents and, and maybe some important money lessons that you, yourself learned along the way.

Justin: Sure. Thank you. So yeah, as you mentioned, uh, I have, uh, three other siblings all, younger than me and, uh. Nothing too crazy. I have a very loving family. I'm very happy about that. Uh, and very loving parents. , We can't complain. I think the, I think the only thing is, uh, I feel a couple of my siblings and I, we grew up maybe a, a little bit.

Justin: Quicker than, than maybe we should have. Only 'cause my youngest brother. Mm-hmm. He has down syndrome as well as auto. He's on the spectrum of autism and he has a DHD and OCD. So he's like a powerhouse of like, excitement. . While, while my friends were going for, you know, here and there, I know that we had a structured plan of like months of like, oh, I don't [00:02:00] know, we can go on this day because he has to go here.

Justin: Can someone take care of him? Because we want to go out. So even when we were younger, we were already, we had this like structured type of plan. , But I, I, I wouldn't change anything. , The way he learns, like, you know, like he, he learns at a different level than other people. But just to see when, when he does learn something that, that sparkle in his eye.

Justin: That, you know, when something as simple as making pancakes and seeing something go from like a liquid to a solid, and then he's eating it. So it's seeing that sparkle is like, oh, like I, I love to see this everywhere. You know? So it's, 

Justin: yeah. 

Justin: And then I, I did a lot of stuff in like student government when I was, , at university.

Justin: And again, seeing students all of like, you know, around my age, but seeing them like happy, like, oh, I would love to see this. And only when I had a conversation with someone and they were telling me, oh, like, you know, you should get into teaching. , I didn't think of it at first as anything until more and more.

Justin: It, it just kept on bothering me, like, oh, I really should get into teaching. 

Justin: Mm-hmm. 

Justin: But I, I think, uh, well actually I should have started off a bit earlier [00:03:00] you mentioned about how they, how my parents sort of imparted any, , any financial wisdom. I think, uh, even when I was younger as children my siblings and I, we were given some like allowance and at that time $2 was.

Justin: Insane amount of money to us, right? 

Justin: Yeah, of course. 

Justin: So yeah, we weekly, we would have like an allowance and we would, uh, you know, do chores around the house. And we were excited. And, uh, it was, it was something that, you know, like, uh, I think, uh, they said, you know, like in, in a couple weeks, we'll, at that time you drive to the toy store, you're not getting any, getting things instantaneously.

Justin: , In a couple weeks we'll go to the toy store and you see what, you know, see if you want anything. And I remember. Thinking like, oh, like when I get there, I can't, I can't, I can't wait to see what I want. And then I, I, there, I honestly can't remember the item I wanted, but I remembered there was something that I was like, I just, I told my parents like, I, I need to get this and that.

Justin: I think one line stuck with me, which was, uh, from my parents, they said, if it's something you [00:04:00] really want, wait for a few days and see if you still want it. And it was almost that, uh, that delayed gratification, you know, it's, it's, 

Justin: hmm, 

Justin: it's, uh, I, I think that that stuck with me. And, and so something like that where I didn't feel the need to buy something right away.

Justin: Like, if I really need this, I'll, I'll come back later. And that was me as a kid. But again, with this sort of structured background where I'm like, okay, well we probably are not going for another month, but it's okay if I really want it in a month from now. I'll, I'll see if I want it done. And then it turns out I actually didn't want it.

Justin: Mm. 

Justin: So, but I don't know. I, I feel like having that type of thought process when I was younger, like I sort of I think that that implanted some sort of seed, you know, seed on me that like, you know, at that time I didn't know anything about financial literacy. 

Robert: But just the thought process of money.

Robert: What else can I say? Uh, little bit older maybe. Uh, high school now and then if I had to pay for some bill or groceries or something like [00:05:00] that. No. Maybe even early university. Yeah. I think there were times where I would have, in my wallet, I would spend whatever cash I had on whatever, and then I would get back and.

Robert: My parents were like, you like what? What's, how come you have like nothing else in, in your wallet right now? I'm like, well, I just, I just finished paying for the groceries and you know, there's, my dad was like, you know, you make sure you have some money on you. Like you never know when there's gonna be an emergency where you might need something.

Robert: And that happened frequently for like a, I don't know, over a year or something. He's like, he, he goes up to me, he takes a $20 out of his wallet, right? And says, this is my $20. I'm putting it in your wallet. If you decide to spend it, that's your emergency money. But if you spend it, you replace it right away.

Robert: 'cause that's my money. 

Robert: Mm. 

Robert: And ever since then, I've had that $20 in my wallet. And if I had to, if I spent it, I replace it immediately. 

Robert: Right. 

Robert: So I think between, between those two different memories, between waiting until I need to [00:06:00] spend for something or always having some sort of emergency money that sort of shaped.

Robert: I, uh, the way I see spending, you know, not nothing has to be urgently spent. I know, of course there are emergencies of course, but nothing has to be done immediately. 

Justin: . , Those are some great lessons there that delay gratification in terms of breaking that link between I need it now, and, you know, your parents.

Justin: Yeah. Okay. You, if you want it, you, you know, will you want this in a month? , That's a great way to. Really question whether or not you do really action fact need it or, or, you know, and wanna get it. And a great reminder for people out there that when they're spending, especially if it's discretionary spending, to have that pause mm-hmm.

Justin: Uh, to really reflect on whether that. Uh, they really need that item. And, and yeah, always having that emergency money an emergency stash in your pocket just in case you need that for something so that, those are some great principles there. ,

Justin: I was gonna ask you, you know, what you've been teaching for over 15 years now.

Justin: What inspired you to become a teacher? But it's, it almost sounds like from your early [00:07:00] days, you know, seeing that sparkle, whether it's in your brother's eyes or just taking that joy from helping others learn something or, or see something that, that sounds like that was the inspiration for becoming a teacher.

Justin: Is that, is that accurate to say? 

Robert: Yeah, I, yeah, I, I suppose that was the one, one of the main reasons it's I, I, in fact, I planned on going into business initially. Hmm. , My dad, , , when he came from India to Canada, he had I think maybe $5 in his pocket. Uh, like in That's incredible.

Robert: Yeah. 

Robert: It's, and he went from like, he stayed , with his cousins and. He just, you know, he worked part-time jobs, went to university, did co-op, eventually became, uh, chartered accountant, vice president at a construction company. 

Robert: Hmm. 

Robert: And so seeing something like that, I'm like, oh, like I'm, I'm gonna go into business.

Robert: I'm gonna follow him. You know, like yeah. That I can, I can do a accounting that should naturally come to me. It did not come to me. [00:08:00] 

Robert: So

Justin: it doesn't come to all. 

Justin: No. I 

Robert: like, and I tried and I, I knew that like, yeah. I know anytime I had an accounting assignment, I knew I ended, I just, I couldn't understand it.

Robert: And it's not, it's not like they're doing basic accounting like, you know with expenses, revenue with assets, liabilities, that stuff, that stuff I understood. Uh, but it's, it's, you know, when you're, but the actual profession, when you're getting more into, in depth, I couldn't follow some of it. And, uh, I, I felt I would do be doing a disservice if I pushed through it anyways.

Robert: And imagine then I, I would feel bad if I had a client who, you know, I, I am, I'm not completely, completely sure that's not fair to them.

Robert: And at the same time, I mentioned how I had a conversation with someone who, uh, they said, oh, like, you know, you'll be a good teacher. And I'm like. Huh. Like, and, and I, I have, I have, uh, many cousins in, in teaching and

Robert: my uncle was in teaching and he ended up becoming like superintendent and stuff like that, so I'm like, I'm like that.

Robert: I guess that, that sounds kind of [00:09:00] interesting. Then after I started thinking like, oh, like, you know, like I used to be a camp counselor and kids sort of like naturally gravitated towards me and I just, I had fun doing it. 

Robert: Yeah. 

Robert: And then on top of that again, so every time I see my brother, youngest brother learning something, I'm just like, oh, like that is so cool.

Robert: Like, I wish, I wish I could do that, like all the time. And then I couldn't stop that thought, couldn't, didn't stop bothering me until I was like, I think I had that conversation with my, I think my dad and sister was in the room. I, I'm like, and this is after four years of being in university for business and.

Robert: And, uh, yeah, I was like, I think I wanna be a teacher. Mm. And complete silence, you know, just, it was, I was like, ah, this is the worst feeling ever. Okay. Uh, and then I think it was my sister who said something like, I could see that. 

Robert: Mm-hmm. 

Robert: And then I was just, oh. And then after my dad was like, yeah, well, you know, like.

Robert: You, you've been in this for four years, like, but if, if you really feel that's something that you wanna do, then 

Robert: yeah, 

Robert: then set. And again, the structure, set up an outline and, you [00:10:00] know, get, you know, maybe you can present something to myself and. , Your mom and will see from there. But like, you know, you have to really work hard if you're gonna de, you know, decide to change things, 

Robert: right?

Robert: And, but I couldn't get the thought out out of my head, and so then I went full steam head into teaching and, uh, uh, it was definitely the, the best choice I've made. 

Justin: Awesome. , It's always. It's better to figure out your passion and what you wanna do whether it's later and, you know, after the four years of business school, but better, better late than never.

Justin: And, and sounds like it's really worked out for you. I wanted to. Talk about the classroom economy system that you've set up for the kids in your classes that you teach. For those listening out there who are unfamiliar with that term, can you just explain, you know, what does, what is the classroom economy system like?

Justin: What does that mean? And then walk us through its purpose and, and talk us through how you've set it up. 

Robert: A classroom economy, or just like it is, it's. Economy in, in [00:11:00] itself, you are, you are. There's transactions, you're paying for, you're paying, you're people are investing, spending. It's, it's, you know, that's how the world works for the most part.

Robert: Everything's based on money and transactions. And I felt like the same thing could be done in my classroom. Uh, and it, it, I I'm not by me no means I'm not the creator of this. This has been around for some, some time. I, I think even when I was in elementary school, there were some teachers who did maybe like a token system or some sort of stars or points or, you know, you, you get group points.

Robert: I think even what Harry Potter, they have points as well, like, you know, they have how house points. Yeah. So everything sort of like went towards this, you know, like this type of just, uh, again, very EV varies based on the grade level and, and also what the teacher wants to do. For my classroom economy now, it, it has developed over the years, so it has changed quite a bit.

Robert: Uh, but on a given day, the bell [00:12:00] rings like everyone has a job. Mm-hmm. So I'll have one person. Making sure everyone is nice in a nice straight line. Another person making sure everyone is quiet. One person's opening the door, another person is greeting them. You know, like, you know, how's, how's the day going?

Robert: Or, you know, nice hat miss. Or like, it's such, so they can be funny and put their own personality in it. Another person is making sure all the backpacks are hung up on the hooks. Another person's making sure the shoes are tidied. All the agendas are open. Another person's making sure all the agendas are signed, or if there's any agenda notes, they bring it to my desk.

Robert: Mm-hmm. 

Robert: We have. People wiping the boards. People change, like flipping the date. If there's a, if the, like I have a, just a date that gets flipped as opposed to just writing the date. 

Robert: Okay. 

Robert: So, but the every single thing there, there's, you know, people are sweeping the floors. I have one person at the front who's making sure everyone is doing their jobs.

Robert: They're like the class administrator. 

Robert: Ah, 

Robert: mind you, that person gets chosen only by interview. And I also have, uh, like every, everyone has a job and they're all getting paid for these jobs. Every, every, you [00:13:00] know, we get paid biweekly. So do they? Yeah. And then, and I have a banker who takes care of that.

Robert: The administrator sits down with the banker and says, yeah, this person did their job, this person did their job, and you know, oh, this person was doing a, you know, went above and beyond. Then they'll just double check like, can we pay this person more? I'm like, yeah, sure. If you feel that they did everything, but they're completely accountable.

Robert: They have complete ownership over everything. And so it's, it, it runs itself to the point where like, I can actually just go and do what I'm supposed to do with, which is teach, 

Robert: right? 

Robert: They, they run themselves. I have a class president who, if there happens to be some sort of problem, you know, like I'm not talking about like you know, severe problems, uh, of, of course anything to do with violence or swearing and like, you know, you don't want that happening, but unfortunately it does.

Robert: But 

Robert: yeah. 

Robert: The, if it's something sort of minor, the, I have a class president who deals with conflicts, who's a problem solver, who takes care of, they, they work, they work on behalf of the people. Uh, right. And so, as [00:14:00] opposed to me getting in involved, and then, you know, like sometimes we get straight to like, you know, like, what happened?

Robert: What happened? Talk to both parties. And the president does that as well. But then they make sure that, you know, like, okay, well I'll just let you know. I'll let your, I, I'll let Mr. Coots know. 

Robert: Mm-hmm. 

Robert: So it's, uh, it's, yeah, it. It's now become so organic, it's become like a, you know, like a, just a, a co a complete economy.

Robert: And it takes care of classroom management. It takes care of like all their, like for us, we have learning skills. 

Robert: Yeah. 

Robert: And every single learning skills I could touch on right now where it, it works towards that,

Justin: as you say that it's beautiful actually to hear that.

Justin: 'cause it, it sounds like it's a, a well-oiled machine where Yes, it lets you focus on teaching and not being, you know, the disciplinarian, the, you know, making sure everyone's like taking care of what they need to do. , It sounds like it gives obviously the kids the autonomy and the responsibility.

Justin: Mm-hmm. Um, and, and just to back up, so what, what age range do you, or [00:15:00] grades do you typically teach or, or roll those out to? 

Robert: I, I have taught grade three. I would feel comfortable doing it with even grade two, like this exact economy. I could do it with grade two. Mm-hmm. I take a little bit longer to sort of introduce to them.

Robert: Uh, I, but I can do it. I would say grade two and onwards. I think, uh, the, the older the grade, the more complex it has to be. 

Robert: Yeah. 

Robert: Like right now I have the, uh. The memes going around right now, the, the six, seven, I have the, uh, 

Justin: that thing, it does not die. It does not die. 

Robert: It is not, but yeah, right now I have grades, I have grades six, seven right now.

Robert: And, and I've had some students that are repeating in my class right now, and yet they still find it completely different for them. Mm-hmm. And, or at least not, if not different, at least challenging. And there's different ways of. Doing well in the class as well. Uh, student, you know, right now in order to learn in, in this classroom, in order to sit at their desks and, and.

Robert: You know, use the textbooks they have to pay into a mortgage. [00:16:00] 

Robert: Mm-hmm. 

Robert: Their desk is, you know, typically 20 school days. 

Robert: Yeah. 

Robert: They are then paying a mortgage for a mortgage of 20 for that month, and there's 10 months. So 10 times 20. They're paying 200 for their desk to, uh, to sit at what I like to call their beautiful condominium desk property, and.

Robert: So they are working and working until they, so all their jobs. Some people wanna have multiple jobs. They wanna, you know, get to that 200. Some people, I, I also pay people if they stay in at recess to help with errands. First and third recess are the smaller recesses for us. 

Robert: Lunch, recess, I want them go out, get fresh air and everything.

Robert: But sometimes some people just wanna stay in, but yeah, first and third recess, those are each, each get one for that. Their jobs typically range between one to three. I have my, my, uh, dollars are my, your cos, so I, I call them cot. Coutts Coins. 

Robert: Cots coins thing. 

Robert: Yeah. 

Robert: Catchy. 

Robert: Prior to the pandemic, it was Coutts Cash.

Robert: I had physical money and tangible, which I did [00:17:00] prefer having that tangible 'cause. Nowadays everything is el electronic and virtual, so then they can't, sometimes it's, it's nice for them to sort of have that. Feeling towards it. But, uh, yeah, since, uh, I taught the vir, the pandemic I taught virtually, and so I changed it.

Robert: You know, cryptocurrency went to Coutts coins, 

Robert: And, uh, even, you know, it, it changed some stuff. I think also with younger students, I had, unfortunately you have some of the negatives that you have in a normal, a normal, uh, society. Yeah. I have people with some sort of sometimes stealing.

Robert: I've had a black market. Oh yeah. I've had counterfeit.

Justin: It's a part of the economy. This, it doesn't, 

Justin: doesn't it?

Robert: It was a whole world in itself. Yes. And, but I think, uh, going into the virtual. Everything became transparent. There was one ledger that everyone sort of sees where they stand and mm-hmm. And everyone was, was okay with it.

Robert: So it took care of that. And yet they can still sort of follow the money amounts. So, but yeah, they, they work until they hit their 200. And there's other ways they, they can also get more [00:18:00] coins if they get an A or a, they get one if they get an A plus. Two. Perfect. Three. We typically have three assessments per week.

Robert: So they're getting up to, up to nine per week just for assessments. 

Robert: If they're staying in for recesses, they're, they could get maybe like, you know, depending if they stay in just first recesses, they get five. 

Robert: So, uh, initially when I first taught and I was teaching grade, uh, or when I did did this with grade threes, I used to have rent and they paid and each, so I would give them 20 and say.

Robert: You're starting this off similar to what my, my dad said this is my 20 I'm giving you. 

Robert: Yeah. 

Robert: And then you give this back one, give, give one back to me each day. And I had a cash collector going around. Boy, did they, they hit, did they hate the cash collector? Like, I'm like, this is, I'm like, this is not their fault.

Robert: This is their, like, they were so mad. , Once I went to older grades, I think they. They talked to me into like, let's, let's change the system a bit. Yeah. Where older we can take, they had, they said, and the whole point of this whole thing is [00:19:00] we can be more accountable, we can have this ownership.

Robert: Mm-hmm. Like, so then I said like, maybe we'll say that you owned it, owned the desks. Yeah. Maybe this is yours now. It's your, it's a mortgage you are paying into, you're gonna buy this. 

Justin: Mm-hmm. 

Justin: Interesting. 

Justin: Okay. So that's why, that's why now it's, it's a desk with a mortgage.

Justin: You own it, right? Yes. Quote unquote own it. Yes. Uh, okay. I see the evolution. Yeah. 'cause I've heard different systems where it's desk rent. Mm-hmm. Um, whereas this is, this is your paying off or your mortgage. Okay. Interesting. Yes. Interesting. What I've read is that, um, there's also ways to earn Coutts coins in the form of.

Justin: Um, let's say if they have entrepreneurial type skills, like, so there's a job maybe to start, quote unquote start a business and, and sell things. Do you, do you incorporate that as part of your system as well? 

Robert: Yes. Yes. It's funny actually, that initially happened unintentionally my first few years of teaching when I was just still, still working things out.

Robert: I remember I had one [00:20:00] student who, you know, these, it happens where they don't have, they don't have the greatest relationship with school. And, and 

Robert: They just felt quite disengaged and, you know, I brought the system in. And again, they're not, they're, they're not handling it very well at first. Eventually the student realized like, in order to do wellness class, I need money.

Robert: This student went to the grocery store one day, picked up a hundred pack of candy, okay? The next day. The next day brought it in during lunch, recess. No, I didn't know this. During lunch, recess, this student sold. Each of those hundred candies each for, at that time I had KOUTS cash. So yeah, they sold, they got a hundred kouts cash by the end of that lunch recess. And I was like, oh my goodness, did they just break my entire system? I'm like, but I like, but then I was like, why not embrace this now? Yeah. That again, that was sort of my black market example as well, where like you can't run a business without disclosing it. I knew it happened, but I didn't wanna point out the student.

Robert: So I just sort of made a declaration to [00:21:00] the class. So, you know, like anyone who wants to run a business. You are welcome to do so. Mm-hmm. But there will be a business license and there will be a tax to their profits that you make. 

Robert: So as long as whoever and anyone who wants to make a business, you're welcome to do so.

Robert: However, if I find out there are illegal businesses being run, then I will have to take some stricter actions. Uh, by the end of the day, this person came forward and said. I, I, I have, uh, have a business I would like, but I, you know, I'm, I'm hoping I can still run it. I, I, you know, and we have a peanut free school.

Robert: I said, you know, we have to check to see, I'll check with the principal. You can sell, sell this. I have to check with your parents here. You're, you know, you can just, you, you're allowed to bring in. This, uh, you know, you have money for this. I don't want you to just, and using your own money or for all this, you're welcome to also create other types of things.

Robert: But oh my goodness, by having that, it started this whole new level of like, okay, businesses are now gonna be part of my classroom economy. 

Robert: Mm-hmm. 

Robert: Uh, you [00:22:00] pay 20 coins, you can now have your own business. 

Robert: Mm. 

Robert: And I think the last few years I started doing a business fair. Where I think, uh, so some people like the idea of business, but then they're like, oh, I don't know if I'm gonna pay 20 and I don't know if I'm gonna get enough profit back.

Robert: Which again, very, very smart of them to think like, yeah, if they pay 20, they wanna make sure they at least get their 20 back.

Robert: Brilliant to think about. Also a lot of students, they don't feel that it, that doesn't entice them. So then in around February, March, I do a business fair where everyone.

Robert: We'll create a business and we do full out, like Dragons Den, shark Tank. Oh yeah. Where they, they, they, they pitch a business. Yeah. Uh, to myself. I bring in the whole school and they sort of, they, they're now, they pitch a business to the school or, uh. But it's classes at a time. We don't have like a whole business pitch in front of the whole, like on the stage.

Robert: Oh, 

Robert: okay, okay. Yeah. 

Robert: But, uh, so in the classroom they sort of set up, they have maybe a backdrop. They, they can advertise their company, their business however they want. [00:23:00] And I've had people do like origami businesses, uh, digital backgrounds, sticker businesses, flower bouquet type of thing. So it's, uh, it's.

Robert: Amazing the creativity that people are willing to do. Even even a, a tutoring business. In fact, one tutoring business said, well, like, I don't know if people are gonna pay me, because I'm like, they'd rather not. No, they'd rather not lose any money. They, and no guarantee that they might, you know, be successful.

Robert: Mm-hmm. 

Robert: They said, they looked at me and said like, what if. You paid us. So like if it's, if,

Robert: like they're like, we'll be more encouraged to get clients to make sure that they do better in your class. Their grades will go up and in, in return you would pay us for this. I'm like, huh, you just convinced me to invest into your business.

Justin: Well, it's 

Justin: instead of a, instead of a B two instead of B2C or business to consumer, they're going B2B, they're going directly to you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Well, yeah, it sounds, it sounds like, yeah, there's so [00:24:00] much creativity that can be unlocked , through that, and that's neat that you do sort of Dragons den style Yeah.

Justin: To the business Fair too. That's cool. What's the most that surprised you about the kids' behavior once you start implementing the system, uh, in your classrooms? 

Robert: Uh. Some kids can be very funny. I, I've, and, and it's interesting the ways how some students spend their money too.

Robert: So the, the one funny example I had was, uh, I remember I was I had just, uh, finished reading out the math test to everyone. They're all sitting down there at their desks. I'm at my desk, I'm doing my, doing my own work and now, and then checking on the class. 

Robert: And then I have a kid that comes up to me and says.

Robert: I bought that, I'm like, bought what? Apparently. I, uh, in my earlier years, I put my desk was allowed to be bought and or rented for, for the day. They can buy, they can rent my desk and they could rent my, uh, teacher's chair. And so I. Proceeded to then [00:25:00] move my stuff. The banker Al already wrote it on the board.

Robert: I just, I did not see it. So I then had to move my stuff and this student then brought their test and sat at my desk while I then sat at this kid's desk doing my work. So sometimes, yeah, very funny. Other times it's, it's fascinating how I can sometimes see how the parents spend money based on how the kid spends money.

Robert: I, we have, uh, we have. 

Justin: That's interesting. 

Robert: And at the front of the class we have, uh, penthouse, desks, penthouse. You know, if you think of an apartment building you have 

Robert: Yeah. 

Robert: Penthouse is the best, , seats in the house. They have the best, the highest floor. They get the best view. Any, everyone now fights to be at the front of the class.

Robert: That's the penthouse. Penthouse are reserved. Demand for whoever, whoever wants to spend more gets us in front and. Shocking where people are like wanting to sit in front. But so every day the the penthouse is full. I have other students who they don't have enough money for mortgage. Or at that time, even before they didn't have enough [00:26:00] money for rent.

Robert: And yet they are buying, we have office chairs that are like at like more of a luxury item. Right? And they like, it's three for half a day. They only make three in a week. Sometimes it's three for half a day. And some kids will buy it for a full day, for days on end. I'm like, you have to learn how to save.

Robert: This is, you know, again, do you really need this? It needs versus wants, do you really need this right now? Do you have enough money to get through the month? You know, and I'll say it like, you know, sometimes you ha you happen to get in trouble sometimes. 

Robert: Do you think you know now and then if you happen to get in trouble, if you don't do your homework, if you have to pay one, do you have enough for those possible consequences and you're gonna still buy this chair?

Robert: So, and, and yet, sometimes I'll see again the, their, their parents as well. They don't have enough. Money for, you know, maybe a, a class trip, but then I'll see them, right. You know, I'll hear, the student will come and tell me that, you know, they bought a new flat screen tv. Right. So I'm like, right. You know, like it, and of course a cla I'm [00:27:00] not gonna, I won't argue.

Robert: , I understand they, they might choose the, you know, this class trip is not worth it or that's fine. But it is just, it's, I seeing how the kids spend money. Sometimes I can see also how. Where they got those examples of their money spending from. 

Justin: Yeah. Well and that makes, and that makes a ton of sense.

Justin: 'cause they, they, the example they see is, is through their parents. Right. And so, 

Justin: correct. 

Justin: That's why, I mean, one of the things that motivated me to start this podcast was I want to see if we can reach kids sooner and, and. Provide them with the right and proper foundation to, you know, get a deeper understanding of money, financial literacy, so that they can you know, they don't have to make the same mistakes as, let's say we did, or my, our parents did, um mm-hmm.

Justin: Growing up. So, um, that's interesting. Do you ever, do you have situations where kids go broke? They don't have enough money to pay for, whether it's the mortgage or, or other expenses in the classroom or fines 

Justin: that 

Justin: has, what 

Justin: do 

Justin: you do that you, [00:28:00] what do you do? 

Robert: Yeah. Yeah. That has happened. That does happen.

Robert: And it will still likely happen. And you know, sometimes I'm like, oh, I think, you know, is this this system? Is this system too harsh? And one, sometimes the real world that happens, you don't like know. There's no. Payout. And now depending on the kids, of course, depending on their circumstances, I'll talk with them separately and see what we can do to also get them you know, so they can get reach positively.

Robert: I'll try to also find out why did they lose money.

Robert: Typically the only way of losing money is neglecting to do whe whether it's homework or mis, and basically misbehavior some sort of form of misbehavior. 

Robert: That's the, that's the only way they, they lose money. Mm-hmm. So. So yes, it, it does happen.

Robert: And, uh, so to pay their debt to society, they stay in at recess and then they earn a coin back.

Robert: Or they'll do some sort of extra task or whatever it might be, but we find a way of sort of getting them above. Yeah. Now it's, it still happens where. [00:29:00] If, you know, and if I, if someone is so far, so far gone, I, it's, I don't also wanna penalize 'em, I'm gonna add a tax to them.

Robert: They're, they're gonna feel even more disincentized. 

Robert: Mm-hmm. 

Robert: But again, finding that sort of, that, that carrot something that they're interested in, e every month we do a, we also do a raffle. We do every, uh, we do a auction. We also do a month end movie. Sometimes I'll make a deal with them, like, you know, if you do these few things, 

Robert: We can still make sure you have enough money to pay for your movie ticket, but you have to promise me to do this, this, this.

Robert: So sometimes I work with those students to make sure, depending on what it is,

Robert: but there, there are ways so that they can, you know. Become a more productive person. And but there, there are also times where , I'll look at it and see like they are making progress. It's not like they're all of a sudden they just keep going lower and lower.

Robert: I like, uh, the example I gave before where like there was a student who she, you know, this person went and bought a bunch of candy, but this person also [00:30:00] realized even after we talked about this whole, you know, business license and all that stuff. This person realized having that money was better.

Robert: I gave her that accountability. 

Robert: This person started actually changing their life around in the class. To the point where even the principal noticed later on as well, this person there was less misbehavior. Yeah. This person was studying more. They made friends with people that they know were gonna be more of a positive influence.

Robert: They realized it was better to , be more of a positive, positive role model than keep on losing money, so 

Robert: I do believe that even those that end up going into the negatives, even though there it might be just one student, maybe two students, they do see the positives of trying their best to get out of it, or at least they don't keep, they don't keep going down.

Justin: , what better way or time to get that practice in? As a, as a kid, as a child going through it, you know, with you know, pretend, pretend money and, and [00:31:00] but that's, that's a beautiful example of, , someone who learns the lesson and then, and then takes positive steps towards improving and, and, uh.

Justin: It resulting in a better result?

Justin: Imagine. Oh, exactly. Oh, I imagine. 

Justin: Whether it's behavior or otherwise. 

Robert: Yeah. I imagine that like this is just, you know, this is just classroom money, right? At the end of the day, at end of the year, it's sort of poof, you know? Whereas imagine doing the same thing. They're like now 25, and now going through these same real life struggles.

Robert: Hopefully this is something that they remember like, oh, I can't do this again. 

Justin: Running a classroom economies sounds like it's clearly beneficial for both, you know, the students, the kids that are in it, as well as you, as you know, as a teacher running that. 

Justin: Mm-hmm. 

Justin: I'm, I'm curious, so should families run a mini economy at home?

Justin: And if a parent listening out there wants to try this, where, where could they start? 

Robert: It depends on, so, so, yes. Uh, it, it depends on. How, how much the parent also wants to implement this with their [00:32:00] children. I know for even for me to do this classroom economy, it sometimes takes a month or two to set up.

Robert: Mm-hmm. So it doesn't, it doesn't happen right away. Now I fine tuned, fine tuned it, so it's maybe two to three weeks. But that took me, this is my, my 15th year of teaching. Right. So it's, it does take some time to sort of get everyone understanding. Now I have a, I've created like a whole financial literacy unit where.

Robert: We go through, you know, needs and wants and supply and demand and, you know, do you really need this right now? 

Robert: And so same thing if a parent decides to do this at home with their, their children. And I have had some parents that, you know, they have had their own family dollars and they've had some students do enough.

Robert: You know, an, an amount of chores they can, then they earn this dollar and not so many dollars buys a reward. 

Robert: So it depends, you know, the parent would have to come up with what a reward system would be, what the child would gain out of this. I truthfully, if I were to do that with my children, I would sort of, depending on how old they are.

Robert: I would [00:33:00] actually come up with the system with the children. Let them be part of the, part of that discussion, give them that ownership and that accountability. I know something like, uh, maybe it's not to necessarily system, classroom economy type of thing in, in the, in the, uh, family unit, but. When I, one time for a non-classroom economy thing for financial literacy.

Robert: I took my students to a grocery store one time. 

Robert: And we, you know, we had some, we had fundraise some money and even the whole fundraiser, that's a separate thing now for field trips, but even the fundraiser, I turned the whole gym into an arcade. Uh, and they sell pop and chips and books and toys.

Robert: All the students are either cashiers or salespeople. They're in charge of everything I sort of supervise. And in fact. The incentive for the school is they get to play video games against me, and if they beat me, they get a free popper chips. Uh, so I, that's cool. And my students know this, so they know I'm, leave me alone.

Robert: We have to run this. And they have that accountability. 

Robert: Mm-hmm. 

Robert: You know, and then again, later on in [00:34:00] the year, I take my students to a grocery store, give them each $10 as a group. And then they have to decide what do we want? You know, if we're gonna have a class party at the end of the year, what do we want?

Robert: Each group has to talk to one another. Yeah. They have to negotiate. You can't have duplicates. We don't want like 40 bags of chips. 

Robert: And, and can you also look at the, when you know, we know the grocery store we're going to, can you get, you know, maybe can you get deals? Can you get an amount of items that the class wants?

Robert: Don't just get me. You know, 30, 30 something, some item that no one wants but talk with each other. Make sure we have cup and plates also sorted out. Make sure we're everyone can have it. It takes care of allergies. The same thing can be done with the family, , if all these are examples where they learn about money and give them the cash, but it's, they learn about money by doing it.

Robert: They take that sense of accountability and ownership by actually, you know, if they decide to food prep with their, family, they [00:35:00] sort of say, okay, well we're in charge of snacks. The kids are in charge of snacks. We are gonna make sure we have to have maybe three or four healthy items. And then you could have one or two.

Robert: Unhealthy items. 

Robert: So those are the requirements. Here's the money and here you go. Or, or, or, let me know what you wanna buy. Let me know how much it comes to. And do you think that will be enough for maybe this $20 I give you?

Robert: Same thing if now a parent wants to do a.

Robert: Sort of a mini economy in their home. 

Robert: They could come up with their, with their economy, with their, kids. , Let it be a sort of organic discussion. , What reward do you feel is reasonable? That you should get if you do this, this, this, this.

Robert: And there are also some families of like, you know, we don't necessarily need to have a reward system. Like being part of a family is, you mean, or means that you are doing this.

Robert: But you know, it's easier telling a 4-year-old than actually, than, than actually happening, you know? Right, 

Robert: right, right.

Robert: It's a little bit of both. 

Justin: . So it sounds like what you're saying is that it can be done at home but if you do [00:36:00] it. Design it with your child and think about and consider the things that motivate them or that part of the incentives. , And then talk about like what, how you can incorporate 

Justin: it into your family life.

Justin: For those that wanna try that. 

Justin: Although it, yeah, obviously it takes a lot of time and, and work and effort to, to set it up in the first place. Okay, great. , You recently published the book. , I'm a kid with a mortgage book. Congratulations on that. 

Justin: Thank you. 

Justin: What, , what drove you to, to write the book?

Robert: One, I think, I think it was actually, it was probably mainly for me. Uh, like I, I introduced the economy to my class anyway, so I'm like, well, how cool would it be if I just. Read the book of how it in gets introduced, might expedited, expedite the time. I think I, I knew actually I wanted to write a book about something and, and initially I was even thinking about my youngest brother.

Robert: But I also realized I don't know enough about Down syndrome, about autism, about OCD, about a DHD. [00:37:00] It was not something where I knew I wanted to write something and I knew it was, that was definitely something I was passionate about. 

Robert: I know there are a lot more knowledgeable people than me in each of each aspect of what, what makes him who he is.

Robert: And I'm only seeing the brother's perspective. 

Robert: So it's, I, I felt that would do a, a disservice. But then after I was like, I, then I had this wanting of still creating a book and then I started thinking, what else is I passionate about? And it was, I think, discussion with my wife where we were just.

Robert: Like I, almost every day I'm talking about this classroom economy. Yeah. Like, oh, can you believe like this person did this? And even the other day, one person, uh, during an auction, they would, they, they got in, they got in the heat of the auction. You know, like one person, they see an item, then a person raised their hand, okay, I'll get it.

Robert: Then another person, they're 

Robert: bidding it. Yeah, 

Robert: they're bidding when they didn't have enough money. Yeah. Like, like they went, they were going into debt out of just excitement, you know? Yeah. Or I saw again, I came home another day and I [00:38:00] saw I think so One, one cool thing is once, once a student buys their condominium property, once they spend their 200 

Robert: They now own the property. They now have extra privileges that no one else does.

Robert: They don't even need to participate in the auction. If they want a prize for some items, they can just buy, say like a video game spot. Uh, one item that, or even say these office chairs, they can buy at a discounted price.

Robert: One cool incentive that the class talked me into. I'm like, at first I didn't know if I found it, found it fair or not, but I went with it and it's, it's been in the system for, since several years now, where all condo owners and, you know, if you can upgrade your condo for, to a house for 50 more, uh, but all condo and house owners, 

Robert: They are allowed to purchase extra votes.

Robert: Okay. So and again, I, I disagreed with it at first. I'm like, uh, but you know, we'll try it out. So one time , there are two options between two different movies. One was maybe at 25, 1 was at 10, one condo owner purchased, and now the movie that was at 10, we're now [00:39:00] watching that as our class movie for the month.

Robert: Mm-hmm. So sometimes it, it annoys people. But then I also saw one student who. Had the most amount of money, uh, like over 200. This is after having a condo they had over like 200, 

Robert: right? 

Robert: And so anytime they, the class saw this person go to stand up to talk to me, this, it's a secret vote, uh, secret amount of money you're spending.

Robert: So they, this person came up to me and said, I have no intention of actually spending any money. I just want the class to be thinking I'm going to scare them. Then sat down and I was shocked. I'm like, that was so amazing. And just that, , that motivation that to just think of like, wow, they, they're already scared of what I can do this.

Robert: And, and so next thing you know, I had students coming after student saying, we wanna spend on the other move I spent on, and they just kept on spending more and more money. Meanwhile, this one kid spent nothing but the, just that competition just to that. Just the value [00:40:00] that they saw in them, their money.

Robert: Like, no, we have to beat her in, in him, him or her in what they, you know, we want to get to make sure we get this. It turns out this person spent nothing. 

Robert: Right. 

Robert: And they spent almost all their money to the point where now she's even, like, now her dollar means even more Now 

Robert: she, 

Robert: because 

Justin: she really knows, she, she's figuring out how to get ahead.

Robert: Yes. It was a, a amazing, yeah, and so I'm like, I, this has to be a book. This has to be at least. The introduction to it. 

Robert: I'm like, I need, I, I want this to be something that other teachers can use. Other students can read it and say like, oh, like I, I, I, I have a colleague who read this to her, her children, and then her children now wanna, they, they, during the summer, they made like a little bookmark business and they, like, they started selling bookmarks and it was, it was so cute.

Robert: Like, she sent me pictures and everything and, and, but to just. Whether it was for kids, whether it was for teachers and for teachers, they can just use as a, as a full out blueprint, 

Robert: To do their own classroom economy. I, again, they can change the [00:41:00] levels of how they wanna do it, but I just, I felt there's so many materials on classroom economies.

Robert: There's so many, you know, um, teachers pay teachers and all this type of stuff. There's so, so much that is available yet. Not one children's picture book on it. Right. And because it's been around for over a decade and not one children's picture book to say, like, to just tell the kids, instead of telling this, oh, this is what we're gonna do and this is how much it's gonna be worth, just read it to them and see the pictures.

Robert: And then they can get that value and that they know pictures attract them and, and it, this is, I'm saying even as when I was a university student, our teacher brought out, or professor brought out a picture book. We were all like fixated. 

Robert: Because that, that never happens anymore. You bring out a picture book, even to grade eights, they will look and they will listen to every single word.

Robert: So it doesn't matter what age. 

Justin: It definitely is a different spin on it because you're right, it, it comes from, the book is written from the perspective [00:42:00] of the child and what they see. In the classroom as part of this classroom economy system. So it could be intended for the kid who's reading it, who's trying to understand what this is all about.

Justin: But also for teachers who are looking at how to implement this, it is like a. Like a 

Justin: blueprint of 

Justin: How they could design the system and then see the impact it has on, on the kids in, in the, um, in the book. So yeah, it is definitely a , unique take on things. 

Justin: So if a child, if you know, a child reading the book, if, if there's one thing that they could take away from it or one thing that they learn from it, what would, what would you want that to be?

Robert: . So what, my example where the student, they, they choose what they wanna do is taking, having that ownership over their decisions, I think is what I would like the students to get or anyone to get most outta the book. I think by having that ownership, they, again, they decide how their education should be.

Robert: And at the start of the year, I typically say that [00:43:00] to the students, this is your own education. You decide what you wanna do with this. I'm here teaching, teaching you the lessons. But it's, it's up to you to have that, you know, ability to try it. You, you try to the best of your ability. 

Robert: So I think if they have that ownership, they can sort of take that and they're accountable.

Robert: They take it as, as they want. 

Justin: Yeah. And a lot of it comes to, what you put into something is what you get out of it, right? So 

Justin: yes, 

Justin: Having them take accountability and ownership over their decisions and those decisions, you know, no, no judging, , different people make different decisions, but but the fact that you have that accountability and ownership over it is the most important skill or or thing from that.

Justin: That's great. I want to do a rapid fire round on you. 

Robert: Um, 

Justin: Allowance. Should we do an allowance? Should we give our kids an allowance? 

Robert: Yes. I, I think, again, have the discussion with your kids, but, uh, I think yes, they, it's almost nice to have that tangible amount in front of them.

Robert: They can feel what sometimes a [00:44:00] dollar is worth. 

Robert: Everything is now just online. It's, it's, it's, they don't, they don't get to sort of see it anymore. It's, Hey, I want that item there. Just bought it. You know?

Justin: , That tangibleness is, is so important and it's hard.

Justin: It's gets harder now that everything's so digital. Um, 

Justin: yeah. 

Justin: Best age to open their first bank account. What do you think? 

Robert: Now people can open the accounts even for, for when they're even a baby now for their, but I think for kids to have their, I think when they have their ownership over that, again, if say they, well, they start understanding what the dollar means to them.

Robert: Grade one, two, maybe three, where they start, okay, well this is how much a dollar is worth, or this is, you know, I can, I just bought this, this item. I think if I have, you know, say 200 of these, that this, I can now. Why not put it in there? Now the, the next thing to the go with them is, you know, you wanna open a bank.

Robert: It's, start that conversation of potential, like investing. Yeah. This can grow if, uh, you put this into the bank. Yeah. This can [00:45:00] be more money later on. 

Justin: Yeah. Make it work. Or make it work for you. Right? Yes. Make those dollars work for you. , One money habit that every family should build. 

Robert: We sort of just talked about like saving, investing.

Robert: Of course keep, you know, you you wanna keep some money for you too. Like you almost divide, say whether it's a paycheck or whether it's even just say $10, keep some for savings, keep some for charity, keep some for like, sort of, sort of again, it should be a discussion, but sort of keep a little bit for save for later, have that emergency money.

Robert: Uh, it took me. What early university for me to understand, like I should have that emergency on money on me. And so it's like I still have my dad's 20. So it's, it's having those conversations, but sometimes they need to go through that, that experience to understand that. 

Justin: Yeah. And those lessons.

Justin: Okay. Anything, uh, we didn't cover today that you feel like we should cover before we sign off? 

Robert: No, , I'm happy with, I guess everything we've talked [00:46:00] about. , The more I think that you're doing that, you're doing the same thing, it's, which is amazing, is the more I think the kids know about money, the more that they learn about saving, spending, budgeting, investing the better off they'll be.

Robert: I think there's, it's being a teacher knowing. It's not taught enough. , As of 2020, the, in the curriculum, it was just introduced financial literacy. And I've read the financial literacy portion of the curriculum in and out and , it can be up for interpretation, how much more we can add to it.

Robert: So I think it's always good to have these conversations. So it, it's, if anything, I, you know, thank you and for everything that you are doing, it's having these types of conversations that make the kids better. 

Justin: Oh yeah. Yeah. And absolutely. I thank you for, um, for saying that, and it's so important to make sure that we, you know, in the family, have those conversations.

Justin: So we normalize discussions about money, right? And we talk about, and, and really try to equip our kids so that they can learn and, and get a better understanding. So as we wrap up here, where can, people follow what you're doing or pick up a copy of your [00:47:00] book? 

Robert: My book is available on Indigo, Barnes and Noble Amazon, anyone in Canada.

Robert: I prefer people going to my website Coutts coin publishing.com. Uh, and in fact, getting it from there. , It'll be me who's sending it. It's a, I'm a small local business, so it'll be me sending it, but I'll also, not only will you get the hardcover book, I'll also send you. A free activity coloring and activity and coloring ebook.

Robert: If you're a teacher, please let me know. Then we'll also send you a 15 day financial literacy unit for free as well. 

Robert: So all these things are, are available that I've put them on, you know, teachers, pay teachers, and then I know it's, again, it is easier for people to order online.

Robert: But if, if you're in Canada, go with Coutts publishing.com. Okay. Everywhere else outside the world, it's probably, yeah, one of those other online or probably better than.

Justin: Okay. Awesome. And we'll have those links in the showing as well. And I know you have some book signings coming up as well. Maybe also just share where, you know, [00:48:00] if people wanna pick up a copy and, and get them signed by you.

Justin: , Where they can go to do that. 

Robert: Yes. I'm doing a whole Indigo book tour right now. Went in February to Oshawa. There's a March break. There's one in Ajax, two in Ottawa, April, going to Markville Mall and in May to Scarborough Town Center. Uh, but all of this is on available on my website.

Robert: Yeah, I was just, I'm just again, great, grateful for the opportunity. It's talking to people like you were. Right now it's there. There are also people, there's schools right now that are not able to, for afford. Classroom sets. Mm. So right now I'm even, uh, approaching, uh, some businesses and financial institutions if they're interested in, if this is something that they enjoy, they're welcome to, you know, get in touch with me and we can see if we can get a classroom set to a, a school.

Robert: And it's just, it's exciting to see, you know, kids' faces with all this type of stuff. I'm happy to just thank, thank you for [00:49:00] this outlet. 

Justin: That's awesome. No, so yeah, definitely, um, everyone, whether parents, teachers up there, check out, check out the website , and pick up a copy of the book. So thanks so much Robert for being on this show and sharing your insights into how you run your classroom economy.

Justin: You know, your. Desire and passion on how you became a teacher and, and just seeing that sparkle in your brother's eyes, you know, as he was learning learning about things and, and, uh, yeah, just all the insights you shared as well with, uh, with the audience. Um, I, I'm sure they're gonna get some value and, and, , valuable tidbits at this.

Justin: So thank you so much again. 

Robert: Thank you.