Money Is a Game: Are You Teaching Your Kids the Right Rules? | Rebecca Irey

#084.   What if everything we were taught about money was designed to keep you dependent — on debt, on social security, on a system that was never built for your family's success?

Rebecca Irey grew up watching her family lose a 3,000-acre South Dakota ranch during the Farm Aid crisis of the 1980s — not because they didn't work hard, but because they didn't know the rules of the financial game. Her father was brilliant and driven, but when things went sideways, he didn't know how to pivot. Wealthy families do. And that one difference changes everything.

Rebecca is the founder and CEO of Blue Sky Financial, a certified financial fiduciary, PhD, homeschooling mom of seven, and grandmother of six, who is on a mission to change the financial trajectory of American families — moving them away from dependence on broken systems and toward true legacy wealth and financial independence.

In this episode, Justin and Rebecca cover:

• Why the financial system is designed to create workers — and how to raise kids who think differently
• The importance of building a financial foundation first, so everything above it can be aggressive, experimental, and bold
• Why there is almost no point in life where you cannot start over — and why starting early makes it nearly impossible to fail
• How Rebecca teaches her seven children to become their own safety net, and the vision-casting technique that makes saving feel exciting at any age
• Why debt is not the enemy — and how wealthy families use it as a tool to build wealth rather than spend it
• The testing strategy that can give your kids up to two years of college credit before they ever step on a campus — debt-free
• The retirement tax time bomb hiding in your IRA — and why Roth conversions may be the most important financial move you're not making
• Why the market always comes back — but why that's cold comfort if your timing is wrong
• The story behind the name Blue Skye Financial, and why every family deserves someone in their corner when life knocks them down

Show notes and more at:

https://moneydadpodcast.com/session084

Transcript

Rebecca Irey

Justin: [00:00:00] Rebecca Irey is the founder and CEO of Blue Sky Financial, a national firm on a mission to change the financial trajectory of American families from dependence on broken systems like debt and social security to building true legacy wealth and financial independence. She's also the mother of seven, a fierce believer in the power of family finance, and is based in Austin, Texas.

Justin: Rebecca, welcome to the Money Dad podcast. 

Rebecca: So much for having me, Justin. I'm excited. 

Justin: I'm excited to have you on and chat all things about finance and families and, independence. , Before we get into all of that, I kind of wanted to travel back in time with you. You grew up on a farm, I understand.

Justin: Paint us a picture of what that looked like. What was life like as a kid? 

Rebecca: You know, I did. I grew up on a 3,000 acre ranch in South Dakota, , right on the border of North and South Dakota. I claim South Dakota 'cause the Black Hills have my soul, but, um, I could see the border. The actual border marker [00:01:00] was in my yard, interestingly.

Rebecca: , I had very little appreciation for farm life as a child, especially as a teenager. Being a farm kid is hard. Like, you know, it's just hard. Yeah. But I grew up on the back of a horse, and that, that was fun for me. I really, I really enjoyed it. I, I credit that, that life with starting me out in finance. So I, , dating myself a little bit, it was Farm Aid when I grew up, right?

Rebecca: So- Mm-hmm ... four generations of my family, my grandma and grandpa actually came over from Germany and Norway on the boat. Like, they came over on the boat- ... to this and picked this land. 

Justin: Yep. 

Rebecca: Um, but during Farm Aid, you know, I realized that my dad knew crops and cattle, and he didn't know the rules of finance.

Rebecca: So Willie Nelson was singing for the farmers, but it didn't work for us. So the summer I turned 12, I actually spent that whole summer cleaning, cleaning out my grandma's house so our neighbors could come and bid on our stuff. , And that was, rough. It was rough. And I would, I would hear the adults...

Rebecca: I grew up with the [00:02:00] adults around the table. You know, all my aunts and uncles worked the farm, and we had hired men come out and work the ranch with us, and I would listen to them as a child around the table saying, "They just don't understand. They... That check bounced, and they don't..." And I always wondered, who are they?

Rebecca: Because they don't seem very nice. Mm. I don't think I like them, whoever they are, right? Only to find out later in life that they are the banks and the people who make the financial rules that we didn't know how to play by. And if you don't know the rules to the game, you really can't, you can't win it.

Rebecca: So lesson number one in my life was, hey, you know... My, my dad was a very smart man, but, but he didn't know the rules of finance. He didn't know how to pivot when, when something went sideways, and that is something that wealthy families do know. They know how to pivot. They're not down for the count almost ever.

Rebecca: And if they are, they're back within 10 years, right? That's what [00:03:00] statistics tell us. So that was, that was my first motivation, to go I, I need to know the rules to the game. It ha- it has to be. A- 

Justin: and yeah, you... so you spoke about, , the l- first kinda lesson was understanding what those rules of the game are and, and right, how can you win a game if you don't know the rules?

Justin: And, figure out the strategies to, to use those rules and, and figure out a way to, to win the game u- using that. , Looking back, how did your parents talk about money or not talk about it? And looking back, what do you wish had been said out loud or more talked about?

Rebecca: So my dad was an entrepreneur at heart. He was a Marine. , He started trading commodities on a little tiny, tiny screen with a dot matrix printer. Mm-hmm. And he would have me enter in all of the values for pork bellies and wheat and all those things when I came from, home from school. So I, I really credit my dad with my, my love of [00:04:00] entrepreneurship.

Rebecca: Um, I will... I, you know, I, as a mom of seven, I always say that to my kids, "You can blame me for an- anything as long as you blame me for the good and the bad," right? Everything bad is my fault, but everything good is my fault too. So let's- Right ... just be clear about that one. Um, so I credit him with, with my love of entrepreneurship.

Rebecca: I also blame him for the fact that I'm totally unemployable. Like, I cannot work for another human. That's his fault too. Um, but what I wish that he would have sho- He showed me the dream. He showed me that you don't have to work for an hourly wage. Like, you don't have to live that life. But the foundational security aspects of finance, like, this is how you can engage in the financial game once you have your foundation established, right?

Rebecca: Make sure that you're safe. And, and as I have spent time in this industry, and, you know, life throws you curve balls, I, I'm telling you, it's a tricky, tricky thing. And this, y- I, I'm to an age now where I [00:05:00] can tell you that I'm, I'm living a story that I didn't write. This is not the story that I wrote. I didn't plan this.

Rebecca: This is not how I thought it was going to turn out, and I wasn't prepared for that. And I think the conversation that I wish would have happened was, "This is how you establish a financial foundation that will keep you secure so that everything over and above that, now you can be aggressive with, you can be experimental with, you can chase higher returns with, you can do all those things."

Rebecca: But you're, but n- not to hit the farm thing too hard, but don't bet the farm. 

Justin: Mm. 

Rebecca: And my dad, you know, was, he, he bet the farm. He did, more than once, and lost it more than once, right? So, and I watched him do that, and, and I watched him come back from that. , But it was hard because I never saw that, establish your financial foundation first, and don't touch that.

Rebecca: And then everything over and above [00:06:00] that, like, go, you know, to the window, man. Yeah. Run with it. 

Justin: Yeah. Go. 

Rebecca: Yeah. Right. And I got to go, but I didn't get the first part. I wish we would've done that. 

Justin: I, I love, I love that piece of advice in terms of, yeah, establishing that financial foundation. Make sure you got a baseline, , perhaps it's income or cash flows coming in, and make sure you're solid set that way, and then, you know- I don't know, balls to the walls, or just you're going for it with everything else Solidity.

Justin: Yeah, exactly. Um- 

Rebecca: Yes ... 

. 

Justin: , So you're, you know, you're a mom of seven, and, you know, obviously they gotta take the good with the bad. But how has your personal journey, you know, as a mother of seven, influenced how you approach money, legacy, and, and independence? 

Rebecca: So I was not a trust fund baby.

Rebecca: Obviously, that's not gonna surprise you. Uh, I made it through college on, like, Mountain Dew and ketchup packets, right? Or ramen and ketchup packets and, you know, you learn. Um, I really wanted better for my children than that. [00:07:00] That being said, I wasn't, I'm not a big believer in university, right? Uh, I don't think any of my kids at this point have four-year degrees.

Rebecca: Most of them are, are entrepreneurs. I'm not a big believer in you have to have a college degree. I think our parents did, but we don't. Um, I didn't get my PhD until I was in my 40s. Mm-hmm. So, you know, I, I'm, I'm a big believer in education because you love it. I homeschooled all the kids, and I wanted them to understand, um, I wanted them to understand money, and I wanted to establish...

Rebecca: So two, two things that I'll, I'll tell you. As a, as a mother, legacy is important to me. So all of my children, I, I know because I have set it up for them, all of my children and my six grandchildren now, I know they will be financially independent when they are 65. I know it for sure. Mm-hmm. Contractually, it's gonna happen, and it's protected in a trust, so they can't wreck it.

Rebecca: Ah, good. So they have it and they can't wreck it. Yay. Um, but more than [00:08:00] that, I wanted them to understand money. So we did, you know, as a homeschool family, we all did Financial Peace University. We started it when they were little kids. Um, and then the plans that I had set up for them, and I, um, I, I contributed to it monthly.

Rebecca: When they turn 18- Mm-hmm ... I sat, I sit down with all of them, I still have one that's not 18 yet, and say, "Okay, it's your turn." And, and, you know, usually it's to the tune of about $500 a month is what I ask them to put away- 

Justin: Mm-hmm ... 

Rebecca: which is a big deal for a young person. That's a lot. Um, and I always get kickback initially from them, right?

Rebecca: And I always say, "You know, you don't have a spouse, you don't have children, you don't have a home, you don't have bills. This is the time. Get used to this now because the, the, the safety nets of society are not for you, and I can't even guarantee that those safety nets will be there for you. So I want you to learn how to be your own safety net."

Rebecca: And once I cast the [00:09:00] vision of, you'd be surprised how a child when they look at $500 a month won't do it until you say, "But when you are 40." They can't see 65, really. Right. They can... It's hard. That's far away. 40 is a stretch. 

Justin: Yeah, 

Rebecca: even 40. 30 is okay. You cast that vision for them and say, "But if you do this, you will have this, and then we're gonna teach you how to leverage that.

Rebecca: Like, you're not gonna spend the money, baby, you're gonna leverage that money." They can, they can feel that, right? Mm-hmm. They can, they can buy into that vision. It fits, and it, aligns with what they're seeing on social media, right? So we ha- we are competing, like- As much as I love her, my kids will get their news from America Ferrera, right?

Justin: Right. 

Rebecca: I get my news from Russell Brand. I, like what has happened in my life? What's going on? But that is true. 

Rebecca: Right. 

Rebecca: I, I don't... Donald Trump is our president and I get my news from Russell Brand. I mean, it's a little, like, m- mind altering when you think of that. But [00:10:00] our news sources are not the same, and they're not the same for our kids anymore.

Rebecca: It is not, it's not Walter Cronkite. You're probably too young for Walter Cronkite, but- 

Rebecca: That's not- Yeah ... where we get our news anymore. So you have to, it's more about vision casting. Here's the other thing that I will say, speaking of the financial game, did you ever play the Cashflow game with your kids?

Rebecca: With your boys? Yeah, I 

Justin: love it. Yeah, I actually, I have that from- I love that game ... Barbecue Cindy. Love that game. Love it. My kid, my older one- 

Rebecca: It's- ... 

Justin: loves that game 

Rebecca: And, and it's so real. It's so real. Yeah. Like, y- altering those things, and, and really, here's what I love about it, and, and we talk about these things, right?

Rebecca: Um, is it is a game. 

Justin: Mm-hmm. 

Rebecca: Money is a game. 

Rebecca: And if you look at it like that, m- most people don't learn the mental resilience of looking at finance as a game, but the CASHFLOW game does that for us. , And we know once you start adulting, which is way overrated, by the way, blah, I don't like adulting at all.

Rebecca: [00:11:00] However, money determines everything for us, right? Where we live, what we eat, the clothes on our back, the car that we drive, our mental health, our physical health, all determined by money. I'm not saying good or bad, I'm just saying that's the reality of the modern world. So if you buy into that, it's, it's easy to forget that it's a game.

Rebecca: M- Money grows on trees, people. It's made of paper. It really is.

Rebecca: There's, , almost no point in your life where you cannot start over, and if you learn early to build that financial foundation, you almost can't screw it up. I, I'm not saying you're gonna buy islands and have gold doorknobs, and you're gonna do...

Rebecca: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. But you can have the life you engineer. If you choose to design it, you can do it, and people forget that. They forget that part. 

Justin: Yeah, it's so true. Like, I think if people, , looked at it as a game, it, it truly is a game, like, where you can s- you gotta figure out what the rules are, how to, how to best play it.

Justin: , [00:12:00] And, you know, you need assets, you need cash, cash flowing assets, whether that's businesses, whether that's investments, whether that's whatever. You gotta figure out a way to, , separate the fact that, you know, you're trading time for money. I, like, one of the things, actually the conversation I was having with my kids last night was most of the people make the mistake of trading time for money.

Justin: Or, or sorry, , their time for money. You gotta figure out a way to break that so that you don't have to do that. And, and so , it's such an important mindset to have. , So I'm curious, what, what inspired you to, you know, s- start Blue Sky Financial? How did you find your purpose in financial advocacy?

Rebecca: So I've always have, had a love for finance, always been an entrepreneur. I started in the business in 1991. I actually met my husband. We had the same, we had the same dream. We were actually in competing financial offices, if you can imagine that. Um- Oh, 

Justin: no ... 

Rebecca: and, yeah, we were. And, um, [00:13:00] I, we had gone to the same convention, and I, you know, I was, like, 21, totally arrogant.

Rebecca: You know, I thought I, I knew every- like every 21-year-old. Yeah ... actually, now that I have seven children, I know this. Um, so I gave my little speech, and I was gonna leave right as, as soon as... I wasn't gonna stay for... Who has anything better to say than me? Psh. And there's an old gentleman in the back, and he's like, "Hey, I get it.

Rebecca: I know you wanna go, but just listen to this next, just, just this next one, and then you can go." And it was my husband, and he- Oh, yeah ... he, I was like, "Oh, hello." And yeah, the rest is history. 

Justin: Yeah. That's 

Rebecca: amazing. So, so we've always been in business together. We've had multiple kind of serial entrepreneurs over the years, but financial advocacy came to me late.

Rebecca: I, I didn't start Blue Sky until 2017. Mm-hmm. 2018, actually. And here's the reason. And, and, um, I'll tell you the story of why I do Blue Sky, and [00:14:00] then I'll to- tell you the story about the name because it, it matters. Um, so I had seven children, and in 2017, my husband was the kind of guy who didn't like to go to the doctor.

Rebecca: Hmm. No one does. He just, he was just one of those guys, right? No, no one 

Justin: ever does. Yeah. 

Rebecca: Well, you know, some of us are a little more proactive. Um, he, he always said, "I don't need somebody with a white coat and a degree to charge me to tell me I need to lose 20 pounds. I already know that." Right. Fair. Right.

Rebecca: Okay. Uh, fair. He hadn't been feeling well for a while. Um, we still had six kids at home that we were homeschooling, and I, I, I insisted. I'm like, "Happy wife, happy life. Your wife is not happy. Get your butt in the car. We're going to the emergency room now. This is enough of this." 

Rebecca: Hmm. 

Rebecca: Um, after an hour in the emergency room, the doctor brought me out into the hallway, would not say this in the room.

Rebecca: He brought me into the hallway and said, "Whatever you need to do to figure out your life, do it. Your husband will never check out." 

Justin: Wow. 

Rebecca: I had [00:15:00] six kids at home waiting on their math lessons. Like, "When are you gonna get home, Mama, so you can check my math?" Like, this is my life. My business partner of all of my adult life was not going to check out at the hospital.

Justin: Wow. 

Rebecca: And I realized there's another level to this game that I don't know, because I thought I had time. I thought, I thought I had another 20 years. I wasn't even 50. Like, that's ridiculous. 

Justin: Hmm. 

Rebecca: You know, my, my youngest child was under six. It-

Rebecca: When you don't know the rules and your, and your world stops, no amount of, "It's just a game," will help you. 

Justin: Hmm. 

Rebecca: That, that doesn't... Those are just words now because everything is real now. 

Justin: Wow. 

Rebecca: Um, he did check out 18 months later. Um- Wow, 

Justin: [00:16:00] okay. Great. 

Rebecca: Somebody else's liver, but he did check out. Yeah. And, uh- Yeah

Rebecca: and now we have bonus years. We've been married for 31 years, and I, I'm grateful for every bonus year I get with him, right? , But I learned that there is another level to financial planning that is, you know, there's a certain arrog- And we know this. There's a certain arrogance to youth, right? And, and- 

Rebecca: Mm-hmm

Rebecca: and that doesn't go away just because you're 40 or you're 45 or even 50. But m- the hard, the hard lesson is the universe doesn't give you a warning shot. God in all His wisdom doesn't say, "Hey girl, next year it's gonna hit and you gotta b- gotta be ready." No, no, no, no, no. You don't get that. Mm-hmm. It just, it happens.

Rebecca: Yeah. 

Rebecca: And then you're on the floor. Yeah. And what do you... And, and this game talk, no, that's not real. J- don't even say that to me. And, and please don't say, "God doesn't give you anything unless you can handle it." Oh, please. Stop. [00:17:00] Right? 'Cause it, in that moment, none of that is real. The only thing that is real is my business partner will never check out and my babies need their math lessons checked.

Rebecca: This is ridiculous. What? So when I, when I got myself back together and I realized that I needed to do something on my own- 

Rebecca: Mm-hmm ... 

Rebecca: and I took stock and went, "You know, women live longer. We make less. We save less." 

Rebecca: Mm-hmm. 

Rebecca: This is a problem. It's a problem, and if it's not a problem for you right now, please prepare.

Rebecca: Mm. 

Rebecca: Because six out of 10 widows in this country are women. 

Rebecca: Mm. 

Rebecca: And 70% of women who are widowed after retirement are below the poverty level, and they weren't before their husband passed. 

Rebecca: Right. 

Rebecca: But they are now. Right. That's a problem. It's a problem. And I, I, it's my mission to [00:18:00] fix it. And, and it's not always the wife, but gosh dang it, when your world stops, you've got to be prepared, and you don't know what age that's gonna be.

Rebecca: You may not be old when it happens. You may be very young. 

Justin: Yeah. That, that, that is such a powerful story. Thank you for, for sharing that. And, , certainly a reflection of, yeah, in the moment life happens to you, whether you're ready to deal with it or not, and you need to, you know, one, you could, you could, I guess, you know, lie on the floor, cry, and, and just take it, or two, figure out a way, which sounds like that's, you figured out a way.

Justin: You gotta, you know, grab the bull by the horns. Uh, maybe it's this Texas thing, but you gotta grab the bull by the horns and, and you have to figure out a way to make it work and to, , come out of it stronger, hopefully stronger than ever. But that's, thank you for share, you know, thank you for sharing that story.

Justin: I, I wanted [00:19:00] to get into, a topic that, you know, we, we live in a culture where debt is, is all around us. , We're, we're drowning in debt. You know, buy now, pay later, weekly payments, biweekly payments. You know, kids graduate, a lot of kids graduate with student debt before they've earned their first real paycheck.

Justin: So I want to ask you something that, you know, every parent wants or needs to hear in that, you know, what does it take to raise a financially independent family inside the system that's designed to keep people in debt? , What are the habits that families need to take on? What are the conversations like?

Justin: What's the mindset shift that, that, you know, financially independent households need to have, need to do? 

Rebecca: So I think that Our society is designed to create workers, right? That, that, I mean, that's a, that's a [00:20:00] bold thing to say, but it's true. The education system in America is designed to create good workers.

Justin: Hmm. 

Rebecca: I don't want my children to be good workers. I mean, I want them to be good workers, but not like that. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Rebecca: So- Yeah ... keep in mind there's always more than one way to do things, right? So I, I will tell you I'm not a big believer in university, but it strikes me when you say most, most children graduate college with debt.

Rebecca: Okay, so you can, you can do your first two years of college and test out. You, you don't h- even have to attend. Like, you can start college on your degree of choice, right? So most people don't know that, but My entire bachelor's degree almost I did by testing out, right? So the first two- When you say, when you say 

Justin: testing out, when you say testing out, what, what is, what does that mean?

Rebecca: I'm sorry. I'll, I'll tell you. Yeah, yeah. So, so the first two years of college, right, are a repeat of high school. So we do high school and then we go to college, and the first [00:21:00] two years are just general. We're just doing... Which is a repeat of high s- Oh, I see. You're charging me college rates to repeat high school, right?

Rebecca: Yeah. So, so what I taught my kids, and, and when they, when they turn about 13, we start this, right? We start taking CLEP tests and DSST tests and Excelsior tests, because they're already learning that. So when they take that course in high school, then I take them in and I have them do a college credit test, so now they have college credit.

Rebecca: Hmm. So when, when my c- children graduate high school, they have two years of college credit, usually about 60 to 80 college credits my, my kids all graduate high school with, right? So now to get your bachelor's degree, if that's the dis- direction you choose to do, okay, now, now you can really pay for a lot of that with grants and Pell Grants and take advantage of financial aid and all of those things.

Rebecca: Goes a lot further, because you're not paying to do high school again, [00:22:00] right? Hmm. So- 

Justin: Interesting ... 

Rebecca: keep in mind there are so many ways to skin this cat. I hate that phrase, 'cause I skinned a cat once in high school as a biology project. It was really disgusting. I don't like that. I don't know where that came from, but whatever.

Rebecca: There's more than one way to go, more than one- Hmm ... path to take. Be creative. Like, ChatGPT is the thing. Ask ChatGPT the most creative way to pay for college without debt. Okay. Hmm. There's a mil- That's the way I did it. There's a million ways to do it without debt, right? The other thing that I'm gonna tell you is that in our world, I think cyclical, right?

Rebecca: Going back to the age of apprenticeships. Hmm. When your chi- when my child, my, when my children turned 16, 17, I started asking them, "What do you think you wanna do?" And they would say, "Well, I think I want to..." My daughter was, "I think I want to be a photographer." Okay, fine. Well, let's find a photographer that you can shadow, that you can learn from, that will just, you can do all, bring her coffee, and do all her grunt work, and help her with editing, and [00:23:00] you'd be surprised how many people are open to that for a responsible child.

Rebecca: Hmm. Like, 16, 17 years old, someone who really wants to learn, there are all kinds... And that's how they, like, if you read, if you... Have you ever read Thomas Jefferson Ed- Education? 

Justin: No, I haven't. 

Rebecca: Oliver DeMille is the, is the, um, author of that book. It's fantastic. It will, it will challenge your thinking on education, but he really talks about how education was done in, in the time of Thomas Jefferson, right?

Rebecca: So the, it's based around apprenticing- 

Justin: Mm-hmm ... 

Rebecca: around a child's interests, right? Let's just wear... I have a, a friend, one of my friends when I was, , educating my children, she would always tell, uh, tell her boys, she had two sons, and they would say, "I wanna be a cowboy." Yeah. And, and she would say, "Well, let's just wear that for a while.

Rebecca: Let's just check that out." And she would open, the door of opportunity to them so they could really check that out, right? That's important. If, if we don't want our kids to [00:24:00] work jobs, right? Yeah. And, and trade time for money, then we need to model that for them and, and buy into what they're, what they're into, right?

Rebecca: What is it that you like? Let me buy into- let's figure that out together and, and do that. I, I remember I had a child who said to me, "When I get a job." And I said, "Where did you ever hear language like that? Why would you put a j- why would you do that?" Yeah. And they're like, "Oh, I just heard my friends talking, and I thought that's what you're supposed to do, get a job."

Rebecca: I'm like, "I mean, you can, but-" 

Justin: Yeah. Yeah. 

Rebecca: They're influenced by their kids, so we n- by their friends, so we need to open different doors of opportunity for them, and that will, that will help them. And, and- Show them, right? My, my, my oldest daughter wanted a My Size Barbie when she was, like, 10. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Rebecca: It was $100.

Rebecca: [00:25:00] $100 for a Barbie doll in the '90s- 

Rebecca: Wow ... 

Rebecca: was- That's a lot ... come on now. That's- Yeah ... well, I mean, you think $100 now is not a big deal, but $100 for a Barbie doll- 

Rebecca: Mm-hmm ... 

Rebecca: that stood, like, three foot high in the mid-'90s was a big deal. 

Rebecca: Yeah. 

Rebecca: So, so I taught her to, s- she saved and she earned, and she earned, and she earned, and then she had enough money to buy it, and I said, "Okay.

Rebecca: Okay, Rachel, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna leverage your savings. So you're gonna buy your Barbie doll. I'm gonna give you a loan, and this is the interest that you're gonna pay me, and then we're gonna put your money in a money market fund, and you're gonna make just a little bit more." 

Rebecca: Mm-hmm.

Rebecca: Debt is not necessarily bad. Wealthy families never spend their money, they leverage their money. Yeah. And we need to get over ourselves when it comes to debt. So there are gurus out there. One guru that was my guru for many, many years, Financial Peace University, right? Thank you, Dave Ramsey, for that primer on financial planning.

Rebecca: I appreciate him. However, this idea [00:26:00] that debt is evil is wrong. Yeah. It is wrong. Yeah. It's, it's flat wrong. 

Justin: Yep. 

Rebecca: I get it. Wealthy families have debt. They leverage their money. They do not spend it. And until we learn to treat our money like wealthy families do, we will be the workers of this economy, and I refuse that for my, for my kids and my grand- I refuse it.

Rebecca: No, pass, no. 

Justin: Yeah. Yeah. 

Rebecca: But that means we need to play their game by their rules, and debt is a part of it as a tool. You know, my, my dad used to say, "Ride the ass, don't let the ass ride you," right? 

Justin: Interesting expression, yeah. 

Rebecca: I mean, he was a farmer. 

Justin: Right. 

Rebecca: So, but, but that's tr- and that's what it is with debt.

Rebecca: Control it. Make sure that net-net, you're in the positive. However you choose to... And there are many financial tools that can do that for you, right? Yes, have debt, and there are brilliant tools right now where you can have 0% interest on a lot of things. So you put your money m- in a money market account or a, or a structured note, or a, you know, pick your tool, right?

Rebecca: Yep. [00:27:00] 

Rebecca: And, and then you use Affirm or you use something else so that you can have what you want, because I'm not a fan of waiting until you're old and dusty to have nice things. Yeah. I want nice things right now, thank you. No, I don't want to wait until I'm as old as said guru to have nice things. Pass. I don't even want that, and I'm older than my kids.

Rebecca: Right. 

Rebecca: Use it wisely. N- n- you manage it, or it will manage you, and that's where you don't want to be. Because to go back to my original story when you said, you know, you can lay down and cry or you can do something about it, sometimes you do both. I did. 

Rebecca: Yeah. 

Rebecca: Yeah. I laid, laid down and cried for a long time.

Rebecca: Yeah. And then I went, "Well, this is not helping." "I'm gonna have to do something." Yeah. But it's both/and, right? You, you feel the stress, you breathe through it, and then you go, "Okay-" Somehow this has gotten out of control. The ass is riding me. This is not okay. I need to flip that script 

Rebecca: Mm 

Rebecca: How can I do that?

Rebecca: And you do it. Because [00:28:00] most of us, our, our children are blank slates, and God bless them, I love that for them, and as parents we have a responsibility to teach them how to paint on that canvas 

Rebecca: Mm-hmm 

Rebecca: But as the mother of adult children, I'm gonna tell you they're gonna paint their own story no matter what you teach them.

Rebecca: And, and you think at 12, 13, 14 years old that they're gonna do what you think, what you teach them to do? 

Justin: I... They're n- it's not 

Rebecca: happening? The Bible says- Oh 

Justin: no, it's, it's, 

Rebecca: it's too late for me The Bible says, "Teach a child in the way that they should go, and when they are old, they will not depart from it."

Rebecca: Well, darling, the 20s and 30s, they are not old. Right, right They are not old, and they're gonna go their own way, and they're gonna break all your rules, and they're gonna tell you, "Don't know jack." Right. 

Justin: Right. 

Rebecca: When they are old, they will not depart from it. I'm still hoping. Still hoping. 

Justin: So you're saying when they're 40?

Justin: When they're 40 they'll come around, they'll- 

Rebecca: Maybe ... they'll 

Justin: realize? Yeah. 

Rebecca: If you're lucky. If you're lucky. But I... When they're 22? No. No. 

Justin: You're right. 

Rebecca: You're 

Justin: right. They won't. You're right. No, I 

Rebecca: know, like I- So, so we do our best- 

Justin: Yeah ... 

Rebecca: but know that- Yeah ... they're gonna take your rules and [00:29:00] say, "The world is a different place than when you grew up, you old fart.

Rebecca: You don't know what you're talking about." Okay. So the deal I have with my kids when they turn 18 is everything up to this point is my fault. You're a grown man now. Everything past this point, that's on you, kitten. 

Rebecca: Mm-hmm. 

Rebecca: I'll sign off, I'll sign off on the therapy. It's everything is my fault up until now.

Rebecca: For sure. Sure. I, I'll sign it. I'll... You can have it notarized. It's all my fault. At, past this point- Yeah ... your decisions are your own. 

Rebecca: Yeah. Yeah. 

Rebecca: Because they will. They're gonna try it their own way, and, and they need to know how to take a breath and go, "Oh-" This got out of control. How can I flip that script and come back around?

Rebecca: And as parents, we become their consultants when we're invited. 

Justin: Right. 

Rebecca: And then we can say, "Okay, I, I see what you did, and I see why you did it, and, and it makes... I, I get it. I, I would have wanted that too, absolutely. This is where [00:30:00] maybe it went wrong. Here's how we can flip the script back." And then they'll listen.

Rebecca: Then they will. 

Justin: Right. And it's so important to make sure that, yeah, you foster that connection and have that relationship that, so that you can be that cons- you know, quote-unquote consultant, that advisor, where you're not necessarily... You don't have to, you're not telling them what to do, 'cause, you know, they're naturally gonna resist- Good luck with that

Justin: and do their own thing. But you, you can at least get them to think about maybe from a different perspective, and hopefully, yeah, they'll, they'll, um, they'll come around to it. That- 

Rebecca: Yeah ... 

Justin: yeah, there's so many things that you said that, , that resonate with me. , One was, I didn't even actually know, so call...

Justin: So for me, I remember when I was, you know, growing up, yeah, my f- my parents, and especially my father, he was like, "Make sure you get your education, go to university, you know, study, get good grades." And I was initially thought like that. But the more I realize and the more I've, you know, my, I've got my kids, [00:31:00] going to university is not as important to me for them, I think, as it was I've, you know, perhaps for me.

Justin: And I actually would be thrilled if they went into entrepreneurship and, you know, figured out a way to create value, um, whether it's launching businesses, helping, whatever. I mean, obviously I'll support them in whatever they do. But, but if they were entrepreneur, I think that's the way to go, especially in this day and age where, yeah, you don't wanna...

Justin: What you learn goes stale really fast. You don't need to go to school for four years, , in university to learn it, especially, and I didn't even realize you could actually get college credits as you were going through high school. So that's, that's a brilliant, uh, one there. , So I love that. And then the second thing you said was in terms of apprenticeships, where, yeah, because kids, I mean, they, you know, my, my youngest, who's six now, he changes all the time of what he wants to do.

Justin: , Right now he's, he wants to be a, um, an NHL hockey goalie, so that's, that's one. Before that it was [00:32:00] a scuba diver. Love that. You know, and, and he's like, "Yeah, I could do both, right?" I'm like, "Yeah, sure. I guess in the off-season, sure, you could be a scuba diver." Um, but- But yeah, the, the value of apprenticeships, I went through-- So when I went through university, um, I went-- I specifically picked one where they had a co-op program where you could work.

Justin: Uh, you know, you're doing four months or eight months of, um, internship, right? , I mean, mine was related to my field of study, so I guess in that way, maybe it wasn't so, you know, such a pure in-apprenticeship. But the value of having different experiences so they can figure out, "Oh, this is the ins and outs of what I'm interested in or what I thought I was interested in and what I wanna do," and they're learning it, , that's such a valuable thing to have, , and experience to go through for them.

Justin: , So, so yeah, the, the value of that's huge. And then what you said about debt in terms of, you know, all debt is not bad. I 100%, 1000% agree with you. I mean, for [00:33:00] me, I, I... I mean, so I, I have a r- you know, real estate portfolio, and you're using debt to purchase real estate, , that generates cash and income. And so for me, it's like, yeah, you- there's ways that you have to use debt.

Justin: The smart really use debt to their advantage. The wealthy use debt to their advantage to leverage that. , And whereas, yeah, if y- if you're, you know, your mindset is all debt is bad, I mean, uh, you're, you're not gonna be able to get ahead. You need to, you need to- Right ... be able to figure out a way to use it wisely.

Justin: , So I l- I love all that what you said. , , you know, in your firm, , you work with lots of, you know, hundreds, thousands of different families. What are some of the biggest, , financial mistakes that families make and, and how can they avoid them? 

Rebecca: They don't plan. Mm-hmm. That's, that's it.

Rebecca: We're afraid. We're afraid. As, as people, we're afraid of our finances. When I was pregnant [00:34:00] with my, um... I use this analogy all the time. When I was pregnant with my fi- Fourth child? Fourth, fifth? I didn't- You might lose track. Yeah ... you know, it was one of those. One of those. I know. It's over there. 

Justin: Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca: So when you have that many children, I, I gained, like, 20 pounds with each child, and I never lost it. So by the time you had five, 5 times 20 makes a 5'4" girl a very, very big girl. I was a very big girl. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Rebecca: I would not- Yeah ... step on the scale when I went to the doctor. I wouldn't do it. I'm, I'm like, "You can weigh me, but I'm getting on backwards.

Rebecca: Don't tell me." "I don't wanna know. I'm, I hate this. I hate everything about it," right? I was in a bad spot. And I had a doctor sit down with me and she said, "Look, honey, , the scale is not good or bad. It just is what it is." Mm. "What's good or bad is what you do when you leave here. Are you gonna go for a walk, or are you gonna go for ice cream?

Rebecca: That's what's good or bad. Step on the scale, fat girl." "Oh, it's not good or..." Like, no judgment- Right ... on your past. The past is the past. It's, it's nothing now. It's just [00:35:00] the past. This is just what is. It's not good or bad. And I think as families, as adults, we don't wanna look. I don't wanna, I don't wanna look at my credit card statement.

Rebecca: I don't wanna balance that. Ew, how many times did I go to Starbucks? I mean, it feels like $5, but when it's $5 every day and you look... And I love Starbucks, and I go, and I think you should go if you want to. I don't have a problem with that, but- Know your metrics, right? As entrepreneurs, know your metrics. As a family, know your metrics.

Rebecca: Know your numbers 

Rebecca: Mm-hmm 

Rebecca: Plan it. , If you fail to plan, you plan to fail, right? We don't plan. We think, "I have time for that." 

Rebecca: Hmm. "

Rebecca: I don't need to do that now. That is for someone else. I can do that when... I will do that when... I don't ha-" Okay, no. And, , as entrepreneurs, we're terrible planners.

Rebecca: We're terrible because we make money. That's what we do. . "I don't need to plan right now. I need to buy another house. I don't need to plan right now. I need to X, Y, or Z." No, you need to plan right now. [00:36:00] It's easier and cheaper if you plan right now. Roadmap your financial path forward so you know exactly where you're going, and you will get there.

Rebecca: But if you just put your head down and go, "Well, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna... And it'll be okay," no, it's not gonna be okay. The world is a different place. I still have people saying, "Well, I don't need to worry." You're... I had a 63-year-old person tell me yesterday, "I don't need to worry about it because the market always comes back.

Rebecca: I know the market, the NASDAQ is down 7% in the first quarter. I don't need to worry about that because the market always comes back." Okay. You're 63, bruh. Yes, you do. What, are you kidding me? Like, I'm so sorry, but here's the thing. It does always come back, but the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent, sir.

Rebecca: Mm-hmm. 

Rebecca: So adult up. Right. Yes, you do need to worry about it. Like, gosh dang it. "Well, the market always comes back." Yes, it does. [00:37:00] You're 63. You 

Justin: need time. 

Rebecca: No. No. Like, we l- what people don't realize about the market is, you know, the S&P January two, of 2000, 1,469. 

Rebecca: Okay. 

Rebecca: The S&P January 2013, 2013, 1,469

Rebecca: If you retired in 2000- 

Justin: Yeah ... "

Rebecca: Well, I'm just gonna stay in the market 'cause the market always comes back." Well, it did come back 14 years later. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Rebecca: Takes a while. How you feeling there, Mr. 85 years old? 

Justin: Yeah. 

Rebecca: It did come back, and it does come back, but using tools wisely. I'm surprised at how many people who are not, and I'm sure you find this, who are not financial experts say, "I don't want to use this, that, or the other tool.

Rebecca: Oh, I don't, I heard that that is bad." Oh, really? Where'd you hear that from? Oh, my goodness, are you kidding me right now? Look at all the tools. Look at all the tools. [00:38:00] They're just tools, right? Mm-hmm. A hammer can kill somebody or it can build a mansion. How are you gonna use your hammer? Mm-hmm. But you're not gonna say, "Well, I don't like hammers.

Rebecca: I'm not gonna use 

Justin: a hammer." Right. 

Rebecca: Okay? Well, that's very interesting theory, my friend. I, I'm curious to see how you're gonna build something, right? I don't care about, I'm tool agnostic. Doesn't matter to me. I want the tool that works, and, and we're not cookie cutter people. We don't need cookie cutter solutions.

Rebecca: But we don't need to, like, throw out the hammer because we heard somebody, some talking head somewhere say, "Well, that's not a good tool." You know, e- everybody says the stock market. The stock market is the greatest tool for wealth accumulation on the planet. Mm-hmm. And it is. It is. It is not the greatest tool for wealth distrib- distribution.

Rebecca: Mm. 

Rebecca: Keep that in mind. Like, different tools for different seasons. So when I started Blue Sky, I s- I started it, my, my, my middle daughter, who's my... I don't know if you have one of these, 'cause you only have [00:39:00] two, but when you have seven, I, she's, she's been in trouble since the day she was born. She's a rebel at heart.

Rebecca: Yeah. I don't know where she gets that. 

Justin: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

Rebecca: I just said bruh to a 63-year-old man. I don't know where she gets it. I don't know. 

Justin: Where, where does she get that from? I don't know. 

Rebecca: I don't know. It's a mystery. , Anyway, she, she moved out. I, I j- I did not graduate her. She moved out before she was 18. It was rough between us.

Rebecca: And, , when she moved out of my house, , I sat down with her and I said, "Julia, what color's the sky?" And she's rebellious. She's 17. She's like, "Ugh." Oh. "It's blue." I'm like, "Okay, but what color's the sky in a thunderstorm?" She's like, "Black." I'm like, "Yeah, but behind the black, what color is it?" "Blue." "But in a

Rebecca: tornado, what color is it?" "Blue. Ma, I get it, blue, okay?" 

Rebecca: Mm. 

Rebecca: I'm like, "Okay, well, what you need to know, sweetheart, is that I'm your blue sky. Regardless of the dust you kick up, regardless of how much you fail, regardless of what beautiful, magical, awful things that will happen, I'm here." 

Rebecca: Mm. "

Rebecca: Behind it all, I'm here [00:40:00] for you.

Rebecca: I'm your blue sky." And when we founded Blue Sky Financial, that's what we wanted to be for our clients. 

Rebecca: Mm. 

Rebecca: Their blue sky. Like, life will happen, and it will knock you down. Not to quote Rocky, but it will knock you down and keep you there if you let it, but it, and it will. 

Justin: Yeah. Yeah. 

Rebecca: And what you need is a team of people around to say, "I'm here.

Rebecca: I got you, and we can still get there from here. We can still get there." And that's what Blue Sky Financial does, is it's, we have a team of experts to come around people to say- We're here- Yeah ... and we're gonna get you there. 

Justin: I, I, I love that analogy of blue sky. Um, that's powerful as well.

Justin: This has been, this has been a fantastic conversation. Maybe one last thing I'll touch on if you have, if you're good with that. 

Rebecca: I do. 

Justin: Is you, you know, you talked about or you talk about, um, so let's say retirement. So let's say that, you know, that [00:41:00] 63-year-old that, that you called bruh, uh, to, , you talk about tax-free retirement as a strategy that the wealthy can use that everyday families don't know about.

Justin: What exactly does that mean? What is a ta- like, that sounds too good to be true. What ex- exactly is tax-free retirement? Why isn't everyone doing it?

Rebecca: . So tax mitigation is a thing. So first let, hear, hear me say I do not look good in orange. Please pay your taxes. Pay, pay your taxes. Please pay them. , You don't need to leave a tip. And we do. We do. , In a, in a variety of ways, right? So eas- easy way, tool agnostic way, if, if you're not thinking about Roth conversions right now, you need to.

Rebecca: If, if your advisor is not talking to you right now, today, and should have been calling you for the last two years about Roth conversions, fire them. 

Rebecca: Mm. 

Rebecca: Find an advisor that will. And if you're DIYing this thing and you're not thinking about that, fire yourself and find a good advisor. That's ridiculous.[00:42:00] 

Rebecca: One big beautiful bill. People don't realize that the highest tax rates in America was in 1941. 94% was the highest progressive federal tax rate. 94%. Ouch. 

Justin: Ouch. 

Rebecca: Right? 

Justin: Yeah. 

Rebecca: So right now we have the one big beautiful bill that says tax rates will never go up, which I'm gonna tell you is a promise written in pencil.

Rebecca: If it's not the next administration- Yeah ... the next admin- This is gonna erase that thing. Yeah. That's impossible. It's not, uh, it's my professional opinion, but it is the law right now If you want a tax-free retirement, let, let's face it, you'll never be totally tax-free because despite the American Constitution that says double taxation is not allowed, Social Security is a tax that will be taxed forever and ever.

Rebecca: Mm-hmm. And Social Se- Security will always exist, regardless of what people, what people say. It may not exist at 67 or 70. It may be 73, it may be 75, but it will always exist. 

Justin: Right. 

Rebecca: So w- there's an easy, there's an [00:43:00] easy one, right? Roth convert every dang thing. Backdoor Roth. Contribute to your IRA, contribute max, and convert everything, right?

Rebecca: Convert, because that's the only way, otherwise retired r- required minimum distributions hit you, increase your tax bracket, increase your Medicare costs, increase your generational tax burden. The, the chain reaction of nonsense that happens if you do not proactively manage your retirement taxation is a mess.

Rebecca: Now, there are a variety of tools that, that can make that happen, and, and I'm gonna encourage you, 'cause not all advisors agree on the right tools to utilize for that, right? So I have my favorite tools. I'm sure you have your favorite tools. , There are a variety t- of tools that can do it, but do it, and, and don't let anybody say, "Oh, you, you only have half a million dollars in your account?

Rebecca: You don't need to Roth convert." Really? Do you know what the lifetime tax bill on [00:44:00] $500,000 in an IRA is? 

Justin: Hmm. What? It's 

Rebecca: almost $1.5 million. Yeesh. Because, because your account continues to grow, right? Right. Your account continues to grow, and so does your tax liability. 

Justin: Hmm. 

Rebecca: Pay the, you're gonna have to pay the piper.

Rebecca: You're gonna. So pay it on your terms. Like, I'm a Texan, I'm a woman, I want control of all things. Absolutely. I will control my taxation. I will pay my fair share. I will. Yeah. I don't need to leave a tip. I don't think it's worth it, quite frankly. I will always do better things with my money than the government.

Justin: Yep, absolutely. 

Rebecca: And I don't care the administration. It doesn't matter whether I like them or don't, doesn't matter to me. They're, they're never gonna do what I will do with my own money. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Rebecca: And, and giving back, giving to my children, giving to charity, giving to my church, , whatever your passion is, the government will never do as well as you will.

Rebecca: But you have to be proactive. Roth convert. That, that, like, start there. There's- Yeah ... [00:45:00] there's a dozen other things that you can do, but gosh dang it, do that. That's, that's huge. 

Justin: , Well, , this has been a fantastic conversation.

Justin: I'm gonna have to get you on a separate episode for other, all the other questions I had for you. But where can people find you, work with you, or learn more about Blue Sky Financial? 

Rebecca: Uh, blueskyfinancial.com, B-L-U-E-S-K-Y-E financial.com. , We're on Instagram, LinkedIn, YouTube. I do not TikTok. Sorry, that's my age.

Rebecca: Eh, I can't TikTok yet. I'd someday maybe. Can't do that one. But every- Yeah ... everywhere else, um, we, yeah, just Google me. I'm everywhere. I'm very opinionated. I, I'm not everybody's cup of tea. I'm more of a shot of whiskey, but if you want somebody who will tell you straight and, and let you be right, I... My 20-year-old daughter told me this the other day, and I've started using it with my older cl- like, the guy that I call bro.

Rebecca: Yeah. 

Rebecca: This is what I told him at the end of that conversation. I said, "You know, my 20-year-old tells me this about [00:46:00] men," and she's very wise, shockingly. She said, "Mama, when a man thinks he's right, you just let him be right." And I went- ... "Okay, sister. That's..." And I told him that. I'm like, "Really?" And, and I t- I told him that story, and he's like, "I don't think I'm right."

Rebecca: I'm like, "You don't? 'Cause I have 30 years of experience, and you- ... and you're an engineer. Hmm, that says everything, doesn't it?" And but we still had a great conversation, but I had to just eventually say, "You know what? It is your money, and you have to do what you're gonna do." So, um, I would love to connect with people.

Rebecca: I, I do believe in straight talk. I believe in transparency. We're, we're, you know, listed with the BBB. We're certified financial fiduciaries, which is a, a really big deal. 

Rebecca: Yeah. 

Rebecca: Um, I wanna make a difference. I, I, the, the, the world ha- Has thrown me some curve balls, and I have, you know, I've stepped in it. And because I have, I, I [00:47:00] can help you avoid those things, and it's, it's really my...

Rebecca: I, I, I get a charge out of doing it. I love what I do. I love it. Yeah. I, I can't imagine not doing it. 

Justin: And it's so clear that you're passionate about it, and, and I think a lot of people out there... Well, I think, I think a lot of people appreciate the straight talk. Most people want, you know, want to hear it for what it is.

Justin: And, and, you know, you don't need to sugarcoat it. You don't need to dance around it. Just tell it like it is. Um, I mean, it sounds like that's, you know, that's the way you are, and that's the f- way the, the firm, your firm can, can offer help and advice for clients. So yeah, encourage everyone to... , we'll have all those links in the show notes, um, for Blue Sky Financial.

Justin: But Rebecca, I just wanted to thank you again for coming on the show and, and sharing your wisdom, sharing all the different curve balls that life has thrown you, but the way that you've figured out how to get past them and, and thrive. So, um, I, uh, appreciate your time so much on this. 

Rebecca: It was absolutely my ple- pleasure.

Rebecca: Thank you so much, Justin.