S5E7: Pilgrimage

Merriam-Websters dictionary defines ‘pilgrimage’ as a journey to a shrine or a sacred place with words such as travel, trek, journey, voyage being synonyms. In simple terms though it brings together a path, a traveller, a goal and a call to adventure. Many a discoveries await the one who responds to this call. For some - achieving the goal is significant whereas for some it’s the journey that matters. Irrespective of nature of pilgrimage, what experiences and (in)sights awaits a pilgrim? What questions do they trigger? How does it satiate one’s feeling of curiosity and wonder?

To explore this subject, here’s a conversation with Manjiri Latey, an outdoor aficionado and a wild-lifer having spent most of her life travelling and working in forests, mountains and in the plains. Through her solo pilgrimages like - El Camino de Santiago Compostela across North-Western Spain, Adi-Kailash Yatra in the Himalayas, Pancha Bhoota Sthalam in South India and through her community volunteering work in parts of Asia, Central & South America, Manjiri brings forth unique possibilities for anyone seeking meaning & fulfilment though embodied work. 

Song credits:
Film: Swades (2004); Director: Ashutosh Gowariker
Lyrics: Javed Akhtar; Music: A.R.Rahman

Views and opinions expressed in this episode of the Podcast are those of its guest. Creators of this Podcast expressly disclaim any and all liability or responsibility for any direct, indirect, incidental, consequential or other damages arising out of any individual’s use of this Podcast.

(C) Asha & Milind Agnihotri, 2022-2026

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Merriam Webster's dictionary defines pilgrimage as a journey to a shrine or a sacred place, with words such as travel, trek, journey, voyage being synonymous. In simple terms, though, it brings together a path, a traveler, a goal, and a call to adventure. Many discoveries await the one who responds to this call. For some, achieving the goal is significant. Whereas for some, it's the journey that matters. Irrespective of nature of pilgrimage, what experiences and insights awaits a pilgrim? What questions do they trigger? How does it satiate one's feeling of curiosity and wonder? To explore this subject, here is a conversation with Manjiri Latte, an outdoor aficionado and a wildlifer, having spent most of her life travelling and working in forests, mountains, and in the plains. Through her solo pilgrimages like Al Camino de Santiago Compostela across northwestern Spain, Adi Kailas Yatra in the Himalayas, Panchabhutastalam in South India, and through her community volunteering work in parts of Asia, Central and South America, Manjiri brings forth unique possibilities for anyone seeking meaning and fulfillment through embodied work.

SPEAKER_04 2:10

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Thank you so much for finding time in the midst of some hectic travel. I know uh you are um somewhere in Belgium at the moment. You've just arrived from someplace and you're probably leaving someplace in a couple of days. But I'm glad that uh you know, thanks to Zoom, thanks to internet, we are able to do this conversation across time zones, across geography. You in probably some time zone in Europe, I'm very much at home in Pune.

SPEAKER_04 2:40

Thank you at the outset for having me here. And uh, I'm glad that these are the good sides of technology that, irrespective of where one can be, we can still be connected uh through this. So um yeah, I'm at the moment in Brussels. I just finished um a conference that was a very expansive experience attending um a process in a village nearby, and uh yeah, so one day of break in Brussels, and then I continue with um another series of uh sessions.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

You know, travel uh is so uh you know essential uh component of one's life. Um I think we are on the move all the time, like it or not. Uh but we are also recording this conversation manjri at a point in time where uh in Maharashtra there is a unique annual pilgrimage that is underway right now called the Pandarpurwari, which is uh a kind of ritual which I don't know maybe goes back 700-800 years now, uh where millions of devotees undertake a long 200 plus kilometers of walk to to see and meet their beloved god Vittal. And I know Manjiri, you have done this pilgrimage. I don't know whether you've done it end-to-end or part of it, but uh I'm so excited because it is in the background of this wari, which for me it has a very, very deep and an uh you know inner significance. But yes, we are doing this uh conversation in in the background and the context of that. So maybe if you could you could tell us if if you have been a part of this wari and what does that mean to you? Wari essentially is a pilgrimage in Marathi.

SPEAKER_04 4:50

Thank you for um bringing that into the conversation because since I've been here the last fortnight or so, it is something I'm definitely missing being part of that sea of human um love and faith that just flows through our city. And uh I think we are all blessed, especially those whose villages, homes, cities come along the path of the Wari in any way whatsoever. It's a display of surrender every year that has been going on for so many generations altogether. Um, so I have walked only sections of this specific Wari, but what I have been, I think, extremely privileged to do more than just walk as a pilgrim is to uh serve the pilgrims at different places. Um, a couple of our friends own farms along the pilgrimage route, and um these groups, as you are probably aware, uh to for man management, the the pilgrimage has different committees that come together, and in Marathi we call them Dindi. Um, so different Dindis stay in different villages for the night just for ease of logistics, comfort, safety, so on and so forth. So, a couple of our friends, their farms are used by the dindis to stay on and in uh for a day or two on the way. Um, so that's where we've gone and served the pilgrims. It may be um serving food, foot massages, absolutely anything um on the way. So, more than just walking this, I have personally enjoyed interacting with the pilgrims that come from different areas of our state, uh, but for one single cause is their love um and faith in uh Vithal.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

You know, I know you have interacted with many. Uh if there is uh any memory that you hold uh uh preciously about uh any conversation uh with any one of those million plus people who are on this pilgrimage, uh if you can if you remember any of those.

SPEAKER_04 7:00

I'm sure a lot who've interacted with the pilgrims on this route may share this um these kind of dialogues, but I one thing that uniquely stands out for me is I remember because this vary starts at the beginning of monsoon in our part of the world, and that's the time that sowing or reap uh sowing of seeds need to happen in these parts for these farmers because a large section of these people who are pilgrims are farmers, and that's their livelihood, and this is the time when they have to sow seeds so that it can be reaped X number of months down the line. So, this is a very pivotal time. So remember speaking to one uh elderly gentleman saying, you know, now is the time of sowing. So, how does it work for you in the sewing period? You all are walking a month, who is doing it? He says, the one who calls us here is the one who's doing it for us back home anyway. So um, there is no question that if if Vithal, the Lord, has called us here, he is also the one making sure that the sewing, as and when it happens, will be done perfectly in the right divine timing, and we don't need to worry about being at two places at the same time. He has got that covered, and it didn't seem like he mentioned it as a very poetic dialogue, he it came from a space of earnestness in his heart. He's like, What kind of a question is this? Because there are no two ways about it. That the one who calls us here is the one that is going to be sowing or is already sowing, you know. For all you know, energetic seeds are probably already sown, the physical ones are what we are going to do when we go back there. Um, so these are instances where I realize that unlike a lot of us in a city, when these pilgrims are walking this path, they don't worry about mundane things or they don't worry about how um something will happen. They just they are walking in a sea of surrender. It is just beautiful to watch them. So, yeah, this one instance stands out for me specifically.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

No, you know, interesting. You say this uh people don't think about mundane things uh and just undertake this uh you know long pilgrimage. But a moment ago, you also said that these are simple ordinary farmers who at this point in time in the year are supposed to be sowing seeds only to reap its fruits or whatever harvest they have a couple of months to the now the you know, months down the line. I mean, that's their livelihood. And a failed crop would mean something huge for them. Uh yet they consider uh this as mundane, leaving it to the Almighty who says, You've called me, so you figure it out. And this has been this has been going on for centuries. Kind of takes me to the very idea of pilgrimage as such in in general, and I know uh you have undertaken many of those. I mean, not necessarily of the spiritual or religious nature as the Pandarpurwari that uh uh you know we just spoke of. Uh maybe that could have been your experience, but uh one distinct pilgrimage that uh you very briefly shared with me in our interaction as a preparation to this uh conversation was a thousand kilometer long journey that you undertook in Spain over a month plus on foot. The question to my mind, Manjiri, is why?

SPEAKER_04 10:34

I wish I had a definitive answer to the question why. But um frankly, you know, there are some I I think all of us realize that there are parts of our life where we can't put into words the reasons why we do something the way we do it, or why we are called to do something. It's you know, words fall short of encapsulating it into a structured uh thing, but there was just this very visceral pull to go do it. Um, I had heard of this, so it's called the El Camino de Santiago Campostela is the Spanish uh virgin or name for it, and Campostela is um a beautiful church built for Saint Santiago, uh, who is one of the individuals that was responsible for uh bringing Christianity into Europe. And whether one believes in a religious framework or not, what really attracted me to this entire walk was the fact that originally, similar to how the Pandarpur references, they are all going to a definitive ending, which is where Vithal is said to reside, and then villagers come from all different parts of the state, that means they start from their respective homes in Europe as well. Um, Campos Tela in Santiago, where that church is built, that is the final destination, and pilgrims originally would start walking from their own homes in all different quarters of Europe, and um, so you could be in Poland or you could be all the way up somewhere in Denmark, and you still had to make your way down um to uh Campostela, which is almost at the western coast of Spain. Um, and that those were long pilgrimages that people took. Um, so there was again something that called me to the fact that a lot of individuals uh who I had known who had walked it had nothing to do with Christianity per se as a religious framework, but they were just there because they wanted to experience what it is to again walk in this sea of uh surrender. I I'd heard of this pilgrimage back in 1999-2000 when I was studying Spanish in the Pune University. Um, so it was because of my teacher that um I knew there was a call to do the walk uh in Spain. So that was what had called me really.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

And whilst walking across uh a month on a thousand kilometer journey in uh land or a terrain, which is of course not one's own land or one terrain where it's not familiar. You're walking in Spain, uh, even many Spanish people would find it uh uh not so familiar. So there may be many surprises on the way, there are maybe many uh uh things that you were probably not prepared for. Um any particular instance that comes to your mind where you had to adapt. And I know adapting comes very natural to you. I know you well, uh Manjiri. Uh you you're good at that trait, but nonetheless, with somebody whom I hold kind of 9.5 on 10 on adaptation, um, had also had to struggle.

SPEAKER_04 13:57

I think all of us as a species adapt uh well, which is uh imperative to our survival anyway. But um, you know, on the Camino route, or I'm sure anyone who's walked any form of pilgrimage before knows that no two days are ever the same, even if one has um a tour operator, so to say, managing all logistics at the back end, yet you don't know how your body will respond, you don't know how stimuli around you are going to be. So every day is dynamic and shifting, and um, one needs to adapt. There are no two ways about it. But I think the adaptation also was on in little daily things as well, right? For example, um, I had chosen to walk with um uh my own backpack with all my resources on my back, not the food, of course, because there was enough and more through villages and towns that we went through, but all the clothing for different temperatures and different shoes, different attire. Because I started in the Pyrenees in France, which was um really, really cold. We had snow, so there were separate shoes and clothing and everything to the what I call the macetas in central Spain, which was 42 43 degrees Celsius, open, dry. So you had, you know, you needed your body and everything to adapt differently. So the beauty on this was no two days were the same, every day was beautifully different. Um, I but I think the biggest uh or some of the days where things had to adapt were when even how you pack your bag every day was something I realized was very pivotal to maintain uniformity. Um, for example, even if there was just limited clothing, let's say two trousers, three t-shirts, one jacket or whatever, and a um sleeping bag. Yet how you packed it every day, you think you're packing it the same way, but just how you place it in your back and your bag, your body starts feeling differently. And then when terrain keeps shifting every day, you'd wonder why is there, you know, why does my foot feel different today? Why does the back feel different? Everything is the same, and then you realize no, you packed it a few mm on this side in the bag. You know, little things like that were adding a default layer of unpredictability, if we may call it so, and and the most magnanimous form of adaptation was that not only that the terrain kept shifting, but the people you meet on the walk every day are just amazing, and I felt that was the best adaptation that I had to do every day because I had chosen to walk it solo. A lot of people come with a sibling, a friend, you know, a spouse or a partner or whoever. But there were few like me who had chosen not to come with any attachments, and that meant that we could shape shift and be with whoever we wanted to, whose walking pace was similar on a day, or when we reached the albagay in the evening, when we would sit down for a pilgrim's meal, as they called it. You would have new conversations every day. So um, I think adapting to different ethnicities, people of different languages, cultures, and yet having really meaningful conversations every day, and each one learning from the other were some of the most amazing adaptations. I was happy to keep doing every day.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

You know, they say, Manjiri, that we have experiences in life which are only because they are meant to prepare us for some experiences that are waiting for us down the line. Maybe your Espanol classes where you learned Spanish was uh in preparation for this journey because I'm sure you would have met a many strangers en route, locals, who would only know Spanish. So maybe your Spanish got polished also on the way.

SPEAKER_04 17:50

Yeah, it did get polished. Um, but again in Spain, every region speaks a different kind of Spanish, a different dialect. The minute you enter what's called Galicia, they speak more of Portuguese kind of a Spanish. So, yes, Spanish skills came in handy, no two ways about it. Um, and and I learned of so many different languages, not that I learned the language, but I learned of them. So I would have somebody walking past me speaking a language I had never heard heard before. Um, so I kind of knew okay, looking at their diction and their accent um or their body language, you know which part of the world they would largely come from. But what language is that? And then when you, you know, had a conversation with them at the next break, that was a common break, um, they would say, Oh, we are from one part of the Czech Republic where this dialect is spoken only in our region. And I was like, Wow, that's so interesting. Because you know, Melinda, I believe that language carries with it a history of the people, and unfortunately, things like English, Spanish, French have swept over the world in such a way that um it's almost as if you're sterilizing or killing the native languages, and when you kill a native language, with the language goes the history of that place as well, because language is the most beautiful carrier of something generationally, intergenerationally being carried. So the most amazing thing was just listening to people's different languages, and when you ask them what is unique to your region, they would even add that you know, this word that we have means exactly this color that we saw in the sky today. I'm like, wow! So um, you know, there are languages that have different words to describe different things, like each of us in our mother tongue. So it was it's extremely expensive the minute you meet people from different walks of life. Um, yeah, I think the one thing that connects all of us or is common is just humanity. It's just that's one common thread.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

And this common thread also took you to another uh walking journey. I don't know whether uh or it could even be termed as pilgrimage. I don't know, I leave it to you. How do you want to phrase it? Was your amazing, amazing journey across the uh Himalayas? Uh the the the the pilgrimage called the Adi Kailash pilgrimage. So can you unpack that piece of your experience for us?

SPEAKER_04 20:22

So you know there are um I think I'm sure a lot of listeners have experienced this that for each one of us, there are different things that we take as our guiding forms of divinity. For some people, it may be their religion as a whole, for some people it may be a deity, for some people it may be an emotion that guides them in life. And for me, uh Meher Baba and Shiva are two extremely important guiding lights, so to say. And um, it was for my love of Shiva that I had been meaning to actually go to Mount Kailash for the last few years, but because of the way our relationships have been sociopolitically with our friendly neighbors, China, where Mount Kailash lies, um, access to Indian passport holders had been curtailed or stopped. Um, so when I in my mind asked Shiva this question that okay, I really want to come experience you in a bodily way of you know recognizing your presence. Um, what is the next best place that I can come meet you and experience, you know, this kind of a high, if we may call it so. And Adi Kailash, which is the second most important Kailash, came to mind that you know Adi Kailash is the one that I should walk to. And the original plan was to walk from Kashi to Adi Kailash. Kashi, as a lot of people know, as Varanasi is as well in the state of Uttar Pradesh. The original idea was to walk from Kashi to Adi Kailash. Um, but because large sections of that walk were going to go through the state of Uttar Pradesh, I had to take a reality check with safety and uh you know, because again. Um, this was not a walk for me to prove anything to anybody that okay, solo woman can walk through Tar Pradesh and prove something or put it on social media. That was not the point. It was my personal journey and my own love and devotion for Shiva that I wanted to walk it. So just to take a reality check, I turned the route around and I did a trans Himalayan route. So um, thankfully, owing to my professional choices and upbringing from childhood, my interaction with the Himalayas has been um, I think, pre-inception as well, if we may say so. Um, so walking the Himalayas or doing anything in those mountains um feels like home. So I reached out to some of my really old friends all across the uh Himalayan states and said, What Shiva temples do y'all know of that y'all revert to as ancestrally old temples that you know an average tourist doesn't go to, but you know that there is some um some experiences that y'all have had. So they gave me these names. Then I sat with a map, you know, the traditional old paper map, saw what the route was, um, then chalked it out on Google Maps to see reality-wise where are the villages, where are highways being built now, so on and so forth. So, how much can I do by foot? So then I chalked out a trans-Himalayan route that started um in Kashi, of course, but I spent about five days in Kashi and then made my way to Dharamshala. And then in Dharamshala, I spent four days at the beginning at a monastery in silent retreat, and then started the physical walk that traversed from the west to the east in into Adi Kailash. Yeah, that was the walk I did last year.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

And on that walk, were you at any point in time all by yourself with nobody in front of you, nobody behind you, nobody on either sides, but just the mountains?

SPEAKER_04 24:01

Except the days that I was walking through um cluttered towns, which was inevitable. All other days, it was just nature, me, and nobody else, fresh air. So, yeah, there were many, many days on that route, and that was why I had intentionally chalked it out because it is not a laid-out pilgrimage, so to say, the route I took. It was just random dots joining each other. But as they say, there is nothing random, there was a reason the way the route flowed the way it did, because it started in Himachal Pradesh and then went through um, you know, all you know, west and east of uh Himachal Pradesh, and then I entered into um Uttaran Chalaud uh Uttarakhand, and then that's where it finished. So there were many days where sections of the walk that I chose to do had absolutely nobody or nothing, other than just elements of nature accompanying me.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

You know, we are social animals, uh Manjiri. We need somebody, we need companion, we need companionship, we need somebody else uh along to talk to. I mean, you spoke about your um you know earlier uh travers uh in Spain. But when you're all by yourself and there is nobody else to talk to, you know, the mind is a monkey, right? It doesn't sit at one place, it has to jump from one place to the other. So I'm wondering what sort of drama was going on in your head when there was absolutely nobody around, or was the screen blank inside as well?

SPEAKER_04 25:36

Frankly, um I'm actually quite a loner in my heart, uh Melinda. I am surrounded by people all the time, owing to the kind of work I have, which is with people most of the times, or people management workshops. So the large group element is inevitable, but in the core and the pits of my being, I'm quite a loner, and I absolutely enjoy just being by myself. Um, I like a hermit crab, I'd love to just go sit under a rock if I can. Um, so just being by myself is never ever uh been a question as to what to do. And in fact, I for those who've never explored this, I'd invite people to take at least a day or two's journey without any electronic gadgets, and quite contrary to what you mentioned, when we are by ourselves and we are not in our cell phones or we are not in a book or anything, thoughts tend to really iron themselves out beautifully. So, you know, when you're walking, um the the act of actually putting one foot in front of the other without cognizing about what is going to happen or you know who's going to pay the bills, or or you know, those thoughts are really they they become irrelevant or they evaporate. So clean slate in the mind in that respect, so to say, but the right meaningful thoughts actually come up because you know, I I think well, in the kind of lives we lead nowadays, there is so much stimuli coming our way through our cell phones, through our conversations, and then most of us have no free time, or we don't make that free time. The minute there's a void from one activity to the other, most people tend to reach out to their cell phone, go onto social media, and that just adds to the stimuli. And there is so much that we gather unprocessed information that's lying under the carpet that a lot of people unconsciously fear taking time off because they're thinking all these thoughts that have been under the carpet are all going to come out at me, so I'd rather not deal with it. But it actually works the other way from my personal experience, and I know many sail in the same boat as me that when you don't have additional stimuli coming your way, and you can just surrender to the elements of nature and just put one foot in front of the other and rhythmically, you know, just be in a rhythm of walking. Such a laundry service of thoughts happens. It's like thoughts get um laundered beautifully, ironed, cleaned, stacked neatly, and it it's it's beautiful. I I personally can go weeks uh without seeing other humans, which has happened in the past. Um, that I have been at certain projects out in the boonies, and I have not met any humans for multiple weeks, and it has been just so amazing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

You know, David Baum is uh a very renowned physicist, especially having done some amazing, amazing work uh for mankind in the world of quantum physics. And uh there was a series of conversations that uh Mr. Bomb had with J. Krishnamurti. Two people coming from two very very different worlds. And uh I have had the opportunity to listen to some of the conversations. I mean, fortunately they are all on the YouTube, anybody can listen in. But there's one line I don't know where he spoke or where he wrote, or was it an afterthought? But this line lingered in my mind, and it's kind of triggered from what you've just said, where I quote uh David Baum, where he says thought creates a world and says I didn't do it. So that's so rich, that's so beautiful, and I'm so happy for you, Manjiri, that you have been able to be the hermit crab that you are. Yet the hermit crab is also seeking experiences like the ones in Iceland or Guatemala or Costa Rica. What's go what's going on with this hermit, uh Manjiri? What did it end up doing in these places?

SPEAKER_04 30:05

So, this hermit crab, I think, is a hunter-gatherer of thoughts and knowledge, and experiences and emotions and connections. Yeah, it it's kind of addictive, I think, after a while, Melind. You know, I I think all of us have different kinds of addictions, and uh, for me, it is exercise and um new experiences. So I wouldn't use the word travel because it's a very blanket. We're traveling all the time in our heads, even if we're sitting at one place on a couch. So I wouldn't use travel, but um addicted to new experiences, new learnings, meeting new people. So, yeah, um, what happened with all of these places? Good question. You're making me put into words a lot of unconscious processes that happen.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

But so maybe you could you could give a metaphor, you could give a picture, you could give a song. Uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 30:55

Undoubtedly. No, I'm just seeing how to encapsulate it in words. But you know, Iceland happened to me about almost 25-30 years back, it was right after graduation, and um, I wasn't quite sure what my calling in life would be. I just lost my father, and you know, a lot of things at home um were unsure or dynamic, so to say, and uh the opportunity of doing a one-year volunteer program for community work in Iceland came up, and way back then we didn't have internet enough really to know what is this location. Google Maps probably was just about coming in, so I took a globe and I said, Okay, the opportunities come up. Where exactly is Iceland? I had a brief idea, but the other countries that I was given an option of through that volunteering company was um Germany, Brazil, and Korea. I said, I know where these places are, no, no big deal about it. But this is the deep end of the pool, I have no clue. Uh, and if I'm anyway waiting for an epiphany on what to do with life, I may as well do it in the deep end. So ISEN was what I picked, and um, for the first few months, I worked on a dairy farm in a small village, and um there I experienced as winter started coming in. I think you know what this also does, Melinda. These things we take for granted at home, we start valuing. For example, the sun. When you're born in a tropical country and you're a tropical child, you take the sun for granted that you wake up in the morning, it's gonna rise and it's gonna set. We don't even take cognizance, and the paradoxes like a land in India, we have so much concept of Surya Upasana that you pray and thank um you know sun as a god for the life it gives and things like that. But when I was in that Scandinavian country, so close to the Arctic Circle, as winter started coming in, there were two months where there was no sun because there is, I mean, the midnight sun, they say that that is how summer was when I reached there. But in winter, your body and every cell in your body is pining to see a ray of sunlight, you know, and then the sun kind of just comes at the horizon and sets right there, so you oh, that's the sun, but it's it's gone. So um Iceland just opened my world up to the fact that there is so much out there that I personally don't know that a book can never give me a movie, can never do justice to, and at that time, Iceland had 100,000 people as the total population on the island when I was when I was living there, unlike the Iceland that we see now, which is very commercial, very touristy, nobody knew nothing, there was limited transport. That was where actually on the dairy farm that for multiple days I would see nobody but the cows that I was tending to, the horses out in the snow, or the sheep that were up on the mountain, that was it, and that was the most amazing, non-judgmental company I could I could really have with me. Um, so yeah, and Iceland, once you taste blood, you want to keep going back to it. So the minute the volunteer work in Iceland finished, um, life happened, um, marriage, I did a master's, but this this internal drive to go explore new places, and that's where, because of my background in Spanish, um, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Colombia, Bolivia, all of them were where I've revisited for some projects that I did, just volunteer work on projects.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

I was kind of uh with at a very different place in my mind when you are talking about Iceland and where you had uh for days in and uh nobody around but for nature and local flora, fauna and uh animals. I think year before last we were on a three-week uh uh trip to Scandinavia. And we are DIY people, you know. We kind of say that okay, this is the time uh of the year we'll choose to travel, let's see which are the good places on the planet, find them, look up. Fortunately, you can you can research a lot today online. And uh we ended up the three-week journey in uh Norway. And uh we were staying in a youth hostel by design now. At as at my age and stage in life, uh, I shouldn't be staying in youth hostel, but we chose this entire entire uh three-week to travel and live, unlike any other travel or you know, living that we have done. So it was in this youth hostel in Oslo that uh after the breakfast, we were just kind of chilling at the reception, uh, you know, wanting to step out for the day. And we meet a young uh Norwegian lady uh who's kind of also sitting across finishing her coffee, and probably she was also waiting to uh step out. And we kind of got chatting. Now, she was probably a lady in her late 30s, uh a mother of two living at a small town called Badu Foss. I don't know how do I spell it, probably it's called B-A-R-D-U-F-O-S-S. Way up in the north in Norway. And uh she had stepped out just for being by herself. She says, I wanted to break from my family, and we were chatting. And we we we kind of started speaking about a whole lot of things and says, What brings you here? And you know, you know, you know, where are you traveling, etc. etc. And we says, Yeah, we are here, but this is the month of September, so maybe you know one of the things on our agenda at some point in time is to see Northern Lights, and maybe we'll come back again, maybe in December, January. You want to figure out um you know where we go. You know, she is she she instantly reacted. I think we were about 15-20 minutes into the conversation. I don't know whether we made friends in that, but probably we did because she said instinctively you know, you don't have to spend tons of money going way all the way up the way tourists do. Why don't you come home to my place in Bordeaux Foss in January? And all you do is you, you know, I have a three-bedroom house, I'll give you a room, all you do is open the window, sit in your bed, and there'll be northern lights all the time. So it's a different world, isn't it? And unlike that, Guatemala and Costa Rica must be a very different world either, right? I mean, can you draw the contrast?

SPEAKER_04 37:17

Yeah, but um before I travel verbally to Central and South America, I remember from the Northern Lights. I had only heard about the concept back then when I had traveled, there was no social media or YouTube to see what Northern Lights looked like. They were just photographs I had seen on postcards before. Yes, and I remember the one day I was walking, you know, and that time we had those Walkmans with the physical tape recorder tape put put in it. So I that was the time that I had that Walkman with my ears, you know, with that Walkman thing. And I the shortcut from one space to the other where I was living in winter went through a cemetery, and it was a really, you know, well-traversed cemetery. People regularly walk through it, and I had no qualms about it either. I used to just walk through it, and that day I'd plugged in my Walkman, and there was this beautiful um, you know, Hindustani classical raga going on, and then I look up and I see something happening in the sky, and that's the time I'm walking through that cemetery, and for a moment I was like, What is happening? Up it didn't even cross my mind, and nobody conversation had even spoken. Then now, you know, we're coming into the northern light period, and I was for a moment so spooked out that I quickly ran across the cemetery wondering if I had to do something with the cemetery and this raga going in the background. And as I ran home and met the host family that I was staying with, I was something was happening in the sky. They had a laugh, they had they laughed their heads up. They're like Najiri, that's called Aurora Borealis, that's Northern Lights, and the first time you see it, you're supposed to stand under it and pray. And I was like, Oh my god, let me go back out, miss out the praying opportunities. But yeah, Northern Lights is a phenomenon to witness anybody going up there. Um, but to answer your question now, uh, anything in Central and South America, I think a lot of people like you know how we generalize that India is one, that a lot of foreigners may meet one Indian and say, therefore, is equal to all Indians. We uh, you know, we meet people who generalize that all Spanish-speaking countries in Central and South America will be very, very same, but quite quite the opposite of it. Every country has had its own history, its own colonial past, its own colonial traumas to the wealth of its uh indigenous communities. So it's beautiful, and even in a country as small as Guatemala, every valley had something different uh to add, but one commonality that I experienced all through both Central and South America. So uh, in fact, I was in Guatemala when the pandemic broke out, and how humanity helped with what was happening, it was quite heartwarming. But um Guatemala traveled to El Salvador and um then in South America towards Bolivia and these places. One commonality I found was humans are the same everywhere in terms of core emotions, so everybody comes forth to help, everybody is very genuine, and uh you have faith that you will be taken care of. So that was definitely one commonality, but food, culture, even language differences were definitively stuck all through Central and South America.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

You've traveled many a places, uh Manjari, not just in India, in different parts of the world. And I know your profession is also around creating, curating experiences uh in nature, as wild as it gets for uh your clients, your customers, your friends, uh uh be it uh the Nasaimara or be it uh the travel across uh the Andes or could be Pyrenees, could be um good old Taroba uh for tigers. What's that calling for you? And you've made a profession out of it.

SPEAKER_04 41:17

So my professional choices have organically developed or blossomed, if I use that analogy really. Um so originally I started with um wanting to do more of outdoor education, but back in the day uh there were very few women who were working up in the outdoors as a full-time profession, and those of us who really wanted to were swimming against the tide to put it very lightly, uh, because a lot of our dominant ego forces uh made did everything in the capacity to make sure women don't come into a male-dominated space. Um, so that was a journey in itself. However, um, I realized that every time I was going outdoors or people were going outdoors, nobody came back the same. Even if it was just a 15-minute walk in a forest, something shifted and changed, and a person came back. So, um, how professionally it started weaving in was I also work with a science called neurolinguistic programming or NLP, which is a behavioral science but more practical and fast acting than a lot of classical approaches in therapeutic work. So I realized if the human element is so um inseparable, the minute we say wild, the human is affecting all wild places in the planet. So, in fact, an anthropologist realized that there are no anthropological voids anywhere. So there every part and patch of the planet is covered with humans. So humans are an integral part when we say we're going into the wild or going into nature, human has an impact. So, how can we have a more mentally, spiritually happy, aligned human, interact with nature and both you know benefit each other through that interaction was the larger idea, and that's where Earthwise as a company was birthed. Uh, went on to do a master's in outdoor education, did a lot of uh learnings within neurolinguistic programming, and then then organically, thanks to all this travel bug that that exists or doing um work with different communities, different shamanic and indigenous practices started getting woven into uh the work. And frankly, Melind, you know, every time I'm designing or curating a workshop, I actually don't do anything, I just surrender and I say, Okay, something needs to come through. There's a birthing that is happening, what needs to be put in, and a location, a content. Everything just falls into place itself, and I'm the mere medium and happy to be so, and it just keeps evolving.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

You know, Manjiri. I am asking myself that here is a beautiful, beautiful conversation that I'm having with you and enjoying every moment of it. But there is a song also playing at the back of my mind, which kind of is resonating with just about everything that you have just said or everything that you have said in this conversation. And I'm wondering if I can play that song for you.

SPEAKER_04 44:19

Please.

SPEAKER_00 44:21

So here it goes. Manjiri, if the pilgrim in you has just listened to this song, what would it say to herself? And what would it what would it say to somebody like me?

SPEAKER_04 46:41

You know, in Spanish, the greeting we all had when you're on the El Camino de Santiago is called Buen Camino, which means have a good pilgrimage. And you wish each other by saying hey Buen Camino every day. And I think whether one is walking a pilgrimage or not, even if you are in a nine to five job on a desk, we're all having some pilgrimage every day through our work, through the clients, or whatever. So I think the song is an epitome of surrender and duty that exists in all forms around us, man, nature, whatever. That every person you meet is going to bring a fresh whiff of air and some new learnings. And just to keep going, going with it and not to cognize, doubt, question, plan, just go with the flow where the wind carries. Usually, if we surrender, it never carries us to the wrong place ever. The right people, the right places, the right learnings, right opportunities. And even in the most challenging circumstances, there is a reason why it unfolds the way it does. Because you never come out being the same. Something will change for the good in you. So yeah. Yuichala Chalarahi is, I think, the motto for life, or should be the motto for life for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

Manjiri. I'm looking forward to a pilgrimage or a walk with you. Wherever, whenever, if it's possible. Of course, I have to do a lot of preparation to get my body ready for that, which I know is a is a work of a couple of months, but I envisage uh at this point in time walking with you on a day where non-stop you and I are talking. Because I know you and I go back many years. We are friends, we are uh family both. Uh I mean your husband uh Indrajeet is a is a cousin, uh a distant cousin, but yeah, we are good friends as well. I I I imagine a walk where for a day we have we talk non-stop, and then for the next day we don't utter a word, yet we are talking. Uh that's where you have left me at the end of this conversation. An invitation to walk with you. Uh just feel each other's presence and uh let the path take us where it is meant to. And uh as they say, this is a sankalpa I am doing and uh also samarpan, I am doing to this sankalpa that God willing if it comes true. Manjiri, you have left me at a very, very beautiful place after this amazing conversation. I can't put it in words, uh, but yes, a needle has shifted for me somewhere to a place which uh points to silence. Thank you very much. I'm wondering where this conversation has left you.

SPEAKER_04 50:11

Thank you, Melin, for um this opportunity of sharing this pilgrimage of life. And um if at the end of this I think even if one person gets out of home and uh walks even five minutes, I think it would be a meaningful time spent together having this um conversation, and uh yeah, it's left me feeling calm, whole, complete um, of sharing my little interaction with humanity in different parts of the world.

SPEAKER_00 50:54

Manjiri, you enjoy the rest of the day. I know you have a uh walking tour of Brussels in in a couple of hours. So you enjoy that, enjoy your rest of the stay in Europe. Uh be safe and look forward to meeting you whenever you are back home.

SPEAKER_04 51:10

Thank you so much, and you have a wonderful day as well. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 51:15

Thank you for your time today, my dear listeners. This is your host, Millin Agni Hutri, signing off. Goodbye, take care and stay safe. This podcast is for general information purposes only and should not be considered as a piece of any professional advice. Views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of its guest. Creators of this podcast expressly disclaim any and all liability or responsibility for any direct or indirect consequential or other damages arising out of any individual's use of this podcast. For feedback and suggestions, please write to wingsindia seventy-five at gmail.com. Thank you.