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Hey everyone, it’s Eugene

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And welcome to another edition of 
Forensics Talks.

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This is going to be episode 86.

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And my guest today is Roberto King.

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So, Dr. Roberto King, he's the vice president of
product at Foster and Freeman in the U.K.,

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overseeing the company's product
innovation and development portfolio.

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Previously, he was the chief technology
officer, and that's where I first met him.

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Roberto gained a first-class honors degree

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in chemistry and sports science
from Loughborough University in 2005,

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and he completed his PhD in chemistry
four years later at the same institution.

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He's a versatile inorganic chemist
with experience in the application

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of chemistry within the forensic arena,
and his background involves

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the development of novel
fingerprint enhancing agents for use

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on troublesome substrates,
as well as investigation and unique

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methodologies for evidence recovery
from document-based evidence.

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His current research interests
involve fingermarks, body fluids,

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question, document examination, trace
evidence and contact transfer.

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And I'm sure we're going to be talking
about some of these topics for sure.

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And he's published a whole bunch
of papers, more than 25 research papers,

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three book chapters.

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And he's appeared on numerous television
broadcasts, he's lectured,

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and he's been even a presenter

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at the Forensic Photography Symposium
that I held in January.

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And he did a talk on Visualizing Blood.

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And I remember
it was actually quite a technical talk

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and really great information
for those of you that were there.

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Now, we've had

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some past discussions on 3-D document
analysis, both Roberto and I

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and some of his team,

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and I really think

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it's an interesting area and so when
I saw recently that a paper came out,

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I thought this would be
a great opportunity to talk about

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some of the work that he was doing
and maybe where he's going in this area.

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So, what I'm going to do here
is I'm going to bring Roberto in.

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There is Heidi Rivera. Hi. How are you doing?

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Good, thanks.

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Thanks, you.

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Appreciate it. Well,
thank you for being here.

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And thank you again for talking
at the Forensic Photography symposium.

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It seems like it seems like a long time
ago, actually, but it wasn't really.

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Yeah.
Yeah. Time flies. And you're having fun.

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Well,
I usually start guests on their background

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because I'm often curious
about how people got to where they were.

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If I.

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If we win the clock back
before Roberto was in university,

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he was trying to figure out
what he was trying to do.

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Were you one of those techie kids or.
We are.

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No, not at all. In fact,
quite the opposite.

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Maya, my primary focus
when I was kind of going through

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the last years of school here
was Spore.

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I was kind of mad on Spore.

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Anything that would involve getting out
and I'm being competitive.

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That was kind of where my
where my interest lay.

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And I was kind of I was naturally kind of,

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I guess, interested in science,

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but more so from a from an application

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perspective, rather than understanding
the theory behind it all. And

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the in the UK Loughborough University is,

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you know, known for being world
leading for as a sport institution.

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And you know, they excel in in

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in various aspects of science
and engineering and I.T.

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But sports science is really where,

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where they're kind
of known across the world.

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And so, for me, it was

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I wanted to do sport science
and I wanted to Loughborough University

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that kind of

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developed a little bit into me
taking on a joint on this program

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and with chemistry as kind of

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the other discipline.

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I won't bore you with the details
as to how that how that came about.

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But, but it did.

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And my, my, my kind of my primary

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kind of ambition was to get into
into the university, start studying both.

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And then if I wanted to make the transfer
directly to sports science,

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then I would have done so.
But I wanted to get my options open

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and then I kind of got into the
after the first semester.

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And the first semester of university
is always difficult, right?

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It's a steep learning curve.

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You're into the big, wide world, right?

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And I ended up really enjoying day,
the chemistry that was being taught.

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And I think for me, the fundamental

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difference between learning chemistry
or science at school

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and learning at university was the way
that it was being taught to me.

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And I learned a lot during those few years
and it's something that I

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still to this day I'm really passionate
about in terms of outreach, engagement,

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promoting science,
getting people interested at a young age

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is something that I do so regularly,
I guess well, as regularly as possible.

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Go to sort of local schools
outreach events and try and just talk

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a little bit about the fundamentals,
tools of science and how they all apply.

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But anyway, I digress a little bit.

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But yeah, I kind of had a bit of a
I developed a bit of a spot for chemistry,

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and I turned out to be relatively
good at it, I guess,

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and I

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enjoyed the practical side of things
and got to the end of the three years.

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I did the joint honors, and I did
did pretty good in my degree

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and there was an opportunity for a
for a STUDENTSHIP And of course I was

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kind of like many in my situation,
you know, come to graduation.

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Yeah. What am I going to do?

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I don't really know what I want to do, but
everyone around me was saying, the more,

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the more qualifications you can get,
the better it sounds you invested.

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So actually, opportunity
came around in organic chemistry.

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Okay.

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You know, I enjoy an organic chemistry.

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Let's have a go at that.

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So, I then started a PhD in organic
chemistry.

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My, my remit for that was actually

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to explore some applications

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of some main group chemistry,

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and it had nothing to do
with forensic science at all. And

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we were sort of

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working on a project,
actually, looking at developing a material

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that could detect ammonia.

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And one of the interesting properties
with this particular

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material was that it was actually
a superconductor at low temperature

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and it formed these really quite intricate

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molecular wires of two molecules.

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So, for nitrogen and our idea
after the sort of ammonia sensor project

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didn't really work out was to, well,
what about if we can look at

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incorporating these molecular wires
into something inert

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and you're effectively
you're creating these insulating

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molecular wires and the idea with that
or the application drive at the time

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was kind of the miniaturization
of electronic devices, right?

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And so, we started doing that
and we had some really good success.

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But this is where I fell into forensics

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pretty much by accident
was the material that we were using

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is deployed

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as a as a as a vapor
gossamer under a vacuum atmosphere.

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And we were finding that
we were developing

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fingerprints on all of our glassware
that we've been using.

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And it was actually in the first
few instances, it was more of an annoyance

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because we could not see inside
that inside the reaction vessel.

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But we ended up we ended up
kind of just digging into the literature

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because, you know,
this was about 2006 and 2006.

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We were that kind of thinking, well,

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surely no one's interested
in fingerprint processes like fingerprints

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been used for hundreds of years,
and why would there be an interest?

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But there was more
and more being published,

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and I remember seeing quite
an intricate paper that was talking about

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ACM analysis of Develop Fingermarks,
and it was in a high-profile journal.

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And so actually there's maybe more to this
and it was

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then really didn't really have much
of an experience in forensic science.

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It wasn't the CSI

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Miami, CSI Vegas thing, but it is now.

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It was you know; it was so it was
it was kind of just coming into the saw

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TV realms and
and so, it was a steep learning curve.

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We engaged with people at the UK
home Office

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people
and the sort of UK defense laboratory.

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And we realized that we had something
actually, that could

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potentially be quite powerful.

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And so, the next
however, many years to where we are now,

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kind of my journey
developed from researching

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what was fundamental chemistry
to applying that

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I guess coincidental observation
to a forensic challenge.

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And that then moved on to me
kind of getting a real passion for that

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and wanting to make a difference.
And I think that that's key.

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It's yes, I'm really keen on engaging
and promoting

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and talking about all things
kind of science or forensic science,

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but I'm also keen on what we do
in terms of our research

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and now fostering
premium product development

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and making a difference in the real world.

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And I think that that's why I ultimately
moved from the academic environment

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where I was absolutely enjoying

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researching and developing
research and working and developing people

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that were working in my research team
as I as I grew through

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through the ranks a little bit.

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But I wanted to see that transition.

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And that's often where a lot of these
kind of great ideas kind of fall over.

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Is that kind of valley of death
between right idea?

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We can prove the concept,

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but what about actually productize
and getting it used in anger? So.

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So yeah, in a nutshell
that's a little bit about my background.

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Yeah.

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I think

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one thing that strikes me about you
and I'm the same way, is that you're

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not a one trick pony and that you have a
diverse interests in many different areas.

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And I think I think that's always helpful
when a person is a generalist

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shouldn't say that, but you're actually
specialized in many areas.

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But you know, you borrow from one place
and you bring something.

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That's one another.

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I would say, yeah, my passion really

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where my heart is, is in fingerprints.

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I think that largely
because that's where it all started.

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But there is so much with forensics
where you're absolutely well, you borrow

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from one discipline

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that might be on the fringes
of what we would call forensic science.

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And you adapt it
and you see opportunity.

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And it's difficult sometimes to see

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to see how potentially
something quite abstract

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can be kind of molded and formed, to have

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real world application
in the discipline that we work.

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And so, yeah, it's every day
is, is different

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and there are different challenges,
whether it be fingerprints,

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whether it would be question
documents, whether it be crime scene

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and you know,

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I guess the state of the
the forensic landscape is changing.

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A lot has started to change
and it certainly will

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accelerate apace
with the introduction of cyber

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cyberterrorism, cyber threat,
digital forensics.

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These are areas
that are exploding at pace now.

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And, you know, there are you know, that's
outside of my immediate comfort zone,

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but it's certainly something
I've got an interest in.

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So again, keen to see how
maybe there are some synergies there.

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Yeah.

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It was your introduction
to Foster and Freeman, though,

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was that while you were in school
or was right after you graduated?

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No, no.

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I mean, I was aware of Foster Freeman
whilst I was doing my stay.

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We actually worked with them
to some degree

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and looking at trying to be productized

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the techniques that we were working on.

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But it was one of
those situations where the,

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the, the process was, was

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being used operationally by UK
ministry of Defense.

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And so, it was something that needed
to actually at that moment in time

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not develop any further
beyond that operational capacity.

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And so that was my introduction
to Foster and Freeman, and then its kind of

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came back around full circle.

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We ended up developing the product
a few years ago, now,

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and that's the other product that we spoke

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briefly about before we came on air.

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But yeah, I mean, that's that was
my introduction to Foster and Freeman.

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And I think once you
when you start digging into the physical

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forensic sciences and forensic technology
and forensic technology manufacturers

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and suppliers, then Foster Freeman
and one of those companies,

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one of those organization
that have presence.

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And for me it was the natural

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kind of progression in my career anyway,
and it was the right time to do so.

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So, what position did you begin with
in Foster Freeman?

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What was your role?

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So, I started as an R&D application
specialist,

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research and development application
specialist and

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it's quite funny because I remember
having some early discussions

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when I when I started at Foster
Freeman, again, big step

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into the big wide world,
you know, in the academic level anymore.

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You're in the sort of,
I guess the commercial industrial bubble

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and you know, it was
what was my remit at that time?

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Well, actually we were quite a
we were a relatively small organization.

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When I joined, I think there were about 80
something people in the business

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just full and perspective.

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We're about 160 now in those nine years.

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So, we've developed pretty, pretty well

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and there wasn't.

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We had a couple of chemists,
we had a couple of physicists.

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Everything that we do, Foster Freeman is,

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is, was and is done in-house.

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We don't outsource stuff.

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We have our own research
and development department

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and that's where I was embedded within
and we had access to a chemistry lab

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and that basically became my kind of lab,
my little chamber.

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And I just tinker in there
and I was working on fingerprint stuff.

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And interestingly, at the time,
as I mentioned, a few moments ago,

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always it's always important
to keep an eye on the landscape

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and understand
what challenges are coming down the track.

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At the time.

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For in the UK, we were

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we were due to be moving over
to polymer currency, which

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I know in Canada you guys have had polymer
currency for a number of years.

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And one of the biggest challenges
that we had or the UK

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police force is have
the forensic force teams have was

00;14;39;15 - 00;14;43;24
how do we develop
fingerprints on this new currency

00;14;44;17 - 00;14;49;12
because we've kind of
honed our processes for the paper

00;14;49;12 - 00;14;51;18
based materials that we've had for years

00;14;51;18 - 00;14;53;14
and now we're having this polymer
currency.

00;14;53;14 - 00;14;54;00
What do we do?

00;14;54;00 - 00;14;57;24
Well, yes, you can look to the likes
of Canada and Australia who are

00;14;58;02 - 00;15;02;26
I guess they were world leaders
in putting that technology in place,

00;15;02;26 - 00;15;07;08
put in polymer currency, in circulation,
but also developing the

00;15;07;18 - 00;15;11;03
the infrastructure behind it
from not only from the bank

00;15;11;03 - 00;15;13;22
manufacturers
and all of their technology, their ATMs,

00;15;13;22 - 00;15;17;07
but also, the policing processes and
and looking at that.

00;15;17;18 - 00;15;20;08
But the difference in the UK scenario
was that

00;15;20;08 - 00;15;23;13
we were using an entirely different type
of polymer material.

00;15;23;23 - 00;15;26;14
So, the base material
was completely different, which meant that

00;15;26;14 - 00;15;30;20
the coatings in the inks and the pigments
and everything else was all entirely new.

00;15;30;20 - 00;15;33;01
So, it was a really steep learning curve.

00;15;33;01 - 00;15;37;12
So, for me I saw that as a really good
opportunity to say, Well, okay,

00;15;37;24 - 00;15;41;05
we've got something
that's come in in the next year or so.

00;15;41;26 - 00;15;44;18
We know that we need to have
a better understanding

00;15;44;18 - 00;15;47;18
of what fingerprint processes we can use.

00;15;48;00 - 00;15;49;21
That was question document stuff as well.

00;15;49;21 - 00;15;53;28
That we also got involved with were
the optical properties of these things.

00;15;54;18 - 00;15;57;18
But actually, what are the challenges there
with developing

00;15;57;18 - 00;16;01;21
fingerprints on banknotes,
also, on polymer bank notes?

00;16;01;21 - 00;16;06;14
And we then developed
actually, a range of two independent

00;16;06;21 - 00;16;08;04
fingerprint powders

00;16;08;04 - 00;16;11;03
that have unique properties
where they fluoresce in the infrared part

00;16;11;03 - 00;16;11;23
of the spectrum.

00;16;11;23 - 00;16;15;10
And the benefit there is that you don't
have any background interference.

00;16;15;10 - 00;16;18;25
And that's one of the biggest challenges
that you have when trying to get good

00;16;18;25 - 00;16;23;00
rich detail from currency
that has these really intricate

00;16;23;00 - 00;16;24;01
patterns in the background.

00;16;24;01 - 00;16;26;16
You have fluorescent security features.

00;16;26;16 - 00;16;28;24
So that was something that I got
my teeth into straight away.

00;16;29;23 - 00;16;31;08
And yes, I really enjoyed that.

00;16;31;08 - 00;16;34;11
I got to work quite closely
with the Bank of England

00;16;34;11 - 00;16;38;04
and got access to some of these notes
before they even went into circulation.

00;16;38;04 - 00;16;39;01
So that was really cool,

00;16;39;01 - 00;16;42;00
you know, coming out of the academic
environment straight into that.

00;16;43;06 - 00;16;46;03
But yeah, I was an R&D application
specialist and I was working on

00;16;46;03 - 00;16;52;10
pretty much any kind of bits of research
that needed to be done to help support

00;16;52;11 - 00;16;56;01
or bring a product through from
it might have been blue sky

00;16;56;04 - 00;16;59;23
kind of concepts
or it might have just been evolutionary

00;17;00;26 - 00;17;04;11
prioritization, but they were the kind
of projects that I was working on.

00;17;05;00 - 00;17;09;20
Well, see, I mean, you were a CTO
and then you moved into your current role,

00;17;09;20 - 00;17;10;21
which was product.

00;17;10;21 - 00;17;14;14
So, which, which I can see
a lot of relationship ideas and course

00;17;14;14 - 00;17;15;09
overlap there.

00;17;15;09 - 00;17;19;15
So as far as your current role right now,
how deep are you able to get into each

00;17;19;15 - 00;17;20;15
of the different products?

00;17;20;15 - 00;17;23;19
I mean, is it more like sort of driving it
from a high level or like

00;17;23;20 - 00;17;25;01
how do you get it?

00;17;25;01 - 00;17;26;01
It's one of those

00;17;26;01 - 00;17;30;02
where you'd love to be able to be really,
really close to absolutely everything.

00;17;30;19 - 00;17;34;07
But as always is
is having the bandwidth to do that?

00;17;34;17 - 00;17;35;25
I think so.

00;17;35;25 - 00;17;39;26
So, for me,
I kind of sit above that and try and I'm

00;17;39;26 - 00;17;42;26
try and drive it in
the right direction, but that

00;17;43;25 - 00;17;44;17
that requires

00;17;44;17 - 00;17;47;17
kind of having an understanding of

00;17;48;11 - 00;17;49;25
existing product

00;17;49;25 - 00;17;53;07
roadmap, product
portfolio, understanding what

00;17;53;29 - 00;17;56;10
emerging technologies in other areas

00;17;56;10 - 00;17;59;23
may enable us to do certain things
within our sphere

00;18;00;19 - 00;18;03;16
enables us to get really close
and have really good relationships

00;18;03;16 - 00;18;06;25
with end users
to understand what their challenges are.

00;18;06;26 - 00;18;08;23
It requires us to understand

00;18;08;23 - 00;18;12;03
regulatory changes that might be happening
in certain jurisdictions.

00;18;12;15 - 00;18;16;12
So, you know, the introduction of things
like ISO 1702, five or 17,

00;18;16;13 - 00;18;19;28
that's why that means that we need
to change the way that we develop product

00;18;19;28 - 00;18;23;10
because there's going to be a need
from the end users to

00;18;24;04 - 00;18;27;09
to be able to do things in a much

00;18;27;09 - 00;18;30;12
more controlled manner
and a reliable and repeatable manner,

00;18;31;04 - 00;18;35;01
but also involves is keep an eye
on the research that's going on

00;18;35;01 - 00;18;39;14
and seeing what other people are doing
because quite often the trends in certain

00;18;40;02 - 00;18;44;00
certain sectors can help you understand
where some of the challenges are,

00;18;44;00 - 00;18;48;00
because quite often the research has been
done is being funded.

00;18;48;10 - 00;18;49;27
And the reason the funding is there is

00;18;49;27 - 00;18;51;19
because there's a challenge
that needs to be solved.

00;18;51;19 - 00;18;55;27
So, I try and stay as close as possible
to things.

00;18;55;27 - 00;19;00;05
I mean, generally speaking,
we will develop as a as a as a company.

00;19;00;05 - 00;19;02;03
We'll probably launch
a couple of products a year.

00;19;03;14 - 00;19;06;08
The pandemic was a really

00;19;06;08 - 00;19;09;27
interesting time,
not obviously for everyone, but for us.

00;19;09;27 - 00;19;14;26
We kind of we were when we developed
products, we're not necessarily

00;19;14;26 - 00;19;17;27
just developing one product
and then we move on to another where

00;19;18;08 - 00;19;21;22
we're sort of code co-developing
and they'll be at different stages.

00;19;21;22 - 00;19;24;26
Now, when the pandemic came through,
we were we had about three or four

00;19;24;26 - 00;19;28;03
projects
on the on the staff on the agenda.

00;19;28;03 - 00;19;32;26
And our focus really during
that pandemic was to get those finished.

00;19;33;10 - 00;19;37;16
And so, we launched three or four products
in a relatively short space of time.

00;19;37;16 - 00;19;41;07
But generally speaking, we will try
and launch once two products a year.

00;19;41;07 - 00;19;46;08
So that means that can be a lot closer
to them, can kind of support them

00;19;46;11 - 00;19;50;07
in a bit more of an intimate way,
if you will,

00;19;50;16 - 00;19;54;14
and then work with ensuring
because the job isn't just about

00;19;55;00 - 00;19;58;07
having the ideas, developing the products,
launching it

00;19;58;15 - 00;20;02;13
and then starting the next, it's
also, about support is in some respects

00;20;02;13 - 00;20;06;07
it's more important to support
that introduction into the marketplace.

00;20;06;26 - 00;20;11;15
And so really my transition from CTO,
where I was overseeing all of the research

00;20;11;24 - 00;20;15;07
and understanding the way
that that research could funnel into new

00;20;15;07 - 00;20;16;04
product development,

00;20;17;20 - 00;20;19;27
that in some respects that

00;20;19;27 - 00;20;24;05
the work that you do today,
you see the benefits of that

00;20;24;15 - 00;20;27;27
three, four or five years down the line
moving into the role.

00;20;28;03 - 00;20;31;16
And at the minute
it's trying to disseminate that

00;20;31;24 - 00;20;34;24
knowledge, the power
of some of the new technologies

00;20;35;20 - 00;20;38;20
with the end users and the end user

00;20;39;06 - 00;20;42;07
isn't always the person
that's using the product.

00;20;42;07 - 00;20;45;23
It's sometimes the people that are
in the procurement agencies that need

00;20;45;23 - 00;20;48;22
to understand what the business case
is for a particular technology

00;20;48;22 - 00;20;49;25
that's going to save me time.

00;20;49;25 - 00;20;53;15
Is it going to give me high
reproducibility?

00;20;53;15 - 00;20;55;17
Is it going to be more reliable,
all those kinds of things.

00;20;55;17 - 00;20;57;26
So, it's trying to it's trying to work
as closely as possible

00;20;57;26 - 00;21;01;18
to have this kind of customer centric
approach to everything that we do.

00;21;01;18 - 00;21;03;08
And, you know, that's really important.

00;21;03;08 - 00;21;06;28
And being connected
on, on, on teams, on Zoom,

00;21;06;28 - 00;21;09;28
all these kind of things
that the pandemic brought with it

00;21;10;14 - 00;21;11;19
has enabled us to

00;21;11;19 - 00;21;14;28
to have these conversations
and have these dialogs a lot more readily.

00;21;16;15 - 00;21;19;11
Yeah, the transfer of information
during that time has been incredible.

00;21;19;11 - 00;21;23;28
And I yeah, I mean, for me, the
I just before the pandemic,

00;21;23;28 - 00;21;27;00
I was sort of already transitioning
into doing online training and such.

00;21;27;00 - 00;21;29;15
So, when it hit it was incredible.

00;21;29;15 - 00;21;32;15
Like the response, I think June of 2020,

00;21;32;16 - 00;21;34;12
you could have had a course on basket
weaving.

00;21;34;12 - 00;21;37;20
Everyone was on board,
people were buying online courses,

00;21;37;20 - 00;21;39;18
there were budgets for training
and everything else.

00;21;39;18 - 00;21;45;17
So, I think yesterday when the
we sort of went into lockdown,

00;21;46;08 - 00;21;50;23
we ended up
we were the first kind of organization

00;21;50;23 - 00;21;55;06
within our particular market sector
to try our hands at webinars.

00;21;55;06 - 00;21;57;03
And it was actually something that

00;21;57;03 - 00;22;00;05
we'd wanted to do for a number of years,
but it was kind of

00;22;00;15 - 00;22;03;17
not sure that will really take on a
maybe it well, maybe it won't.

00;22;04;02 - 00;22;06;19
But then we were forced into it
because at the end of the day,

00;22;06;19 - 00;22;10;25
when you when you are an organization
that ultimately relies on selling product

00;22;11;08 - 00;22;17;11
right then you have to find ways
to get out there and engage.

00;22;17;11 - 00;22;22;22
And so, we decided to do that
to our first webinar in June 2020.

00;22;23;07 - 00;22;25;12
And I remember it so clearly.

00;22;25;12 - 00;22;29;19
I remember being in a demo room
and we had two webcams

00;22;29;19 - 00;22;34;21
and we tried to do live presentation,
live demo with scientific equipment.

00;22;34;21 - 00;22;36;26
You know, it's never going to go quite as

00;22;38;23 - 00;22;40;06
I remember doing it.

00;22;40;06 - 00;22;44;06
And we had, you know, we had about 90
people on, and I was amazed to see

00;22;44;20 - 00;22;48;15
90 people that we had a captive audience
with for an hour.

00;22;48;15 - 00;22;50;23
And yeah, okay, people may have

00;22;50;23 - 00;22;54;02
tried to dial into the basket
weaving course and got us accidentally,

00;22;54;19 - 00;22;58;03
but, you know, it was it was great
to actually have that dialog with people.

00;22;58;03 - 00;23;00;15
And it's something
that we've stuck with.

00;23;00;15 - 00;23;04;14
And now if anyone's dived into
any of our webinars and much more polished

00;23;05;20 - 00;23;09;18
and we have a live Q&A section at the end,
which is which personally being always

00;23;09;18 - 00;23;13;16
the best bit for me
because it's great to feel that feedback

00;23;13;16 - 00;23;15;12
and hear what some of the questions and,

00;23;15;12 - 00;23;17;15
and try and sort of answer
them as best as possible.

00;23;17;15 - 00;23;20;15
We don't always have the answers right,
but we certainly try to find them out.

00;23;20;15 - 00;23;22;13
If we don't if we don't know it.

00;23;22;13 - 00;23;22;29
Absolutely.

00;23;22;29 - 00;23;26;01
The interaction is a great part
when you can sort of

00;23;26;01 - 00;23;29;03
you know, when it's not just one way
and you can get feedback, which is great.

00;23;29;25 - 00;23;32;09
I want to knock off a couple of things
off of the list here.

00;23;32;09 - 00;23;34;14
And because you have
there’re four areas here.

00;23;34;14 - 00;23;36;04
When I go under products
and they were actually.

00;23;36;04 - 00;23;37;21
it was a good way
to sort of approach this.

00;23;37;21 - 00;23;41;18
So, I want to circle back to the question
documents after the other three.

00;23;41;24 - 00;23;43;24
And so, can you give me
just a couple of minutes

00;23;43;24 - 00;23;47;09
on what you guys are doing right now
with trace evidence analysis?

00;23;47;09 - 00;23;49;16
I see, you know, a number of,
you know, some spectra.

00;23;49;16 - 00;23;51;11
You got forum,
you got some of the things there.

00;23;51;11 - 00;23;54;18
So just maybe give me a summary
of what you guys are doing in there

00;23;54;18 - 00;23;57;07
and then we'll go on to fingerprints,
forensic light sources and more.

00;23;57;07 - 00;23;58;21
Well, knock off question talking.

00;23;58;21 - 00;24;01;23
Yes. So, trace evidence is kind of

00;24;03;17 - 00;24;04;21
one aspect of what we do.

00;24;04;21 - 00;24;07;21
There are four main value streams
that you've got on the screen there

00;24;08;10 - 00;24;11;10
within the saw trace evidence

00;24;11;15 - 00;24;12;06
product line.

00;24;12;06 - 00;24;16;05
We have systems that allow us to do.

00;24;16;14 - 00;24;19;09
analysis of things
like fibers, glass fragments.

00;24;19;09 - 00;24;22;08
So, you may have heard of a technique
called

00;24;22;12 - 00;24;25;23
glass or glass
refractive index measurement or Grimm.

00;24;26;03 - 00;24;29;05
That's a technique that was developed
by Mike Foster and Freeman.

00;24;29;05 - 00;24;33;02
It allows you to look at the refractive
index of glass, match

00;24;33;10 - 00;24;36;17
a particular fragment of glass
to another source elsewhere.

00;24;36;28 - 00;24;42;12
So, we have within our trace evidence
product portfolio, we have a Grimm set up,

00;24;42;19 - 00;24;44;23
we do Raman spectroscopy as well.

00;24;44;23 - 00;24;48;23
So, we have a few different offerings
on laboratory benchtop, Roman's

00;24;49;02 - 00;24;50;28
spectrometers.

00;24;50;28 - 00;24;53;18
What different uses and applications.

00;24;53;18 - 00;24;55;07
We get involved from a question document

00;24;55;07 - 00;24;59;11
side of things we know that they use
for the analysis of inks, toners,

00;25;00;22 - 00;25;01;24
different things,

00;25;01;24 - 00;25;06;02
different things that may be on printed
surfaces, but that can also be useful

00;25;06;10 - 00;25;10;25
for looking at things like minerals and
and soils and whatnot.

00;25;11;12 - 00;25;14;12
And then we have an FTA, which is kind of,

00;25;14;23 - 00;25;18;07
I guess, our flagship trace
evidence system,

00;25;18;07 - 00;25;21;12
which allows you to do pretty much
anything that you would need to do

00;25;21;12 - 00;25;24;12
that uses a microscopes and micro spectra,
Photometry

00;25;25;01 - 00;25;28;00
said the glass refractive
index measurement

00;25;28;21 - 00;25;32;22
polarization microscopy
so, it's for the

00;25;33;03 - 00;25;36;23
the more advanced
I guess the more advanced laboratory

00;25;36;23 - 00;25;40;13
that requires to have that higher level
of interrogation down to the sort of

00;25;42;06 - 00;25;44;19
microscopic size.

00;25;44;19 - 00;25;47;06
On the fingerprint side,
you've got imaging systems,

00;25;47;06 - 00;25;49;28
you have filming systems, and you said,
you know, you have some novel techniques.

00;25;49;28 - 00;25;51;01
I think with powders and stuff.

00;25;51;01 - 00;25;53;07
So, give me some of your
give me a summary of what your.

00;25;53;07 - 00;25;56;16
Digital fingerprint technology
technologies

00;25;56;16 - 00;25;58;23
really break into two main areas.

00;25;58;23 - 00;26;00;09
One is finger mark enhancement.

00;26;00;09 - 00;26;03;14
So that would be
we've got to develop the fingerprints.

00;26;03;25 - 00;26;07;16
And so, one of the products
that we're sort of synonymous

00;26;07;16 - 00;26;11;16
with is signs like fuming,
which is so evaporating superglue.

00;26;12;22 - 00;26;13;15
And that's probably one of

00;26;13;15 - 00;26;17;06
the most longest standing techniques
for a fingerprint enhancement.

00;26;17;24 - 00;26;20;10
So, we develop cabinets for that.

00;26;20;10 - 00;26;22;11
We also have some novel techniques,
like many of us

00;26;22;11 - 00;26;25;11
like about recover, but we've also got
their infrared fingerprint powders.

00;26;25;20 - 00;26;27;07
And then once you've developed
these fingerprints

00;26;27;07 - 00;26;28;07
where you need to image them

00;26;28;07 - 00;26;32;01
and a fingerprint
imaging is an art and it's in its own

00;26;32;01 - 00;26;36;15
right, it's great if you've got a black
finger mark on a white piece of paper,

00;26;37;15 - 00;26;40;25
but when you haven't, it gets a little bit
more, a little bit more interesting.

00;26;40;25 - 00;26;47;06
So, we have imaging workstations
from more automated, simple to use to

00;26;47;27 - 00;26;53;09
much, much more advanced kind of pro-grade
SLR camera driven systems as well.

00;26;53;23 - 00;26;54;10
Okay.

00;26;54;10 - 00;26;56;19
On the laser side,
I mean, you have a bunch of stuff there.

00;26;56;19 - 00;26;58;21
And I know that when you did
the presentation, you talked a lot about,

00;26;58;21 - 00;27;00;20
you know, infrared
and things that fluoresce

00;27;00;20 - 00;27;01;23
and all kinds of stuff like that.

00;27;01;23 - 00;27;04;00
So, and I see the chrome light.

00;27;04;00 - 00;27;04;27
There's a whole bunch of things.

00;27;04;27 - 00;27;07;17
So yeah, a quick, quick summary. The

00;27;09;05 - 00;27;09;16
customer.

00;27;09;16 - 00;27;13;02
Freeman, I guess, and Crime
Light are two words that you often hear.

00;27;13;11 - 00;27;14;27
They go hand in on. We

00;27;14;27 - 00;27;18;28
we were the first company that introduced
an LSD based forensic light source.

00;27;19;11 - 00;27;22;17
Before that, people were using things
like xenon off lamps, halogen lights.

00;27;22;17 - 00;27;24;03
They were filtering the light.

00;27;24;03 - 00;27;27;17
The problem we have with that, of course,
is that the intensity

00;27;29;00 - 00;27;29;23
output a day.

00;27;29;23 - 00;27;33;28
Why is difference in intensity
a day to day three, day four, you don't

00;27;34;02 - 00;27;36;20
you don't have the ability
to finally filter

00;27;36;20 - 00;27;38;20
the light in the same way
that you do in early days.

00;27;38;20 - 00;27;41;28
So, when the LEDs came onto the market
in the late nineties,

00;27;43;00 - 00;27;44;07
it was something that we saw.

00;27;44;07 - 00;27;46;13
Yeah,
there's actually some application here.

00;27;46;13 - 00;27;47;28
And so, we actually

00;27;48;26 - 00;27;50;17
took that on and

00;27;50;17 - 00;27;53;13
we developed the crime light
and that's kind of gone

00;27;53;13 - 00;27;57;29
on from single leads
to really very intense 16 day,

00;27;58;00 - 00;28;01;22
really high output intensity, hand-held
light sources.

00;28;02;04 - 00;28;05;23
We developed a laser product
that we launched a year ago as well.

00;28;06;03 - 00;28;09;14
So, taking something that would be the size
of a small suitcase,

00;28;10;13 - 00;28;15;06
which would be your arc to typical lasers,
to something that is handheld,

00;28;15;06 - 00;28;19;03
really portable, untethered battery
powered to the crime scene.

00;28;20;09 - 00;28;23;29
And then I guess that's really culminated
in the crime light Auto,

00;28;23;29 - 00;28;29;23
which is taking all of our crime
light technology and know how

00;28;29;28 - 00;28;32;28
and all of our imaging expertise
and putting it all together

00;28;33;01 - 00;28;36;06
and having a handheld system
that you can take out to a crime scene,

00;28;37;08 - 00;28;41;10
use a range of multi-spectral
imaging, cross across the spectrum, U.V.

00;28;41;10 - 00;28;45;12
visible infrared, capture
the image, send it onto an app,

00;28;45;12 - 00;28;47;15
and then send it
straight, straight back to the laboratory.

00;28;47;15 - 00;28;49;16
So, times have changed.

00;28;49;16 - 00;28;53;01
The
the practitioner needs have changed

00;28;53;01 - 00;28;56;29
and the requirements to do things
methodically.

00;28;56;29 - 00;29;01;13
They record things as you go is driven the
evolution of that particular technology.

00;29;01;13 - 00;29;04;25
So yeah, that's been a really interesting
journey over the last ten years.

00;29;04;25 - 00;29;05;19
I'd say.

00;29;05;19 - 00;29;08;19
Now with all these products
and even with the question

00;29;08;28 - 00;29;10;18
document examination area,

00;29;10;18 - 00;29;14;06
are you doing is it pretty much products
or are you doing services as well.

00;29;16;18 - 00;29;18;08
In terms of.

00;29;18;08 - 00;29;19;01
For example.

00;29;19;01 - 00;29;22;00
Yeah, somebody's got a difficult
Yeah, like a case.

00;29;22;00 - 00;29;24;21
No, we, we generally don't say

00;29;24;21 - 00;29;27;28
generally
we don't do anything like that in-house.

00;29;27;28 - 00;29;30;28
We have supported in instances where

00;29;32;15 - 00;29;35;29
a particular technology
might be required for a particular case.

00;29;35;29 - 00;29;41;25
That was a cold case actually
in, in the US where we used the recover

00;29;42;10 - 00;29;45;15
technology on an item of evidence
that was from that.

00;29;45;22 - 00;29;48;17
I was a 38-year-old cold case

00;29;48;17 - 00;29;51;17
and we developed the mark
that actually identified the individual

00;29;52;02 - 00;29;55;09
and that was,
that was an instance where it was, well,

00;29;55;09 - 00;29;56;09
we haven't got anything else.

00;29;56;09 - 00;29;59;06
We've tried everything
we've heard about this technology.

00;29;59;06 - 00;30;00;19
Can we give it a go?

00;30;00;19 - 00;30;01;18
And so, we did.

00;30;01;18 - 00;30;06;02
And it's good to work
really closely with them, with forces

00;30;06;12 - 00;30;10;14
on the front line
to give them some product

00;30;11;04 - 00;30;14;10
where they need it, when they need it,
and try and support it in that way.

00;30;14;21 - 00;30;15;23
Okay.

00;30;15;23 - 00;30;18;23
So, on the question documents, again,
there’re three areas here

00;30;18;24 - 00;30;21;02
and under the laboratory systems,
which I'll bring it up here,

00;30;21;02 - 00;30;23;12
let's talk about the ESD two.
That's this one product.

00;30;23;12 - 00;30;24;20
And there is an interesting case here.

00;30;24;20 - 00;30;26;07
Can you
can you talk about the case that you

00;30;26;07 - 00;30;27;29
where you use this particular instance.
Right.

00;30;27;29 - 00;30;29;13
So, the as the whole.

00;30;29;13 - 00;30;33;20
Yes. The ag electrostatic
detection apparatus and that is

00;30;34;16 - 00;30;39;16
pretty much the product that started
Boston Freeman back in the late seventies.

00;30;39;16 - 00;30;45;11
So, the company was officially formed
in 1978 and an interesting background

00;30;45;11 - 00;30;50;00
because this this product is synonymous
with question, document examination.

00;30;50;08 - 00;30;54;01
Every question, document, lab,
laboratory will have an answer in there.

00;30;55;17 - 00;30;57;08
The process

00;30;57;08 - 00;31;00;13
as it's used today is primarily

00;31;00;13 - 00;31;03;13
for developing indented, writing on paper.

00;31;03;21 - 00;31;06;21
So, when you
when you're writing with a pen,

00;31;07;17 - 00;31;09;18
obviously, several sheets below that,

00;31;09;18 - 00;31;13;16
you can't see any visible indentations
for the most part,

00;31;13;28 - 00;31;17;08
the as has the ability
to reveal those indentations.

00;31;17;08 - 00;31;22;22
Now when that product when the research
was going into this particular product

00;31;22;22 - 00;31;26;08
in the in the seventies by the company
owners Doug Foster and Bob Freeman

00;31;26;25 - 00;31;31;17
they were they were working on a project
for the London College of Printing

00;31;31;22 - 00;31;36;05
and there their project scope
was to develop a non-contact

00;31;36;26 - 00;31;40;05
technique
for developing fingerprints on fabrics.

00;31;40;24 - 00;31;43;24
And they came up with these selectors
static approach

00;31;43;28 - 00;31;47;23
and it didn't really work
for developing fingerprints or fabrics.

00;31;47;23 - 00;31;51;11
It does work at developing
fresh fingerprints on some surfaces,

00;31;51;11 - 00;31;54;11
but for the most part, it kind of failed
in what it set out to do.

00;31;54;13 - 00;31;58;20
What they did find, again, one of these
one kind of serendipitous observations

00;31;58;20 - 00;32;02;00
was that they were able
to develop these indentations

00;32;02;07 - 00;32;05;20
and they then work quite closely
with the UK police.

00;32;05;20 - 00;32;09;10
And as you've got on the screen there,
the very first case

00;32;10;06 - 00;32;12;10
in the late seventies was

00;32;12;10 - 00;32;17;12
there was a bank robbery in London
and the that was a note

00;32;17;12 - 00;32;19;26
that was handed over to the
to the bank teller

00;32;19;26 - 00;32;24;14
and the police ended up taking that note
and using this

00;32;24;14 - 00;32;27;27
as the process, which wasn't a
it wasn't a technology at the time.

00;32;27;27 - 00;32;30;11
It wasn't
something that had been launched. Sorry.

00;32;30;11 - 00;32;35;08
And they actually developed
some indentations that was

00;32;35;10 - 00;32;40;02
that was basically a letter
to somebody in Canada asking them,

00;32;40;08 - 00;32;43;23
pleading with them to send money
to an address in Surrey, in the UK.

00;32;44;16 - 00;32;47;05
The police then went to that address
and found the person

00;32;47;05 - 00;32;50;13
that had committed this
this particular robbery.

00;32;50;13 - 00;32;56;18
So that was the moment whereby Doug
Foster and Bob Freeman realized

00;32;56;18 - 00;33;00;22
they had something pretty powerful
and they developed the ASA.

00;33;00;22 - 00;33;03;23
They started building it from there,
from that shed, from that

00;33;03;23 - 00;33;07;01
from the garage, the hometown in London.

00;33;07;12 - 00;33;11;03
And, and the company really sort of
formed off the back of that.

00;33;11;03 - 00;33;14;07
So, question document
examination really started.

00;33;14;07 - 00;33;15;03
Foster and Freeman.

00;33;15;03 - 00;33;17;22
It's at the very heart of what we do.

00;33;17;22 - 00;33;20;29
But as you say,
the way that forensics work is

00;33;21;13 - 00;33;24;22
you borrow technologies from certain areas
to apply them in others,

00;33;24;22 - 00;33;26;27
and we've branched out
as a function of that

00;33;26;27 - 00;33;29;01
to those full value streams
that you mentioned.

00;33;29;01 - 00;33;29;13
Okay.

00;33;29;13 - 00;33;33;14
So, what is the these
DSC instruments do for you?

00;33;35;01 - 00;33;35;10
Okay.

00;33;35;10 - 00;33;38;10
So, the VSC is a video spectral comparator

00;33;38;26 - 00;33;41;26
and there are a range of the assays
from the

00;33;42;08 - 00;33;45;29
at the more entry level or the more basic

00;33;45;29 - 00;33;48;20
in terms of functionality
to what you've got on the screen.

00;33;48;20 - 00;33;51;19
Now on the left-hand side of the SC 8000,

00;33;51;21 - 00;33;54;21
that's also a flagship VSC system.

00;33;55;15 - 00;33;57;15
They allow this

00;33;57;15 - 00;34;00;20
the examiner
whether it be on the front line,

00;34;00;20 - 00;34;04;00
whether it be secondary
and tertiary examination

00;34;04;00 - 00;34;09;08
in the sort of back offices
or in a laboratory to analyze

00;34;09;26 - 00;34;13;01
suspect documents, identity cards,

00;34;13;29 - 00;34;17;05
anything that you can sit
in, that sort of thing

00;34;17;18 - 00;34;21;17
inside the actual unit, we can examine it
with a range of light sources,

00;34;22;14 - 00;34;26;19
a range of different
imaging techniques and technologies,

00;34;27;00 - 00;34;33;18
and it allows you to confirm authenticity
to look for any fraudulent activity,

00;34;33;18 - 00;34;38;28
any kind of obliteration, anything suspect
that may have happened to a document

00;34;40;00 - 00;34;43;00
is what the VSC is really designed to do.

00;34;44;05 - 00;34;46;14
You have bank

00;34;46;14 - 00;34;48;29
banks use them for authenticating

00;34;48;29 - 00;34;52;24
and looking at security features
in in bank notes, for example.

00;34;53;09 - 00;34;56;09
But it's a really powerful tool
that just allows you to

00;34;56;12 - 00;34;59;15
to take a piece of evidence
generally something that's flat

00;35;00;25 - 00;35;02;18
and interrogate it

00;35;02;18 - 00;35;05;12
optically and kind of learn from it.

00;35;05;12 - 00;35;07;19
It's a video spectral comparator.

00;35;07;19 - 00;35;12;05
The idea being that you compare it
to a known unknown standard

00;35;12;05 - 00;35;15;05
or something that you believe to be

00;35;16;03 - 00;35;17;07
believed to be true.

00;35;17;07 - 00;35;17;23
Okay, great.

00;35;17;23 - 00;35;20;24
So, with the with different wavelengths,
you may be able to separate

00;35;20;24 - 00;35;23;05
one type of thing
versus another or something.

00;35;23;05 - 00;35;26;17
A classic example is a is a is a check
that's been written.

00;35;26;17 - 00;35;28;06
We don't really do checks anymore. Right.

00;35;28;06 - 00;35;30;20
But it has been written
for a certain amount

00;35;30;20 - 00;35;33;20
and then someone's added an extra zero
on the end of it.

00;35;33;28 - 00;35;37;14
Well, with the VSC quite often
once the visibly may look

00;35;37;14 - 00;35;40;27
the same glowing black ink, red
ink or whatever,

00;35;41;24 - 00;35;44;14
when you illuminate them
at different parts of the spectrum,

00;35;44;14 - 00;35;47;29
there are some very fine differences
that you can often say in terms of

00;35;48;00 - 00;35;51;00
efflorescence, in terms of our absorption
or their reflection.

00;35;51;05 - 00;35;53;25
And the VSC allows you
to differentiate those

00;35;53;25 - 00;35;57;02
and to sort of say,
okay, that has some things going on here.

00;35;57;19 - 00;36;02;06
A similar sort of example
is deeds of a house or a will.

00;36;02;06 - 00;36;04;14
If pages have been inserted.

00;36;04;14 - 00;36;08;00
There are things that you can look for
in terms of the type or into

00;36;08;02 - 00;36;11;29
or in terms of the spacing
of different fluorescent

00;36;11;29 - 00;36;16;04
properties of the actual of the inks
or of the actual paper itself.

00;36;16;13 - 00;36;19;03
And that's what the where
the VC's really come into their own.

00;36;19;03 - 00;36;22;12
And we have a range of them
because we appreciate the fact that

00;36;22;28 - 00;36;27;08
if your, for example, immigration
and your so for a non border inspection

00;36;27;17 - 00;36;31;02
you need a different set of tools in a
in a small footprint

00;36;31;10 - 00;36;34;14
than you might have
when you're kind of back in the laboratory

00;36;34;14 - 00;36;38;10
where you need as much as you
as you can possibly have. You

00;36;40;09 - 00;36;43;08
look a while
back, we had we had a discussion about,

00;36;43;08 - 00;36;46;24
you know, using 3D technologies for an eye
question, documents and stuff like that.

00;36;47;02 - 00;36;50;01
And so, I'm curious about how,

00;36;50;20 - 00;36;53;11
you know, what first prompted
your interest in that particular area,

00;36;53;11 - 00;36;55;10
because I know
there are some papers out there

00;36;55;10 - 00;36;58;03
and I've had some other guests
talking about question documents,

00;36;58;03 - 00;36;59;25
and they've just been
a little bit of work in there.

00;36;59;25 - 00;37;04;00
But it seems relatively new that there's
still a lot of work to be done

00;37;04;00 - 00;37;05;17
in that particular field.

00;37;05;17 - 00;37;08;27
Yeah, I think historically we have

00;37;08;27 - 00;37;11;27
we have developed ways to

00;37;12;28 - 00;37;16;13
allow the end user
to observe and interrogate

00;37;17;12 - 00;37;19;14
three dimensional features.

00;37;19;14 - 00;37;22;18
Now, when we look at
when we look at images,

00;37;23;11 - 00;37;26;11
forensic images, there
we see a two dimensional

00;37;26;20 - 00;37;29;27
representation of something,
but we live in a three-dimensional world.

00;37;29;27 - 00;37;35;13
And so, you know, it is true to say that
when you interrogate things on the z-axis,

00;37;35;13 - 00;37;36;03
there's probably more

00;37;36;03 - 00;37;39;04
another layer of information,
another dimension of information

00;37;39;22 - 00;37;40;18
that that to be had.

00;37;40;18 - 00;37;45;01
And what we've tried to do
as the technology has evolved is

00;37;46;26 - 00;37;48;09
develop

00;37;48;09 - 00;37;50;28
complementary lighting that has allowed us

00;37;50;28 - 00;37;54;14
to get the best out of that
three-dimensional profile.

00;37;54;14 - 00;37;58;18
Now we know that there are tactile
features on identity cards and passports,

00;37;58;18 - 00;37;59;28
and so, we can feel them.

00;37;59;28 - 00;38;03;00
We need to be able to imagine and that's
quite difficult sometimes, you know,

00;38;03;07 - 00;38;06;07
you rely on
when you've got a camera above something,

00;38;07;05 - 00;38;11;09
you rely on, effectively illuminating it
in a way

00;38;11;09 - 00;38;15;06
that gives you like lowlights
and highlights and everything in between.

00;38;16;18 - 00;38;20;02
And we develop the technology

00;38;20;02 - 00;38;23;08
to a point
where we were able to do that pretty well.

00;38;23;08 - 00;38;26;15
Side lighting is really effective,
actually, illumination, all these kinds of

00;38;27;19 - 00;38;29;09
tools and tricks.

00;38;29;09 - 00;38;34;10
But more recently we introduced a process
called Photometric Stereo,

00;38;34;17 - 00;38;38;29
and Photometric Stereo is effectively
and it simply stands

00;38;39;12 - 00;38;44;15
where you illuminate from different angles
all the way around a particular subject.

00;38;44;26 - 00;38;47;26
So, you have subjects in the middle
and you illuminate all the way around,

00;38;47;26 - 00;38;50;13
and you can do that
at different parts of the spectrum.

00;38;50;13 - 00;38;52;25
But what that does is it creates.

00;38;52;25 - 00;38;55;21
Yeah, in that instance
I saw the limited sign.

00;38;55;21 - 00;38;58;16
You can see that
that the image in the middle there is

00;39;00;08 - 00;39;01;07
each one of those is

00;39;01;07 - 00;39;04;07
a snapshot from an illumination
at a different angle.

00;39;04;07 - 00;39;06;19
And when you build that composite image,

00;39;06;19 - 00;39;09;06
you can get all of that
detail come together.

00;39;09;06 - 00;39;10;00
So, the image on the right.

00;39;10;00 - 00;39;17;08
So that's where we had got up to
with the 3D imaging within the bases.

00;39;17;08 - 00;39;21;15
And it was a really, really powerful tool.

00;39;21;15 - 00;39;24;15
And when we launched it
only a couple of years back,

00;39;24;22 - 00;39;28;04
people were seeing
some really impressive results from it.

00;39;28;04 - 00;39;31;18
But I guess the question then is, well,
what's the where's the application?

00;39;31;29 - 00;39;34;21
How do we how we relate what we're seeing?

00;39;34;21 - 00;39;37;01
Yes, it's nice to have these great images.

00;39;37;01 - 00;39;41;04
How do we relate that
to a particular forensic challenge?

00;39;41;04 - 00;39;42;19
And that's really

00;39;42;19 - 00;39;46;13
what this paper tried to address a little
bit more, because we had

00;39;47;20 - 00;39;48;03
we had

00;39;48;03 - 00;39;51;28
within our own
sort of research and development team done

00;39;51;28 - 00;39;57;26
quite a lot of applications exercises
looking at the power of Photometric area.

00;39;57;26 - 00;40;02;02
And we were we were aware that actually
one of the longest standing challenges

00;40;02;02 - 00;40;06;17
for question document examiners
examiners are intersecting lines.

00;40;06;17 - 00;40;08;29
So, where you have to pin strokes

00;40;08;29 - 00;40;12;18
to understand the sequence of those lines
is really, really quite difficult.

00;40;12;18 - 00;40;15;20
And there are instrumental techniques

00;40;15;20 - 00;40;19;16
that are highly sophisticated
using seriously expensive equipment

00;40;19;24 - 00;40;24;02
that can to some extent
give you some degree of objectivity.

00;40;25;11 - 00;40;27;25
But it's not in the platform

00;40;27;25 - 00;40;31;20
or the all the kind of entity the question
document examiners are used to using.

00;40;32;28 - 00;40;36;12
And so, we wanted to try and delve
a little bit deeper into the application

00;40;36;12 - 00;40;39;27
of Photometric area,
because we had seen that we could see some

00;40;40;04 - 00;40;43;09
pretty significant differences
that allowed us to say,

00;40;43;23 - 00;40;46;19
you know, in a in a
let's say a blind study,

00;40;46;19 - 00;40;50;05
you could quite easily discern
which there was the first stroke,

00;40;50;05 - 00;40;50;29
which was the second.

00;40;50;29 - 00;40;54;07
So, what we tried to do with this
particular piece of work was said, okay,

00;40;54;07 - 00;40;59;06
well, we know photometric
so, as it has some benefits to,

00;41;00;19 - 00;41;05;11
to forensic science in
terms of the analysis of some documents.

00;41;05;11 - 00;41;07;11
There were other applications as well.

00;41;07;11 - 00;41;11;12
But actually, let's try and put that
into some sort of context in terms

00;41;11;12 - 00;41;14;16
of the applications that you might have
where it can come in useful.

00;41;14;23 - 00;41;18;21
And then building on from that,
this particular paper

00;41;19;07 - 00;41;23;11
then took things a little bit further
in terms of another type of imaging,

00;41;23;11 - 00;41;26;26
which is elastomeric sensor imaging,
which was

00;41;28;14 - 00;41;31;14
kind of a completely abstract

00;41;32;19 - 00;41;33;03
approach.

00;41;33;03 - 00;41;37;15
Utilization of a piece of technology,
which I'd happen to have seen was I think,

00;41;37;24 - 00;41;41;19
truly linked in actually, and I'd seen
that there was this technology,

00;41;42;09 - 00;41;45;22
this last elastomeric sensor
imaging that was being used for

00;41;46;03 - 00;41;50;01
the analysis of surface
defects on different metals.

00;41;50;01 - 00;41;53;14
So, during the manufacturing process thing
to ensure that you had

00;41;53;17 - 00;41;56;16
a particular grading pattern
or what have you,

00;41;56;25 - 00;42;00;18
and the resolution on the sensitivity
seemed to be really high.

00;42;00;27 - 00;42;04;14
But one of the things that interested me
and the guys that we were working with on

00;42;04;14 - 00;42;06;18
this project was that you were able

00;42;06;18 - 00;42;10;28
to use that particular modality
to give you a degree of quantification

00;42;12;07 - 00;42;12;19
to make sure.

00;42;12;19 - 00;42;14;20
So, I was very good
at seeing these differences

00;42;14;20 - 00;42;16;15
and presenting them
as what you've got on the screen, that

00;42;16;15 - 00;42;19;21
which is like a bump map where you can see
the from the relief pattern,

00;42;21;21 - 00;42;24;16
but it's harder to discern depth

00;42;24;16 - 00;42;27;16
and what are what we were trying to

00;42;28;09 - 00;42;30;16
establish with this paper was,

00;42;30;16 - 00;42;33;16
is what we're seeing
with Photometric Stereo, where you can

00;42;33;16 - 00;42;37;20
clearly see that there are differences
in pressure points and that is

00;42;37;20 - 00;42;42;01
that directly related, as we suspected,
to quantifiable measurements.

00;42;42;01 - 00;42;45;12
And we would our plan was to use
the elastomeric sensor imaging or

00;42;45;23 - 00;42;48;23
on the gel side product to kind of

00;42;49;17 - 00;42;52;22
complete that that kind of hypothesis,
if you will.

00;42;53;20 - 00;42;56;27
And so, we used the two,
the two different technologies

00;42;57;00 - 00;42;59;29
in a complementary manner
to kind of prove that actually, yes,

00;42;59;29 - 00;43;03;26
that is that is the case
and is a really interesting piece of work.

00;43;04;04 - 00;43;07;27
Obviously couldn't have done it
without the coauthors, who to some extent

00;43;07;27 - 00;43;11;24
have a lot more experience
in question document and

00;43;12;09 - 00;43;15;01
and the analysis
of this kind of data than I do.

00;43;15;01 - 00;43;18;11
But it was good to kind of take something
that you found to think, well,

00;43;18;11 - 00;43;19;17
actually that's

00;43;19;17 - 00;43;22;24
that's got a really interesting
application for the automotive industry,

00;43;22;24 - 00;43;26;04
but I can really see some benefits
to forensic science,

00;43;26;04 - 00;43;28;24
and that's having a little bit of a
look at it.

00;43;28;24 - 00;43;33;04
If Photometric Stereo I and I knew this
from a while ago doing some research

00;43;33;04 - 00;43;35;17
is that it's really good
for very fine details,

00;43;35;17 - 00;43;38;18
but it's often prone to distortions
over larger areas.

00;43;39;22 - 00;43;43;27
So, I guess that's why people don't use it
for like very big models or whatever

00;43;43;27 - 00;43;44;29
it is, has to be a very small area.

00;43;44;29 - 00;43;48;08
So, and I noticed in your paper
you did mention that what you call like

00;43;48;08 - 00;43;51;08
low frequency distortions
and things like that,

00;43;51;10 - 00;43;54;28
but gel side
I had known about from Padre Forensics,

00;43;54;28 - 00;43;58;13
they use it for ballistics or for,
you know, cartridge cases and things.

00;43;58;22 - 00;44;02;04
And so, it's an interesting technology,
but it is a contact technology. So

00;44;03;07 - 00;44;06;13
although I think that's
one of what was one of the things that,

00;44;06;25 - 00;44;09;25
you know, with any piece of research
that you present,

00;44;10;22 - 00;44;14;08
it's important to kind of discuss it
from all angles

00;44;14;08 - 00;44;17;13
and talk about the strengths,
weaknesses, limitations, applications.

00;44;17;25 - 00;44;22;02
And I think one of the things that we
we did kind of conclude with

00;44;22;12 - 00;44;26;10
with that particular technique
in its current form

00;44;26;15 - 00;44;30;02
and there are some thoughts about how
it could be exploited in a different way.

00;44;30;25 - 00;44;33;26
Was that because you were making contact

00;44;33;26 - 00;44;36;25
with the, the, the sample?

00;44;37;12 - 00;44;40;19
We did have questions as to how

00;44;41;01 - 00;44;44;04
from a repeatability perspective,
if you did

00;44;44;16 - 00;44;47;25
ten scans, would it look the same
on the 10th as it does on the first?

00;44;47;25 - 00;44;51;08
Because you're naturally depressing the
the particular sample.

00;44;51;08 - 00;44;54;08
So, I think it will really depend
on what you're looking at.

00;44;54;17 - 00;44;55;06
But if it

00;44;56;10 - 00;44;57;03
but we also

00;44;57;03 - 00;45;00;05
saw in some instances
where we were looking at

00;45;00;16 - 00;45;02;09
specific things,
we were seeing that we were getting

00;45;02;09 - 00;45;04;17
some transfer
onto the bottom of the gel pad.

00;45;04;17 - 00;45;08;21
This on the device we had, we
so, we have obviously had to clean it off.

00;45;08;21 - 00;45;11;28
And so
so, there are obviously where you can be

00;45;11;29 - 00;45;15;10
non-contact is better some.

00;45;15;17 - 00;45;19;14
How much pressure you actually
putting on the device or the gel.

00;45;20;29 - 00;45;23;23
So, it was a bit of a trial and error

00;45;23;23 - 00;45;26;23
kind of approach and we ended up

00;45;27;11 - 00;45;30;21
kind of doing it almost to feel

00;45;31;15 - 00;45;35;09
that there comes a point where certainly
with the samples that we were looking at,

00;45;35;24 - 00;45;39;15
you can press harder and harder,
but you don't see any

00;45;39;15 - 00;45;43;07
any further changes
to the to the values that were coming out.

00;45;43;07 - 00;45;45;09
And that was kind of our on-set point.

00;45;45;09 - 00;45;48;29
I believe that that this
that the application that Padre forensics

00;45;48;29 - 00;45;53;22
are using for their ballistics
examination, they apply a fixed pressure

00;45;54;06 - 00;45;58;02
which is absolutely the right way
to go about it, because

00;45;58;17 - 00;46;02;02
then you can be sure that you've got
that reliability in that repeatability.

00;46;02;17 - 00;46;04;24
The problem, of course,
is it's a contact process.

00;46;04;24 - 00;46;06;07
So, you're going to have contact transfer

00;46;07;16 - 00;46;10;16
and then you get into the rounds of, well,

00;46;10;23 - 00;46;14;03
cross-contamination, DNA, etc., etc..

00;46;14;24 - 00;46;15;22
Is the is the.

00;46;15;22 - 00;46;17;29
Gel just called a gel pad?

00;46;17;29 - 00;46;19;15
I'm not sure was properly termed.

00;46;19;15 - 00;46;22;14
But is it
something that is, you know, good for,

00;46;22;14 - 00;46;24;03
you know, hundreds of scans
or hundreds of.

00;46;24;03 - 00;46;28;11
Yeah, it depends, it depends on the on

00;46;28;12 - 00;46;31;29
on the particular application
and the pressure that's being used.

00;46;32;07 - 00;46;35;26
They have a high sensitivity
and a low sensitivity gel.

00;46;35;26 - 00;46;38;26
So, I said I guess
a different chemical composition,

00;46;38;29 - 00;46;41;29
but you’re right a gel pad
and it's got a

00;46;42;23 - 00;46;45;23
like a silver coating on one side

00;46;46;11 - 00;46;47;19
and it's good stuff.

00;46;47;19 - 00;46;47;28
Yeah.

00;46;47;28 - 00;46;50;03
Hundreds
into the thousands of applications

00;46;50;03 - 00;46;53;03
depending on what
your what you're doing with it,

00;46;53;03 - 00;46;56;28
it can be cleaned down in between runs
and they're relatively cheap

00;46;56;28 - 00;47;00;06
I think to, to replace
the consumable side of things.

00;47;00;17 - 00;47;01;26
Okay So let me ask you this.

00;47;01;26 - 00;47;06;07
You've got the Photometric Stereo,
you've got the gel side system, the like

00;47;06;07 - 00;47;07;07
the last summer,

00;47;08;07 - 00;47;09;22
you know, this job had or whatever.

00;47;09;22 - 00;47;11;09
So, what was the test

00;47;11;09 - 00;47;14;23
that you performed with each of these
and what did each of the results show?

00;47;15;13 - 00;47;19;00
So, what you've
what you've got on the screen, that was

00;47;19;00 - 00;47;20;03
was our starting point.

00;47;20;03 - 00;47;23;11
We were we
if you just maybe scroll up a little.

00;47;23;11 - 00;47;25;00
Yeah. We

00;47;25;00 - 00;47;27;19
we had a donor

00;47;27;19 - 00;47;30;19
basically, write that signature.

00;47;30;25 - 00;47;33;05
We did it so eight times.

00;47;33;05 - 00;47;37;15
But two of those instances we asked them
to do the signature in reverse.

00;47;38;17 - 00;47;41;04
And we did that at different points
across that.

00;47;41;04 - 00;47;42;20
We didn't just do that right at end.

00;47;42;20 - 00;47;43;10
We did it kind of

00;47;43;10 - 00;47;46;21
in the middle of the sequence of eight
because we wanted to interrupt the

00;47;47;07 - 00;47;50;28
the kind of regularity of the process and

00;47;52;00 - 00;47;53;24
quite
obviously, just from looking at these,

00;47;53;24 - 00;47;58;19
you can see which two have been done
as the unnatural

00;47;59;25 - 00;48;02;02
method, but that wasn't the point.

00;48;02;02 - 00;48;04;14
This work, it wasn't an experience.

00;48;04;14 - 00;48;07;21
Question Document examiners would easily
be able to say well that on there is

00;48;07;21 - 00;48;11;00
is a is
that is not an authentic signature.

00;48;11;00 - 00;48;14;29
But what we were trying to show
was what when you're when you're kind of

00;48;14;29 - 00;48;18;21
doing things in a certain reliable,
repeatable manner,

00;48;19;10 - 00;48;23;05
you get certain grooves
in different formations on the paper.

00;48;23;16 - 00;48;28;20
When that changes, then so do
so does the three-dimensional effects

00;48;28;20 - 00;48;31;20
that you're imparting
on, on the actual surface.

00;48;32;01 - 00;48;35;27
And so, we, we got one of the guys to it
to do the signature.

00;48;35;27 - 00;48;39;07
We then analyzed it, as you can see here,
this is with Photometric Stereo

00;48;39;18 - 00;48;40;29
and you can clearly see that on

00;48;40;29 - 00;48;44;22
what we were looking for was the changes
at the intersections or changes where

00;48;44;22 - 00;48;45;17
there's a, a

00;48;47;04 - 00;48;49;16
a discontinuation
of the of the flow of the stroke.

00;48;49;16 - 00;48;52;16
So, where you're going up
and then straight down,

00;48;52;19 - 00;48;55;08
we were we were interested
in those particular areas.

00;48;55;08 - 00;48;59;04
And what we what we found was,
as we suspected that we were getting

00;48;59;04 - 00;49;03;17
complete differences at the intersections
where the lines crossed

00;49;03;17 - 00;49;07;24
and we were getting a difference in the
where the actual

00;49;08;12 - 00;49;11;20
the depth profile was
was being carved out into the paper,

00;49;12;04 - 00;49;15;04
where the substrate where the signature
was being done in reverse.

00;49;16;07 - 00;49;16;27
Interesting.

00;49;16;27 - 00;49;19;12
And the that was the photometric stereo.

00;49;19;12 - 00;49;25;02
And then so we had the images there
and then we then took those intersections

00;49;25;02 - 00;49;29;14
and we looked at them with the gel side
so that we could understand,

00;49;29;14 - 00;49;32;21
quantify a play,
the difference in the depth profile.

00;49;32;21 - 00;49;36;18
So, there you can see the GSI images
of those particular areas

00;49;37;09 - 00;49;42;14
and below each of those is an actual it's
effectively a surface profile.

00;49;43;17 - 00;49;45;01
And you can quite clearly

00;49;45;01 - 00;49;48;26
see the jump
where the paper goes into the pen

00;49;49;17 - 00;49;52;17
and we were able to kind of,

00;49;52;19 - 00;49;55;06
I guess, substantiate

00;49;55;06 - 00;49;59;26
photometric stereo findings
with the Elastomeric sensor

00;50;00;03 - 00;50;05;25
imaging findings as well, is that that was
the start at starting point of the work.

00;50;05;25 - 00;50;08;25
And then we did some other work looking at

00;50;09;01 - 00;50;12;01
the sequence of panning

00;50;12;12 - 00;50;14;28
with toner that was printed on.

00;50;14;28 - 00;50;20;09
So, can you tell whether it's quite hard
optically sometimes to, to discern

00;50;20;09 - 00;50;24;11
whether a pen stroke is above or below
an area of toner?

00;50;25;08 - 00;50;27;22
And so, this example here,

00;50;27;22 - 00;50;30;27
we were able to differentiate the two
because we could see the difference

00;50;30;27 - 00;50;34;06
in depth profile
between when the toner was applied

00;50;34;06 - 00;50;37;05
on top of the pen stroke or
when the toner was applied below the pen.

00;50;37;14 - 00;50;39;28
It gave you
a completely different profile.

00;50;39;28 - 00;50;41;27
Now, the again,
we talked about the profile.

00;50;41;27 - 00;50;44;09
You look at that cross-section
when you cut across it or whatever.

00;50;44;09 - 00;50;46;12
And I think that's really important
part, is

00;50;46;12 - 00;50;49;24
you can quantify it now because you can
say, hey, look, if we compare, you know,

00;50;49;26 - 00;50;54;16
five samples together,
we get this repeatable sort of, you know,

00;50;54;17 - 00;50;59;01
within some tolerance of this,
this, these profiles.

00;50;59;11 - 00;51;03;09
And so that doesn't seem like something
that has really been

00;51;03;25 - 00;51;06;03
presented that way before.
Or has it maybe I'm wrong.

00;51;07;13 - 00;51;10;16
No, but people of people have it's
been looked at.

00;51;10;28 - 00;51;13;14
But certainly

00;51;13;14 - 00;51;15;20
in terms of

00;51;15;20 - 00;51;18;07
what we were trying to do here
was actually have something

00;51;18;07 - 00;51;21;06
which is relatively accessible.

00;51;21;24 - 00;51;25;29
We did some work with the University
of Kent a couple of years back

00;51;26;12 - 00;51;29;25
and we were doing similar
bit of work really, where we were looking

00;51;29;25 - 00;51;32;29
at three-dimensional imaging of question
documents, but we were using

00;51;33;15 - 00;51;36;24
a technique called optical coherence
tomography or CT.

00;51;36;29 - 00;51;41;06
Now typically
you'll see that at the optometrist

00;51;41;06 - 00;51;45;08
when you go to have a scan of the retina
because it's generally used

00;51;45;08 - 00;51;48;08
for imaging biological tissue and getting

00;51;48;19 - 00;51;51;07
getting layers through

00;51;51;07 - 00;51;55;08
biological tissue and building up
a 3D profile of what that looks like.

00;51;55;13 - 00;51;58;13
We wondered whether we use it

00;51;58;13 - 00;52;02;04
to interrogate question documents
in the third dimension.

00;52;02;16 - 00;52;05;24
And we actually published a piece of work
looking at polycarbonate

00;52;06;01 - 00;52;07;23
and the on-identity cards.

00;52;07;23 - 00;52;12;01
You get layers of polycarbonate
and we were able to show the way

00;52;12;01 - 00;52;18;07
that security fibers are embedded within
that particular in the polycarbonate last.

00;52;18;07 - 00;52;21;07
So, whereas when you just have
a two-dimensional image,

00;52;21;08 - 00;52;25;08
you would just see the fiber repairing,
We were now able to show

00;52;25;08 - 00;52;28;08
where it actually appears
in the third dimension as well.

00;52;28;10 - 00;52;32;18
So, people have looked into other ways
of getting

00;52;33;01 - 00;52;36;21
three-dimensional information
from question documents.

00;52;36;21 - 00;52;37;16
But I would say that

00;52;37;16 - 00;52;42;09
this is probably the first bit of work
that's really allowed it to be accessible,

00;52;42;26 - 00;52;47;08
quantifiable and actually put into context
with optical measurements,

00;52;47;17 - 00;52;52;03
meeting up with quantifiable measurements
on the other side as well.

00;52;52;18 - 00;52;55;00
Yeah, I know working in other areas,
for example,

00;52;55;00 - 00;52;58;21
we have a project going on
where we have some interns

00;52;58;21 - 00;53;03;00
looking at footwear impressions
like in the sand, sand or whatever.

00;53;03;07 - 00;53;06;04
And so, the documentation part
is usually the easy part,

00;53;06;04 - 00;53;09;14
so, you can scan it in different methods
and use whatever.

00;53;09;22 - 00;53;11;18
But then the analysis part
is the tricky part

00;53;11;18 - 00;53;15;07
and trying to find the right analysis
method to give you the correct answer

00;53;15;12 - 00;53;18;29
is often difficult, and there's often
a lot of problems with distortion and

00;53;19;04 - 00;53;22;10
and different things,
especially in the case of like a shoe

00;53;22;10 - 00;53;25;29
where the shoe can flex
and then the impression can bend.

00;53;25;29 - 00;53;28;05
And so, you have these distortions
we have to compare.

00;53;29;10 - 00;53;30;19
Like the profiling.

00;53;30;19 - 00;53;34;15
This is something that has been used
for that particular application,

00;53;34;15 - 00;53;35;26
but it's also been tried out.

00;53;35;26 - 00;53;38;26
And I think we reference a paper
or a couple of papers

00;53;39;06 - 00;53;43;28
in this where they've used 3D
laser profilers.

00;53;43;28 - 00;53;48;15
But again, it's more about the
you know, we want to

00;53;48;26 - 00;53;54;02
I think one of the things we're quite
mindful of first frame and is developing

00;53;54;24 - 00;53;58;07
technologies
that not only solve a problem but

00;53;58;24 - 00;54;01;26
actually, are able to be implemented

00;54;02;03 - 00;54;05;13
within solutions
that people are already used to using.

00;54;05;13 - 00;54;08;13
Because when you have that natural

00;54;08;15 - 00;54;12;24
kind of workflow to add an extra tool into
it is so much easier than having

00;54;12;24 - 00;54;18;10
a standalone system that perhaps does
one or two particular things.

00;54;18;10 - 00;54;21;10
It's not going to get the use
that something like a Vasey.

00;54;21;10 - 00;54;22;26
Well, now obviously there's

00;54;22;26 - 00;54;25;19
this commercial trade offs
that need to be made because, you know,

00;54;25;19 - 00;54;29;00
the more you put into something,
obviously the higher the price

00;54;29;13 - 00;54;32;01
of those of the particular
components are.

00;54;32;01 - 00;54;36;04
But also, the complexity goes up
significantly.

00;54;36;11 - 00;54;40;19
So, you know, there are always trade offs
that need to be made.

00;54;40;19 - 00;54;42;22
But for the most part, that's

00;54;42;22 - 00;54;45;27
kind of what we're trying to achieve with
with all elements of research that we do.

00;54;45;27 - 00;54;49;02
But I think the fact that we are doing
the research,

00;54;49;03 - 00;54;53;04
we're more than open
to engaging with collaborations.

00;54;54;06 - 00;54;56;12
I mentioned
about the work with University of Kent,

00;54;56;12 - 00;54;59;18
we couldn't have done that work
because we didn't have an AI system,

00;54;59;25 - 00;55;04;27
but we had the idea to use that particular
technology for a particular challenge.

00;55;05;08 - 00;55;09;16
So, we enjoy kind of embarking
on those kind of voyages

00;55;09;16 - 00;55;13;27
and it's really important for us
to publish the work that we do because not

00;55;13;27 - 00;55;16;27
just for the, you know, for the people
that are involved in the work.

00;55;17;08 - 00;55;19;15
And ultimately when you're a researcher

00;55;19;15 - 00;55;22;19
publishing papers,
I pay you all that sort of stuff.

00;55;22;20 - 00;55;25;26
That is, you know, that's
kind of the feathers in the caps that you

00;55;25;29 - 00;55;27;19
that you like to wear.

00;55;27;19 - 00;55;31;08
But it helps us in terms of,
I guess, our credibility.

00;55;31;08 - 00;55;36;04
It helps us to support the products and
support some of the applications that we,

00;55;36;14 - 00;55;41;00
I guess, as a commercial organization
say that that they can actually perform.

00;55;41;11 - 00;55;43;04
And I think that's really important.

00;55;43;04 - 00;55;47;00
It's something
that, you know, I would say

00;55;48;09 - 00;55;49;05
to help

00;55;49;05 - 00;55;54;17
people in terms of their business case
decision as to in an environment

00;55;54;17 - 00;55;58;19
where validating equipment,
validating techniques, validating

00;55;58;19 - 00;56;03;13
processes are absolutely front and center,
being able to leverage things like this.

00;56;03;13 - 00;56;06;09
This research has been done
can only be a positive step.

00;56;06;09 - 00;56;09;09
So, it kind of I guess it
I guess it benefits everyone, really.

00;56;10;06 - 00;56;10;18
It does.

00;56;10;18 - 00;56;12;20
I mean, it obviously,
I think this is great

00;56;12;20 - 00;56;16;15
because it just embarks in a new area
in in document analysis,

00;56;16;15 - 00;56;18;19
and it opens the door to other things.

00;56;18;19 - 00;56;21;06
And, you know, you've talked about future
work here, right in the paper, right.

00;56;21;06 - 00;56;22;24
So, you're talking about the

00;56;22;24 - 00;56;25;19
interference of stroke direction
of the crossing intersection.

00;56;25;19 - 00;56;27;13
So, what would you like to see happen
there?

00;56;27;13 - 00;56;29;02
Like what kind of studies
are you thinking about there?

00;56;32;02 - 00;56;32;24
Loads of things.

00;56;32;24 - 00;56;37;10
I mean, we we've got an idea
that there is just so many different

00;56;37;10 - 00;56;40;23
different pen
types, different paper types.

00;56;41;07 - 00;56;44;17
When you have different inks as well,
then you have different

00;56;44;17 - 00;56;46;07
optical properties
of those particular ink.

00;56;46;07 - 00;56;49;14
So, does that change the ability

00;56;49;14 - 00;56;52;14
of one particular process the other?

00;56;52;17 - 00;56;54;09
We we've also

00;56;54;09 - 00;56;58;07
kind of thought about things
where you've got stamps, for example,

00;56;58;07 - 00;57;01;28
like passport stamps when they're above
or below different inks,

00;57;02;09 - 00;57;05;12
then that all comes
into comes into the equation.

00;57;05;12 - 00;57;07;17
But I think
one of the one of the key things

00;57;07;17 - 00;57;11;02
in this piece of work is, you know, it's
a pilot study, It's a proof of concept.

00;57;11;02 - 00;57;14;07
There are lots of pilot studies
and proof of concept

00;57;14;26 - 00;57;16;07
publications that are out there.

00;57;16;07 - 00;57;17;13
And one of the things that

00;57;18;13 - 00;57;19;03
I guess is a

00;57;19;03 - 00;57;22;03
frustration not just for me,
but pretty much everybody

00;57;22;09 - 00;57;24;28
I guess, works in the research
environment,

00;57;24;28 - 00;57;29;20
is that it's going from that proof
of concept to exploitation.

00;57;29;20 - 00;57;32;07
And that's the big
that's the big jump that needs to happen.

00;57;32;07 - 00;57;34;10
So, there are some things
that we talk about here in the future

00;57;34;10 - 00;57;37;06
whereby we want to try and do double
blind studies.

00;57;37;06 - 00;57;39;21
We want to try and have a wider
range of donors.

00;57;39;21 - 00;57;43;26
We want to try out on age samples
because naturally

00;57;44;14 - 00;57;47;19
things like that will have an effect
on the plumpness of the fibers in the

00;57;47;19 - 00;57;48;19
in the particular document.

00;57;48;19 - 00;57;50;21
So, there's a whole range of things

00;57;50;21 - 00;57;53;21
and we are just scratching the surface
with this.

00;57;53;24 - 00;57;58;13
But it's
an absolutely crucial step

00;57;58;13 - 00;58;02;16
in the right direction for us to,
I guess, to really develop things

00;58;03;07 - 00;58;06;24
further as I guess the market requires it
to do so.

00;58;07;07 - 00;58;07;14
Yeah.

00;58;07;14 - 00;58;09;25
And I'm curious about because you say that

00;58;09;25 - 00;58;13;26
the 8000 is semi quantitative,
but you do get measurements from it.

00;58;14;12 - 00;58;16;05
Yep. Yep.
You can get measurements from it.

00;58;16;05 - 00;58;21;11
We can,
we can do sort of measurements on the x, Y

00;58;22;18 - 00;58;22;26
and Z.

00;58;22;26 - 00;58;25;01
We can calibrate in that respect.

00;58;25;01 - 00;58;27;08
We have a

00;58;27;08 - 00;58;28;20
spectrophotometer in there as well.

00;58;28;20 - 00;58;30;18
So, we can do

00;58;30;18 - 00;58;33;21
measurements of absorption
reflectance as well.

00;58;34;15 - 00;58;39;16
It's the semi quantification
is to do with C

00;58;39;16 - 00;58;43;02
with the Z axis in terms
of getting that depth measurement.

00;58;43;16 - 00;58;46;06
And that's where we, you know, that's

00;58;46;06 - 00;58;49;06
why we, we use the gel site to generate

00;58;49;28 - 00;58;51;23
compare or. Yeah, Okay, great.

00;58;51;23 - 00;58;52;03
Yeah.

00;58;52;03 - 00;58;55;18
So, I think it's a wonderful area
and I always thought that there was

00;58;55;26 - 00;59;00;13
definitely some utility in 3D
technologies in this particular area.

00;59;00;21 - 00;59;04;21
But as I always said, I know
I usually know where the difficulty is

00;59;04;21 - 00;59;06;00
and that is trying to offer sort

00;59;06;00 - 00;59;09;01
of trying to find the correct technique
and exploring.

00;59;09;01 - 00;59;11;07
Now all these different areas
that you mentioned. Right?

00;59;11;07 - 00;59;13;13
That's going to take quite a bit of work,

00;59;13;13 - 00;59;15;09
you know, the blind testing
and everything else.

00;59;15;09 - 00;59;18;28
But now do you do you partner at all
with universities

00;59;18;28 - 00;59;23;04
and other institutions
like to do research and things like that?

00;59;23;19 - 00;59;24;16
Do people come to you?

00;59;24;16 - 00;59;27;28
Sometimes we try to get involved
as much as possible.

00;59;27;28 - 00;59;30;28
We have a
we have a project on at the minute with a

00;59;30;29 - 00;59;34;25
with the university
not too far from us

00;59;36;29 - 00;59;37;27
and that

00;59;37;27 - 00;59;40;22
loosely we're
likely to create an examination actually.

00;59;40;22 - 00;59;43;22
But we have relationships with probably

00;59;43;29 - 00;59;46;29
another half dozen universities in the UK

00;59;47;06 - 00;59;48;00
police forces.

00;59;48;00 - 00;59;51;00
We try and engage in some research
projects where possible as well.

00;59;51;16 - 00;59;55;00
You know, we appreciate
and we respect that there needs to be

00;59;55;07 - 00;59;58;17
impartiality, see,
and certainly, from the public sector.

00;59;59;01 - 01;00;01;25
And that's one of the reasons
why we like to publish what we do,

01;00;01;25 - 01;00;04;24
because the whole point of publishing work
is that it's transparent,

01;00;05;09 - 01;00;08;06
it is impartial, it is peer reviewed,

01;00;08;06 - 01;00;10;18
and it's for the benefit of the
of the wider community.

01;00;10;18 - 01;00;11;29
So, yeah, absolutely.

01;00;11;29 - 01;00;15;29
We relish the opportunity
to work with

01;00;15;29 - 01;00;21;05
with the PIs and, and kind of harness
some of the some of their skills

01;00;21;13 - 01;00;26;14
to along with us and kind of
collectively move things forward.

01;00;27;20 - 01;00;30;00
So yeah, I'm more than happy to

01;00;30;00 - 01;00;33;08
to hear from anyone
that has as any suggestions.

01;00;34;08 - 01;00;36;15
Just one question
you actually from Rentokil I'm

01;00;36;15 - 01;00;39;17
I do he's asking about product support
and maintenance repair.

01;00;39;17 - 01;00;43;07
Can you talk based on that and
I think he means for Foster and Freeman

01;00;43;13 - 01;00;45;12
not for gel so.

01;00;45;12 - 01;00;49;07
Yeah, I can
yeah, I mean we, we support our products

01;00;50;07 - 01;00;52;05
basically, as long as long as we can.

01;00;52;05 - 01;00;55;24
I mean we're like,
like many other manufacturers, we,

01;00;56;12 - 01;00;58;10
we have a product roadmap.

01;00;58;10 - 01;01;01;14
We can, we can support products
that are out in sales

01;01;01;28 - 01;01;03;04
as long as we can get that,

01;01;03;04 - 01;01;05;28
you know, the parts that are required
and what have you.

01;01;05;28 - 01;01;08;27
But fundamentally,
I think one of the things that we're

01;01;08;27 - 01;01;11;27
well known for
is that that robustness of product

01;01;12;17 - 01;01;14;24
and also, our customer support

01;01;14;24 - 01;01;18;02
in terms of our product training
and our applications training.

01;01;18;02 - 01;01;21;05
So generally speaking,
when we when we supply a product,

01;01;21;05 - 01;01;25;04
we offer training along with that
and we will have one of our applications

01;01;25;04 - 01;01;28;06
specialists who are, as the name suggests,
they are specializing

01;01;28;14 - 01;01;30;04
in that particular product application.

01;01;30;04 - 01;01;34;15
They will travel out to customer sites
and do one on one training group training.

01;01;34;15 - 01;01;35;25
We've obviously now started doing the

01;01;36;26 - 01;01;37;10
online

01;01;37;10 - 01;01;40;22
training so we can do a hybrid
kind of training program as well.

01;01;40;22 - 01;01;43;25
We're in the process
of developing new learning platforms as

01;01;45;02 - 01;01;48;01
which I think
is another really, really important tool.

01;01;48;01 - 01;01;51;21
People want to be able
to have data, information,

01;01;51;21 - 01;01;54;09
all of that sort of stuff available
when they need it

01;01;54;09 - 01;01;57;09
rather than on a schedule
that suits everyone.

01;01;57;09 - 01;01;59;24
So having an e-learning platform
is really important for us as well.

01;01;59;24 - 01;02;03;01
So that's there's a huge amount of work
that's gone into developing that.

01;02;03;01 - 01;02;06;01
So yeah, you know,

01;02;06;21 - 01;02;09;04
is, is very good I would say that.

01;02;09;04 - 01;02;14;24
But what it is, it genuinely is and yeah,
we have a distribution network now.

01;02;14;24 - 01;02;19;01
We supply products into over 140 countries
worldwide.

01;02;19;07 - 01;02;24;26
And you know, the UK is probably
about 5 to 8% of what we do

01;02;26;07 - 01;02;28;03
America, North America, Canada.

01;02;28;03 - 01;02;30;25
It's a huge market for us.

01;02;30;25 - 01;02;32;17
Yeah, we have distribution partners,

01;02;32;17 - 01;02;35;17
we have a head office in the UK.

01;02;35;22 - 01;02;40;12
We also have a facility in in Virginia,
in the United States.

01;02;40;12 - 01;02;42;20
They've been there for about 20 years now.

01;02;42;20 - 01;02;45;09
We have a new office in, say, new.

01;02;45;09 - 01;02;47;22
It's about three
or four years old in Germany.

01;02;47;22 - 01;02;52;02
We have a more recent office
that we opened in the Netherlands as well

01;02;52;02 - 01;02;53;29
so, we're starting to branch out

01;02;53;29 - 01;02;56;03
a little bit
in terms of our physical presence.

01;02;56;03 - 01;02;59;17
But we generally have a distribution
network all around the world.

01;03;00;26 - 01;03;01;26
If I want to.

01;03;01;26 - 01;03;04;01
I'm just putting up the website here.

01;03;04;01 - 01;03;06;27
But if anyone goes to Foster from Incom,

01;03;06;27 - 01;03;08;17
you'll see that
there's a contact area there.

01;03;08;17 - 01;03;09;26
So, if anyone,

01;03;09;26 - 01;03;11;25
somebody wants to get a hold of you
or something like that,

01;03;11;25 - 01;03;13;23
that's one way
I guess through the website.

01;03;13;23 - 01;03;15;04
Sure. Yeah, absolutely.

01;03;15;04 - 01;03;18;24
And also, I've got to ask you about this
before, but Roberto is also on LinkedIn.

01;03;18;24 - 01;03;20;00
He's he posts every now and then.

01;03;20;00 - 01;03;23;13
In fact, that's how I saw the paper
that that you had posted earlier.

01;03;23;21 - 01;03;26;14
So, you can always reach
out to him there as well.

01;03;27;15 - 01;03;29;18
ROMERO Look, we're getting on in time.

01;03;29;18 - 01;03;30;22
I want to say thank you so much.

01;03;30;22 - 01;03;34;01
I think it's really exciting research
embarking in these new areas.

01;03;34;01 - 01;03;35;27
And I know there's always a lot of work
to do.

01;03;35;27 - 01;03;40;05
Sometimes it's overwhelming, but hopefully
you get some help from other people.

01;03;40;07 - 01;03;41;26
These is fair to say.

01;03;41;26 - 01;03;43;08
We're never short of ideas.

01;03;43;08 - 01;03;46;19
A side scan again,
that's always a challenge.

01;03;47;08 - 01;03;47;29
Yeah, for sure.

01;03;47;29 - 01;03;48;18
It's great.

01;03;48;18 - 01;03;51;01
Eugene Honestly,
I really appreciate the opportunity talk

01;03;51;01 - 01;03;54;13
and thanks for everyone for,
for dialing in

01;03;54;13 - 01;03;58;02
and positive comments I can see
coming in in the comments section.

01;03;58;02 - 01;03;59;22
Is yeah,
definitely people from all over the place.

01;03;59;22 - 01;04;03;11
We got Romania, we've got Turkey,
we've got Argentina,

01;04;03;11 - 01;04;04;29
we've got the United States,
we got Canada.

01;04;04;29 - 01;04;07;06
So, it's going viral. You are just.

01;04;08;21 - 01;04;09;17
Hey, we're global.

01;04;09;17 - 01;04;11;12
We go global here, so it's all good.

01;04;11;12 - 01;04;13;16
Hey, listen, do me a favor.
Hang back and I'll come.

01;04;13;16 - 01;04;15;01
Come chat with you just a bit.

01;04;15;01 - 01;04;16;21
No, I was already just.

01;04;16;21 - 01;04;17;21
Yeah. Thanks, everyone.

01;04;17;21 - 01;04;20;14
I want to wish you all the best
and have a happy Thursday. Bye.