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Hey everybody, it's Eugene here.

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And welcome to forensics talks.

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This is episode ninety and 
September is absolutely flying by,

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and I always feel like September
is where the pedal goes to the metal,

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and things are really picking up
and moving fast.

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So anyway,
hopefully you're all doing well.

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And here we go.

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So, our guest today,
as you probably saw, is Stephen Jameson.

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Now, Steve is a native of Charleston,
South Carolina.

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He graduated from Roger Williams
University in 1999

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with a Bachelor of Science
in Industrial Technology.

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he started his career in the U.S. Navy.

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And his operational assignments
have included

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a full range of duties
in the US Naval Special Warfare community.

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He graduated basic Underwater
demolition school in September 1988

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and spent 11 years on active duty.

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During his last years on active duty,
Steve attended school at Roger Williams

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University in Bristol, Rhode Island,
and on the side became a certified

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or he became certified
as a commercial hardhat diver

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after receiving his undergrad,

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Steve entered into service
with the CIA director of operations,

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and he subsequently left the CIA after 911
and became a government contractor

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assisting the US government

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on sensitive projects and missions
for the next ten years.

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In September of 2009,
he was affiliated with the US Navy

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through the Navy Reserves
and was assigned to SEAL Team 18,

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where he presently serves
and is currently a Chief Warrant officer.

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Steve entered into duty with the FBI
under the Critical Incident

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Response Group as a crisis management
specialist and special

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mission planner for the Counter
Improvised Explosive Device Section

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National Asset Response
Unit in September of 2010.

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And after four years of training,
teaching and running exercises,

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Steve's move over to the lab division,
where he now sits as the supervisor

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over the Technical Design
and Documentation program

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under the Operational Projects Unit,
and he's the OPA operational coordinator.

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So, lots to talk about with Steve.

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Let me bring him in here.

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yeah, lots of stuff going on there.

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Steve Lots of stuff for sure.

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But hey man, thanks.
Thanks for being here.

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And yeah, I appreciate the,
you know, the opportunity to talk to you.

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And also, I want to say thank you to Tracy
for making this happen too, because

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Yeah. Awesome.

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Let's see,
we I'm just trying to think back.

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We I believe the first time
we actually met face to face,

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it would have been probably the in
was it in Atlanta at the IFC in.

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I'm not sure.

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Oh, maybe it was Nashville.

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Okay.

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I remember going
I remember going to dinner someplace

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and I remember there's a whole group of us
going to dinner,

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and I think we sat beside each other
and we chatted away for a bit.

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So maybe it was Nashville.

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Yeah. At the International Association

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of Forensic
and Security Metrology Conference.

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That's a mouthful as well. Yeah.

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So, I want
to go back and talk about some of,

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you know, the intro here
and just ask you about your background.

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And I mean, you you're from Charleston,
but you started

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your career in the US Navy.

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And so, I was just wondering, were you

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were you always sort of had the desire

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to be in the Navy, the military?

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You know, what was sort of your

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outlook when you were younger?

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Yeah, but you

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I want to ask you also about the
the Roger Williams University,

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because you became a hardhat diver
kind of on the side.

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So, what is that about?

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And I was this
is this all on the East coast

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It was like all over the place where.

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It was all East Coast.

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It was all up in the New England area.
Yeah.

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Doing ship
inspections and bridge inspections.

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But while I was doing
that, I'd always have we'd always have

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conversations, we'd have cameras on our
heads, we'd have full communications.

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But we were always having briefs
before we went in the water.

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And after we came out of the water,
if it were working on a bridge

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or if we're working on a rail system
for a dry dock system,

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we'd talk to the engineers,
the top side.

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So, for after a while, I started realizing
they really need to see

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because the water's murky
and up in the New England area.

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So even with a camera, it's hard
for them to see what we're doing.

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We do most everything by feeling.

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So, I started

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creating 3D renderings
of what I was doing underwater,

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believe it or not, by using Excel,
and I really enjoyed doing that.

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Yeah,
to create those 3D renderings in Excel.

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And my brother taught me that
because he was so smart, he was the NUC

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and how to use Photoshop and how to use
Excel to create this 3D rendering.

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So that's when I really kind of started.

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And then we got into using sonar
and other types of imaging underwater.

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So, sector scan sites,

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side sonar scanning, things like that.

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And that's
when I really piqued my interest about,

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hey, we can image things
when we can't even see them.

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So, I've got to talk to you
about some things after I had no idea.

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I didn't know that you were doing
all the side sense side scan

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sonar and stuff like that.

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I've seen some really cool stuff

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where people have found, you know,
vehicles in rivers and things like that.

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So, yeah, after talking to
you about that another time,

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what can you tell

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me about your time with the CIA?

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CIA you spent ten years there

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I mean, what can you tell me about
maybe some of your duties

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and things like that,
what you're responsible for,

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if anything, and also, I just want to ask,
like you said after 911, you left.

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And I'm just wondering if you had like
looking for other opportunities or

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what was the move like?

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Okay.

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You said like a lot of your friends,
and that was

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due to a lot of people
from the military often move over or shift

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over like CIA and do work with the CIA
and that sort of thing. Yes.

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Okay.

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So, I want to ask you about
your current roles and responsibility.

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Now. You are under the Operations Projects
Unit, so I want to ask you about that.

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So, what is the CPU
and what are some of its responsibilities?

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What is it that they do or take care of?

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Okay.

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I got a lot of questions for you
because there's a lot of stuff there.

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So first off was the CPU.

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I mean, I imagine I'm thinking back to way

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back in the day,
you know, 5060s or whatever,

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the FBI must have been creating,
you know, physical

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reconstructions of scenes or whether
it was for JFK or something like that.

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Right. So was Apu.

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Is Apu old like it's been around
a long time or is it a more recent thing?

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Yeah, I can.

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I can see the benefit of physical models,
even just, you know, some kind of device

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or whatever that gets recreated.

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And, you know, a prosecutor
has it at trial.

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He's holding it in his hands.

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You know, there's even
I have a sample back here of like a

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a person, a scan of a person's finger
with the fingerprints.

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You can see the rich details
and things like that.

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And, you know,
if you give something like that

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to somebody to hold in their hands,
just the memory,

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the retention and the learning,
I think there's it's just different.

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You know, some people,

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when they touch something, they remember
it better and just differently.

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So, I think that has a lot of benefit.

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So, your team, when

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I'm trying to I'm trying to understand
how you guys get called out,

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how your team gets called out
so, something happens

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and who makes the call to say, Hey,
we got to get somebody from Steve's team

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or multiple people from Steve's team
out on the road here?

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How does that flow work typically?

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Right?

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Right. Okay.

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And like,
the way you're like, in terms of training

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and that sort of thing,
because you guys are handling

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so many different types of potential cases
and different types of scenarios.

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Do you have people on your team
that sort of

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I'm sure they are cross-trained
on a lot of different things,

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but do you have do
they specialize as well in certain areas?

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So, some people take
the lead in certain things.

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Right, right.

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So, I guess a couple of things to mention.

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And one is that actually
your team is looking for someone.

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I was going to mention this later,
but let's bring it up.

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We're talking about training and team,

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but maybe you want to say something
about that now.

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I don't know

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there you go, folks.

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Forensics talks is now a human resource
show, too.

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There you go.

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All right. Okay.
Let's talk about scene documentation.

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We were kind of
we were kind of touching on it.

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Whatever.

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What kinds of options

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do you have in terms of technology
for mapping scenes?

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Because I know you guys

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well, I guess you can get
some of the smaller scenes,

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but I imagine when you get called,
you know,

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when it's like bullet trajectories or
something, it's not three or four shots.

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It could be 50, 60
or maybe even thousands.

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I don't know.

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No, no, no.

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I was just going to ask about the,

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you know, your choice
of how you approach the scene as well.

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So, you get an overview of what's going on.

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And I mean, I know you guys have all kinds
of different equipment at your disposal,

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so, I'm just curious about how you choose

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who is going to use what.

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I mean, do
you always use a mix of this stuff

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when you're on scene,
or do you all, you know,

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try to use all the same piece of equipment
or something like that?

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You know, how do you
how do you divide a large scene?

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Okay.

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I know for a while

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you were using the total station
for bullet trajectory documentation.

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Do you still do that or is it laser
scanners at a mix of things?

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Okay, got it.

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Let me.

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I just want to make sure

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because I got a lot of questions,
but let me move on to the multimedia

00;28;58;18 - 00;29;02;19
art and design section
you mentioned before about the friends

00;29;02;24 - 00;29;07;26
forensic facial imaging and doing sketches
and things like that.

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So is there like a dedicated team
of people who are specialized in that, or

00;29;12;26 - 00;30;28;24
are you also somebody that works
on the facial imaging?

00;30;28;27 - 00;30;30;08
And you said that,

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you know, for example,
if you do find like a skull or something

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like that, you'll scan it, you'll produce
like a 3D model

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of a 3D print of it,
and then people will, will work on it.

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Right?

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So, you obviously
you must have a fantastic facility

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for like 3D printing
and that sort of thing.

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You have you have a lot of different
types of machines at your disposal.

00;32;27;23 - 00;32;28;00
the you

00;32;28;00 - 00;32;31;22
mentioned the like showing people
like their village and, you know,

00;32;31;25 - 00;32;33;09
if it was in Rwanda
or something like that.

00;32;33;09 - 00;32;35;12
So, you get terrain and you put you
you dress it up

00;32;35;12 - 00;32;37;20
with like little trees
and stuff like that.

00;32;37;20 - 00;32;41;05
Do you do things
like reconstruct models of weapons or,

00;32;41;07 - 00;34;14;21
you know, improvised devices
and things like this?

00;34;14;23 - 00;34;15;11
That's interesting.

00;34;15;11 - 00;34;19;27
So, you'll actually run tests
so, you'll like the derailment

00;34;19;27 - 00;34;20;08
or whatever.

00;34;20;08 - 00;34;21;15
You'll actually try to recreate

00;34;21;15 - 00;34;24;16
or try to create something like that too,
which is kind of interesting.

00;34;24;16 - 00;34;25;21
It's not just a demonstrative.

00;34;25;21 - 00;35;05;25
It's actually
you're running some testing as well.

00;35;05;27 - 00;35;06;20
I want to ask you

00;35;06;20 - 00;35;12;22
about photography and the importance
of photography in your group, because you

00;35;12;22 - 00;35;17;07
know, people are still taking photographs
and I mean, photographs are on drones.

00;35;17;07 - 00;35;21;10
Photographs can be used
for reconstructing things with,

00;35;21;12 - 00;35;24;25
you know, photogrammetry packages
and things like that. So

00;35;24;27 - 00;35;25;15
what can you tell me

00;35;25;15 - 00;35;28;15
about the group
that handles the photography,

00;35;28;15 - 00;36;53;08
what you're doing with photography
and what the program is like there.

00;36;53;11 - 00;36;55;15
Yeah, you said the old DSLR.

00;36;55;15 - 00;36;57;28
It's like,
Oh my God, dinosaurs are old already.

00;36;57;28 - 00;36;59;15
And you're right, you're right.

00;36;59;15 - 00;37;02;13
Mirrorless
coming out all these 360 cameras.

00;37;02;13 - 00;37;04;17
There's so much more to photography

00;37;04;17 - 00;37;09;14
and I've seen some presentations
actually, from people at the FBI.

00;37;09;16 - 00;37;14;08
Tony who did
I think it was the Aurora theater shooting

00;37;14;10 - 00;37;17;06
and he showed me some amazing images of,
you know,

00;37;17;06 - 00;37;20;13
these bullet trajectories
and how he was able to capture them.

00;37;20;15 - 00;37;22;27
So, I thought it was like super
some really very

00;37;22;27 - 00;37;25;26
professional work and documentation. So.

00;37;26;03 - 00;38;14;27
So, you're working alongside these people
sometimes, right?

00;38;14;29 - 00;38;15;13
How has

00;38;15;13 - 00;38;20;19
how has technology impacted your group
over the time that you've been there?

00;38;20;19 - 00;38;24;16
I mean, has it
you know, the last you know, well,

00;38;24;20 - 00;38;25;25
I guess it would have been
When did you start?

00;38;25;25 - 00;38;28;25
2014. Ten, 14.

00;38;29;02 - 00;38;31;03
Thought you were getting off the. Yeah.

00;38;31;03 - 00;38;32;29
And so, there's, you know,
almost ten years.

00;38;32;29 - 00;38;35;29
And so, I mean, have seen a big shift
in the technology.

00;38;35;29 - 00;38;38;29
Do you feel like it's more rapid
now than it was before?

00;38;39;05 - 00;40;58;15
What are your thoughts on that?

00;40;58;17 - 00;40;59;07
So is your

00;40;59;07 - 00;41;03;09
team also responsible for like researching
new technologies, testing

00;41;03;09 - 00;41;06;18
new technologies,
putting them into, you know, validation

00;41;06;18 - 00;41;48;06
studies as well?

00;41;48;08 - 00;41;49;27
I wanted to ask you about,

00;41;49;27 - 00;41;52;19
you know, managing cases
and working on these cases,

00;41;52;19 - 00;41;57;15
because some of them are fairly large,
some of them are

00;41;57;18 - 00;41;58;17
tragic. Right.

00;41;58;17 - 00;42;01;28
There's a lot of, you know, loss of life
and things like that.

00;42;02;01 - 00;42;06;05
And so, you know, obviously,
you and your team, you know, maybe

00;42;06;08 - 00;42;09;25
to certain things
that are not always the most pleasant.

00;42;09;27 - 00;42;14;05
So, and this topic has come up
a lot before, but I'm just wondering how,

00;42;14;08 - 00;42;17;12
you know, how you guys manage the stress

00;42;17;12 - 00;42;21;18
or the impact of some of these scenes and,
you know, do you

00;42;21;25 - 00;42;26;06
is it the team itself that's,
you know, often very open and close.

00;42;26;08 - 00;42;29;08
I've seen a lot of places
where, for example, humor plays a big part

00;42;29;08 - 00;42;31;06
in, you know,
just sort of relieving some stress.

00;42;31;06 - 00;42;31;26
But, you know,

00;42;31;26 - 00;42;36;18
just that the whole stress of
of working in these kinds of conditions

00;42;36;20 - 00;44;18;13
and how you manage all of that.

00;44;18;16 - 00;44;19;25
Yeah.

00;44;19;25 - 00;44;22;20
Now, do you also do
work, for example, overseas?

00;44;22;20 - 00;44;24;14
Because there could be incidents
that happen

00;44;24;14 - 00;44;26;22
that may be related overseas
or internationally.

00;44;26;22 - 00;44;44;01
Is that something that your group
has to handle as well?

00;44;44;04 - 00;44;46;07
Yeah, some different things.

00;44;46;07 - 00;44;49;02
So, in some of the scenes

00;44;49;02 - 00;44;52;20
that you've been working, I'm curious,
but I'm being careful

00;44;52;20 - 00;44;55;23
not to ask like really specifics,
but I'd like to know what maybe

00;44;55;23 - 00;45;01;22
some of the things that you've learned
or some of the things that

00;45;01;24 - 00;45;05;17
you've seen that your work brings value,
like how your work brings value,

00;45;05;17 - 00;45;07;13
or you're always
maybe surprised about something

00;45;07;13 - 00;45;10;26
when you document that, or maybe you
you figure something out or you realize

00;45;10;26 - 00;45;14;26
something was visible
or present that it wasn't before.

00;45;14;26 - 00;45;17;05
Like, have you had
any of those moments are like then, Like,

00;45;17;05 - 00;47;33;06
that's, that's
pretty cool that we were able to do that.

00;47;33;08 - 00;47;35;29
have you guys experimented
or are you looking at implementing

00;47;35;29 - 00;47;39;25
or maybe you already have, but
you know, the whole virtual reality thing,

00;47;39;25 - 00;47;43;10
I mean, is it a tool
that is currently in use?

00;47;43;10 - 00;47;46;27
Is there still some resistance to it
or is it no horses

00;47;46;27 - 00;48;54;09
out of the barn?

00;48;54;11 - 00;48;55;03
Yeah, for sure.

00;48;55;03 - 00;48;58;17
There’re still some challenges
there, especially with four

00;48;58;19 - 00;48;59;22
six degrees of freedom.

00;48;59;22 - 00;49;01;25
Virtual reality in a jury.

00;49;01;25 - 00;49;04;19
I can see all kinds of issues
actually, happening there.

00;49;04;19 - 00;49;07;12
But yeah, it's
but it's it is an interesting approach,

00;49;07;12 - 00;49;10;01
especially for like witness perspectives
and things like that.

00;49;10;01 - 00;49;14;05
The things that virtual reality can do
really well.

00;49;14;07 - 00;49;14;12
Yeah.

00;49;14;12 - 00;49;19;04
So hopefully we'll see some more of that
coming in the future.

00;49;19;06 - 00;49;21;05
One thing I saw when we

00;49;21;05 - 00;49;23;20
well, actually last time
we saw each other was in North Carolina,

00;49;23;20 - 00;49;28;26
but so, it was at the Acer conference
and it was interesting.

00;49;28;26 - 00;49;34;07
It's the first time I saw the FBI
giving out brochures and one of these

00;49;34;09 - 00;49;36;28
it was it for was it for hiring purposes?

00;49;36;28 - 00;49;42;07
But it was because you were trying to show
what it was that your team was doing

00;49;42;09 - 00;49;44;28
and the fact that your team

00;49;44;28 - 00;49;48;09
is available to other police agencies
when they need help and.

00;49;48;09 - 00;51;18;16
I thought you may want to talk about that.

00;51;18;18 - 00;51;20;08
Yeah, I was I was just

00;51;20;08 - 00;51;24;05
going to say I said the big
the big F word, it's free, right?

00;51;24;05 - 00;51;27;15
So, you know, there's several people
I know on here

00;51;27;15 - 00;51;31;20
that are from different police agencies
and you know, if you ever need help,

00;51;31;22 - 00;51;34;27
I think this is an incredible service
that you can call and get some assistance.

00;51;34;27 - 00;51;36;26
You know,
especially if you're a smaller agency

00;51;36;26 - 00;51;41;23
and you don't have all the resources
that, you know, Steve C team has.

00;51;42;01 - 00;51;43;28
So that's pretty awesome.

00;51;43;28 - 00;51;46;02
So, Steve,
so, what is next for you in the team?

00;51;46;02 - 00;51;46;10
Like?

00;51;46;10 - 00;51;49;09
Are you looking
to get into different areas?

00;51;49;09 - 00;51;53;15
Are you looking to do different things
in the in the near future?

00;51;53;15 - 00;51;54;01
You know what

00;51;54;01 - 00;51;56;26
what's what kinds of things
can you talk about with your team

00;51;56;26 - 00;54;59;02
and where you're headed
and where you're going?

00;54;59;05 - 00;55;01;06
yeah, how do you mentioned, you know,

00;55;01;06 - 00;55;04;17
testifying at trial and that's obviously
has to be part of your role, right?

00;55;04;17 - 00;55;54;29
Yeah, you got to get
you have to authenticate your work.

00;55;55;02 - 00;55;55;07
Yeah.

00;55;55;07 - 00;55;55;20
Sorry.

00;55;55;20 - 00;55;58;13
There's a question here from somebody,
and I won't bring it up

00;55;58;13 - 00;56;00;16
and I'll basically ask it,
But it has to do with, you know,

00;56;00;16 - 00;56;03;21
3-D replicas and 3D prints
and things like this.

00;56;03;27 - 00;56;06;21
And how do you how do you authenticate
something like that in court?

00;56;06;21 - 00;56;08;19
Have you had to authenticate, you know,

00;56;08;19 - 00;56;12;23
the model is accurate to a certain scale
or a smaller scale?

00;56;12;23 - 00;56;15;10
It's an accurate replica.

00;56;15;10 - 00;56;48;00
How do you typically explain
that at trial?

00;56;48;03 - 00;56;48;10
right?

00;56;48;10 - 00;56;50;06
Right. Yeah. And I get it.

00;56;50;06 - 00;56;52;18
Well, look, Steve,
we're going to get we're getting on here.

00;56;52;18 - 00;56;55;07
And again, I want to thank you very much.

00;56;55;07 - 00;56;57;27
If somebody wants to reach out
or somebody,

00;56;57;27 - 00;57;00;18
maybe he's interested in the position
or maybe somebody is interested

00;57;00;18 - 00;57;03;01
in, you know, they're like,
Hey, I'm calling Steve's team up

00;57;03;01 - 00;57;06;24
because I got some work for them,
you know, local PD or something.

00;57;06;26 - 00;57;21;00
What Is the best place to reach you at

00;57;21;03 - 00;57;22;05
Okay so if they

00;57;22;05 - 00;57;22;25
have an inquiry

00;57;22;25 - 00;57;25;23
or they want to submit a CV or something
like that, they can get a hold

00;57;25;23 - 00;57;28;19
you and I think you're on. Are you on
are you on LinkedIn as well?

00;57;28;19 - 00;57;30;29
I thought you were on LinkedIn.
I am. I am. I am on LinkedIn.

00;57;30;29 - 00;57;33;11
You okay so people can get a hold you
there as well.

00;57;33;11 - 00;57;37;27
Excellent.

00;57;38;00 - 00;57;38;21
Yeah, yeah.

00;57;38;21 - 00;57;41;03
It might be cryptic,
but you'll find them, right? Right.

00;57;41;03 - 00;57;42;00
So right on.

00;57;42;00 - 00;57;44;22
Well, listen, Steve, thank you so much.

00;57;44;22 - 00;57;46;02
Thank you to Erin.

00;57;46;02 - 00;57;46;26
Thanks to the team.

00;57;46;26 - 00;57;48;00
I wish you guys all the best.

00;57;48;00 - 00;57;50;14
I hope to see you sometime soon as well.

00;57;50;14 - 00;57;52;04
But I appreciate you being here today.

00;57;52;04 - 00;57;55;15
And yeah, like I said, we'll be in touch.

00;57;55;18 - 00;57;57;20
All right.
Thank you, Jane. I appreciate it.

00;57;57;20 - 00;57;58;26
All right. Cheers.

00;57;58;26 - 00;58;00;17
Okay, folks, that does it for this one.

00;58;00;17 - 00;58;01;15
Another forensics talks.

00;58;01;15 - 00;58;05;00
Some interesting work there
done by the FBI and their team

00;58;05;00 - 00;58;08;02
using a whole bunch of different
technologies and really cool stuff.

00;58;08;02 - 00;58;10;21
So, we are going to be back next week.

00;58;10;21 - 00;58;11;18
So, make sure you're here.

00;58;11;18 - 00;58;14;23
I'll be announcing that probably tomorrow
or putting something online.

00;58;14;23 - 00;58;16;12
So, you'll see

00;58;16;12 - 00;58;20;07
we'll be talking about gait analysis,
something I haven't discussed as well.

00;58;20;07 - 00;58;22;29
So, hey everybody, have a happy
Thursday. See you soon.

00;58;22;29 - 00;58;23;09
Bye bye.