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Hello, everyone.

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Happy Thursday and welcome
to another episode of Forensics Talks.

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This is going to be episode 91 and today
my guest is Nicholas Harris.

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Now, this is the getting into the nineties
here on the episodes

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and I just wanted to say that we're going
to be creeping up to the 100th episode

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sometime soon.

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And I've been thinking about trying
to do something special for that one.

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And so, I've got some ideas about maybe
like looking back at some best clips

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or some interviews
or maybe bringing some different people on

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for that hundredth episode.

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But I'm open to some ideas.

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So, if any of you have
any thoughts on that,

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I would really welcome you
to give your opinion on what you think

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you want to see on the 100th episode
as its just around the corner.

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So, let's get on with it here
and we'll get started.

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So, my guest today is Nicholas Harris,
and he was born and educated in England.

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He obtained a Bachelor of Science honors
degree in Pediatric

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medicine in 1995 from Salford University.

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Nick worked in private practice
as a podiatrist until 2002,

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and at that time, he emigrated to Canada
and a change of profession saw him

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join the ranks of policing with the Peel
Regional Police in 2003 and 2006.

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Nick joined the forensic Identification
Services with Peel Regional Police

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and he soon found that his previous
profession and education had applications

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in the forensic world
as it pertains to criminal investigations.

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Now, Nick has advanced training
in footwear impression examination.

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He's a qualified barefoot mythologist
and he's been deemed an expert witness

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in this field of study
within the Canadian court system.

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In fact, he's
now the only certified forensic analyst

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currently to be in Canada.

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He has been consulted as a forensic gate
analyst in over

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two dozen cases from multiple police
agencies throughout Canada.

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And he's actively involved in research
to help advance the field of forensic

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gait analysis.

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Now, this is a topic that I haven't

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approached before,
we haven't talked about, but I saw Nick's

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presentation at the Ontario Forensic Video
Analyst Association just this past year.

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I think it was in May.

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Maybe he'll correct me if I'm wrong,
but I thought it was really interesting.

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It was something that

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I'm not really exposed to a lot and
there are not a lot of people doing this.

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So, I think it's a great opportunity
to have him in here and let me bring

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him in right here.

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There it is.

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Hey, Nick, Correa and Eugene,
thanks for the intro.

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Well,
thank you so much for joining me.

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Yeah.

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Gate analysis is not something
that I can find a lot of people doing.

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Right. So, it's not a very common practice
just yet.

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Maybe
there'll be more people in the future.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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No, it's relatively new

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to a lot of people,
but it has been around for a while.

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Yeah, for sure.

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Let me ask you,

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I always start with the speakers
like background and stuff like that,

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cause
I'm always curious about, like, people's

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pathway, you know, and sort of journey
to where they currently are.

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So, university.

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So, before university you're looking

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were you already planning
on being a podiatrist?

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Ah, it's quite a story because

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as a kid

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growing up, I'm very sporty and, you know,
that's all I wanted to do.

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So, you know, you get to the age of
what is it you want to do?

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And I had no idea.

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My grandfather
was a professional soccer player

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and when he retired and forties,
the end of the forties,

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he went into physiotherapy
and chiropody podiatry.

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And then my father,

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he also went into podiatry.

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So, me, the eldest son, you know, go,
you know, what else can I do?

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And so, I went and podiatry,

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you know, watching my father practice,
it was all about pathologies at the feet,

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in the legs, you know, fixing people's
ingrown toenail and ruckus

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and all that lovely stuff.

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But when I got to university and realized
it was a lot more involved,

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and especially when the biomechanical
aspect came into it,

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my sporting
background, that really took off

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because I was quite
a, quite a decent cricket player.

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But then I had two knee injuries,
but both my,

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both my knees just for whatever reason,
there was no sudden dramatic injury.

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They just started to fail.

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And so, my cricket career was kind of
put on hold and off I went to university.

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But it was while I was there
that one of the instructors took me aside

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and did a biomechanical assessment on me
and found out that my feet were flat,

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really promoted a lot,
and that caused the misalignment.

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Further up my leg,
causing my knees to be painful.

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And he gave me orthotics
and the change was incredible.

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I became a fast runner,
stronger runner, was able to bowl

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faster than my cricket
and just improved on my sport overall.

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So, experiencing
that firsthand really gripped me.

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So, I was able to sort of

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take that into other realms
and I was finding ice hockey players.

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Skiers were all benefiting from orthotics

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in addressing biomechanical issues
that they had.

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So, taking that from university,

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once I
finished, I got into private practice.

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I then started working at the football
club, Soccer club.

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My grandfather played ball,
so, I was the podiatrist for the team

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and I was able to use the biomechanical
aspect to my career in private practice

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and then finally met my wife
and we came to Canada.

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He had Canadian citizenship, so,

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you know, I won't get into the whys
and what's the why

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Canada and my intention

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was to continue with podiatry,
but things didn't quite work out.

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The system is a little bit different here.

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It was in the UK and me
starting again in private practice

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in Canada with, you know, no money
and you're not able to get any finance

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or anything.

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It was going to be impossible
because I had to go back to England or

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make a change.

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And just so happened around that time.

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My wife's father, he used to work
for the Peel Regional Police.

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He came over to visit
and we went out one day

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and he introduced me to some of his
old colleagues who still work repeal

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one thing led to another, and I ended up
joining the police service 20 years later.

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And here I am.

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Yeah, it was.

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Yeah, I was just going to say
it's 20, 20 years now, 2023.

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So, I'm just curious though.

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So, when you did come to Canada,
it was probably I have a feeling

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that I know this happens
to a like other medical professionals,

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but they pretty much
have you start almost over again, right?

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You make re-education
and all that other stuff.

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So, it's a big it's a big investment
in time and effort and money.

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It was that part of the issue.

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Yeah, that was that was in part of it.

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There was a re qualification examination
that you go through.

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But in the UK, the National Health
Service, you can work as a podiatrist.

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But over here,

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the OC on the Health system,
they didn't have that.

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So was having to go into private practice
and you know,

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maybe I could have done my research
a little bit better.

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But it is what it is
and I have absolutely no regrets

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because it's led me to where I am today

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as a podiatrist.

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When you're working on people.

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And I think a lot of
I have a feeling that a lot of people

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that get into biomechanics
and all these kinds of things,

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a lot of them I think, are passionate
about sports and helping sports

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players get better, recover
and that sort of thing.

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But what is sort of the extent or scope of

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the parts of the body that you work on
and you specialize on?

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Because it's not just it's
not just the feet.

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There are other parts to the body
that affect, you know,

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how you're walking
and your gait and all that stuff. So

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how would you.

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Yeah,
like how would you describe the scope

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of what you do as a podiatrist to others?

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Yeah, well,
it depends on the issue you're having and

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it depends on what you're doing as well,
because you can be looking at it

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that somebody comes to you with

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pain.

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They have an injury.

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And why is that happening?

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Like in my case, with my knees,
it was because

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my feet were overly fragmented

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that was causing the lower leg
to rotate and works

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and that causes the knee to the track
out of place slightly.

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So, the kneecap was actually rubbing on the

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causing me in the men's pain.

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So, by supporting the arches of my feet,
straightened up limbs.

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So, we walk around, we walk on our feet,
we don't walk on our hands.

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So, everything comes from the feet, a body.

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So, somebody has hip problems, back
problems, neck problems, even shoulder

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problems.

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It could potentially
stem from the feet may not,

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but it's something that you would look at.

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So that's one aspect.

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You know, somebody who has pain,

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but then there's another aspect
where you can look at sports

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in general, people
who are trying to improve what they do.

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Now, when I was coming through university,
there was research with

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I can't remember a name,
but there was a well-known long jumper

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at the time
and they had her in the clinical setting.

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They were putting markers on the joints
to the body,

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video recording,
putting it through computer systems

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and was saying, if you do this, this
and this, you'll break the world record.

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Right?

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So, the mechanical systems,
the program was able to figure out that by

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doing this mechanically
and by helping them

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with those mechanics,
you can improve your sports performance.

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Doing it in
real life is completely different.

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It's a different animal
altogether, but in theory it's there. So,

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you know,

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biomechanics, it's the whole body
essentially, right?

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So, it's optimizing the person's
mechanics, their body for what they have

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and getting the most out of their system,
let's say.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I mean, I mentioned ice hockey players.

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I had an ice hockey player back in the UK
when he was turning.

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He was losing the edge of the skate
and we looked at it

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and he also had a flat foot
and just on the one side.

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And so, we did in some orthotics
and he actually,

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you know, became a much

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more efficient skater because he was now
getting that cutting edge on the blade

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and wasn't sliding out.

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And that was a mechanical issue.

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We had not helped him.

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So, you know, things like that
marathon runners, I did a lot of those.

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The times would come down because
they were more mechanically efficient.

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So yeah, it was interesting.

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Realm Yeah.

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When you decided to move
into forensic identification.

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So that was 2006, I believe.

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Did you already have it in mind
that, hey,

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I want to get back into this or I want to,
you know, I want to use this?

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Or did you just when you got in,
did you see an opportunity and say, hey,

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you know what, this is an area
I think I can use my current skills with.

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We're thinking about it beforehand.

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No, no.

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So, I was always been fascinated
by the whole forensic world, and that's

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where I always wanted to be in policing
and just loved everything about it.

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It wasn't until I got into the forensic
area that I sort of thought, hang on,

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my old profession
may have some application in here.

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And it didn't happen straightaway.

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It was a few years after I started
and then I kind of realized.

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So, I mean, footwear analysis,
you you're looking at footprints

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and shoes matching those.

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You know, that's

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not something
that podiatrists can solely do.

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You know,
anybody can do that in the forensic world.

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Barefoot morphology again
with matching shapes.

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So, anybody with a good eye,
I mean even fingerprinting

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people have a good eye for that
barefoot morphology.

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It's not something specifically that,
you know, the podiatrist can do.

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But when it came to Gates analysis
and I started reading about it

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and see that there were podiatrists

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who were looking at it,
and I realized, well, my

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understanding of biomechanics

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may be applicable here,

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but even still in forensic gates
analysis, it's

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not something
can only be done by the podiatrist at all.

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It just helps that you have
that background

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in forensic identification.

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And I don't know how it works
exactly appeal, but I know in many places

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you sort of a generalist,
you learn a lot of different things.

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But do they allow you to go in
like our most people do?

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They sort of have
maybe somebody gets into fingerprints,

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maybe somebody gets more into,
I don't know, bullet trajectories.

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You know, you're getting into gait
analysis.

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Did each one of you sort of have an area
you were more interested in or

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you specialized in?

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Well, I'm fortunate because it peels

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they you know, they look at people

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who want to specialize
and they will support you in that.

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There are areas in forensic
which when we go through

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our basic forensic training,

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we're learning photography,
fingerprinting, footwear impressions.

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We do sort of like a basic in blood

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pattern analysis,
but that's a specialized area.

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So, people who have an interest
in certain areas, they may specialize.

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Okay.

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When you were starting to move

00;14;03;07 - 00;14;07;01
into the whole Gates analysis realm,

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what kind of resources were available
to you

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like for training
and to get certified and,

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you know, all the things that are required
in order to make you an expert?

00;14;16;23 - 00;14;19;24
Like were they fairly well
and readily available

00;14;19;24 - 00;14;23;19
or was it still something
that's still being developed in 2016?

00;14;23;22 - 00;14;25;21
Well, not in Canada.

00;14;25;23 - 00;14;29;22
So, trends and gait analysis were being done
in the UK

00;14;29;28 - 00;14;34;01
a lot and in the US was being done

00;14;34;04 - 00;14;38;07
and it was in the UK
that they found the people

00;14;38;07 - 00;14;42;21
who were really sort of pioneering it
and pushing it,

00;14;42;24 - 00;14;46;21
and it was at the IEEE
that they were running.

00;14;46;24 - 00;14;50;04
Gates Analysis

00;14;50;07 - 00;14;51;15
workshops

00;14;51;15 - 00;14;54;08
and lectures, and I attended those.

00;14;54;08 - 00;14;57;05
I'm like, okay, well this is something
that maybe I can do.

00;14;57;05 - 00;15;01;19
So, two years running, I went to the
I the first chair was sort of,

00;15;01;21 - 00;15;04;05
Okay, what's this all about?
This one a bit more about it.

00;15;04;05 - 00;15;09;05
And then the following year I actually did
a certification in Gates analysis.

00;15;09;08 - 00;15;11;23
So yeah, I had to kind of go

00;15;11;23 - 00;15;16;11
looking for it to see where it was,
where the research was being done.

00;15;16;14 - 00;15;18;24
Yeah, because, you know, it's

00;15;18;24 - 00;15;21;25
now becoming more of an established craft,

00;15;22;03 - 00;15;24;29
as it were, in forensics.

00;15;24;29 - 00;15;29;10
So, in the UK and in particular,
it's really been strongly hacking that.

00;15;29;13 - 00;15;32;26
So would you say that UK
is sort of like the, the leading country

00;15;32;26 - 00;15;34;28
with experts in that, in that area?

00;15;34;28 - 00;15;38;08
They they're doing a very,
very good job. Yes.

00;15;38;11 - 00;15;39;25
Okay.

00;15;39;25 - 00;15;42;23
So, let's talk about gait analysis.

00;15;42;23 - 00;15;45;23
And if you I'm sure
that when you go to trial,

00;15;45;23 - 00;15;48;29
people are going to ask you, you know,
the lawyers ask you, so, you know,

00;15;49;01 - 00;15;51;26
Officer Harris,
so, tell me about gait analysis.

00;15;51;26 - 00;15;52;14
What can you tell me?

00;15;52;14 - 00;15;54;15
So, I'll ask you the same sort of question.

00;15;54;15 - 00;16;00;03
And, you know, how do you typically describe it to the jury or the judge at trial?

00;16;00;06 - 00;16;01;03
Yeah, well, well,

00;16;01;03 - 00;16;04;09
Gates is essentially the way that we walk.

00;16;04;09 - 00;16;05;25
We stand, we run.

00;16;05;25 - 00;16;09;19
So, Gates analysis is the analysis of that.

00;16;09;20 - 00;16;13;11
It's the analysis of the locomotion
of our body in motion.

00;16;13;14 - 00;16;19;09
So, the forensic gates analysis
is that applied in the criminal setting.

00;16;19;11 - 00;16;19;19
All right.

00;16;19;19 - 00;16;23;19
When it comes to criminal investigations
or the legal system.

00;16;23;21 - 00;16;26;26
So, you know, we look at,
you know, the way the body works,

00;16;26;26 - 00;16;30;29
but we're looking at primarily
CCTV footage.

00;16;31;02 - 00;16;34;15
So, what's happening is a crime,

00;16;34;18 - 00;16;37;25
let's say, has happened
and it's been caught on camera.

00;16;37;25 - 00;16;42;05
And the investigators,
they have a suspect in mind.

00;16;42;07 - 00;16;44;11
Now, forensic Gates analysis.

00;16;44;11 - 00;16;48;16
It's important to know
that it's not an identification tool.

00;16;48;19 - 00;16;51;18
It is primarily an investigative aid.

00;16;51;22 - 00;16;57;00
So, all pretty much your investigations
start with your eyewitness testimony.

00;16;57;00 - 00;17;00;24
If people that they've witness something,

00;17;00;26 - 00;17;01;19
forensic Gates

00;17;01;19 - 00;17;06;00
analysis will take the video
that would have been taken from the scene.

00;17;06;02 - 00;17;09;29
And we're looking at a subject
and we're seeing if that can be used.

00;17;09;29 - 00;17;14;17
If I can see this person walking
and if I can start to identify

00;17;14;17 - 00;17;17;26
sort of individual
aspects of that person's gait.

00;17;17;28 - 00;17;21;09
And I'm looking not just the feet,
the legs, we're going from head

00;17;21;11 - 00;17;24;08
to toe, the whole body,
the way the arms move,

00;17;24;08 - 00;17;27;19
the shoulders, the hips
all the way down to the feet.

00;17;27;21 - 00;17;28;06
Okay.

00;17;28;06 - 00;17;33;06
What are some of the earliest references
to gait analysis are either,

00;17;33;08 - 00;17;38;15
yeah, in in practice
or sort of historically,

00;17;38;17 - 00;17;41;01
you know,
where is it first been referenced

00;17;41;01 - 00;17;45;05
so, you can actually find way back?

00;17;45;07 - 00;17;46;20
Aristotle.

00;17;46;20 - 00;17;51;25
So, we're looking at like 300
B.C., something like that.

00;17;51;28 - 00;17;53;16
And what he found

00;17;53;16 - 00;17;57;08
was he had a read dipped in ink

00;17;57;10 - 00;18;01;19
and attach it to somebody's head
and then the lead would drag along a wall.

00;18;01;21 - 00;18;06;01
And then as that person walked, he could
see the three was going up and down.

00;18;06;03 - 00;18;09;21
So, you know, that's one of the earlier
sort of

00;18;09;23 - 00;18;14;13
the acknowledgment of simple gait
that somebody, when they're walking

00;18;14;13 - 00;18;17;13
something is happening,
that they seeing something happen.

00;18;17;17 - 00;18;20;17
Now, you can also look at

00;18;20;19 - 00;18;23;06
William Shakespeare,

00;18;23;06 - 00;18;25;18
you know, one of his plays, The Tempest.

00;18;25;18 - 00;18;29;22
So, I think we're talking 1610.

00;18;29;22 - 00;18;34;03
I believe that was so in there
in that play.

00;18;34;06 - 00;18;35;26
One of the goddesses,

00;18;35;26 - 00;18;39;25
Sarah, I think it was she's
waiting for somebody to come along.

00;18;39;27 - 00;18;44;22
And I believe it's Juno,
the goddess of marriage.

00;18;44;22 - 00;18;46;22
I believe it is.

00;18;46;24 - 00;18;49;06
And Sarah says, oh, here she comes.

00;18;49;06 - 00;18;51;04
I know her by her gates.

00;18;51;04 - 00;18;54;01
So, Shakespeare was referencing gate.

00;18;54;01 - 00;18;58;18
So, it was known back then
that, you know, people walk and maybe

00;18;58;18 - 00;19;02;12
there's something individualistic
about the way that that person walks.

00;19;02;15 - 00;19;07;14
So, you can go back quite a long way
and see the things have been written

00;19;07;16 - 00;19;10;08
in history referencing gate

00;19;10;08 - 00;19;13;08
and pretty amazing And

00;19;13;10 - 00;19;15;19
when it comes to the practice

00;19;15;19 - 00;19;19;10
and the approach that you take,

00;19;19;12 - 00;19;21;24
well, I guess to start off with

00;19;21;24 - 00;19;26;09
the real way that you work doing it
analysis has to be from video.

00;19;26;09 - 00;19;29;04
I mean, I don't know how else you do it
other than unless you're present

00;19;29;04 - 00;19;31;11
looking at a suspect walking
or something like that.

00;19;31;11 - 00;19;34;02
But so, you're working a lot with video.

00;19;34;05 - 00;19;34;19
Yeah.

00;19;34;19 - 00;19;36;17
Yeah, all the time.

00;19;36;17 - 00;19;37;11
You know that.

00;19;37;11 - 00;19;40;22
That's really
the only way to do it at this time.

00;19;40;24 - 00;19;43;14
And I mean, in a clinical setting,
you know,

00;19;43;14 - 00;19;47;23
we can record somebody
to the smallest degree of measurement.

00;19;47;26 - 00;19;50;18
But on CCTV,

00;19;50;18 - 00;19;55;04
you know, we're looking at the person
who is being advised me

00;19;55;06 - 00;19;57;26
this is a person of interest
and I'm looking at them

00;19;57;26 - 00;20;01;09
and I'm seeing what can I do
an analysis of this person's gait.

00;20;01;11 - 00;20;03;15
And that will depend
on the quality of the footage

00;20;03;15 - 00;20;06;15
and how much footage there
is, is a lot of things that go into that.

00;20;06;19 - 00;20;09;18
But yeah, it's all from CCTV.

00;20;09;25 - 00;20;10;13
Okay.

00;20;10;13 - 00;20;14;03
And I remember in your presentation
you were talking about that,

00;20;14;03 - 00;20;16;17
you know, you sort of you have well,
there are a few things.

00;20;16;17 - 00;20;20;14
There is a, a code
of conduct that you work to,

00;20;20;17 - 00;20;22;11
you know, for, for gait analysis.

00;20;22;11 - 00;20;27;10
And there's also a tool, there's tools
that use sort of like a checklist of items

00;20;27;10 - 00;20;31;00
that you adhere to as a sort of protocol
when you're doing your analysis.

00;20;31;06 - 00;20;35;08
And if you don't mind, if I could maybe
bring some of that up, maybe you can.

00;20;35;11 - 00;20;38;03
I can show people what this is
and you can describe it for the people

00;20;38;03 - 00;20;41;03
who are going to be listening
to this later.

00;20;41;06 - 00;20;41;19
Yeah.

00;20;41;19 - 00;20;46;09
So that's the tool that I use
when I get my video footage.

00;20;46;09 - 00;20;48;04
It helps me

00;20;48;04 - 00;20;51;04
as a guideline to

00;20;51;04 - 00;20;55;10
assess the video, whether the video's
going to be a suitable quality to use.

00;20;55;12 - 00;21;00;16
So, I'm looking at the clarity,
the contrast,

00;21;00;18 - 00;21;05;01
you know, is the image clearly visible?

00;21;05;03 - 00;21;07;00
You know, we're looking at lighting.

00;21;07;00 - 00;21;08;01
How good is the lighting?

00;21;08;01 - 00;21;09;22
What's the angle that I'm looking at?

00;21;09;22 - 00;21;11;04
The person from?

00;21;11;04 - 00;21;15;22
So, by looking at that chart, I can see

00;21;15;24 - 00;21;18;16
what sort of things
are going to be available to me to use.

00;21;18;16 - 00;21;23;04
Now the further right
that I go in the checkbox

00;21;23;06 - 00;21;26;03
on that chart, then it's not going to be

00;21;26;03 - 00;21;29;09
as good to be used in aggregate analysis.

00;21;29;09 - 00;21;32;10
The more to the left
as I'm starting to find the checkboxes

00;21;32;10 - 00;21;35;16
or checked off that the better quality
it's going to be.

00;21;35;18 - 00;21;38;07
So, it's good for disclosure as well.

00;21;38;07 - 00;21;42;20
So, when I get video footage the
if the investigator they're

00;21;42;20 - 00;21;46;10
seeing something and I send it to them
say, look, this is not good enough.

00;21;46;13 - 00;21;49;12
And, you know, we end up with a bit
of a discussion about it

00;21;49;12 - 00;21;53;19
and then I can give them this and say,
look, this is why this is what I'm seeing.

00;21;53;19 - 00;21;56;19
So okay, so this is this is it.

00;21;56;19 - 00;22;00;04
This is a tool that really assesses
the quality of the video

00;22;00;04 - 00;22;02;15
that you're being handed
and maybe how appropriate

00;22;02;15 - 00;22;06;05
it would be or,
you know, for use in in in an analysis.

00;22;06;07 - 00;22;06;23
Yeah.

00;22;06;23 - 00;22;09;18
At the end of the day, I need to be able
to see what I'm looking at.

00;22;09;18 - 00;22;10;15
Right, right.

00;22;10;15 - 00;22;10;20
Yeah.

00;22;10;20 - 00;22;14;02
If I can't do that, then
there's no point in going any further.

00;22;14;02 - 00;22;18;02
So, you know,
this can sort of end the lengthy process

00;22;18;04 - 00;22;19;02
early rather

00;22;19;02 - 00;22;22;06
than me spending a lot of hours
working through an analysis

00;22;22;06 - 00;22;26;08
when I know that it's just not going to be
any good at the end of the day.

00;22;26;11 - 00;22;28;02
Is this form something that you've created

00;22;28;02 - 00;22;31;16
or is it something fairly standard
that most people use?

00;22;31;18 - 00;22;35;23
The was the version,
but I created this based on the version

00;22;35;23 - 00;22;36;23
that other people use.

00;22;36;23 - 00;22;39;16
I just find it works for me.

00;22;39;16 - 00;22;41;10
Okay, let me let me move forward here.

00;22;41;10 - 00;22;43;25
I want to get to the other the other tool
here.

00;22;43;25 - 00;22;46;20
It's this big,
massive spreadsheet in Excel.

00;22;46;20 - 00;22;51;27
It's probably a be too small for people
to see, but it's a whole bunch of

00;22;51;29 - 00;22;52;22
boxes.

00;22;52;22 - 00;22;57;06
You've got Q numbers,
aq1, you've got A1 to G,

00;22;57;06 - 00;22;59;26
or maybe even more
and maybe even different tabs.

00;22;59;26 - 00;23;02;21
So, what can you tell me about this
particular tool?

00;23;02;21 - 00;23;05;24
Yeah, so this is the Sheffield
features of Gate Tool,

00;23;05;24 - 00;23;10;02
which was developed in the United Kingdom
for Professor Ivan Birch.

00;23;10;02 - 00;23;15;01
He's been prolific
in forensic Gates analysis.

00;23;15;04 - 00;23;17;04
He and his team developed this

00;23;17;04 - 00;23;21;04
and what it does is it's
kind of like a check.

00;23;21;04 - 00;23;24;13
Mark takes you through the whole process
from head to toe.

00;23;24;15 - 00;23;30;06
So, the Q on Q two that will be referencing
the footage.

00;23;30;06 - 00;23;33;08
The Q one will be footage one for two,
and that's question four.

00;23;33;13 - 00;23;38;11
So, the question footage
will be from a crime scene. So

00;23;38;13 - 00;23;41;27
and I'll have the image
that I'm looking at and then I'll start

00;23;41;27 - 00;23;46;19
going through this tool,
this spreadsheet, starting at the head.

00;23;46;19 - 00;23;47;23
What's the head doing?

00;23;47;23 - 00;23;48;05
Okay.

00;23;48;05 - 00;23;50;06
Is the head moving left, or right?

00;23;50;06 - 00;23;53;03
Is the head held forward of the body?
Is it tilted?

00;23;53;03 - 00;23;56;28
We're looking for all these
these different little aspects.

00;23;57;01 - 00;23;59;29
Now, it also depends on what angle I have

00;23;59;29 - 00;24;03;21
and how much video I have
that I'm able to use this tool

00;24;03;21 - 00;24;06;14
because some of the areas
I won't be able to see.

00;24;06;14 - 00;24;10;27
So, if it's if I'm looking at them
from the front on the video,

00;24;11;00 - 00;24;14;00
if there's a feature
which is better seen from the side,

00;24;14;03 - 00;24;16;12
then it's going to be difficult
for me to comment on.

00;24;16;12 - 00;24;18;28
So, for example, I'm
looking at the directly head on.

00;24;18;28 - 00;24;23;27
I may not see the
angulation of the knee,

00;24;23;29 - 00;24;24;10
you know,

00;24;24;10 - 00;24;28;09
which will then mean
I can't comment on this, this form.

00;24;28;09 - 00;24;32;26
So you go through the form, you end up
checking off all the features that you see

00;24;32;28 - 00;24;35;15
on the first piece of footage
you need that every other piece

00;24;35;15 - 00;24;37;04
of footage that you have.

00;24;37;04 - 00;24;39;20
And then when you get
the reference footage.

00;24;39;20 - 00;24;43;11
So, the investigator has a suspect
which they've obtained video

00;24;43;11 - 00;24;46;11
of them walking, and that's when I will do

00;24;46;12 - 00;24;49;21
independently of the question footage.

00;24;49;21 - 00;24;51;08
I'll do an analysis of that.

00;24;51;08 - 00;24;53;08
And then at the end of the day,
we bring them together

00;24;53;08 - 00;24;56;00
and we see how many of those features
align.

00;24;56;00 - 00;25;01;08
Okay, That's sort of guide me
as to how likely they are or may not be.

00;25;01;10 - 00;25;05;01
I guess ideally, you'd want
well, you'd be great

00;25;05;01 - 00;25;07;29
if you get the suspect from all kinds of
different angles, from different cameras

00;25;07;29 - 00;25;11;19
and that sort of thing, which I guess
sometimes you probably have some of that.

00;25;11;22 - 00;25;12;13
Yeah.

00;25;12;13 - 00;25;17;16
And thing is, in Canada
we don't have the CCTV system

00;25;17;16 - 00;25;21;14
that they seem to have in other countries
like in the UK is cameras everywhere.

00;25;21;16 - 00;25;23;29
So, the amount of footage you can get

00;25;23;29 - 00;25;28;24
can be vast, whereas over here
you might get one camera.

00;25;28;27 - 00;25;29;27
And so, it

00;25;29;27 - 00;25;33;19
can be very limiting too to,
you know what, I can actually come into

00;25;33;21 - 00;25;36;26
if you have to have one angle, one camera
angle

00;25;37;02 - 00;25;40;02
to analyze a suspect,

00;25;40;03 - 00;25;43;27
assuming it's daylight nice and clear,
what would that angle be?

00;25;44;00 - 00;25;46;23
Well, it's kind of a cheap right,
because we look at the body

00;25;46;23 - 00;25;49;08
in three different planes. Yeah.

00;25;49;08 - 00;25;51;28
So, one that captures all three planes,
I guess. So.

00;25;51;28 - 00;25;55;15
Kind of above and kind of to the side
a little bit.

00;25;55;22 - 00;25;56;28
So, the front-end side.

00;25;56;28 - 00;26;00;09
So that would be ideal.

00;26;00;12 - 00;26;03;05
But yeah, the slide you put up here,

00;26;03;05 - 00;26;07;00
these are the three planes
that we can view the body.

00;26;07;02 - 00;26;10;03
So, the sagittal plane and you can imagine

00;26;10;03 - 00;26;13;12
putting a plate of glass
right down the middle of the body.

00;26;13;15 - 00;26;18;01
So, movements along that plane, you know,
that will be the sagittal plane.

00;26;18;01 - 00;26;22;09
So, I can comment on,
you know, how far to say the arm move

00;26;22;12 - 00;26;23;14
when they're on the swing.

00;26;23;14 - 00;26;25;06
How far does it move in front of the body?

00;26;25;06 - 00;26;27;05
How far does it move behind the body?

00;26;27;05 - 00;26;30;16
I'll also be able to see,
does he hold the head forward of the body?

00;26;30;17 - 00;26;32;13
Does he drop his chin down?

00;26;32;13 - 00;26;36;05
You know, that's something that can be
easily viewed in sagittal point

00;26;36;07 - 00;26;37;18
your transverse plane there.

00;26;37;18 - 00;26;40;08
It's like if you play a glass
right through the body.

00;26;40;08 - 00;26;42;10
So twisting motions.

00;26;42;10 - 00;26;47;26
Okay, so if the shoulders are, you know,
twisting your wings, we may call it

00;26;47;29 - 00;26;48;07
that.

00;26;48;07 - 00;26;50;12
So that's the angle that we see that.

00;26;50;12 - 00;26;54;11
And then the frontal plane
also known as the coronal plane

00;26;54;14 - 00;26;54;28
again.

00;26;54;28 - 00;26;58;08
So, anything
that's moving away or towards the body.

00;26;58;11 - 00;27;03;28
So, if you can imagine the feet
being out, towed or towed,

00;27;04;00 - 00;27;08;00
we'll be able to see that quite clearly
in the in the frontal point.

00;27;08;02 - 00;27;10;19
So, an angle that accompany
or sort of covers

00;27;10;19 - 00;27;13;16
all three of those planes
would be perfect.

00;27;13;16 - 00;27;14;13
Okay.

00;27;14;13 - 00;27;17;21
When you so when you do the reference

00;27;17;24 - 00;27;20;14
video, are you capturing that

00;27;20;14 - 00;27;23;22
also, from these potato
to capture these particular planes?

00;27;23;23 - 00;27;26;25
Are you getting even more like
what do you what's sort of a best practice

00;27;26;25 - 00;27;30;16
in order to get the right video
as a reference.

00;27;30;23 - 00;27;31;02
Yeah.

00;27;31;02 - 00;27;38;19
So ideally you reference video you want to
have similar to your question footage

00;27;38;21 - 00;27;40;00
if possible.

00;27;40;00 - 00;27;42;14
If not, then we just work
with what we have.

00;27;42;14 - 00;27;43;23
But at the end of the day,

00;27;43;23 - 00;27;46;28
the investigator is going to be providing
that that video footage.

00;27;46;28 - 00;27;49;28
I can help advise them on how to get that.

00;27;50;04 - 00;27;55;01
The once they've identified
somebody of interest,

00;27;55;04 - 00;27;57;00
you know,
they may go say they go to the mall

00;27;57;00 - 00;28;00;22
and they may be able to get them footage
of that person walking around.

00;28;00;24 - 00;28;04;24
I've even had it where they've had
in custody video footage.

00;28;04;26 - 00;28;08;21
So, they have to be careful
because if you start directing

00;28;08;21 - 00;28;11;21
somebody to walk in an area

00;28;11;28 - 00;28;15;14
that can be problematic legally,

00;28;15;16 - 00;28;18;26
you know, I mean, video in a custody

00;28;18;26 - 00;28;21;26
suite is it's known
that it's there, it's fixed.

00;28;22;00 - 00;28;25;09
And but if you stop
so, you have somebody under arrest

00;28;25;09 - 00;28;28;16
and you start directing them into areas
they wouldn't normally be

00;28;28;16 - 00;28;31;26
just to capture them on video,
that could be a problem there.

00;28;31;26 - 00;28;34;24
And you may be in the realms of warrants
and things like that.

00;28;34;24 - 00;28;37;14
So, a lot of them will go out,
the investigators will go out

00;28;37;14 - 00;28;40;15
and they'll do surveillance
and they'll have a team

00;28;40;15 - 00;28;43;26
with a camera
videoing this person out and about.

00;28;43;29 - 00;28;48;00
And, you know, that can be problematic
as well, because often

00;28;48;00 - 00;28;51;06
I've had them where the video
that panning as they're doing it.

00;28;51;08 - 00;28;57;22
So, you need a steady camera just watching
this guy, you know, walking around. So,

00;28;57;24 - 00;28;59;07
yeah, there's a lot that goes into it.

00;28;59;07 - 00;29;03;09
But ideally
if one the footage is similar as possible.

00;29;03;11 - 00;29;05;21
Yeah, video is obviously really important.

00;29;05;21 - 00;29;07;12
And there's a question, Yeah,
I was going to ask you about it

00;29;07;12 - 00;29;11;14
anyway, but it has to do with the frame
rate of the camera like that.

00;29;11;14 - 00;29;13;02
Obviously, it must be important

00;29;13;02 - 00;29;16;05
because if it's really like
you must consider the frame,

00;29;16;11 - 00;29;20;24
if it's really slow, like a really slow
frame rate versus variable frame rate.

00;29;20;24 - 00;29;23;19
So just wondering about the considerations
there.

00;29;23;19 - 00;29;29;09
Yeah, well, ideally what we look for
is a minimum of eight frames per second.

00;29;29;11 - 00;29;33;16
Anything below that becomes a real problem
because

00;29;33;19 - 00;29;38;22
when I'm looking at a piece of video,
I can do it frame by frame, slow it down,

00;29;38;22 - 00;29;42;02
and I can get some good detail of exactly
what's going on.

00;29;42;04 - 00;29;45;20
But if the frame rates too slow
and you're going frame by frame,

00;29;45;22 - 00;29;48;12
then the jump in the image,

00;29;48;12 - 00;29;51;12
you know, you could have had a whole step
go missing.

00;29;51;18 - 00;29;54;19
So, you want to find the higher
the frame rate, you're actually

00;29;54;19 - 00;29;59;14
capturing more of that person
walking on the video because you can lose

00;29;59;14 - 00;30;02;26
a lot of detail, a lot of information
with a low frame rate.

00;30;02;28 - 00;30;06;23
Now, the other thing that can happen
is with some of the systems

00;30;06;23 - 00;30;10;15
that we get is
you get compression in these video files.

00;30;10;17 - 00;30;14;18
So, the frame rate, if I do the properties
of that video footage,

00;30;14;21 - 00;30;19;03
will tell me the frame rate is 2030,
whatever it may be.

00;30;19;05 - 00;30;22;06
But it's not it’s actually

00;30;22;08 - 00;30;22;22
it's done

00;30;22;22 - 00;30;26;07
something to make that video
more viewable.

00;30;26;09 - 00;30;28;10
But the actual frame rate is very low.

00;30;28;10 - 00;30;29;14
So, you know,

00;30;29;14 - 00;30;30;06
you have to be very

00;30;30;06 - 00;30;33;16
I have to be very careful
when I'm sort of looking at that footage.

00;30;33;19 - 00;30;35;14
Right.

00;30;35;14 - 00;30;39;01
There was a slide that I recall, and I have
it here as well, so I'd like to show it.

00;30;39;01 - 00;30;43;15
But it has to do with the way
that you make conclusions

00;30;43;15 - 00;30;48;16
and the way that you report conclusions
and has I'll bring it up here in a second.

00;30;48;16 - 00;30;53;05
But has that changed over the years
in terms of what people can say in a gait

00;30;53;05 - 00;30;58;23
analysis, opinion versus today,
sort of what the standard is for that?

00;30;58;26 - 00;31;01;07
Yeah, it's

00;31;01;07 - 00;31;02;10
continually being developed.

00;31;02;10 - 00;31;06;27
So, the one they use in Gates analysis,
as you're showing on the screen here,

00;31;07;00 - 00;31;12;22
it was developed by the European Network
of Forensic Science Institute

00;31;12;24 - 00;31;15;14
and they've adopted it for gait
analysis.

00;31;15;14 - 00;31;19;07
Now, you got to remember Gates
analysis is not an identification tool,

00;31;19;09 - 00;31;24;09
so, there's no ratio's out there
that we can use to say this.

00;31;24;09 - 00;31;28;18
It's X number of percent more likely
to be this person, that person.

00;31;28;21 - 00;31;30;09
This is purely opinion based.

00;31;30;09 - 00;31;32;16
It's very subjective.

00;31;32;16 - 00;31;35;05
And this is the sort of the list

00;31;35;05 - 00;31;39;00
of conclusions as a verbal expression

00;31;39;03 - 00;31;40;19
when you come to

00;31;40;19 - 00;31;45;06
ultimately your end conclusion. So

00;31;45;09 - 00;31;49;06
when I'm doing an analysis using this
this chart,

00;31;49;08 - 00;31;53;23
if the video footage is no good,
if we can't really see anything,

00;31;53;26 - 00;31;54;20
you're going to be sitting there

00;31;54;20 - 00;31;57;20
right in the middle
that it's not providing any assistance.

00;31;57;20 - 00;31;59;13
So, we're either looking at

00;31;59;13 - 00;32;03;21
it is more likely to be the person
or it is not likely to be the person.

00;32;03;24 - 00;32;08;17
So, depending on how many features
that you're seeing which seem to align

00;32;08;23 - 00;32;10;08
between your reference footage

00;32;10;08 - 00;32;13;13
and your question footage,
the higher at that scale you can look out,

00;32;13;16 - 00;32;14;12
but you're never going to have

00;32;14;12 - 00;32;18;05
an identification
no different scientists in forensics

00;32;18;05 - 00;32;20;19
have their different scales
of conclusions.

00;32;20;19 - 00;32;24;19
This mythology has a slightly different
one fingerprinting.

00;32;24;25 - 00;32;27;05
You know, this has three have.

00;32;27;05 - 00;32;30;01
It is, it isn’t, or we don't know,

00;32;30;01 - 00;32;33;23
you know how simply but again

00;32;33;27 - 00;32;37;12
Gates analysis there's this quite a few
there that they use.

00;32;37;14 - 00;32;39;15
Okay.

00;32;39;17 - 00;32;40;11
I was going to ask you a

00;32;40;11 - 00;32;44;21
question
about as you're working on these cases,

00;32;44;24 - 00;32;47;20
have you ever had any

00;32;47;20 - 00;32;53;10
which were very difficult for you, like,
for example, in in the sense that

00;32;53;13 - 00;32;57;19
there's two people that look very,
very similar in terms of their walking

00;32;57;19 - 00;33;00;25
and they could for example, I can
I can see a point where two people

00;33;00;25 - 00;33;05;06
have the same style of walk,
but they're different people too.

00;33;05;06 - 00;33;07;04
And I don't know what the reason for
that would be,

00;33;07;04 - 00;33;08;14
but maybe somebody has a short leg

00;33;08;14 - 00;33;11;12
and the other person has a short leg
or something like that.

00;33;11;12 - 00;33;15;03
But if you've seen that a lot
or not really like

00;33;15;05 - 00;33;19;20
no, because when I get the footage
from the investigator,

00;33;19;21 - 00;33;22;18
it's very important
that they let me know who I'm looking at.

00;33;22;18 - 00;33;27;00
So, they should know, you know, if there's
a video and there's several people on it.

00;33;27;00 - 00;33;32;03
I mean, I've had
footage from shopping centers

00;33;32;05 - 00;33;32;12
where

00;33;32;12 - 00;33;35;11
there are dozens of people walking around,

00;33;35;15 - 00;33;39;02
and I didn't know who I was looking at
then.

00;33;39;05 - 00;33;41;09
You know, there's nothing
I can't do anything with that.

00;33;41;09 - 00;33;46;05
So, the investigator has to let me know
who I'm looking at now, where that can be

00;33;46;07 - 00;33;50;26
an issue is we talk about eyewitnesses,
and I mentioned that earlier.

00;33;50;28 - 00;33;53;22
So, an eyewitness may see

00;33;53;22 - 00;33;56;22
people who may see somebody

00;33;56;24 - 00;33;58;15
and give a description.

00;33;58;15 - 00;34;01;08
They were this tall.
Their head was like this.

00;34;01;08 - 00;34;03;14
They were wearing such and such clothing.

00;34;03;14 - 00;34;06;13
And when the investigator
looks at the video,

00;34;06;13 - 00;34;09;13
you see several people
who look exactly the same.

00;34;09;16 - 00;34;13;12
So, if that's why Witness was
then able to say

00;34;13;14 - 00;34;17;02
there was something unusual
about the way that they walked,

00;34;17;04 - 00;34;21;05
then that may, you know,
allow us to home in a little bit more

00;34;21;07 - 00;34;25;03
and actually, brings me around
because I was working two weeks ago

00;34;25;05 - 00;34;28;06
and just standing,
you know, on the side of the road.

00;34;28;06 - 00;34;33;21
And I was just watching people walking
and the two girls going to get a bus

00;34;33;23 - 00;34;37;20
and they looked identical same hair,
same clothes, same height.

00;34;37;24 - 00;34;38;25
Everything was the same.

00;34;38;25 - 00;34;40;13
You wouldn't be able to tell them

00;34;40;13 - 00;34;42;11
whether they worked at the same place,
I don't know.

00;34;42;11 - 00;34;44;09
But they looked identical.

00;34;44;09 - 00;34;48;14
But one of them, when she walked,
it was like a horse drop.

00;34;48;16 - 00;34;51;16
Her knees came upwards
before they went for walks.

00;34;51;22 - 00;34;55;06
And right there was
that was a difference.

00;34;55;13 - 00;34;59;29
So, you have two people who look the same,
but they walk differently.

00;35;00;04 - 00;35;04;02
Interesting,
you know, different types of analysis,

00;35;04;02 - 00;35;08;27
like one, for example, suspect
height analysis is a way of quantifying

00;35;09;00 - 00;35;10;16
how tall the person is.

00;35;10;16 - 00;35;14;04
And as I'm wondering if they're currently
on the list that you have,

00;35;14;09 - 00;35;17;05
there's a lot of sorts
of these qualitative things.

00;35;17;05 - 00;35;20;28
And I'm wondering if, for example,
you know, maybe you're watching a video

00;35;20;28 - 00;35;25;13
and I don't know, maybe there's
there's two people walking down

00;35;25;15 - 00;35;27;05
a roadway or something,

00;35;27;05 - 00;35;29;18
but, you know, height or something
plays a fact

00;35;29;18 - 00;35;32;10
or there's something that immediately
tells you, hey,

00;35;32;10 - 00;35;35;06
there has to be an exclusion here
because of some minor difference.

00;35;35;06 - 00;35;40;08
But have you ever run into any of that
or is any of that considered?

00;35;40;10 - 00;35;43;05
Not really,
because I always know who I'm looking at,

00;35;43;05 - 00;35;48;07
but in regard to height,
I'll keep that separate from my analysis

00;35;48;07 - 00;35;51;25
because I'm looking at the way
that they walk.

00;35;51;27 - 00;35;54;00
I'm not going to be doing
those measurements

00;35;54;00 - 00;35;58;00
if that is something that the investigator
wants to do aside,

00;35;58;00 - 00;36;03;03
and then as a complement to what I do,
then that may work well.

00;36;03;06 - 00;36;05;23
But as the gatehouse is,
it's purely visual.

00;36;05;23 - 00;36;10;06
You know, I'm using my expertise,
you know,

00;36;10;09 - 00;36;14;01
and basically
all forensic analysis will do that

00;36;14;04 - 00;36;17;04
is they're looking at the person
and what do I see?

00;36;17;04 - 00;36;18;18
They're not taking measurements.

00;36;18;18 - 00;36;20;10
We're not objectively

00;36;20;10 - 00;36;24;03
looking at it in the training data
because we can't do that from a video

00;36;24;03 - 00;36;28;09
because, you know, again, frame rates,
angles, quality of video.

00;36;28;12 - 00;36;31;02
You know,
I don't know what with the ground is flat.

00;36;31;02 - 00;36;33;05
They don't know what type of shoes
that were.

00;36;33;05 - 00;36;37;22
And there's so many different things
which can play into something like height.

00;36;37;25 - 00;36;38;13
So, you were

00;36;38;13 - 00;36;41;13
just looking at the way
that the body moves on that camera.

00;36;41;17 - 00;36;42;03
Okay.

00;36;42;03 - 00;36;45;13
I'd like to show the videos that you sent
me, and it's in the next slide.

00;36;45;13 - 00;36;49;27
So maybe I or
I guess I could keep playing it too,

00;36;49;27 - 00;36;52;14
but maybe you want to just sort of

00;36;52;14 - 00;36;55;07
give a description of what we're going
to see here just before I show it

00;36;55;07 - 00;36;58;17
so, people know what they're looking at
and I'll do the first one.

00;36;58;20 - 00;36;59;04
Yeah.

00;36;59;04 - 00;37;02;22
So, these videos were part
of a research project

00;37;02;22 - 00;37;05;27
I helped the University
of Toronto do last year.

00;37;05;27 - 00;37;09;18
And what we were looking to ascertain
is whether

00;37;09;21 - 00;37;13;03
a group of people
were able to recognize people

00;37;13;03 - 00;37;17;25
that they know, people that they work
with purely by the way that they walk.

00;37;17;25 - 00;37;20;27
And what we did is we disguised

00;37;21;00 - 00;37;22;12
a bunch of people.

00;37;22;12 - 00;37;27;23
So, they would get these videos
and they were given footage,

00;37;27;26 - 00;37;30;24
as you see, of individuals walking.

00;37;30;24 - 00;37;33;24
And when they got them,
they got five videos

00;37;33;24 - 00;37;38;03
and they were asked to name
or asked to identify somebody by name.

00;37;38;05 - 00;37;42;27
So, they would have known, you know, this
person they work with all these people.

00;37;43;00 - 00;37;47;03
But you can see here,
these two videos are different people.

00;37;47;03 - 00;37;49;15
The difference is
that you may be able to see.

00;37;49;15 - 00;37;52;23
So, for one, the cadence, the speed,

00;37;52;26 - 00;37;55;16
the image on the left,
the way the person walks is a lot

00;37;55;16 - 00;37;57;21
faster than the one on the right.

00;37;57;21 - 00;38;00;10
But just the way that the arms move,

00;38;00;10 - 00;38;04;15
the way the shoulder the has been held,

00;38;04;17 - 00;38;08;22
there's a lot of difference that the image
on the right you can see is very stiff.

00;38;08;24 - 00;38;11;29
The left shoulder barely moves.

00;38;12;01 - 00;38;13;24
Those are
the sort of things that we're looking at.

00;38;13;24 - 00;38;14;26
We're looking at, you know, what

00;38;14;26 - 00;38;18;26
position of the feet and, you know,
and this is from the frontal plane only.

00;38;18;26 - 00;38;23;07
So, we're not looking from,
you know, the sagittal or the transverse

00;38;23;09 - 00;38;23;28
one plane.

00;38;23;28 - 00;38;26;08
And you can see that
there's a lot of difference there.

00;38;26;08 - 00;38;29;08
I have a question. Do you find that

00;38;29;14 - 00;38;33;19
it's more difficult to distinguish

00;38;33;19 - 00;38;36;27
gait on people
who are younger versus people who are much

00;38;36;27 - 00;38;41;13
older?

00;38;41;15 - 00;38;43;02
It's tricky.

00;38;43;02 - 00;38;46;04
It depends on how young you're
talking about because the body is still

00;38;46;04 - 00;38;51;26
developing and gaits
be affected by many factors like injury.

00;38;51;29 - 00;38;56;00
So, as you get older, your gait may change.

00;38;56;02 - 00;39;02;06
If you have arthritis, for example, or
you've broken a leg, or something happens,

00;39;02;08 - 00;39;03;02
you know, that can

00;39;03;02 - 00;39;06;02
change the way that your
your gait functions.

00;39;06;02 - 00;39;09;18
So, the young

00;39;09;20 - 00;39;11;13
well,
like I said, when I was the other week,

00;39;11;13 - 00;39;13;25
there were two young girls
and I could clearly see a difference

00;39;13;25 - 00;39;14;26
in the way that they walk.

00;39;14;26 - 00;39;19;26
So, the very young guys,
the ones that are still growing,

00;39;19;29 - 00;39;22;17
that gait will change as they get older.

00;39;22;17 - 00;39;27;27
But when we're doing Gates analysis,
normally we're using smaller time frames.

00;39;28;00 - 00;39;30;13
So, the crime would have happened.

00;39;30;13 - 00;39;32;17
They're obtaining video pretty quickly.

00;39;32;17 - 00;39;36;05
They're doing an investigation
and they're finding a suspect.

00;39;36;05 - 00;39;42;23
So, I may begin the video
within a few days or even weeks or months.

00;39;42;26 - 00;39;45;17
You know, it's not going to be years.

00;39;45;17 - 00;39;47;27
Let me play the next video here.

00;39;47;27 - 00;39;49;02
There we go.

00;39;49;02 - 00;39;51;21
So, the first two males, these are females.

00;39;51;21 - 00;39;56;16
So, these two,
you can actually see how similar

00;39;56;18 - 00;40;00;18
it can
be between different people walking.

00;40;00;21 - 00;40;05;12
So, this is where the Gates analysts
analyst really comes in,

00;40;05;12 - 00;40;10;06
because they would be able to sort of
look into that finer detail.

00;40;10;08 - 00;40;12;17
I mean, just looking at that
as an eyewitness,

00;40;12;17 - 00;40;14;19
you're not going to see much difference
between them.

00;40;14;19 - 00;40;19;26
But when I look at those,
I do see the right foot,

00;40;19;29 - 00;40;22;06
the character on the right screen there.

00;40;22;06 - 00;40;24;20
There is a little bit
of a difference there that I'm noticing.

00;40;24;20 - 00;40;29;29
And the arms do swing a little bit
differently, but they are very similar.

00;40;29;29 - 00;40;33;00
So that can be some of the
some of the challenges that we have.

00;40;33;00 - 00;40;37;00
And that's where the shift
to features of Gate two really comes in

00;40;37;00 - 00;40;41;25
because it sort of allows you
to keep everything organized and detailed.

00;40;41;28 - 00;40;43;07
So, it helps to break that out.

00;40;43;07 - 00;40;46;16
These little differences, it
sort of scores them in a particular way.

00;40;46;18 - 00;40;47;12
Yes. Yes.

00;40;47;12 - 00;40;52;11
And then when I come to my conclusion,
it allows me to sort of speak to that.

00;40;52;13 - 00;40;53;09
Okay.

00;40;53;09 - 00;40;56;10
You talked about research, and
I do want to ask you a couple of questions

00;40;56;10 - 00;40;59;16
regarding some of the other research
that's been out there

00;40;59;18 - 00;41;04;01
and the name you mentioned before, Ivan
Birch, that he comes up quite frequently.

00;41;04;01 - 00;41;07;19
So, he must be doing quite a bit of work
in this in this particular area.

00;41;07;19 - 00;41;10;08
But do you know him by chance?

00;41;10;08 - 00;41;12;28
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a great guy.

00;41;12;28 - 00;41;14;12
What? Where is he out of?

00;41;14;12 - 00;41;14;22
Do you know?

00;41;14;22 - 00;41;17;22
Is he with
the university is in private practice.

00;41;17;26 - 00;41;20;23
So, he's in the UK and the Sheffield
Teaching Hospital.

00;41;20;23 - 00;41;24;15
I believe it is. Okay. Interesting.

00;41;24;17 - 00;41;25;09
So, there was

00;41;25;09 - 00;41;28;23
a there was a study
that was I think it was called the,

00;41;28;26 - 00;41;32;17
the identification of individuals
by observational data analysis

00;41;32;17 - 00;41;35;16
using closed circuit television footage
and they're comparing

00;41;35;19 - 00;41;39;06
the ability and confidence of experienced
and non experienced analysts.

00;41;39;06 - 00;41;43;12
So, people that have,
you know, no study or whatever,

00;41;43;15 - 00;41;45;19
and then people who are deeply this.

00;41;45;19 - 00;41;49;24
What can you tell me about that
particular study and some of the findings?

00;41;49;26 - 00;41;50;05
Yeah.

00;41;50;05 - 00;41;53;05
So essentially

00;41;53;05 - 00;41;55;26
people who have no experience
with case analysis

00;41;55;26 - 00;41;59;05
and people who are experienced with gait

00;41;59;08 - 00;42;02;19
were given footage to review

00;42;02;21 - 00;42;06;11
and compare
and they actually found that people

00;42;06;11 - 00;42;09;11
with no experience were able to do this.

00;42;09;16 - 00;42;11;07
In fact, they were more confident

00;42;11;07 - 00;42;15;19
in their findings
than people who have training in gait.

00;42;15;21 - 00;42;16;26
So, it was interesting

00;42;16;26 - 00;42;20;17
and the research that I did
with Toronto University

00;42;20;19 - 00;42;24;23
found the same thing
that people with no training in gait

00;42;24;26 - 00;42;29;23
were able to recognize people purely
by the way that they walk.

00;42;29;25 - 00;42;33;07
I mean, I found when we did our research,
I had people coming up to me

00;42;33;07 - 00;42;33;25
afterwards saying,

00;42;33;25 - 00;42;38;02
Oh yeah, I know who that person was
by the sound of them walking.

00;42;38;05 - 00;42;41;13
So, they were picking up all sorts of stuff
and it just got them thinking.

00;42;41;13 - 00;42;45;29
It's interesting, you know, that they're
finding that they're seeing those things,

00;42;46;01 - 00;42;50;09
but it supports the eyewitness testimony
that somebody with no training

00;42;50;12 - 00;42;54;17
can recognize that there is a difference
in the way that people walk.

00;42;54;17 - 00;42;55;07
And that's important.

00;42;55;07 - 00;42;58;28
When you go to court to speak to the jury,
you're educating the court

00;42;59;01 - 00;43;02;03
that you can say,
yeah, you can all do this.

00;43;02;05 - 00;43;03;11
Yeah, I think that makes sense.

00;43;03;11 - 00;43;06;17
And I think that's one thing
which most people do understand,

00;43;06;17 - 00;43;08;11
especially when it's somebody
you're familiar with.

00;43;08;11 - 00;43;12;14
I mean, I can't tell you whether it's
your kids or whether it's whatever.

00;43;12;14 - 00;43;15;18
You know, they could be across
the shopping mall or whatever.

00;43;15;18 - 00;43;17;07
And you can see them coming
because, you know,

00;43;17;07 - 00;43;19;18
the way they walk,
they have an arm that goes on a little bit

00;43;19;18 - 00;43;21;02
more than the other
or something like that.

00;43;21;02 - 00;43;24;23
So, I think from that
regard, it's interesting.

00;43;24;26 - 00;43;27;26
Do you think it's necessary for
there was in one of the

00;43;28;03 - 00;43;32;00
I think in one of the studies
somebody had mentioned

00;43;32;03 - 00;43;35;12
that it really is unknown at this point

00;43;35;14 - 00;43;39;28
whether or not that gait
is something unique

00;43;40;01 - 00;43;41;08
to an individual.

00;43;41;08 - 00;43;43;19
And I'm not sure if that matters or
not right now.

00;43;43;19 - 00;43;46;14
But I'm just curious
on your opinion on that.

00;43;46;16 - 00;43;49;26
Yeah,
well, I think the courts like uniqueness.

00;43;49;28 - 00;43;54;02
You know, it's a definitive answer,

00;43;54;04 - 00;43;57;03
but gait analysis as it stands now

00;43;57;03 - 00;43;59;28
and the way that we do it in the forensic

00;43;59;28 - 00;44;03;09
well, you can't say it's unique

00;44;03;11 - 00;44;05;04
in a clinical setting.

00;44;05;04 - 00;44;09;25
You can measure smaller and smaller
until you find uniqueness, you know,

00;44;09;25 - 00;44;13;05
but that's clinical
setting using advanced technology

00;44;13;05 - 00;44;16;04
and computer systems.

00;44;16;05 - 00;44;19;19
But with the advancements
of artificial intelligence,

00;44;19;21 - 00;44;24;18
I mean, where this could go,
you've got countries like China and Russia

00;44;24;21 - 00;44;27;21
who are already
who are already doing this, really,

00;44;27;28 - 00;44;31;21
they've got computer systems
who are recording the public, moving

00;44;31;21 - 00;44;35;26
around the biometrics that they're using
to keep track on people that it exists

00;44;35;26 - 00;44;39;18
and they're developing those systems.

00;44;39;21 - 00;44;43;05
India is very active in the biometrics
they're using

00;44;43;08 - 00;44;44;18
and catching their criminals.

00;44;44;18 - 00;44;48;10
I think one case, they just use
Gates analysis and they send somebody

00;44;48;10 - 00;44;51;28
to death row for a rape and murder.

00;44;52;01 - 00;44;55;19
So yeah, other
countries have taken it on board.

00;44;55;19 - 00;44;59;24
But whether it's
they're using it as an ID, I don't know.

00;44;59;24 - 00;45;01;10
But eventually

00;45;01;10 - 00;45;06;21
the computers are going to the artificial
intelligence is going to be so good that

00;45;06;23 - 00;45;07;26
that's going to be used.

00;45;07;26 - 00;45;11;18
But you're always going to need
that human element to keep it honest.

00;45;11;21 - 00;45;14;12
The verification process is important.

00;45;14;12 - 00;45;17;12
So even if you have a computer
which is doing this,

00;45;17;17 - 00;45;21;18
the verify would need to be
a human being to say, Yeah, yeah, right.

00;45;21;20 - 00;45;26;00
Have many of the tools
that you use gotten better over the years,

00;45;26;07 - 00;45;29;20
You know, for data analysis are there

00;45;29;23 - 00;45;33;02
you know, I don't know if just maybe
like the software using for video

00;45;33;02 - 00;45;36;12
or maybe other things
that you are using for analysis

00;45;36;12 - 00;45;39;20
on the on the image for measuring
and things like that.

00;45;39;22 - 00;45;42;10
Are there tools readily available
for people out there?

00;45;42;10 - 00;45;47;28
Well, for what I do, it's the better
the quality that I can see on the screen

00;45;48;00 - 00;45;49;23
that works for me.

00;45;49;23 - 00;45;52;14
So, I'm not taking measurements.

00;45;52;14 - 00;45;57;11
So, the software
that I use allows me to view it.

00;45;57;14 - 00;46;00;13
And as long as I can see it clearly

00;46;00;13 - 00;46;06;00
and I can use Zoom in features, but
I'm not changing anything on the screen,

00;46;06;02 - 00;46;09;12
you know that
that's as good as it gets right now.

00;46;09;14 - 00;46;12;01
But I'm not using anything else,
any other technology.

00;46;12;01 - 00;46;16;09
I mean, I'm sure it'll come,
but right now, it's

00;46;16;11 - 00;46;19;11
if I have a piece of software
that allows me to see that footage,

00;46;19;18 - 00;46;23;12
the best images, I can see it,
then that's, that's what I need.

00;46;23;18 - 00;46;24;01
Okay. Yeah.

00;46;24;01 - 00;46;27;05
So, video software is obviously that the
the both the key

00;46;27;11 - 00;46;32;17
piece of software or tool
that you'll be using for sure.

00;46;32;19 - 00;46;34;15
Let me ask you about

00;46;34;18 - 00;46;35;24
future research.

00;46;35;24 - 00;46;38;00
You obviously did some things
with the University of Toronto,

00;46;38;00 - 00;46;41;22
and I'm wondering,
are you planning on some other things

00;46;41;22 - 00;46;45;14
going forward,
some other interesting areas?

00;46;45;17 - 00;46;50;14
Or let me ask it this way
What areas of data analysis require

00;46;50;16 - 00;46;55;25
more fundamental
testing and experimentation and study?

00;46;55;27 - 00;47;00;07
I just think more research
along the same lines that we've been doing

00;47;00;09 - 00;47;04;12
is to show that, you know,
there's validity to what we're doing,

00;47;04;14 - 00;47;09;03
that, you know, we can see differences
in the way that people walk.

00;47;09;06 - 00;47;12;12
At the end of the day, it's
when we get to the core that, you know,

00;47;12;12 - 00;47;16;07
we're able to educate the court and say,
look, know, what we're seeing here

00;47;16;09 - 00;47;21;05
is there's a clear difference or,
you know, there isn't.

00;47;21;07 - 00;47;23;10
So, you know, it's

00;47;23;10 - 00;47;27;24
it's along those lines, really, because,

00;47;27;27 - 00;47;30;17
as I say, technology gets better
and better.

00;47;30;17 - 00;47;33;17
I think research is going to be involved
with that

00;47;33;24 - 00;47;36;24
to see how reliable that's going to be.

00;47;36;24 - 00;47;38;25
But the research is already being done
right now.

00;47;38;25 - 00;47;42;29
I mean, finding the time to do
it is always,

00;47;43;02 - 00;47;45;22
always an issue. Yes.

00;47;45;22 - 00;47;48;22
You know, I'd like to see in Canada
more Gates

00;47;48;23 - 00;47;53;01
analysts being trained to do this,

00;47;53;04 - 00;47;54;24
you know, and then that's

00;47;54;24 - 00;47;57;24
going to be a good thing,
I think, for the future.

00;47;57;28 - 00;48;02;23
Yeah, I mean, you are being one of the few
or the only one in Canada right now,

00;48;02;25 - 00;48;04;04
I don't. You must be lonely there.

00;48;04;04 - 00;48;06;18
You have no nobody
to nobody to talk to here.

00;48;06;18 - 00;48;09;28
I guess it makes verifications
a little challenging.

00;48;10;05 - 00;48;11;06
So. Yeah.

00;48;11;06 - 00;48;14;24
What kind of I'm curious about trial,
you know,

00;48;14;27 - 00;48;20;11
and challenges from Defense
or from Crown or whatever.

00;48;20;14 - 00;48;24;17
What kinds of things
do they typically ask you?

00;48;24;20 - 00;48;28;20
You know, as you know, as an analyst
or an expert in this area?

00;48;28;22 - 00;48;31;07
Have you ever thrown
you try to throw a curveball?

00;48;31;07 - 00;48;33;01
Is there, something that comes up over
and over.

00;48;33;01 - 00;48;35;21
Just curious
about your experience at trial.

00;48;35;21 - 00;48;39;15
Yeah, well, all my Gates Answers
cases have yet to go to trial.

00;48;39;15 - 00;48;42;15
So, you know, if not, have the

00;48;42;18 - 00;48;46;21
you know, the pleasure
of being first announced announces.

00;48;46;21 - 00;48;50;17
Yes, but it has happened
and it has been accepted in the courts

00;48;50;19 - 00;48;54;16
in the US and UK and here in Canada.

00;48;54;19 - 00;48;58;09
So back in 2009 and British

00;48;58;09 - 00;49;04;06
Columbia was
a case of us is making the case

00;49;04;09 - 00;49;09;00
it was admitted and accepted

00;49;09;02 - 00;49;12;21
is as evidence. So

00;49;12;23 - 00;49;16;25
about do you know
do you know what kind of case that was?

00;49;16;27 - 00;49;19;08
The shooting homicide, I believe.

00;49;19;08 - 00;49;20;14
Okay.

00;49;20;14 - 00;49;23;17
But there was a lot of questions
after that one

00;49;23;18 - 00;49;26;25
as to the way the expert

00;49;26;27 - 00;49;30;02
conducted themselves wasn't the science

00;49;30;02 - 00;49;33;07
of gait analysis, which was the problem.

00;49;33;10 - 00;49;36;05
It was expert
witness testimony in general.

00;49;36;05 - 00;49;40;10
And I think that's
where you really sort of,

00;49;40;13 - 00;49;44;17
you know, sort of on your mettle,
as it would be in the case,

00;49;44;18 - 00;49;48;28
is as an expert, is you're able to explain
exactly what you're doing.

00;49;49;00 - 00;49;52;23
So, the court understands as well as you do

00;49;52;25 - 00;49;54;02
what is being done.

00;49;54;02 - 00;49;55;24
So, if the court doesn't understand

00;49;55;24 - 00;50;00;15
what you're talking about, then
you haven't done your job, even though the

00;50;00;17 - 00;50;03;16
the evidence may be sound
and everybody can see it.

00;50;03;16 - 00;50;07;16
If you can't explain it,
then then that's an issue, right?

00;50;07;16 - 00;50;07;28
It doesn't.

00;50;07;28 - 00;50;10;05
Yeah. Often the that's a very common
theme.

00;50;10;05 - 00;50;12;27
It's not the science or the technology
or whatever.

00;50;12;27 - 00;50;17;01
It's usually the expert and their ability
to even

00;50;17;05 - 00;50;20;06
not only to explain, but
to follow protocol, to like if they're not

00;50;20;06 - 00;50;26;18
following a procedure or some kind of a
a standard like you is doing with the

00;50;26;25 - 00;50;31;08
the Sheffield's is what's called the shift
features gate.

00;50;31;10 - 00;50;34;10
You know that's a cautionary tale
to people who want to get into gates

00;50;34;10 - 00;50;37;10
analysis
forensic analysis is you know you may be

00;50;37;10 - 00;50;41;13
very well versed in in your craft,
but getting to court,

00;50;41;15 - 00;50;42;24
that's a whole different game.

00;50;42;24 - 00;50;44;16
You know, it can be a very lonely place.

00;50;44;16 - 00;50;48;28
So, if you don't know what you're doing
that everything to unravel pretty quickly.

00;50;49;01 - 00;50;50;07
Yeah.

00;50;50;07 - 00;50;52;13
So, for those for those
who do want to start

00;50;52;13 - 00;50;55;13
looking into gait analysis,

00;50;55;16 - 00;50;59;01
you know, as a discipline
that they are interested in, what's

00;50;59;01 - 00;51;01;20
where is the best place
to start right now?

00;51;01;20 - 00;51;07;13
Well, there's a ton of research and there's a ton of information on the Internet.

00;51;07;15 - 00;51;08;27
I'm always available if they

00;51;08;27 - 00;51;13;29
want to talk to me
to get more information.

00;51;14;01 - 00;51;18;08
You know, it's really you need to sort of
where are you right now?

00;51;18;08 - 00;51;19;26
If you're interested in Gates analysis,

00;51;19;26 - 00;51;22;26
what's your level of education
at this current time?

00;51;22;27 - 00;51;25;16
Because you have the Gates analysis
side of it

00;51;25;16 - 00;51;28;16
and then you have
the sort of the whole forensic world.

00;51;28;20 - 00;51;32;04
I'm fortunate
because working in policing and forensic

00;51;32;07 - 00;51;35;07
policing
that I've been exposed to a lot of that.

00;51;35;14 - 00;51;39;24
But most people around the globe,
they're not in my position.

00;51;39;29 - 00;51;45;12
So, the whole sort of the legal side of
it is a huge learning curve for them.

00;51;45;14 - 00;51;49;26
And is there a particular background
that somebody needs to do this?

00;51;49;26 - 00;51;54;05
You sort of answered it at the beginning,
but I'm wondering if there is

00;51;54;08 - 00;51;55;29
an advantage to having a

00;51;55;29 - 00;51;59;26
background sort of like you have
because you are studying,

00;51;59;28 - 00;52;01;13
you know, things like the mechanics

00;52;01;13 - 00;52;04;13
and a lot of different things
related to the body.

00;52;04;16 - 00;52;06;17
So, what would you suggest there?

00;52;06;17 - 00;52;11;13
Yeah, if you have a background,
a general understanding of body mechanics,

00;52;11;16 - 00;52;14;16
you know, biomechanics,
that's a good place to start.

00;52;14;17 - 00;52;18;03
But even there are case analysis out there

00;52;18;03 - 00;52;23;00
whose background is in video,
the video analysis.

00;52;23;03 - 00;52;26;20
So, it doesn't have too necessarily be,
you know, your background

00;52;26;20 - 00;52;29;20
solely in the way that people move

00;52;29;25 - 00;52;32;15
human biomechanics.

00;52;32;15 - 00;52;37;01
You know, you have an understanding
and be able to do those comparisons.

00;52;37;03 - 00;52;37;20
Okay.

00;52;37;20 - 00;52;41;20
Hey, if somebody wants to get
a hold of you, you are on.

00;52;41;23 - 00;52;44;16
Yes. And it's public profile.

00;52;44;16 - 00;52;45;11
Could I show it?

00;52;45;11 - 00;52;47;17
I don't know if you mind. Yeah,
that's fine.

00;52;47;17 - 00;52;48;22
Okay. I'm just going to put it up here.

00;52;48;22 - 00;52;52;28
But if you are interested
in sending a message to Nick here

00;52;53;00 - 00;52;56;15
on LinkedIn, and I know

00;52;56;17 - 00;53;00;08
it sounds like you've done
some work for other agencies as well,

00;53;00;08 - 00;53;04;13
they probably come to peel and ask you
maybe for some advice sometime soon.

00;53;04;15 - 00;53;05;08
Yes. Yes.

00;53;05;08 - 00;53;10;10
I've worked with many different agencies
throughout Canada

00;53;10;13 - 00;53;11;20
and it's gaining traction.

00;53;11;20 - 00;53;13;26
I'm getting more and more work.

00;53;13;26 - 00;53;18;07
Oh, I'm sure, because I don't
I don't think people know where to go. So,

00;53;18;10 - 00;53;21;03
you know, they're probably looking for
people and, you know, unless they know

00;53;21;03 - 00;53;23;15
you personally or know
somebody who knows you personally,

00;53;23;15 - 00;53;27;16
they probably don't realize that,
you know, it's available to them.

00;53;27;16 - 00;53;30;10
So, yeah, Nick is here on LinkedIn.

00;53;30;10 - 00;53;32;21
And Nick, look, thank you very much.

00;53;32;21 - 00;53;34;12
I really appreciate your time.

00;53;34;12 - 00;53;36;17
It's an interesting topic
that I haven't addressed before.

00;53;36;17 - 00;53;37;09
And again, you know,

00;53;37;09 - 00;53;40;03
as you can tell, are having a hard time
trying to even find people.

00;53;40;03 - 00;53;43;10
It sounds like there's
just a small community of great analysts

00;53;43;10 - 00;53;44;02
around the world.

00;53;44;02 - 00;53;47;11
And like you said,
hopefully it's going to grow.

00;53;47;13 - 00;53;48;22
Yeah, I hope so, too.

00;53;48;22 - 00;53;51;20
It's going to be interesting
what happens in the future.

00;53;51;20 - 00;53;53;25
Thank you. Well, thank you again.

00;53;53;25 - 00;53;56;18
Hang back for a second
and then I'll come back and chat with you.

00;53;56;18 - 00;53;59;18
Okay, great. Thank you, Larry. Cheers.

00;53;59;20 - 00;54;01;02
So, folks, thank you very much.

00;54;01;02 - 00;54;04;02
Happy Thursday and we will see you soon.

00;54;04;03 - 00;54;05;00
Take care. Bye.