Forensics Talks
Forensics Talks is a series of interviews with Forensic Professionals from different disciplines around the globe. Learn about science, technology and important cases where Forensic Science has played an important role.
Forensics Talks
Forensics Ghana | Ep. 38 | Yahaya Sumara Sulley
Forensics Ghana | Forensics Talks Ep. 38 | Yahaya Sumara Sulley | July 15, 2021
Yahaya Sumara Sulley is a Forensic Science Educator and a Senior Research Assistant in the Forensic Science Department of the University for Development Studies (UDS), Tamale-Ghana . His recent paper outlines how forensic science has gone "dark" in Ghana and many citizens are not aware of the hope that forensic science brings to solving crimes and bringing justice to society. Join us as we discuss the development and state of forensic science in Ghana.
Originally aired on: July 15, 2021
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00:00:30:18 - 00:00:36:17
Eugene
Yahaya. Thank you so much for being here today. And thank you so much for taking your evening to speak to us.
00:00:37:22 - 00:00:38:28
Yahaya
Thank you too Eugene.
00:00:40:02 - 00:01:00:20
Eugene
Well, unfortunately, I missed you at the Canadian Society of Forensic Science Conference. We tried to get you there, but I saw your prerecorded presentation, and that's part of the reason why I wanted to interview you and speak to you, because it was a very, I have to say, it was a very sincere and honest and open presentation
00:01:01:01 - 00:01:15:06
Eugene
about the sort of the state of forensics in Ghana. And I think it's a pretty rare opportunity for many people because you're very much at the beginning, I think, of something of a very long journey, let's say.
00:01:17:28 - 00:01:39:00
Eugene
Yeah, for sure. So I want to ask you about yourself first and maybe tell us a little bit about yourself, your maybe your into in your interest, like where did your interest in forensics come from? And, you know, maybe some of your studies and what why are you becoming like an advocate for forensics in Ghana.
00:01:40:11 - 00:02:07:03
Yahaya
Yeah. First of all, I'm not actually from Ghana. And I was born and bred in the greater Accra region. Carly Simon, and I did my preschool all in I Simonon Senior High School. I went to the Brong-Ahafo region to do my shs and then the university.
00:02:07:03 - 00:02:36:15
Yahaya
I came to the northern edge of Ghana back at shs. I think I identified myself to me as a love of rule and justice. And I think growing up, I tend to be an advocate for justice and looking at my background in science as taking a purely scientific background in a university, which is biotechnology.
00:02:36:27 - 00:03:09:07
Yahaya
I decided to get toward an aspect of science that really deals with justice delivery. So at the university I realized that there is actually a way to juxtapose my personality or my dreams into something that I want to do in the future. So I realized the forensic science was the future.
00:03:09:23 - 00:03:34:16
Yahaya
So I started asking questions that, you know, online, looking for lectures, who had interest in forensic science. So I realized my current supervisor was the one taking our final years through a forensic science course. I started contacting here.
00:03:34:29 - 00:03:54:19
Yahaya
I made contact with some of the. Who is in the field of forensic science in Ghana. You know, Dr. Norman has a PhD in Forensic Science, but then he's currently not in Ghana. He's trying there, you know, to investigate.
00:03:54:22 - 00:04:16:04
Yahaya
I contacted him because I read this article on the history of forensic science, because I was, at that time, searching for scholarly literature on Forensic Science in Ghana was even difficult. So I realized that this was because I tried communicating with many and he gave me positive feedback so with that and then with that of my current supervisor who is Dr. Lydia Ponza.
00:04:16:06 - 00:04:35:21
Yahaya
I think I had the inspiration that knows hope. And then in the future I could do something great in this field that I'm trying to develop a passion for, that their passion grew up admiring.
00:04:36:10 - 00:04:56:18
Yahaya
And finally, I took a project to work in forensic sciences, which has got me excited. So I decided to assess the state of forensic supports, do criminal investigations in Ghana. First of all, I did primary background check ups.
00:04:56:18 - 00:05:13:22
Yahaya
And I did some surveys and I realized that before we do anything, we need to get this information first. So I started it down here, and then at the end of the day, I came out with an interesting thesis.
00:05:13:22 - 00:05:27:12
Yahaya
And then I think on the day of my presentation, all the members of the panel that excited and then they were happy to encourage me to carry on with it. That's passion. And then I will do great. And yeah.
00:05:31:12 - 00:05:59:19
Eugene
That. That sums it up pretty well. Yeah. Yeah. Well, but can I ask you about. If I can ask you just about Ghana in general for many viewers. Obviously, it's a country in West Africa. But what is the current state of, for example, the different types of crimes that are performed in in Ghana, maybe
00:05:59:19 - 00:06:18:06
Eugene
versus other places? The population density in some cities, things like this, like what? What are some of the crimes? And then I'd like to ask you after that is talk about how the justice system generally works, but maybe let's start with the types of crimes that are typical in Ghana.
00:06:19:05 - 00:06:53:07
Yahaya
Yeah, Ghana is a country currently that the recent statistics shows that we are about 18 million. And then the population density with regards to specific cities in the country, I think over the years it has increased and this has been as a result of business and commerciality again because people are interested in business.
00:06:53:08 - 00:07:13:04
Yahaya
Some people come in from neighboring countries and they come to engage in business. Some of them remain. And then people living in that country from rural areas and engage in urban migration, they go into the cities and then they remain there.
00:07:13:04 - 00:07:34:15
Yahaya
So does that ended up increasing the population density over their city's major cities? Does Accra and Kumasi and even Kampala is now becoming one of the. Well, I think I'm in populated cities in the country. So specifically, Greater Accra is very populated.
00:07:34:15 - 00:07:56:01
Yahaya
And then there is that diversity. The diversity is there because people coming from different regions of the country tend to head towards the greater gaijin based on their business opportunities over there. So this, as a result, has influenced a whole lot of things.
00:07:56:01 - 00:08:25:12
Yahaya
Some people have gained revenue as a result, so I'm deprived and content match problems such as the increased population has influenced the rate of crimes in the in the capital city of Ghana and it does increase the state of crimes and crimes that are committed in Ghana, including most recently cybercrime is the worst of all.
00:08:25:12 - 00:08:44:04
Yahaya
And then murders are being committed to provide resources at a slow pace. Murders are there's slow pace compared to other countries but are most prominent among their crimes are cybercrime crimes.
00:08:44:20 - 00:08:52:16
Eugene
I wanted to ask you about that because I remember you mentioning that in your presentation. What kinds of examples? Like what kind of food crimes are there?
00:08:52:26 - 00:09:31:24
Yahaya
Yeah. Food is there's no tracing. Mislabeling and then substitution where people tend to adulterate food and similar. But then a similar substance is some of them are not. Some of them are not good. What is this? Then you take in these foods and then it ends up giving you adversity based on the toxicology of the whole process.
00:09:31:24 - 00:09:54:14
Yahaya
Yeah. So it gives you toxicological effects. So foods such as the milk honey and then groundnut paste all of them. I mean, I do agree that with the cheap and less prized commodities without adverse toxicological effects on the individuals who take them.
00:09:55:00 - 00:10:12:07
Yahaya
So food crimes and then cybercrimes are. I mean is topmost. And then and we have the burglary. We have the burglary; we have the corruption and white-collar crimes. Yeah, we have.
00:10:14:00 - 00:10:15:07
Eugene
Our gangs, the.
00:10:15:14 - 00:10:44:09
Yahaya
Kidnaping gangs. They use the trade, the production, and then the use of illicit drugs, drug counterfeiting. These are the major crimes in society. Murders are there. It is easy. It is not that you can compare the rates of murders in Ghana to that of countries in the global north.
00:10:44:29 - 00:11:03:06
Yahaya
Okay. In some countries like Colombia, no. But in the cybercrime, food crimes, we have the crime, food crimes, burglary, corruption. And yeah, they are very prominent in the country.
00:11:03:27 - 00:11:22:08
Eugene
What kind of resources do the police have in terms of forensics and where, like, for example, forensics labs in Ghana right now, where like, how many are there? Where are they located and what kind of capabilities do they have?
00:11:23:26 - 00:11:53:22
Yahaya
Yeah. Ghana. I mean, Ghana is blessed to have an ultra-modern forensic science laboratory, which was refurbished in 2011 as a result of a flagship program with the Ghana police and then the European Union, and then made 3 million funding for the establishment of that particular laboratory.
00:11:54:01 - 00:12:16:11
Yahaya
And then that laboratory is one of its kind in the West African subregion. So the laboratories core units include a chemistry unit. We have DNA. We have a photography. We have the document analysis, and then we have ballistics and firearms.
00:12:16:18 - 00:12:46:22
Yahaya
So this forensic science unit is the only forensic laboratory serving all the 16 regions in Ghana. And even though it is ultra-modern, comparing that is looking at our population and then the number of police units in the country as compared to the forensic units in the country, you realize that even if.
00:12:47:14 - 00:13:06:21
Yahaya
We are utilizing forensic science properly in Ghana, there'll always be case backlog because the cases are coming in from all over the country to one. To only one forensic science unit, which has as of 2019, about only less than 50 staff.
00:13:08:10 - 00:13:30:06
Yahaya
How do we handle issues with all forensic needs? Yeah, forensic science we need. We are blessed to have a forensic science unit. However, it is only one, and it is the only one serving all of us 661 police units in across the country.
00:13:30:06 - 00:13:45:11
Yahaya
So I would say we have the forensic science units ultramodern over. Looking at the statistics, it is not. It is not something we can boost of.
00:13:45:27 - 00:13:49:07
Eugene
Right, right. I understand. But where and sorry, where is it located?
00:13:49:21 - 00:14:11:18
Yahaya
It is located in the greater Accra region, the capital city of Ghana, and specifically colloquially on the Olusegun Obasanjo streets. And yeah, it is right. It is opposite the BNI, Bureau of National Investigations.
00:14:11:24 - 00:14:33:11
Eugene
I see. And when it comes to forensics, then what about the education of people like the police, for example, like when they get to a crime scene, do they understand, you know, like in terms of the way they collect evidence or whatever, like what kind of training do they get or do they have at their disposal?
00:14:35:21 - 00:15:11:24
Yahaya
Yeah. Basically, the requirement for one to join the Ghana Police Service is a senior high school certificate and. And I believe that is, as we said to the kids, that first degree and other diploma, you can have a masters degree or PhD. However, they all undergo the same training at first until they are passed.
00:15:11:24 - 00:15:46:29
Yahaya
And then they put them into the various departments. Now, this police service has almost all the time relied on traditional policing strategies which are relying on eyewitness testimony, tip offs. And then so it is very it is something that is the introduction of forensic science is something that is present.
00:15:47:02 - 00:16:10:27
Yahaya
And in modern forensic science that is very recent. And I think we have crime scene investigators in the police department who go to crime scenes to collect or recover evidence and work with them. However, most of the people in their service are not given that training.
00:16:11:13 - 00:16:33:11
Yahaya
I think the crime scene investigators have specific training that they undergo. Other people in the police who are not crime investigators might be given basic ideas about how to manage crime scenes. However, as to whether they are giving full forensic training.
00:16:34:02 - 00:17:09:27
Yahaya
That one is something I don't really know. But in looking at most of the people in the police department who have limited knowledge of operating in these times, there is a possibility that inclusion of forensic science courses in the training or doing the training is not something that is at that level to give them that
00:17:09:27 - 00:17:26:26
Yahaya
idea of what forensic science practice is. So actually they do not learn. They do not learn like they are learning as forensic scientist I them they might give you some ideas because they are they can read the police department.
00:17:27:05 - 00:17:54:05
Yahaya
We might have some ideas about what forensic science is. However, some of them are lacking, especially those with the traffic and then motor department. What then specifically? When I was carrying my project, I encountered a few of them as at that time I didn't know what a forensic science unit was.
00:17:54:18 - 00:18:08:06
Yahaya
So I was asking. I think that these people are from the police department, and they would be aware of the way of forensic science is. I asked a few of them and they said they don't even know what forensic science is.
00:18:08:21 - 00:18:27:18
Yahaya
So if someone in the police department is telling you that he doesn’t know what forensic science is, then there is a possibility that a lot of them in the actually lacking or not having adequate information about forensic science.
00:18:27:27 - 00:18:52:28
Yahaya
I have gone to police there is as a crime scene investigation department that are called upon whenever a crime occurred and then they go to that crime scene to recover evidence and do all of that, and then possibly to the extent that they extend extended to the activity to the lab, and that is that is what is done.
00:18:53:11 - 00:19:06:15
Eugene
And what about the general population? Do they is forensic science what they see on CSI Miami or on they see on TV? Or is that something they understand?
00:19:07:07 - 00:19:33:03
Yahaya
Yeah. And the CSI effect is very real. And when you are communicating with people, they tend to give you those who think they have an idea about forensics. And actually, then to give you that big picture of CSI movies, what happens in the CSI Miami, Black Lives, 24, and all those movies that the.
00:19:34:21 - 00:19:58:27
Yahaya
Most of them actually think that the forensic sciences, the dumb man goes to their crimes and himself recovers the evidence and the lab logs on it. Within 6 hours he's done it, brings out the proof, the appropriate desires that most of the people think that is what forensic science is. Actually the CSI effect is working
00:19:58:28 - 00:20:16:12
Yahaya
But then. These people also, you realize that they are getting all the ideas from documentaries on movies and those who rely on literature to understand what forensic science actually is. People who are interested in pursuing forensic matters in the future.
00:20:17:11 - 00:20:41:08
Yahaya
And then these people are almost from the science. Faculties of high-level education realize that even people who are not in the high-level addictions, the universities, they are having limited knowledge with regards to forensic science. So someone in this high school is telling him about forensic science.
00:20:41:19 - 00:20:58:04
Yahaya
He doesn’t have an ideology that tells him that's okay. Do you watch a movie? You pick someone's fingerprint at the crime scene. They show. They do it. They do this. They do that. Is a database they projected. Then they find out that this person’s education.
00:20:58:08 - 00:21:21:00
Yahaya
Okay. And watch a movie like that before. By then, I don't know that this is what you call forensic science. You realize that there are lacking that aspect of education at the eye level. Had it not been the idea. Had it not been true movies or true documentaries.
00:21:21:08 - 00:21:50:19
Yahaya
Most of them would not end up. But then the issue is that people tend to rely on movies and documentaries to have an idea of forensic science. They tend to misunderstand what forensic science actually is. There was for most of them after watching these CSI movies and they think forensic science is there is a course. It's a generalized course.
00:21:50:19 - 00:22:15:10
Yahaya
Like one for any scientist is capable of engaging in all forms of forensic science investigation, just like a general doctor. But then they forget that the forensic sciences are a specialized course where each and every one is a specialist in this area, and then they are called upon to come and give assistance whenever an
00:22:15:10 - 00:22:41:17
Yahaya
issue of forensic need arises. Through the issue of forensic science, education is actually. It is also growing up, just like there is the discipline itself It is untapped in the countries. The issue of language education is kind of in between. We are struggling to promote more entities and then we are trying to make it stable.
00:22:42:20 - 00:23:05:03
Yahaya
Because I currently realize that it's a university that offering forensic science programs in Ghana have the University of Cape Coast who is doing the degree program. We have the University of Miami, University of Science and Technology, which is doing a postgraduate.
00:23:05:04 - 00:23:29:29
Yahaya
And we have the university developments. That is who is doing our graduate course. So, I mean, when we have more institutions trying to hear and I think one of the new universities in in the Upper East Region, which is formally UDS Navrongo campus.
00:23:29:29 - 00:23:59:24
Yahaya
I heard they are also trying to mount a forensic science program. So if this is being done, when more schools are introducing forensic science programs, we will get more people to pursue that program and only to influence the number of the personnel in the country and then to influence policy in the future.
00:23:59:25 - 00:24:04:02
Yahaya
Yeah. So far as education is emerging; however, there is a hope.
00:24:04:28 - 00:24:20:29
Eugene
Yeah. Can I ask you I want to ask you about the study or the paper that you did on the state of forensic support to criminal investigations in Ghana. And what I guess I would ask, like, what was the idea or the concept before you began?
00:24:21:06 - 00:24:32:16
Eugene
Obviously, you wanted to sort of how do you say get a status report of what is happening in Ghana, but why was that so important?
00:24:34:10 - 00:25:07:00
Yahaya
Yeah. Over the years. A lot of crimes are being committed in. We have waited for the outcomes of these crimes. We have waited to see the actual perpetrators of these crimes. However, this system has made it in such a way that is waited for so long.
00:25:08:06 - 00:25:34:17
Yahaya
So if you look at. These cases, they are the same cases that occur in other countries. They dig deeper, they utilize the necessary protocols, and they bring their people involved in these crimes to justice. However in Ghana, it is
00:25:36:16 - 00:26:01:15
Yahaya
A different situation. A lot of popular personalities and unpopular personalities have been murdered in cold blood in Ghana. They are killers are not being found. A lot of crimes are being committed, both corporate crimes, white collar crimes are being committed outright that the details of these crimes have not been found.
00:26:02:29 - 00:26:26:13
Yahaya
We have issues of accidents, failures. We have fire is explosion that I've been linked to. Arsons is still not founded actual perpetrators of these crimes. We have issues of food adulteration. We have bushfires all over. We have cybercrimes.
00:26:26:15 - 00:26:47:24
Yahaya
We've still not found actual perpetrators of these crimes. So I realize that. If this is the state of crimes in Ghana, before that, I never knew there was a forensic science unit in Ghana. So I have that realizing there is a forensic unit in Ghana.
00:26:47:26 - 00:27:04:08
Yahaya
Then I said, for instance, where does this nice forensic science do? Where does this and all these crimes are being committed and we don't find actual perpetrator of this crime. Then the state of forensic science needs to be investigated.
00:27:05:08 - 00:27:26:09
Yahaya
We need to investigate to see right now what are the problems we are facing with our forensic units? What are the issues with regards to the forensic personnel? Is it an issue of resources? Is it legislation? Is it dedication? Is it governance?
00:27:26:10 - 00:27:48:03
Yahaya
Is it, what is there? Is it what is the problem? So. This is what drives their drive. This is what generated their drive towards the project. So I took a step further and went into search for the forensic science unit.
00:27:48:22 - 00:28:10:26
Yahaya
I went there. I had a conversation with some of them, especially, one of my senior colleagues now DSP, Alexander Watson, and he is the one. I don't know whether he has not been promoted he’s asp immanuel.
00:28:11:12 - 00:28:48:07
Yahaya
So they guided me geting more information about forensic science in Ghana? It gave me information about how their laboratory operates. They gave me information about the resources they have, what they don't have, and. At the end of the day, I realized that there were more problems with regards to service provision that legislation, governance, and even
00:28:48:09 - 00:29:24:03
Yahaya
education. I realized that these were the root causes and resources, the root causes of the problems we have in regard to forensic science in Ghana. Because if forensic science is seen as a priority, issues of legislation, education, governance, service provision will be tackled because in the normal Ghanaian and up to 600 Ghana cedis a month and is supposed to
00:29:24:03 - 00:29:46:10
Yahaya
pay a fee for service both forensic. People of forensic service at 2000 Ghana cedis then. It is in proportion to it because the person who does decide to keep the issue at home and not call operates because he doesn't have money.
00:29:47:28 - 00:30:15:29
Yahaya
Uh huh. So forensic science is seen as a priority. If it is seen as a priority, then some of these issues can be solved. The issues of fee for service will be solved. Issues of legislation where you initially wanted to ask about a justice. They realized that Ghana, the main legislative documents is the 1992 Constitution.
00:30:15:29 - 00:30:44:26
Yahaya
And this constitution is the document. That's we rely on legislature and our peers say that's important for forensic science. They wrote a review of forensic science in Ghana. It was detailed in this review that the issue of legislation is that of the problems of forensic science in Ghana.
00:30:45:09 - 00:31:09:09
Yahaya
And you realize that in the Constitution there is this act in Section five and Article 18 and 19 informing people about evidence, recovery, evidence gathering privately and all of that. You realize that in that section and in that advocate classes that are kind of.
00:31:11:01 - 00:31:37:29
Yahaya
Not giving way for the other to operate, basically because the issue of privacy, people have, they are private. They are issues. They are supposed to have. They are private. So if someone is to be interrogated or to be investigated, any claims is private, then there is no need.
00:31:37:29 - 00:32:05:00
Yahaya
So it is a case where someone's. Uh. I think I'm on his mobile phone. Was not give you an odd basically because of this issue of privacy. So you realize that there is legislation is also part of the issues of the challenges that forensic science is facing in Ghana.
00:32:05:04 - 00:32:22:21
Yahaya
So it's kind of the people appreciate it, however. There are root causes which need to be tackled to pave way for the growth and development of the discipline in the country.
00:32:22:28 - 00:32:39:15
Eugene
Right. Right. Can I ask you I want to show you something here. I'll bring it up here. But it was a I guess it was like a survey that you did with different people. And so I wanted to ask you about this particular graph that you put in your report and maybe.
00:32:39:15 - 00:32:42:26
Eugene
Well, I'll let you I'll let you describe it and what it means.
00:32:43:21 - 00:33:05:02
Yahaya
Yeah. So it was a pie chart. And that was indicating the response of the respondents of that in a survey was conducted to look at the awareness, the general awareness about the state of forensic support of criminal investigations in Ghana.
00:33:06:16 - 00:33:35:18
Yahaya
So now you see that they are part of these dots, which has an ash color with 16 people. Based on the respondents, 88% is telling us that these people said forensic science is very bad. You can see that it's from a like it's good, bad and very bad.
00:33:35:18 - 00:33:59:02
Yahaya
So it is sad that forensic science is very bad in Ghana and most of them were giving reasons such as they don't know about forensic science. Some of them said they don't trust the institution that is operating the forensic science unit, the Ghana Police Service based on institution, not trust previous events.
00:33:59:02 - 00:34:20:01
Yahaya
Some of them are in contact with the Ghana Police Service claim that police are involved in issues with regards to mistrust and dishonesty. Also, even the forensic science unit is being operated by the Ghana Police Service. Then what shows that they will be working based on morality and ethics?
00:34:21:03 - 00:34:45:06
Yahaya
So we went ahead and then we had about 163 out of the total population, which represented 82% saying that forensic science, the state of forensic science in Ghana is bad. And they were giving similarities in regard to the as compared to just like those who are given reasons that it is very bad.
00:34:45:24 - 00:35:12:14
Yahaya
So most of them said we don’t even have schools that are promoting the forensic science discipline that and that clearly shows how unaware people were about forensics. Because I was at the time, I was conducting the study, we had the implementation of science and technology and the University of it was offering forensic science programs to the people who
00:35:13:11 - 00:35:42:17
Yahaya
are now on our way and on telling people about the experience in Ghana. So you had to look at those. And then we finally had a few people who, as in at least it is good because if we have a forensic science unit in Ghana that is good. They were just trying to speak based on hope that
00:35:43:06 - 00:36:09:29
Yahaya
is at least we have a forensic science unit in Ghana and then in the future it will help. And most of these people were people who had enlightened, they had secular education, the elites of the society. And then they had an idea of our friends that they were not looking at the negative aspects of its agenda, were
00:36:09:29 - 00:36:43:06
Yahaya
looking at a brighter future. You realize that most of the people who fall within the orange. Section where people who come in from areas with its population density, areas where crimes are normally okay. Area is some areas, and these people are those who are mostly affected with crimes, and they were also those who had seen forensic
00:36:43:06 - 00:37:10:00
Yahaya
science. The state of forensic science is bad right out from the general practice. The oppression, the education and all of that. They were trying to say that if forensic science, if the state of forensic sciences is good in Ghana, most of them for the state of readiness that is within Ghana, then a lot of people who are being put
00:37:10:00 - 00:37:28:16
Yahaya
behind bars will have been incarcerated, will have to be exonerated because some of them are being put behind bars without actually knowing that crimes they have committed. Some of them were just arrested and sent to jail basically because of their appearance.
00:37:30:10 - 00:37:49:23
Yahaya
So there is no evidence to actually pin them down to a specific crime by design. They are behind bars for anything is actually working. And the people of the street are saying that forensic science is in Ghana. If you have a forensic science unit in Ghana.
00:37:49:23 - 00:38:04:12
Yahaya
And we have our people behind bars without committing any crime, any state of our own is dangerous. But that is not the outcome. That is all towards the chats mean.
00:38:05:00 - 00:38:29:03
Eugene
So you mentioned a few things in terms of like there are some repeated themes here that you have been discussing. For example, education was one of them, staffing was another one. You know, the fact that there's only one lab that's servicing a whole country, which it doesn't sound like it's practical, that you can only handle so much
00:38:29:19 - 00:38:48:27
Eugene
casework through something like that. What would you say is the most. What is what is going to give you the biggest bang for your buck? Let's say this way. What's probably the most important factor for you in seeing the changes start or really pushing forensic science ahead in Ghana?
00:38:52:29 - 00:39:25:19
Yahaya
As I said earlier on, it is a matter of prioritization. If forensic science is then prioritized and if it is going to be prioritized, then it is a matter of policy making. So if the policymakers are able to look at forensic science with that lens that we those interested in their discipline or reduce in their discipline, look
00:39:25:19 - 00:39:56:17
Yahaya
at it with it. Then they would definitely have to prioritize it. And if they prioritize forensic science, just as they prioritize health and well-being, just as they are, prioritize the issues of infectious diseases. Just like the way we had the incidence of COVID 19, and other issues related to health, then the governments have been in a head to
00:39:56:17 - 00:40:25:08
Yahaya
try to prevent this. Now the government is able to see their needs for justice, peace, and strong institutions. Then I think they will prioritize forensic science and meet with this prioritization to it will lead to the creation of more forensic science laboratories in the country.
00:40:25:29 - 00:40:52:07
Yahaya
It will lead to the establishment of more forensic science departments in universities. It will lead to the amendment of the legislative documents that the forensic sciences can make based on its need to the restrictions of the organizational structure by the forensic science.
00:40:54:11 - 00:41:32:00
Yahaya
Discipline falls in where we can allow private forensic science institutions to handle case works, provide to reports, and serve as expert witness records, rather than relying on the one institution which is Ghana Police Service, doing everything on their own and not allowing private institutions to handle findings that these cases then add on or unless it
00:41:32:00 - 00:41:59:15
Yahaya
has passed through the Ministry of Justice before, you will be able to be accepted as a forensic. That is not true. Where does it end and all this? So the issue is the law is that there is no decentralization, and this is not allowing people to operate freely just like that, as stated in the review in countries
00:41:59:15 - 00:42:33:11
Yahaya
like Scotland. The Scottish Police Service is they have other police services that also operate within their country, and they are able to work on cases and this reduces the burden of the state police, and it also opens up to issues which require the truth and the truth, because over here we are working we are working with independent
00:42:33:11 - 00:42:56:06
Yahaya
bodies. So you realize that even in the in the review office, that there's people that in terms of arrest, in terms of arrest, these are people who are and that us was in the country. So people like these there are issues that require investigations.
00:42:56:21 - 00:43:11:04
Yahaya
This person is an untouchable person now due to recover evidence from him. So when it is, this institution does not believe that it is the main law enforcement agency in the country. That's all it is. It belongs to the state.
00:43:11:15 - 00:43:31:10
Yahaya
And how do the honors, integrity, and ethics play? What role does it play in investigating a private person? So there is an independent body that is investigating. The issues of this sort will not be handled the way we used to handle them.
00:43:31:11 - 00:43:39:21
Yahaya
Then the transparency will be there. So untouchable is our business that it will not be touched on. Really?
00:43:41:08 - 00:43:57:29
Eugene
Yeah, that's a great point. That's a very good point. How does how does Ghana how does Ghana compare to the. Neighboring countries like Togo, Burkina Faso, Cote d'Ivoire, like is, are they? Do you know if they are in a similar state?
00:43:57:29 - 00:44:00:24
Eugene
If they are better? If they're worse? How do you compare?
00:44:01:13 - 00:44:30:03
Yahaya
Well, it's interesting. The issue is that we have limited information with regards to issues of forensic science from these is in an even deeper knowledge because they are francophone countries and we had heard information even though we are close, and I think that they are going because they communicate in French.
00:44:31:09 - 00:44:48:20
Yahaya
And you also communicate in English but then. If the information is telling us that the existing units in Ghana is ultra-modern one and it is one of its kind in the whole of the West African subregion, then it means.
00:44:50:24 - 00:44:59:10
Yahaya
And this is the state of Ghana. In other countries, it's very bad.
00:44:59:16 - 00:45:04:03
Eugene
Yeah, maybe. Yeah. You may have a point there for sure.
00:45:04:23 - 00:45:37:25
Yahaya
Over here in our institution for the exercise program, we introduce the French language as part of the courses to be taken by students. The idea is that in the future, when there are issues of rising need in our neighboring countries because of the deplorable state of forensic science in the West African region, they can rely on forensic
00:45:37:25 - 00:46:06:03
Yahaya
sciences in Ghana, which skills set in languages which are based on Milia, which require familiarity, and then they can call on foreign scientists from Ghana to come and help or assist in cases in these countries. Because we are neighbors, and we can't benefit from something without giving them a share of it.
00:46:06:03 - 00:46:12:28
Yahaya
So we need to include training so that when the benefits are coming, our neighbors will also get some.
00:46:13:17 - 00:46:30:24
Eugene
Right. Right. Yeah, for sure you are. You're a member of what's called the GA scientific, right? So it's like an organization that promotes education in the STEM areas. Is that true? But what what's your what's your role there?
00:46:31:25 - 00:46:54:17
Yahaya
Yeah, I'm a member and I don't have an executive role to play. However the role of the GA scientific, as you said, is this scientific society that promotes STEM education. And they help many members of the scientific benefits in many ways.
00:46:55:01 - 00:47:21:14
Yahaya
They organize workshops online because they have members across the country. And due to COVID 19 and issues of transportation, you can all converge on their online platform. They will give tips or education on one thing or the other. And also as a member you will benefit from career guidance.
00:47:22:03 - 00:47:50:18
Yahaya
Those will benefit from grants and other opportunities. So recently I was the founder of the Forensic Science Outreach Ghana, and recently we had our Mayday Symposium rights in the University for Development that is pilot campus. And I was being funded and supported by GA Scientific.
00:47:50:18 - 00:48:13:06
Yahaya
So that is also some of the things they do to promote science. Communication in government would include a need to promote forensic science so that people are aware. Forensic science is a discipline, and it is an untapped area. And we need to explore.
00:48:13:15 - 00:48:23:22
Eugene
Right now for sure. And you what about there's there is the Forensic Science Society of Ghana as well. Yeah. Is that you're a member of that too.
00:48:24:11 - 00:48:54:18
Yahaya
Yeah, I was a member by name and I'm an executive officer. I was a member as at the time I was about graduating from the university. So a year later. A mentor nominated me. They nominated me for my secretary position and then I was appointed as the secretary position.
00:48:54:18 - 00:49:23:24
Yahaya
And I am playing the role of the vice secretary position and the forensic science society of Ghana also is a scientific body that promotes forensic science awareness, education practice. So the body of the society consist of forensic scientist students in forensic science.
00:49:24:23 - 00:49:57:22
Yahaya
People in related scientific disciplines who are interested in forensic science and others. And then they also have engagements such as online conferences. They also give grants to people interested in forensic science projects. And we also engage in social.
00:49:58:25 - 00:50:19:04
Yahaya
We also play role in a social media engagement because now it is that is the one of the mediums of propagating or communicating information. So we are the social media platforms where we try to engage people virtually in Ghana. And then there is.
00:50:21:03 - 00:50:47:09
Yahaya
With the intention that the Forensic Science Society of Ghana will be that bigger body with regards to forensic science practice and then also in terms of organizations, it will be that bigger in Ghana and then it will help in solving most of the challenges with regards to forensic science in Ghana.
00:50:47:19 - 00:50:51:10
Yahaya
Okay. Well, that is yeah, that is basic idea of forensic science society.
00:50:51:10 - 00:51:10:07
Eugene
I do I have I have one main question I really last that I want to ask you, and that is if because this came up actually during the presentation at the site of forensic science, but there were people in the in the chat window and Q&A asking what can we do to help?
00:51:10:07 - 00:51:29:12
Eugene
So there was, you know, is there anything are there any partnerships or is there anything that people from outside of Ghana can help you with? And I don't know if that's something, but I would open it up here in case somebody is listening to this this interview, and if they can help or if it helps, raises awareness
00:51:29:12 - 00:51:47:05
Eugene
or, I don't know, international exchanges, but students and education, things like this, I don't know if that's something that is possible, but I would just I would just say, you know, if I think there are people who are willing to assist, let's say.
00:51:47:05 - 00:51:53:12
Eugene
And yeah, but if you see any opportunities or any openings, it'd be interesting to know what those might be.
00:51:55:00 - 00:52:19:09
Yahaya
Yeah, that's a very great point. And I've been expecting this opportunity for a very long time. And for me it is to my rights as I've been writing a lot of articles on the forensic science and even in my disease, I tried to make these recommendations and looking at the deplorable state of forensic science in Ghana,
00:52:20:20 - 00:52:47:21
Yahaya
if we don't get the interventions to do and core forensic science practice in Ghana. It wouldn’t be a nice scene in the future because if you look at where forensic science comes from starting from the fingerprinting in 1948 down to.
00:52:50:24 - 00:53:18:00
Yahaya
Changes, relocations, and then all of that relies upon the forensic science practices. It's not new in Ghana. And it has changed over the years as a result of globalization and technology now. We are privileged to have an ultra-modern forensic science unit in Ghana.
00:53:19:08 - 00:53:51:24
Yahaya
We are privileged to have some universities trying their best to educate people to become the next generation of professionals in forensic science in Ghana. However, if you look at these two institutions that I've mentioned for forensic science unit and education, you realize that there is an issue, one particular issue, and it is very, very similar to move.
00:53:52:28 - 00:54:14:21
Yahaya
Limit staffing. You're going to do the forensic science departments. Of universities. There's limited staffing. If you go to the forensic science unit, there's a limited staff in there. Does that mean how do we get more forensic science laboratories created in other regions?
00:54:14:22 - 00:54:28:29
Yahaya
You create them and you don't get people to do that and work. You don't have people to teach forensic science and establish the department. Who is going there to teach all that is as a result of one thing.
00:54:30:06 - 00:54:53:13
Yahaya
We need to bring forensic science education. And if people are being ladder to pursue high art in the discipline of forensic science. I think. They can come back to Ghana and make for an exciting, great now and then we have collaborations.
00:54:56:19 - 00:55:15:20
Yahaya
To conduct more forensic science research. The forensic science is unique, and I know that one may see it is only when there is a case. That is when you find that active. So they try to see various media outlets and information across that to.
00:55:17:03 - 00:55:34:09
Yahaya
Tell us that forensic science utilized in Ghana even we have facility. So we realize that. People are there. We are the institutions that we are lacking in the area of research and education.
00:55:34:26 - 00:55:56:09
Yahaya
So we have collaborations, forensic science collaboration, Indian forensic science research, forensic science outreach, the Alfred Ignites education, and people are given scholarships to pursue postgraduate studies in forensic science. I think people come back to Ghana and make forensic science practice.
00:55:57:27 - 00:56:21:04
Yahaya
And education great and strong. I mean, we need we need this to develop. But any time you going to be able. We remain in these states for some time.
00:56:24:10 - 00:56:48:22
Yahaya
It would, as I said earlier, it would be a nice view from far. It was injustice. Injustice is something today. You can clearly see you work all of the injustice all over.
00:56:48:22 - 00:57:16:21
Yahaya
Meanwhile there are means of. Identifying the real perpetrators are issues that require forensic needs now, even issues even today. People forget that. When someone dies. There is a need for an investigation into how come the person died. Basically because.
00:57:18:07 - 00:57:37:20
Yahaya
Even if it is done, we don't get to see the results. You don't see the outcomes. We don't get feedbacks. So, I mean, I think science education research is it's deplorable. And we need opportunities to.
00:57:40:10 - 00:58:17:04
Yahaya
Study more and comeback. And try to help achieve sustainable development. And I mean achieving sustainable development without this one key sustainable development goal it is. And existing and existing is an accelerate of all sustainable development because if you have justice and strong institutions in your country, all sustainable development goes from no poverty to whatever life
00:58:17:04 - 00:58:27:00
Yahaya
On land, yeah, all of them will be achieved because there is present as these and as growing institutions really people accountable for what am I wrong? They have done.
00:58:28:04 - 00:58:39:27
Eugene
That makes. That makes sense. Now that makes a ton of sense. I would say this because we're getting, we're getting on in time here. But I do want to thank you very much for all your insight and everything else.
00:58:40:03 - 00:58:56:27
Eugene
I'm not going to lie. You have a big road ahead of you, my friend. A very big road ahead of you, I think. But nonetheless, I think that if you do have. Any ideas, any anything that you need in terms of outreach or whatever.
00:58:57:25 - 00:59:12:21
Eugene
I think it was great that we had you as a speaker at the conference and having people from outside, and this is one of the benefits of the Internet and just the fact that we can communicate with people so far away and we can get insight that we normally wouldn't have.
00:59:13:02 - 00:59:23:10
Eugene
So I thank you for that and I thank you for your time. And like I said, if you have any ideas or anything, by all means, please reach out any time and hopefully, you know, we can connect with you.
00:59:23:10 - 00:59:30:12
Eugene
And I hope that we see more of you here and on the conference lists and speaker lists in the future.
00:59:31:20 - 00:59:37:06
Yahaya
Hopefully. Hopefully, all the way from Africa. Ghana?
00:59:37:22 - 00:59:47:07
Eugene
Yes, for sure. Excellent. All right. Well, listen, I know it's late there. Thank you very much. Have a great evening and we'll speak soon.
00:59:47:29 - 00:59:48:12
Yahaya
Thank you.
00:59:49:00 - 00:59:49:20
Eugene
All right. Bye.
