The Breakthrough Hiring Show: Recruiting and Talent Acquisition Conversations

EP 188: Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. Leadership Lessons Learned From Flying for the Navy.

• James Mackey: Recruiting, Talent Acquisition, Hiring, SaaS, Tech, Startups, growth-stage, RPO, James Mackey, Diversity and Inclusion, HR, Human Resources, business, Retention Strategies, Onboarding Process, Recruitment Metrics, Job Boards, Social Media Re

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Lance Sapera, Global Head of Talent at Barracuda, shares how growing up in a Navy family and learning from John Wooden's Pyramid of Success shaped his practical, people-first approach to leadership. From flight deck rules like aviate, navigate, communicate, to modern cybersecurity hiring, he shows how empathy with standards, long-term pipelines, and disciplined systems compound to build sustainable, high-trust teams.

Books mentioned:

- Pyramid of Success by John Wooden

- Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell

- David and Goliath by Malcolm Gladwell

Podcast mentioned: EP 134 with Amit Yoran

Story behind aviate, navigate, communicate: 40:36 - 44:57

Connect with host James Mackey on LinkedIn! 


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SPEAKER_00:

Thank you everyone for tuning in. We got Lance Sapira here today. He's currently in the role of global head of talent at Barracuda. And then previously he's worked at some pretty cool companies like Symantec and Intuit as well. Lance, we're really looking forward to learning more about your background and your journey. Thanks for doing this with us. We appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01:

It's great to be with you, James. As you and I talked about a little bit, I appreciate the opportunity to just be reflective and think about some of these things. And I've listened to a number of your episodes, and you just you facilitate a fun conversation. And I've learned a ton in the number of episodes that I've listened to after you and I first started talking. So I'm looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, me too. And uh I think you were just talking about your mug you got there. You said it's from Ted Lasso. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01:

I got my Ted Lasso Believe mug. It just aligns with my whole life. I think anybody would tell you, going back to a kid, uh, my dad, my whole family were big sports fans in particular. Um, had the chance to see a UCLA basketball game as a kid when John Wooden was still coaching. And I just I found this theme of watching coaches who were great leaders and and paying attention to leadership started. And I actually, my dad got me a copy of John Wooden's signed copy of John Wooden's Pyramid of Success, which I think most people who've watched all of Ted Lasso, it's in the locker room on the wall. One of my kids grew up and actually went to UCLA. They now have the pyramid of success. So we're passing it on through the family.

SPEAKER_00:

That's really cool. So what is the uh I actually haven't heard of this, the pyramid of success. I'm I'm looking it up now. Um so coaching philosophies, essentially.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh yeah, some of it's coaching, but a lot of it is about what can make you great on the basketball court can also help you be great in life, um, in whatever your role is, friend, sibling, parent, um, husband, wife, um, partner. And so I just find that it's just always been something that um aligned for me and also helping me try to be really good at home and really good at work and really good with you know people that uh you're interacting with.

SPEAKER_00:

So this is something that you read when you were you were a kid, right? You said your dad got you this book when you were about how old were you?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh gosh, um I was probably, I don't know, 10 or 12, maybe when I saw UCLA and and John Wooden coaching. The pyramid of success probably came shortly after that when I was a teenager. Um I can't remember how my dad got the chance to get a signed copy, but he gave it to me and I just kept it. And then all of a sudden, when you've got a one of your your kids ends up going to UCLA, it's like they need to have this. And so it's it's been passed on through the family.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that makes a lot of sense because I mean it just during our prep call, and then right before we hit record, just going through some of the topics and experiences that you want to share, it's pretty cool because it seems when I'm looking through uh the pyramid of success and some of the different aspects and focus points, it does seem pretty congruent with what your values and principles and how you've lived your life. So that's it's pretty cool to see that. I'm glad we stumbled on this part of the conversation.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, me too. It's the and and the same thing for the character Ted Lasso, uh doing something that's seems completely out of line with the right choice, you know, a US college football coach becoming a football coach in the UK, but it works because you know, as as humans, I think we're always adapting. And change, it's cliche, we say it's constant, but it's true. And so how we learn to not just adapt to change, but try and find ways to thrive, I think that all channels down through this.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's uh it's really cool stuff. And so for everyone tuning in, we'll drop a link to the book in the description setting so you can check it out. But Lance, I'd love to talk to you a little bit more about your childhood and growing up. But where are you initially from?

SPEAKER_01:

My family, we kind of consider New Orleans home. It's where my mom and dad uh both grew up. My dad was in the Navy, and so I grew up in a in a Navy family, and so we moved a lot, like a number of your previous guests. And that started teaching me some important things early in life, just how important your family is, because we were there for each other. I'm still fortunate to be really close with my brother and sister, because when you move to a new neighborhood, those are your first friends, and you've always got them. Um, but seeing, you know, my dad serve our country and my mom uh focus on raising our family, I know it built a good foundation for me. Um, and it also taught me some early lessons about it's always hard to leave a neighborhood and a school and sports teams and the things you love, especially as a kid, because it's it's everything. But you find that getting to go to these new places, you get to add more. It's you're not losing it, it's just adding to it. And so I found the same thing is carried on through my professional life that things are happening for you instead of to you. And so I just I look back on my childhood as a wonderful time. And like I shared with the John Wooden thing, I started paying attention to leadership and organizations and and being part of something bigger than yourself um early on in life without even realizing it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And so your your dad was in the Navy, and remember you were telling me about uh a time the first time you went with him to work, and you you joined him on uh one of the ships and were able to have that experience. What was that like? What type of ship was it?

SPEAKER_01:

I was a destroyer that he was stationed on, and I was just uh a a little guy, you know, it was probably before bringing your kid to work was even a thing. Um, but I I still remember the experience of my dad knew the people he was serving with. He knew things about the work they were doing and could compliment them on it. He also knew about them as people, he knew about their families, and so it just again, a lesson that was ingrained in me is that combination of we all work so hard and we spend so much time together. How can you create a place where people can thrive? The idea of being in a place where people care about what they're doing, and then it gets even better if people care about the people they're doing it with. And I've been fortunate to be in a number of organizations where that's the case. And in some places, it's even for me, it's expanded to where you love what you do and you love the people you're doing it with, and that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00:

That's really cool. It also must have been really cool just being on a destroyer as a kid, like just such a cool ship, right? Like I'm looking out some different pictures right now. They're they're pretty massive, right?

SPEAKER_01:

They they are, you know, they've got 300 sailors on it, um, who who make the you know the the the ship go and and be the instrument of of national defense that it is. Uh so that part's exciting for me. Another memory about that day is we got to drink bug juice, and it was just the Navy's version of Kool-Aid. And but the fact that I got to drink bug juice, I continued to tell friends about that the rest of my childhood.

SPEAKER_00:

Why why do they call it that? Uh gosh. I've never heard of that.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know. I you know, when I talked to when I talked to my dad, um, next time I talk to my dad, because we're fortunate that uh he's still with us, I'll ask him. We could even ask, we could even ask Copilot right now.

SPEAKER_00:

I know. I'm I'm I'm looking okay. Uh highly sweetened powered fruit drink. It's just an interesting name. Okay, the term originated from the sugary, often insect attracting.

SPEAKER_01:

There you go.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That makes sense. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_00:

So so you mentioned like with your your dad, he also um he was a coach for a lot of the the sports teams that you're on, too. What was that like?

SPEAKER_01:

It was fun. Um, I really liked it. And in fact, my wife and I had our family, and when I could, I tried to coach some of their teams when they were kids. What I remember about it, James, is that, and and a lot of kids will share the same stories like, yeah, you know, when my my mom or dad uh was coaching the team, they were harder on me. They were mean to me. And I can certainly remember times where I felt picked on, but what I ended up walking away from the experience that led me to do that for my own kids, and it's helped influence the kind of leader I am, is that the constructive criticism that a coach or a teacher, um, you know, an acting coach, a dance coach, any of that they're all giving us is because they care about us, they're willing to give us feedback that'll help us be better, whether it's to run faster or act better or sing you know more beautifully. It's that's why they're doing it. And so that's the lesson that ended up sitting with me for all coaches and teachers. When when they're sharing something with you, it's not to be mean, um, it's not to put you down. It's because they see that you could do more.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about that in more depth. Um, you know, as a parent, it's uh it's a balancing act, right? It's like constantly trying to make sure your kids uh feel accepted and loved like unconditionally, and then also being able to help them guide them in the right direction. And it's like this balancing of in in work, I call the balance, it's different, but there's the parallels. I think being a dad has definitely made me a better leader, and it helped me really understand the importance of operating with high levels of empathy alongside high standards. Like, you know, if you have empathy without high standards, you're you're sort of just a pushover as a leader. If you have high standards, but you don't have empathy, you kind of come across as, you know, like you fill in your own word, right? But uh I I think like the you know, as a parent, like that's something that I feel like I'm still trying to dial in on like how to find that balance and how to do that. I don't know if you have any advice on just like lessons learned from your dad, and then also maybe I don't know if you did any tweaks to it as a as a father, but uh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I I I I really appreciate that we're getting to see each other while we're talking because as you brought this up, your face lit up. And so I can just tell that you know, you're enjoying this this part of your life being a parent. And I can tell you, although I've got a few more years than you um being a parent, that we're always learning and evolving. Um, that in fact you might be able to create some kind of chart of that empathy and um standards piece for where on that spectrum can you be the the best parent? Um there's there's probably a whole book in that diagram that you're describing. My kids joke with me to this day, they can remember. I used to have this phrase that I would say when it was helping or hurting. Like if they were getting into it, um, it would just be this, are you helping or hurting? And it's kind of carried on through life that we now joke about it as kids, and as they're now both married and starting that part of their life, uh, that you can see them maybe thinking about things like that. And they actually joke, you know, when I'm in the room. Um, we've got a couple of grandkids where helping or hurting dad, um, it it just kind of transitions through that whole piece of helping them be prepared to make their way through life, become good contributing citizens to society while also doing everything we can for them. So, you know, how do you find that balance of not making it so easy that they end up not being able to work through change and conflict at work and in life? It's an interesting challenge. And I'm not sure I've got a ton of advice for you other than try and because you care and I could see it, like I said, how you light up. Um I'm sharing your being and going to continue to be a great dad. Um, one quick thing that I would share with you is and my and it's funny, my wife and I never made it a goal. It's just kind of evolved. But I think when you start a family, the idea is get them through high school and off to whatever's next. And I should have known this from my own relationship and my wife with her parents too, is that it didn't stop then for us. And so why were we still focused on that piece? And now as I look back and the fact that um we're still very close now that they're in adults and starting their own families, that that's the gift, is that it gets to keep going. So just while you're probably laser focused on how you get them through this phase, um, we're playing a lifelong game here. And so it's a chance to learn, love, get better for the next time something happens.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, 100%. It's uh definitely something where I'm like uh one of my favorite phrases is like swerving toward maturity, you know. Like you're over hopefully over time you're like dialing in a little bit more on the balance. And it's kind of interesting because I see my dad and uh his kind of evolution as a person, right? And I think one of the things that he's developed, and now he's he's 73, but um patience and empathy, right? I think he's younger, is more standards, performance mindset. Um but then as a he's I think the more practical wisdom and life experience, it's like the lessons he instills in me now as I'm parenting and approaching my life. It's like he's constantly preaching patience, uh, empathy, just and less, really less so on performance. Or when I was probably 18, 20, he was still younger. And I guess I was younger trying to get established, so it's a little different too. But it was more on like uh performance. So it's kind of interesting to see that evolution. So now I'm thinking, okay, like this is interesting because he's switching it up on me. Like, so now that's right. How do I try to incorporate these different things, right? Um, but yeah, I think it's a really interesting experience, like looking at you know how we're raised, and then it's like do we tweak, do we keep the same? Um, and then also just learning from our parents as they get older and they change is really interesting too, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And I think that ties to at home, at work, if you're volunteering in the community, doing things like that, how we all um treat each other. Yeah, I think we start to gain a greater perspective, and everything isn't uh black and white right now. It's you said patience, you know. I think that would help a lot if we all took a deep breath, whether it's with our kids in the moment, uh, a coworker or you know, somebody in the community to take a deep breath and think about what's happening. Yeah, helping or hurting.

SPEAKER_00:

I like that. Yeah. I like that. I like when there's simple phrases that they're easy to remember and you can just pull them out when you need them.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, it's nice when you have those types of memorable terms. Um, so that's a good one. I wrote it down.

SPEAKER_01:

So I'm I've got I've got a slew. Uh yeah that yeah. So I've got my recruiting as a team sport when we're talking specifically about um TA, but again, that gets to the whole ecosystem that helps you hire great people who are going to accelerate your company. Um, you know, I also talk about uh we're all in this together. And for me, that draws back to the proverb that I think most people are familiar with. If you want to get somewhere fast, go alone. If you want to go far, you need to go with others. Those resonate with with me. I'm also a big fan of, you know, going back to the John Wooden pyramid of success, how that's led me through. I remember in college reading the book in search of excellence. It just changed how I thought about problem solving. And you and I were just talking about the long game. You know, how do you do things now that cumulatively are going to make things better? Uh, I'm a big fan of Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers and David and Goliath. I think everybody knows the David story. The way he frames it up is it wasn't an upset because all the skills and experiences that each of us are having are getting us prepared for this moment. I'm a big fan of Simon Sphinx. I've done my own why. Um, all those kind of the different phrases and and pieces that fit together in how I think about leadership.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I can't understate what I believe to be the importance of these personal development books and authors. I think there's like two kind of camps, right? Where I think a lot of people consider it's uh kind of like a almost a self-help category or this development category as um like hard skills or or um they don't necessarily make it a priority or they see it as like almost more like positive thinking, or they're just not as invested in these things. And then there's another camp of people. I think generally a lot of the leaders I speak to, folks that are really thriving, I think, are are very dialed in and think about these things a lot and read these books. The biggest influence outside of my parents was Tony Robbins. Um for sure. Sure. He changed my life. I would love to meet him before, you know, hopefully I can meet him one day.

SPEAKER_01:

Um but uh well, there's gotta be somebody who's listening to these conversations that you're sharing, and now that you've done so many, who knows Tony. So to that person or persons, connect James with Tony. Come on, people. Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, when I so when I initially started my company for the first two years, I paid advisors more than I paid myself. And uh a lot of that went toward different events and courses through the Tony Robbins organization. And this was at a time when I really didn't have any money. I found a way to put together$15,000 to go to his business seminar. Um so, like, that's literally to the extent that I I really cared about that. So I think it's just like so cool to hear um some of the books that that you read. Um, I would love to learn more in search of excellence. I I haven't heard about that one.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh is that more of like business or personal or it's it it's business and in it it attracts um some great companies. I should go back and look and see if there are companies that haven't made it. It just talks about how you can do things to create culture and high performance and not just for success in the next quarter, but how do you become an enduring organization in a way that uh, as we were talking about earlier, where the company's thriving, people are thriving, and that I think just spins out of the work to your customers, everybody you touch. Um, employees who are thriving, I think, are um the better citizens in the community because maybe they're not as stressed and they're happier. Um just a lot of I think goodness comes out of that. And so it got me thinking that way, and also starting to look back early in my life, whether it's sports teams, we've talked about my family. Um, I was involved in Navy ROTC in college and my fraternity. And just as I look back at the organizations, being part of organizations that really were, I was starting to feel like I'm part of something larger than just me. Um, and sometimes it was a small basketball team, and sometimes it was it was larger organizations, and I know that led me on a path to to join the Navy.

SPEAKER_00:

So I I'd love to learn more uh about that. Like what was that experience like joining the Navy?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh I I'm I'm smiling thinking about it. Even though I grew up in a Navy family, I didn't intend to have a Navy career. I signed up for the Navy ROTC program because I was looking for a way to help my parents pay for college for me. And so I I did, and I was fortunate. enough to be selected and went off to the University of Virginia and had every intention. Of course I was going to do my the service required to pay back for the scholarship, but I was at that time I thought I was going to be a I intended to be the the orthopedic surgeon for the Baltimore Orioles. That's that's what I was going to do since I wasn't going to play center field for them. I was going to make sure that they were the healthiest, strongest team. And then a funny thing happened like most people, I didn't like the science and you can't be a great doctor if you're not interested in the foundation of being a great doctor. That just had me thinking differently. And then I had the chance to go to flight school for the Navy. And I went uh when Top Gun was all the rage and it was a really exciting time. And but as you get to the end of um flight school and you're choosing what platform you're going to go to again leaning back on my wife and family and some good friends I've talked about being part of teams. Just the idea of being part of a larger team. So I I chose the P3. You can see it on uh over my shoulder on on the bookcase there. It's a multi-mission platform with a crew of 12 to 23. And the idea of working with this crew to accomplish the mission I gravitated towards that and not that people who fly a jet by themselves or maybe with a radar operator aren't doing that. But just the bigger team was something I was more drawn to and now I a kid with friends that second to an aircraft carrier the P3 the Mighty Orion is the most capable platform in the U.S. Navy because we can do anything. And by platform the P3 is that sorry I'm not familiar so that is that's okay uh yeah by by platform we mean that uh the capabilities that while yes it is an aircraft um we could do anti-submarine warfare so anybody who's who's watched the movie about that we also carried mines we carried bombs we carried uh torpedoes we carried missiles and rockets on the wings there isn't a mission that we couldn't do we could sink a submarine we could sink a ship we could go over land and um target bad guys I can think about some moments in my Navy career that still stick with me and I can remember we were flying over land um during NATO operations when uh the people of Kosovo went to to vote and how um how proud we were all to be part of that in this NATO force that was ensuring people could go safely vote. So you know from anti-submarine warfare to doing that um just it was it was an amazing experience for me and also another piece that taught me about um to watch transformation as the Cold War ended and we transitioned to what became you know the next couple of decades of the global war on terrorism that changed everything in the Navy how we trained how we actually fought the global countries we had to work with internally how the services worked and so it was also one of these pieces that started to help me see change is always happening and you have to keep up with it and try and stay ahead of it.

SPEAKER_00:

That's really interesting. So what were the biggest changes that that occurred I'd I I mean this is just again an area that I find fascinating. It's not a world I've lived in so what was like that that shift okay so the Cold War is ending where there's there's um and particularly as you into the early 2000s when you say the Navy was was changing um what were some of the shifts that you saw?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh gosh so many um well for us I can speak specifically to to the P3 and our crews we went from making sure or trying to make sure we knew where our then the adversary was the Soviet Union where their nuclear submarines were I mean that was job one and just had to know where they were um and then now we shifted and we were starting to do surface search and interdict drugs to protect the country and then as the threat of terrorism started to increase across the globe we started flying overland. And so how do you take the skills that helped you in an open ocean search literally try and find that needle in a haystack and all the coordination that was required of a crew to do that to how do you now take that overland and find a needle in a haystack instead of in the ocean somewhere in mountainous terrain or places we had never flown and so the technology and the training and everything that had to follow that evolution for what we were fighting against just was eye-opening and was very instructive to me, you know, in terms of building or refreshing relationships with other countries that we now needed to partner with. Very exciting time.

SPEAKER_00:

I would imagine too that you saw some pretty big uh technological leaps right over the years.

SPEAKER_01:

That was that a cool experience to see the technological changes to I don't know if the P3 had changes as uh years went on and particularly with these uh as things started to change or what was that like oh we absolutely did there there are people who joke now that maybe the uh the k the computer capabilities if you've got a smartwatch on right now are arguably um more powerful from a computer perspective than than some of the equipment we had so watching the technology keep up we've seen that in space evolution right as we started to do more and more in space and got ready to put a man on the moon and now of course you know we've sent satellites into the furthest depths of of our galaxy um the same thing was happening on our airplane I can remember us flying with a a laptop computer um on the aircraft that was helping us maybe reprogram um the ability to send shoot a weapon at a different target that was a a big change and now of course that's happening instantaneously with the way technology has changed so it was also a part that helped me think about uh while you need to be an expert with what you have now you also need to be paying attention to what's coming we can't do everything this relates to you know our TA technology conversation you can't do every new thing that's coming you need to be thinking long game but you also have to make the right moves to make sure that not only keep up with the competition but how are you in a position where the combination of technology and your well-trained special people who are really great at what they do how do you bring that together to achieve your objective yeah definitely I think it's a fascinating background what was that transition like to the corporate sector I mean how did that happen and it to some extent I'm curious to learn if it was a bit of a culture shock or what it was like to make that transition. It the truth the transition is it is enormous. The fortunate piece I've been lucky to have leaders and mentors who cared about Lance and and helped me through it that transition I'll I'll step back one place to you've heard me talk about um my Navy career a little bit in the flying and I got to do a lot of different interesting jobs in the Navy um it was always preparing me in my mind to be an operational squadron commander and be forward deployed the tip of the spear to be forward deploying could you tell us what that means? Sure that means that um right now across not just the United States but across the globe there are military personnel in every service who are training to be ready for whatever the next operation is. And as you're getting ready then you go on deployment. So like right now you can read in the news there's a carrier battle group that's um steaming towards the Middle East a year to a year and a half of training went into that battle group being ready to go forward and be able to do anything the nation asked them to do or that a fellow NATO country might ask us to help with. So when you're forward deployed you're off away from your family and you're completely focused on the mission you know which is in interdicting bad bad actors right now is is a big part of what we're doing. And so that's in my mind what I was my goal and training to be is just as I work my way through roles of greater responsibility in terms of um both in the aircraft and with the people I led to be ready to lead you know a command of three four hundred people deploy away from the United States to to be there to do our mission. And when I came to that stage in my career and I selected for command which I was really excited about and proud of it wasn't to lead an operational squadron. I remember my my boss who's was a great mentor and leader and now is a good friend came to tell me the Navy wants you to lead a recruiting command that's not flying forward deployed. And I I was disappointed I was upset because I had this goal of what I wanted to do and my wife was upset for me. It was like this this isn't what was supposed to happen. What it really meant is what it wasn't what I wanted to happen. And we were so fortunate that my boss at the time sat us down and said I know this isn't what you want but he also said you had prepared you can do what you thought was next going to lead in Navy recruiting is going to be the hardest thing you've had to do in your professional career. And so here it is instead of something happening to me it's happening for me. And so we said okay it's what the Navy needs us to do. And our family backed up and we moved from Virginia Beach Norfolk area to the Bay Area in California and all of a sudden I was in charge of 300 sailors from the California Oregon border over into northwestern Nevada down to the middle of the state of California to find the next great sailors for the U.S.

SPEAKER_00:

Navy so that 300 person organization those were all recruiters?

SPEAKER_01:

Well recruiters and people who are doing the logistics of of the organization to make sure you know the recruiters have cars and and if if you drive out in any community you'll find an armed services recruiting station and so that's those people and what I quickly learned James and this was the the piece that changed my life because I had been a consumer of the Navy because my our favorite thing both as a kid growing up watching it with my own mom and dad and then my wife and I's experiences our favorite thing about the Navy was what we were doing and the people we were doing it with. And as I stepped into it and was really embraced by the the recruiters who taught me the how to be successful in the mission, what I realized is I now had this opportunity and responsibility to pay it forward so that my friends and shipmates who were out there serving in forward deployed roles now had the luxury that I did of everywhere you went you had great people. That now fell on us and that changed everything for me. And I fell in love with recruiting and it was just wonderful to get out in the community and find people who are going to be the aviation electricians and of course the pilots and ship drivers but also the IT people, the cyber warriors you have to go find those people and all the services are doing it. So it is insanely competitive trying to find the next great sailor soldier marine coast guardsmen uh airman and um that's where I fell in love with recruiting is when I think about the impact that it can make.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. So I mean that's a massive organization. You were a commanding officer and then I also see on LinkedIn chief operating and HR officer how how was that broken down? Was that for the SF region? What's the structure of the organization or what was it at the time?

SPEAKER_01:

It's it's changed a little bit since I was there but the idea is you have these recruiting districts they now call them talent acquisition groups situated throughout the country and each of them has a a circle of responsibility like I described where in that population uh we needed to find the next group of people to learn how to maintain aircraft um run the engines on a ship the nuclear power plants on submarines and ships and so it taught me a lot more about the Navy too and it took me back to because I understood the business when I went out in the community I could talk to people about why it was necessary. And there are still some very good conversations going on this day about some people why do we have an all-volunteer force um why do you need to talk to young people in high schools about military service and for for me as someone who had lived it it was the chance to we need terrific people who are out there um in uniform representing our country but also making sure that we're successful in the mission and so you you have to have the best people just like Acme Inc. back here you know in the US or any country together all the recruiting districts are finding enough people to go off to Navy boot camp, marine boot camp, Air Force boot camp, because one of the things about the military that's a little bit different than the private sector is if you have a 13 year tenured person as a product developer or an engineer and they leave a role, we open up a role and we go find somebody who's got the experiences and skills and we bring them in laterally it's much tougher in the military when you lose someone after 8, 10, 12 years of training you have to be growing your next person because we can't just go find that and bring it in. And so the idea of the recruiting we're also doing is the best recruiting tool in my mind is always retaining your best people, right? And so there are people who are in boot camp right now and the Navy knows that we need X percentage of them to serve 20 years. So we've got people who have through stepping stone of experiences are prepared to do that job 18 years from now. And so that taught me a lot about finding great people and making sure that you're not convincing them to do it. It's what they want to do. So there's that piece and then another piece about military recruiting that is informed how I lead and recruit now is we all know how hard it is, you know, after somebody signs an offer letter wherever they are and across the globe to make sure they show up right and so the idea of we have to wait two weeks for James to show up or 60 days in you know in some countries with notice periods that can seem like forever and the organization needs to do a great job to keep you engaged across that 60 day period so you show up on day one and get your badge and your laptop and go to work. In the military people are often signing up and they're not going to start for eight, 10, 12 months. And so how do you keep someone excited and engaged about what they signed up to do for their next job for that period of time it just takes a level of effort recruiting doesn't end when you get the offer letter signed it continues to they show up when they're supposed to and then how do we help them thrive when they join how do we help make sure that they achieve their personal and professional objectives while they're with our organization so they stay. And you know this could take us off on a whole nother path but I've always been fortunate in seeking organizations that invest in the growth of our people because we have to retain them to continue to deliver for our customers and whatever uh the mission of the organization is I love it.

SPEAKER_00:

And I'm I'm excited to get into some of your your top uh takeaways as a TA leader and and what you focus on uh before we jump into that though there was like one story in your military career that we didn't have a chance to talk about that I definitely want to um and then you were talking about when you were in flight school remember you you told me that story about the acrobatic solo that you were doing so I would love if you could tell us that story and maybe just give some background of like what any kind of terms mean that are more like you know uh insider specific but we we'd love to hear that story.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. Um a couple things to set up that example one of the things you learn early on is and I think this applies to all jobs you don't get in an airplane you strap the aircraft on and it becomes an extension of yourself regardless of the size it is. And so for a race car driver it's the car for us when we're commuting, but you're strapping that on and it is now an extension of yourself. The next piece is three things you learn are you aviate, navigate communicate in that order. And why that's important is because when something changes whether it's an emergency or bad weather or whatever you have to fly the plane safely first then navigate. So make sure you keep the plane level and flying navigate to make sure you don't fly into something you shouldn't and then the third piece is communicate. You do it in that order because if you start talking and trying to let people know what's going on and the airplane gets away from you you know it's it's in the news mishaps happen. So you aviate navigate communicate and that is instilled in us from day one. And that now translates to when something happens at work or in life fly the plane first take that deep breath think about what's going on make sure you're safe in control then think about the next step so you don't fly into something and then the third piece is tell people what you're doing. And again because I think you facilitate these fun conversations I shared with you the idea that uh after you learn how to fly the plane safely in flight school and you've done your solo, you move into aerobatics and formation flying to hone your skills and develop some new skills. And in doing aerobatics you do things that your body's not quite used to and when I was out on my aerobatics solo and I was doing my first um loop we've practiced it a ton with an instructor uh before you go do it yourself. And so you follow the process you get all set up and you've done it so you know what to expect. And when I was doing my first one the adrenaline is crazy. Your brain's thinking about a thousand million things at the same time as you're going through it I just remember as I was approaching the top of the loop it just didn't feel right. And I I I can't describe it but it's a combination of weightlessness and yet G's on you to keep you in so you can safely complete the loop. And it just didn't feel right and a million things go through my head to include am I sensing this wrong? If I mess this up the airplane's gonna be out of control and then you've got to miss just a million things going through your head. You think about your family all the and I just Because of the training we had, the aviate, navigate, communicate, I simply just pulled the stick a little bit closer to me, and all of a sudden it felt normal. And I finished it and came out of it. And one, it was exhilarating to do by yourself, that the Navy trusts you to take this airplane and go do it and practice and bring it back safely. But the other piece that stayed with me across my life is that we prepare, we train, you're ready. And when you're doing something and it doesn't seem right, there's this combination of if you've done all these other pieces, sometimes we have to trust our instincts, our gut, and maybe make that little tweak or make that hard change. But to make sure you come out of the loop safely, you have to do it. Because if you don't, there are some unwelcome consequences. And so that has just stuck with me through my personal and professional life.

SPEAKER_00:

Some really good lessons there. So the aviate, navigate, communicate, that is so applicable to everything. And then again, it feels like some of the best advice I feel like after the fact is like, oh yeah, like of course, but it's stuff that you don't necessarily think about. Like that's to me often the best advice I get. It feels like common sense after you heard it, but you never would have thought of it without being able to learn from other people. Uh but yeah, it's like this just the basic principle of like, look, if something doesn't feel right, like change it. You know, um, it's probably because something isn't. And uh what's so cool about that experience that you had is that it was probably so emotionally engaging and such like a almost like a peak experience that it probably like really psychologically just instilled that principle in you more than if you were just learning it in a classroom, right? Because it you know, to some extent, it was probably a pretty intense moment that instilled that lesson.

SPEAKER_01:

You're absolutely right. And and I know that's why the Navy gives us all the that experience in flight school is to experience that and take it forward with us, share it with our crews, share it with others, and it's that you know, you know, the Aviate Navigate Communicate is another one of these short one-liners, you know, that help me stay focused and and trying to be successful at life. The uh another one is just the the pebble in the pond, right? And the ripples go out, and depending on how big the pond is, you never know where the ripples are gonna end. And that that one I think is the the ripples continue to go across my life and remembering you know some of these lessons we've talked about um in our conversation today.

SPEAKER_00:

So I'd I'd love to talk to you about right now you've held multiple talent acquisition leadership roles. Now you're in a role ahead of talent role. So are you overseeing people ops and talent acquisition now, or is it exclusively talent acquisition?

SPEAKER_01:

It's right now it's it's TA focused.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, got it. So at this point, you've run uh talent acquisition recruiting uh for the Navy, you've done it in the private sector. Um, I believe Barracuda's the tech industry, right? It's a tech company, is that right?

SPEAKER_01:

Cybersecurity company, you know, we're uh a leading provider to keep our customers and their clients safe against all the threats.

SPEAKER_00:

You might um be interested, by the way. We uh recorded an episode with the CEO of Tenable uh probably a couple of years ago, publicly traded cyber company. Um, I think probably two years ago at this point. I'll look for it and I'll I'll find it. You might find it interesting.

SPEAKER_01:

But I'm sure I would.

SPEAKER_00:

He ran uh he's a president of RSA and a couple of um cyber startups that sold to like the you know the big big players.

SPEAKER_01:

So definitely go listen. Our our CEO before joining Barracuda was CEO of RSA.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, yeah, so there's a tie-in. Yeah, yeah. So he was president of RSA, our guest, um probably 10 plus years ago. I don't know exactly, but uh um, anyways, uh something possibly interesting for you.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, of course. Okay, so as a as a TA leader now at Barracuda and at what would you say for other town acquisition leaders and and other executives, really anyone who wants to build phenomenal teams, what are the top lessons learned or takeaways that you can share?

SPEAKER_01:

That's a good question because it really it's a forcing function. We all have a thousand things that either we have to do or want to do. Nobody has the bandwidth or capability, well, maybe some people do from a resources perspective, to do them all. And so for me, it's you have to be laser focused on the top couple that help your team move forward. And so for us, it is this job one is recruiting people who can accelerate the business. Every role, I think you and I even talked about this. Every role is really a business problem to be solved. And how do you find the person or persons who can help your organization? So for us, it's staying laser focused on delivering people who are going to accelerate the business. And it's not just putting anyone in there, it's it's people who are gonna make the organization better.

SPEAKER_00:

So one of the things that I found interesting when we were talking uh before recording was um you talked about unleashing recruiters. And I wanted to see if you could what exactly do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_01:

Uh so it it falls right from that first piece, which is if if that's their job one, if that's our collective job one, we've got some guidance in place. But I'm a believer that people should be able to be the verb that their job is. So recruit, market, sell, develop. And so for recruiters to recruit, I hope if you were to talk to recruiters who've been part of my teams, and I've had the opportunity to work with and lead, is that they get to run their desk. They understand what the priorities are, but they get to do it the way that helps them partner with their hiring managers, with their interview teams, with the business leaders they're working with, with the HR business partners who play such a key role in all of this to understand the business and then find great people. We have metrics that we're reporting on and that we share with the business. And that's a a piece that we're trying to get better at, I'm trying to get better at. But so the recruiters aren't out there in the wild, wild west, so to speak. Their objectives and goals we have, but how they go about it, how they structure their day, that's up to them. And we talk about it, so I understand there are some recruiters who are very structured, and there are others who just do things differently, we'll say. And we need all kinds because there are different roles where you know about a difficult hiring manager or a really tough role that takes somebody who can think differently and ask the right question. Um, and so you know, unleashing recruiters, uh, because they have this, in my mind, the best the best recruiters have some insane skills in terms of they're really good listeners. They don't just hear what Lance or James is saying. What are they telling me? And they can pick up on things where the examples they're giving can tell a recruiter, well, you'd be much better for a different role. And because they're listening in a way that it's not to assess to eliminate, but it's it's like a good sales organization. How can I get this company to buy our product, whether it's now or in three years, if recruiters are thinking about the needs of, in this case, Barracuda, when I hear something from James that's like, you know what, you're not right for this site reliability engineer role now, but I heard something that because I'm partnering with the business and I know what's happening in a couple of quarters, I'm gonna maintain this relationship because I don't want to start at the post and hope someone applies that has the skills and experiences and then have to go through the whole process. I'm gonna start with somebody I'm already getting to know. And so we try and nurture those relationships. So recruiters are they're really good listeners. And they also have this, we like to talk about the have the dotted line relationship. So if you were to open up workday right now, you would see recruiters who are part of the TA organization and they directly report to me or to their manager. What I really like is when a recruiter builds a relationship with a business that leader or that hiring manager thinks about that person as part of their organization. And they might even want to fight you over it. It's like, no, James is part of my team. It's like that's what you want to hear because you've now created that dotted line to their org where you're being invited to QBRs and their town halls and any kind of strategic planning session, they're getting to know the business. One, it helps them assess and get the right people in, but it also shows a respect for the business in the sense that who doesn't get excited to talk about what they do. And so that's a great way to learn the business. And then if the recruiter is learning these things about the business, if they've sat in on some interviews or maybe a working session, a whiteboard session, the team has, they can take that. And when I'm talking to a candidate, you've got a couple of moments to get James interested in this role. And when they can give you a glimpse into the day in the life of the role and why what you're gonna do here can have impact and aligns to the personal and professional goals that they've been pulling out of candidates during their conversations, it just helps us align to the people who are gonna accelerate the business, if not in this role now, when the right role pops up for them.

SPEAKER_00:

And that really ties into just generally speaking, building strong and lasting relationships, which I think the quick bullet point takeaway is unleashing recruiters, right? Like, and it sounds like that's a combination of a lot of things, but to some extent, it's also sounds like you're giving them ownership to do things their own way. And I think ownership and buy-in go hand in hand. Folks are able to have some independence in how they approach doing their job. I I've learned this, I want to say the hard way, or maybe just took time. I don't know if it was necessary hard. Just like I've been running my company for a decade now. So I've been around for a minute, you know, I've led a lot of individuals and helped hundreds of companies hire. I've seen a lot of cultures. And I think what I've learned is people typically perform better or they take ownership of their outcomes more when they have more influence over how they do their job. And so it's this balancing act of having consistency, particularly as you start to scale, but it's also about providing flexibility and allowing ownership. And so I try to find the right balance. And I think it's it's unique to every organization, it's always a little different. But what I try to, I don't want, you know, if somebody wins, I want them to feel like it's it's it's a team win, but it's also like they made that impact. And also if if they don't get the outcome they want, I don't want them to feel like, well, I could have, if I had been able to, if I was trusted to do it the way I wanted to do it, we could have gotten a better outcome. And so I try to be flexible. I I set the star. I say this is what I want to have happen. You could within that do it, right? And if of course, if there's challenges, then maybe there has to be a little more structure why I step in and say, okay, like we need to do more of this, you need to do a little of that. But I I think that's a critically important leadership lesson.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think you've got another one of your graphs there with how do you stay on the that happy point of the line, if you will, between freedom and outcomes. And different people are on different parts of that trajectory. Again, it's fun that we can see each other because as you're telling me that, I can see your brain working and you're lighting up talking about that. So this is fun.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's a it's a lot of fun. Looking through my notes, and um, I mean, there's so many, so many good things to talk about. I think what I want to make sure that we we cover is I would love to hear about how your definition of success has changed from maybe the you know formative life experiences, right, to as a young adult to now being in your prime overseeing a large organization, like and also, of course, the personal journey as well. How's that changed over the years?

SPEAKER_01:

I like the way you're asking the question, not just the question, because it has changed, you know, just in the examples that that we've discussed, once upon a time, my goals were to achieve the highest rank I could and the most responsibility in the Navy. And I was very fortunate to achieve some of that. And it's helped me understand life. And I think so. What's changed is that I'm a lot more focused on how I see success is it starts at home with my family, you know, or is my family thriving? Because I work hard to try and provide for my family. And so we're always, again, on one of these graphs, right? Trying to find that right balance. And sometimes work overtakes home life. And that happens to be good at our job, to fulfill our responsibilities. And there are other times where what's going on in our personal lives influences work and you can't do it. And that's when you need teammates to pick you up. And so as I think about that, you know, just seeing my family be successful, and then instead of more about my own success in terms of climbing a ladder of titles or something, I just have really come to think about it in terms of people I've had the chance to influence and that I've been influenced by. And um, I'm not as great as I would like to be in terms of keeping up with even some of the people I've talked about who've influenced me in today's conversation. But the fact that I've had the chance to build this professional network and this community that I'm part of, where um I'm still talking with people I served with in the Navy, you know, we go back more than 20 years, and recruiters and other leaders that I've worked with in my now uh time in the private sector, um, that we're still connected and learning from and with each other. Um, is just that's more how I view it. It it translates back to, I think a lot of people might be familiar with David Brooks's his famous article on um the eulogy resume. And just we we focus so much on our work resume, but the one that counts the most is just the life resume. And so I just really value it when I have the chance to impact somebody and you know they're thinking about their next job or next step in life if it's my kids. Uh so that's that's more how I think about success is is through others.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I love that. It's uh getting back to tying in what you help others see as impact, and it's like thinking about impact for yourself in your life, right?

SPEAKER_01:

And yeah, and because I get so much out of it too that it's gratifying. And and I'm sitting here with you just feeling uh really grateful.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I love it. Lance, I've really enjoyed this uh conversation and I'm I'm grateful as well. Thanks for coming on today and and sharing your story. It's been a lot of fun, and we got some really cool ones. I I love the acrobatic loop story. That's uh that's pretty freaking cool. I was trying to put myself in your shoes, and I was like, man, that sounds sounds pretty scary, honestly.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I I don't know about that, but but the irony about that is that you really don't do there's no really, you don't do those kind of maneuvers in a P3. Um but again, the impact it had on me and how when you strap the aircraft on, um, just like in anything, there's opportunity and responsibility. And that combination of the two is just it's exciting.

SPEAKER_00:

It yeah, it is. It's a great, great story, great takeaways. Well, Lance, thank you. Thanks for joining us today.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, thank you, James. So appreciate what you're doing.

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James Mackey

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