EP 213: A Non-Traditional Path to a Ruthless Hiring Bar

Lauren Valencia grew up in a small town outside Seattle, where adventure, sports, and early problem-solving shaped a non-traditional path into recruiting. Now Head of Talent at Socket, she’s scaling teams quickly while rethinking org design, first-in hires, and what actually drives success in a startup. In this conversation, she shares why recruiters need to think like founders, how to evaluate real builders, and why picking your hires like you pick your inner circle is so crucial.

Episode mentioned: EP 187 with Joe Wilson

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Hey everyone, welcome to the show. We got Lauren Valencia with us today. Lauren is currently the head of talent over at Socket. Uh Lauren, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Thank you so much. I've been really excited to do this. So I appreciate you reaching out.

Small Town Childhood And Sports

SPEAKER_01 1:00

I appreciate you too. So, Lauren, where are you from?

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Um, I am from uh a little small town about 30 to 45 minutes outside of Seattle proper called Carnation, Washington. It sounds really cliche. I can't think of a better name for a small town. Um, but yeah, uh grew up kind of in the sticks a little bit. That's beautiful, beautiful place to grow up.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

That's that's um awesome. And hey, real quick, I just I switched over my mic for some reason wasn't connected. Can you hear me okay?

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Yeah, I can hear you.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Okay. Okay, great. Okay, cool. Um okay, so yeah, you grew up in a really small town. And I think you were one of two, right? You have a sister? Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 1:37

I have a sister. She's a couple years older than me. Um, so yeah, we like, you know, really were not friends growing up until she kind of shipped away for college and uh now we're best friends. So nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Okay, gotcha. All right, yeah. Um it was a couple years' age difference.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Yeah, two and a half years. She's two and a half years older than me. So yeah, she got me into love hip hop and you know, TLC, and you know, yeah, all the all the usual suspects.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Yeah, that's awesome. Uh so what were you what were you like as a kid?

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Yeah, oh man. Um, I was really adventurous growing up in the sticks and growing up in a small town. Uh, we had a lot of freedom. We grew up on five acres, and so a lot of freedom to kind of just go explore and like uncharted, ungroomed, you know, uh land, honestly. My um, my dad was a builder. Uh, he owned his own business and remodeled and built houses from the ground up. So always had like a lot of lumber laying around. And yeah, me and my sister just uh we used to like build forts in the woods. And so I spent a lot of time outside. Pretty adventurous. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

That's that's awesome. So you uh you were also really into the sports, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Yes, yeah. Playing a lot of sports, um, always always played team sports. So volleyball was kind of my my jam. Played softball, played soccer, you know, wasn't particularly good at at either of those. But yeah, volleyball was kind of my sport. I played select, I also played high school, so pretty much year-round.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Are you really are you tall?

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Like uh I'm five four. So I played libero. So that was kind of you know my my thing. Um trying to play uh hitter. I'm left-handed, so tried to uh oh my gosh. Okay, welcome, South Pop. Yep. Um maybe the creativity there, maybe the creativity there they say. Um but yeah, played played a lot of sports. Yeah, volleyball was my thing. I also um grew up uh, you know, next to the slopes. So like snowboarding was really consistent through my life. Started really young and uh now I'm a skier, but yeah, always kind of been on the mountain. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Yeah. But so how old were you when you started snowboarding?

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Uh, I had to have been in like fifth grade.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Fifth grade, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

I was pretty much yeah, not like a baby, but um I was doing the ski bus thing and you know, my best friends were, you know, um snowboarders, and yeah, we have a really like big kind of uh like ski bum kind of you know vibe out here.

Getting Lost On The Mountain

SPEAKER_01 4:04

So that's that's awesome. So you were telling me like one time you said you got lost on a mountain while you're snowboarding. How did so how did how did that happen? You just went off the the trail or the slope somehow accidentally, or it was it was pretty traumatic.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Um so I had to have been in like seventh grade, and you know, the ski bus situation was you know, you you get picked up at the end of the school day, and you all take the bus, you know, up, you and 40 other kids up on the mountain, and then you know, you're up there for about three hours and the ski bus comes comes back, and then the parents pick you up, right? Um, I didn't show up to the bus on the way back, and uh I remember it very vividly. I was with very experienced friends because again, like it's a big kind of like you know, slope uh kind of culture, ski, ski culture out there, and uh, they were really good. And um, I could keep up, but certainly not as experienced. And uh they took the like faster path down, which was like a black diamond. And uh I took the um like less hard, quote unquote hard. Ended up not being the case. It was actually an ungroomed slope. And so I was getting stuck in the ice, and I actually thought that my life might end. I remember just screaming for help and nobody's around and there's no lights. And then I see out of nowhere just this guy, like, you know, almost like a you know, scene from Polar Express when he's on top of the train and coming for you. I see this this man coming to save my life, and uh, I unstrap out of a you know, crying and I you know um unstrap and then uh get on the back of the skis and we fly down. And the ski mom who was waiting, she was just sobbing in tears. But yeah, they had they had rescue there, and then you know, I get back on the bus and ever all the kids, you know. Oh, they're such brats, they're all standing up and clapping. And I remember, yeah, and I I just I didn't live it down for a while.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

So yeah, wow, that must be pretty scary.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

It was, yeah. I actually like thought no one could hear me because you know it's snow too, so like um there's no echo, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Is that is that true? I never thought about that.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Yeah, like it like dampening it definitely, yeah, definitely dampens the sound. I at least that's what I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Yeah, yeah, definitely. So then like just to uh fast forward, starting out like you kind of finding your path as a young adult, you were telling me about just like kind of finding your footing and and uh what it was like. Tell us about that. Like what's um coming out of high school, like what what uh would you do next?

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Yeah, yeah. So I kind of from a family that like education really mattered. It was always sort of like drilled into my sister and I. Um, you know, you gotta go to good school, you gotta get good grades. Um, I had sort of this, you know, like non, I had kind of a love hate uh like relationship with education. I wasn't super successful, didn't get the best grades, always felt a little bit out of place uh in the classroom. Not entirely sure why. Like I had a lot of friends and you know, kind of grew up in the district and so knew everybody and you know, certainly had like a, I would say like a good time.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

But when you when you say growing up for the district, what do you mean?

SPEAKER_00 7:22

Oh yeah. So like the elementary school that I went to, we all went to middle school together. We all went to high school together. So um kind of you know, saw the same people as we all moved through these different stages of of life. But um yeah, so didn't go to university uh right out of school. I started working immediately. Uh was the first kid in my family to not go to a university. So there was a lot of um, I think worry on my parents' side. You know, what is she gonna do? My sister has her like master's from like, you know, this very prestigious school and her CPA. And so yeah, definitely like was trying to find my way a little bit, went into the service industry. My best friends today, my you know, maids of honor, my husband, met them all there, like just amazing people in my life. So um wouldn't wouldn't do it differently, you know, if I could kind of uh go back and and reset the clock, but uh learned a lot and you know, breaking down a bar at 3 a.m. Um with some coworkers and doing the job basically that like nobody wants to do. So I feel like that was really formative for me. Um and then yeah, kind of got into recruiting. I think everyone says this uh randomly. Um but yeah, I always I always knew what recruiting was though. My um friend's uh mom was a recruiter growing up, so I always kind of like knew what it was. But yeah, it took me maybe a little bit later than like some of my classmates because they were all you know doing internships and I was just figuring out what I wanted to do next. So yeah, oh for sure.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

Do you think that like not doing a traditional path with education has impacted your value system or your worldview or how you approach your career or think about your role?

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Yeah, absolutely, especially being in recruiting, you know, because you're you see resumes all day. And I really do have an appreciation. I call them rite of passage jobs. And I think you know, people go through really impressive journeys with um educations, like absolutely. But um, sometimes I'm looking for that like rite of passage job where they did the job that was like really hard that like nobody wanted to do. I feel like it really does mold you and kind of pave the way, like going forward. Uh yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I I don't know. All I mean, I only had like my own experience, but I do feel like taking a less traditional path, I had a level of appreciation for those like early jobs. There was just a ton of grunt work that I think maybe other folks didn't quite have, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Totally, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think the nice thing was like, you know, I walked away with no student debt.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Yeah, well, that's also cool. It's always cool.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

That's also cool. And and honestly, I'm right where I would want to be, like when I would have wanted to been there, have been there. So when I see where I am now, like uh yeah, I'm actually, you know, thrilled with the journey that I've that I've taken. But it it does come with a little bit of like imposter syndrome because you know, in a world when education, like everybody cared about it, I really had to like prove myself. And it constantly came up in interviews. And I was almost feeling like apologetic for not, you know, going around. I had to sort of um really sell myself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Yeah, for sure. Well, yeah. I mean, and also I think probably I guess we were starting out around the same time, I think, just based on what I can tell on LinkedIn. Um, I think you're you might be a little younger than me, but about the same age. And I I feel like even a decade ago, it was it was harder without the degrees.

SPEAKER_02 10:59

Like, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

It was it was more of a stigma attached to it than I mean there are still some some roles of subcompanies where people like really value it. Um and there is value. I think in some cases there's a lot of value, but like it was it was hard. It's hard to break into um corporate jobs.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Yeah, yeah, it it really was. Um, yeah, but you know, the the recruiting agency, I just have so much, you know, love for them, still still in touch with some of them today. But the first agency hired me, they were specifically looking for someone who had worked in the chain of restaurants that I had worked at because you are everything there. Like you are, I think I have it on my LinkedIn that I'm I was chaos control. That's why, you know, the title that I gave myself when I look back on the time there of all the titles I held uh in that moment. But um, yeah, it was it was just such a great place to be because I had, you know, you just we go through hard things with a group of people really late at night, and and you know, that's kind of the world we live in, and you you're serving difficult people, people that are tough to to work with. Uh yeah, it's it's really formative.

Scaling Socket And Org Design

SPEAKER_01 12:06

It's a tough job. Really is yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Um well cool. And so like now, right? Like you're fast forward uh and not too much time, like head of talent at I mean, I was looking at socket and because you had talked about like how fast your team is growing. And I was looking up you guys on LinkedIn, and it's like the employee growth curve is like up and to the right pretty significantly. So you're like at a premium head of talent at like a premium tech company that's crushing it. I mean, I saw it in your LinkedIn profile. Like, was it recently you guys did the 40 million series B?

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Is that uh we did that uh back, oh gosh, it would have been right before uh like probably six months before I joined, actually.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Um, yeah, my my last company had gotten acquired. So I did the whole you know, merger thing and fuck it was waiting for me, you know. Um and yeah, we're having a crazy amount of success. I've never been at a startup that had such strong like product market bid and and the like complexity of customers, and we 3X', you know, headcount and what felt like overnight. And um, yeah, we're gonna double the team in the next 12 months too. So, yes, my team was really cool. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Very cool. Yeah, well, that's that's really impressive. Like how you know, like how much you've accomplished. And yeah, you know, I I I think like let's just start with so today, right? Or you know, 2026. Everybody tuning in, other talent acquisition leaders, recruiters trying to level up. Everybody wants to know what everybody else is doing and like how they're approaching this crazy market and this wild and exciting and sometimes stressful like time in in the tech industry. It's always stressful, I guess. But um, how are you approaching like your job today? I mean, what's your kind of obsession this year? What are you focused on?

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Yeah, I think obviously, you know, every startup probably has a different answer for this at a specific moment in time, but I think um we all go through the same things at different times, basically is what I'm trying to say. Um yeah, similar, similar things. Uh, right now I'm really trying to solve for like org design for a startup, meaning we're hiring for like the first in type positions. Those are so hard. So hard because um you're trying to like stand up entire functions and AI is changing so much. And so the old playbook that everybody was building, like that's not the playbook anymore. And so really trying to take like a first first principles approach to everything, really trying to figure out like the right path for the team, who the right person is. And uh yeah, it's it's really some org design stuff um that I'm really like obsessed with right now. And then, you know, of course, now that we've hit 100 people, like we need to start, we need to turn around and we need to look at some of the like people operations side of the house. So um, it's kind of the full gamut. Like I'm I'm wrapping my arms around everything. We've got some critical hires to make over the next uh 12 months. And so it's really having very like thorough and thoughtful conversations around right person, right time. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

For those first-time roles that you're talking about, like you're right. Interestingly enough, that's not a topic we've really discussed on the show. Like when you're hiring for a role for the first, which is kind of nuts because we've been doing the show for four years. We've had like over 200 episodes, but we never really, really like dialed into okay, you're scaling, you're hiring a bunch of first-time roles. Like, how do you really approach that with the team and ensure that you're getting the right person uh in for that for those like first-time type of hires?

SPEAKER_00 15:39

Yeah, I mean, it starts with org design, right? So it's um, you know, where are we gonna be in 12 months from now? What are our customers gonna look like? Um, what are our revenue streams? And then you kind of like work back from there, okay. Who do we like really need in this role? So it's pretty heavily like outcomes driven at the at the top of kind of the conversation. Um, and then of course, like, you know, you want to kind of work back from there and focusing on traits and you know, what should this person have like done before? Um, and you know, kind of going through like a proper like kickoff, I would say. And so yeah, it's it's like honestly, just kind of like starting at like where do we see ourselves 12 months from now? And then like what are the outcomes that we need this person to accomplish, you know, between now and then. Um, and then figuring out kind of like what trade-offs we're we to make. But it it takes a long time to have these conversations. And when you're trying to like figure it out and and things like evolve every six months in a startup, like who we are today is not who we were six months from now. Like the the bar is is now even higher. And you know, what we thought was aggressive then is is baseline now. And so it's just it feels like a moving target it in the sense. And so you really want to, I think, like first and foremost, like when you're hiring that head of or that first in, they have to be scalable with the business. You know, that's like something that I that I truly believe in. Um yeah, finding somebody who is, of course, like you're you're gonna find people that are seat stage. Maybe they're not right for you in series B. Um and that can be okay. But I think at this stage, like we're sort of like scaling up. Like we do need to find people that um can can sort of lead us to like where we want to be in in 12 months from now.

Interviewing For Scale And Battle Scars

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Yeah, I I totally get that. I'm curious if you have any advice on how do you interview and evaluate if somebody's the right type of scale up executive versus like you know, going from that very early stage pre-scale to like, okay, now we have we're things are gonna be evolving at a faster rate. Somebody's gonna have to know how to leverage themselves to delegate properly, to hire, to uh they figure out the right point of impact as the role consistently evolves. How do you kind of test for that?

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Yeah, it's like battle scars.

unknown 17:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

That's like really what I believe is like, do they have the stretch marks? Like, do they have the battle scars? Um, you know, uh being able to talk like very specifically about like that journey to the scale of where we're headed and like what broke along the way and like what they would have done differently. Typically, what I'm I'm looking for, I'm looking for like the very like behavioral-based kind of you know, interview um style. Uh, but I also like kind of have this like 80-20 rule, right? Like find 80% of what you're looking for. I I do see a lot of value in there being that like kind of 20% where the person's not going to get bored. Like this is mutually fit for us because we're allowing them to kind of grow and stretch and walk through some uncharted territory that they haven't been before. I think when you're kind of like this is my third bill here. Uh, but what was really exciting about it was, you know, I haven't been uh at a at a small of a company and have always reported into ahead of people. Like we don't, we don't have that here. So um I think it was a role that I could really like stretch and grow into and um I'm having a lot of fun. And so I think that that's something to really consider when you're hiring these folks um is you know, what are what are they gonna learn when they're here? Um I think that's who you're looking for. Like you're looking for the person who like wants to grow and wants to stretch and like has that level of ambition, um, not just sort of, oh, I've done this, you know, five times again. I'm just gonna go like build the same playbook. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Yeah. Yeah. That's okay. That's that's that's super helpful. Yeah. I I'm a huge uh advocate of really focusing on behavioral fit. Uh I don't know. I mean, like, I just over the years, it's just I don't think we can compromise on behavioral fit at all. It just it's it's every time I feel like I've taken a chance on that or not felt solid about it, it just hasn't worked out.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

It hasn't worked out, yes. Yeah. So right. I've I've certainly made, you know, some um some maybe, you know, as every leader and manager has, like I've certainly taken a bet on someone. And I do think that there's a time and a place for that. Like I do think that you have to bake some of that like risk in. Uh, but they need to like spike, like they need to be like, you know, good and in like very good in like specific areas where you're like, oh, that's what we're learning from them. Um, but yeah, oh, culture on like, you know, you don't want to hire folks that are, you know, gonna come kind of weigh weigh the culture down. So there is also some of the like, are people gonna like working with this person? You know, like um, yeah.

The Hidden Cost Of Time To Align

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Yeah, gotta be that as as well for sure. Um yeah, it's really, really interesting. And so this kind of leads into I think your top takeaways uh uh as a town acquisition leader. And I think actually, so you shared a few things with me. I would actually like to share to start with the third thing you shared. Okay. You referred to as the deadly metric, time to align. Um and the reason I want to start there is because I think like the alignment piece is also so critical when it comes to these first in hires, right? Like, but so can you talk to me like about why you feel like time to align is so important and just maybe some lessons learned and advice there?

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Yeah, yeah. So I'm a bit, I'm like somebody who I'm constantly like reading things, I'm constantly like listening to podcasts, and I've always had to do that. I've always been a little bit of a lone wolf in terms of like reaching outside and and developing my own skill set because you know, we've kind of been a team for one when I've started at most places. So um yeah, I actually learned this metric, time to align, from John Blastelica. Uh he's the head of uh recruiting toolbox. I'm not sure if you've heard from him. So I have to give him credit for this. Um, but it's something that like every time I say it, every time I repeat it, uh, like it it everyone goes, what did you what did you just say? And they're like, What is that metric? And I'm like, exactly. Um, so yeah, time to align. So that is the thing that like is so deadly, the metric that is so incredibly expensive. And it's that moment where you've got a hiring leader, maybe this executive, maybe it's a hiring manager who um they want to kick off a search. But you know, the moment that we actually are ready to kick off that search, which means everybody's aligned on what we're looking for. We have the homework assignment, we have the profile built out, we have a solid process in place. Uh that is like just drags on for weeks. It just drags on for weeks. And so there is, even though like the rec's not like open, there is also this capacity issue like with recruiting teams, where that's actually the hardest part of the job. Like I look for people on my team who are excellent like project managers and um they really are like driving to like go live. That's the hardest part. Like getting people in the process is actually like the easiest part, right? In my certain opinion. Yeah. So um, of course, assuming like you have, you know, the right like total reward. Packages and we don't have unrealistic expectations. But um yeah, it's that alignment piece. It's getting everybody to agree and sit in a room and say, these are the outcomes that we're looking for over the next 12 months. And here's what's actually really important versus like, you know, what we just like hope and wish to have and what looks shiny on on paper. Um, and so yeah, that especially for the first in positions and like for startups, like that, this is really hard. It's really hard.

Hiring Standards And What You Tolerate

SPEAKER_01 23:14

Oh, yeah, for sure. For sure. You also mentioned how you think about picking hires, like you pick relationships and having high standards for folks you allow in your life. Like, can you tell us that you know that you mentioned that was actually the first thing you mentioned that came to mind. It was like top takeaways. But like, yeah, tell us, tell me, I yeah, can you tell me more about that?

SPEAKER_00 23:32

Yeah, I don't know if this is the standard kind of growth path that most recruiters go through, but it's certainly been, you know, a learning of mine that became really prevalent over the last couple of years. Uh and yeah, pick your hires like you pick your relationships in life. And um, of course, there's gonna be some difference, right? Um Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

It's a total different yeah, but yeah, I see what you're saying. Like for sure.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Yeah, you need you need to be ruthless about the quality of coworkers that you have. Every hire directly shapes what the company becomes. I mean, truly. Um, I heard, I don't know where I heard this, but um, someone that I look up to, I'll have to go back and see, they sort of commented on this and they had said, you know, culture is not defined as who we hire, it's like what we tolerate within the business. And I thought that that was really interesting. And so, um, like of course it's tied to hiring, right? But like um, yeah, like quality, I think, of like coworkers, just as you would pick your friends and relationships. And most people don't maybe figure that out until their 30s. So I know that that's, you know, our one. I certainly didn't figure it out until you know my my my late 20s. Um and and yeah, so and we can kind of circle back on that later of like, yeah, kind of my my uh my spiry senses on people. But um, yeah, so every hire will shape what the company becomes. You know, you need to be asking questions like what are we learning from them? You know, are they just meeting the status quo or are they bringing something to the business that like we don't have already? Are they learning more from us than we're learning from them? Right. And then stick it out when times get hard. Like I want to know that I have good colleagues that I can rely on who, you know, are gonna be amazing solutioners, if that's a word.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

Yeah, I know, I hear you.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

Um yeah. And uh, you know, or are like thinking for like what's best for the business and you know, low ego. And um, do they challenge us? So I also uh I have to credit my past boss. She is just amazing. She's a pretty badass uh VP of people. And I've learned so much from her. And one time she asked me, this might be a little interesting to hear, but uh it really put things into perspective for me. One time she had said, you know, do you trust this person to make the value of your equity like grow tenfold? And I was like, oh. So when you start kind of like looking at your hires, like, okay, like, you know, what are we learning from them? How are they um like helping us raise the bar? And I think uh like recruiters have to do that. Like we need to endorse the hire. And yes, there's a full interview loop. Like, you know, you can't sort of off one 30-minute screen no, but like you're there for the debrief, you're seeing the feedback, like you're hearing from the candidate, you're going through kind of a whole nurturing process with the candidate and with the hiring teams. If you can't say at the end of this process that you endorse this person, like you got to have that conversation. It's ultimately up to the hiring manager, right? And like, you know, whoever's kind of in your your hiring committee. Um, but yeah, you got to be ruthless.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Okay. Yeah. No, I totally agree. And I I uh just like as a general life principle, zooming out, like setting high standards for who's in your life is I feel like uh incredibly important. Uh, you know, I I personally, I guess I'm an entrepreneur, so it's probably a little different, but I I do segment different parts of my life, but I do have like principles that definitely carry over, and it's probably a little more blended than maybe for some folks. But uh yeah, I mean, like the main thing is like values and standards, like you know, in terms of how we operate as people, and if we don't stand standards for the behavior we'll accept in our life, then other people will for us, right? Um, and you do have to be kind of ruthless in terms of who you like. I feel like who I choose to associate with in different like capacities, um, what's I gonna I'm gonna consider acceptable behavior uh because I also believe in this principle, like we are who we hang around most frequently. Um, and we will ultimately, you know, be kind of influenced. And there's some of us are kind of leaders and we can influence others and help pull them up. Uh, but even if you are that leader, the head of talent, it's like we still need to be surrounding ourselves with like folks that are gonna help us elevate our game and become like the next best version of ourselves, right? Like absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

And and that resonates with me so much. I had sort of this uh personality toxic trait growing in the caring so much what the wrong people thought. And now I care about what the right people think. And um, you know, so so yeah, absolutely. Like I went through this kind of cleansing of my soul period where you know, you kind of drop relationships in life that like no longer serve you. And there's a kind way to do that, right? Um, and then there's also like sometimes there's never a good way to do that. But um, that I think happens for most people. It certainly happened for me, which was really hard for me because growing up, I I cared a lot about what people think, the wrong people. I really just it just ate me up inside. I don't know why. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Yeah, it's um well, yeah, judgment can be hard, right? And sometimes the wrong people are the ones who are like judging you like so it's like you know, it's it can be hard to to kind of I think uh manage that. I do feel like that's critically important. I do think about that in uh my culture within like both my companies, and I I'm a lot more I think aware of it in my personal life too. Um, and it's like that balance, like it's also like who you're gonna invest. Like, I I've always like believed in relationships like okay, if somebody gives me their 100 10%, I'm gonna give them uh my 110%. But we also have to, yeah, just be cautious about like, okay, who are we gonna make those investments in? You know? Yeah.

Recruiters Thinking Like Founders

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Um definitely. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

One thing you said that like really resonated with me that I maybe because I am a founder, I love this, but um, you know, you said recruiters need to think like founders. Yeah, and I think this touched on like the equity piece, like that you mentioned, like, okay, imagine so this person has an impact on the equity. That's really cool. How do you how do you like articulate that to your recruiters and get them in that mind state?

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Yeah. Yeah. So a couple of like this kind of is, you know, shows up in a couple of different ways. One is, you know, obviously like when you're engaging with founders. Um, my last two CEOs, the current uh founder CEO, uh, as well as the last, both just incredibly smart. And I really worked on this myself of like when I'm bringing them something, like thinking very carefully, like holistically, how and and sort of like horizontally, how is this person thinking? And and is my sort of like, you know, solution with or sort of answer that I'm bringing them, is it helpful or is it hurtful? Right. And thinking very horizontally about like what are all the little bits and bobs that like they could be thinking, and that's gonna take some time, right? Like you need to know your founder um at the at the same time. So, like, yes, think like a founder, but like, you know, also think like your founder.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

Because that's you know, that's your partner, that's your stakeholder. Um but yeah, like I think at the end of the day, it's you know, you're accountable too, not just the hiring manager. Um, you know, you really need to like own your business. Yeah um and I think it can this also depends on the culture of the organization and how they view recruiting. So one of the number one questions that I um sort of try to get answered, questions that I have within any interview process that I go to is like, what is the culture around recruiting today? Uh how how bought in is everybody? Am I, you know, dragging people across the finish line, you know, just to make some hires? Um, and it can be hard to like figure out an interview process. Um, but yeah, you really want to uh like own your business. And if you can, and if an organization enables you to do that, likely means that they have like hopefully a good, a good culture around recruiting. So I also want to just be sensitive that like I actually realized that not, you know, every company views recruiting in the same way. Like sometimes we're viewed as like a strictly a cost center, but you know, we have a direct bottom line to like revenue and to oh yeah, to roadmap and like to the cut the success of our customers, right? Um, so yeah, you really gotta just strengthen your business acumen every single day.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

I always say like uh I like to think about like what we do as an investment manager because we are literally managing the largest investment a company will ever make, which is payroll. Um and so it's like, you know, like in your case, like you're managing an eight-figure annual investment. Like you have the ability to impact the ROI of that, and like how do you turn that into a nine-figure valuation or whatever, you know, you guys might already be there. I don't know, but like, you know what I mean? It's like how do you how do you do that? So it's it's yeah, that's how you have to, that's the level you have to play at.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And part of this like founder mentality is like you have to fight for the business. And like what that means is, you know, obviously like you're you're strengthening your business acumen, you're endorsing every hire, um, you're having hard conversations and difficult conversations, and you're the truth teller in the room. Like that is so hard to be is is the truth teller, especially when I think, you know, again, goes back to kind of culture around recruiting. If if you've sort of got this like uh recruiters are order takers, it's a huge such a missed opportunity, such a missed opportunity because what you're missing is the person who has uh so much intel, like we hold secrets in our hair. And and it's just it's a missed opportunity, like huge. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

100%. Yeah. That is something that I also obsess on on any hire I make is like their business strategy. I don't care what role they're in. I don't like it gonna be junior, like 22. I don't care. Like business strategic acumen, their ability to understand their own point of impact within the organization, how their role correlates to like the company's outcomes that you know, the North Star that company wants to achieve. Like, I I have an expectation that you know we could have an intelligent back and forth conversation about uh business and about their impact and how it's driving outcomes. And I expect smart questions from them speaking to that. And uh, you know, I look for folks that don't see their job as the JD, but see their job as the outcome that needs to be produced and a willingness to do whatever it takes. Um, you know, the type of people who say things like, call me the janitor, I don't care like whatever is gonna get us to that next level. Um, you know, those are the people that I find most valuable and successful in startup and scale-up environments too.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Yeah. Oh, yeah, 100% um agree with that. It's uh yeah, finding somebody that knows how to like flex up but can also flex down. Sure, yeah. And kind of and across too, right? So um yeah, I love that one.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

I love it. Yeah, that's that's a that's a good one. Um maybe that's even something we put in the title or the description.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

Love it. Love it. Yeah. I yeah, I I I'm I'm like equally bullish on both of those. Like pick your recruiters, like your relationships, and then like think like a founder. I'm like, I don't know if you can pick one.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Yeah, they're just both are like critically important. I feel like when you think like a founder, you pick you you you do the the the pick your hires like your relationships, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

Exactly, exactly.

Building Skills In AI And Fundraising

SPEAKER_01 35:00

And time to align is awesome. I love thinking about it that way. Um, well, so like look, I you know, chapter four. Um kind of fast-forwarding into the future. Um yeah, so just being silly. But yeah, so like when you think about your career moving forward, um, like who do you want to become? Like, what do you want to learn? What do you what are you focused on in terms of like developing over the next few years?

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Yeah, oh my gosh, yeah, great question. I have some more specific things. I I, you know, like I mentioned earlier, like I really want to deepen my engineering fluency. I think that that's a critical building block to, you know, not only as head of talent, but like, you know, if I am reaching for a head of a head of people role. Um and I um I'm having a lot of fun building. Like I want to keep building. I I feel like um, you know, I have a couple left in me.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

Um, yeah. And so yeah, I'm just gonna keep reaching up. Whatever, whatever that comes with, but more specifically, yeah, like, you know, skill set-wise, like engineering fluency, AI fluency. Um oh, I want to learn the fundraising process. I wanna, I wanna like, I have like a really, I think, solid, not to toot my own horn, which I did like learn from my last boss. I have a really solid like close, like candidate close. Like I'm talking about um, you know, how how I'm talking about equity and like projections of like exit valuations and how we're sort of like building value over time and how we're doing that thoughtfully and you know, and and not getting obsessed with like an exit date. And so I have I have a really solid close, but I think what I'm missing a little bit is just the behind the curtain of like what actually happens during the fundraising process. I think that will really strengthen my close, particularly with, you know, as we sort of build out C-suite, right? So that's more granularly, like, yeah, engineering influence and AI fluency, um, the fundraising process. And I think that will really help me like connect some dots. I think that goes back to like the business acumen and like being a partner to the business. So at the end of the day, like that's yeah, really when I do, I just want to get better. I just want to get better. I also, yeah, and then, you know, of course, like that I think goes to like the why. And you know, I I I want to build a life with options.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I think again, like this is like, you know, kind of going back to what you're saying, like thinking like a founder and really taking ownership of like learning about different parts of the business. Like you talk about like AI fluency, that's obviously huge right now, but also really understanding the fundraising motion, like given the type of company you're working in. Like, you want to understand how are the investors thinking about the business? How's it how are the owners, the uh the executives, the other executives on your team, how are they thinking about the business? Like, that's how you drive results.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

Like, um Yeah, I just want to be the best partner that I can possibly be to like my peers on the leadership team. And of course, like, you know, I want to be a great resource for employees, and I want um, you know, my team to like feel empowered and that I'm always fighting for them. And so yeah, I just want to get like better across the board.

Creating Options With Career Leverage

SPEAKER_01 38:06

Yeah, no, I I I love it. I love it. So you also you talked to me a lot like about in the prep part of our like before we recorded, and uh, you just briefly mentioned it too, like having options and keeping options open. So um why is that so important to you? And how do you like how do you think about doing that?

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Yeah. I think that uh this is deeply rooted from feeling like I didn't have options at one point. And and I grew up in, like I said, a loving household where you know, had, you know, went on a lot of road trips in Disneyland and Hawaii and certainly like didn't go without is what I'm trying to say. Um, but also was taught that like you need to work for your keep. And so when I sort of popped out of high school and oh, what am I gonna do with my life? And like wasn't really interested in school, um, you know, going back to school, I don't ever want to feel like that again. And so I have this, it's almost like my like toxic trait of using that as my fuel of, you know, I just always want to have options. Um, so I know I don't know if that's a lame answer, but no, it's it's like it doesn't have to be overly complex.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Like it's like you we want to, yeah, like that that makes a lot of sense. I think it is correlated to what you said, like terms of kind of earning your keep and and you know, just uh staying in a place where it's like, okay, what's the value I'm adding today? What's the value I'm adding tomorrow? Am I adding value in the right way that's really valuable, not only to my company, but to like the marketplace, and are there other kind of adjacent skill sets I can develop? Um, I think to something that you're like thinking like a founder, this is also correlated to that. Um, because it's like you're almost like you see yourself as a business and that concept of like potentially having multiple revenue streams, or at least the ability to have multiple revenue streams, or even within a company to transition roles, like okay, go from just TA focused to now like headed like overseeing like people and like implementing HRIS and like these different things that you're doing. It's like you're you're expanding like your the value that you're producing, and that does give you more options, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:05

Yeah, I want to lend my be able to lend myself to just various areas of the business. And I and I think that in a lot of ways that's the definition of an executive. You know, can you contribute outside of your own? I'm pretty sure that that's you know, the haven't gotten there yet. Um, but yeah, that's yeah, I think uh absolutely like founder, founder related. And I want to just be a really good, yeah, business partner.

Identity Beyond Work And Balance

SPEAKER_01 40:29

So I love it. That's awesome. So hey, let's like zoom out a little bit. So we talked about professionally, but I am curious, what do you have any thoughts on like what the next best version of yourself looks like, like holistically as a person? Like who do you want to become, like holistically?

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Yeah. So I read this book recently, um, uh a snippet from a book. I don't usually read like books on like work life, um kind of like a thriller, thriller junkie guy and like fiction junkie. I'm also I'm also reading Spanish books right now. I'm a Spanish learner. Um but uh I read this book about uh this gal who her identity was work. And when something happened with work, her total sense of being and sense of belonging was entirely just like disrupted. Like she went through a and I'm like, ooh, can't do that. So, you know, and I kind of I kind of went through that a little bit with the last acquisition. Like I was so bought into Airbase and I was so um, I was having so much fun. I'd been there three years. I was like reaching for new things and you know, really loved the people that I worked with and the team that I built. And then, you know, once I found out we were getting acquired, you know, I had this like really long sort of like lead time, which is absolutely like the the favored option. Um, but it it sort of like put this big ripple in my in my pond. And all of a sudden I was like, who am I? You know, insert Zoolander.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

And so I just would like to find sort of like my identity outside of work a little bit. Um, but I think that can be really hard to do because uh it's almost like you don't want to change anything because you know, being so like a bought in always has like kind of gotten you to where you are today. And so I I I want to find that skill to do both. I want to find the skill to do both without sacrificing one or the other. So I'm not sure if that's possible. Maybe it's not possible.

SPEAKER_01 42:27

I think it is. I think it is. I think there's this like myth because sometimes people look at some entrepreneurs that are like very unbalanced and they are totally wrapped in like um just you know, their their career. And there's nothing wrong with just being obsessively focused on anything, frankly, as long as it's like you know, morally fine, right? Like fine. It's just um it's not the only path. Like you can be really good in our our careers, and we could be really good to our families. It's not mutually exclusive. Yeah, I think it's hard. I think it's really hard to do to do like to maintain, put family first, put your health first, and put your career first. And it's it's like because those are, I mean, those are the big ones for me. It's like, how do I do and it's a constant, you know, and I even know like my team, my employees, my family, everyone, my customers, they all see that, like they see like we're all working so we're in a similar place, but I know they see that for me too, because it's like it's just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, like going from thing to thing to thing to try to manage, and it never gets uh it never gets easy. I think what's gonna maybe a little easier is like managing it emotionally, like just like being accepting, like I'm never gonna, it's never a perfect balance. It's like it's just you just do the best you can and you try to make judgment calls every day on what's most important. And you know, sometimes it's okay, I gotta show up for my daughter today, and uh it's just not gonna happen at work. And other times it's like, all right, I gotta work till 8 p.m. today, or you know, it's like, look, I'm working my tail off, but I haven't been to the gym, and now I'm like gaming. So like get back and you know what I mean.

Earning The Seat And Self Doubt

SPEAKER_00 44:08

That's where I'm at right now. Like my sciatic is acting up. And so yeah, like more Pilates, uh, more Spanish. Um, I'm you know, been taking Spanish for about a year and a half um on the side, and it's really hard to do. I have this newfound respect for people who go to work full time and you know get schooling done. And I'm a way toned down version of that. So um, yeah, I want to, I want to be bilingual, um, important to me. And then um, yeah, I also I think in general, maybe this is a little bit more like work related, but I have a really hard time feeling a stronger or feeling like a stronger. Connection to the idea that like I earned this seat and then I didn't wind up here by luck.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

And I don't have to feel you feel like you got here by luck.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

At times it's hard to sort of like yeah, like there was some sort of this one point in time around the time where I turned like 30. I'm 35 now. Um, and I thought, I just like, how did I get here? You know, I just sort of feel like I almost like blacked out in the last like, you know, 10 years of like building and it was, you know, and so um, yeah, maybe want to do some work there around like why why can I commend and admire so many people who have earned the same seat that I have, and I can't do that for myself.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

So so this is interesting. I actually thought you were uh in your upper 20s, but so you're so you're 35.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

And uh so that means so in uh 2016, you were the head of talent acquisition at Dream Box Learning. So you were ahead of talent at like your mid upper 20s, like at 26 or something.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

Yes. So yeah, like I don't think I don't function really fast.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

I mean, that's incredibly impressive, and particularly with the non-traditional background and how hard it is, you know, particularly again, like at our age, like it was I think this it's viewed a little different. Education, I mean, still there's some biases there, but I mean it was hard. And not only did you you're working in the the service industry, which can be really hard to break out of, um and and and then you get into recruiting, and then like in just a handful of years, you're head of TA. Like that's insanely impressive. Like it's I mean, you really like worked hard for this. I mean, you got there, and you got there so fast too, which is like super impressive.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

Yeah, I um yeah, I definitely, you know, I I've certainly seen people that had more of an aggressive growth path than I have. There's you know, a couple people that I really admire, but um yeah, I uh I also think that there is, you know, you gotta kind of like get the building blocks in. And it is weird that I don't feel like I've earned at times, I don't feel like I've earned the seat. I'm starting to kind of turn a corner a little bit and feel like, okay, yeah, that's how I got here. Or yeah, I did do all this stuff. Um, but I don't know. I don't know. I think a lot of people maybe um I don't like to use the word imposter syndrome because I feel like, you know, everybody kind of has it, but I'm not sure if it's if if that's what it is, but it almost feels like I um sort of like woke up out of a coma and then on her. Um, and I think it actually has a lot to do with sort of uh the education piece. It has a lot to do with um never feeling really successful in the place that I was spending the majority of my time. Um obviously like found my way and uh very like proud of being able to do that. Um, but there's still a little bit of a gap there. There's still a little bit of a blob, a blind spot of like how did I get here?

SPEAKER_01 47:45

Yeah, no, it's I think it's very normal. And I've I've spoken with, I mean, I'm sure if you've as folks who've listened to several episodes, like this is something that comes up a fair amount. And I think it's something everybody experiences. Like I've certainly experienced it at times, and um, it's gotten easier as I've gotten a little older. And I don't know why it would be like it just seems like you know, it's like when like logically you're like, there's no why would I even feel this way? But there's like the emotional, or it's like just sometimes like overcoming past wiring is just it takes time, I guess. But I I don't know, like for folks that are like so many people go through this, right? Um, particularly folks that are kind of around our area of their career where they maybe they're taking their first head of talent role or like they're moving up into the executive ranks for the first time, and it's like it could be a little scary, it's out of out of their comfort zone. Like, do you have any advice for them on how to like overcome these feelings?

SPEAKER_00 48:42

Yeah. Um, you and I didn't get to this point until I got to my 30s, but like you have to be okay with not having all the answers. Like you you just have to be okay with it. And I finally got to this point where, you know, I I I always beat myself up about like specific like meetings, like even if there's parts of it that went amazing, I'm always thinking about the things that like, oh, I wish I would have done this differently. And then I sort of like ruminate on it for like 24 hours, and I'm on to the next thing. And so um, you really have to be like just comfortable with the fact that it's a process and you like just, you know, you'll get you'll you'll sort of compound your knowledge and compound your experience, and eventually you'll sort of master this thing, and then you're on with the next thing. Yeah, so um, you have to be okay with you know not having all the answers um and failing. You have to be okay with like failing. And you know, I've finally got to the point where I've sort of had meetings and I get up and I go, ooh, that wasn't my best work.

Moving From Hero To Builder

SPEAKER_01 49:42

You know, it's it's it's really helped me. And um I I've talked about it so much, like for people tuning in, they're probably like, oh, really? Again, man. Um, but uh we had a guest on the show a while back, um, maybe a few months ago, Joe Wilson. And he was the COO for Microsoft in Europe. Oh so he basically ran a small country. Um and so um, but he had this like he told me this thing, and I don't know why. For me, this like resonated deeply, and it's been like an actual game changer in my quality of life at work and how I approach my job, and I think it's making me more successful. Um But he told me it's like he told me that this concept of like moving from a hero to a builder mindset. And I don't know, it's like maybe growing up as an athlete or what, but it's like this the idea of like a healer mindset is like your hero mindset is like you have to score the game-winning goal, right? It's like everything is super intense. Every meeting, it's like you gotta execute at the highest level. And he says, like, the the reason it just doesn't work in business is because it's like you have 10 meetings every day and you have it like you know, like for a whole week. It's not just a moment, it's extended to 40, 50, 60, however many hours you're working. And so when you're operating at that level of pressure nonstop for months on end, you don't do your best work. And he was talking about like when he, you know, one company he was scaling, a VC pulled him aside because after a board meeting, like he just he was like, Look, man, like we think you're the right guy for the job, but not how you're operating today. Because again, he was kind of in this hero, like constantly feeling like he had to knock it out of the park. And he said, like, like moving to a builder mindset, and it's like just building a little bit every day.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

It's that's so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

Yeah, like don't try to knock it out of the park, like stop trying to hit. I mean, like just opposed to trying to knock it out of the park once, figure out like how do we build a process so we could do this consistently? Like, just think about building a little bit every day. You don't have to be you don't have to crush it every second. Just just build, just keep building, trying to get better. And like that psychological shift for me was like it felt like it alleviated so much pressure. Like, even like getting on like customer calls, or like, you know, now I'm getting into some investor calls with one of my startups. And it's like, all right, like, hey, look, doing something valuable. I'm just gonna show up and kind of do what I do. And there's very few moments in life where it comes down to like one moment, right? Like there's usually hundreds of moments that lead to success. So I don't know. I just thought that was super helpful. And it's kind of adjacent to like what we're talking about with you know, performance-based anxiety, that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

Yes, exactly. I also read uh someone, and gosh, I can't remember who. I like I said, I read a lot of sort of other things that people are posting and and talking about and trying to learn from them. And um, she had talked about how she'd worked her whole life to get to the executive team. And she finally got there and she was so disappointed because everybody was like her. And she was like, had put all this sort of like angst into like, oh, when I get there, when I get there, when I become one of these, you know, people, and and she gets there and she's so disappointed that she had spent so many years kind of putting this on a pedestal, and then and then they're exactly like her, you know.

SPEAKER_01 52:58

Right. Yeah, she still doesn't have the answers to the universe.

SPEAKER_00 53:02

Yeah, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 53:04

Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 53:05

Yeah, for real. It's uh that's that's definitely true. It's like yeah, I feel like sometimes when you're kind of like at our stage, it's like we it just takes time to like learn how to be comfortable in your own skin. It's like that's you know, we're learning our skill sets, but we're also learning how to just have that level of like self-acceptance and and just yeah, comfort, yeah. Like being comfortable, being uncomfortable. Yeah, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 53:33

Oh, just be yourself, be yourself, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:35

You really you do it's like that's sort of like everybody says that, but like um I think if if you if someone comes, I mean you gotta be polished in business, like you gotta know how to show up and like you know, but yeah, if you put on too much of a facade, like people can't trust you, like they don't know what like you're not literal, yeah. If you come into if you're trying to be too perfect, it's like and even if like you sell it, like it's still gonna create a layer of separation where people are gonna maybe they'll like look like oh wow, I'd love to be that person, but they're not you're not gonna connect. Um that that took me some time to learn, too, is like just to kind of like dial it back, like just be transparent and it's okay to not know stuff. Yeah, like it's okay to not know stuff. I don't I don't know. I think as you get older, so you realize like how much we don't know, like we're just like like constantly just you know, in my early 20s, I thought I knew like everything, and now like the older I get, I'm like no, like I actually I don't know like most of the things I thought I did, you know.

Closing Thanks And Sign Off

SPEAKER_02 54:34

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 54:36

Well, Lauren, hey, this has been uh a lot of fun. It's been really just nice getting to know you, and uh I am very appreciative of your willingness to kind of come on the show and and share your insights and experience a little bit about yourself for their audience.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

Thank you so much. It was really a pleasure. And um, yeah, a little little uh different talking about myself and my path and almost uh almost therapeutic. So thank you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

Yeah, I I had a really, really nice time. So um, and hey, everybody tuning in, thank you for joining us and we'll talk to you again soon. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 55:12

Bye.