Ep. 76 - How to Succeed in Academia without Sacrificing Your Well-Being (with Dr. Roxanne Donovan)

Is it possible for women of color and other marginalized faculty to be successful in the increasingly toxic culture of the academy? How do we survive without sacrificing personal wellness and well-being?  

In this episode, Dr. Roxanne Donovan and I explore these crucial questions and discuss some practical ways we can bring social justice values to our work as teachers, scholars, and practitioners.

A licensed psychologist, professor, and founder of Well Academic, Roxanne has been a huge trailblazer and source of inspiration in promoting wellness and social justice. She has dedicated her career to helping faculty navigate academia in a way that is both fulfilling and sustainable.

Check out Leslie's website at www.YourWordsUnleashed.com!

The three ways Leslie can help you in 2025:

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#2: Four-month Career Reset Program for Overwhelmed Academics who want to reconnect with purpose. Over the course of 6 hour-long sessions, we’ll clarify your personal career vision, create space for what matters, overcome internal obstacles to change, and define what success means on your own terms so you can work less and live more.

#3: Group Zoom Workshops that balance personal well-being with writing productivity. Topics include transforming your dissertation into a book; connecting to the deeper purpose of your work; as well as boundary setting.

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Transcript

EP 76: How to Survive Academia Without Sacrificing Well-Being

Leslie: Today, I am so pleased to welcome Dr. Roxanne Donovan. Dr. Roxanne Donovan is a licensed psychologist, professor of psychology at Kennesaw State University, and founder of Well Academic, where she's coached hundreds of women of color faculty toward healthier, more joyful lives. A nationally recognized expert on well-being and social justice, Dr. Donovan's work has been featured in media outlets such as The Washington Post, The Conversation, and The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Her two co-authored books with Drs. Karen Suyamoto and Grace Kim, which are called Teaching Diversity Relationally and Unraveling Assumptions, are available now. And you can find her at wellacademic.com. 

Welcome Roxanne. 

Roxanne: Happy to be here. 

Leslie: First, let me just say a little bit about how we know each other. So Roxanne was actually an important part of my journey to becoming a full-time coach. I had known about Well Academic for a long time, really admired it. I saw on the website that there was a team of women of color, faculty coaches, and I reached out to Roxanne in early 2021 to find out if I could join the team.

And it was deep into the pandemic and I was just starting to get back into coaching after taking nearly a year off after having my son. And Roxanne was so warm and welcoming. We both realized that we had both taught at UMass Boston and she met with me regularly and gave me several clients that helped me really regain my footing as a coach.

And I left the Well Academic team so that I could focus on creating my own business, but I'm still so grateful. for her generosity and for modeling a really holistic approach to academia. So today I wanted to talk to Roxanne about wellness in the academy and how to bring social justice values to our work as teachers, scholars, and practitioners.

Roxanne: Love it. And I did not realize it was 2021. Was it really that long ago? 

Leslie: Yes. 

Roxanne: Wow. Wow. You're doing amazing things. 

Leslie: Oh my goodness. Thank you so much. I still am very inspired by the fact that you're both a faculty member and running a business on the side. So we're going to dive into those things. First thing I always like to ask people is, can you describe your journey through academia and talk a bit about your research?

Roxanne: That's a good question. I am now in my 20th year in academia, and I'm still a little bit shocked that I'm an academic because none of the roads I was on led here. I was born in Guyana, moved to New York City when I was eight. So, as a daughter of immigrants, as a-one-and-a-half-generation immigrant myself, my parents really wanted me to have security.

That's all they wanted. And for them, being in business. was how I was financially secure. We were economically vulnerable when we moved to New York City from Guyana. And so I was a good daughter. I did what they said and I went the business route. In fact, I got my first undergraduate degree in business. I worked as an intern at AT& T all four years while I was in college.

I ended up taking a job after graduation at AT& T in their national sales office. And Leslie, I hated every second of it. And I don't normally use the word hate, but it was like, every time I put on that suit to go to work, I was putting on a facade. I didn't feel like I was doing meaningful work that was aligned with my values.

It was just really bad, but you know, my parents were really proud of me and I was doing well at AT&T. I felt like there were these golden handcuffs on me and I was going to be stuck there forever. But I had this secret love for psychology. In fact, the other day I was going through some papers and I came across this eighth-grade homework assignment where the teacher asked, what did you want to do when you grew up?

And I put clinical psychologist. Now, I know that I have always wanted to be a psychologist, but I didn't realize that my eighth grade self even knew what a clinical psychologist was, but I put that down. And so I had this love for psychology, but again, it seemed unimaginable that I would do anything about this.

And then something really funny happened. I was promoted from being a salesperson to being a negotiator at AT& T. And for a variety of ridiculous reasons, I had one week to figure out where to live and to move, actually. I was living in Brooklyn at a time and I had to just get out and get a place and be in New Jersey.

And I didn't know New Jersey well. This was before Google Maps, before Yelp. And so I had to just figure out a place to live. So I drove, oh my God, if my kids told me this is how they found an apartment, I would be mortified, but I drove to my location, got back on the expressway, went one exit, I don't even know, North, South, East, West.

I don't know where I was, but I went one exit away, got off, stopped at the nearest apartment complex, asked them if they had an availability, didn't even know if it was a safe neighborhood, didn't do nothing. They said yes. And that's how I found my apartment. Well, because I was moving from New York City to New Jersey, I was like, maybe I can take psych classes if I'm close to a university, right?

Because I won't be working 70 to 80 hours like I was in sales. And so I was like, I don't know where Rutgers is, but I know Rutgers has different campuses in New Jersey. So the first day I was at my new job, I asked a colleague, I said, where's Rutgers? Because I don't really know where it is, and I want to take some classes.

And he was like, well, where do you live? So I told him, he's like, well, what street do you live on? So I told him, he said, Roxanne, Rutgers, the New Brunswick campus is like 10 minutes on that same street, 10 minutes down the road from you. And I was like, what? This is the universe speaking to me. So I signed up for my first psych class and I figured if I was going to study psych, I was going to do statistics.

Wow. Because you need statistics to understand psychology. At least the science part of psychology. And I sucked at statistics as a business major. I mean, it was the only class in my entire college career I withdrew from because I was getting an F minus. Like, you gotta work to get an F minus, but I was really trying.

Long story short, I ended up doing okay when I took the class again because it was a group class that I made sure I took with a genius friend of mine and we did the work together. So I take statistics, and I understood it, and I loved it. And then I take another class, abnormal, loved it, psychopathology, loved it.

And I'm just doing this to fill that longing that I had for something meaningful, for something that I cared about. I wasn't doing it for any purpose, like I still couldn't imagine being a graduate student. And then I took black psychology and the faculty member there was like, Oh, do you want to do some research with me?

I was like, okay. So I did research with him. I was taking about one or two classes each semester and I did some research with him. And he said, you know, Roxanne, you've always wanted to be a psychologist. Why don't you consider applying to graduate school? I think you might have taken enough classes to be very close to getting a second undergraduate degree.

I'm So I went to advising and sure enough, I was two or three classes away from getting my second undergraduate degree in psychology. Wow. And he invited me to consider it. Leslie, I just, I wasn't brave enough to apply. I had a horrible boss in the negotiation world, and there was this confluence of events.

It's funny that my way to academe has been about happenstance, happenstance of meeting that professor who mentored me, happenstance of being at a location which put Rutgers close by. But. I see this as a lucky moment, and sometimes you don't realize it's luck, but having a horrible boss was very lucky for me.

Because I wanted an exit plan and I remember very distinctly, I was in our annual review and that's when they would give you your bonus check. He, he moves the bonus check across the table and waits for me to open it. I open it. I look at it. I tell him, thank you. And he's like, well, I thought you'd be a little bit more, I don't know, excited about the check.

He said, it's the highest I've given to anyone. And, and it was, it was a big check. And I was like, no, I'm very grateful. Thank you very much. And I went back to my desk and it was that moment that it became so clear to me that what I was making in the business world, which provided me a living that I was very grateful for, but money was not my motivator.

Like I felt nothing. And it's a very privileged position to say that because I was making a decent living, but the additional money wasn't motivating. And that's when I thought having this boss that was very oppressive being in this place. And then not being motivated by the one thing that I was getting, I was like, I'm out.

And so I went back to my mentor. I said, I'm ready. Let's apply. I said, I don't know anyone who will accept someone who looks like their psychology is their side hustle versus their main desire, but let's do it. I applied with his help and I ended up getting into several programs and ended up at the University of Connecticut, working with an amazing mentor, Dr. Michelle Williams. And I went to graduate school to be a psychologist, to be a full time therapist, like that, that was my eight year old self's wish, that was my eighth grade self's wish. And again, because of happenstance, in my second year of graduate school, Michelle was slated to teach a class, Theories of Personality, and she couldn't do it for... I forget whatever reason.

And the clinical director at the time asked me if I wanted to teach, which is unheard of because I didn't have my master's. Usually you couldn't teach until you were like a third or fourth year. But because of the way my schedule was, I was one of the few graduate students that had availability during that time slot.

And I said yes. I entered the classroom and that's all she wrote. Like, I changed my entire trajectory. I loved it so much. I did well. I kept being invited to teach. So I taught several times and I went on the academic track. And I think because I've had an experience of being In a career and in a job that was so demoralizing for me, my approach to being an academic and to the struggles of academia come with that lens.

Like I know what it's like to not have flexibility, what it's like to be micromanaged, and I value my freedom, my time freedom. And I value intellectual pursuits and academe gives that to me. So as rocky as the road through academia has been, I still say, and I mean it, that the worst day in academia has still been better for me than my best day in business.

Leslie: Yeah, and I think that that is a really useful set of experiences that brought you here because you could test out, where do I feel more of a sense of purpose? 

Roxanne: And it's a double edged sword, and we can talk about that later. Doing work that is meaningful and purposeful and that you have freedom with can set you up into a space of complete and utter depletion and overwork.

So it's got this beautiful, amazing thing, but we also don't talk about what does it mean when there's so much need and so little resources. In these inequitable spaces that we work in, that you can feel ridiculously over responsible. And add to that doing work that you love, that's when work oozes into every corner of your life and leaves space for nothing else.

It's definitely a huge risk. 

Leslie: It's, yeah, it's a risk no matter which direction you go. It sounds like though you were sort of, by starting while academic, You were creating a space to address some of these things. Can you talk a little bit about what inspired you to start it?

Roxanne: Well, there's the big all caps WHY, and then there's a multitude of other reasons.

And I don't usually share my all caps WHY, but I'm going to share with you because I think you would understand and your audience would understand. So. Well, academic is my small way of making academia a more just, humanizing, healthy space for women of color and other minoritized faculty. And yeah, I get that it's like audacious in its hope and as a goal.

Really, that is why I started WellAcademic. We don't have spaces of belonging. We don't have spaces that we can show up and be messy. An authentically human academe can be a very dehumanizing space for us where we have to perform confidence. We have to perform perfection or deal with a variety of backlash.

We deal with backlash even when we perform perfection. And so I wanted something different for us. I wanted something different for me. And at base, of course we do other things, right? We do coaching, we do writing communities, we do professional wellness retreats. But at base, I want it to be a humanizing space where people can be whole.

Leslie: When did you start it? 

Roxanne: 2015. So it's our 10 year anniversary this 2025 now. 

Leslie: And I think it's so, so important because I don't see a lot of spaces like this being created for faculty of color. And so social justice is something that really is infused through everything you do. Maybe it's a good idea just to like go back to basics and be like, what do you mean by social justice?

How do you know it's there? How do you bring that into your work? 

Roxanne: You know, whether it's my scholarship or my practices, I am really dedicated to critical consciousness raising. And so what do I mean by that? I mean, make visible. Those invisibilized, interlocking systems of oppression, racism, sexism, homophobia, bigenderism, transphobia, heterosexism, those systems of oppression, which are intersectional and interlocking, make visible how those interlocking systems of oppression influence all aspect of our lives, our access, our experiences, our mental health, physical wellness outcomes, And that's what I mean by social justice.

So whether it's my scholarship, where I'm nuancing the strong Black woman, to talk about how the consequences of internalizing the strong Black woman. influences Black women's mental health, or I'm writing about how to teach diversity in this very anti DEI polemical space that we find ourselves, or what I'm doing right now, which is writing a book with my colleague Dr. Nicole Guillory on Black feminist mothering. Or my coaching, I'm about making those invisibilized interlocking systems of oppression visible. Why is that the base that I start on? Because you can't resist what you don't recognize. And so many of us, even when you're social justice scholars, It's either abstracted, right?

It's like, okay, we live in an oppressive society. I know this, I experience it. But how it's influencing your everyday decision making, why you're overloaded, why it's painful to say no to that student of color who's coming to you asking for you to be their mentor, when you're already overloaded and you have too many students.

Like we don't have that conversation about. How these systems of oppression manifest in our everyday lives that make it hard for us to follow through on our intentions of wellness, our intentions about how we spend our time. So I start there and that's what I mean by social justice. An aspect of it is critical consciousness raising, but I also start there in my coaching because I think it is so important for us to stop blaming ourselves for the struggles that we experience being in these toxic spaces.

And so the people that I work with, their inner critic is like on fire. Blaming, I should have said it differently. I should have presented differently. I should have said, no, I should have better boundaries. And I blame self help. I blame meritocracy. I blame our individualistic society. I have a really, really ambivalent relationship with self help.

And part of the reason is because the belief that when you succeed, it's all on you. You did it. That's amazing. The flip side of that is when you're in struggle, it's on you too. It's because of you. Not because our choices are always in conversation. Our individual choices are always in conversation with interpersonal, institutional, systemic, and structural factors.

Nope, not that, right? Right. You did something wrong. You need better organization. You need. And. Yes, we all need to be better organized and to plan better, but a nicer planner is not going to change the systemic pressures that we experience in academia and in our culture at large. And so, by really making those invisibilized social structures ways of being visible, I invite people to give themselves some grace, just a little bit of grace.

To kind of quiet down the inner critic and the self blame, to foster more self compassion. And I do this because I think that's a gentler way of going through the world, to give ourselves some self compassion. You know, the world is hard enough on us, but also self compassion we know in the literature paradoxically creates space for resilience, it creates space for learning, it increases motivation.

And And it allows us to follow through on our goals. And I don't know about you, but I didn't learn that going on, going on. No one was like, be gentle with yourself, Roxanne. It was, you got to work twice as hard to get half as far. And so for many of our cultural spaces, this is not something we're socialized into, but.

Self blame and beating ourselves up paradoxically is demotivating. Self-compassion, paradoxically is motivating and allows us to follow through on our, whatever it is, our justice hopes, our wellness hopes, our boundaries, things like that. 

Leslie: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . That is such a beautiful way to articulate it. And you know, as a sociologist, surrounded by folks who are dedicated to social justice issues.

It's always perplexed me, like exactly what you were talking about, that people could actually understand systemic structures of oppression and yet not see how they are operating in relationship to them. So like the self blame. So maybe it wasn't what you were saying, but I'm just thinking in terms of like folks I've known who are very well versed in all of this stuff and yet personally take it all on themselves. Do you know what I mean? 

Roxanne: Hmm. You know, as you're saying that, I wonder if there's something about the intersection of my experience in psychology and in ethnic studies that kind of informs that. So psychology is very individualistic and it's about how are your choices influencing your wellness.

We're very nascent, particularly certain parts of mainstream psychology, we're nascent in kind of understanding how systems and structures influence wellness, right? Liberation psychology, Black psychology is doing that work, but we're not very good at it as a discipline as a whole. Ethnic studies, on the other hand, is about like, how are these systems and structures influencing our culture, influencing our outcomes, influence things writ large.

But it's not necessarily brought down to, and it's making me as an individual unwell. Right. So I think there's something about that intersection that allows for nuancing and complication, both of the system and the structure, like making that visible, but also And how are you as an individual navigating these structures and systems while also, because I think part of wellness is not only individual wellness, but collective radical healing, right?

But also how are you maintaining and sustaining your wellbeing so that you can challenge these systems of oppression? So that we can all move towards a more just space. So it's not only about you as an individual being well, the goal is that we're all well, and we're all living in a space that's moving us towards wholeness, moving us towards health, moving us towards connection and belonging.

Leslie: Yeah, no, absolutely. And so a question that comes up is whether you think it's possible to be successful in the Academy, which can be very toxic, as we know, and well, at the same time. 

Roxanne: Whew. So my short and very essentialized and very simplistic answer is yes. My caveat is you have to kind of redefine what success is.

Because if we don't redefine success, we're going to internalize that very white, cisheteropatriarchal, capitalistic view of success. Which aligns with how long your CV is. Like your worth in the academy, let's just be real about it. Your worth in the academy. is about your number of grants, your number of publications, et cetera, et cetera.

Right. And I think there's a way that we need to kind of acknowledge that because it's not like you want to be fired. You want to, you have to kind of do the work in academia, but when you're doing the work in this hierarchical system from a racialized, gendered, oppressed body, There's all this extra pressure to not only succeed in the way of scholarship, but to show up in a bazillion different areas, to like show up for every student in struggle because there's not enough of you, to do all the things.

And so part of what we do is, We follow the path that the institution and this white heteropatriarchal capitalistic society has set for us in making our CV as long. And then we're also overburdened by way of service and overburdened by way of teaching because we end up teaching classes, many of us teaching classes that are social justice related or diversity related, where there's a huge emotional component.

The difference between teaching personality and teaching psych of gender or Black women's health, like, huge as far as the emotional toll. And so all of the spaces that we're occupying in the three spaces in academia, teaching, mentoring, research and scholarship, and then service, is taking an astronomical amount of energy.

We just don't leave it at, okay, here are these interlocking systems of oppression, good luck. Mm hmm. So how do you refuse and resist these narratives of your worth being tied to showing up to all these spaces? And how do you find ways to be very singular in different seasons about where you're putting your energy?

So what do I mean by that? The thing I say in my writing communities all the time, or whether I'm on the mountain with women of color at my women of color faculty retreat is the same thing. Laser beam versus floodlight. How do you decide what is the most impactful thing that you can be doing with your time that aligns with your values and with institutional requirements, how can you decide to hyper focus on that?

Which is going to require painful, and I mean this like literally painful, decisions about what you have to release or minimize or diminish in your work. And I say it's painful because for many of us showing up in these shared governance committees or in hiring committees or in mentorship of students and faculty, that's our heart.

That's why we came to the Academy to do. And because many of us are doing this from minoritized and oppressed positionalities, this is sacred work for us. It's not just optional. And that's what I mean by starting at that base. Because we need to hold the pain of what it takes to be well. And I know that seems counterintuitive.

Yeah, it's painful to have to say, Okay, this season, I need to be focusing on my writing, which means that I, because I'm in an under resourced university where I'm the only, or a few, I'm going to be pulled and stretched and asked to do things that matter to me, but that I literally cannot. If I want to be well, if I want to rest, if I want to heal, because many of us are broken, it's not like, let's cope with what's happening right now.

It's like, let's heal from all the things that have happened already. And then the pain and the harm is still happening. So, the healing, like we need spaciousness to heal, in other words. We need spaciousness to heal, and in knowledge economies and for knowledge workers like us, there is no off time. And so we have to fight for that spaciousness, which is hard to do when the work you're doing is a major part of your identity.

It's aligned with institutional expectations of you to be all things to all people and we're marginally accepted to begin with, right? And so we feel like, oh, if I have a super long CV or if I do all the things and then some that the institution asks, then I'll find belonging. So I say all this to say there's no uncontested path.

You do what the institution asks in all the ways the institution asks, then your wellness and relationships are going to suffer. You set boundaries, you laser focus on what's most important. That's contested too, because it's going to feel really bad. To be well in toxic spaces means you have to do like awful things and not awful things, but you have to say no at things that pull on your heart and pull on your very sense of identity.

And so what I try to say with the people that I work with and remind them, not only that our choices are really influenced by the social structural ways of being, particularly in the institutions that we're in, but that social justice can be done in many different ways. The problem is you lose your impact when you're doing it in all the ways.

Like my writing is social justice oriented. And so I may not be mentoring all the students that I want to, and I seriously want to mentor every student, every faculty that comes to me. I just am not. But if I'm laser focusing on my writing, that's another way I'm making an impact. And this is the season of service of maybe building that Black Studies program.

That also is a form of social justice. So it's about kind of complicating these essentialized expectations of us in the academy that dehumanize us. If we lived in a society that valued wellness, that valued time off, that valued spaciousness, we wouldn't be in conflict. If we were at institutions where there were tons of us, all doing similar work.

If I said no, I would know that there are other people to pick up the mantle and do the work that care as much as I do. But when we're in under resourced places, the pressure is seriously hard. And until we are in those whole humanizing spaces that value wellness, and I do believe we'll get there one day, we're definitely not there now, until we're in those spaces.

Individuals have to make awful choices, but I hope those choices are in concert with being well enough to challenge the systems. So it's a both and. You gotta be well. You gotta be well in order to challenge systems. 

Leslie: So tell me how someone would know that they're well. Because we all know when we're unwell.

Roxanne: I think it's really hard. I'm teaching Black women's health for the first time in a long time. So I've done a lot of prep. Exciting prep. Done deep dive into research that I haven't looked at in a minute. And what stands out for me is that many of us might be well on the outside. Like maybe we're not quote unquote sick.

So well as being the absence of illness. Right, right. But our bodies are still paying the price because being in these spaces requires high effort coping and high effort coping does a wear and tear on the body, right? It's called allostatic load, right? The amount of energy the body has to put forth to deal with stressors, continual chronic stressors, not acute stressors that are short term.

Okay. Wears and tears on the body, and we know that the wear and tear can be quite significant for minoritized folks. There's even a whole area, a framework, called weathering, which is looking at how things like gendered racism influences the wear and tear on the body. Disparate social conditions, inequitable social conditions wear and tear on the body. Like that is such a wake up call for any of us. Even if we're not feeling unwell, there is a price that we're paying. to be in these inequitable, toxic environments. And that price may not become visible until we're older, but you can see signs of it. High blood pressure, high cholesterol, A1Cs that are out of whack.

Like those are kind of the precursors, the body's alarm bells that chronic stress is at work, right? And unfortunately, our medical profession, like mainstream psychology, look at individual and genetic consequences, not necessarily the socio structural factors. So that is depressing. But what do we also know?

We also know in medicine and in psychology that positive social support as just one practice strategy heals us at a cellular level. And so how do we create spaces where historically excluded folks can show up as themselves, like be messily human and get the support and love, right, to feel a sense of belonging.

And frankly, that's what I try to do in Well Academic. I'm like, I want y'all to show up messily. I want you to show up in the writing communities, which are also centered in wellness. And just be like, I know I'm supposed to write, but I can't, and I hate it. And, you know, and to be real about it and then to get support and be seen and see yourself reflected in other people in that community.

And not just always feeling like, is there something wrong with me? Everyone's living their best life and I'm in struggle. To know that you are not the only one. And then the collectively, in this counter-cultural community, collectively refuse. Collectively resist, and there is such power in that collective resistance because these systems of oppression are crazy-making.

These things happen, and you're like, that just got said, or that policy got, like, why is everyone okay with it? Is it just me? Is there something wrong with me? Sometimes it's so overt, you know, oh, nah, these folks are, these folks are tripping. But more than not, it's nuance, and you're the one that's like, this isn't right, but you feel alone on the island that this isn't right.

We're in an institution that doesn't care that we're unwell. And they keep piling more things to do, ratcheting up the standards, and it is hurting people. It is hurting particularly people with caregiving responsibilities, more often women. It's hurting people in marginalized bodies, like, am I the only one?

And to be in a collective where your views are represented and reflected, that is healing. And this is what we know. And so it's not necessarily a strategy, but a practice. Can you be in spaces where you're seen and valued just as you are without having to leave parts of you behind in order to be accepted?

And I think that is a powerful first step is to find those types of spaces. 

Leslie: Oh, Roxanne, thank you so much for creating these spaces. You've been a huge trailblazer and again, like a major source of inspiration and solace for a lot of folks who are suffering in the academy. So how can listeners connect with you and learn more about what you're doing, your research and your coaching programs, et cetera?

Roxanne: Best place to start is go to wellacademic.com. One word. I know you'll put it in the show notes. Thanks. And join the free community. I offer a bi-monthly... bi-monthly? No, twice a month. I send out a newsletter called Wellness Wednesday. And sometimes it's just about, you know, the snow that's happening in Georgia.

But a lot of times it's about how do folks kind of navigate these interlocking systems of oppression in ways that preserve health and wellness. 

Leslie: Thank you so much again, Roxanne, for sharing your insights, your time, your wisdom. today with my audience and listeners, please find her at wellacademic.com.

Join her Wellness Wednesday newsletter. It gives tons of useful tips and advice to help you manage life in academia in a healthier way. So thanks again, Roxanne. 

Roxanne: Thanks, Leslie. It's been a pleasure.