In this episode we speak to Saskia Videler, Content Architect at City of Antwerp, about globalization. We discuss what it means to look at things from other cultures' points of view, how we treat refugees, the cost of the English language taking over the world, and much, much, more.
Referenced in this episode
Workshop
Stopping the Cycle of Oppression
Book
Closing the Loop by Sheryl Cababa
Twitter
Saskia Videler
Our intro and outro music is "Humbug" by Crowander
In this episode we speak to Saskia Videler, Content Architect at City of Antwerp, about globalization. We discuss what it means to look at things from other cultures' points of view, how we treat refugees, the cost of the English language taking over the world, and much, much, more.
Referenced in this episode
Workshop
Stopping the Cycle of Oppression
Book
Closing the Loop by Sheryl Cababa
Twitter
Saskia Videler
Our intro and outro music is "Humbug" by Crowander
(Transcript courtesy Louise Boydon)
David Dylan Thomas
Welcome, once again, to the ‘Lately, I've been thinking about…’ podcast. I am here in Seattle, also known as the original Lands of the Duwamish and I am here with my very special guest, Saskia Videler. Did I get that?
Saskia Videler
Yes, that was really great!
David Dylan Thomas
I’m doing so well today! Saskia, tell the good folks at home what it is that you get into?
Saskia Videler
What it is that I get into? So, professionally I work as a content architect at the city of Antwerp, Belgium. That's really fun. So that is my full-time gig and I've been freelancing before that for about 12 and a half years. So a freelance consultant, and I'm still secretly doing a little bit of freelancing on the side.
David Dylan Thomas
Nice! We won't tell anyone this!
Saskia Videler
And besides that, I like to get creative a little bit. I'm doing an art thing on Friday night.
David Dylan Thomas
Really? What is the art thing?
Saskia Videler
Yeah, so it's like graphic stuff – painting and drawing and it's like an exploring year, so you get to explore different techniques, which is really great.
David Dylan Thomas
Oh, interesting.
Saskia Videler
Yeah, because I like the variety and it will help me find my medium, hopefully.
David Dylan Thomas
Yeah, okay, so, I'm going to go ahead and ask the million-dollar question. Saskia, what have you been thinking about lately?
Saskia Videler
What I have been thinking about lately, I would say is globalization.
David Dylan Thomas
Okay, let's do this! So, tell me what have you been thinking about globalization?
Saskia Videler
Well, it started as a small thing, a small thought about how when you travel – and I like to travel and I know you like to travel as well – and you get into a different city and often it is that there are so many things alike. For instance, probably a famous example is coffee shops. There are more and more of the same coffee shops, you know the ones with wood and plants.
David Dylan Thomas
I was just going to say, we are in Seattle, you can say Starbucks, it's fine!
Saskia Videler
Yeah, I mean, Starbucks is definitely a part of it, but also independent coffee shops. Everybody seems to go for the same aesthetics.
David Dylan Thomas
Yeah, that's true.
Saskia Videler
You see it in so many things because I also really like to travel to just look at people and look at the difference in how they dress and how they move around. It's kind of like say 15 years ago or so, it was much, much easier to more or less pinpoint, oh, that's probably a French person, or even like I'm from the Netherlands right, and when I started going to Belgium, which is a long time ago, about 44 years, oh, no, 24 years – sorry, I’m tired and I’m also 43! There was just a much bigger difference in how people looked. They would have very different clothing, very different from Dutch people. You would see that now I am not in the Netherlands; I am now in Belgium. And now it's just like, you don't see that difference anymore. But it's also in the bigger cities that it feels like if you were to be blindfolded and dropped into a city that you don't actually necessarily know where you are.
David Dylan Thomas
Just prior to this, we were having a conversation about accents and that might be the one last thing that helps you know where you are, languages and accents, because I think you're right. I think that styles of dress, the cliche is when you see a movie that takes place in Africa and you see an impoverished village or something, but everyone's wearing American t-shirts, that's sort of a cliché.
But the idea is, yeah, you know, Coke took over the world. You can go anywhere in the world and you can find a Coke. That was, I mean, in a way, do you think that was the promise of globalization or do you think that was just sort of an after effect?
Saskia Videler
Oh gosh. It depends the way you look at it because it was definitely Coke's promise. I think it goes back way further than that. It goes back to the colonizers who thought that their way of living was much better than the way that the people who were already living in the lands that were being colonized were, and they were enforcing their way of living on them. I guess, in that sense, it was the promise of globalization, but it goes back a long way. It goes back to colonilization.
David Dylan Thomas
I mean, what would you say is the difference, if there is one, between globalization and colonization?
Saskia Videler
I would say that they're both intentional. I think maybe there's a factor of aggression that is probably higher in colonization.
David Dylan Thomas
So maybe more weapons in colonization than globalization.
Saskia Videler
I would think so. I think that would be a big difference. Also I'm not sure, it just feels like globalization is more of a commercial aspect to it while colonization also has, of course a huge commercial aspect to it, but it's deeper than that. It's just more than just a quick buck or anything.
David Dylan Thomas
Yeah, and here's another thing is I want to make sure, what is your definition of globalization? Because when I say globalization, all I'm sort of thinking of is, oh, it's a connected economy now. What happens in China affects us and all that sort of stuff. There're these all sort of downstream effects of that, but that feels very vague. When you think globalization, if someone asks you to define it, what do you mean by globalization?
Saskia Videler
I'm also thinking about how the products and services of one nation's organization also infiltrates the culture of another nation. But of course, your definition is probably more correct than mine. I would say that that's definitely also a part of that.
David Dylan Thomas
Cultural colonization almost feels a little more insidious than just sort of like blatantly, okay, we've shown up and taken over your town and now you have to do what we say. But it seems to be like if I think of the way that entertainment is exported around the world, and then I can go to any country on earth and if I'm wearing an Iron Man t-shirt, people are going to know what's going on.
Saskia Videler
Well, I think there are dominant cultures, the American culture is quite dominant, but also closer to where I am, the Dutch culture is a bit more dominant than, for instance, the Belgian culture.
It has always been, as far as I remember, that we as Dutch people have been looking to America, oh my God, they have such amazing things and we want the things like, oh, Coca-Cola, that's so cool, and American brands, yay! Now when you think of it, it's like, we also have very good products. Why is it we glamorize other cultures or other nations products so much?
David Dylan Thomas
Is America the mean girls of the high school that is the world?!
Saskia Videler
Probably, yes! Is that very surprising to you?
David Dylan Thomas
I mean no, but I was talking to somebody, I was at a conference in Berlin and I got to meet people from Brazil and all these other countries and Italy was another. I remember the person from Brazil, we were talking about the rise of authoritarianism in both of those places and those countries look to America for what to do. And I was like, ‘Why?? Don't do that! I live here. Look the other way, please, do the opposite!’
But yeah, coming from America, my reaction to that is – and I don't mean you personally, but as a country or as a culture, you can't see through us, we are shoddy salesman. We are like snake oil, old timey American elixir, we'll cure everything. To me, I look at that and that is a really poor salesmanship and this is being bought?
Saskia Videler
Yeah, but also you mentioned Starbucks. Starbucks wasn't in Belgium until 10 years ago or so. People are lining up for Starbucks while we've been having pretty decent coffee places. Why is that?
David Dylan Thomas
It's not even the best America has to offer!
Saskia Videler
Yeah, right! It's so fun, even in Seattle, there's so much counterculture, so much counter-coffee places. It's really cool. So, you can find really good coffee as long as you don't go to Starbucks!
David Dylan Thomas
Well, that's the irony too, there's definitely a Marxist dialectic in play where Starbucks starts out as this very tiny thing right here in Seattle that you can only get in Seattle. It sort of hits its stride, gets embraced by the mainstream, goes mainstream, and then becomes the very epitome of the thing that when it started, it was the alternative to.
Saskia Videler
Exactly. So, things get out of hand.
David Dylan Thomas
I'm curious to hear a little more though about that Dutch/Belgian dynamic, I know nothing about that dynamic. If you can kind of illuminate a little, what is that like?
Saskia Videler
So, the Dutch think that the Belgians are very cute. The Belgians think that the Dutch are very loud and arrogant. So, it's not really a two-way love relationship. Also, something that has been on my mind is that when I came to Belgium 16 years ago, there weren't that many Dutch people around me, but now I hear so many Dutch accents around me in Antwerp. I know where they're all coming from, but it’s so many. I wonder what is it going to mean for the mentality of the people in Antwerp? Is that going to change as well? What are the affects of the immigration of Dutch people into Belgium?
David Dylan Thomas
This fascinates me because in America when you have an influx of immigrants, we hate them! And we denigrate them and really what we do is assuming they're not black, we give them the opportunity to assimilate, to become white. They have to do things like vote Republican and shit on other immigrants or especially shit on black people, and be like we will reward you with middle-income or low-income jobs or whatever. There's a whole, whole dynamic there, but I'm curious, I'll be perfectly blunt, I've never witnessed white on white immigration. I've never really witnessed the dynamic. I know nothing. I won't say nothing, I know not as much about European geography, are the Netherlands, and Belgium bordered? So you have people crossing over the border?
Saskia Videler
Yeah, and there aren't actually borders.
David Dylan Thomas
Oh right, because it’s all EU so is it even immigration at that point?
Saskia Videler
Hardly. I do have sort of an immigration status, it’s not literally called that, but I’m like an immigrant in Belgium. We do have a lot of white people immigrating into other European countries. We have a lot of people from Eastern Europe, especially right now, who are also coming to Belgium and going to the Netherlands.
David Dylan Thomas
For context, we're recording this on October 11th, 2022, hopefully by the time this airs, the situation in the Ukraine will be peaceful – kind of doubt it, but yeah, that's the world we're in.
So is there that what I'll call typical – I wouldn't say typical – American tension because this happens all over the world, but the typical tension of, oh, all these immigrants are ruining our society. Is that how people are feeling towards Dutch immigrants or is it kind of a different vibe?
Saskia Videler
I don't notice that so much. That mentality basically only towards non-whites.
David Dylan Thomas
Okay. See, I want to be surprised by that, but I’m not really.
Saskia Videler
I'm sorry.
David Dylan Thomas
No, it's fine. The reason that gives me hope, or at least is really interesting to me is that it models a different way of being around immigrants. So what would be, if it's not the sort of disdain, what flavor of relationship would you say that people have toward those immigrants? Of Dutch immigrants coming into Belgium. How are they being received? If it's not disdain.
Saskia Videler
That's not really a thing. There’s no deal there. But I would like to speak a little bit to how Ukrainian immigrants are being treated, compared to immigrants from other countries that don't have it much better and that is something I had a lot of trouble with, to be honest. I mean, of course we need to give these people shelter, but why aren't we doing the same for two people who come from Syria or from Afghanistan? I love that people are standing up for and making place in their houses. People are opening their houses to Ukrainian refugees, which yes, is great, but why can't we do the same for other refugees? That is just so wrong.
David Dylan Thomas
Yeah, and it is mind boggling to me. If I ever had to – I don't know why I picked this one, but I did pick it – if I ever had to make the argument, if ever aliens come down and like say, ‘We're going to blow you up, but we're going to put you on trial first and we're going to assign one human to be the prosecution, another human to be the defense.’ And if they made me be the prosecution, I would just be like, ‘Hey, look at how we treat refugees who aren't white? The end. I've got other evidence, your Honor, but I'm actually going stop there. I don't think I need to go any further.’
It's one thing to sort of have a blank slate and be like, okay, these are people who don't look like me, who are coming into…take an invasion narrative and say, ‘You are invading my space. I don't know who you are. What are you doing?’
It’s another thing entirely to lump on top of that, ‘Hey, you have been through hell. If you stay where you are, you will literally die and and you have gone through all this trauma and now that you're, here's more trauma.’
Saskia Videler
Yeah, ‘Here’s a spot for you to sleep on the street.’ This is what’s literally happening.
David Dylan Thomas
‘Here's a camp you can be in for literally 20 years.’ And it's like, why! Why can't we be more human? Why do we refuse to see the humanity in other people?
Saskia Videler
And also, I mean by now – and by ‘we, I mean the Dutch and also very much the Belgian people. We do know that we've been major assholes in the past. We’ve done fucking bad stuff to people all over the world. Wouldn't this be just a fabulous opportunity to even try to set the record straight, just a tiny little bit? You have a wonderful opportunity to do something, but no, let's just have people sleep on the streets.
David Dylan Thomas
What it reminds me of is, so recently, obviously, King Charles – It's now King Charles, that still sounds weird – comes into power and what's happening? I don't know if other countries are doing this, but my dad's Ethiopian so I keep up on this stuff. Ethiopia said, ‘Hey, you got some of our shit. Can we have it back please?’ They were doing this long before King Charles got there. But once, now that he's there, we're like, under new management. Maybe this guy will, lend us a break? I tweeted something like, ‘Okay, hey King Charles, great opportunity to show that England doesn't have to keep being a shit ass.’ I know what’s going to happen.
Saskia Videler
Did he respond? Tell me!
David Dylan Thomas
I was going to say, he immediately hand delivered these artifacts to Ethiopia, but yeah, I suspect – I've been reading a lot about history of slavery and one of the holes you dig yourself into when you oppress people, especially when there are more of them than you, is every day you go, not letting them free is one more day for them to be angry at you and you basically build up the hate to be unleashed upon you should you ever decide to let them free. So, it's this vicious cycle of, ‘I really should stop oppressing you, but if I do, you're probably going to kick my ass for all the oppression I've done already. So maybe I need to just keep oppressing you…Yeah…I think I'm going to keep oppressing you. Sorry! You’re freaking me out. I'm going to just keep oppressing you.’
Somehow that perpetuates, even when literally, people that were being oppressed by other people are coming to you for help. They have nothing against you and still you're like, oh, I don't really trust you.
Saskia Videler
I was wondering which bias is this? Loss aversion?
David Dylan Thomas
Actually, that is a very good question, it's irrational though.
Saskia Videler
But there is a fear there. There's a fear of, if I acknowledge this, then it will be real and now have to repent in a material way.
David Dylan Thomas
I think there is some loss aversion, but I think loss aversion is a second level effect where it's like, Hey, these immigrants are going to steal our jobs. I think that's an excuse because again, statistically speaking, immigration is actually great for the economy.
Saskia Videler
Oh yeah, absolutely.
David Dylan Thomas
Statistically speaking, you didn't want to and are not currently doing the jobs that they would “steal” to begin with, so it is a very transparent, facile fiction to cover up what I think is just straight up racism. When I talk about cognitive bias, I'm talking about shortcuts that the mind is taking that lead to error.
So if I say something like loss aversion, it hurts more to lose things than to get things. I'm going to be more convinced by arguments that'll teach me, oh, if you do this thing, you're less likely to lose something. It's much more convincing argument for me.
But when I think about racism, it's hard for me to just boil racism down to a shortcut like stereotyping. Stereotyping is a shortcut because I want to be able to look at you and immediately know how to think about you. If I have in my head that that person is black, therefore I know to stay away from them, they're dangerous and I can immediately understand everything about them, that saves me time. That saves me time trying to actually understand them and all that stuff. I can quickly determine, and in a way, there is a primal need to be able to look at the trees and the grass and immediately know if there's a tiger there or not. It’s simple pattern recognition for survival’s sake.
So, there is some primal root there, but the piece where that starts to disconnect is where we go from just pure bias into just emotions of hatred or disgust. Those are primal too, but they're just different. And I think they're connected. There's connective tissue between that and bias, but to me it is a whole other thing than just purely talking about something like loss aversion or something that. Those are almost enablers.
Saskia Videler
There's more thought behind this.
David Dylan Thomas
Yes, there's more going on. There's something bigger.
Saskia Videler
Yeah. It's more structural.
David Dylan Thomas
It's interesting too, there's a relationship between the structure that is racism and the personal. There's the system, and then there's the personal, and I think they feed off that, that's why, again, there's no logical reason for me to be afraid of a Turkish refugee in Berlin. We’ve got no beef – Germany and Turkey, that I know of. I mean, no more than any European country has. I mean, all European countries kind of got ground to beef at some point.
I'll go even further – colorism. The idea that the whiter someone is, the more trustworthy they are, the more beautiful they are, the more whatever they are, even within groups that are all some shade of brown, there is some fundamental narrative that has been pushed to the point where at the personal level, it is easier to buy into the more structural racism that's been set up to put people down. I'm going to buy into that because, well, even at a personal level, that person who's a little browner than me, I'm not sure they're cool as I am.
Saskia Videler
It's maybe not even necessarily intentionally pushed, but also inherited.
David Dylan Thomas
How do you mean?
Saskia Videler
Because of generations passing on even subliminal messages.
David Dylan Thomas
Yes. Oh yes.
Saskia Videler
A white family walking on the street with little children, a person of color who passes by and them just gripping the hands of the children a little firmer. It could be small things that etch those kinds of thoughts in your mind, I think.
David Dylan Thomas
I think that's absolutely true. As I study bias, as I study structures of inequality and all that stuff, it always comes back to family. Luna Jimenez does a fantastic Cycles of Oppression workshop which I highly recommend you take. She really brings it all back to family is where we first learn oppression, authority. Family is where we are first vulnerable. We cannot do anything without whoever is taking care of us and so we learn to be completely dependent on them and how they treat authority is hugely influential on us. We learn lessons very quickly on what it means to survive and thrive – or not thrive – and we carry that into our adult lives in very big ways.
Saskia Videler
Yes. And if we do want to break out of those patterns, that takes a lot of intention and a lot of work. I think still, even if you have all that intention and you've done all that work, it's still possible that you’ll pass it on to your children just through minor things.
David Dylan Thomas
Yes. I'll be honest, I haven't read this yet, but I really want to is, The Body Keeps the Score. Generational trauma is a thing. Your genes will carry that stuff on without you intending it. I was talking to someone today who’s a new mom. We were talking about how, when I had a kid, I gained a new appreciation of just how much was passed on genetically. So, my kid has these mannerisms that his aunt- my sister, has that I know growing up he hadn't seen. We didn't have a lot of family visits because we lived far apart. So he might have maybe seen her once, but it wasn't a matter of him habitually seeing my sister have this mannerism and then he picked it up. He had to get that from genes.
It was like, wow, it ain't just eye color, it ain't just hair color, it ain't just, you know, a kink in your hair or whatever. There is all this other stuff that even in your best intentions, I mean, that's why I think we need each other because there is no perfect unbiased mechanism. We can work on ourselves and we should work on ourselves, but we're going to get tired. We're going to get frustrated and stuff's just going to happen and stuff's just going to slip out. We need each other to keep each other in check. I'm a big believer in interdependence for that very reason because on our own we are weak. I don't say that as a mean thing. I just say that as a true thing, a human being is a fragile thing.
Saskia Videler
We also need each other's perspectives so much. It's probably also what you mean, right? I only have my two eyes to observe the world, but you have another pair of eyes.
It's so interesting to listen to, Okay, so what is it for you? How is it for you to move through the world? What have you've been through and what are you experiencing? I think we should have more of those conversations.
David Dylan Thomas
I love learning. There was a woman who was talking about this, I forget where I learned this, but the sort of habitual, if you're a woman, you are probably familiar with the habit of checking the back of your car before you get in the car. For me, it was this very rapid succession of, ‘Wait, really? Holy crap. Oh, of course. That makes absolute sense. Holy crap.’
That's a thing I don't have to do, but that is a lived experience. I could have gone through my whole life never learning if I don't allow myself and give myself access to other points of view. So that is very much yet another reason we need each other to, because we are so limited. And again, even with the best of intentions, I could have never learned that.
What you said about intentional, it has to be intentional, I think that's key too, because the systems we have for just living our daily lives don't lend themselves. There's no moment of the day where you know some religions have time for morning prayers. It's time for this, it's time for that. There's nothing in American society that's like, okay, time for introspection, let's everyone take five minutes and think about what you've done today, why you did it. Is there something else you could have done? What assumptions are you making? You have to make your own time for that shit, right?
Saskia Videler
I'm also thinking about officially I think we both live in a world without official segregation, but unofficially, it's still very much a thing, not only between races, but also between genders and also age groups.
David Dylan Thomas
I would say number one, first and foremost, between classes.
Saskia Videler
Yes. Absolutely.
David Dylan Thomas
When's the last time you sat down and had a coffee with someone who's experiencing homelessness? When's the last time you got on an elevator with someone who makes 1/10th as much as you did? I think that is the hardest form of diversity to overcome. In design for example, and the irony is maybe you should hire that person if you actually want that representation. The second you hire them; you are now actually making them part of your class.
But, not to be too facetious, you are bringing someone who has had a completely different lived experience than you, potentially, so that I think is sort of worth of that trade off. But yeah, you are absolutely right. All of that segregation still exists, all of that segregation is still encouraged.
Saskia Videler
Yes, I think what is really great, every time you get a privilege check. I'm just thinking about my last couple of days here in Seattle, I bought a data roaming package and it's not working. So, I am doing a lot of exploring through Seattle without being able to use the internet. It’s fun and I get by, but it's not always easy. I am not at all complaining of course, but it is a little bit of a privilege check. If people don't have a smartphone and they have to do something, how would they have to do it? And I know sometimes get close to such an experience, I do not know where the bus stop is. I do not know how to buy a ticket. How would someone who does not have these tools on the daily, how do they go through life? Again, such a minor thing but it’s kind of good that sometimes you do get a privilege check.
David Dylan Thomas
Just before this podcast I had to go and buy a new mic cord and my phone was dying. I was like, if I get to where I need to go to buy this thing, how do I get back if my phone dies? Because I'm in a part of town. I don't even know if taxis come out there because it's not downtown. What I quickly realized, and again, I don't know where the bus stops are, I quickly realized I am now dependent on other people.
Saskia Videler
Yes. You're so vulnerable. Your armor of technology is suddenly gone and it’s a little bit of an eye-opening experience.
David Dylan Thomas
It’s interesting to think about that. Are you familiar with the jobs-to-be-done methodology?
Saskia Videler
Yes.
David Dylan Thomas
For those listening, jobs-to-be-done is a methodology that says basically, when I buy a drill, chances are, and this is true, chances are that drill is only going to be used for 10 minutes in the entire lifetime of that drill, because I didn't want the drill. I wanted the hole. I'm hiring the drill to give me a hole.
So, when you're doing UX research in this field, there's a lot of like, well, what are you hiring this service or that service to do? I realize one of the things we're hiring technology to do is to make us not need other people. When I have the choice to use Uber instead of get on a bus or ask a friend for a ride or whatever, I have made a choice to not need to rely on other people. Even the Uber driver is reduced to a dot on my phone at that point and I can go whenever I want. So, there's an “independence”, but what it really is kind of is I don't want to actually have to deal with another human or be open to another human so let me buy my way into this godhood of just like, I can do whatever I want, whenever I want and it doesn't matter what other people want.
Saskia Videler
Yeah, and isn't that such a shame? I'm sure that you also traveled on your way back and when you did have to talk to other people and it was a different experience again and also, I like to pay attention when I walk through a city at how many people are actually looking at the city compare compared to looking at their phones. Sometimes I get a bit nostalgic or sad about that. Or when they're waiting at a bus stop and everybody's just looking at their phones. You don't need to talk to each other, but you could also look at that nice tree over there.
David Dylan Thomas
There’s definitely like a presence thing going on too. I love looking at animals, I love going to the zoo or nature parks or whatever. One thing you notice, we were at Disney Animal Kingdom and the funny thing about the Disney Animal Kingdom Hotel is that they have literal giraffes just walking around.
Saskia Videler
In the hotel?
David Dylan Thomas
Not physically inside the hotel – that would be really fun, but the grounds. One of my favorite memories of that whole trip was sitting on my balcony reading a book and being able to look up and like, oh, there's a giraffe. It's kind of nice, but you watch these animals, sometimes they're eating, and sometimes they're just standing there, just living. They're not doing anything. I realized if I was on a train sitting next to someone and all they were doing is just sitting there staring straight ahead, I'd be freaked out. What is wrong? Is he on a call? No? He needs to be doing something. Why isn't he doing anything?
Saskia Videler
Like, are you bored? I should help this person, they look bored.
David Dylan Thomas
Exactly. Are they having an attack? We've gotten to the point where just sitting still is creepy to us. What is up with that?
Saskia Videler
I wonder where we could go, where we could travel, if there are any countries where that is less of a thing?
David Dylan Thomas
I mean, very stereotypically I think of places that are a little more remote, that are a little more zen, for lack of a better word, where it is just about, okay, I'm, I've done all I'm going to do today. I'm just going to kick back now. Places that smoke a lot of weed, that's what I'm saying!
Saskia Videler
No, there are also countries where things like mindfulness in some sort of form or that can also be a form of religion that imply those kinds of behaviors. It sounds very denigrating.
David Dylan Thomas
‘You’re just sitting there, weird! What’s up with you?’
Saskia Videler
Let's also talk a little bit about language because that's also something that is very fascinating to me in this topic of how countries influence each other. Something that also is very interesting to me is how English has a major impact on other languages. Someone pointed out to me at some point, oh, you're using a lot of English in your Dutch speaking, so English words seeping in. I was like, do I? You kind of pick up professional terms, for instance. I didn't bother to find an alternative in Dutch. What I really actually about my current job in the city of Antwerp is that there is really a culture of, Hey, we actually can think of a Dutch word for that, or there is a Dutch word for that. Let's just use that and not conveniently revert to English, because what actually, because it's cool or convenient? I don't know.
That was a bit of a mind twister for me, but I actually really respect it now and I realize we do really have a pretty rich language and we should appreciate it more, appreciate our own language more. Also, in pop culture and especially in music, I noticed that there is a lot more Dutch spoken music now, which is actually really great. It also has its own style and, and I'm hoping that is also for a lot of other countries. I know French music has always been a lot bigger because the French are much prouder of their language.
So yeah, dominant countries, languages seeping into other languages is interesting to me and how that is being perceived. So what is your take on that?
David Dylan Thomas
I feel very weird about it. So, the first time I really, truly appreciated and it made me a little uncomfortable, was when I went to go to UX Copenhagen. So, for a little, just a very brief backstory here. One of the reasons that, Saskia is one of my favorite people is, she is not even indirectly responsible for me having my book deal and all of these things, because I was on her podcast, a way back and the person who runs UX Copenhagen heard me on that podcast and invited me to come speak, and it was my first international gig. That talk that I ended up writing for that conference ended up being the core – it was literally called Design for Cognitive Bias. That's the first time I used that title. So, thank you again, Saskia for being an awesome friend.
Saskia Videler
I'm really quite sure that it would've happened, but I am glad I played a tiny role in that process.
David Dylan Thomas
Forever grateful. The thing about UX Copenhagen that really struck me, a few talks in, was that I am in a country that is a foreign country as far as I know, English is not the primary language of this country, and people are coming to this conference from all over the world, but the language that every single person is speaking on stage is English.
In a weird way, my first reaction was like, ’You don't have to do that for me, you guys, you're crazy! You speak whatever you want. I can just turn that switch. You don't have to...’ But I felt cultural hedge money and it's true. I was benefiting from the British deciding to take over the world. If there is ever any doubt that the British Empire literally took over the world, we talk about villains in movies being like, ‘I'm going to take over the world.’ And it's always this solely, no one's going to do that. And it's like, yeah, the British did it quite some time ago.
There's a map that shows you all the places the British didn't conquer and you have to hunt. Here's this little tiny island near Vanuatu. I don't think they got that one.
Saskia Videler
The Dutch probably got that one!
David Dylan Thomas
Exactly! There's a statistic that four out of every five conversations in English today are between non-native speakers and like, that's it. Game over. English one. On the one hand that's terrible because that’s a lasting scar. It happened not because English was so fucking great, it happened because it was forced upon people, because people were forced to unlearn their language and stop speaking their language.
I mean, it's a related thing, but I found out in a book I read recently – I’m going to promote it now because by the time this comes out it'll probably already be on the shelf, but Sheryl Cababa has a book coming out, probably out by this time, about systems design. She brings up the story of how, in the Philippines, Spanish conquerors were given a book full of Spanish names that they were supposed to give to people. Which is just a weird fucking job to begin with. But when you understand how English became the dominant language, you're like, I really wish it hadn't. I benefit from that greatly. There's almost nowhere I can go in the world where I won't be able to sort of get by, but I don't feel good about that.
If I the button to press to be like, okay, you're going to have to learn more languages now, but millions of people aren't going to have to sacrifice their cultures…okay, fine, I'll learn French, I'll learn Spanish, I'll learn Tagalog, fine.
Saskia Videler
In that sense, Esperanto wasn't such a bad idea I guess? But it didn’t really take off.
David Dylan Thomas
Here's the thing. I also think about language differently now. If I could go back to college, I might become a linguistics major because I find it fascinating. Different languages are different ways of solving the same problems. So as an example, there are languages that have a softer or harder sense of the future tense. So, English has a fairly hard future tense, which is to say if I'm going to tell you that I'm going to go to the store on Tuesday, I say ‘I will go to the store on Tuesday.’ It is a projection, something's happening later on. If I want to tell you that in a language like Chinese, that has a sort of a softer future tense. The transliteration is more like, ‘On Tuesday, I am at the store.’ I am relating much more presently with my future self.
There is a bias called hyperbolic discounting, which is a fancy way of saying I am bad about thinking about my future self. If I see a piece of chocolate cake, I will think about how that will make present Dave happy, I will not think about what it will do to future Daves blood sugar. This is why it's hard to invest, this is why it's hard to stick to an exercise regimen because the rewards come later.
Languages that have a softer future tense are better at that shit. People who speak languages like Chinese smoke less, do a better job at investing for their future. Language matters. Language affects thought. This is why I don't want there to be one dominant language because then you were omitting other ways of solving those problems. If English was literally the only language spoken on earth, we would have a lot more smokers.
Saskia Videler
That is so interesting. I never knew that, Dave! That's so cool – or not cool, sorry! Not cool.
David Dylan Thomas
It's an opportunity. It's a sort of way of saying, Hey, maybe stop wiping out languages, maybe preserve some of the languages we've got because there are literally things we can't perceive if we don't have a word for it.
I think there's so much untapped potential there and it is sad that we wiped out so much of that in the interest of colonialism, of globalization
Saskia Videler
I just told you my personal experience and after looking at more like America and the UK it’s like, wow, it's so great, and then coming back to like, actually we also have a great culture and there's also great music and even great movies. If it's a pendulum for other people as well and for cultures at large that they come back from that. I wonder.
David Dylan Thomas
I think what's happening now, and it's been happening for a while, because what I'm reminded of is black culture in America. It's interesting because in some ways black culture is the dominant culture on earth. What I mean by that is hip hop. Hip hop took over the world. There's not a country on this planet you can go to where you don't have some form of hip hop. I love going to other countries and hearing their hip hop. When I was in Germany, I would go into a coffee shop and I'd hear some German rapper and I'd be like, this is awesome!
Saskia Videler
And you can distinguish between the styles? Would you be able to?
David Dylan Thomas
If I listen to enough, because I can tell, and again, even within a country, but I've listened to some French rap and I'm like, okay, there's certain patterns I'm noticing here between these different French raps or certain things they're doubling down on that other rappers aren't, and certain stylistic choices. But even if I don't literally understand what they're saying. French is fast enough as it is. Once you start rapping, forget it. It's never going to happen!
At the same time though, black people have been trained to hate themselves. Going back to slavery, we were trained that what we were was evil, not worth saving and the only way to save us was to work for nothing. We've carried that and to your point about being intentional. As people, we need to be intentional about saying we are great. We are proud. That's part of the reason a movie like Black Panther was such a big fucking deal is because it was unapologetically black.
Saskia Videler
It's reclaiming your pride. Reclaiming what you are and standing for it.
David Dylan Thomas
If you can imagine a Dutch Black Panther, or a Belgian Black Panther, that's a sort of saying, Hey, we got something great. And what was so subversive about Afrofuturism, about blackness at that level, about that movie, the most subversive notion in that film is that the primary conflict in the movie is should we overcome the world with blackness peacefully or forcefully? That is the actual conflict at the center of the movie. It isn't, Hey, are we awesome? It's like no, no, no. We're beginning with the fundamental assumption in the movie is we are awesome. The rolling question is, should we keep that to ourselves, or should we let it out? If we let it out, should we force it on people? Or should we just peacefully share our awesomeness?
Saskia Videler
Should we be white about it?
David Dylan Thomas
Exactly! Actually, no joking. I mean literally the character of Killmonger is like, this is what I learned from white people, so this is how I'm going to expose our blackness to the rest of the world. This is what I've learned from white people, so that's how I'm going to do it. You are absolutely correct. But that there's an audaciousness to starting from a position of black is great, in fact, black is actually greater. It's the greatest force on the planet. That is what is so subversive about the notion of Wakanda isn't that Wakanda is awesome. It's actually that Wakanda is the awesomest. If you hadn't colonized, this is what you get is the best country on the planet.
That to me is what is so bold there and why it was such a big deal. I was telling my friends; I'm visiting some friends in Atlanta and it happens to be timed with the opening of the second Black Panther movie. I'm like, ‘guys’ – it is literally all guys – ‘Guys, I love you. I haven't seen you in a while, but that night, this isn't just a movie for me. I have to go. Never mind that I'm going to be in one of the blackest cities in America. I have to go see Black Panther two. You're welcome to join me.’ And they actually are all coming with me. I have to be there for this on that evening.
I love the idea of people finding their ancestors and the good and the bad of their ancestors.
Saskia Videler
The full spectrum of it. I love the way that Wakanda is being portrayed. Don't you think it's just a good example of how white people are just so afraid? They're just so afraid of not being the greatest anymore.
I mean, they aren't, but that perception of being the greatest, to lose that because that has been the perception of white folks, white cultures for centuries. We were talking earlier, it's in your genes and I can kind of understand that that is not easy to just give up and say, ‘Oh yeah, I watched this movie and I understand.’
David Dylan Thomas
Yeah, I'll try to come at it from a different angle of oppression. I am a dude, dudes in general for 40,000 years have been the oppressor and have had the advantage and have had been able to live in the illusion of being the greatest, right?
Saskia Videler
Debatable.
David Dylan Thomas
Oh yeah?
Saskia Videler
Of course. I mean, women have had an important role and were more respected before the industrial industrialization of the world.
David Dylan Thomas
Oh, say more.
Saskia Videler
We had more of a collaborative society and now I am speaking for what we would call the western northern hemisphere world, because I know in there are parts in the world where this timeline is a little bit different, but, women have, before industrialization, been more respected in their communities as people who were able to build those communities. Trade was a totally different thing. It was more bartering and trading in the natural sense of the word and not a monetary transaction.
David Dylan Thomas
We weren't doing private equity around then.
Saskia Videler
Yes, exactly. That's a very dude thing! Women would never do that! But, yeah, just the cliches about women, that they're more caring, more careful about being more intentional in their community efforts. That was actually quite true in the past. So, it's not quite true that dudes have always been the dominant people. There’s even some research, I'm not sure if it's the Neanderthal people or a little bit after that, that women also went hunting.
It's been ingrained in our history books, that's where it starts, that women are the weaker sex, that we just have weaker bodies, so men are more important and stronger and to be respected more.
David Dylan Thomas
So how do we get back to that pre-industrial dudes aren’t being oppressors society?
Saskia Videler
I've been thinking about that a lot also. Maybe it can roll into the next podcast? How do we de-gender our society or something? I would really love that because I think it might be the answer to capitalism.
David Dylan Thomas
So that actually is interesting.
Saskia Videler
Or an answer to capitalism?
David Dylan Thomas
It’s funny that it always comes back to capitalism. There’s a threat there because I can point to multiple industries where as soon as that industry started making money, women were given a less prominent role. Screenwriting, computing – those are both industries where women were basically pushed out the second those industries started making money.
Saskia Videler
That's a good example. Women basically started the age of computing. There were women computers….
David Dylan Thomas
…literally called computers.
Saskia Videler
Literally called computers who were instrumental to NASA's effort. This is what always happens.
David Dylan Thomas
We could go on length for ages and I hope that we will. I think this is a good stop point for this evening though.
Thank you so much, Saskia. Is there anything you are currently promoting or want to let people know where to get in touch with you or anything like that?
Saskia Videler
I don't have anything to promote. They can get in touch with me through Twitter. Do get in touch with me on Twitter. My handle is @Saskiavideler.
David Dylan Thomas
Thank you so much and thank you all for listening for, ‘Lately, I've been thinking about…’ This is David Dylan Thomas and we'll catch you next time.
Saskia Videler
Thank you so much for having me.