S4E9: Crafting a Great Resume with Sherman Chen

When looking for a job:

• know yourself
• anticipate what you want to grow into

It's a challenging job market because:

• domino-effect of layoffs
• it's crowded; it will be a long process and you need to be persistent

Writing a great resume

• Think of Tinder: you don't have a recruiter or hiring manager's time for long
  • how you market yourself leads to those first impressions
• Common mistakes
  • don't make others have to sift through your resume
  • think of how we read (top to bottom, left to right) and position important details accordingly
  • layout is important, being first bullet point with important stuff
  • think of accomplishment - problem - how you solved it
• One page resume
  • early career should be a page; mid career can be 2
• Have a master resume
  • that way you ruthlessly edit to a new version for each job you're tailoring it to
• Cover letter
  • it's very important
  • it complements your resume in a narrative way that bullet points can't
• Employment gaps
  • just address the elephant in the room in one sentence
  • don't make it the focal point
  • most employers understand
• AI
  • it's a great tool for efficiency
  • but know that it can hallucinate
  • you are the driver

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As a dynamic and innovative IT leader with 15+ years of experience, Sherman Chen is passionate about driving technology transformations that empower organizations to achieve their strategic objectives. With a proven track record of successfully leading 100+ projects, he has a keen ability to bridge the gap between business and technology, delivering solutions that not only meet but exceed expectations.

Throughout his career, he's had the privilege of working with companies like AT&T and Children's Hospital Los Angeles, where he played a pivotal part in implementing innovative technology solutions, driving efficiency and effectiveness while transforming the way they do business.

Beyond his technical prowess, Sherman takes great pride in his mentorship skills, nurturing talent and fostering a culture of growth within the teams he leads. As he continues his journey, he's eager to tackle new challenges and explore opportunities that allow him to leverage his experience and drive meaningful change.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sherman-chen/
Email: swc2010@stern.nyu.edu 

Leadership Voyage
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music: by Napoleon (napbak)
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Transcript

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wherever you are on your leadership voyage it starts here[Music] Hey everybody welcome again to Leadership Voyage the podcast dedicated to your pursuit of becoming a great leader My name is Jason Wick your host Feel free to reach out to me anytime at startyouvoyage@gmail.com that is startyouvoyaggmail.com Uh let's see Today's episode is I I'm really like this episode and I'll tell you why It is something that I wasn't sure if I wanted to do it and I'll walk you through the process Let's start with the end Today's episode is about writing your resume I mean it's about looking for a job more generally but it's about writing your resume And as I've shared earlier uh I was laid off back in December and um that got me more interested in what's going on with the job market and the job application process Uh of course because I've been going through that but um you know being laid off inspired me to start my own business and all these other things But the point of this is uh I wasn't really sure how deep to get into the topic of applying for jobs because number one it was something that was affecting me I wasn't sure how much listeners would be interested But the reason it's the most interesting to me overall is is actually because I wasn't sure if it was in the spirit of the show I wasn't sure if the process of finding a job was aligned with the mission of helping people improve their leadership skills wherever they're at And our guest today Sherman Chen is someone who I have known through social media off and on for I think it's probably three years uh we we don't didn't know each other personally but we we met through social media through uh just interactions and we got to chatting and I asked him if he would be interested in coming on this show for this topic because he's been mentoring others and working with others on their resumes And it made me realize that it's it's worth doing this episode because number one finding the right job opportunity is like the ultimate professional leading yourself It's the ultimate professional version of leading yourself It's it's a tough process Or maybe you start your own thing I mean where where is there more courage professionally perhaps than something like that Starting your own thing and actually going for it when you're afraid Although that sounds a little egocentric now that I realize I'm saying that out loud since that's what I did But what I what my point is is it's easy for us to be afraid to try something new And a layoff or looking for a new job is an opportunity to redefine who you are to know yourself to try to align what you're best at with what you're going to do next And that's leadership with yourself And in this episode with Sherman that's actually where we start the discussion off is if you want to write a good resume you need to know yourself And I think that's a really cool angle I don't know that I've ever thought of it that way before So if you're not interested at all in the job application process or writing a resume although I do know that 51% of you who have jobs are looking anyway if you're not interested that's fine You can skip this episode and come back for the next one right Totally fine But if you manage others you might get a little insight into what they're looking for and why they might be looking elsewhere Or if you're looking for a job yourself this will be full of pragmatic uh advice that you can use Just take a couple pieces if you're looking for jobs either after a layoff or while you still are employed currently This interview is full of practical advice that you can take with you and that's what I'm excited about So I'm glad we did this episode Uh this was way too long of an opening so I apologize for that but I wanted to explain the thought process of not being sure whether or not we should do this topic but ultimately glad that we did it Everybody get ready for a really uh insightful episode uh with Sherman Chen[Music] All right everybody Thanks again for joining us for another episode of Leadership Voyage And I am very happy to be joined by Sherman Chen out in Irvine California How are you doing today Sherman Good good It's a little early in the morning so if I saw the dozing off uh you know what happened If you start dozing off that's my fault without a doubt because that means there aren't very good questions But yes I was going to thank you as well It's uh it's I'm in mountain time you're in Pacific time and thanks for getting up early with us today and and sharing your expertise on a very important topic uh we're going to talk about the process of looking for a job and kind of specifically focusing on résumés which I think a lot of folks will find important because even those who are in the who still are employed right now about half of us half of them are looking for jobs too So I think this will be helpful for everybody Now before we get down to business uh you and I met a couple of months ago and it came to light that you are a big Star Wars fan I think you had a big uh Lego uh set in the distance in that in that room that we were talking Um do you have any good Disney Plus recommendations for the folks out there Actually I mean you know like I mean one of the things that I really enjoyed watching um the last few weeks was a documentary on Disney Plus about uh industrial light and magic Yeah you know they have the first season which is mostly concentrated on Star Wars and then about how they branched off into um other movies and stuff like that And then the second season is they just dropped it a few weeks ago which is kind of like it's still more about Star Wars but has you know also talked about some of the other special effects that they're doing and because things are moving into the computer space um you know it's just kind of opened up something extremely interesting and I've always interested in figuring out how things works so I find it very enjoyable and at one point they're talking about how they did the um special effects for Twister how to do the tornado and it's all mathematical It's mathematical models and then they they utter something about a foyer transform and I go wait a minute I know that makes you feel smart right Oh yeah Oh yeah of course I mean like you know that's that's that's kind of one of the occupational hazards as a as a as a math major and a computer science major and a business major you know you get sucked into these kind of things you know and then all of a sudden your professional mind just turns on and starts figuring out things out and you can't go I shouldn't be doing that I'm supposed to be enjoying this thing Right Right Tough to uh tough to stop the wheels from turning I Yeah it's funny you bring that example up I have not watched the ILM show but thanks for that recommendation Um I worked way back in the day I worked at Lucas Film and the some of the ILM folks were in the building right next door And it's funny you mentioned the not being able to turn things off because for me I was a music major professional musician and so on a composer And so for me it took many years to untrain myself to just enjoy the score in a movie as opposed to continually analyzing what I was hearing in a movie So I can relate to what you were saying Um thanks for that recommendation That's wonderful I was going to say you know you're a guy with a lot of experience a strong uh academic background as you said uh math and business major You went to NYU and you're also feeling the pull the draw You know from what I understand mentorship is an important thing to you And I think that's what we're going to get into a little bit here is how you've been helping people in your network with their resumes and with their job search more generally too Right So let's let's jump into the mindset of someone who is currently looking for a new opportunity and just kind of more strategically Okay let's help somebody get inside their own mind Like in terms of fit when it comes to someone trying to figure out what they're looking for in their next opportunity what are some of the things that they should be considering first Well I think I think the most important things that they should consider is how well do they know about themselves I mean I think that's that's extremely important If you if you don't know yourself well enough it's really hard to then decipher what kind of company you want to work for what kind of positions you want to look for and grow into Um you know and and and I think that is really the the key when when you're doing the job search I mean like for for me I mean like I have worked for large organizations I've worked for startups I've worked for small organizations you know and I find myself liking the the startup in the small organizations much more than I do the large organizations partly because large organizations has a lot of bureaucracy I got bored Um smaller company startup they're more chaotic but decision got make I can make the decisions I don't have to you know get approval from 20 other people before I can do something Um so I think that's that's really important you know and then the next things you you know somebody should be looking for is really not just what you're looking for right now is also what what you can grow into I mean what is the possibility of you moving into another role later on once you once you landed that that positions you know and and I think that's that the size of the company the culture of the company they are all they all kind of play into this because I mean I like to tell people that you know like like getting a job is kind of like getting married you know you you you know you have to like the company that you work for you have to like the people that you work for you know otherwise why are you doing this I mean you know like money is is a factor but it shouldn't be the all-consuming factor You can't keep telling yourself that you know they're paying me you know half a million dollars to do this job and I hated this company and I hated the people I work for Yeah those are I mean that's good advice I first you know starting at first from knowing yourself what your tendencies and preferences are And then I I kind of like that comparison to to a marriage Not only um not only the you got to like the the person you got to like where you're working the people you're working with but it's also interesting because things evolve and change right And where are you going next I love that angle to think through So thanks for bringing that up I mean like we said you're you're thinking about helping well you have been helping other folks with their job searches Um trying to help folks get inside the mindset of like what's their strategy for looking for work Uh when it comes to the landscape we're facing right now by the time this episode airs it'll be June or July of 2025 when we're talking about that time period you know here what what is so challenging right now for folks when they're looking for work Um there's a couple of things I mean you know like you know every industry kind of kind of work the same way you know when when one company start to lay off people then the other company have to join the bandwagon and says oh my god I better start laying off people too because I want to be you know in the in group you know and it doesn't really matter whether where they really needed to lay off people or not but truth be told most company you know should lose a few pounds um in that sense I mean you you're going to be in a in a very crowded place you know especially with a lot of these government layoffs also I mean you not only are you competing with with other people from uh companies in the same industry You're now competing with with a lot more people and and you have to understand that it's going to be a long drawn process I mean you know it's not like the old days where you can find a job in two weeks or in a month I mean you know I I've known people who have been out for six months I've been I've known people who have been out for a year Um it's you know so you just have to have have the persistencies to just keep going at it but not in a way that is a it's a allconsuming kind of thing You know it's it's something that you you need a couple you know you spend a couple hours doing it and you walk away you do other things and and I think that's that's kind of the the climates that you're looking at I mean you like even even the in the June July time frame Yeah um you you know so so I think that is really the number one challenge you know and just don't be discouraged about it yeah that's good advice again um yeah I definitely know many folks who've been looking for several quarters as you as you say right they've been looking for a long time and knowing what you're in for there's a lot to be said for that um and the dominoes the domino effect of companies laying off and then others feeling they need to to to make the markets uh perceive them a certain way as you're pointing out Very interesting factors to consider as well But I love the advice Try not to be discouraged Put a couple of high impact hours in at a time Walk away Uh really good advice for folks for navigating the climate we're in Um so those couple first couple questions they kind of you know give us this uh kind of the context that we're talking about Uh so many folks uh facing uh layoffs in these last couple of years particularly in in tech you know in IT the the realms that you and I have worked in We also have uh many folks who are currently employed continuing to look for other work And what we're going to focus in on today is uh kind of the specifics of résumés And I appreciate you uh getting into this topic with us because the resume is that first impression right It's the speed dating of every company's first glimpse at you And I think it's worth taking the time to really go through some questions So Sherman as you and I prepared for this uh we decided we would do what we're kind of calling a rapid fire And for everyone listening not a rapid fire like I ask the question and then Sherman gives a uh you know 10-second answer but our goal is to get through as many meaningful questions as we can in the time that we have so that people can have actionable improvements for their resumes and give them hopefully odds in their favor So here we go We're talking about what it takes to write a great resume And I'm going to just start hammering away Sherman and you enlighten us the best that you can So here we go How much time do we have for a recruiter or hiring manager to look at our resume Well I mean you know and the simplest way to to tell it is think of us as you know using the Tinder app you know you spiked up left and you spiked right I mean that's really how much time your resume is in front of the of the recruiter or the hiring manager for the for the very first time You know they're looking for certain things you know like and if they don't see it then you can be in the rejection pile If they see it then they'll say "Okay I I'll I'll study it some more." Um because this is definitely somebody that I I think I want to talk to Not so much I want to talk to but I think I want to talk to um you know and and and because of that you you have to be very strategic in terms of how you position your resume I mean you know at the end of the day I mean you know somebody who who has an MBA from NYU I mean you know it's kind of like doing the marketing campaign you know you have to position everything correctly um you have to be to the point you have to grasp you know it's kind of like reading a a mystery novel you know if it takes just a page just just to get to that first murder you going to lose everybody Yep that's really is the key is is is how do you how do you do it so that so that they pick the first impressions is yes rather than no Yeah Okay And if they and we'll we'll get into this a little bit later but uh if if they do like the first impression how long as you put it um I might want to talk to you right You you make the I might want to talk to you pile Tell me more I'm interested I'm going to look with more depth and more detail at the resume How much time do you think uh we have at that phase How long are they reviewing the resume And you're probably looking at about 5 to 10 minutes more so on the 5 minute side than on the 10-minute side because they're still in that decision-m process And right now is where if I were hiring I would start checking off boxes You know I have I have my wish list which I put on the job posting and here's a list of things that I that I want to make sure that the person is is capable of doing you know and then I could separate the the the two piles from I wish or I I might interview this person to let's put this person on the interview list Let's let's do initial uh call or initial interviews Yeah So let's go back over this So love the uh comparisons to Tinder or a mystery novel We don't want to wait till page 50 for the murder Swipe left swipe right So there's a marketing camp There's a marketing challenge as you're saying to get those first impressions right Very important And then if you pass that initial challenge maybe we get five minutes or so um where hopefully we're starting to check off the boxes of the recruiter hiring manager whoever is involved at that point with our resume Really interesting uh to kind of think through So let's put a box around that Um so I want to uh you know I want to get somebody's attention and once I have their attention I want to hold it for those few minutes and get them to read and want to talk to me Put me in that um uh initial screening pile as you're saying So what do you think is the most common or some of the most common mistakes that people are making along this journey I mean I think I think the most most things that I've saw is people just throw a bunch of stuff into their resume You know I don't have the time as a hiring manager to to sort through your resume trying to find the nuggets You know it's a little bit like I'm sorry you have to be blatantly obvious to me that you are the person that I should hire Um you know and and I think that's that's really the number one thing that I've seen The second things that I've seen that is also um you know kind of I guess not not very good is is um is not knowing how to positions um your accomplishments within your resume I mean you know because as I've been telling people you know we we read from top to bottom left to right you know it's a little bit of you don't want to hide your accomplishments on the last sentence of the third bullet point You know I may not have gotten that far and I said forget it Yeah this person is out I just I just missed a great person But but you know so so there's a bit of an organization skills that you have to you have to use and you have to think really strategically you know you know not as you as the applicants but but but think about you as the hiring manager if I'm reading this resume you know how what do I needed to do to get that first impressions right and and and you have to think about your word choices you have to think about where in that resume should this one item be positioned you know and and as I was telling people some of the stuff I mean they're interesting but but you know it's you want to grab them I mean you know you're kind of going back to the Star Wars metaphor I mean if you watch you know episode 4 it doesn't start in the beginning I mean the movies start in the middle of a chase and you have to kind of have that kind of impressions when you create that resume You know you want the person who looked at it to keep reading it until they finished Yeah know instead of read the first couple of things and go I don't know about this you know now this person So I love it And there's a lot to think about there And and you've I think you've said it more than once here You know as you're you're crafting the resume you've got to be strategic And I love a couple of the things you're saying here is don't well really really you're saying put yourself in the shoes of someone else who is looking through many resumes and don't make them work hard to find the most important things that in I think in your mind ideally align essentially with your marketing strategy about what is most impactful and important about you as the person applying Then these other details that you're bringing up that are interesting reading left to right top to bottom Um it almost brings kind of this user experience element to looking at a resume Where's the eye tracking going and things like this right And so what that's led me to want to ask you now is sounds great Let's empathize with our hiring manager or talent uh acquisition person Let's be aware of all that but how the heck is the applicant supposed to know the the format that they're seeing the resume in I mean there there's a couple ways you can do it I mean like you know one one way to do it is cheats You know LinkedIn has millions of resume You know they call it a profile but it's really your resume Take a look at how other people does it Um the other things that that I like to do and and I like to tell people to do is really to to put your accomplishment first I mean like and you have to put it like the very beginning of a bullet point if you're using bullet points you know it's I mean I would definitely read more if you know let's say I I work for a company and the company is is in the middle of a transformations and um I saw somebody who can um let's say uh reduce time to market by 50% That's the first things that they write I would definitely be more inclined to read about this person's resume than if you buried it in the in the last line of that bullet point even though the bullet point could be be just one line I mean you know it just doesn't grasp you like boom here it is you know this this is what I've done Um you know and and I think that's that's really is is is the key there And the other things you you have to remember is that the resume is there to do two things One of them is to is to support that position you're applying for You know it's a constant reinforcement of that You know what This is why I'm I'm good for for this position And the other thing is it's a constant reinforcement of who you are I mean you know like if you're if you're an awesome problem solver you can brag about it being a awesome problem solver Show it you know and if you can't do that then you're not an awesome problem solver Think of something else I love it Okay that's good That's the line right there That's the best line so far Um really good stuff I mean even down to the details uh going back two steps from what you just said not the last part which is which is great this narrative I think is what you're saying right This narrative of who I am as the applicant and essentially how that fits or serves the job specifically that that they're applying for Um but what I I love is you've got some details here and it makes me wonder how many folks are truly thinking about it They might get a resume review and it might say quantify your accomplishment Right Okay So now you've got three bullet points and they've quantified their accomplishment But they might have said bullet point one uh managed five people Bullet point two yada yada yada bullet point three uh proudly did of whatever reduced time to market to 50% And if I'm hearing you right your point is bullet point one those first three or four words basically need to get me to say 50% uh time to market reduction right Don't make me work hard put them front and center Am I hearing that right Right That that is absolutely correct Yeah And and and and you know like and everybody love numbers and everybody love um people who can solve problems So I mean you know like so your bullet point could be structured in a way that is like a mini story that you're telling You know this is this is my accomplishment This is what the problem is This is how I solve it And if you can do that I mean I'll be more inclined to read read your resume because oh you're telling me a lot of things but you're not telling me enough things that that I can figure out myself you know because at the end of the day I mean you know like there's that thing that undercurrent things that that the the ultimate objective of a resume is so that you can talk to somebody Yeah you know you have to tease them You have to you have to kind of give them just enough information to say I want to find out more I want that sequel you know like and so go I need to be on the phone with this person I need to find out how they did it Thanks German No I like that because I wonder if a lot of folks are thinking about a resume as um the way to get a job I love the way you're saying it The resume is the objectives Sorry the resume's objective is to get to talk to somebody And that is absolutely correct Very well said I love that Uh okay So we want this beautifully uh laid out resume We want to put the important quantifiable impactful things in the most obvious place so that it's at the front of the first bullet point if they read my PDF resume or it's still at the top of the first bullet point if it's parsed into some other tool Either way we want it to be as obvious as possible So now we're thinking about that prototypical job searcher you mentioned They're they're looking for 6 months They're looking for a year Holy crap Okay How do I do this over and over and over hundreds or thousands of times and actually maintain what you're talking about So a couple questions in that area First of all is the onepage rule or my resume should be about a page or not more than a page Is that still a thing Is that relevant I think it's it's it's it's relevance if you're just starting out I mean I've I've seen people who who who are either just graduated or they have their first job and then they they fill two two pages of stuff in there and I go are you serious I mean you know that means you just have a lot of fluff in there I mean you know unless you said you know I'm a co-founder of a of a startup then that's totally different story Um you know and for people who have been at it for quite some time um I think your resume should be somewhere between one to two pages Um because you you know you don't have to put everything into your resume I mean some of the stuff like ancient history I mean you do you really want people to know what you did 40 years ago you know as your first job Probably not you want you probably want stuff that are more recent you know and and and in a way I mean like the the the structure of the resume changes because you know you if you're a first- time job seeker and you just got over your first job um you tend to have um you tend not to have a whole lot of things you know and you you trying to you know to a certain degree you know stretch out so that it takes up the entire taste Whereas if you're in mid career you have two months you know and so what you want to do is you really want to focus on on some of the things that some of the real big accomplishment because by that time you would have some really big accomplishment that you're really proud of that you can you can talk for days if they if they allows you to do so right And you want to kind of focus on those because that's you know because they kind of illustrate a lot of things illustrate your skill illustrate your experiences illustrate how you think you know and and and and a lot of things that you know a hiring manager at that level will love to to look at That's a pragmatic response Thanks for that And it also hit me while you were talking that uh you know if you are early career you're you're likely applying for an an associate I don't know how else to to say what I'm trying to say Entry-level associate type work So they would also you know I'm sorry I'm trying to get inside the mind of as you said earlier think about who you're uh sending this resume to who the hiring manager is And so it would make sense to me that if you're looking at an entry- level position they would they would expect someone who has less work experience If you're looking at an SVP position you might expect you would hopefully expect somebody who has a page and a half worth of uh work history to get to this point Something like that I think that makes a lot of sense So thanks for that answer um we've got this this this this huge um body of work let's say someone mid-career uh later career something like that This huge body of work in work experience like you said we don't need to uh include when we worked at the ice cream shop when we were 15 probably in our resume but we've got I'm sure you've seen it but unless uh unless you want to be the general manager of an ice cream shop that may or may not really be relevant Um so I've got this huge uh body of work Uh how do I tailor all the experience that I've got to the job I'm applying for in an efficient way In other words I've got a huge amount amount of work experience but each job that we apply for is going to have different requirements So how do I take my experience and practically put that into a resume in an efficient way So I mean the way the way I would do it and and I've been telling people to do this and I've done it myself is really you know to create two resume One of them that has everything you have ever done from your first job to your current job you know you you're still very strategic in terms of how you word that resume how you word that positions how you word your accomplishments you know and then from there you know when you see something that you like then you take that resume and you basically you have to be pretty ruthless You know kind of like an editor for a book you start yanking things out you know you have to keep asking your questions How does you know does does this have any bearing on the position that I'm applying the 70 bearing on the skills and the experiences that I want to show off for these particular positions that I'm applying You know it's like yanking things out And as part of the process you may have to do some rewriting You may have to expand on some of these things a little bit more so that it's more tailored to that positions Um you know but that's that's kind of how I would do it And I would you know because because you already have something in place It's not like oh my god you know I have to do this all over again It's going to take me another 3 days No you can you can get it down to like 45 minutes Yeah No great advice Um have a have a a large master resume of all the things that you've done and as you're applying uh tailor what's there I love the word ruthless editing uh and and then tailor it so that you can turn it down to a manageable job And I like this you know you just threw out a number of 45 minutes as an example I like it because you're thinking about um again these like sit down apply for a couple of jobs do a really good job at that you know do it really well for a couple take a break Okay Right Come back again and and go through this process again That's a very scalable process the master resume I love that Um how important are cover letters um cover letter is really important and the reason for that is because it's it's really complements um what what you have on your resume and it's cover letter is doing things in a very different ways I mean resume tends to be more bullet point driven cover letters is more narrative so in a way you are telling that same story again uh but in a narrative way you know and and you can there are certain things you can say there are certain things you can emphasize when you when you write something in a narrative manners that you can't do in a bullet point Bullet points you know at the end of the day bullet points still require me as the reader to do some mental uh uh connections from one bullet point to the next bullet points you know where the resume basically is kind of laid it out there This is just what I've done Love it Okay Yeah thanks for that answer That's great um the narrative version of what may be bullet points that are making making them put the do the work to put those dots uh connect those dots together Uh love that Um let's see what is uh probably have time for one more question Yes Yes I think this is a good one Okay last one on the resumes if people have gaps in um their employment history uh they've been laid off or or whatever that that is had had a child stayed home things like this right Um how do you address that uh in a positive way Well I mean you know like the gap is is kind of like the elephant in the room right I mean so the first thing you do is you poke a hole in it you know You just just just just just you know put it in the resume you know like whether whether you got layoff whether you have a kid I mean most people understand when they decide to take time off for one reasons or the others I mean especially these days where you know mental health and work is kind of a a very visible things I mean you know I don't think it's it's a it's a bad thing to say you know I took six month off because I need to reset myself Um but I I don't want to you know again I mean like that's not focus of the resume The focus of the resume is really what you can do So I would minimize you know the the the the explanation of that gap to maybe a sentence half a sentence you know you don't have to go into it I mean people understand I mean I think you know you don't cover yourself you know with a story No no I love I love the I loved your first response which was it's the elephant in the room so just address it Poke holes in it So if I'm hearing you right it might be something in the cover I'm totally winging this so feel free to rip me apart Uh in the cover letter you got a sentence that says just straight up something that frames it positively like um after staying home for the last nine months with my firstborn I'm excited to get back to doing whatever Right Right Exactly I mean you know you just kind of gloss it over I mean you know like and people go "Okay yeah whatever." Got it you know and then and then they and then because the the thing is you know you want them to focus back on on your experience your skill sets you know why are you excited about difficult decisions you know So if you can you know so it's it's kind of like you address it but you didn't just address it and you're not you're not emphasizing it It's it's just there It's it's kind of it's a statement Yep You're being honest You're addressing it Just giving the information but not making it the focal point So makes sense And I think that's important Yeah I think that's important to call out because I could also see that if someone feels insecure about their gap they might feel this need to overcompensate and talk about it on and on and then it becomes as you're saying uh less than ideally the focal point of the whole process rather than why do you want to talk to me you know Yeah Because because I think it's just one of those things the more the more you said the more you have your foot in your mouth Um so so it's best to not you know get too deep into it because because the thing is like if I read if I read a three per you know a one paragraph things or three bullet point things as to why you you you've been gone for for 9 months you know my my my my immediate thought is you know is this person do I really want to hire this person Yeah because it seems like they have some issues that it may interfere with the positions I'm hiring Yeah makes sense No it makes a lot of sense As you said if it's handled well most folks are quite understanding these days and and seeing that So that's that's good to call out Okay I don't know how the time goes so fast on this show but I will say um tons of great information Uh it'll all be captured in the show notes for folks So thank you so much for those those answers Sherman We got through so much stuff and we could go on much much more but in the interest of time and digestibility we're going to we're going to keep it there But I asked everybody on Leadership Voyage the same final question and so I'm excited to hear what your answer is What is something that you've learned recently Um well um ASA is a really good tool when it comes to helping you write your resume Um because sometimes I mean you like it's it it's kind of like having somebody working with you bouncing ideas off You know the only thing you have to remember is that AI can hallucinate like one time you know I used I did an experiment with my resume once and it start putting words in my mouth like you know uh reductions of 20% in blah blah blah and I go no say that I just said that I did something I cannot quantify this I mean that's you know but but it's a real it's a great tool you just have to drive it I mean you know it's not like you know do this and then it's done just like do this and you can go well this doesn't this doesn't sound very good do it again you know and so you you may spend half an hour on one positions on one job or one bullet point trying to get it to say close to exactly what you want it to say but in a way that says it better than you can um you know so so that's that's that's something that I learned and the second things that I learned is that you know mentorship is a great things because to help others it also kind of is a self-reflection things you know so I'm trying to help somebody with with their resume and in the process it give me ideas as to how I can refine my own resume you know how I can how I can better focus it because it's a little bit of you know I have to know what I'm talking about to be able to help the other person and by doing so I kind of say oh well I guess I I'm Not I'm not talking the talk and walking the walk Yeah that's great No thanks for the Yeah thanks for the mentor thing I think that's wonderful It reminds me of teaching You know if you really want to learn something start trying to teach it to someone else And what a good uh reminder for all of us Use the AI tools to help with the resume Uh but remember what who's driving the car and that's we are We are the ones driving And I love the hallucination comment That's a fantastic great job with 20% improvement It just makes it up I love that Um well Sherman Okay So for folks who are interested in connecting with you reaching out you know maybe they they're interested in working with you or something Uh I think you had said we'd like to send them to LinkedIn Is that right Yeah I mean you know they can they can go they can go to LinkedIn they can they can they can direct message me from there And I think if my if my email address is there you know they can they can shoot me an email Um you know that's also that's also work I mean like and I mean I'm just doing this for fun Yep exactly Well we'll put those in the show notes uh the LinkedIn link and the um email address And um thank you so much for sparing some time today Sherman Uh really appreciate it Know everybody's going to get a lot out of it So thank you[Music] Okay thanks everybody Uh I'm really glad that you stuck around for this one because it is full of pragmatic advice and it's great to hear someone who's mentoring others helping other colleagues with their job searches with their resumes and you can hear what he's learned through that experience It's really really nice uh to have people on this show who are just doing something because they want to help other people And it's a tough job market out there whether you're unemployed or you are employed but looking for a better opportunity So without any more delay here is our episode recap Strategically when looking for a job first know yourself Understand the culture of an organization Kind of see what you could grow into there These are really important elements when it comes to the job market being so challenging right now with so many layoffs and the government layoffs as well and this domino effect in play Uh it's crowded It's going to be a long process You're going to need persistence to get yourself through it Then we spent the majority of our discussion on résumés and I just had a bunch of questions I think we ended up hitting maybe seven questions or so So the quick summary of those um how much time do we have for someone to look at our resume Think of it like Tinder It's a marketing job Those first impressions are what matter How long after you eventually get in the pile of I might want to talk to you Maybe you have about five minutes for someone to look over what you've put together Mistakes Um Sherman says that one of the most common mistakes he sees is how applicants make others sift through their resume Keep in mind the essent top to bottom left to right Um the layout is important right Put your accomplishments in the first bullet point at the very beginning of the bullet point Make sure that they are apparent to the um the recruiter or the hiring manager How about one page He said if you're early in your career definitely want to keep it to one page but if you're mid-career or later you know there's nothing wrong with going to two pages Uh as far as being efficient in the process of making your tailored resume he said have two résumés One is the master two is the one that you're ruthlessly editing and then tailoring to the specific job you're applying to Cover letters he said they are very important Um they should complement your resume They're very important in telling a narrative version of all the bullet points you've got Work gaps Uh address the elephant in the room Yes you may have a gap in employment but address it in a sentence and then that's over with and and move on So there you go Uh Sherman Chen bringing a lot of actionable information and advice to those of you who are looking for work And as I've said many times here uh I know that half of you who have jobs are looking for jobs And then those of you who are unemployed or undermployed uh you are looking for work as well So hopefully this episode even though I think it walks right up to the line of what most of the Leadership Voyage episodes have been hopefully it's one that those of you who've listened to are able to get a lot out of it Until next time everybody Take care[Music]