The Role of Catechesis in Evangelization

Dr. Eric Westby, Director of the Institute of Catholic Theology in Phoenix, Arizona, and longtime catechist, discusses the essential connection between catechesis and evangelization in the latest episode of Twelve Wicker Baskets. Dr. Westby traces his own journey into catechetics, inspired by mentors and shaped by decades of parish ministry and academic study. He explains the importance of the kerygma—the initial proclamation of the Gospel—as the foundation for catechesis, which deepens conversion and provides roots for discipleship. In today’s post-Christian culture, he emphasizes, the Church must adapt its methods and reclaim a catechumenal model that begins with encounter, fosters conversion and forms missionary disciples.

Highlighting how catechesis and evangelization relate to stewardship and fundraising, Dr. Westby notes that authentic generosity flows from a genuine encounter with Christ and a clear sense of mission. Drawing from both parish life and his role with seminarian formation, he suggests that when people understand themselves as missionary disciples, their financial support follows naturally as a joyful response. The episode underscores the need for diocesan and parish leaders to align fundraising efforts with the mission of evangelization, forming communities where stewardship is understood not as obligation but as a fruit of discipleship.

Guest: Dr. Eric Westby

Title: Director, Institute of Catholic Theology

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Transcript

Christopher Beaudet: I'm Christopher Beaudet with the Steier Group. In the Gospel, Jesus fed 5,000 with only five loaves and two fish. After the crowd was satisfied, there were 12 wicker baskets left over. It seems that whenever you and I set to work and do our part, God provides the abundance.

In each episode of this podcast, I'll explore with pastoral leaders and development professionals from across the United States and Canada all the many ways God meets the spiritual and temporal needs of our parish communities, our Catholic schools and the diocesan church and not only meets those needs, but provides in abundance. You're listening to Twelve Wicker Baskets. 

Dr. Eric J. Westby is the Director of the Institute of Catholic Theology in Phoenix, Arizona. He is also the director of parish catechesis at St. Thomas the Apostle Parish, coordinating Christian initiation for adults, teens and children. He teaches theology for the University of Mary, specializing in the areas of foundational doctrine, evangelization, and catechetics through his studies at the Maryvale Institute of Birmingham, England. He received his doctorate from Liverpool Hope University with his thesis entitled Equipping the Catechist of A Critical Discussion of Seminary Formation in Light of Priestly Ministry in Catechesis. He holds a Master of Arts degree in Theology and Christian Ministry from Franciscan University in Steubenville, from where he was the first student to complete the graduate specialization in catechetics. He holds a Certificate in Youth Ministry Studies from the Center for Ministry Development and has been involved in full time catechesis since 1988. He's a regular presenter at the Summer St John Bosco Catechetical Conference at the Franciscan University of Steubenville. Eric has published articles in the Catholic University of America's International Journal of Evangelization and Catechetics, in Franciscan University's Catechetical Review, and in Emmaus Academics on Speaking the Truth in the Catechism and the New Evangelization. He has developed OCIA and youth ministry curricula available through the Institute of Catholic Theology. And most importantly, he is husband to Nicky and father to five beautiful girls with one grandchild. 

Dr. Eric Westby, thank you so much for joining me on Twelve Wicker Baskets. You and I have been friends, brothers, for many, many years. It's great to have you as a guest today on the podcast.

Dr. Eric Westby: Thank you so much for having me.

Christopher Beaudet: So I got a question for you. Your doctoral research and thesis has been in catechesis?

Dr. Eric Westby: Yep.

Christopher Beaudet: And you know we're talking today about the role of catechesis in evangelization. And we're going to circle at the end here about, you know, fundraising for evangelization, fundraising for preparing, in your case soon for men studying for the priesthood to have a missionary evangelistic catechetical foundation to their priestly ministry. So lots of varying threads here to tie together. But I’m just curious about, you know, if you could share with our listeners what led you to have this focus and this interest on your own heart to want to study it further and obtain the doctoral degree in it?

Dr. Eric Westby: Well, when I graduated from undergrad, I graduated from UCLA with a bachelor's in economics. So when I graduated from undergrad, I went into a ministry training program for one year that put me in a parish to do youth ministry. And I loved it. And so after a couple of years, I decided to go on and pursue a master's degree in theology at the Franciscan University of Steubenville in Ohio, where, of course, I met my wife. We just celebrated our 30th wedding anniversary. 

Christopher Beaudet: Congratulations. 

Dr. Eric Westby: Thank you so much. But when I was at Franciscan, and of course, we could be familiar with some of the great professors that are there, such as Scott Hahn, and I had him, and those were fantastic. But the professor that impacted me the most, she passed away in 2019. But her name is Barbara Morgan. And Barbara was brought into Franciscan in the fall of 1994 to begin a certificate in catechetics that would be part of the master's degree program. And I remember attending her very first class ever. It was an early morning class, and I sat up front, which I usually don't do. And as Barbara started teaching, within about five seconds, I knew that I was absolutely meant to not only be in her class, but to glean from her everything I could. And so she. She was speaking to me in a way that was. Was touching me personally and way that touched me in terms of vocation. And she gave me a passion for catechetics. And that led me to.

Christopher Beaudet: Can I just ask, what had been your exposure to catechesis before this?

Dr. Eric Westby: Well, it was primarily working in a parish as a youth minister, and I'd been to a few workshops and conferences, so I had some introductory formation. Again, my undergrad was in economics, so I didn't have any undergraduate level theology. To be honest, I wasn't even involved in my own parish's youth group when I was in high school. I think we had one. I really don't know. The first time I ever went to a youth group, I was the youth minister. I was directing it.

Christopher Beaudet: Okay.

Dr. Eric Westby: And so I had done that for a few years. And I really loved working in the Church. I love passing on the faith. I love to see people respond to the Lord and to, you know, get meaning in life and to get the direction. So I went to Steubenville thinking, you know, I'm going to get a master's in theology. And after I started in the middle of the year, I started in January of 94. So when we got to the fall of 1994, they were starting this new certificate in catechetics. And that's where Barbara came into the picture. And Barbara, by that time, had finished a master's degree. She had many years of experience in the field. She and her husband actually met here in Phoenix, went to the same high school that our kids have gone to, St. Mary's Catholic High School in Phoenix. So we had. Well, actually, at that time, when I first met her, I did not have a Phoenix connection yet. So that was in the future still. But Barbara and I just hit it off. And I gleaned so much from her, especially she was able to articulate catechetics and what should be happening not only at a parish level, but at a diocesan level and on a universal church level. She knew all of that. She knew how all of it worked. So she just inspired me to make this a lifelong profession and vocation.

Christopher Beaudet: And you said, this is 94. And just two years prior, 1992, the Catechism of the Catholic Church had been issued under St. John Paul II, which itself was, you know, a collective undertaking of quite some time. And catechesis, from my understanding, comes from the Greek meaning oral teaching, handing on, not kerygma, which is the, I guess, orally proclamation of the Gospel, but similar, I would think. And it seems to me that the role of catechesis has kind of had ebbs and flows in terms as a pedagogy of teaching the faith. I was going to share this story with you years ago, maybe probably over 20 years ago now, an 8th grader at a local Catholic school asked if he could interview me as part of a school assignment he had been given in religion class. And the assignment required students to select several people in their lives to interview about the Catholic faith by posing a series of defined questions that the students were given so they couldn't make up. They had to ask those questions in particular. And when we met, one of his questions was, what is the purpose of life? And I replied almost immediately: to know, love and serve God. In this life so as to be happy with him forever in the next. And he put his pen down and he looked at me with some amazement, and he paused and he said, you know, that's basically word for word what my grandparents and so many others I have interviewed have said. He was struck by the, you know, by the consistency and how succinct that answer is. And I remember how surprised he looked that so many people could answer such a profound question that many would consider entirely subjective.

What's the purpose of life? Well, I'm going to get as many answers as people I ask. And that got me thinking about the role of catechesis, that, of course, my parents taught me that. And of course, they learned largely from the Baltimore Catechism, which I think came out in the late 80s, 1885, I think the Council of Baltimore, and several catechisms were, you know, premised on that and used in schools and churches. And then in the 60s, catechesis as a way of teaching the faith. Kind of was shelved, I guess, more or less. And then, interestingly, you had people like. In my generation, as we became young adults, we sort of found ourselves a bit ignorant of the faith, that the faith has a content. Right. You can say, well, it's about a relationship with the Lord. Absolutely true. But the question then becomes, well, who's the Lord with whom you have a relationship? Like, who is he? So I'm just curious about your perspective on the benefits of catechesis in terms of conveying actual doctrinal content to. To be learned, to know, and what role that plays in your ability to evangelize.

Dr. Eric Westby: Yeah, so there's a couple of issues that come up there, but I want to just start with the early church and what the early church did. But you could see this in the way the Lord taught, right? The Lord, the beginning of Mark's Gospel, he goes out and he's proclaiming the kingdom of God. And it has this sense because of the Word, which, again, I'm no Greek scholar, but I know enough to know that the acclamation at the beginning of Mark's Gospel is essentially the word Kerygma. You know, this initial first announcement. And a great example of this is in Acts, chapter two, St. Peter, right after Pentecost, he. He goes out and he. He preaches in Jerusalem,

which, you know, through the power of the Holy Spirit, he's. He's moved from fear to boldness. You know, he's preaching to thousands. You know, I don't know how many were there but there, there were 3,000 that were baptized that day. So it tells you that the pretty powerful amount, right? Yeah. And you know, he's got those in front of them who had conspired to kill the Lord. So he's got those who are guilty of that in front of him and he. He preaches Christ crucified and resurrected. Right. It's an example of the kerygma. It says the scriptures say that, that, that the listeners are cut to the heart and they say, what. What are we to do? And he, St. Peter says, we're to repent, believe in the gospel and be baptized. So they get baptized. But there's a really interesting passage that follows that. Acts 2:42. It talks about how then the early Christians followed the teaching of the apostles. They broke bread together, they had fellowship together and prayer. And those are the elements that make up the tradition of the church, the apostolic tradition that gets passed on from generation to generation along with the Scriptures. That's called the deposit of faith, and that's the content of catechesis. So the point I want to make right now with you is just that there's this first introduction to Christ, this introductory proclamation of the Gospel, and then there's providing roots to that, which is essentially what catechesis is doing. Catechesis is taking that initial proclamation and it's going deeper. It's providing roots. And so, you know, you've mentioned not perhaps receiving that catechesis. Right. When you were growing up.

Christopher Beaudet: Well, I was, I was fortunate that in fact I did.

Dr. Eric Westby: Yeah. Oh, good, good.

Christopher Beaudet: Because my parents were older than most of my peers parents, so they had been, you know, they, they had the benefit of, of. Why call it a benefit? I mean, they knew their faith, they knew their Catholic faith, and they taught it well.

Dr. Eric Westby: What you see then is, is Certainly in the 60s, you know, a little bit before, during. And then after the Second Vatican Council and then into the 70s and certainly 80s, the Church in terms of catechesis is going through quite a transition. But in part it's a reflection of, of the broader culture, certainly in the West. It's a reflection of the broader culture and the cultural changes that are going on there. That, and you see this, by the way, beautifully summarized in the work of the president of the University of Mary, Monsignor James Shea. And Monsignor has this book called From Christendom to Apostolic Mission. And he, he basically says that, that we find ourselves now in a world from a worldview standpoint, from a philosophy that everyone has, whether they Realize it or not, a worldview of philosophy, they're operating out of key principles. And Monsignor's premise, which I think is spot on, is that our world today, in terms of a worldview is closer to what the apostles experienced in the first century than it is from a hundred years ago. Right. Where the Christian understanding and a Christian worldview was more prevalent. But we've gone through such transformation in our culture over the last hundred years that we're in a post Christian world,

and that's affected catechesis. And you mentioned this, and I know many people that have had good experiences with the Baltimore Catechism. Right. Because the Baltimore Catechism. Short, sweet, clear, easy to memorize. And, you know, as you've mentioned.

Christopher Beaudet: Yeah.

Dr. Eric Westby: Like, you don't forget that. Right.

Christopher Beaudet: Like, answer. I had at the ready for a pretty significant question.

Dr. Eric Westby: Yeah. So that's great. In a culture that is primarily what Monsignor would call a Christendom culture. Right. Where there's that worldview that is kind of baked into people, then. Yeah. There's an openness to Jesus. There's an openness to an existence that goes beyond the visible. Right. There is an invisible reality that.

Christopher Beaudet: And not only that, but there's an openness or a cognizant realization of nature,

the nature of things, including the nature of the human person. So even before questions of faith and God, who the human, you have a Christian anthropology. You have an understanding of the very being of the human being.

Dr. Eric Westby: Correct. There's a different way to look at, and I would say a fuller. Right. Understanding of what it means to be human, a fuller understanding of reality. But now we're in a different place. We're in a different place where the vast majority of people. Again, I'm not a philosopher, but I would summarize it by saying that people look at the transcendent, the invisible God, the angelic, the supernatural as being either myth or fairy tale or something that's private.

We're not going to impose that on others. Right. It's a private matter. And so there's not this openness to the invisible that there was in a Christendom society. And that's affected catechesis, and it certainly has. Well, I would summarize it like this. And this is the way the church documents stated that there needs to be in our day and age today, a much more concerted effort to first proclaim the Kerygma, as I think Peter did, and then to build on that with catechesis. Right. To develop deeper roots after the initial proclamation and to recognize that sometimes people who are showing up for instruction, which should be deeper in the faith actually have not had that first conversion. And so there's been a big movement, I think certainly over the last 50 years, maybe even more. And now we've seen it in Pope Francis's Evangelii Gaudium, a movement towards what is called charismatic catechesis, to make sure that in every catechetical setting that the kerygma is proclaimed, that it becomes, if you will, the anchor point for any doctrine that is taught. But the doctrine still needs to be taught because people have to have roots to their faith and make sure that they can withstand the difficulties that life that the world will throw at them.

Christopher Beaudet: I had not thought about that. Starting with catechesis is made much more easy or even practical to your point. When all of the necessary givens and cultural supports and worldview is in place already, you can get into questions like to know, love and serve God in this life so as to be with him forever in the next. Okay. But if you don't even know who you are as a human being or you know, or I guess more fundamental things and, and you just, you don't even know that there's objective truth or, I don't know, like you're completely drinking from the, you know, the drinking the Kool Aid of a secular worldview. And into that world comes God in the flesh and the person of Jesus. Am I, am I articulating this? Right? Like that's it's about, it is about relationship first with, with Jesus and then that, like how does that look? That initial kerygma?

Dr. Eric Westby: It could take a, a variety of different forms. I, I'll say this, that, that the church has a model for this in what we now call the OCIA process, Order of Christian Initiation of Adults, that there's to be. Before catechesis is imparted to those who are preparing for sacraments, there's a period of what's called inquiry, which is a time for participants to ask questions, but it's a time to, to root people in the Gospel of Jesus. But there's a wide variety of ways though, that, that kerygma can be imparted. It could be something formal at a parish, it could be in one-on-one relationships. Right. And in today's day and age, for better and worse, it also could be through social media.

Christopher Beaudet: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Eric Westby: And I say worse because there are, there's a lot of people who have got a platform on social media who are quote, unquote, influencers who are not influencing in the right direction.

So that. That's another. That's another challenge that that is out there.

Christopher Beaudet: And kerygma, by the way, comes from the Greek, like this proclamation or.

But it isn't. It's just a Greek word. I mean, wouldn't it be fair to say that, you know, a kerygma could be for any kind of platform or agenda or worldview or is it explicitly the Christian proclamation?

Dr. Eric Westby: Well, the way I'm using it is certainly in the sense of the Christian proclamation of Jesus Christ that he loves you, he's died for you, he rose from the dead, and he offers you new life. That's the simple kerygma. But with the kerygma, which I think is then carried over into catechesis, there's a content, but then there's a response to it. You know, when the Lord at the beginning of St. Mark's Gospel is announcing the kerygma of repent or of, you know, the proclamation of the kingdom, it comes with this element of repentance to it. You know, when St. Peter is doing that initial proclamation on the day of Pentecost in Acts, chapter two, there's this element of repentance, right? You have to repent and be baptized. So there's an edge to the kerygma that it's an invitation that Christ gives to me personally to follow him, but then to follow him according to his demands, to allow him to lead me to new life, to allow him to mold me, to shape me into. Into his disciple, his follower, to have my nature transformed. Easier said than done, right? Because we're, we're all works in progress. It's a lifelong process to, to convert. But to recognize that, that kerygma has this. This invitation to discipleship, to repentance, and that. That is strengthened in catechesis. That catechesis goes deeper. And I think to piggyback on what you're saying, there is with catechesis, though,

more of an intellectual engagement, right? As St. Paul would say in Romans 12:1 and 2, it's a renewal of the mind. It's to really have the mind transformed, to think with the mind of Christ, to have depth in discipleship so that my conversion can go deeper. That was something that Barbara always stressed with us, right? There's always in catechesis, this deepening of conversion. So we're just in a really interesting time right now where we have to almost go back to the very beginning and It's a re-proclamation or of course, as John Paul II said, and the Pope since a new evangelization.

Christopher Beaudet: Right. And before we started recording, you and I were talking about a little bit about this, and you mentioned a catechumenal approach to all catechesis. And I think that's what you're speaking to now, is that catechesis, if it's well done, will not only inform the mind, but it will deepen the conversion and the conversion of heart, worldview longing that happens with that charismatic impact upon hearing the gospel. Would you. Would you think, would you say it's fair to say that a kerygma without catechesis is, is going to limp and a catechesis without an original kerygma is going to limp. I don't know, but

Dr. Eric Westby: Yes.

Christopher Beaudet: Because I'm wondering if. If this. I'm just thinking. And now as we're talking, if the really dramatic shift to a post Christian in the West, Europe, North America, South America, if that transition happened so quickly because we relied only on catechesis without the kerygma.

Dr. Eric Westby: Well, this is where I think Monsignor Shea has articulated that, that, you know,

in this short amount of time, there's been such a profound change to the faithful, let alone to the world,

that the methods that we used a hundred years ago, let alone 75 years ago, have to be not only. It's not just a question of re. Examined, but there has to be new methods. And again, to use John Paul II's phrase, the new evangelization is new in ardor, methods and expression. And as I'm sure you and I both have experienced within the Church, sometimes to do things differently is not happening. This is the way we've been doing catechesis like this since the first pilgrim showed up to the United States. So we're not exactly gonna. We're not exactly gonna adapt that. So you said something, though, that, that struck me with this. The. If the kerygma doesn't have catechesis, it doesn't have roots.

Christopher Beaudet: Okay.

Dr. Eric Westby: Gotta be roots. And if catechesis doesn't have the kerygma, it will be stale. It will lose life. So what you see happening in what are called the Church's catechetical directories, since the Second Vatican Council, the Church has published three. They call them catechetical directories. They come out of the Holy See, out of the Vatican. Right. And a directory gives directives, Right. Here's what should be happening in catechesis. Well, what's happened in the last two directories, there was one in 97 and then one in, I think it was 2020, is that there's been recourse to say that, you know, there's a phenomenon in the Church that you have actually fully initiated Catholics from a sacramental standpoint, who are baptized, confirmed, and have received the Eucharist, who have not responded to the kerygma and have not yet been catechized. You know, which I would love to have a podcast with you about the canonical ramifications of that. You have people that are sacramentally initiated and yet they don't believe. Right? Right. And you have people in these categories that have stopped coming to Mass on a Sunday basis. Right. So what the Church has said in light of this phenomenon is that the catechumenate, and that's a big word, you can tell already it's related to catechesis. If catechesis is the handing on or the echoing down. I hear that a lot of the deposit of faith of the teachings of the Church. Right. That gives maturation to one's faith. Think of the catechumenate as the entire process by which someone is initiated. So catechumenate we would use interchangeably with OCIA. Right. So if you were saying, oh, we have the catechumenate at our parish, it would be like saying, we have an OCIA process at our parish.

Christopher Beaudet: But that presumes, doesn't it, somebody's in. That someone becomes a catechumen in the catechumenate because he or she is responding first to the kerygma.

Dr. Eric Westby: Correct. But the point that the Church is making is that the catechumenate now is the model not just for the formation of the unbaptized person, which it is first and foremost.

And it's not just the formation of the person who is completing their sacraments of initiation. It's actually the model of all formation, even for those who have received baptism, confirmation, and the Eucharist. The catechumenate is the model of formation for those that are already fully initiated but haven't actually responded in faith to the Gospel. So it doesn't say in the directories that a person who is fully initiated sacramentally, but who has not responded in faith should go through the OCIA process. It doesn't say it like that. It says that the person that all people, even if they're fully initiated Catholic, should have some type of experience that echoes. That models the catechumenate, which starts with charismatic proclamation and goes deeper.

Christopher Beaudet: Okay.

Dr. Eric Westby: And It's a process of going deeper, and it's in part because we're in this, this, this new age that Monsignor has, has really beautifully articulated.

Christopher Beaudet: Right, right. I love this great conversation. At this point, I just want to take a very brief break and then when we come back, I want to talk about the practical implications of how people can be invited to financially support. Right. Money follows mission. We're talking about this mission, this new evangelization, and different ways that this can be supported to make it concrete. So don't go anywhere. I am speaking with Dr. Eric Westby about the role of catechesis and evangelism. We will be right back.

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Christopher Beaudet: Thanks for staying with me. I'm talking with Dr. Eric Westby about the role of catechesis in evangelization. And right before the break, Eric, you were mentioning again Monsignor Shea's book that if we are going to use the catechumenate as sort of the benchmark or the model for ongoing catechesis and formation of people already fully initiated into the sacramental life of the church, much less for those who've never even been baptized, that that's going to require shaking things up. That's going to require the new evangelization, as you said, is new in many ways. And it just so happens that the Steier Group is currently working with the Archdiocese of Philadelphia, a great historic, you know, die archdiocese right in the founding, early years of the founding of the nation and you know, past archbishop as a saint, Saint John Newman and just a Catholic powerhouse archdiocese. Well, Archbishop Perez, the Archbishop there now has noted that, you know, north of 80% of Catholics do not attend the Eucharist on Sundays, which as we know, the Eucharist is the source and the summit of the Christian faith. So if, if a, if a Catholic's not going to Mass,

something's clearly not right. The assessment is that what's missing is this charismatic encounter with the person of Jesus that is so powerful, it's life changing, etc. So the archdiocese is embarking upon an endeavor that's entirely new. There isn't a template for it whereby other than Scripture. It's a good, good template to establish missionary hubs that will have a primary objective of evangelization,

this kerygma in the community and engaging and inviting and welcoming to people. And they're considering testing a capital campaign to provide the funding and the wherewithal to get these missionary hubs established. It's novel. It is new in methodology. It is, it is. I mean, again, given how things have, how we've become accustomed to how things, catechesis and evangelization has gone and we can see how well it's worked. And so thus this new approach, the priests there are behind it,

they're excited about it. I think there's, you know, it's like you said earlier, it's hard for the church, sometimes all of us, clergy and lay alike, to embrace this new approach. Talk to me a little bit about your experience, I think your role in a seminary, in forming men to become priests that share this vision that we're talking about, you know, in the financial needs, support that are needed to support that seminary. Talk to me a little bit about what's happening there, what you're doing, and maybe some ideas for, you know, other dioceses or other communities to mimic something like Philadelphia is doing.

Dr. Eric Westby: So I want to start by just sharing a little bit about how the catechumen it works, because you mentioned something a few minutes ago about getting those Catholics who understand a sense of mission to then help support it through their prayer and financial giving, which is crucial, absolutely crucial. And I think what the catechumenate answers is how to get someone to a point where they understand that they are, as Pope Francis would say, a missionary disciple. Right. I am a disciple who is on a mission and that comes from the Lord, from within, and not because of a pulpit announcement or a bulletin article. Right. It comes because I know I need to give to support that. Right. I'm a steward of that. So in the catechumenal model, it has this flow from taking someone who is who barely knows anything about religion, let alone the Lord Jesus. Right. And introducing them to the kerygma and building, Starting to build relationships with the Christian community. This, for example, in OCIA would happen in inquiry. And then it moves the person into formal instruction for the sacraments. And that's months, if not years, of instruction in the catech in receiving catechesis. So it goes from kerygma to catechesis. But then in OCIA, there's two more stages after this. In Lent, there's what's called the stage of purification and enlightenment. It's a time of repentance, of prayer, but deeper intimacy with the Lord. Right, Prayerful intimacy. And then the last stage, which actually happens after the reception of sacraments is called “mystagogy”. And you can see, like the word mystery in there, right. Is to reflect on the mysteries. What mysteries are we talking about? The invisible graces that the Lord has given the person in those sacraments of baptism, confirmation and first communion. And I want to highlight mystagogy for you because it's at that point that the person is fully initiated. There's still instruction, but the instruction is to help them know the Lord Jesus more deeply, to understand what it is they're participating in, especially with the Eucharist, but then to be equipped for mission. That's a really important part of mystagogy, Right. To start to get into one's vocation. You know, we. We have, in our OCIA process, we give participants an opportunity after they're baptized and after they've received all the sacraments, to go through a spiritual gifts discernment seminar. Right. But this is the time period where they go through and they contemplate that they have a mission. So what I would recommend. And again, I'm not a fundraising person, I'm a catechist. Right, right. As I would encourage those in Catholic development to be really reflecting on these stages of the OCIA process, because what could be happening is that those who are being asked to contribute haven't even responded to the Gospel yet. What kind of a formation process have they gone through? Knowing that we want them to have a sense of ownership to mission, but they have to go through formation. Those in a formal OCIA process will be going through these stages. Right. It might look a little bit differently from parish to parish, but how do you take the person who's actually sacramentally initiated, but hasn't really gone through this kind of a conversion process? How do you bring it through? And this is where I think there's going to be a lot of room for pastors to say, well, I'm going to do my parish like this. And another pastor is going to say, well, I'm going to do it like this. There could be separate initiatives for those that are already initiated there. Also, depending on resources, could be an approach where a pastor might say, you know, I don't have that many resources, but I'm going to actually lump everybody together. And a pastor could say that, you know, I'm going to have the unbaptized and the fully initiated together, and we're going to go through this together and we're just going to make this process what happens. Because, again, we have limited resources. I get that. But the way that someone is brought to mission happens through these encounters with the Lord, from initial, initial kerygma to catechesis to prayer to receiving the sacraments. And I think that the more that that can be developed in parish life, the greater success. Not that I can quantitize it with money and say, here's how much money you will raise. That. That's your expertise.

Christopher Beaudet: Sure, sure.

Dr. Eric Westby: But. But the more that. That I think the average Catholic will understand, oh, I.

I have a part to play in this. And it's not gonna be Father that dictates that for me. No, no, it's the Lord. Like, this is coming out of my relationship with the Lord.

Christopher Beaudet: Right.

Dr. Eric Westby: So you just tell me where to send the check, because I already had the checkbook out.

Christopher Beaudet: Yeah, yeah. I was gonna say, we often say that money follows mission.

And so fundraising isn't so much about coaxing or cajoling, much less strong arming. It's invitation to people who, you know, the premise is that there's already a heart and passion for the mission to be funded and supported. In the last couple of minutes that we have here, I know you're going to talk about your involvement at the seminary there. And because everything you just said is very parochial based, which I love, smaller community engagement and invitation and proclamation. How can priests be helped, especially, I guess, future priests who are in formation presently to help be good leaders along these lines?

Dr. Eric Westby: Well, just to give it the broader perspective. So in the fall of 26, I will be in charge of the academics at the new Graduate School of Theology in Phoenix. That will be an outreach to the University of Mary, again under the leadership of Monsignor Shea, but working with our bishop, Bishop John Dolan, and his seminary staff, we're starting graduate theology here in the diocese. This will be the first time that that's happened. In Phoenix, lay people will be encouraged to participate, but the classes will be, you know, first and foremost for the seminarians of the diocese that are within four years or so from being ordained to the priesthood. So one of the particular charisms that. That we will have, and this will develop in time, will be to be pondering Monsignor Shea's book From Christendom to Apostolic Mission, and to be thinking through how in the seminary, especially in the intellectual formation in the classroom, how are we going to prepare these young men for this age that we're in?

Which is a daunting task because we're preparing for something that's in the future. Right. So we have to trust the Lord with that, but to put on their radar that the Church is thinking differently. Right. Monsignor Shea has summarized this greater change in the worldview that's going on out there. But the Church has written on this from Vatican II on, the church has written on this day that we're an age that we're in. And I think what we're going to see in our seminary is that each course is going to have this connection to pastoral implementation and what does it mean to be forming the faithful for mission in this period that we're in right now. But also it's going to be forming the seminarians to be always on the lookout for those that are not part of the church at this time, that are outside of the faith.

And I think a whole dynamic that I can't say that I'm prepared to answer or say, here's how we're going to engage this. But sure, but with so many different voices out there in the social media sphere,

that's another challenge that is out there. There's so many influences that I think are not good, let alone what is going to be happening with AI and how to navigate that so that the student, and in this case the seminarian is really learning, is really equipped. Right. And it's not just relying on chatGPT or Grok to write a paper.

Christopher Beaudet: Right.

Dr. Eric Westby: And I will also throw this into it. How can we help these young men to really be good at forming relationships with their flock? Right. Good, healthy relationships, because the relationships are crucial. Right. It's, you know, we're an incarnational faith in incarnational people and to help people, to help the average layperson understand their. Their mission and their role in life. While the seminarian has to be trained to engage people and to engage people in a way that I think is. Is. Is really built off of good friendship.

Christopher Beaudet: Yep.

Dr. Eric Westby: So how do we do that. I'm just so excited about what we're going to be doing that at times I kind of get overwhelmed. I'm like, okay, what are we going to be? What are we going to be doing? But we're going to be doing something I think that is going to be unique and going to be exciting and I think it's going to have great blessings for our diocese. And I'm just excited to watch it.

Christopher Beaudet: Well, I'm excited as well to see that unfold. And yeah, it's exciting to hear about things in Philadelphia, which by the way, is also heavily influenced by Monsignor Shea's book and now here in the Diocese of Phoenix. Clearly all of this is a fruit of the Holy Spirit moving in people's hearts and then the leadership of the faith, the church, and for your role in it, Eric, and for your own witness to your family life, your beautiful family and your role there at St. Thomas the Apostle in Phoenix and soon at the seminary. Thank you for your generous response to the kerygma and catechesis you've received and for spending some time with me today on Twelve Wicker Baskets. Really grateful.

Dr. Eric Westby: My pleasure. Thank you, my brother.

Christopher Beaudet: My thanks to Dr. Eric Westby for sharing his thoughts on the traditional role of catechesis in religious formation but emphasizing the primacy and importance of kerygma born from an encounter with the Lord. It's a helpful thing to remember when inviting people to support the Church's mission with their financial resources, since giving to the church from a stewardship perspective is part of a response to meeting Christ, experiencing giftedness in our own lives and responding to in generosity. Reach out to us with questions or comments at twb@steiergroup.com and please subscribe and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends so they can tune in each month for inspiring, hopeful and faith filled conversations. We'll be back again at the end of next month here on Twelve Wicker Baskets.