302. Experimental Prose in Memoir with Jennifer Lang

Author and yogi Jennifer Lang talks about experimental prose, how to use it in memoir, and why it gives you more freedom in telling your story.

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Jennifer Lang is a San Francisco Bay Area transplant in Tel Aviv. Last September, she celebrated her first book, Places We Left Behind: a memoir-in-miniature; in October 2024, she welcomed Landed: A yogi’s memoir in pieces & poses into the world. A graduate of Vermont College of Fine Arts, Jennifer was an Assistant Editor at Brevity. Her prize-winning essays appear in Baltimore Review, Under the Sun, Midway Journal, and elsewhere. A longtime yoga instructor, she teaches YogaProse.

Connect with Jennifer:
https://israelwriterstudio.com
instagram.com/jenlangwrites facebook.com/jenlangwrites
facebook.com/israelwriterstudio

Transcript

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Jennia: Hello, I'm Jennia D'Lima. Welcome to Writing and Editing, the author-focused podcast that takes a whole person approach to everything related to both writing and editing. Memoirs are often written using the standard narrative form, but some memoir authors are choosing alternative ways of telling their stories. They may be nonlinear, they might use diary entries, or they could incorporate verse in visual elements. Author Jennifer Lang has written two non-conventional memoirs and she'll be sharing how you can do the same and why it might also allow you more freedom in telling your story.

Jennia: Well, first, I'm so glad to have you here!

Jennifer Lang: Thank you so much. I'm honored to be here!

Jennia: Can you explain what types of experimental prose can be found in your memoirs?

Jennifer Lang: Sure. So I did a bunch of weird things, things that maybe I'd seen before, but never in a book form. I'd seen here, I'd seen there, I'd seen in artwork, I'd seen maybe in poetry, but not in book. And so what happened was, is I was telling my stories. The first book called, Places We Left Behind: A Memoir in Miniature, which came out last September.

Jennia: Mhm.

Jennifer Lang: And my forthcoming book, which comes out next week, Landed: A Yogi's Memoir in Pieces and Poses, is that I first compressed the prose. So I went from, like, a 95,000 word one manuscript that lacked heart and clear narrative to two books that I didn't realize was becoming two books. That was a circuitous, nonlinear journey. But in trying to get my first one, Places We Left Behind, published as a chap book, initially. A chap book of prose, of creative nonfiction prose, I noticed in the guidelines for submissions from small publishers, "Open to experimental prose." And this phrase just jumped out at me at a certain point, kind of halfway through submitting it. So I would say it was a six or seven month story from the beginning—or maybe eight or nine, and I don't remember—from the beginning of looking for a publisher to the end. And midway through I found this "Open to experimental prose," I went into the traditionally written manuscript and I started to experiment. And an early reader of an early iteration of the manuscript had said to me, "I wish I could see the pro/con list about"—

Jennia: Ahh.

Jennifer Lang: —"should you move in with your boyfriend or not?" And I was, like, "Wow, I could recreate that pro/con list." So I started there. So on the left side of the page I have plus, on the right side I have minus. And then I created a little table. And then I realized I used the expression that I had a checklist, an imaginary checklist of what I was looking for in a guy. So I created a checklist with, you know, text on the left and the check mark on the right. And then it really—it evolved from there. I did what a poet might do, that I moved the text in different parts of the pages because it felt like it was calling for it. It just happened from within. It didn't happen from a place of, "Oh, I've studied this in poetry and so I'm going to do this." I've never studied poetry. So I do all kinds of really funky things. Strikethrough text, blackened out text—

Jennia: Mhm.

Jennifer Lang: —reduction using, on the same page, different size. One word is going to be 12 point font, the next word is 14, the next word is 16. For different reasons, for emphasis, for all kinds of different reasons. Caption bubbles, endnotes, footnotes, you name it.

Jennia: Can you describe a little bit what difference in emotional tone you think some of these changes have versus strictly writing in, I don't wanna say, regular prose?

Jennifer Lang: I've heard from people and I think I'm inclined to agree. It made the text, which can be very, very heavy at times, playful.

Jennia: Ahh, yeah.

Jennifer Lang: And it kind of lightened the story. I was game for that. So I'm a yoga teacher, and I would say my favorite yoga teachers of all times are those who use humor. So doing, like, what I call a kick-ass yoga practice and—or holding a pose for a long time. But a teacher talking and maybe making a joke, a well-told joke. And so I tried to bring that to my yoga students. And so I think that unconsciously, I tried to bring that to the writing. And also, as a reader, I read a lot and, as a reader, I love snarky writers.

Jennia: Yes!

Jennifer Lang: I love that. And, like, self-deprecating, and I think, "Wow, I don't know how to do that." And so this was kind of my feeble or first attempt at doing that. So I think it lightened the prose.

Jennia: Mhm.

Jennifer Lang: In a good way. I also think, and I've heard this from people, it engages the reader in a way that I never thought about. It kind of demands the reader pay attention—

Jennia: Ah, yeah.

Jennifer Lang: —and process and think. Because, like, for example, I have a chapter in my first book called, "The Coordinates," and there's no text, just geographic coordinates. One versus the other to show the dilemma of where do we live, without repeating the information. So it's not that a reader is going to go and look up those coordinates, but a reader's going to think, "Oh, that's from earlier. That's this place and that place." And that's kind of cool.

Jennia: Yeah, but they could! And so you're also introducing this interactive element that's largely going to be absent from something told in typical prose, because you aren't really asked to do anything except read and take in. And then the level of analysis or extrapolation that you want to give to it is really on the reader. But, yeah, this is inviting them and letting them feel like they're more of a part of it, I think.

Jennifer Lang: Yeah, exactly what you said.

Jennia: So you were saying how you organically found these pieces and then were able to adapt them. Do you think that that's going to be a key part for people who want to do something similar?

Jennifer Lang: So I think I'll start with this, and it's something I teach. I teach creative writing and I—

Jennia: Oh okay.

Jennifer Lang: —offer . . . I run a workshop called, "Dare, Push, Play on the Page." And it's kind of taking people through this idea of, if writing something scares the hell out of you. I mean, in the world of memoir, let's say.

Jennia: Mhm.

Jennifer Lang: There's fear of putting something on the page, fear that someone will read it, fear of admitting it. It can be fear on any level. I guide them to different techniques to write it and then to do something to the text, to change the text somehow, to create distance. It will create distance between the words and the writer, the narrator, the writer. And I think that that's helping people see that you might be able to write things you never imagined before if you do things like this to the text.

Jennia: Yeah, I can see that. Especially with, you know, the distance aspect that you're talking about, because I think that's especially important in memoir. Because if you're still feeling those feelings too heavily and then you're weighed down by the emotions or even what it reminds you of, those memories it brings back up. And then you try and put that on paper . . . It's going to be really difficult to see what the reader is going to see, because you're still in the thick of it. But, yeah, I can see that pulling back a little bit. You know, taking that playful quality. Or even asking yourself, "How can I use typography to show where I want the emphasis to be and where I want the reader to really focus? What I want them to take from this? What I've taken from this?"

Jennifer Lang: Yeah, super well said.

Jennia: Well, are there any methods of experimental prose that you haven't used yet, but you would like to use in the future?

Jennifer Lang: Oh my gosh! So I've never been asked that, but I think that's unanswerable because there was no template for me.

Jennia: Mhm.

Jennifer Lang: I'm not following anyone else's form. This is me creating, kind of paving new roads. There's no roadmap. It's coming from within, and it's really affecting me. Meaning writing straight prose right now has become impossible. It feels boring to me.

Jennia: Ohh, that's interesting. Yeah (Jennifer laughs). Have you spoken to anyone else who's done anything similar, who's had that same outcome?

Jennifer Lang: No. And the thing is, I'm not an artist. I don't have, like, an outlet of, "Oh, I'll just doodle my way through this." So there is no template. There is no guidelines. I'm not an artist. I wish I were! Because I think it would make it easier. I think if I were artistic or I think of just someone who doodles—like, I think it would translate beautifully onto the page with text. That's not what I'm doing. I have a true/false in my second book in Landed, where I'm telling the story—

Jennia: Mhm.

Jennifer Lang: —through, I think, 16 or 17 quest—facts. And then I have true/false on the right side of the page. And I'm indicating whether it's true or false, and it's telling the story as I go. I don't know where that came from. It just came from some weird place within me.

Jennia: See, I would say that you're artistic, though, because even this is so artistic. You're using artistry to manipulate words and the way that the words are presented so that you are giving this creative interpretation that most people probably won't even think of when they're sitting down to write.

Jennifer Lang: Okay, sure (Jennia laughs). Thank you!

Jennia: You're welcome! (laughs some more). Well, so how do you tap into this creativity, though? Like, do these ideas just spontaneously come to you? Do you carve out time in your day? Do you look for other inspiration?

Jennifer Lang: I want to say, I can't answer that, but then I'm going to say to you, that's not true. Right? So I go to the gym a few times a week. I have a solid, you know, at least once a week yoga practice still. Yoga's been in my life since I was 30; I'm 59 years old, so essentially half my life. You know, like, I think any athlete—and I don't consider myself an athlete—but, like, any athlete who will say, "Every day I run 30 miles, and in my run, I have clarity." And so that's what happens, right? The endorphin release, the adrenaline, and just clarity in the head. So I've had whole ideas and whole text come to me. It's very seldom, but it has happened over the years.

Jennia: Mhm.

Jennifer Lang: Like, especially being on a yoga mat. So I definitely get inspiration there. Or being out in nature. That helps also with clearing and clarity, to then leave room for creativity. I'm not an artist, but I admire art. So if there's an exhibit to go to, I will go. Like, something at a gallery or at a museum. And so, yeah, I'm always looking for inspiration. I'm a huge moviegoer. I can go to the movies, like, several times a week, I'd be very happy. And I now go to the movies and, like, I'm thinking about those scripts.

Jennia: Mmm.

Jennifer Lang: Ten years ago, I didn't. Five years ago, I wasn't. It's with age. With age and writing experience. Not age, but just with writing.

Jennia: Mhm.

Jennifer Lang: Character development! You know, watch a good Netflix series and watch character development, wow! So it's kind of everywhere, really.

Jennia: Yeah. But I think, too, then people are going to see some of the influence of other mediums then on how you arrived at some of these types of prose. So I'm thinking even, like, the captions and that sort of thing, because . . . I'm just thinking, for instance, about movies where we see the text overlay over the imagery, for instance, and then thinking, "Okay, how can I use that in my own story, but in written form?"—

Jennifer Lang: Mhm.

Jennia: —And then even how you can adapt it so it will fit on the page, and it might not need all those visual elements to really tie it together.

Jennifer Lang: So the caption bubbles, which are in the second book, I would say for me, was, like, you know, straight from graphic memoir and not something I'd ever really tried before. So it was very, very fun. And it's—you know, it's my inner thoughts. So in the first book, in Places We Left Behind, I used strikethrough to relay that information, and I didn't want to do the same thing in the second book. So this was my attempt to just do it a different way.

Jennia: Yeah, interesting. Are there any ideas where you tried using something a little bit different and it didn't really work out and then you had to strikethrough that?

Jennifer Lang: I know I had a Venn diagram in the second book, and then it ended up not making it into the final round, and I loved that Venn diagram. And I found out how to do it on Word, which was so cool. So, but that didn't make it in.

Jennia: Well, do you think there are ever going to be parts of a memoir, or even a novel, where something like this wouldn't work and they'd be better off sticking to that more typical structure?

Jennifer Lang: Yeah. You know, I want to this: Years ago, when text was kind of new in our lives—so 10 years ago—I read [a] YA, young adult, book. I think it's called, Reconstructing Amelia?

Jennia: Oh! Yeah.

Jennifer Lang: I remember the author used text. She was trying—The narrator was trying to understand why—her daughter's life before committing suicide, and put text on the page. And I remember being so wowed by that. So that was a long time ago. I'm going to look up after, like, when that book came out. So I noticed these things in a way of being wowed. I've read a book called—by Nora Krug called Belonging. She's an illustrator. Before anything, she's an illustrator. And every page in the book is like a piece of art and every book feels like it's only been written for you.

Jennia: Oh wow.

Jennifer Lang: And I read this and it was just this feeling of, I want to do something like this. Amy Krouse Rosenthal, if you've ever heard of her, she wrote a column that went viral, I want to say kind of 2017. It was called, "You Might Want to"—"You May Want to Marry My Husband." It was in A Modern Love. I went down a rabbit hole looking at her work because her writing was so incredible and she was one of the most creative writers I've ever known. And I would say if there's anyone I've tried to copy, it's Amy Krause Rosenthal. She's written—She wrote a book called, Encyclopedia of an Ordinary Life. And it's not that the prose is, like—you know, hits you over the head, but the way she wrote it . . . Every page is something different. So I've been on this journey for many years, paying attention, reading, drawn to this more and more, but not everything works.

Jennia: And you bring up a great point, too, about how you don't have to have this graduate-level level vocabulary in order to really resonate with your readers. Because I think we can all look back at books perhaps that we had to read for school that felt heavy handed. Or like we had to almost translate it because the wording was so obscure to us or we couldn't find the meaning in it. Or maybe it just felt like it was too heavily laden with all these five syllable words. And so we lost what we should have gotten out of it from an emotional standpoint.

Jennifer Lang: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, it's—And it can feel forced, just contrived.

Jennia: Yeah, exactly. That's something I wanted to ask, too, about some people who try to incorporate some of these elements where maybe it could read as forced. So do you have any tips on how people can identify when that's happening even as they're doing it?

Jennifer Lang: I mean, I spent decades sharing my work with people. And I think that if anyone has a doubt, you know, ask. Ask for readers. Find a writing group and share your work and get feedback. That said, I would say that these books are the first time—not the text, but what I did to it, after the way I experimented, it's the first time I didn't ask for feedback. And I don't know why. Like, this gut feeling of, "I think I'm on to something." So it just happened. And that's with age and experience.

Jennia: Yeah. So that just shows, too, the importance of trusting yourself and knowing what you're doing. And I think, too, if you're trying something that might be seen as new, or maybe even what some readers won't be ready for, but others will be ready to embrace, and even just recognizing that. Maybe that not every reader is going to get it.

Jennifer Lang: Right. Yeah.

Jennia: Well, do you have any tips on identifying when some of this might feel pretentious or like the author is using it a show off? So, let's say, they do feel quite proud of their skills in poetry and they're looking for reasons to insert something.

Jennifer Lang: I want to say, "Just try it." The worst that can happen is you get a "no," you get a rejection, you get feedback of, "This feels pretentious." Just try. Right? What is the worst that can happen?

Jennia: Yeah. And even if you do get a "no," it's not a "no" forever. Because as we've seen so often, something that people aren't open to then a decade later, two decades later, and now everybody loves it. Maybe now they just needed that moment to acclimate to whatever this changing landscape was with narrative form before they were really ready for it.

Jennifer Lang: Yeah, absolutely.

Jennia: Yeah. That goes back to trusting yourself, too, and even just knowing. But do you think that familiarity with other books that are in your genre or cover a similar topic, do you think that will help authors identify where it might be appropriate or where—not even appropriate, but less well-received by their reader base?

Jennifer Lang: I mean, that's a really interesting question. I don't know if I think that there's one answer. I don't know if it works that way. I just think, read widely. You know, I cited the young adult book, right?

Jennia: Mhm.

Jennifer Lang: Like, it's kind of a little bit everywhere. It's not one size fits all. Nothing about this is one size fits all. It's trial and error and be open to play. Like, I'm 59 and I'm grown up. And I can be very, very, very serious, especially as a parent (Jennia laughs). But I have a really playful side. Like, I love a good laugh, a belly laugh. And I think it's like, if you have that in you, then it's, "Try it." There was something begging for it within me. I think for me, it had to do with stage of life, which is—

Jennia: Ohh.

Jennifer Lang: —midlife, menopausal, wanting freedom, not wanting anyone to tell me what to do. And that's also kind of part of the text—

Jennia: Mmm.

Jennifer Lang: —kind of for the first time in my life, in my own miniature way, rebelling and saying, "I just want to be me." And I think that that's also, like, the text begging for freedom.

Jennia: Yeah, I can see, then, confidence leading to that too. You know, that confidence to embrace these new ideas or these different types of form. And I'm thinking the area I see it the most often in is usually picture books, where they might have, like, a little "Pull here" tab, and you really do pull here, and then a letter comes out or something equally fun. Or they do break that fourth wall and address the reader, which we don't usually see in YA or adult fiction. Things that would have been absurd, and yet they work so well within those stories. Or, like, a friend recently purchased a special edition book, and inside are actual letters to and from the two main characters, but they're real envelopes that you can pull the letters out of and read it. And I think—

Jennifer Lang: Wowww!

Jennia: —Yeah, it's just one of those things. Like, with what you're doing with your memoirs, we can't help but be drawn to something that is new and different and that really doesn't feel like anything we've ever seen before. Because, yeah, look at even the conversations that it brings up or the excitement we have to share this with other people. You know, "You have to see this! Look at what this author has done. This is so neat!"

Jennifer Lang: Well, I just want to say, yes, please! (both laugh)

Jennia: Well, before we end, and I know we've discussed quite a few books already, but do you have any other reading recommendations for listeners?

Jennifer Lang: Okay, so, Maggie Smith, I read it last year, You Could Make This Place Beautiful. It's a memoir, and it's a memoir of marriage, which my first one is very much about my marriage, also. I just read The Lion Women of Tehran. Historical fiction about an Iranian-Jewish narrator. Beautiful. You learn so much about that country that has undergone so much upheaval in the decades from, you know, free and kind of the home of creativity and arts. Beautiful book. I read a book that is called a novel, but it's very much the writer's story called The Postcard by Anne Berest. And it's also a Jewish story, and it's the writer who is a journalist, Anne Berest, who goes down her own rabbit hole. So Anne Berest's daughter came home from school one day and asks her grandmother if she's Jewish. Because in school something happened. And so this little girl is saying to her grandma, you know, "Does that—If you're Jewish, does that mean mommy's Jewish? And does that mean I'm Jewish?" And something like, "And do people hate Jews?" And so it's this whole story about a postcard that the grandmother had received. And Anne Berest, as the daughter, is trying to track down who sent the postcard. But she calls it a novel because she says there's too many things that she had to change to make it.

Jennia: Ohh.

Jennifer Lang: It was very interesting. It's very well done. So it's not a one-size-fits-all. size fits all. It's not—There is no one answer here.

Jennia: Yeah. And—

Jennifer Lang: On any level! I don't read all historical fiction, I don't read all memoir, I don't read all young adult, like, on any level, right? Variety is truly the spice of life—

Jennia: Oh yes!

Jennifer Lang: —And I feel, like, that's what I did. I took a book and I made it different. Not every page. There's a lot of book—a lot of little chapters that are traditional prose. But I did enough to it where I would say, yeah, I shook it up. In the same way I would say, at age 59, I feel restless sometimes and I don't want that feeling of, "Life is just happening"—

Jennia: Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Lang: —And I'm getting older, I want to shake it up. I don't want everything to be the same. I don't want routine every day. So yeah, it's interesting.

Jennia: I think that shaking it up part is so important because there might be so many writers out there who don't think of themselves as writers because they want to tell their story in a certain way. And then when they see that someone else has done it, you've just opened up that possibility for them and they think, "You know what? I can tell a story this way! I can use this in my book," and it helps them really identify with being a writer. Or with being an author, where they may have just thought, "Eh, I don't do it in this way. And so how can I really call myself that?"

Jennifer Lang: Mhm. Neat!

Jennia: Well, thank you again! This has been very fun.

Jennifer Lang: Yeah, thank you for having me!

Jennia: And then thank you for listening, and be sure to check out the show notes for additional information and all of Jennifer's links. And then please join me next week when author Anna Moore will join us to discuss the importance of writing with honesty. Thanks again!