What is a Death Doula?

Death and dying aren’t easy subjects to talk about. In this episode I am talking to an end-of-life doula or a death doula. A death doula is someone who is there to help you emotionally navigate through your own end of life illness or that of a loved one. Nathalie Bonafe is a death doula, who considers her job a privilege to assist family members deal with their complicated emotions and grief surrounding the death of a loved one. 
Hamden Legislative Council at-Large Laurie Sweet was a birth doula and hired Nathalie to help her process her grief and emotions during her mother's fatal illness. Laurie believes Nathalie's support and attention to her emotional well-being was priceless during this difficult time in her life.

Find  out more about Death Doula Nathalie Bonafe :  Nathalie Bonafe is a women's health advocate, coach, death doula at A Gentler Parting LLC

Find out more about Hamden Council at-Large Laurie Sweet: Laurie Sweet | Hamden DTC

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Transcript

Nancy Barrow: 0:01

Hello Connecticut, and welcome to The Paid Leave Podcast. The title basically says it all. I'm Nancy Barrow, and I will be delving into this new state program and how it can help you and your family. This podcast will give you information you should know about Connecticut Paid Leave and maybe just a little bit more. Connecticut Paid Leave brings peace of mind to your home, family and workplace. Welcome to The Paid Leave Podcast. Today's episode should be very interesting. I am talking with a death doula, a term I really hadn't heard of before a few weeks ago, and it really intrigued me. And I had used hospice for both of my parents. Connecticut Paid Leave allows you to take time away from work with up to 12 weeks of income replacement so you can take care of your own serious health needs or that of a loved one. So at the end of life, you can be with a family member, which is really important. Death doulas are described as involved in the before, during and after phases of loss. And I found Natalie BonafeaaNatalie, a death doula who has gotten a lot of press for who she is and how she does this work. Natalie was in the corporate world as a scientist and a death doula, an amazing conversation is going to happen right here. Natalie, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for being here.

Natalie Bonafe: 1:21

Thank you very much for having me. Nancy.

Nancy Barrow: 1:24

Can you tell me when you first heard about a death doula and you decided that's what I want to do.

Natalie Bonafe: 1:29

It was 2015 and I had already separated from the biotech company where I was working and where I reached the glass ceiling in I was in a phase in my life where I wanted to have better control of what the rest of my life was going to be and be more intentional. And when I heard this word, that was it, it was on Facebook from a friend who was taking a training in Guildford, and I contacted the organizer, and I ended up training with her and working with her and training with other people, and that was the beginning of just, it's a way of

Nancy Barrow: 2:08

You heard of a death doula back then? life.

Natalie Bonafe: 2:12

I mean we've all heard of of birth doulas that have been around for about 40 years now. You know, a lot of young couples hire burst doulas, and it has become pretty much mainstream when it comes to end of life. This is very much the same idea of accompaniment, or need for emotional and physical and and spiritual during the end at the end of the spectrum.

Nancy Barrow: 2:39

Why did you choose that? Though? Because I think that is so emotionally hard when you are in someone's very personal journey of death, what made you decide not to be a birth doula, but to be a death doula at the end of life?

Natalie Bonafe: 2:53

I was already a volunteer at Yale New Haven Hospital with people over 65 who needed some support there. And I don't know there is something about the elderly that we think about the elderly, but people, I would say, in vulnerability. I was working on cancer research too, so I've always been, you know, that sort of empath. But I concretized when I started become a volunteer.

Nancy Barrow: 3:18

Also joining in the conversation is the Hampden Democratic Legislative- at- large. And one of Natalie's clients, Laurie Sweet, whose mom was dying, she used Natalie's services to help her navigate the difficulty of losing her mom, which I can totally understand. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Laurie Sweet: 3:35

Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me, Nancy.

Nancy Barrow: 3:37

And thank you for talking about losing your mind. It's a very hard thing to talk about. So tell me how you and Natalie met. How did this combination come to fruition? The interesting thing is, is you were a birth doula, so you may have been a little bit more open to the whole death doula situation. So tell me a little bit about how you guys met.

Laurie Sweet: 3:59

Yeah, so several years ago, there was an open call for people in caring professions, and it was a commission piece for city wide open studios. And I met Natalie, well, met everybody on day one. And at the age, you know, I was in my mid to late 30s, worked really hard to avoid her, yeah, because I thought maybe it was contagious or death would you know, come and visit me if we got close? But we got paired together a lot in the workings of this piece. And so there was definitely something else at hand that kind of brought us together. And I think people enjoyed having the spectrum of we had midwives, we had therapists, nurses, myself at the time wrapping up a seven year career being a birth doula all the way to end of life with Natalie and so we got to know each other over those months working on a piece. I used to do ballet, and I have never been a part of a group that worked so organically as this piece, the choreographer and the playwright would sit with us and ask us for a word to describe how we feel or what it is like to do the work that we do. And the script was made from us, and the movement was made from us, kind of playing around and figuring out how to sort of move through space and move with each other. And it was one of the most beautiful things that I've ever been a part of. But when it ended, that was sort of it. We had a couple reunions. There was a film piece made about this, and so that brought us all back together. And then fast forward to maybe three July's ago, Natalie and I were Facebook friends, and out of the clear blue sky, I just shot her a quick message, and I said, is palliative care, hospice care, because that was what was being discussed for my mom. And she wrote me back immediately, and she just said, call me.

Nancy Barrow: 6:09

From the point on where your mom was in palliative care. Did she assist you emotionally and supportively in any way that you needed it?

Laurie Sweet: 6:19

Yeah so this was a couple months into the pandemic. So this was now the fall my mom was hospitalized. She was recovering from lung cancer and seemingly going through a second bout of cancer with her liver. And so the lung had started to swell and fill with fluid and the liver as well. And so she was in the hospital, and they drained it. And I called Natalie tested for covid, because I did not want to bring covid back to my mom dealing with her second bout of cancer. This was, of course, hard to get testing at that time. So took the test. I had taken them before, and I knew exactly when the local health clinic was going to get back to me. I had my car ready to go. I had my dog ready to go, and as soon as that email came through, I was on the road. I talked to Natalie before I went. And I talked to Natalie a lot during the three weeks that my mom it was a month, so she was in the hospital for a week, and Natalie was instrumental in trying to get me in there. They had just changed their policy so no one could go in and visit, no one could go in and visit. My dad was listed, and my dad was really struggling at the time, and was physically ill over my mom. And so I went every day for a week, dutifully trying to get in there. Escalated to charge nurses, you know, tried to call the head of the hospital. They were like, We understand, but we can't let you in. And so then my mom elected hospice care, and I said, Will you let me in now? Well, we haven't moved her to the end of life part. She's still on the oncology Ward Ward. I'm like, okay, so I took two days to myself, I called Natalie. I said, What do I need? You know, my mom had arranged for hospice to be set up at the house. Being my mother, she had called and got all the furniture ready, everything that she thought she might need, a bed, a wheelchair, a walker, a commode. Everything was about to be delivered, and Natalie walked me through, you know, some just basic Comfort Care things that we might want to do. We ended up putting up a curtain because she was sort of in, like a dining room, living room space. And I just took those two days to kind of mentally prepare for what I knew was coming. The rest of my family was not really accepting what they were seeing and what was going on, and so I tried to convince them to sign a contract with Natalie, and they refused. And so Natalie worked with me informally, but one on one, but remotely, because it was a pandemic, and my mom was in Pennsylvania, so it was a lot of texting and a lot of phone calls, but it felt like she was right there next to me the whole time, and I am eternally grateful for her support. It felt like there was someone walking a couple steps ahead of me in this process, which is what I try to do for my my clients when they're having babies, and just sort of putting down seeds of like, this is what to expect. That's what to expect, being just a couple steps ahead of my mom in the process, but really preparing me to grasp what was going on. And I think the biggest gift, was to take my time that when she died, there was no need to rush. This was not an emergency. We did not need to call everybody and have people rush in. She guided me through giving her a bath, playing soft music, Dimming the lights and it made a very difficult experience really, sort of precious and memorable in a positive way, if that's possible. It was her guidance that really helped me navigate those very, very difficult moments with some information and. Some comfort and just care she cared.

Nancy Barrow: 10:04

And it's interesting that you already had a relationship, so was safe for you. Because, you know, sometimes when a hospice comes into your home, you feel like they're invading your space, definitely. And this is my mother. I'm really protective of her. You know, you don't know her as well as I do. So what are you going to do that I can't do? So how did it differ from a hospice situation with Natalie? What qualities did Natalie have?

Laurie Sweet: 10:31

I found hospice to be great for comfort care. She came home with a drain coming out of her liver, so they were able to kind of guide me through the sort of medical things that were necessary. I was very afraid to ask how much time she had. I had little kids back home, and so I was getting pressure from family members. Oh, maybe you should leave and go back. And so it took me until maybe two days before my mom died, to finally ask that question. And they said, No, don't, don't leave. You should definitely, you know, stick around Natalie. It was really about sort of empowering me to ask those questions. It helped me to navigate for my mom to ask for a team meeting, to ask for things that, as you know, when someone's having a baby for the first time, maybe they don't know that they can ask. So there was tremendous value in that hospice you know, you they're on call. You call them when you need them. We needed them every day, and it was a different person coming every day. And this is one of the beauties of being a birth duel. Is when I attend somebody, I don't leave, there's that consistency, and it's always going to be me, but the hospice nurses were in and out day and night, different person. Our charge nurse changed. Our case manager changed in three weeks. In a very short time, Natalie was consistent, and Natalie would always look after me, and there was no one looking after me. Everybody that was coming in was messing with my mom, you know, let's fix this. Let's adjust that nobody was making sure that I was cared for. And she built me up in a way that I was basically doing overnight care for my mom, sleeping a couple hours during the day, and then dealing with whatever perceived emergency was popping up. But if it weren't for her, I don't know that I could have done that I went into the situation. I didn't know. Usually it's six months to a year is the prognosis when people are in hospice. So I was kind of like, you know, gearing up for this to be a little bit longer. I didn't expect it to be three weeks. But I feel like, if it weren't for Natalie loving me and caring for me when no one else could. My dad was in his grief. My brother was in his grief. My husband was taking care of three animals and two children. Couldn't really be there in that way. I don't know that I would have had the strength.

Nancy Barrow: 12:55

How did you know what she needed? How did you know what Laurie needed? Because I think there's an intuitiveness right that that you would have to have, and is it easy for you to read the room, so to speak?

Natalie Bonafe: 13:10

Well, I think that's why I do what I do, because I'm able to combine and the analytical which I'm used to from my training and experience in biomedical research for 25 years, but also the reason why I ended up leaving that space is that I wanted to be kind, and there was that part of me that I could not fully express. The competition is very good, but the kindness I was missing, it is because of who I am, so being empathetic, but also setting boundaries. I think this is a media where I really excel, because I can see the details, I can shape I can put them in perspective. I can classify them in my head or on paper, and I can also touch the saw of the person, and it's very intimate, and I think that's what I was missing. It's intimacy while not being intrusive, and it's just very deep, and it complements everything that I do.

Nancy Barrow: 14:20

I think when people hear death doula it's almost alarming, you know, for the average human being to talk about death I know that when you're in a situation when a parent is dying, or someone that you love is dying, you will come into play, but you also have offered different services.

Natalie Bonafe: 14:38

Yes, I personally, I mean, you'll see as many death doulas as they are. You know their services generally complement. You know who they are as people. Personally, I think I'm finding myself in a space before death, before enduring. So. And also after in terms of, you know, support with grief, support the doula way, not the therapeutic way. So it's very complementary to what psychologists, you know, do, social workers would do?

Nancy Barrow: 15:17

Do you work in tandem with hospice?

Natalie Bonafe: 15:19

I can, yeah, I've been a volunteer for I had been a volunteer for five years with hospice, so I work very well with them, and you can see that they are bringing, you know, at the time, when I started in 2016 I was probably the first doula there, and I was just a hospice volunteer with the hospice rules. But the things are evolving now. They are more integrated still as volunteers, but a little bit more doula type. I totally work hand on hand with nurses and social workers, essentially. And this is just one of the best teams I've worked with when they when they accept me, yeah, right, when they when I was they knew. I mean, we hugged, we talked as as a professional doula. I love working with them. And I was recently working with a family where hospice was coming. I was guiding also the daughter and and the patient, the mother, but I was just complimenting. I was just there to compliment, but I would never overstep. You know, their boundaries, they did very good at what they do, and they're not going to feed the family like I would make a huge bowl of soup that I would bring from home. So I would know that the four children you know, would have something to eat that is not something that is being done by hospice? No, of course not. And that's, that's what's really interesting friend. It's more like a professional friend. I would say, this is how I mean, same thing I would do with my family, or I do with my family. This is the social this is what we used to have in the community. This is, you know, the neighbor or the or the best friend or the cousin who would come, this is what the word doula does, because that's, that's that nurturing. But yet, I don't replace hospice. I don't replace the the CNA, who was, you know, who would do the toilet I would, yes, I can, but I don't do anything medical. I don't give morphine, right? If, if it's a family, if there is no family, you know, I would work with the hospice nurse. If it's family, I would just be there and encourage the children or the companions to give morphine. But this is not, this is hands on, but this is not that hands on, and it's it's more for coaching. I mean, it's not therapeutic. And I tend to work with women more.

Nancy Barrow: 18:10

Becasue they're probably more open to it, especially because if they're open to birth doulas.

Natalie Bonafe: 18:15

Exactly, I see younger men contacting me for their parents, the older generations have a harder time as men, but I think it's coming. I think the next generation, you know, Laura's generation is, is getting open to it, and it's fabulous because they say, Oh yeah, my wife had had a birth doula. We had a birth doula. Our family had a birth doula. And I'd like to, you know, offer that, whether the parents, you know, want that or not, it's but at least I'm seeing some changes.

Nancy Barrow: 18:47

And when do you start to get your death plan? Like, when do you talk about that? I mean, Lori, now that you had Natalie with aiding you with the whole process with your mother, do you feel that you were thinking about your own death and how you wanted to see that go, and did you talk to Natalie about that?

Laurie Sweet: 19:09

Definately. So in terms of hiring, I would say the same about hiring when you're pregnant as soon as possible, because I believe your contract is just for whatever time people need you. And having been a birth doula, you're sort of on call, right? So those phone calls, I didn't call you in the middle of the night, but I know I could have.

Natalie Bonafe: 19:31

Yeah but we didn't. We don't know about death. I mean, right, no, we can't plan that. It's, it's true, you know, it's supposed to be, you know, yeah, there is. How long? How long are you and ah.

Laurie Sweet: 19:44

But as soon as I feel, like as soon as you have a sort of diagnosis, or if you know that someone's going to be terminal, bringing in a death doula can be very helpful. So my mom died when I was 40, and I actually hired Natalie right after that to get the ball rolling on what I would want. Not. And I think just making that call to her, making that request, felt like a Herculean effort. So the first meeting was, you know, very chill, and here's some documents, but I think if we didn't have the next two sessions scheduled, I probably wouldn't have done the work because it was so uncomfortable. But she's like, Okay, I'm gonna give you three weeks and and if you don't do it, it's okay, but I'd love for you to come back to me with these documents that you've discussed with your husband, and then we're gonna talk about them. And in that frame of mind of grief, I was trying to think, what would I want different for myself when I'm dying? What do I want to leave for my children? Natalie and I talked a lot about legacy, like, what is it that you want to be remembered for? Right? We have our tombstones. It's our birth date and our death date. But it's that in between, what is it that you want to do with your life? What do you want to teach your children? It became this huge conversation that got beyond a living will, but we did also do a living will, down to music. What I want done with my body. I want to be a tree. I know that that's not legal yet in Connecticut. I hope, when that's my time, that that could be something. I've had that conversation with my dad and my brother and my husband, and it's brought me a tremendous amount of peace. But if we didn't have that relationship and that trust, I don't think I would have had the comfort to really dig deep into what is just, you know, fresh and raw and painful coming out of having helped my mom and without any sort of directives, just hoping we were getting it right, getting the spirit right, getting the music right, getting the funeral right, getting the guests right. It was a pandemic, so we had to limit the number of people who could be there, that kind of stuff. But it got me thinking, what is it that I want? And I reached out to Natalie, and we were able to complete that, and it felt really good. Now it's taken me two years to have that conversation with my dad, but now we're talking about what he would want. What do you value, Dad? Do you want to be at home? Do you want extraordinary measures? And I come to find out he has a living will. So it's open conversations that.

Natalie Bonafi: 22:17

It takes time. It takes time. It takes time. That's why the earlier we have the earliest we have the conversation, the more you know, joyful the process of living, living and planning and legacy becomes.

Nancy Barrow: 22:37

So Laurie, what surprised you during that really rough time with watching your mom in leaving.

Laurie Sweet: 22:42

Yeah, so my mom asked me several times, what is it going to be like? And I said, Well, Mom, if you are having a baby, I could definitely tell you what I think it's going to be like, but I don't know, because I've never died before, but let me call my friend and get back to you. So I called Natalie, and she said, Well, what are her goals? What did she tell hospice her goals were? I said she wants to be pain free. And so she said, You tell her that it's going to be pain free and you're going to make sure of that, and you tell her that you're going to be with her and that you're not going to leave her side, and that you love her, and it's going to be okay, and we're all going to be okay. And Natalie helped us have those conversations. I mean, my mom was hanging on because she needed my dad to tell her it was okay to go. And Natalie helped us facilitate that conversation, and my dad resisted, and he said, I'm not going to be okay. And I was like, nope, back that train, back up. You're going to be okay. I'm going to make sure you're OK. But she really needs to hear this. We had a priest come in. We did last rites. This was all Natalie's advice. What would your mom want? Because at that point she wasn't really consciously with us. So it was a very I think the strangest thing, or most surprising thing, was just sort of the role reversal, where my mom was looking for me for advice and direction, and I felt very powerless. But after I talked to Natalie, there were things that were in my control that I could definitively say, these are things that are going to happen for you, and also reassure her. She was telling me she was seeing her brother. She was seeing her favorite dog who had passed. Her brother had also passed. And Natalie said, You acknowledge those you're not going to fight her and say she isn't seeing those things. You say, yep, what do they look like? What are they saying to you? And and it having this person be there, not even physically, just by phone, just gave me so much peace around the process as it was unfolding, and it gave me the ability, as Natalie was saying, For me to be present with my mom. Mom, I didn't want to lie, right? You don't want to lie to someone who's dying. So I gave her promises that I knew that I could keep. And yeah, it was a, it was a role reversal, and Natalie encouraged me. You know, overnights is when we had most of our conversations. They were usually very brief, with my mom and I, because I was taking care of her overnight. During the day, it was sort of chaotic. And she's like, tell her you love her. Thank her for being your mom. Tell her whatever it is that you need to tell her, because you don't know, you don't know how long they're going to be conscious. And I think my mom could still hear at the end, but it was, it was such a gift to have her sort of by my side, even though she was, you know, hundreds of miles away.

Nancy Barrow: 25:40

So the word doula, you said, was a Greek word. It is. And what does doula mean?

Laurie Sweet: 25:46

I think traditionally it means with woman, with women, it's something that was common in antiquity, and it was often, usually a woman helping another woman in a time of transition. So we've adapted it to end of life, beginning of life, but it's anybody, I think, who's helping somebody. And as Natalie alluded to, we've lost those, you know, big families where there's aunties and uncles and grand you know, everybody lives all over the place now, and so I do think this is a very liminal role. It's very temporary. You come in, you have a job, you fill in some cracks that hospice can't do. You feel the gaps, and then you're available. She was available to me as much as I needed. Afterwards, we would take walks. I would call her if I was angry, and she's like, Nope, you honor that anger. You're anger, angry about something like, let's get to that. That's your body, you know, signaling, because I was going through all these emotions. I'm like, Well, I don't even recognize myself right now. She's like, this is normal.

Nancy Barrow: 26:49

So for Connecticut Paid Leave, we give income replacement to take time off from work to care for your own serious health issue or illness or that of a loved one as a caregiver. Do you think that some of the people that you help can benefit from this program?

Natalie Bonafe: 27:07

Absolutely. 200% sure. Yeah, there are so many reasons. I mean, take that mother who just lost her child. I um.

Nancy Barrow: 27:22

I can't imagine going back to work.

Natalie Bonafi: 27:23

She went back to work three days later. No, no, actually, no, not three days later. She was saying she took they buried her a week later, and she took a week off, and she went back to work.

Nancy Barrow: 27:40

Yeah we give up to 12 weeks of income replacement. If you're taking care of a loved one, like a parent dying, or a parent who has any kind of dementia, things like that.

Natalie Bonafi: 27:50

Exactly this is so I mean, I've had them, and I've had people who have said, I can't work with you because I'm juggling my mom and with dementia at home and my job and my child and and if that person, for instance, I'm thinking about one person in particular, I'd said, you know, I'm going to take a break from work so I can put my affairs in order and work with you just a little bit. So there would not have been a money issue. There was not, I would not have had, which is not, you know, breaking, you don't break the bank with me, and which is also good in terms of time she and she would have been able to to heal herself, right? And to be really there, you know, prepared for her mom.

Nancy Barrow: 28:38

I know I can't imagine you not being able to take time away from work and traveling to see your mom.

Natalie Bonafe: 28:44

Yeah, there was nothing that could keep me from getting in that car. I think I left the dogs, like, heart meds behind, and my husband called me in Milford and was like, the dogs meds are behind. I'm like, you're gonna need to ship those because I got the green light. I don't have covid. She's in the hospital, and I'm going, there was nothing that was going to stop me from being there and having family members that were in denial, thinking back to like, the death doula comment, I think that's accepting, that that's what's going to happen, is that there's going to be a death at the end. They were not accepting. She called me and she said, I'm dying, and I need you to get your brother and your dad on board with what's happening. So if I couldn't just I was lucky. I was lucky that I could do my work remotely. I was a treasurer for a state Senate campaign. At the time, we had a deputy treasurer who had to step in and fill out all the paperwork for me, because I couldn't. I just wasn't in a headspace where I could be crunching numbers, right? And the candidate, Justin farmer was wonderful about that, and was like, we're not going to bother you while you were there, doing what you need. You reach out if you need us. But you know, most people are not in a position to drop everything and run. I have a wonderful partner. My kids go to school where he teaches, so they just got. Up, they went and did their thing. Came home, I came home, the house was a disaster. There were Legos everywhere. But hey, everybody lived and survived. And so it took us a couple months to do that, but we were not survival mode and something like paid leave. What? I mean, it's just a tremendous benefit for people to have those 12 weeks where they are not stressing about getting to their job. I mean, let's be honest, we would I wasn't thinking about all my different commitments when I was in Pennsylvania. Yeah, it was a luxury to be able to focus on her any time.

Nancy Barrow: 30:30

And you don't have to take the 12 weeks all at once. There's intermittent leave and reduced schedule leave so you can actually work like half a day if you if you live closer.

Natalie Bonafi: 30:39

This is so wonderful. We do not need more financial stress.

Nancy Barrow: 30:45

You shouldn't worry about your job when you are there with your mother for precious three weeks, seeing to her and tending to her very serious illness and her end of life. And so I feel like it's a compassionate bill that our governor Ned Lamont signed in 2019 so.

Natalie Bonafe: 31:04

Yeah, I was actually talking to my niece who is in social services in France, and she said, Oh, yeah, we've had that. I said, Yes, I know this is such a privilege, you know, to be able to to have it this in this state, you don't realize how good you've had it.

Nancy Barrow: 31:20

Yeah, it's true. We don't have a national program yet. We're working on that.

Natalie Bonafi: 31:26

Yeah, but this is wonderful. It's here, yeah, and let's make sure that people know about it. It's, it's, it's fairly new.

Nancy Barrow: 31:34

But I do think it can help people like in Laurie's situation, you know, they don't have a really good boss, or if they have three part time jobs.

Natalie Bonafe: 31:44

A person with, with, with breast cancer, any, I mean, I don't necessarily work, which could be prostate, it could be anything going through, you know, really a difficult time, and they need to heal before going back into the workforce and and that's possible now. Yes, really great.

Nancy Barrow: 32:02

Natalie, if someone wants to talk to you, how can they get in touch with you?

Natalie Bonafe: 32:06

Oh they can just google me or Bing me. Natalie bonafeh, the name of my end of life. Business is gentlerparting.com.

Nancy Barrow: 32:17

A gentler parting.com.

Natalie Bonafe: 32:19

I also if they Google me, they also find my menopause support website, but the number and the number is the same, okay, so they can just call me or connect with me either way.

Nancy Barrow: 32:32

And Laurie, you know, you're just amazing, and you're in politics, so if people want to get a hold of you, you're pretty easy to find.

Laurie Sweet: 32:39

I'm very easy to find. If you go to hampden.com and you go to the Legislative Council page, you'll find my name. I'm one of the at large reps. So you can give me a call or send me an email and be happy to talk to anybody about this or other topics.

Nancy Barrow: 32:51

That's awesome. I want to thank Natalie bonafie and Laurie sweet for joining me today on this very interesting podcast. Thank you for educating me and subscribers about your work. I think it was really wonderful. Thank you so much both for coming on to this podcast.

Natalie Bonafi: 33:07

Thank you very much for the invite. Nancy.

Laurie Sweet: 33:09

Thank you.

Nancy Barrow: 33:10

To find out more or to apply for benefits, go to ctpaidleave.org. This has been another edition of The Paid Leave Podcast. Please like and subscribe so you'll be notified about new podcasts that become available. Connecticut Paid Leave is a public act with a personal purpose. I'm Nancy Barrow, and thanks for listening.