Did NASA Miss This? How Artists Are Starting to Unlock Space Travel’s Future

🎙 Guest: Dr. Claudia Schnugg, Curator of the Universe Pavilion at the Venice Biennale & Art-Science Visionary

The Cosmic Scoop:

What if art could transform how we design habitats beyond Earth—and inspire new ways to live here at home? Dr. Claudia Schnugg is making this vision a reality. As curator of the groundbreaking Universe Pavilion at the prestigious 2025 Venice Architecture Biennale, she merges indigenous wisdom, aesthetic dialogue, and rigorous science to reshape how we think about shelter, community, and our cosmic future.

In this episode, Claudia guides us from pioneering Austrian yeast experiments in circular life support systems to ancient Aboriginal star maps navigating by dark patches in the Milky Way.

Quotable Insights:

💡 “Experience can reveal what expertise alone can’t. That’s where artists make the invisible visible.”
 💡 “To shelter in space isn’t just about engineering—it’s about redefining what it means to be at home.”
 💡 “Bringing artists into science labs isn’t a luxury. It’s a necessity for asking better questions.”

Cosmic Timestamps:

⏳ [00:01:15] What is the Universe Pavilion? Art in the heart of the Venice Biennale
⏳ [00:03:00] Challenging the nation-state model in architecture through cosmic discourse
⏳ [00:06:00] A new renaissance? Why space and AI demand new aesthetic reflection
⏳ [00:09:15] STEAM over STEM: Claudia makes the case for creative collaboration
⏳ [00:16:10] Artists asking naive questions—and pushing science to unexpected breakthroughs
⏳ [00:24:00] Yeast, sourdough & space: An artistic experiment leads to biotech insights
⏳ [00:29:30] Life support systems as metaphor and method
⏳ [00:43:50] Indigenous sky knowledge and sheltering beyond architecture
⏳ [00:50:30] Symbiosis vs. exploitation: What culture are we exporting to space?
⏳ [01:00:40] The Venus Conversation: A 10-year art-science journey across missions
⏳ [01:03:10] Claudia’s music pick: “Dressed for Space” by Trouble Andrew
⏳ [01:04:32] Espresso for the Mind: Ted Chiang’s “The Great Silence”

To Explore:

1. 🔗 Venice Biennale – Architecture 2025 
2. 🔗 ESA Arts Initiatives 
3. 🔗 Claudia Schnugg's Research & Projects 
4. 🔗 Ted Chiang – “The Great Silence” 
5. 🔗 Dressed for Space – Trouble Andrew (Spotify)

📩 Subscribe to the Space Café Podcast Substack
🔗 Connect with Markus on LinkedIn

You can find us on Spotify and Apple Podcast!

Please visit us at SpaceWatch.Global, subscribe to our newsletters. Follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter!

Transcript

SCP_129_Claudia_Schnugg_Master
===

[00:00:00] Claudia: And then suddenly it was more and more interesting. And, uh, as far as I understood, they, even planned to do some more experiments and even write a paper about it. 

[00:00:08] Markus: Hmm. Really

[00:00:09] Claudia: really [00:00:10] very successful.

[00:00:11] Markus: Hello everyone. This is the Space Cafe podcast and on Marcus. So I'd like to invite you to join me on a [00:00:20] slightly different trajectory today. Let's take a different exit than the ones you were expecting. I'd like to talk today about the. [00:00:30] Um, reintegration of art in space exploration. I don't know about you, but I can still remember in the seventies and the [00:00:40] eighties especially triggered by Carl Sagan when Art helped us get inspired or inspire imagination when it comes to those.[00:00:50] 

[00:00:50] Markus: Alien worlds out there. That was a fantastic moment in time. But this, the peak of all this certainly sort of [00:01:00] waned into oblivion and in the past couple of years we sort of lost our understanding how important art in space exploration actually is. It's not [00:01:10] just a nice to have, it's an incremental and, um, important.

[00:01:18] Markus: Part of space [00:01:20] exploration without which space exploration would not be where it is right now. This is important to understand and we will see a couple of examples today where [00:01:30] art actually triggered scientific progress. That's super interesting to see. So, and therefore I have, um, Claudia Schnuck, um, with [00:01:40] me as a guest today at the Space.

[00:01:43] Markus: Cafe Podcast. Claudia is the curator of the universe Pavilion at this [00:01:50] year's, um, art and Architecture Biennale in Venice, in Italy. Think of this Biennale as the Oscars for art and architecture. [00:02:00] So. You would want to be there if you wanted the world to know. So this is the epitome of all the places. And we have one [00:02:10] of the major curators here on the show.

[00:02:13] Markus: And, uh, we're gonna be talking about, um, art, um, we're gonna be talking [00:02:20] about, for example, I love this story. I love it. Um. Indigenous knowledge, especially Aboriginal understanding of [00:02:30] the night skies. This is so fascinating. Um, I don't know about you, but I heard only very recently that indigenous people in [00:02:40] Australia would look at the night sky quite differently.

[00:02:42] Markus: Not, not. The way we do, um, by looking at stars and the objects up there. But these [00:02:50] indigenous folks would look at the night sky at the spaces between the objects and give them names. So this is quite the opposite of what, what [00:03:00] I'm used to, but it makes absolute sense 

[00:03:02] Markus: Super interesting. So without further ado, my friends, uh, let's welcome Claudia Schnook to the Space Cafe Podcast [00:03:10] and make yourselves comfortable wherever you are. Let's go.

[00:03:15] Markus: They say that, um, Biennale in Venice is [00:03:20] all you would ever want in the art world, in the architecture world. So this is like the top

[00:03:29] Claudia: This is super [00:03:30] exciting. Yes. 

[00:03:31] Claudia: yes. um and so bringing this new Dimension of the universe into this big place where there's a lot of [00:03:40] nations who have pavilions, architectural pavilions this year, next year, again, art pavilions, Um is super exciting. And uh, [00:03:50] it's also something that I think most nations value.

[00:03:54] Markus: Most and put a lot of money into bringing their artists and [00:04:00] architects to Venice. 

[00:04:01] What's your favorite. Intervention example in science, in space, maybe. Perhaps there's something from 

[00:04:09] Claudia: Oh 

[00:04:09] Markus: [00:04:10] the pavilion. The pavilion. You're planning?

[00:04:13] Claudia: So, uh, there there's quite a lot of, uh, very exciting projects, [00:04:20] um, uh, just going back to the visual data, maybe, uh, this is still outside of the pavilion and then I make another [00:04:30] example from the pavilion, um, is, uh, now I'm going to microbiology. Um, It's a question of how to deal with, um, [00:04:40] um, microscopic images, imagery.

[00:04:43] Claudia: Uh, So scientists learn to read their um, microscopic images and [00:04:50] how to, to, to immediately see what is right or what is wrong. Is it a good picture? Is it, is it something, know something went wrong in the, um, [00:05:00] in the, uh, experiments or in the actual, um, process of the microscopy. But then on the other hand, [00:05:10] scientists, um, also tends to take over, uh, those, um, Imaginary colors, uh, produced with [00:05:20] microscopic imagery or with the models that they're trained with in the textbooks. So, uh, just recently an artist I'm working with, um asked the scientists [00:05:30] to do some kind of a Meditation on how a cell looks like from the inside. And they started to apologize to the artist again and again because they said, [00:05:40] oh, it looks like this and that color.

[00:05:42] Claudia: And then they reflected on, they said, oh, it's actually the color I'm trained with because I am so familiar with this Animation from the [00:05:50] textbook. And then the artist asked, uh, what is it in between? What does it mean in between? What is the actual sizes? [00:06:00] Uh, and, and how would you translate it into something, uh, that you can sculpt physically in a bigger Dimension And suddenly [00:06:10] there were. super insecure because they did not know how the actual connections looked like. And translating it to a [00:06:20] bigger, um, sculptural object seemed very weird to them because suddenly it did not have the same impression that they had in their [00:06:30] minds, uh, from their own scientific training when they saw it in, in, in, in a physical, uh, representation.

[00:06:38] Claudia: So it was a very big learning [00:06:40] effect for them, but also a reflection for them on what they are actually missing from the model because they understood the model that they trained with the [00:06:50] computer animation that they know as something that is the full thing of this DNA

[00:06:57] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:58] Claudia: but in the end it was not [00:07:00] because they could not tell you all the details how to actually physically build it.

[00:07:05] Claudia: And they were aware of how many open questions uh, they're still [00:07:10] working on. And they are aware of that scientifically and in when you ask them, theoretically they are aware of, but as soon as you translate it to something physical and you want to [00:07:20] talk about it, there are so many gaps.

[00:07:22] Claudia: And this is something that I find very interesting in terms of, um, scientific process and self-awareness, um, [00:07:30] uh, refractive processes. Um, that you, although you are an expert on something, um you might not really [00:07:40] understand it in the way that you think you understand it.

[00:07:43] Markus: And to, its, to its fullest extent because you have a course, if you [00:07:50] look at it from your scientific lens. You see through a scientific lens and there's guardrails, there's left and right, a very limited, limited, [00:08:00] um, spectrum. You are able to see within that spectrum you may be the best expert in the world, [00:08:10] but how, but how far you are pushing the limits of that spectrum left and right.

[00:08:15] Markus: This is then up to the imagination of the scientist or [00:08:20] the introduction of additional spectrum, breaking knowledge from the outside.

[00:08:27] Claudia: Exactly. And that's where you have [00:08:30] this kind of, uh, other perspective coming in or other medium coming in, the, the aesthetic knowledge, uh, versus [00:08:40] translation to another medium, where you suddenly are confronted with your own, with your own, uh, scientific subject matter in a completely different way. [00:08:50] And suddenly you learn something, you see something new, uh, or you, uh, have new questions yourself or you get aware of what's still an open [00:09:00] question.

[00:09:00] Claudia: And this is the, this is the magic of STEAM,

[00:09:03] Markus: I think there's a, a, a good analogy to all this is how we imagine ancient [00:09:10] architecture to have looked like an ancient sculpture. Um, we imagine it to be white, white marble. And we imagined the temples to be white, but they [00:09:20] were just not, they were colorful and painted. And, um, to be honest, I prefer the white versions that we, we, we have traded [00:09:30] down in history because I love the aesthetics, but in fact the Romans and the Greeks were very colorful.

[00:09:37] Markus: Um,

[00:09:38] Claudia: but there's weather, there's [00:09:40] sun, there is the sun bleaches it, and there is a lot of rain. And then there is the wink with the sand and it 

[00:09:46] Markus: washed off, washed off this cultural [00:09:50] moment, but this is, this is exactly what you are referring to. I think that without that knowledge from art history, we [00:10:00] would think that the ancients had that pure white sci-fi aesthetic of architecture and sculpture.

[00:10:08] Claudia: yes. And but it, it was [00:10:10] not like that. And I think this is the beauty of this kind of media reality, translating it to a Medium from, from sculpture to painting, to [00:10:20] drawing to Video, Then you have, uh, yeah, this different experience. And [00:10:30] although we think we know something, uh, experience really, uh, a full.

[00:10:35] Claudia: Full sensory experience really helps us also to make sense of something in a [00:10:40] different way. 

[00:10:41] Markus: Fantastic. I love your examples. Do you, do you have more example like the color one That was really good. The color example was really good,

[00:10:48] Claudia: Um, I have, [00:10:50] yeah. maybe one other example from, uh, I have many examples because I did a lot of research on what it does between art and science. Even artists [00:11:00] comes into a scientific laboratory, uh, and does something with, uh, the scientist. So there's this, dimension of [00:11:10] making sense of your own subject matter.

[00:11:12] Claudia: But then there is also a question about, uh. aesthetic representation and, and communication. There is, there's a [00:11:20] lot about creativity that we could talk about or about. networking, uh, connecting to different labs and disciplines that you work would not be aware of, [00:11:30] that they're somehow relevant for your own work. Um, so for example, another artist I've been working with, uh, she connected, [00:11:40] um, oh no, Maybe also it's, it's a little bit of a networking, but it also is about a new research question. So, uh, she worked, uh, it's [00:11:50] again, microbiology. She worked with, um an epigenetics institute and, uh, in epigenetics they tried to, uh, [00:12:00] understand how to create in this lab toti potent cells, uh, from other cells.

[00:12:06] Claudia: So not only stem cells that can then become anything [00:12:10] else, but also stem cells that could potentially become a Placenta So also Origin of new life. And, uh, as they've been specifically [00:12:20] working with one Transformation uh, the artist was very inspired by what they've been doing. And she also did some vet work, uh, lab work herself.

[00:12:29] Claudia: [00:12:30] And then she came with this very Maybe naive question of, could you actually go back and forth and back and forth again [00:12:40] and again?

[00:12:40] Claudia: So could you make a, uh, skin cell? A stem cell, and then a heart cell, and then again a stem cell, and and a liver cell, and, and so on and so [00:12:50] forth. And how often can you do this transformation? And the scientists were like, oh, we don't know, because actually

[00:12:56] Markus: no one has ever

[00:12:57] Claudia: no one, no one has ever asked. And [00:13:00] you have, You have to see each lab has another specialty, so this lab works with liver cells, this work labs uh, works with with heart cells, this work [00:13:10] lab is specialized on on neurons, so nobody ever thought of mixing all this and it was actually a I think [00:13:20] nearly two year process that they could realize this project where they transferred one batch of cells into four different cells and always back to, uh, stem [00:13:30] cells. First they thought the, um, uh, found cell memory. Uh, they did not because it was just a faulty translation or, uh, some [00:13:40] missing steps, uh, in the protocols that they got from another lab.

[00:13:43] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:44] Claudia: Because you, you suddenly also get a way of who has which, um, uh, [00:13:50] yeah, crafts knowledge or embedded knowledge.

[00:13:53] Claudia: Because for example, in this other group that worked with liver, liver cells, they had a completely different approach to the Transformation. [00:14:00] process. And, but they did not write everything in the protocol because it was just a no brainer for them. Uh, but it would, it would not work in another, [00:14:10] uh, lab, because they had another process and they filled in the gaps with their own process. So it never this, this full translation back or full, um, [00:14:20] reversion from the neurons to the stem cells would not work again. And they thought, Oh, maybe this cell memory or they, they grew the cells too long and they were too adult.

[00:14:29] Claudia: But [00:14:30] actually this was not a problem. It was the problem that. there were these, um

[00:14:34] Claudia: divergences in, in, in the process, in the protocol. mm-hmm. And

[00:14:38] Claudia: um the [00:14:40] scientists, um are very excited about. That it worked out in the end and, but then they think, oh, they could do a lot of really interesting science with it, [00:14:50] but they would need actually at least, uh, a consortium of labs and a multi-year project to do all the research. But just becoming aware [00:15:00] of such a question from such a naive request from the artist for, for her artwork, uh, I find very, very inspiring. um

[00:15:08] Claudia: and, 

[00:15:09] Markus: [00:15:10] mm-hmm.

[00:15:10] Claudia: Uh, and, and this is, this is one of these, uh, also question of becoming aware of what you can do or you can't do, but also connecting to [00:15:20] labs or other labs that you would not connect to otherwise.

[00:15:23] Claudia: And also learning about these discrepancies in, in what you're actually doing, although [00:15:30] your work is so

[00:15:30] Markus: close,

[00:15:31] Claudia: Um, so I think there's a lot for the scientists to learn.

[00:15:35] Markus: so, so, so all in all, I think it's all about not force for [00:15:40] an artist, not forcing oneself into something, but to help widen the spectrum of understanding

[00:15:47] Claudia: Exactly. Exactly. And this is also [00:15:50] why every single collaboration between an artist and scientist is different. So I cannot say that there's always this aesthetic awareness, there's always the new [00:16:00] connection to other people. There's always a new creative question. Uh, there's always maybe one thing that is, is always there in this [00:16:10] kind of this liminal space that makes it exciting for the artist and the scientists because they are, it's also a little bit of a, a, a, [00:16:20] a, an empty space for the scientist to experiment with something that they would not experiment with if, um if they would only work [00:16:30] in their organizational structures and within their scientific routines.

[00:16:33] Claudia: Because you can do something new and you are not bound to other, uh, [00:16:40] yeah. You do not have to tell your Lab, Boss, I do this experiment because I find it interesting, uh, although it does [00:16:50] not have any theoretical footing. I do this experiment 'cause I find it interesting and the artist ask, ask me to, so it's some kind of little bit of freedom

[00:16:58] Claudia: to do this.

[00:16:59] Claudia: [00:17:00] And, um, it's also, this is something that's very important these days too, uh, if we think of scientific careers and how, uh, intense, um, [00:17:10] this work is, um, How intense you need to publish, find new funding for new projects, and so on and so forth. So having this little bit of freedom is [00:17:20] also very important. And yeah.

[00:17:23] Claudia: This actually Also brings me to one of the examples, uh, from the Pavilion. Mm-hmm. [00:17:30] So, um with the, um, with a consortium here in Vienna, um with, um uh, ASIP, the Austrian Center for Industrial [00:17:40] Biotechnology, the Boer University, the and the University of Vienna Uh, even a residency program with one artist, Christina Kova, uh, [00:17:50] on the role of yeast, or the potential role of yeast for a circular system, uh, which could become a life support system. And, [00:18:00] uh, the artist, uh, had a lot of ideas and, um she's, uh, doing her research in the labs about what they're doing, what yeast. [00:18:10] So for example, how they produced a yeast that can, uh, immediately convert CO2 mm-hmm.

[00:18:17] Claudia: Into other components. Um, um, [00:18:20] CO2, that can, uh, create PLA 

[00:18:22] Markus: Hmm.

[00:18:23] Claudia: uh, for example for 3D printing. um or how to [00:18:30] produce different nutrients with, uh, yeast.

[00:18:32] Claudia: So you, you have all these different components, how to produce oxygen with yeast. Uh, but then she also, [00:18:40] worked with another lab about how to then, um, reuse waste, uh, through steam gasification and other processes, for example, and [00:18:50] with, a, um, a computational modeling group. Mm-hmm. Uh, and she asked all these different questions.

[00:18:57] Claudia: Also, uh, should we only think [00:19:00] of yeast or different kind of microbes? Because, uh, setting up only for one microbe might be Yeah, that you set yourself up to failure [00:19:10] because, uh, an ecosystem is not, is never only one microbe and, and things like that. So, uh, she started to do a sourdough [00:19:20] experiment with a lot of the groups and the groups were not 

[00:19:23] Markus: in Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:23] Claudia: why should we work with sourdough?

[00:19:25] Claudia: It's somehow filthy. in terms of an Experiment, uh, [00:19:30] idea, um, it, it's, it's nothing that we, you can do a really good, um, can get really good data off, but, um, but let's do it [00:19:40] because the artist asked us to do it. In the end, uh, the scientists were very happy with this Experiment, because they saw that, um, different microbes, [00:19:50] um, that they chose could survive in the very basic sourdough, um, that they did not know that they would survive. Uh, and they also think that in terms of [00:20:00] future of research, this might be something very interesting because it, uh, or also industrial production, because you might be able to reduce, [00:20:10] uh, certain amount of, uh, Bio-Mass Waste,

[00:20:13] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:14] Claudia: uh, if you scale it up. So, I think this is, this is a very interesting, uh, [00:20:20] example that an artist asked something to do, um, and the scientist then that, Oh, it's not so interesting scientifically.

[00:20:28] Claudia: And then suddenly it was [00:20:30] more and more interesting. And, uh, as far as I understood, they, even planned to do some more experiments and even write a paper about it.

[00:20:37] Markus: Hmm. Really

[00:20:38] Claudia: really very successful. 

[00:20:39] Markus: [00:20:40] How does, how does science react to something or to, to all this? Are they hesitant to open up or what is the [00:20:50] reception,

[00:20:51] Claudia: I think the key is experience. So um, art, uh, scientists, uh, who [00:21:00] have experienced, um, such a collaboration before, They are very open and they also try to push. Other artists, uh, [00:21:10] other artists, other scientists,

[00:21:11] Claudia: Sorry. 

[00:21:12] Markus: It's so good.

[00:21:14] Claudia: it's mixing

[00:21:14] Claudia: up. 

[00:21:15] Markus: This is what we want. Right? This is, you're already anticipating the future. [00:21:20] You're mixing the two disciplines.

[00:21:22] Claudia: um, other scientists or their PhD students to engage with artists because they know that it's very [00:21:30] beneficial to their process.

[00:21:31] Claudia: It's, uh, refreshing. It gives them. Space for thought experiments, uh, helps them to explain things differently and so on [00:21:40] to forth. so it's it's way beyond this typical idea of science communication or visualization. 

[00:21:45] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:46] Claudia: Um, other scientist [00:21:50] are a little bit more hesitant because they feel it's still a little bit of a waste of time On energy.

[00:21:57] Claudia: Um, so this is Also something, [00:22:00] um, that's based in this typical structure of, uh, flab routines and the pressure scientists experience specifically until they have [00:22:10] Tenure uh, that they fear a bit, that they get sidetracked.

[00:22:15] Claudia: Uh, some of them even told me that they, um, a lot of [00:22:20] discussions with artists also imply, um. maybe some philosophical discussions and some scientists tell me that when that they're, [00:22:30] for example, the supervisors, even discourage them from taking them, uh, ethics courses or science and philoso, uh, science, uh, um, uh, [00:22:40] Sociology of Science or Philosophy of Science courses because it's a waste of time.

[00:22:44] Claudia: So I think this is a little bit of a difficulty for many of them uh, to argue why [00:22:50] they do this. Um, and thus they are a bit hesitant.

[00:22:55] Markus: And you run the risk of being [00:23:00] exposed in your own community as perhaps the strange, the one with the strange, [00:23:10] um, ideas.

[00:23:13] Claudia: Yes, 

[00:23:14] Markus: It's unscientific. 

[00:23:16] Claudia: Yes, I think this is something that many of them are very scared [00:23:20] of to have this Idea of this unscientific bit that they are doing. um but [00:23:30] on the other hand, it's exactly this space that you actually also need to improve your science and to improve the way how you communicate [00:23:40] with non-scientists, with the public about your science.

[00:23:43] Claudia: And also give a little bit of an insight. I think there's a lot of, uh, uh, discrepancy of, uh, [00:23:50] what scientists think that the public knows about how science works and how little actually. anyone who's not a scientist or not close to a [00:24:00] scientist knows about how science actually works and how a Lab works and how scientific questions are. raised.

[00:24:08] Claudia: Hmm. 

[00:24:09] Markus: You have [00:24:10] worked, um, with European Space Agency with, um, certain, the particle physics place in Geneva. They have artists in residence, [00:24:20] residence programs, so they seem to be already one step ahead. Would you agree

[00:24:25] Claudia: Yeah, so CERN, CERN is, is amazing. They have this program, I [00:24:30] think, uh, Ian Cook started in 2010, uh, and then the past 10 years, Monica Beo, uh, run it. And it's [00:24:40] uh, it's a really, um, globally known. Residency Program, uh, because they have, uh, very [00:24:50] different ways of bringing artists into, into cn. So for short term visits, for a few days, uh, just to be exposed to the scientists, get to know the [00:25:00] scientists, see some of these big, uh, experiments. Uh, but others get up to, I don't know, two or three months residency is working intensely [00:25:10] with, uh, one scientific group or a few scientists, um, some of them even in dialogue with a second scientific institution. um [00:25:20] and that's very Also, rewarding for the scientists and for the artists. Mm-hmm. So, yes. And CERN I think, is well known for the residency program.[00:25:30] 

[00:25:30] Claudia: Um, and all these artworks are not only, uh, some kind of an internal, uh, benefit to the scientists, but then also [00:25:40] end up at big Shows, exhibitions worldwide, which also opens up this kind of dialogue to the [00:25:50] public. Um, because when you think of pure science communication it's often either for an interesting pub interested, [00:26:00] uh, public.

[00:26:01] Claudia: So someone who reads certain magazines. Um, uh, or to, uh, it's, it's, it's very [00:26:10] short what you would press, would print about your latest

[00:26:14] Claudia: uh, Outcome. But it's not so much, um, it [00:26:20] does not give an access to Ask questions to really know about the background or maybe even discuss insecurities about [00:26:30] outcomes or what's the limitations. Um, and I think, um during the COVID-19 pandemic, we, we often understood and, and heard [00:26:40] with this kind of gap, uh, produces, um, in terms of misunderstanding about what a scientific outcome actually means.[00:26:50] 

[00:26:50] Claudia: Because we had a lot of insights published on a nearly daily basis about what the Virus does or what it doesn't, or what we don't know. And then there [00:27:00] were, was new insights about how, how the disease, uh, develops or changes or impacts the body, uh, which somehow [00:27:10] felt contradictory to a previous insight that was published.

[00:27:13] Claudia: And then the public had like, what are you actually doing? um is this true or is that true? [00:27:20] But then. Being also able to raise questions and get into this process, uh, of science and not stating that this is [00:27:30] the outcome, this is the one thing that's true, um, I think helps, uh, to also, um understand science differently and maybe also build [00:27:40] a little bit more trust in science. 

[00:27:45] Markus: one could even say, or could we say that we are wasting [00:27:50] valuable. Talent and momentum if we do not do the STEAM version and, and still stick to stem because we're [00:28:00] wasting potential. And it's not just about bringing in everyone, it's about bringing about the optimal outcome, [00:28:10] whatever the optimal

[00:28:11] Claudia: Yeah, Uh, personally I would say yes. This is something I've been

[00:28:16] Markus: would say no? Who would say no to this?

[00:28:18] Claudia: I don't think if, [00:28:20] I don't know who could say no to this, but many people still need to be convinced.

[00:28:27] Claudia: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:28] Claudia: Because it [00:28:30] seems maybe less earnest, less serious. It's, um, Also is a little bit less secure [00:28:40] in terms of, there is not this kind of safety net.

[00:28:45] Claudia: Uh, you might have an ask, uh, an artist to really ask a [00:28:50] very, very difficult question, uh, that

[00:28:55] Markus: Forces you out to come out of your comfort zone.

[00:28:58] Claudia: for not only forces you out of [00:29:00] your comfort zone, but maybe even, um, uh, Yeah, puts away all the fixed [00:29:10] points that you normally relate to in your work and suddenly you are somewhere in in free space and like, oh, wow, what does it actually mean? And is my work still relevant in this [00:29:20] context or what does it, uh, so, so, so very, very basic question. So once I was asked when this was in a, in an industry uh, context, um, [00:29:30] it, it was about 10 years ago. I was asked after a talk about arts and business, uh, yeah, but what if an artist in residence comes [00:29:40] to a car manufacturer and tells them maybe in 20 years cars will be less relevant? Should they kick the, the artist [00:29:50] out or should they somehow respond to the question?

[00:29:52] Markus: Fantastic question, fantastic point, because this brings me back to CERN and there's one thing I learned at at [00:30:00] CERN is to think beyond. The traditional boundaries of time [00:30:10] spans. We think in four years budget, financial cycles, election cycles and whatnot. At cern, you know that a lot better than myself. [00:30:20] But at CERN you'll learn to think in generations transgenerationally 

[00:30:25] Claudia: isn't it? Also, so with uh,

[00:30:26] Claudia: space missions

[00:30:27] Markus: exactly it's with space missions because I [00:30:30] mean like how long does it take to conceive and build and launch a space mission?[00:30:40] 

[00:30:40] Markus: So if a car maker was confronted and a car maker who takes themselves seriously was confronted with that question, [00:30:50] they should be thankful because this is a question they should have an answer to because maybe they will say, I. Thank you, [00:31:00] dear artist, but we have a solution for that because we know if they don't have an answer to it, then they have a problem.

[00:31:06] Claudia: exactly. That was actually also my answer and I, I was [00:31:10] very confused that this Person in the audience actually thought that this is something offensive towards the car maker. If 

[00:31:17] Markus: It's supportive.

[00:31:18] Claudia: this. I think so. I think so too. [00:31:20] Yeah, 

[00:31:20] Markus: It is.

[00:31:22] Claudia: So. 

[00:31:23] Markus: So all in all, I think bringing in the arts is one thing, but [00:31:30] it's all about opening up our senses, toward bringing in as much information as we can [00:31:40] into our questioning of things. So this is when you can bring in indigenous community knowledge, wisdom, et cetera, et [00:31:50] cetera.

[00:31:50] Claudia: Actually, this is what, when you just said this, so I wanted to refer. Yes. We have one of these, uh, artworks Also, in the universe, pavilion. Mm-hmm. So, uh, [00:32:00] the universe pavilion this year, the architecture Biennale, uh, connects of course to space architecture. Uh, it's called Sheltering in Space, a Guide. [00:32:10] And uh, the idea is to open up this. questioning or this information about what's the newest space architecture is [00:32:20] also to, uh, those questions that space architecture, anyone who wants to enter into space are confronted with.

[00:32:28] Claudia: And these questions are not only, [00:32:30] um, physical questions about how to build a shelter that endures a travel or that endures, um all the. [00:32:40] Elements they're exposed to on a different planet and so on and forth and, and shelters that maybe human being, human body. so one of the works [00:32:50] is actually an, uh, Australian artist, uh, Australian First Nations artist.

[00:32:54] Claudia: And I asked her to work, to do a work about sheltering that Also [00:33:00] reflects, um the sheltering, how she understands it from her native community. And she said, yes, actually. And I really remember this [00:33:10] first uh, conversation with her.

[00:33:12] Claudia: Actually, I live in a house, but actually I don't want to live in this house. I have to think about the plumbing. I have to think about [00:33:20] permits. I have to do this and that. And I don't feel connected as if I would in my. Community, because for our [00:33:30] community sheltering means, uh, being sheltered in a community, have a relationship to someone you can go to, uh, being backed [00:33:40] up by someone in, in term, in case uh, you have a problem, uh, help each other out, but also being connected to land.

[00:33:49] Claudia: and being [00:33:50] connected to uh, or relate yourself to the cosmos.

[00:33:54] Claudia: So her work is about this Celestial imu, uh, which is, uh, very important [00:34:00] to all indigenous communities in Australia. And it's the dark patches of the Milky Way. So it's Also

[00:34:07] Claudia: um, 

[00:34:08] Markus: it's the, the spots [00:34:10] between what we are looking at, because this is also so fascinating if I remember correct, but please do tell me from your expertise, but if I [00:34:20] remember correct, they have even sial patterns for the blank patches.

[00:34:24] Claudia: Yes, yes, yes, exactly. And, and the, and these dark, these dark parts. [00:34:30] And the, the, the biggest one is the imu. And this is very important for them also to think about, uh, IMU hunting, for example. When are you allowed to hunt the [00:34:40] imu? When, uh, when do you, uh, grow the seeds? When, uh, is harvest to, uh, when are certain times of potential [00:34:50] floodings and so on and so forth.

[00:34:51] Claudia: This is all that They relate to and this is how they see the immune in the sky. This is something how they relate to, but also how they, [00:35:00] uh, know where other communities live because this, it gives them the orientation as we would navigate with, the by the stars, they navigate by the nu. [00:35:10] 

[00:35:11] Markus: The more I listen to you, the more I feel like we have so much to learn still, and we should be very, very humble [00:35:20] about what we know. Because right now it seems like there is a huge upward momentum happening, that we are getting ready to become [00:35:30] an interplanetary species and we're doing the great stuff with our rockets and, and, and

[00:35:36] Claudia: It's very exciting. It's very exciting 

[00:35:39] Markus: Very [00:35:40] masculine at the same time, but at the same time, we're lacking all those left and right spectra and all that [00:35:50] knowledge that you are bringing. So we, we know very little. We know very little.

[00:35:56] Claudia: and we need a lot of exchange because there's, there [00:36:00] is Expertise and knowledge in very different communities and often also communities who are not part of these discussions. Um. Actually, [00:36:10] I also originally asked, Uh, this Australians first nation artists about this because I thought specifically thinking about going to a new [00:36:20] place, uh, Australian first nations as many other first nations or all other first nations communities, uh, also the ones who could talk about [00:36:30] colonization and what it means to those who have been there before.

[00:36:36] Claudia: Or, uh, also, maybe not [00:36:40] in the same cemented way as, uh, our culture is, but more on a, on a normal way, uh, going from [00:36:50] place to place. Um, uh, when someone else comes and says they take the Land, what does this actually mean? Can we do that or not? 

[00:36:58] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:59] Claudia: And does [00:37:00] it help to, um think of it differently? Only if I don't say I don't want to colonize space, but I.

[00:37:08] Claudia: Create settlements. Is [00:37:10] there, what's the difference and what does it actually also mean in difference in how I relate to this new place? And those that I probably don't know who were there [00:37:20] before or was there someone before? I don't know. We don't know

[00:37:22] Markus: but, but what difference does it make, ma? As far as we know, no one lives on the celestial bodies. We know. So [00:37:30] why not claim ownership? I mean, like, I'm, I know what I'm saying. I'm know what I'm saying right now, but that, this is tricky, but, but what difference does it make?[00:37:40] 

[00:37:40] Claudia: I think it's The difference is the approach, how you come and what kind of culture that you want to bring. Is it a, is it a [00:37:50] dominating culture, uh, an extract this culture or is it something, um, and there is another work in our, in, in the show that discusses this, or [00:38:00] is it something that's more like a symbiosis?

[00:38:03] Claudia: A positive Relationship, what do you actually want and and and what are the impla implications of this kind of relationship? [00:38:10] Um, 

[00:38:12] Markus: I, I, I'm learning, I'm learning a lot from you. Um, because I think what this could entail is once I am [00:38:20] taking the symbiotic route, even if there is no living organism on this other place, [00:38:30] but once I am taking the symbiotic route, I am being immediately sustainable, automatically sustainable, [00:38:40] because any kind of symbiosis I. Entails that I'm part of that new place, and if I [00:38:50] break the harmony of that place, I break myself.

[00:38:54] Claudia: Exactly, that's, that's that's the point. That's the point. And and this is actually what [00:39:00] ine Berg

[00:39:01] Markus: mm-hmm.

[00:39:02] Claudia: work is about. So she, she's a sculpture, So, her work is actually very contemporary sculpture. And she [00:39:10] starts out with one work that reflects on what is the human understanding of a home. Then if I have to translate [00:39:20] it to space traveling, and what if, what happens if I, um, if I go to a new place and start, the place changes with [00:39:30] me and I change there.

[00:39:31] Claudia: So both we need to change and it just, uh, and this is actually then told in an AR story, and [00:39:40] I think this is something that, that, that is this kind of question because we can say we go to another place and we have an extractivism approach, or we have this kind of symbiotic approach, which then [00:39:50] also, um, thinks about, um, what is best for the place and for me, uh, because if I destroy

[00:39:57] Claudia: the place, I have to go somewhere else again.

[00:39:59] Claudia: Mm-hmm. [00:40:00] 

[00:40:02] Markus: But there's enough places in in the universe to go to, but it's a permanent running away from

[00:40:07] Claudia: Yeah, exactly. Does this make sense? Do we always [00:40:10] want to be on the run?

[00:40:11] Markus: And it's very stressful.

[00:40:13] Claudia: Yes. And I think that there's two other works. So both to work on the Life Super support system by [00:40:20] Christina Kova that tells his story, but also the work by Markus Noad and, and Space Shelter Earth, tells his story, uh, about question about [00:40:30] sustainability.

[00:40:30] Claudia: Uh, I think for Mark Markus no. At this work, there is also very much this kind of ISRU can't, can be [00:40:40] told as something, oh, I live locally, I need to use local resources.

[00:40:43] Claudia: So it could be understood as something that we are nowadays often sold as uh, sustainable [00:40:50] also. there's a lot of sustainability advertisements, greenwashing going on with, oh, this is local, local produce, local materials.

[00:40:58] Claudia: But is it really [00:41:00] sustainable? How do I have this sustainable dialogue with the place where I am and where I shelter? And how do I build a shelter? Because I'm also very depending on the [00:41:10] place, uh, to find shelter, uh, and also each place is different, what kind of shelter I need. So it's [00:41:20] differently to shelter in Venice, in the Lagoon, on the water. Exposed to

[00:41:25] Claudia: the elements, or on the Moon, or on mass or on a [00:41:30] space travel where you're really confined in a, in a spaceship. And this is where Christina Kovas work also has this kind of metaphor, uh, from a scientific [00:41:40] Experiment to a whole ecosystem. So she did this, um, Experiment on yeast. It's called a yeast chemos stat.

[00:41:48] Claudia: And this chemos stat, [00:41:50] um, actually is, is, is a si, is a full cycle of producing yeast, biomass, and yeast, um, and, and, and products. [00:42:00] So you have to feed the yeast and you can harvest the product. But if you harvest too much or you feed too fast without harvesting, there's something that's called a washout. So you just [00:42:10] deplete, you ruin the whole ecosystem.

[00:42:12] Claudia: And it's actually Also a metaphor to how you deal with your own life support system or with the bigger eco ecosystem on earth. [00:42:20] 

[00:42:20] Markus: fantastic. It forces us to rethink ourselves how we think. So it, it's a, a fantastical moment to [00:42:30] learn as a whole, as humans. 'cause we know there's lots of things that need to be [00:42:40] repaired on this planet and there's lots of things we need to learn still. So perhaps this new place, [00:42:50] this new movement upward forces us to rethink how we understand ourselves, how we understand [00:43:00] sustainability.

[00:43:01] Markus: So there is a lot of positive stuff attached to it if we ignore it, which is very [00:43:10] likely. Um, we keep on doing the rocket stuff and the exploitation. Um, but there is huge potential [00:43:20] in this. Would you agree?

[00:43:22] Claudia: I would agree. Yes. I think, um it's not, it's not possible to just [00:43:30] always be in the run. It's not possible to be also always extractivism.

[00:43:35] Markus: exhausting

[00:43:36] Claudia: It's exhausting. Uh, and I think even, [00:43:40] even consumer culture is exhausting at one point. As people don't know what is actually, What's their relationship with [00:43:50] their environment, what's the relationship to the food that they eat, uh, what's the relationship to others, um, if it's not something that [00:44:00] is, uh, maybe also slow and in depth, uh, but always being stressed and something new, want more, uh, show [00:44:10] your status, is, I'm, I'm not sure if this is something that's sustainable for culture in the long run anyway.

[00:44:18] Markus: your very personal gut [00:44:20] feeling in all of this. Where do you think we stand in All of this is what we're envisioning right now, what we are dreaming up as we [00:44:30] speak in this conversation. I. Is this something that is growing roots and sprouts in our [00:44:40] society, or is this still very niche and runs the risk of drying out again? I.

[00:44:49] Claudia: I think in [00:44:50] society it's, um, there's, it's still niche, I think there is, um, I. just thinking about, you know, [00:45:00] uh, any audience who comes to the show, um, or to, who comes to such a show, uh, experience before, they're [00:45:10] often very astonished what's, possible and what scientists and engineers are working on. Um, on the other [00:45:20] hand, there is a lot of science fiction, a lot of, uh, science fiction books and movies that are very present also [00:45:30] in everyday imagery, in even, um, advertisements that, uh, already inspire a lot of people.

[00:45:38] Claudia: And a lot of [00:45:40] people already think that more is possible because they are so Uh, used to seeing science fiction movies than what actually is.[00:45:50] 

[00:45:50] Claudia: Uh, And for others, it's just oh, another headline in, um, in the newspapers. And they are wondering, Oh, wow. we go to [00:46:00] Mos because and to Moon and to mass to stay there and to run away from, uh. Yeah, what we did to Earth. But on the other hand, [00:46:10] I'm not sure if everyone is really, if people already understood what it would mean to live on mass, because it's probably not a nice, [00:46:20] uh, Beach holiday.

[00:46:22] Claudia: Most uh, people would, uh, I think they would not imagine a beach holiday, but it's not uh, [00:46:30] leisure time that they would have, uh, anywhere else on earth. Uh, so, uh, it's, it's hardship. And this is [00:46:40] something that's not conveyed, uh, in, Most of sci-fi movies and it's not conveyed in these, uh, news headlines, [00:46:50] um, when space entrepreneurs or other, uh, industry are talking about, uh, what they all could do in [00:47:00] space.

[00:47:02] Markus: Would you want to go,

[00:47:03] Markus: I 

[00:47:04] Claudia: think I would want to go, yeah.

[00:47:05] Markus: where to, how far would you go?

[00:47:08] Claudia: I don't know. I would like to [00:47:10] experience a trip. So just what does it mean to be in space, to go, to be surrounded by nothing? So [00:47:20] maybe not even to go on a, on a a specific place, sure. You know, there's all these analog missions, so you [00:47:30] have all the impressions from mouse and, and moon.

[00:47:33] Claudia: Not sure if you, you should not go to Venus, but Venus would be in

[00:47:37] Claudia: a 

[00:47:37] Markus: Venus is really, it's a very interesting

[00:47:39] Claudia: [00:47:40] Very interesting place. 

[00:47:41] Markus: because we had, um, at some point we had someone on the podcast who has a project [00:47:50] that pursues viability of building cities on Venus in the clouds of Venus because the [00:48:00] clouds of Venus at the CER certain altitude, they have the proper pressure, atmospheric pressure.

[00:48:08] Markus: To allow for [00:48:10] life. 

[00:48:10] Claudia: Yes, I have actually another project that just started it's side of the Universe Pavilion, It's called Venus Conversation [00:48:20] 2024 till 2034, So it's, uh, an arts project for 10 years, uh, together with Lily Hebert and Anbu. Uh, we started this, [00:48:30] uh, and it's about talking about Venus as a starting point, as a metaphor along the, all the missions to Venus, that are coming right now.[00:48:40] 

[00:48:40] Claudia: But also to discuss the science, the relevance of the science, the technology, the development of these missions. Uh, but also [00:48:50] to have discussions between artists and scientists Or, uh, humanities scholars like, um, scholars talking [00:49:00] about, um, what's the role of the planet Venus, uh, for the aged Greek, uh, people, or what's are [00:49:10] these, why are all these, uh, ancient figurines called Venus?

[00:49:15] Claudia: And what's the mythological implication of Venus and how can this be in discussion with [00:49:20] scientific research? And, um actually also fill in some, some interesting new, uh, gaps or stories? 

[00:49:29] Markus: What's your [00:49:30] answer 

[00:49:30] Markus: to all those? Questioning our space endeavors altogether because they say, don't we have 

[00:49:38] Markus: enough problems [00:49:40] down here on Earth to solve? 

[00:49:43] Markus: I 

[00:49:44] Claudia: I think there is, yes, there is enough problems to solve here, but I think, um going back to this [00:49:50] question about sustainability and about, uh, this Balance or homeostasis of an ecosystem, I think we can learn a lot from, [00:50:00] um, These thought Amer uh, experiments and insights to think about circular systems, life support systems. Uh, that is [00:50:10] really relevant also here on earth.

[00:50:12] Claudia: Uh, and also these metaphors of, that you cannot um, exploit such a system [00:50:20] to its limits, because if It breaks, 

[00:50:23] Markus: It breaks. it 

[00:50:24] Claudia: it breaks you as well. 

[00:50:27] Claudia: Um, so I think there's, there's a lot of [00:50:30] this kind of, um. 

[00:50:32] Claudia: Reciprocity in terms of research and technology development. That's very important. Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:38] Markus: Let me go back to the question [00:50:40] when I asked you if you are ready to go into space, because this is a question I love asking my, my guests. Um, so if you were to go, 

[00:50:49] Markus: it [00:50:50] usually becomes a very boring journey because it takes very long to get from A to B. 

[00:50:55] Markus: So 

[00:50:55] Claudia: That's the 

[00:50:56] Claudia: journey. 

[00:50:56] Markus: that's the journey.

[00:50:57] Markus: but still you need to enter [00:51:00] to do something, not to get bored.

[00:51:03] Markus: So my question to you, what's the one piece of music you would not want to miss on a [00:51:10] playlist on your journey? Because we have a 

[00:51:13] Markus: playlist on Spotify. It's the playlist for the 

[00:51:15] Markus: aspiring space

[00:51:16] Markus: traveler. So what's your contribution to that

[00:51:18] Markus: playlist? 

[00:51:19] Claudia: [00:51:20] My contribution to the playlist. There's so much music that I would 

[00:51:23] Claudia: not want to 

[00:51:23] Claudia: miss. I love music, 

[00:51:26] Markus: one piece. 

[00:51:27] Markus: The one

[00:51:28] Claudia: only one piece. [00:51:30] 

[00:51:31] Claudia: Maybe I would 

[00:51:32] Claudia: add, um, trust, dressed for space. I think you should have some fun music if you want to go on a long, [00:51:40] boring journey. 

[00:51:41] Markus: Fantastic. 

[00:51:43] Markus: And my last question to you, um, in Austria we have a coffee [00:51:50] house tradition. We love going to coffee places. This show is called the Space Cafe Podcast. [00:52:00] Um, and in coffee places, you know, and then energize yourself with a strong shot of coffee when you're tired to get some energy. [00:52:10] Now I challenge you to share an espresso for the mind with me.

[00:52:15] Markus: A shot of inspiration for me. For the listeners, [00:52:20] what would be your inspiration? You would, your shot of inspiration 

[00:52:24] Markus: you would like to 

[00:52:25] Markus: share from whatever kind of topic 

[00:52:27] Markus: you

[00:52:27] Markus: wanna 

[00:52:28] Markus: pick.[00:52:30] 

[00:52:30] Claudia: Mm. Maybe you should go and read a short story by Ted Chang, the Great Silence, and if you don't wanna read it, go to a Museum [00:52:40] and find the work by Allah and Illa that's based on this short story. 

[00:52:46] Markus: Fantastic. 

[00:52:46] Markus: And we don't say anything about it. No spoiling. [00:52:50] No spoiling, 

[00:52:50] Markus: because now we want 

[00:52:52] Markus: myself included 

[00:52:55] Markus: to go and find that short 

[00:52:57] Markus: story. 

[00:52:57] Claudia: Yes, 

[00:52:58] Claudia: do that. You'll love [00:53:00] it. 

[00:53:01] Markus: Claudia, thank you so much for taking the time for 

[00:53:03] Markus: doing this. 

[00:53:04] Claudia: Thank you 

[00:53:04] Claudia: for having me. It's been a pleasure. 


[00:53:08] Markus: [00:53:10] Thank you for joining us on this ride. I truly, truly enjoyed that conversation with Claudia. I enjoyed it [00:53:20] because it's always important to broaden our perspective and to, because there's. Too much. We do not know. There's too much [00:53:30] we do not see. And but we can see. We just need to open our senses and open our minds to things to get a wider perspective.

[00:53:38] Markus: So thank you [00:53:40] Claudia, um, for letting us. Take a peek into, into your world. Into the world where art meets science. It's [00:53:50] fantastic. If this story, this episode, today resonated with you as it resonated with me, consider sharing it with someone [00:54:00] you think, could benefit from listening to this episode and get inspired by its, its content.

[00:54:07] Markus: I do not know if I have mentioned it. [00:54:10] This episode, not only the episode, but the Space Cafe podcast is also available, um, with a little bit of more information [00:54:20] on Substack. So head over 

[00:54:21] Markus: to Substack, a fantastic place for mostly written stuff, and, uh, head over [00:54:30] and go look for Space Cafe podcast. And yeah, please.

[00:54:35] Markus: Let the world know that this show exists. It really means a [00:54:40] lot that you are here, that you're still listening. So thank you for your loyalty and uh, we're looking forward to, um, seeing you again in two weeks from now. [00:54:50] Thank you and bye-bye.