Memory Meltdown in Microgravity: Why you may just not remember your pioneering visit to Mars.

This episode's guest, Dr. Heather Collins, cognitive neuroscientist, brain-hack expert, and sought-after keynote speaker, takes us on a fascinating - and slightly unsettling - journey into how space travel changes the human brain. Buckle up as Heather reveals the extraordinary findings and crucial insights at the forefront of cognitive neuroscience, helping us understand not only space’s impact on our minds, but how to unlock our brain’s limitless potential here on Earth.

🚀 Key Discussion Points

• Microgravity and Memory: Discover how zero gravity literally shrinks your hippocampus - the brain’s memory center - and what this means for astronauts heading to Mars.
• Neuroplasticity & Space Travel: How your brain physically reshapes itself in space, causing vision impairments and cognitive challenges.
• Cognition Crisis on Mars Missions: Why impaired decision-making, memory loss, and brain fog could threaten missions - and what we can do about it.
• Artificial Gravity: Heather discusses why rotating spacecraft might be crucial to preserving astronaut cognition.
• Real-life Memory Hacks: Simple strategies to dramatically improve your memory today, from contextual learning to meaningful associations.
• Attention: Your Memory’s Gateway: Why distraction, not memory, is your real problem - and how routine can be your ally.
• The Overview Effect Revisited: The profound psychological transformation after just minutes in space - and its surprising potential to change global policy.
• Virtual Reality & the Cosmic Perspective: Can VR simulations provide the same transformative experience without leaving Earth?

🧬 Espresso for the Mind

“Your brain’s capacity might just be limitless—use curiosity as your compass to unlock it.”

🎵 Aspiring Space Traveler’s Playlist

Heather’s cosmic tune: "Jump" by Madonna
A rhythm to propel you boldly toward the next giant leap - into space and beyond.

🔗 Relevant Links and References

• Heather Collins – Neuroscience & Keynotes
• The Neuroscience of Microgravity (NASA)
• Overview Effect
• Madonna "Jump"
• Space Café Spotify Playlist

🌌 Spread the Cosmic Love
If this episode sparked your imagination or blew your mind, don’t keep it to yourself! Share this cosmic brain fuel with friends, space enthusiasts, and fellow dreamers. Available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you fuel your curiosity.

🎧 Stay Curious. Stay Cosmic.

#SpaceCafePodcast #CognitiveNeuroscience #MarsMission #BrainHacks #SpaceExploration #OverviewEffect

You can find us on Spotify and Apple Podcast!

Please visit us at SpaceWatch.Global, subscribe to our newsletters. Follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter!

Transcript

  📍  📍 And, you know, we, we spent a lot of time talking

about memory, right? One of the

interesting findings is that being up in space for a long period of time actually causes cells in your hippocampus to die. And your hippocampus is the organ in your brain that's responsible  📍 for memory. 

  📍 Hello everyone. This is the Space Cafe podcast and on Marcus. So does Space Zero Gravity have any effect on the human brain, the human mind, the way we think, the way our brain works. Yes. Recent findings from cognitive neuroscience show there is some major effect to the better or to the worse. This will be part and the main focus of our discussion over the next 70 to 80 minutes on the Space Cafe Podcast.

My guest today is Dr. Heather Collins, cognitive neuroscientist, and she. Works at the forefront of all those things, and she knows quite a bit about the human brain, the most recent findings, how our brain works. And I did take the liberty for my own sake, and I believe also for your sake, to try to find out how we can trick our brains into becoming the ones we've always wanted.

And I asked Dr. Header Collins about her favorite mind and brain hacks. So. I suggest you stay put wherever you are. This is a fantastic ride, a very beneficial ride to each and everyone. So without further ado, let's go. Welcome Dr. Heather Collins to the Space Cafe Podcast.

 Heather. Um, I was gonna watch, um, another episode of Black Mirror tonight, but then I reminded myself that you at some point said in the same time, I could build a stronger and more efficient brain. So you're giving me a very hard time to make a decision now, either watch Black Mirror or build a stronger, more efficient brain.

So what, what should I do?

Well, if Black Mirror makes you think critically about possibilities and science fiction and everything that it presents, then that's an exercise in critical thinking, which is also good for your It is

So I would argue you can do both simultaneously.

Before we move into space, let's talk about a little bit of the background that led you on that, on that trajectory. 

Yeah, before we head to space, we can definitely stay grounded here on earth. And I'm a cognitive neuroscientist, so my expertise is in how the brain learns, remembers, and thinks about information and people. And that means on a daily basis, I'm involved with some research day to day, but I'm also a keynote speaker.

So I take these findings from cognitive neuroscience and bring them to associations, corporations, businesses, other organizations, and show them how they can actually use. Strategies from brain science that are based in research based on how the brain works to improve their outcomes. And so my passion is about helping people understand how they can better use their brains to achieve their goals in life. And that's one of the reasons I love talking at South by Southwest. You never know, as you know, since you've been four times, you never know who's going to show up at any presentation

south by Southwest. So it was a pleasure to be able to talk with to people with very different backgrounds, from software engineers to other professional speakers, people who are space enthusiasts to podcasters like yourself.

Fantastic. This is getting me really excited because, 'cause I feel like I can get, uh, I can learn quite a bit today about how to even improve my own mind and to, to get better at things. So before we, before we get into, into the weeds, how much do we know today about the human mind? Because there's, there's so many anecdotes and stories and misunderstandings maybe about the brain, the human brain, the misunderstanding that we only use 10% of it all.

So, can you debunk all those myths and maybe let us a little bit into your world. How much do we know? Does science know about the 

Yeah, we can definitely debunk myth. So I can guarantee you, you are using more than 10% of your brain. I guarantee you that. Uh, there's also this myth that some people are left brain versus right brain. So more creative on one side versus more analytical on another. And that's a complete myth as well. In fact, there's

a, a really high association, uh, between the brain networks that are used for music and interpreting music and listening music, and also the brain networks that are used for engaging in computational mathematics.

So those are really, really highly correlated in your brain. And your brain also, uh, doesn't really split itself in half. Your, your left hemisphere really does talk with your right hemisphere. And so, although these two hemispheres, uh, appear to be separate, there's a bundle of fibers in the middle. So You could think of them as like electrical wires, wires that

cross and span both sides so that your left hemisphere is regularly communicating with your right and back and forth. And we actually know a great deal about the human brain. There's still very, very much to learn. There's still lots of unknowns. But as far as the basics of human behavior or human cognition and emotion, we know a great deal. And in fact, a lot of this research that is this scientific investigation into the human mind and how it works begins, you know, hundreds of years ago with philosophers and with.

hmm. 

People who were heading in the direction of science before science was actually a field. Uh, science itself is definitely much newer. than philosophy philosophy's been around for probably since the existence of humankind. We've been wondering about the big questions in life. You know, who am I? Why am I here?

All of those

questions. The very first psychological research laboratory investigating the human mind is relatively new compared to that. It was established in 1879 by a psychologist named V Helm, and he might actually be the first person who calls himself a, a research psychologist. He's evidence-based, and it was established in Leipzig, Germany.

Germany was incredibly crucial in the late 18 hundreds, early 19 hundreds in propelling the science of the human mind forward. And so we have a lot of really important, uh, phenomena based on these German scientists. A lot of, uh, brain parts that we know about are, are based on findings observed by German scientists, and so we, we actually do know a lot going back to 1879, we know several things that are really important.

We know my favorite, how memory works. So how you can better remember things, why you don't remember some things, and what happens when you just can't recall something that you wanna recall. We know a lot about how humans interact with one another, and we pick up on these very, very subtle cues. So, for example, if I am smiling at you, you, your brain is able to detect that right now.

I'm giving you a genuine smile. And

part of that is because of little eye wrinkles right here at the side of your eye. That's what's known as a Duchenne smile. And when we smile

authentically, we get these little wrinkles on the sides of our eyes. And that's the brain's, uh, ability to see those and recognize that and say, oh, I can, I can trust that person because that person is, is genuinely responding to what I'm saying. Whereas if somebody smiles at you like. Yeah. Really,

really big smile with, You? 

know, with, without those eye wrinkles there,

I don't know if you've ever had that experience where you say like, Hmm, something's off. Something doesn't seem

Maybe not. Mm-hmm. 

Maybe not exactly. And that, that maybe not feeling, that's your brain saying, hold up.

I know that is not an authentic, genuine smile, and maybe I need to be a little more cautious, a little more reserved about sharing information with this person or trusting this person. And that, that sort of situation comes way back from the days in which we were cave people. And it was, can I trust this person to be part of my tribe?

Or should I hold off a little? Maybe this person's going to take off with, you know, all of my food supplies in the middle of the night and, and steal from me, and then I can't trust them. So we know a great deal about how the human brain works, how people interact with one another, and the, the very, very small, subtle things that your brain can pick up on without even really being aware of it.

I got a bazillion questions on my mind right now. You mentioned, you mentioned we know how re re uh, we remember things and how we can improve. Remembering things. Is there a certain methodology towards doing so? Because I mean, like, this is, this is hands on useful, uh, information you, you, you can give here.

What can I do to remember things 

Oh yeah. This is something that comes up every single time I talk about the brain. Regardless of who the audience is or

where I am,

This always comes up because most people feel like oh, I want to remember things better. I want to be able to have a better

memory, even if they don't feel like they have a bad memory. I think it's a

genuine common feeling that we all have as humans, that we know that feeling. When we can't remember something and it doesn't feel good, and we would like to reduce the

frequency of those kinds of feelings, we, we would like a best memory. 

And 

do you ever forget your keys, Marcus, or wonder where you put them?

I sometimes or very often, it's those routine things that I keep forgetting because maybe I'm, I'm doing them mindlessly because it's routine.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And

you know, the great thing about routines is routines allow us to engage in a certain 

set of behaviors or 

set of behaviors or activities while our brain is thinking about something else and putting effort

Mm. 

else.

So routines can be

really helpful and really important and freeing up mental space to think about important things. You know, you don't really need to pay attention to everything happening in every. Little moment of your life, you,

you would go crazy thinking about all of that information. Um, the downside of routines is because it is something that you have automated and your brain has automated this behavior, that means you are thinking about something else.

And that means you're not paying attention to what you're doing.

And I hear a lot of people say, oh, I forget where I put my keys. Can you help me remember that? And the funny thing is that's not a memory problem. It's an attention problem. That is you walk through the door, you put your keys down somewhere, but you're not thinking about where you put your keys. You are thinking about, uh, maybe the cats are meowing at you, the dog is barking. The kids want something. You're thinking about what you're going to cook for dinner, or maybe you're thinking about what you have to do for the rest of the evening, or what the next episode of Black Mirror is that you're going to watch

tonight and you're excited about that.

And so you're ex, when you're excited and thinking about all of these other activities, you're just not paying attention to where you put your keys and attention is the gateway to memory Attention is how you take information out here into the world and actually get it into your brain. 

so it's the, the distraction is, is the issue, the problem. And this is, we're living in a destructive world 

these days. We have all our gadgets and smartphones and kids and everything, everything producing, uh, a cacophony of noise in our brains. And I think this is, this is maybe one of the, the greatest issues these days.

Too much information and we're not focused enough to be able to remember the essential 

That's a great way to put it. A

cacophony of noise in your brain. And, and if, you know, if you're not able to pay attention to something, it can never make it in. And if it doesn't make it into your brain,

it can't become a memory. So if it never makes it in, you can never pull it out when you need to. You can never remember it when you need to. Now, the good thing is

there's a, there's a really easy solution to the key problem and because you don't, you don't really need to pay attention to where you put your keys. You just wanna know where they are so you can pick 'em up when you need 'em. And that is take your automated routine and edit it so that it includes one specific place.

You always put your keys, maybe it's a little shelf, maybe it's a hook by the door, maybe it's a little bowl or a basket on the kitchen counter or somewhere nearby. You want it to be close to the door when you walk in and you'll have to, you wanna always put your keys there every single time. Now you'll

have to pay, you'll have to

think about it and really pay

attention the first few times. But after

that, it'll become an automated routine, just like many other automated

routines. But this time it's a good automated routine that will help you.

 I do a quite a bit of trail running and while trail running, um, I listen to podcasts and now, and then quite often my brain connects certain movements, certain places, very particular places with words I'm listening to.

Completely non-correlated, but I have a very visual memory when I listen to a specific word. In a podcast episode where exactly my foot was placed. So this is very strange and I do not even know. So I'm, this is not even a moment when I'm stumbling or when I'm, when something dramatic happens, but my brains for whatever reason, connects now and then places, movements with content I'm listening to for whatever reason.

Yeah, that's a really fascinating phenomenon of the brain that you bring up. And it's a, it's a really cool finding that basically neurons that that neurons that fire together wire together, so to speak. And

that's a really simple way of saying your brain works based on meaning and association. So anything that's meaningful to you gets linked and things that happen at the same time, even if they're not related. Get linked. So this is, this is something that's quite common. So for, for example, I've had a similar experience. Sometimes at night I will, uh, while I'm watching Black Mirror or you know, some other show,

I, I also will be making some jewelry, which is a hobby of mine to decrease stress.

And when I go to pick up my jewelry, maybe after a week, uh, of not making it, I'll remember exactly

what I was watching while I was making that.

Even though the jewelry and the

TV show have nothing to do with

one another, it's

just like your motion of your running or where you were while you were running has nothing to do

with the podcast. But because they happened at the

same time, your brain connects those neurons and now they're connected and they're gonna play together.

And when we say they play together, that means when you think about one, it's going to fire off electrochemical signals to the other and you're gonna think about the other. So we can. We can actually use this for to our advantage. And there's something that's known as context dependent memory. And because our brain is paying attention to all these things at the, at the same time, and, and sometimes linking them, you can use it to your advantage. So let's say your trying to learn some information and you know, maybe you're trying to memorize the words to your new favorite song because you wanna be able to sing along with it.

Mm-hmm. 

And so when you're out on your run, you're listening to your favorite song, well

you do that exact same thing. Go on that exact same run, listen to your favorite song four or five times, and after that. You could take your headphones out and go on that run and you'd be able to recall that song without having your headphones in. Because being on that

same path you were on triggers those neurons in your brain to fire off and say, Hey, when I was here the past few times, I was listening to this song. And the song will sort of play in your head automatically without your consent.

So make sure it's a good song and something you really want or remember, because that's a surefire way of building a memory of that song. Conversely, let's say you're sitting in your office and you play that song. well Because you played that song, your brain says, oh, this song is now associated with this place.

I was running a few times while listening to this song.

So even though you're sitting in your office, you'll have a lot of visual memory, uh, about what, was where you were and what the, what those runs were like in the environment while you're sitting in your office listening to that song 

I love that because right after our recording, I will put that to the test. I'll start running like right 

after with, uh, with one of my favorite songs, and I'll check back with you in a couple of days and, and, let you know how it went.

absolutely. I would, I, as a good scientist, I'm always collecting data. I. So I would love to hear exactly how this went.

And for any of your

listeners, please try this out and let Marcus and I know how it went. And it doesn't just hold true for music and running. It could be any two things. And this actually could come in really handy for anyone who's a student out there. Uh, university students high, you know, high school student, any, anyone who's trying to learn anything. If you sit in one spot and do your learning in that one place, you'll have stronger recall of your learning every time you go back to that place.

So we should find the perfect learning spot and stick to that 

place. Um, is, is is. Okay. Okay, good. And turn off our smartphones.

And turn off your

And remove. And remove. 

Absolutely. And the distraction has a huge, huge cost on memory because again, the gateway to your memory is attention. And if you're constantly being distracted, then that means this thing you're trying to focus on and pay attention to is not making it into your brain. It's, it's gonna

stay wherever it is.

And you're nev you're not going to learn it, you're not going to remember It's never going to get in there.

is it true that our brains need 13 minutes to get focused, and when you're distracted, you are starting the counter all over again? So is is that 

Well, every, every, there is some research and, and some data to show So there, as you point out, distractions are incredibly, really harmful and detrimental to your ability to, uh, achieve your goals. Really hurts your brain and there are some data and some research out there to suggest that when you are interrupted by something, maybe it's your smartphone, maybe it's your cat

jumping on your desk meowing at you. It really takes about 15 minutes for you to get back on track. So there's a really, really big cost to being distracted and as far as whether it takes 15 minutes or not to focus. So that's something that actually varies greatly amongst individuals.

So if, if you're an individual, um, who is not neurotypical, so maybe you have a DD, then certainly you're gonna have a more

challenging time getting focused right away. If

you are an individual who, let's say, uh, is an expert at meditating, well, being an expert at meditating. Really enhances your brain's ability to narrow in and focus very, very quickly. So maybe instead of 15 minutes, it might take you two or three minutes. And the other thing is, it's, it's also very task dependent. So if you are working on something that you know very, very well, that you are an expert in, then you're, you're going to be able to zone in and focus right away because your brain has done that thing a lot of times and it says, oh, I know I've, I've done this, you know, a hundred times, I know how to slip into this. But if you're doing something new, it's going to take more time because your brain doesn't have any

experience slipping into that zone of focus.

Another interesting variable is actually your emotion. 

your emotion So 

do you feel about the thing you're doing? Is it something you're really excited about? If that's the case, you'll be able to focus very, very quickly. If it's something you don't wanna do or something you're dragging your feet on or something you just don't feel good about, it's gonna take longer for you to focus. And that's simply your brain telling you that it hasn't bought in yet. So you need to create a little bit of

buy-in for your brain to be able to focus.

And maybe that means you, you talk to yourself and you say, uh, for me, recently it was, it was taxes. I had to do my taxes. It's, it's not a fun

experience, it's not a pleasant experience,

but it 

Mm 

be done. So rather than focusing on how much you dislike something, try to find a positive. So for me that was, uh, I don't wanna do my taxes.

It's really hard to focus on. It's very tedious, I. but, uh, when I'm done, I'm going to be able to submit it and get a refund. And so the quicker I submit my taxes, the quicker I get my money back. 

So it's all about finding the right, the right narrative, 

the right, the the, storytelling for 

Oh yeah. Your brain is really big into storytelling. And if your brain, if you have not cultivated Brian, buy, buy-in with your brain. Mm, nope. It's not gonna work.

And so it might even be just giving yourself a little treat or a little reward. So maybe it's after I do my taxes or after you write your next podcast, uh, you're gonna go out and get an ice cream cone. maybe it's something like that.

and

the really, really important thing of that is when you take time to celebrate small wins or to

celebrate some small achievement or goal, you're actually tapping into

your brain's reinforcement network. So that

little, that little ice cream cone actually is really,

really important because it tells your brain, Hey, I did this and it was a good experience because I got this thing I really, really like.

I got this ice cream cone. And that means next time there's something challenging I have to do, I'm gonna feel better about doing it because I know that getting through it means I get a little treat, I get a little reward, and that makes it not so bad. And so this is a, a really small way to tap in and actually start shifting your mindset and shifting your brain's energy to realize. I can actually take on these goals that I wasn't so sure about for, and this is a, a way to neurobiologically reinforce that idea and create buy-in with your brain to help you conquer those difficult tasks. 

Fantastic. Let's, um, let's, um, move upward. Let's go into 

Let's go to space. I'm ready. Are you ready?

Would you go by the way, if someone asked

So.

Katie Perry was 

yeah, it, it

depends. So, uh, first of all, somebody would have to pay for me to go, it's quite expensive. I would definitely go on, a, a a suborbital flight to the Carmen line like they just did. So those flights, for listeners who aren't familiar, this is the one that Blue Origins just launched with Katie Perry and Gail King and, and some, um, four other women. And it, the entire flight time from launch until landing is about 11 minutes. So you launch, you take off and you go to the Carmen line. And the Carmen line is essentially the, uh, the line that separates, um, Earth's atmosphere from what we would call space. And it's

62 miles above the earth. And the really significant thing about the Carmen line is once you go up there, that's where you could become weightless.

So that's where you experience. uh, not quite zero gravity, but we call it microgravity. Little bits of gravity, but not enough to keep you down. You're actually weightless. So would I

do that? Yes, I would. Absolutely. And, and I think that actually with my background as a, a cognitive neuroscientist, thinking about everything the brain goes through, uh, you know, I, for anybody listening out there who's a, you works for Blue Origins or some other company, you know, Virgin Galactic or anything else doing

flights, you know, I would love to actually conduct some research studies on this. Uh, because

one of the fascinating things, Marcus, is that we, we don't have Research studies, uh, based on. Just lay people going up into space and that there's, there that started to become an interest because we're realizing that space tourism is here and it's important to know not just how super human astronauts are affected by

space, but hell everyday people, you and I who are not

superhuman astronauts may be

affected by space travel.

So that's, that's something that's, that's new that's really happening. Now, if you're asking me if I wanna go to Mars, I'm not quite there yet.

Maybe you wait for the first cohort to come back and tell you how it 

Wait for the Coast first cohort. But, uh, also, I, I really appreciate all of the things we have on earth that are blue and

green 

On Earth. 

and not just, uh,

not just dirt and blackness

everywhere.

environment.

Yeah, 

the, I don't know if The hostile environment. is very appealing to me, but definitely wanna scan the brains of people who go up to Mars and come back.

That's where I wanna be. I wanna be on the ground with a brain scanner scanning

their brains and giving them questionnaires and cognitive, uh, tests to find out what it was like and how it may have changed 'em.

Does space change the human mind? How much do we know 

about that? 

it does. We

have, so I've, I've been on several publications with nasa where we've looked at astronauts brains, uh, before and after space flight. Uh, ESA European Space Agency, been on a collaborative paper with them. They're collecting data risk cosmos, are collecting data on the

cosmonauts, uh, jsa, the Japanese space agencies collecting a lot of data.

So we do have dozens of research scientists collecting data all over the world on this. And it, it's pretty definitive. that space does affect the brain. And the interesting thing is it depends on a lot of factors. So it, one of the big factors is how long are you up there? So we, uh. Back in the, the days when the US was using the space shuttle program, we have some data on astronauts that would go up to the International Space Station for maybe, you know, two weeks and come down and we did not see a lot of brain changes with them.

There might might

be some minor things that happen and they're probably temporary.

So I would anticipate anybody who's going up on one of these 62 mile flights up to the Carmen line and they're come back down and it's 11 minutes, they, they might experience some temporary shifts in the brain, but they're, they're probably going to be, uh, recovered shortly after returning.

Where we see more dramatic changes are for astronauts who are up on the International Space Station, let's say for six months or longer. So typical

long duration mission, as we call it, might be six months to one year. And

Mm-hmm.

I was gonna say, what, what we see then is a, a really interesting collection of changes.

So one of them is that there, there are vision changes. So your, your eyes have, um, the, the biggest nerve, the thickest nerve in your your body is behind your eyes and that's your optic nerve. And that goes back, crosses over hemispheres and lands back here in your occipital lobe. So that vision comes in through your eyes and your brain processes it back here. Well, those fibers, the optic nerve fibers in space tend to get, uh, stretched out and crunched down. And therefore there's vision impactment. 

´ Why is that?

So funny thing, our brains have developed to appreciate gravity here on earth. And so our brains sit in our skull very, very nicely, and they're surrounded by cerebral spinal fluid.

So they're, they're, they're

kind of sitting in there, but there's a little bit of fluid shift. So to allow for a little bit of, um, insurance, let's say in case you

smack your head against something, your head's not necessarily going to smack at the upside of your skull. You have that fluid as a buffer. Well,

when we're in a micro gravitational environment, again, little, little tiny bit of gravity, but you're weightless. Instead of your brain being situated in your skull nicely where it belongs, it's now floating in a way that's abnormal for it.

And actually it causes a change in those fluids in your brain and they shift

upward. So if we were to look at the very, very inside of your brain, so if we were just to slice your skull open, pop it off, and

look down in the center of your brain, you would see these little cavities and, and almost, if you're looking down,

it would almost look like a little butterfly kind of shape. And those are called

ventricles. And those are also filled with cerebral spinal fluid. And when there's a change in gravity, it causes an increase in pressure in your brain called intracranial pressure. So those, uh, ventricles fill up with more fluid, and that puts more pressure pushing out your brain. And it actually puts a lot of pressure shifting upward with your brain.

And so that change in pressure really causes things like your optic nerve to kind of get crunched from that pressure. And it causes other changes as well. So the, the top part of your brain actually like smacks up against your skull, gets a little bit squished there, and your, your brain as a result of getting squished in different parts just doesn't work as well.

And there are a lot of challenges associated with that.

Hmm. So is this  bad news, or do we, do we know yet? What,

Well, this is.

what the effects of all that?

Yeah. This is, this is bad news. And, you know, we we spent a lot of time talking

about memory, right? One of the

interesting findings is that being up in space for a long period of time actually causes cells in your hippocampus to die. And your hippocampus is the organ in your brain that's responsible for memory. So we're gonna see

memory impairment in space

too. Yeah. Yeah. And we, we don't have a lot of data on how persistent these changes are when astronauts

return. Um, NASA is, is. If They don't have a, a typical protocol where they scan, uh, with MRI astronauts, let's say a year

later or six months later, they get scanned pretty quickly after they return

to Earth, and that's about it. 

The 

Russian Space Agency was Cosmos. They actually have some data on, uh, the Cosmo knots and what happens with their brain changes after they return. And the, the finding is that there, there are some changes that appear to linger. Now, are these changes enough to cause a disturbance and, and really affect the way someone lives here on Earth? Well, we're not a hundred percent sure yet. It, you know, maybe you do have more

memory glitches. Maybe it, it is a little more challenging for you to recall information when you want. So it, it could be that that's the case. We, we know that generally speaking, while you are in space. The kind of changes we see in the brain might be associated with, uh, like a rapid, a rapid aging of the brain, you know, the, that kind of a

Hmm. Ah. 

So it's not great. A, a lot of those do return back to baseline, uh, to, to some extent, you know, might take a little while, but, uh, some of them might be

more permanent and we just don't know exactly which of those changes are more permanent.

Very interesting. So we should, we should speed up our, uh, artificial gravity strategies because if we bring back gravity in space, then we could mitigate those issues. Is 

that right? Or is it not so simple?

No, I honestly, if you're, if you're asking me what. The biggest barrier to us going to Mars is, I would say artificial gravity. Um, do we need artificial

gravity to go to Mars? No, not necessarily. But you and I were just talking about brain changes that happen in the International Space Station for, six months a year. Well, the moon is farther out than an international space station,

and we're talking about now setting up moon bases. So we're talking about people being on the moon for a good deal time and to get to Mars. Well, that might be six or eight months, uh, commute

time, so to

speak. 

Just to get 

Each way. Yeah. Just to get there.

So

if it's a, a minimum of six months to get there and six months to get back, that's one year travel time. And so how you, I, I don't like spending, uh, I'm not gonna fly to come visit you probably for a weekend, right? Because

that would be a lot of time on a

plane for just a little time to get to see you.

Not that you wouldn't be worth it,

you're awesome. Uh,

but we, we look to make sure that if we're gonna spend a lot of time traveling, we actually get to enjoy the destination or, or at least do what we need to do on that destination. So it could be work, could be travel, could be whatever. And so I could see somebody spending a year on Mars, or two years on Mars,

or three years on Mars. And so that amount of, you know, could we make it work well, but certainly there's some way that human survival can work without artificial gravity. But what are the effects on the brain? What, what are

people going to be blind by that time? Because

the visual impairment are, are so devastating. uh, are. Are people going to have completely diminished memory systems by that time? Because there's been so much time with intracranial pressure due to the microgravity that we start

seeing some really, really dramatic effects on the brain. And and it's not, it's not just memory, it's not just vision. You know, there, there's some of these, uh, brain regions are involved in, in thinking, reasoning, decision making, and I, I assume you've seen a space movie or two in your time,

Mm, absolutely.

and I'm sure your listeners have all seen space films.

We, we all love space.

And the one guarantee about a space film is that something's gonna go horribly wrong. Right? Something's

gonna just gonna be terrible and awful and when something is

terrible. 

is going, is is going crazy?

Yeah.

Yeah. 

Someone aboard the ship is going 

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Or something happens with the ship and, uh, or a big

asteroid coming at

you, and so

some crisis is going to happen.

And when there's a crisis that happens, boy, you need to be a sharp thinker. You need to

be excellent at decision making. You need to be able to pivot and switch your thoughts and strategies very, very quickly. You need to engage in rapid problem solving that's going to work. And if these areas of your brain are diminished, what happens when you're 90% of the way to Mars and an asteroids coming for you? 

you 

We don't know. We just don't know. So I, I think your point about artificial gravity, yeah, that's gonna play a huge

role in, in not just making sure we can get there, but making sure that we can get there in a way that preserves our brain health and preserves our ability to do all of these really,

really 

advanced human functions that we need to do. 

need to do.

Super interesting. Um, to be honest, I'm not really enjoying what you're telling me here because I would want to see someone, some humans setting boots on the ground on Mars. In the very near future, but to be super honest, you are the second person now, um, suggesting we reconsider our plans because the first person we already had, um, a couple of episodes ago was the director of the cas or one of the managers of the Cassini mission.

And when I asked him about our Mars plans and that we are getting ready to set boots on the ground before 2030, he was just laughing out loud and said, we do not have a solution in place. A technical solution place against radiation is against space radiation. And now you are telling me we have no solution in place against. Um, memory or, or brain deterioration, um, brain, uh, uh, function loss and, and whatnot. So maybe going to Mars needs major reconsideration because it's not just about the spacecraft, it's not just about the vehicles. It's also about how we as humans are encapsulated in those vehicles. Is that a safe place or is it a very dangerous place?

And, and still it seems we have not done our homework. Um, in order to be able to live out there, we may be able to build those rockets, those spaceships and everything looks that we're gonna have them anytime soon. But this is just one side of the coin. Um, a coin of many sides, I think.

Yeah, this is, this is certainly a, a more than a two-sided coin as you point out. And it,

it's interesting, you, 10 years ago maybe, I was at a

NASA research conference and

mm

I spoke to several people who were on the ground, boots on the ground working at NASA with astronauts and, and things like that. And they said that at, at that time it was thought a mission to Mars, you know, might be a one-way mission, that might be a one-way trip.

You might be able to get there, but you're not gonna be able to get back.

back

And 

mm.

pretty much every astronaut they spoke to said, I don't care. I would go anyway.

Wow.

So there's some, there's still some aspect of space really being there for exploration. Uh,

just like, you know, hundreds of years ago people would set sail on a ship. Trying to go exploring, looking for the Americas or looking for something else, and they didn't know if they were ever gonna

come back. 

For a scale, the tallest peaks. 

Same. Same. That's true for 

The scale. the tallest peaks. Yeah.

They don't know if they're gonna come back, but they

wanna do it anyway because they're explorers. So I think there's

still a, a big push for people who are explorers.

They care less ab about the consequences of it happening than they do about actually being able to go there and get there. And that that holds true, maybe not for professional explorers only, but also adventurers, you know, people with a, a lot of resources who just wanna do it to say they did it. And they, they

certainly can make that choice regardless of how safe that

choice is. 

is. 

Uh,

just like people who wanna go explore the, the deepest depths of the ocean and they don't know if they're coming back, but they still do it. So I think those people will always be out there. And, to be honest, Marcus, those people might be the first ones who end up going to Mars. They might say, I don't care.

I'm going

no matter what. You know, regardless of how safe it is. 

I'm sorry. But I think this is only possible for private, uh, privately funded space missions because if we're talking about we publicly funded space missions, we still need to be able to make ethical decisions. And this is, this is an ethical decision to be had here.

And if we're not super clear about what we're doing and if the, the chances of survival are 50 50, I think we cannot risk any kind of mission. What do you say?

Uh, I think you and I are on the same page. We wouldn't risk that mission, but we're also not the people making decisions, and you have to hope the people making those decisions are making them in an ethical way. So I I, I can't say for sure if that's the case or not, or if it

will be when the time comes,

but we hope so. I, I think we are at the stage that regardless of who is first, I do believe it will be a

private mission. Uh, maybe with or without the, the support of a public agency, whether that's, uh,

Issa or nasa or JSA or Ross Cosmos.

I, I, and those are certainly the big, big players. So with or without their support, I do believe it will be a private mission.

Who makes it their first? They're, they're,

they're just, they're able to move more rapidly. They're able to get money together faster to make this kind of thing happen. And it will be, you know, I hope they're honest with the risks about the people who choose to

go, but, but ultimately, if the opportunity exists and people would like to take advantage of that opportunity, that's, it's up to them to make that decision. Now, I think when we're talking about. living on Mars or staying on Mars for any amount of time, or really the moon base

too, because we're not that far

away from hotels on the moon. And essentially

you could go and spend a two week vacation there. So we're not that

far away from that. But we would wanna make sure that it'd be great for radiation measures, countermeasures to be

available. That's

certainly a big risk. And we would want artificial gravity there.

And maybe that art, if you're going to be a space tourist who goes to stay at the, you know, a hotel on the moon for two weeks, you definitely wanna experience weightlessness. That's probably one of the reasons

you're going there. Uh, but for example, we've heard from a lot of professional astronauts that sleeping. microgravity is not necessarily a pleasant experience. So maybe you have

artificial gravity in

sleeping corners and you actually have a,

a bed to sleep in and can feel gravity at that amount of time to give your brain a little bit of a respite from those zero gravity or microgravity experiences. So I think I do think I'm on

I saw, I saw, 

important to have artificial gravity and other safety measures in place.

I saw a, um, a replica of the Columbus module of the ISS. And, um, in, in, one of the lockers I saw, uh, a replica of sleeping bags, like he hanging sleeping bags. Um, I think this is the experience that they're having. It's like bath style, sleeping experience.

like bat style. It's essentially a a, a mummy type sleeping bag. If you're familiar with camping

equipment, a mummy type sleeping

bag, kind of Velcro to the wall.

And interestingly what I see every time I see pictures of people sleeping on the space station, your hands are just kind of floating out like this, which I think is pretty fascinating.

Yes.

So maybe there, maybe, maybe,

when we are there artificial gravity is during our sleeping hours. 

hours.

exactly, exactly. For some extra pay, maybe. Um, are there any, uh, beneficial observations, um, science has made so far when it comes to the human brain and space?

Well, there are certainly a lot of breakthroughs regarding science breakthroughs, and

let me put out there that, although there might be some. Health challenges associated with space. We have gained a lot of good information from it. So

one of the benefits about a micro gravitational environment is we're able to do science experiments we can't do here.

So testing out new cancer drugs.

Uh, they, they even grow lettuce and some vegetables

in the

International Space Station. And certainly that's going to be critical for Mars. Can you imagine going to Mars and

only eating, um, you know, meals in a packet,

food, canned right? Frozen. Frozen, dehydrated food for three years.

No, we're gonna need to grow

fresh Yeah. and fresh foods. So

there are some really amazing advancements being done. And I will say that I think one of the most fascinating effects of space on maybe not the brain specifically, 'cause this hasn't been tested with MRI, but at least the reported experience is the overview effect. So if you talk to.

Frank White.

Yeah, if you talk to nearly every astronaut, uh, but also every space tourist who's gone up even on these 11 minute up and down to the Carmen line experiences, the the nearly universal experience is the overview effect in which people say, wow. I, I saw, um, blackness everywhere, and then I turned and I looked at the Earth and it was blue and it was green, and I felt one with it.

And it, it seemed like such

a, a, a place that's so unique and so welcoming and so warm and yet so fragile, and I feel like I'm a part of it now we need to protect it. And so that, that effect is, is really fascinating. And I actually wonder if as more people go into space as space tourism really blossoms and blooms, are we going to have a big shift on how we see the earth as a society? So when we have not just one or two, but. dozens in which we have now and hundreds and thousands of people coming back with this overview of fact, is that going to lead to some policy changes and how

we treat the earth in our environment? Is it going to lead to other positive social, social changes and how we treat each other across different borders? Because one of the parts of the overview effect is people say there were no borders. The only borders were land and sea.

Mm-hmm. Mm. with our earth and our planet, but one with everybody else who inhabits that planet. Our fellow humankind.

be, could be truly transformative for societies. If we sent our leaders on such missions on maybe just an 11 minute, um, Carmen line experience, our leaders will, I think, make different decisions after that.

I would, I think that would be an

absolutely awesome experience for them. And like you said, transformative. If we get people to

go up there who can make a big change and make a big difference and do it swiftly. Uh, yeah, I think this is, you know, maybe one of the most beneficial aspects of these very, very brief space travel experiences is that it, uh, I posted on LinkedIn, uh, after the last Blue Origins launch it.

If you think about what people talk about before they go up and there's the anticipation and excitement versus what they talk about when they come back. It is transformative. And it's transformative in 10 minutes and 21 seconds.

And can we think of

anything that could possibly be more transformative in 10 minutes and 21

seconds?

So it it, you know, you can find something that can change you and change your perspective in that brief amount of

time. And if that could be

this space experience for our leaders and change makers, that that could be huge for society and for our planet.

planet 

That could be a little complicated to get like all the, the security details covered. But that could be a huge, a huge business case for a space company to only skip the leaders into space and back again, of course. But who will focus on just that, that could be truly, truly amazing. You know why, uh, I don't know why I'm thinking, uh, why I'm drawing this analogy now, but, um, I hear from leaders in India time and again, that in India you get on a spiritual journey also, whoever you are.

And if, if you're the president, if you're the prime minister, whoever you are, you have a spiritual journey. I. In your pocket from earlier in your, in your life. So for example, I was blown away when I came across a book called Transcendence by Abdul Kalam. And Abdul Kalam used to be, um, India's, um, prime Minister, um, two generations ago, I think.

And, uh, he, he comes from the, the space industry and then gets appointed to become the Prime Minister. And it was truly interesting to hear his life story when he, um, discussed with his guru, I, his name escapes me, um, what his role in life and his role in life as a prime minister should be for the country.

So he took that, that vantage point, that elevated vantage point in his mind and went like, let's go on a journey for a couple of months now. Let's go on a trip and find out what it is that I'm supposed to do for my country. And this is truly humbling in my, my opinion, to have this approach when entering such a, such a, a job description.

And I think now, maybe in the Western world, we are not, we're not capable to do those spiritual things because there's so much baggage attached to it. But maybe going into space and experiencing an overview effect has the same spiritual dimension that a six month long journey through the Himalayas has.

Maybe it's all not making sense at all. What I'm, what I'm babbling here, but I, I just had that analogy and I, I think that nicely fits our 

I think that completely makes sense. And it's a, it's quite a profound thought. And the 

the 

whatever insights that self-reflective kind of experience could have massive effects as you point out. And the interesting thing is, I, I think there's also a, a way to do this at a much lower cost for individuals who would like to have that profound experience. Um, but you, you might not have the budget for a, a ticket on a shuttle or a rocket or anything like that. There are some companies now that realize the value of this overview effect and of this experience, and they. Really provide this experience via virtual reality. And so they have the video footage of

leaving earth

and hovering in space and returning to earth, and you can do it at a

fraction of the cost. Now, we would imagine that this is probably uh, not as transcendent of an experience is actually being up there.

However, it certainly would provide you with some insight

and allow you to gain some perspective that you didn't have prior to that experience and at a

much lower cost. And, and I think as this becomes more readily available and more popular, this is certainly another way for, um, people at all, all points in society to maybe be able to have a, a little taste of what this experience is and gain a little bit of

information. 

And slightly more sustainable. Slightly more 

sustainable when it

sustainable, more environmentally friendly, less expensive, more readily available. All all of those good characteristics also.

How long do you think, do you think, do we need to understand I. If it makes sense to spend more time in space for our human brains, or how long should we wait before we venture for a longer time? Because we still we're, we're making baby steps, I think at the moment when it comes to understanding how, how dangerous or not dangerous that is to our human 

minds I, I think that 

I. 

It's going forward and the pace at which it's going forward is based on the technology available. I think

that's the driving force, regardless of how

dangerous it is. And, I think that's just because it's, it's one of these things that humans have decided, 

decided 

we're going to Mars.

This is happening. This is happening no matter what, no matter how safe it's, and that, that happens in some aspects of society. So

for Mm-hmm. here with American football, there has been a really, really large impact of, um, traumatic brain injury from football players. And the NFL, the

National Football League has acknowledged this and they, they have put some money into research and trying to make better helmets and, and things of that nature.

But it's, it's the idea of, we, we know that, you know, very large men are going to be colliding into each other, and that's just part of the sport. We're just, we're gonna do it no matter what, but we'll, we'll try to

make it a little safer as we go along. And I think it's very much the same

thing. mm So to me, I think the, the big things are going to be, um, the, the engineers and the physicists and all this are,

are, and technologists and, um, you know, software people are making this happen at a very rapid pace, and it's going to be on the

human end.

What can we do to make this as safe and sustainable as possible when the time comes? So I don't, I don't think the safety

part is going to hold us back. I think it's gonna be what can we do to make it as safe as possible? And I think there are already

some good ideas that are happening. So the, some of the big ones are, as you've talked about, artificial gravity.

There are companies right now working

on artificial gravity, and that'll certainly make a massive impact. Uh, also, uh, AI bots are going to be hugely important. And that is if we have some, some AI entity on board with people, those AI entities can evaluate humans for, uh, ex psychological fitness for mental health, but also give cognitive tests and vision tests.

And

so at, at, even if we can't fix everything, we would at least be able to identify the levels of impairment and understand what

that means for human performance in space.

I think, uh, also the cool thing is if we do see, for example, a really, really big factor in just the travel to Mars is going to be depression. So

all of these

factors involved in traveling to Mars are factors that could trigger depression. So not

having regular human contact with your friends and family as you normally do. Um, not

having outdoor nature, which has been shown by research to be very, very beneficial to the human mind and very beneficial in combating and preventing depression from happening. But if you're just staring into a black space for six months while you're going to Mars, you, you don't get that. You don't get that feedback, uh, lack of vitamin D because you're going farther away from the sun and, and you don't have that vitamin D coming from natural sunlight. So countermeasures might include vitamin D supplements, but also with ai, uh, therapy sessions To help

treat depression and other challenges that come along with mental health. And video calls with friends and family on a regular basis to help combat things of that nature. So there, there are a lot of 

of. 

Really not perfect solutions, but countermeasures to help with those challenges of humans being in a space for a prolonged environment that we can do. And even on the side, that comes back to one of the first things you and I talked about.

Well, what, what can I do to make my memory better? Well, there there are memory strategies. so we could teach people

memory and cognition improvement strategies here on Earth just to give them those skills. You'll boost it while we're here on earth so that you're at a higher level A cognitive performance before you go into space and things become challenging. But also if you do find through AI or doing an assessment or through your own experience, like you, you're, you're on this rocket and you're going to Mars and you're in month three, and maybe you think gosh, this doesn't, it doesn't feel right. I can't remember things Then, you know, okay. When I was on earth, I practiced these strategies and these strategies helped improve my memory. Now I have those strategies and I know them. I'm gonna take those strategies and use them while I'm in space and try to help my memory too. So there are a lot of countermeasures available. So we're, we're going when it's time technologically and we just will be doing our best to make sure humans can be, be the best that they can be with what we have with them. 

have

Thrive in thriving space. I think it, it could be truly interesting to now take the next step and, and think how our physicality, our brains will adapt to. The environment over generations and evolve out there in space that could be truly interesting is, is science looking into something like this, this, this may be a little speculative, 

I would say right now that's definitely in the realm of, um, science future, not science

present, but it's also not

science fiction. So

it's not something that's totally unbelievable. It's something that you, when the time comes, I, I think we will be ready to examine that. Uh, as you said, that'll

be a, a very long research study over generations

and 

Yeah. mm. 

But I do think that that's a question on most people's minds who think about space travel and what

that means for humans. And you know, it will be really interesting generationally or even, let's say you're on the moon or Mars for decades, how does your brain change and adapt? How does your body

change and adapt? We know that your, your muscles in your body and your skeletal system, those are also really benefited by gravity. And we know that despite the fact that astronauts work out for two hours a day on the International Space Station,

they still come back and have incredible muscle atrophy and weakness.

And, and most of the time they, they can't walk on their own without

some 

mm 

after they returned to

Earth. And certainly if you were on Mars for three years and then came back, what is that gonna look like? 

like?

Um, Heather, let's come back to to Earth again. What are your favorite five favorite mind hacks you'd like to share as a scientist

for our audience? 

For, For, me to immediately make 

Yeah. Okay. So one of them is, uh, I do a little experiment. So as, as a good research scientist, I always have experiments in my back pocket. And when I give keynotes and talk to companies and organizations, one of the things I like to do is, uh, not just tell them about how their brain can improve, but really show them and have them do experiments and so they can see what it feels like right away. And a

question I ask is, would you like to improve your memory by 20 to 40% in five minutes? And so would you

you

Let's go right 

Yeah. Really

simple. Don't multitask. So there's a huge cost of

multitasking. And if you just pay attention to one thing at a time, you'll improve your memory by 20 to 40% right away. Maybe even more. Maybe even more.

So that's,

that's number one. That's really easy. Number two is that meaning is really, really important to your brain. Your brain is organized and based off of meaning. So have you

ever thought, uh, you, you've maybe been somewhere, been at some event or something and, and somebody asks you, oh, how was that?

You know, how was that, uh, how was that, that orchestra performance? Or how was that play you

went to, or that movie you saw?

And you say, eh, I don't, I don't know. I wasn't really paying attention. I don't really care that

much. You know, it was a, it was a science fiction film, and I'm not really into science fiction.

Well, if you don't care, neither will your brain. Your brain pays attention to things that are important to you. And so the hack is if you need to take in some information or make a memory out of something, you know you're gonna need something later. Find a way to make it meaningful to you, even if you have to

be really silly and goofy about it. So, uh, I need to remember something about, you know, I need to remember to bring this pink pen with me. Well, who cares about a

pink pen? But let's say I have to have it for some reason. Well, maybe I think, okay, how is this meaningful to me? Well, I don't care about it, but I know that my mom's favorite color is pink, and she really,

really loves pink roses.

And so I send her pink roses every

Mother's day because I know she'll like them. And so this

pen might not matter to me, but the minute I link it to my mom, my mom matters to me and she's important. So if I think of mom and pink pen together. I'm gonna be more likely to

remember this because now I've made it meaningful to me.

Mm-hmm.

So 

you can do, even if you have to make six leaps to make it meaningful to you, that's okay. Uh, number three is related to that, and that is your brain is selfish. There's actually an

area of your brain that responds selectively to information about you. So if you need to be focusing on something or remember something or think

about 

something, and you wanna make sure that it's gonna be done in, in a way where you're gonna remember it later, you're gonna have it to recall on later. Make it meaningful to you. And so think about how that's important to you. Me, me, me, me, me. Your brain is all about

me. 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

That's a hack right away also.

And number four. Ooh, what should number four be? 

Mm. 

If you wanna remember. Or think about a number of things. So maybe I need pen, I need phone, I need, uh, my id. And those things don't seem to go together. Make them

go together. So as we talked about, your brain works based on association. So maybe I think about a way to make these things go together. And maybe that is, I think about, uh, what would happen if I took my pen and started writing on my phone. How disastrous would that be?

And then what if I took that pen and also started writing on my id? I wouldn't be able to go anywhere. I wouldn't be able to take a flight,

Mm-hmm. 

tell me,

forget about it. Um, so maybe the solution is I actually get one of those wallets where I can put my ID on the back of

my 

Mm-hmm.

I, I, I take the pen and I throw the pen across the room because I don't

want it to be anywhere near my phone in my id.

Mm-hmm.

So when

you, 

And it sticks. 

when you take things that don't necessarily go together and you create a story to force them

to go together, your brain remembers it better, and your brain can think about it in a

more complex and deep way. And, and, and in fact, um, you know, number five would just be, let's take advantage of that.

Let's take advantage of the fact that your, your brain is a storyteller and your brain likes to have a lot of information about something and you can drop something into your brain. And then what if we just let your brain go on fire with it? So I want you to, uh, think about an apple. 

apple. 

And you're just, you know, maybe

you're just thinking about an apple.

Now think about the difference between that. And if I say to you, Marcus, I want you to think about an apple, but rather than just an apple, I want you to actually create an image of it and think about what it looks

like. Now think about the heft of that apple in your hand.

Think about the weight of it and how weighty it is.

Now take a look at that apple. Now imagine, uh, it looking at its shiny green texture. Maybe it's a granny smith apple,

like the kind they use in apple

pie. 

Mm-hmm. 

And you can see that's shiny and green. It has kinda a waxy look to it almost. It's so shiny. Now I'm gonna take that apple and I'm gonna take a bite out of it. Now imagine

the tart sweet taste of the apple, and it's so juicy that a little juice runs outta your mouth and dribbles outta your chin. 

That's an apple. 

So when

we've done that,

I wanna have it right now. I.

me too, I might be salivating a little bit. I should keep apples handy when I talk to people. So what that does, instead of just thinking of an apple, which really would take advantage of your hippocampus and your frontal cortex, now you've engaged your occipital lobe and created imagery. You've thought about what it looked like. You've engaged somatosensory, cortices kind of on the top and side of your brain. You thought about what it's gonna feel like, what it's going to taste like, the sound of that crunch as you bite into the apple. And so you've created, instead of just two parts of your brain, several parts of your brain. So

maybe now instead of 20,000 neurons talking about your apple, you have a hundred thousand neurons, 200,000 neurons

about your apple, and that means you have a much better chance of recalling that apple or thinking about that apple later on when. 

on 

brilliant. you already mentioned, Heather, that you would go to space, maybe not to Mars, maybe to the moon at some point. Um, I'm asking because we have, um, I'm asking this question to each of my guests, and the question is for that long journey, because going into space may be exciting, but traveling can get pretty boring at some point and.

What's the one tune? What's the one piece of music you would want to bring on that trip, on your playlist, because we have that playlist on Spotify. There's a playlist. We called the playlist for the aspiring space Traveler, what's your tune? You wanna introduce 

One tune, one song. That's it.

Exactly.

choose Jump By Madonna. And the reason for

that 

Fantastic. Mm-hmm. 

a huge Madonna fan, so love Madonna, love her music to me, her music's very inspiring. And what I love about this song Jump is that it has a really good beat to it. It's a good dance tune. So that would keep me, keep me upbeat, keep me moving, keep me in the, in the mood. 

in the mood. 

We know that that movement and beat and things like that are, are all very, very positive cues for your brain to induce joy and to induce wellbeing. So it would definitely be a song that that can induce wellbeing and joy. And then also that song is all about moving to the next place. There's only so much I can do in one place.

The more that I wait,

the more time that I waste. And for

me, that song has always been what helps propel me from one stage to the next stage, from one place to the next space place

from here now to wherever I'm going in the future. And what better

message to have on a space flight than a song that's about jumping to the next place.

You got a special relationship with Madonna. Um, do you mind sharing that story? I.

Sure. As, as I've stated, I am a huge Madonna fan, and my husband and I always go to multiple shows whenever she's on tour, because her, her message and her performance and her, her life is just so inspirational to me and makes me feel like a million bucks when I'm at her concerts. And that, that feeling was amplified one time many years ago.

I was unexpectedly pulled up on stage to dance with her and appear with her.

her. 

On stage with her? No.

yes.

I mean, like how, how does, how does that happen? I mean, like what are the odds

the

odds are very, very slim. I I will say that my personal journey with Madonna has included that, uh, for me to get into the concerts. I go in costume, 

I. 

So I made a costume from my, one of my favorite tours, the Confessions Tour.

And when I was doing my PhD, this was my therapy. I would work on my dissertation and then come home at night and make myself this costume. And I, I grew up as a dancer, tap jazz, ballet

Hawaiian Tahitian. I was in a modern company for two years in college. And

so the, the idea of a dance costume was something that spoke to me.

And this costume is, uh, from the tour that has the album, that that jump song is on the Confessions Tour and the Confessions album. And it's a white unitard with purple stripes and six inch platform go-Go boots and a white cape that says Dancing Queen on the back and has reflective glitter disco balls on the inside.

And another special

thing about this costume is that it's actually a throwback to an ABBA costume. And in this particular tour, she actually

received permission and was sampling an ABBA song, which Alba doesn't do that very often. So this

was very 

special. So I began to go to the concerts in this costume and it really just helped me immerse myself in the show and be one with the show. And I was in this costume and was able to actually meet the costume designer years later who designed that costume, which was a very special moment to

me. And um, the show at that concert was almost all the way done. Um, so we were almost all the way done nearing the finish line and all of a sudden I get a tap on the shoulder and it was tap going 10 people in.

'cause I was in the middle of the row and I had to turn out and

look. And they said, somebody wants to talk to you. And I went out into the aisle and it was, there was a, a very. Very stern, large security man there. And, and another man with a, a headset on who was very technologically inclined with the show.

Dark 

And he said, do you wanna go on stage with Madonna? As if there's any answer, but yes, of course the answer's yes.

And they

said, okay, we're going to take you up to the side of the stage. And in about two minutes that'll happen. And we don't know what's going to happen. 

to happen.

Wow.

And she pulled me on stage. She began dancing and as a dancer myself, I followed what she was doing and did the same dance moves and just played along with everything she was doing.

And I knew from, it was

the, the culmination of all of my experiences. It was my dance experience taking into place. And my love of performing and public speaking took place because I wasn't afraid to be on stage in front of 18,000 people. I didn't know. I was thought that was super exciting. And it was also my background in neuroscience taking place because I thought, okay, this, this could go very, very well, or this could go horribly wrong.

I could end up

just, just falling flat on my face, in my go-go boots on stage in front of everybody

and that would be a

disaster. 

how did you hack your own mind? How 

did you hack your hacked my own mind a few ways. One is that I had a lot of cortisol, that stress hormone floating around my system because I thought 

thought 

this is happening and I was in shock.

And so I did some, a few deep breathing exercise and

I did a, a few, uh, little dance warmup moves to get my body ready and to get the idea of

motion happening in my body. And then I also thought about what, who is Madonna? What does Madonna stand for? What does she value? What does she respect? And she does not suffer fools. She respects people who are bold, people who take risks and take chances, and people who she can banter with. She's very, very

funny. very witty and she has an amazing

brain and wit about

her. And so I thought, I have to be bold. I have to be brave. I have to dive in and take risks and do whatever this experience puts in front of me and make the most of it. And if she talks to me, I have to be witty and I have to

show that I can respond to her. And that's exactly what I

did. And it was an amazing life-changing experience. It was the, the culmination of all of my skills coming together at once for really amazing moments. And of course, we went back for more concerts after that. 

that.

Wow. What a fantastic story. I'm so happy for you. Beautiful. Um, I challenge you now to energize me, energize the audience with an espresso for the mind to an inspiring, energizing thought you'd like to share with me.

And it can be whatever kind of topic you wanna, uh, you wanna pick.

Yeah,

I, I have something that's amazing that comes back to one of the first things we talked about when you asked, is it true we only use 10% of our brains? And we said, no,

and in, and in fact, here's a really, really cool thing. We don't even know what the capacity of the human brain is. We don't know what the capacity of the human

mind is because it's never been reached. So it might be that your brain's capacity is limitless. And with that in mind, when you think about your brain's capacity to be limitless, think about everything you want to do. Think about what you wanna do to make your life a little happier, a little more joyful, a little more positive, maybe a little more productive, maybe reach those goals you wanna reach. You can do it, your brain can do it. It can absolutely do it. You have the capability. And one of the best ways to get there is to engage your curiosity, because your brain likes to solve problems and riddles and challenges. And when you use curiosity, that just means you're asking questions about things. How can I get there? What's next? What would happen if I did this? If I do X, do I think Y will happen or will Z happen? And by engaging that curiosity. You're opening up your brain to outside possibilities and oh, you're essentially feeding your brain good information about the possibilities. Possibilities. And so this is why I tell people when, whenever you can take the opportunity to tap in and unlock your super brain.

brain. 

Wow. Thank you so much. This is usually the cue that this is now the end of our recording, but I would like to share. Something, an observation that I'm making, um, about my own mind with you, with the audience. Um, it may be nothing new to you, but there's this technique called speed writing. And I, I do it quite a bit, uh, when I'm stuck in a problem or when I need ideas, whatever.

So I would sit down, set a timer to five minutes and force my, my rational mind to get quiet by stressing it through, through that timer. Um, and, and, and so I'm writing against a clock and it's not about anything in particular. I am writing. I'm just spilling subconscious ideas onto a piece of paper in no meaningful way whatsoever.

But this usually produces. Very interesting insights into problems or questions I may have or I even not aware of I'm having, and so this is a very interesting and useful technique for myself when I'm stuck with some something. I guess this is nothing new 

I love it. I think that's fantastic. You know, the, the challenge with being a human is that we have these very large frontal lobes right here, and they're really

good at getting deep into thought. And as, as you've noted, sometimes when we get deep into thought, it, it actually harms our productivity and we can get stuck and we can get in a rut. And putting a challenge on yourself is a really good way to escape that. So that five minutes of writing,

brilliant, I love it. I do something similar sometimes with speaking even. So, rather than,

uh, writing fast without thinking, I speak fast without thinking. And I'll turn on my phone and record and give myself one topic and two minutes and see what comes out. And. Very often. It's not something I've thought about before. So this is a, this is a fantastic way to hack your brain, to gain new insights and really to focus on what the important thing is you're trying to say that you might not have even been aware of next time, or you weren't sure how to distill this complicated thing. When you give yourself a time limit and you force yourself to write or talk about it, the the important parts  📍 shine through. 

through. 

They're in your brain. Your brain knows them.

This is just a way to unlock it.

it. 

Yes. Heather Collins. This is mind blowingly interesting. Thank you so much for taking the time. Um, and, and, and be a guest on 

Oh, happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me, Marcus. This has been such a fun and interesting and intellectual stimulating discussion, and this was absolute wonderful experience. Thank you.

you. 

 Thank you everyone for being on the show with us, for spending the past 60 minutes with us in and I'm hoping that you are taking some benefit from what you've heard today. At least I did. I'm going to try out some of those exercises Heather recommended us do, so I would totally love to hear.

What, um, you're making of them. So please do drop us a message wherever you find the Space Cafe podcast. , in the show notes, there's a bunch of links. Um, were to find us so. If you found this episode beneficial to you, consider recommending it to a friend or to who may have some interest in the topics that we're discussing here on the Space Cafe podcast.

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