Someone is Seriously Putting a Swedish House on the Moon—Right Now!

Guest Introduction:
In an extraordinary fusion of art, engineering, and cosmic ambition, Swedish artist Mikael Genberg and space engineer Emil Vinterhav have realized what many deemed impossible—a traditional Swedish red house, journeying through space toward the lunar surface. This Moonhouse symbolizes humanity’s unyielding aspiration and our innate desire to explore, challenge limits, and leave lasting footprints in new worlds.

Key Discussion Points:

• The Birth of a Vision: Mikael’s inspiration and the initial disbelief surrounding the idea of placing a symbolic red house on the moon.
• Journey to the Moon: The innovative route and the four-and-a-half-month voyage that optimizes energy efficiency.
• Art Meets Engineering: How Emil and Mikael navigated the cultural and technical divides, bringing poetic creativity together with precise engineering.
• From Idea to Reality: The rigorous process, from designing a space-qualified paint in Mikael’s kitchen to comprehensive vibration and vacuum testing.
• The Ultimate Longevity: Reflections on the permanence of the house as a cosmic art piece that will outlive human civilization, serving as an enduring symbol.
• Emotional Launch: Experiences at Kennedy Space Center, from personal anticipation to the profound realization of their dreams ascending into space.
• Ethical Considerations: Addressing the philosophical implications of leaving human artifacts on celestial bodies and how this project enriches human cultural consciousness.

🎵 Aspiring Space Traveler’s Playlist:

• Mikael's cosmic tune: "Anarchy in the UK" by Sex Pistols
• Emil's cosmic tune: "Clair de Lune" by Claude Debussy

Relevant Links and References:

• Moonhouse Official Website
• iSpace Inc.
• Kennedy Space Center
• Spotify Playlist for Aspiring Space Travelers

Cosmic Reflection:
"We don't just put a house on the moon—we place humanity’s dreams among the stars, challenging ourselves to think bigger and embrace our cosmic destiny."

Spread the Cosmic Inspiration:
If this conversation moves your spirit, share it with dreamers and visionaries in your life. Let's ignite imaginations together and continue to write humanity’s celestial story.

Join the Space Café Community:
Subscribe, listen, and join us every Wednesday for your next cosmic conversation. Let’s keep looking up, exploring, and dreaming together.

You can find us on Spotify and Apple Podcast!

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Transcript

# Moonhouse Master

[00:00:00] **Emil:** it's not driven by a, by a by government. It's not driven by great commercial needs. 

[00:00:07] **Emil:** We really 

[00:00:08] **Emil:** have to push it, uh, [00:00:10] all the way ourselves, and it shows that everything is possible if you just wanted bad enough,

[00:00:16] **Markus:** Hello everyone. This is the Space Cafe Podcast, and I'm Markus. [00:00:20] So here's a pretty crazy project to build a house on the moon, not a moon house, a regular house like [00:00:30] you would see it on earth. And that crazy project is becoming a reality as we speak and will be placed on the moon in very [00:00:40] short time. In fact, that house is already on route in transfer to the moon.

[00:00:45] **Markus:** And um, it all originated with a crazy idea by. [00:00:50] A crazy Swedish artist, um, Michael Berg is his name, and together with his business associate space engineer, Amil Vinh, [00:01:00] they, um, first when they had the idea, they had a big laugh and because they never believed that something like this would be feasible and could happen.

[00:01:09] **Markus:** And at some point [00:01:10] now, a couple of years later, we're here now talking about the, this moon house becoming a reality. And by the way. A moon house. When I [00:01:20] talk about a moon, moon house, you know how those Swedish houses, the wooden houses with the, the red paint? It's exactly what we're, what we're talking about.

[00:01:29] **Markus:** It's [00:01:30] unbelievable. So without further ado, please make sure you're sitting comfortably or you're having a, I don't know, wherever you're listening to this, um, you're having all. [00:01:40] The attention to that episode, which is, in my opinion, the epitome of an inspirational conversation to have. Thank you, Michael.

[00:01:49] **Markus:** Thank you, Emil, [00:01:50] for your time. Let's go.

[00:01:53] **Markus:** where is Moon House right now? 

[00:01:56] **Mikael:** Approaching the moon. Uh, it's actually, uh, [00:02:00] apparently it's quite soon going to to lunar orbit, 

[00:02:03] **Mikael Genberg:** orbit, 

[00:02:04] **Mikael:** which 

[00:02:04] **Mikael:** has 

[00:02:05] **Mikael:** been a long trip for that little house. 

[00:02:07] **Mikael Genberg:** house.

[00:02:08] **Mikael:** It's been like 

[00:02:09] **Mikael:** 1.1 [00:02:10] million kilometers out in space before 

[00:02:13] **Mikael:** turning around again.

[00:02:14] **Mikael Genberg:** again. 

[00:02:14] **Markus:** why is it taking so long? Because I mean, like, this is not the shortest cut to [00:02:20] the moon. It's taken, I don't know, five months, six months, what's going on?

[00:02:24] **Mikael:** 4.5, uh, four, four and a half months. Uh, I think that I've, I've asked all the [00:02:30] engineers and I've had the, I do have the answer, but I think that the ML will be better equipped as a space engineer to actually answer that 

[00:02:38] **Mikael Genberg:** that 

[00:02:39] **Emil Vinterhav:** Simple. 

[00:02:39] **Mikael Genberg:** [00:02:40] or. 

[00:02:40] **Emil:** We, 

[00:02:40] **Emil:** we wanna save gas. That's what we're doing. We're taking the long way around to find a, uh, 

[00:02:45] **Emil Vinterhav:** uh, we're taking, 

[00:02:48] **Emil:** we're saving mass. We're saving [00:02:50] propellant on by going a long way around, swinging by the moon, and, and then coming back for the optimal, optimal approach. I say. 

[00:02:56] **Emil Vinterhav:** I would say.

[00:02:57] **Mikael:** And, and reaching, as I [00:03:00] understood it, 1.1 million, uh, kilometers out there is a, there's a, an area where the gravitation from the sun and the moon and the earth kind [00:03:10] of triangulates and makes things stop, so it actually holds. And so the energy in order to, to go back, uh, is extremely small. [00:03:20] So you go back and you go down and I suppose you go slower back.

[00:03:23] **Mikael:** And then, so now, but now it's, uh, it's approaching the moon again.

[00:03:27] **Mikael Genberg:** again. 

[00:03:29] **Emil Vinterhav:** it's, 

[00:03:29] **Mikael:** so 

[00:03:29] **Emil:** [00:03:30] it's, 

[00:03:30] **Emil:** it can be 

[00:03:30] **Mikael:** that's how I 

[00:03:31] **Emil:** than that. Yeah, it's 

[00:03:32] **Emil:** even more elaborate 

[00:03:33] **Emil:** than that. Yes. You, when you get out there, the, we need to do a course correction in order to, to get into, [00:03:40] to lunar orbit. Two, to really target the moon. If we go direct, we'd have to break like the, the Apollo landings. They went in three and a half days.

[00:03:47] **Emil:** A, they put a lot of energy into going to the moon, [00:03:50] and then they put a lot of energy or a lot of fuel into stopping by the moon. 

[00:03:54] **Emil:** You can do it, 

[00:03:56] **Emil:** You can go just so you reach the moon and then it's a bit more efficient. But this is [00:04:00] sort of, you're going out way out to the moon and then you do this course correction, and then you can really target, uh, 

[00:04:07] **Emil:** target the soft 

[00:04:08] **Emil:** approach to, [00:04:10] to getting there.

[00:04:10] **Emil:** It can basically fall into orbit around the, by going the long way around.

[00:04:15] **Mikael:** Can, can, can I just before, uh, before that, ask Emily a question about that because I, uh, [00:04:20] one thing that's kind of 

[00:04:21] **Mikael Genberg:** kind of 

[00:04:22] **Mikael:** troubling 

[00:04:23] **Mikael:** me 

[00:04:23] **Mikael:** with this journey that takes four and a half months, it wouldn't it be as easy to, when you release the [00:04:30] lander from the rocket, so to speak, when you start the, the engines to go towards, uh, the moon, couldn't you just go very slowly?

[00:04:39] **Mikael:** So you just use a [00:04:40] little bit of energy and you take four and a half months just to go slowly to the moon instead of increasing the speed going out and then coming back.

[00:04:49] **Mikael Genberg:** back. [00:04:50] 

[00:04:51] **Emil:** The 

[00:04:51] **Emil:** moon takes 

[00:04:52] **Emil:** 28 days to go around the earth, and if we say the optimal or the what is called a home and transfer, [00:05:00] the, the quickest, where the, the, what would seem to be the most obvious, obvious way to go to the moon would take half of that. So around [00:05:10] four, two weeks, 14 days. So that, that's the quickest.

[00:05:14] **Emil:** But still, 

[00:05:16] **Emil:** there's no, you cannot just do, start with a couple [00:05:20] of millimeters per second or one meter per second, and then think it's going to go slower. You need, you need to kick yourself into a high orbit so you don't fall down too soon. [00:05:30] The moon is high up there. And you're trying to throw yourself up there, and if you're not throwing hard enough, you'll, you'll pull back before you, before you reach the moon. 

[00:05:38] **Emil Vinterhav:** moon.[00:05:40] 

[00:05:41] **Markus:** I I love that conversation. It sounds like very genuine. I, I almost cannot believe that, that this is a real conversation between the two of you [00:05:50] because the moon, moon house is already in, in approaching the moon. So it sounds like you have never talked about this before. [00:06:00] So great

[00:06:01] **Mikael:** No, we, no, no. We did talk about it and I asked a lot of, a lot, lot of the people from MySpace as well, and they, they gave me the same story, just that I [00:06:10] am from a totally different background and I'm, I mean, I'm so super intrigued by the mathematics around this way of traveling towards the moon and going out 1.1 million and they're coming [00:06:20] back.

[00:06:20] **Mikael:** But do you know when you, when you just, um, when you just, when you're not, uh, a mathian or you don't really understand it, then I have to ask the same question many [00:06:30] times. Could you just go slower towards the moon? But now, now we, Emil said it quite, uh, quite good, I think, uh, that you can't really go that slow, but, you know, just have to, [00:06:40] I just have to ask again and again, you know, 

[00:06:41] **Mikael:** in order to

[00:06:42] **Emil:** Uh, you ask the diff the questions in a different way and I try to answer

[00:06:45] **Mikael:** That's true. 

[00:06:46] **Mikael Genberg:** That's true. 

[00:06:47] **Emil Vinterhav:** in 

[00:06:47] **Mikael:** And I 

[00:06:48] **Mikael:** always try to explain it. I [00:06:50] try to explain it to people as well, and I do try to explain it. Um, and when I try to explain it now, Iman said, well, it's a little more [00:07:00] elaborate than that. So, you know, I understand that I need more, always

[00:07:03] **Emil:** Oh, but you do a good job, Michael. knowledge, you know, in order to actually explain it to people.

[00:07:08] **Mikael:** Then again, the people that I [00:07:10] explain it to, they don't know anything about it. So it's, it's, you know, 

[00:07:14] **Mikael:** the good thing I've, I 

[00:07:15] **Mikael:** don't 

[00:07:15] **Mikael Genberg:** don't, 

[00:07:17] **Mikael:** I don't know too many space engineers 

[00:07:19] **Markus:** [00:07:20] no, love it. Um, 

[00:07:20] **Markus:** let's go back, le let's, let's go back to how it all started. Maybe give me a little bit of a, or us a little bit of a primer into, [00:07:30] or when it started and how the two of you got together and, well, how and why does anyone want to place a house on the moon? How did it start?[00:07:40] 

[00:07:41] **Mikael:** I have to take that one. Um, I always say that it started out with, uh, reading an article in the Swedish newspaper. It said, now Sweden goes [00:07:50] to the moon. It actually started before that because I read an article, somebody said, but you said that one year earlier. So I had this dream and this, this [00:08:00] fascination about the Swedish red House with white corners.

[00:08:03] **Mikael:** I mean, you've been to Sweden several times. You've seen it, some villages just looks crazy. I mean, it's in, in Sweden, that is [00:08:10] the monument that we have. The monument of Sweden is the red house and this paint, and I think we are the only country in the world that actually has a facade color that is [00:08:20] so monumental as this red.

[00:08:21] **Mikael:** Color. And I was playing with that. I was doing, um, I had built a, a tree house, um, Redwood White, and [00:08:30] it looked really weird. And, and then I, I, I built a, a underwater hotel room also, um, with the red House on top of it. But even before that, I was, I was looking into [00:08:40] this, this symbol as, as a, as a good mix of survival and beauty, if you want.

[00:08:46] **Mikael:** I mean, architecture is, is really interesting in that [00:08:50] aspect. I think that it's combines those two, um, in, in, in a, in a, in a really, it makes it kind of a, uh, an optimal [00:09:00] expression for, for human culture. And so I was playing with that and my, I, I don't know when I got the idea, but I, I somehow got, [00:09:10] I thought that.

[00:09:11] **Mikael:** Placing a house like that on the surface of the moon, that would be the ultimate piece of art. I [00:09:20] absolutely did not believe that that ever would be possible to do. When I read that article, now Sweden goes to the moon. It was about Sweden, um, [00:09:30] was allowed to build, uh, the construction around the first, a lunar orbiter called smart one.

[00:09:37] **Mikael:** And it did, and it was, um, launched I think in [00:09:40] 2003. Um, but before that I just, you know, I, I had this idea about, I.

[00:09:45] **Mikael Genberg:** about. 

[00:09:46] **Mikael:** maybe 

[00:09:46] **Mikael:** I. 

[00:09:46] **Mikael:** could, you know, all of a sudden it was tangible. [00:09:50] Somebody in Sweden was actually working towards the moon, and I had the idea and I asked my friends about it and said, you are absolutely nuts.

[00:09:57] **Mikael:** That will never happen. My [00:10:00] brother even said, if you ever succeed with putting house on the moon, I promise you I will walk backwards every time I see you. 

[00:10:08] **Mikael:** I'll take that up with him [00:10:10] quite, quite soon. He will. Having to start working backward, walking backward. Uh, and so, so I had the idea and I did confront [00:10:20] my friends.

[00:10:20] **Mikael:** They said, you're crazy, but they were also intrigued by that craziness, and that's something that followed this project. I think that it's, it is. Something [00:10:30] that should be impossible for me living in a small industrial, Swedish town, um, to actually, uh, be able to touch the moon. [00:10:40] But, and, and I've been watching the moon now for 25 years, thinking it can't be impossible.

[00:10:45] **Mikael:** It can't be impossible. 

[00:10:48] **Mikael:** Um, 

[00:10:48] **Mikael:** and then I, sometimes I think it [00:10:50] is impossible, and then it can't be impossible. And then we started working on it, um, after a couple of years, and it really took some [00:11:00] speed. When we got some money in, we started working with the Swedish Space Corporation. E Emil was working there.

[00:11:07] **Mikael:** E Emil, um, was [00:11:10] handed the, the, uh, what, what would you call it? The, the. 

[00:11:15] **Mikael:** producer or the. 

[00:11:16] **Mikael Genberg:** or the. 

[00:11:17] **Emil:** A 

[00:11:17] **Emil:** project manager, the project that was handed the project.[00:11:20] 

[00:11:20] **Mikael:** Yes, 

[00:11:20] **Mikael:** you had the project with the, towards the, and we had a really nice, um, it was actually a great Kirk. We were, at that time there were [00:11:30] no other, um, 

[00:11:33] **Mikael:** commercial rides to the moon or anything like that. So our plan was to construct a Swedish unmanned moon. [00:11:40] 

[00:11:40] **Mikael:** And of course the, uh, the budget was crazily so, so big that I just said, okay, cost this just a lot of money.

[00:11:47] **Mikael:** Uh, and. 

[00:11:49] **Mikael Genberg:** and. [00:11:50] 

[00:11:50] **Mikael:** so, 

[00:11:51] **Mikael:** but when the. 

[00:11:52] **Mikael Genberg:** when the, 

[00:11:53] **Mikael:** it 

[00:11:53] **Mikael:** was a 

[00:11:54] **Mikael:** tremendous journey actually. We, we, um, NASA also got in touch and said, we heard that you're going [00:12:00] to, that you have a project in Sweden. Would you like to come and, and tell us about it? And we said, yeah, let's do that. So Emil and I and a couple of other guys went to nasa Ames [00:12:10] Research Center, and the eventually said, I think we, we think you should go with us.

[00:12:16] **Mikael:** And that reduced the cost of course, immensely. We got home [00:12:20] and we were almost heroes in the space community because at that time, NASA didn't actually work with private companies, at least not in Europe. And, but then the [00:12:30] financial crisis ca came, I don't know if you, if you saw that, um. Yeah. To that. And that was all of a sudden, it was just crazy.

[00:12:38] **Mikael:** And we couldn't even [00:12:40] speak to companies because we were at that, since it was quite a lot of money. We were talking to companies about sponsoring ships and, you know, being a part of something, something Swedish. We, [00:12:50] we tried to pull all the, the threads and all the stories in order to get, get the, the money in.

[00:12:56] **Mikael:** And at that time when the financial crisis came, it just [00:13:00] went totally dead. Uh, we couldn't speak to anyone. And so we had a down, down facing curve. And then 2013, 14, we had a [00:13:10] ride again. That was quite interesting. Um, and people sometimes ask me, how can you, how is it possible for you to keep this idea, [00:13:20] uh, alive for so long?

[00:13:22] **Mikael:** Uh, and I said, it's not me. It's the idea itself. 

[00:13:25] **Mikael:** And it actually was, it actually was EML that, that, uh, found [00:13:30] this, um. Possibility of maybe going with, with a Japanese company, iSpace, 

[00:13:35] **Mikael:** uh, 

[00:13:36] **Mikael:** through a, through a, now a mutual friend at that time, somebody who was [00:13:40] working with the EM war, which you can tell more about Yemen, but did that answer your question about how it started?

[00:13:46] **Mikael:** I mean, it's a long story. Uh, 

[00:13:49] **Mikael:** basically, but, [00:13:50] but I mean, it, it was, I mean, if you are, and normally I just, uh, I, I talk to people that are not from the space industry and I I ask them, you [00:14:00] know, if you had an idea like this, how would you. 

[00:14:04] **Mikael:** how 

[00:14:04] **Mikael:** would you try, how would you even try? You know, and, and, and that's, that could be a question to you Markus as well.

[00:14:09] **Mikael:** [00:14:10] I mean, how would you do it? But the only way to do it is talk to the people you know, because this is nothing that you would even dream about trying to do yourself. So it's all [00:14:20] about getting together and finding people. And the most intriguing thing, I think is that 

[00:14:25] **Mikael Genberg:** is that. 

[00:14:26] **Mikael:** a Lot 

[00:14:26] **Mikael:** of, of course a lot of people said, that's, that's crazy.

[00:14:29] **Mikael:** I'm not [00:14:30] interested at all. But a lot of people also were intrigued by the size of it. It was bigger than any [00:14:40] person, uh, and even bigger than, than the companies in Sweden. So they were intrigued and they said, you know, I've done a lot of things in my life, but putting a house on the moon, [00:14:50] never done that. I could 

[00:14:51] **Mikael:** actually join that.

[00:14:51] **Mikael Genberg:** join that. before we get into the physics and the engineering, um, of it all, um, you, you mentioned a couple of minutes ago when the [00:15:00] first money started to come and, and flow in, uh, how do you pitch such a project to anyone out there [00:15:10] and then expect to receive money for it?

[00:15:13] **Mikael:** that's a 

[00:15:13] **Mikael:** good question. We had a really, really good, uh, guy who, he was a CEO of a big company in [00:15:20] Sweden. And um, I remember the first meeting we had with him, he sat on his day behind his desk and we told him about it and he was selling, um, 

[00:15:29] **Mikael Genberg:** um. [00:15:30] 

[00:15:30] **Mikael:** he. We were having a big copper, um, industrial company, and he said, you know what guys?

[00:15:35] **Mikael:** You are. I'm sitting on this side of the table and I'm working with selling copper, [00:15:40] and you're sitting on that side of the table. You're selling a house on the moon. 

[00:15:43] **Mikael Genberg:** the moon. 

[00:15:44] **Mikael:** I 

[00:15:44] **Mikael:** just feel that I'm sitting on the wrong side of the table, you know, and that, 

[00:15:48] **Mikael Genberg:** And then, [00:15:50] 

[00:15:50] **Mikael:** and 

[00:15:50] **Mikael:** after, 

[00:15:50] **Mikael:** and then So he started work? Yeah. So he started working with us at, uh, 

[00:15:54] **Mikael Genberg:** uh, 

[00:15:56] **Mikael:** he 

[00:15:56] **Mikael:** died in Corona, I'm afraid, uh, which is a big sadness, but, [00:16:00] but, um, but he worked and he was really good at, at, um, he had a lot of friends also in the

[00:16:05] **Markus:** Mm.

[00:16:06] **Mikael:** but one of the companies, uh, I had to invite [00:16:10] every single person in the board to launch in my studio.

[00:16:15] **Mikael:** And it was a big board. It's like 20 people, 

[00:16:18] **Mikael:** but they all came and they were like, [00:16:20] really? Okay. But then eventually, I suppose they got enough lunch money, so they said, okay, let's put a million in. 

[00:16:26] **Mikael Genberg:** a million in.

[00:16:27] **Markus:** Fantastic. Amil, how did you, how did [00:16:30] you get like involved in all of this?

[00:16:34] **Emil Vinterhav:** I 

[00:16:34] **Emil:** was the only crazy person, person crazy enough at the Swedish Base Corporation to take this. [00:16:40] So they're sort of, ah, this is a project for, and I began, yes, that's,

[00:16:44] **Markus:** Is this, is this a good sign? Is this a good sign or a bad sign? If someone says, this is a project, let's hand it [00:16:50] over to Amil.

[00:16:52] **Emil:** Uh, 

[00:16:52] **Emil:** I'd like to take difficult and challenging project so 

[00:16:57] **Emil:** it's 

[00:16:57] **Emil:** not the first time. And, [00:17:00] and, uh, sometimes they go well, and sometimes they don't. And if you're, and if they go, well, you're this really rewarding. And this one is, this one was beyond that because I felt it was, [00:17:10] 

[00:17:10] **Emil:** uh, I've done science projects and infrastructure projects and they're all good.

[00:17:16] **Emil:** They all benefit humanity. But [00:17:20] this, this project would connect to people. I've seen, I've seen so many golden projects, white and gold hero 

[00:17:28] **Emil:** projects, but this [00:17:30] one was really for, for everybody. And that really triggered me to get, get in touch

[00:17:34] **Markus:** And, and email. Um, apart from Michael and myself, you're the one in the room who [00:17:40] understands the physics of space and the, and, and the engineering of it all. So what, what was your job description back in the day when you first heard of the project?

[00:17:49] **Markus:** I, [00:17:50] 

[00:17:52] **Emil Vinterhav:** So I, 

[00:17:52] **Emil Vinterhav:** got, I 

[00:17:54] **Emil:** was a bit, sort of 

[00:17:56] **Emil:** fuzzy 

[00:17:56] **Emil:** around the edges. I, the, the [00:18:00] best, the best definition of the project was actually a, a small painting that Mika had done was the scene on the moon in the form of a postcard, when, way [00:18:10] back when the, when there were postcards, uh, and it had a scene on the moon, the house, a little Swedish flag, and then the earth in the background generate.

[00:18:19] **Emil:** That [00:18:20] was the, this was the mission.

[00:18:23] **Mikael:** Fix 

[00:18:23] **Mikael:** it, let's fix it. 

[00:18:24] **Mikael Genberg:** fix it. 

[00:18:26] **Mikael:** But 

[00:18:26] **Mikael:** I love the fact that il, at least at several [00:18:30] locations, said that of all space projects he's ever worked with, this was the most important one that I love. You know, because he, because IL also, he [00:18:40] is running, are you running two or three companies today? Ml 

[00:18:42] **Mikael Genberg:** Ml 

[00:18:43] **Mikael:** of your 

[00:18:44] **Mikael:** own

[00:18:44] **Emil:** Three is a good number. 

[00:18:45] **Emil:** Yes, 

[00:18:46] **Mikael:** three is a good number.

[00:18:47] **Mikael:** Yeah, so, so I think it's, it's a good sign that [00:18:50] he continues to say that this is the most important space project so far in his life. 

[00:18:54] **Mikael Genberg:** his life. 

[00:18:55] **Emil:** And now it's, it's the most high profile as well, I can tell you that.

[00:18:59] **Markus:** Wow. no, [00:19:00] So it's, yes, but I, I still, uh, sorry, 

[00:19:02] **Emil:** go 

[00:19:02] **Markus:** no, no, go 

[00:19:03] **Markus:** ahead. 

[00:19:03] **Emil:** No, I think it's still, it's still most important, the most, the, the project that has the potential of, of [00:19:10] changing to, to having the greatest impact. And I just love the idea that it's in its small size, it's, uh, humbleness.[00:19:20] 

[00:19:20] **Emil:** It also, 

[00:19:22] **Emil:** it's so 

[00:19:23] **Emil:** very different from other project. It doesn't have any moving parts. It doesn't have the, all the, the trimmings of a normal, [00:19:30] normal space project. It's not very technically. Uh, complicated, but still because it's so different, just having this shape in [00:19:40] space, these colors in space. This, uh, well, this, the budget constraints are really tough.

[00:19:47] **Emil:** Uh, 

[00:19:48] **Emil:** and and it's all driven [00:19:50] by a very small team of, of a private person. So, so to say it's not driven by a, by a by government. It's not driven by [00:20:00] great commercial needs. 

[00:20:03] **Emil:** We really 

[00:20:03] **Emil:** have to push it, uh, all the way ourselves, and it shows that everything is possible if you just [00:20:10] wanted bad enough,

[00:20:11] **Markus:** Fantastic. Um, it's going to into the details of the house. So what is the house made of? How big, how small is [00:20:20] it? It, does it have furniture, windows, a roof, I guess. But let's go into details about the, the, the actual building.

[00:20:29] **Mikael:** [00:20:30] The, 

[00:20:30] **Mikael:** from the, 

[00:20:31] **Mikael:** can I just say that from the beginning? 

[00:20:34] **Mikael:** My, My, 

[00:20:35] **Mikael:** idea was that it has to be big enough for a human to, to be standing [00:20:40] inside of it. So the idea was to have a house that was like four by three meters and then we, you know, sometime we talked about three by two meters, and I thought that's too [00:20:50] small.

[00:20:50] **Mikael:** Um, that was maybe my biggest mistake to, to, uh, to think that it actually had to harbor a human being. But what the idea was to throw out, [00:21:00] uh, like a box and we, we did, um, 

[00:21:02] **Mikael Genberg:** um, 

[00:21:03] **Mikael:** We 

[00:21:03] **Mikael:** did prototypes of something that could actually build itself with, uh, fill something up and, but it, it, it, [00:21:10] it, it tended to look like a tent.

[00:21:12] **Mikael:** And it, we, we did understand that, we'll, having a hard, we're gonna have a hard time making this look good. [00:21:20] Uh, but we, but I still, I was consistent with that thought. Um, and then when Il, uh, had this contact with [00:21:30] iSpace, he said, we can, we can only bring, it can only be as big as this. It's gonna be in the front of a car.

[00:21:36] **Mikael:** It can only weigh a hundred grams. And I said, that's too small. [00:21:40] And then Emil said, but Michael. You've always only talked about this image, and there's no reference, there's no point of reference on the moon. [00:21:50] You want the iconic pictures of a small red house standing on the surface of the moon as yes.

[00:21:56] **Mikael:** Doesn't matter what size it is, and it, and is it, and this is much [00:22:00] more, um, uh, climate, you know,

[00:22:03] **Mikael Genberg:** you know,

[00:22:04] **Markus:** Sustainable. 

[00:22:05] **Mikael:** yeah.

[00:22:06] **Mikael:** Sustainable. And I said, 

[00:22:07] **Mikael:** yeah, okay. Um, but then the, I [00:22:10] realized now I realize that it was more than right actually. I think it's, it's so much more poetic now that it is small, because it, it's so much more annoying to [00:22:20] people.

[00:22:20] **Mikael:** People are annoyed sometimes that it's small and they say, you know, there's more. They go like, yeah, this on earth. Yes. But the. 

[00:22:29] **Mikael:** thing is that the 

[00:22:29] **Mikael Genberg:** [00:22:30] is that the art 

[00:22:30] **Mikael:** Creates with 

[00:22:32] **Mikael:** a 

[00:22:32] **Mikael:** combination of the, the, the house is basically nothing. The house is just, you know, here on earth, but on the moon [00:22:40] it will be like, um, like Carl Sagan said, but um, but Earth, it's the pale blue dot.

[00:22:48] **Mikael:** This will be the pale [00:22:50] red dot on, on the moon. And the size really, really is in it. Actually, I would say size doesn't matter, but, but it does. And I think actually it's a, [00:23:00] it's, um, it, it, it's also becomes more 

[00:23:04] **Mikael:** childish 

[00:23:05] **Mikael:** in 

[00:23:05] **Mikael:** a way. And, and one of my target groups is the eight year olds, also the eight year [00:23:10] within us.

[00:23:10] **Mikael:** And it, it becomes, it becomes, uh, 

[00:23:14] **Mikael:** fragile also from a mental point of view that it isn't big and, and, you know, well, are we [00:23:20] succeeding to, you know, it, it is a, it's just a symbol. Uh, 

[00:23:23] **Mikael Genberg:** Uh, 

[00:23:25] **Mikael:** you 

[00:23:25] **Mikael:** can happy to fill in there. I mean, you, you know, more. 

[00:23:28] **Mikael Genberg:** know, more. 

[00:23:29] **Emil Vinterhav:** And that [00:23:30] the 

[00:23:30] **Emil:** When I got the picture 

[00:23:31] **Emil:** in my hand, the requirement. Image. And the first thing I did was go, I called Mic Miguel and, and we set up a meeting Ro me and Hoke and [00:23:40] his friend, we had pizzas. And we discussed if there were more requirements and there were two requirements more came outta that meeting. One was that it was, should be big enough for someone to be inside.[00:23:50] 

[00:23:50] **Emil:** So that was the one thing. And the second one was, you can't land it, land it upside down. So those two, I, I got to change the, the first one of those. The second one I'm still worried about. So [00:24:00] let's see where we, 

[00:24:01] **Emil:** we have, 

[00:24:02] **Markus:** So it shouldn't, so you worried about it, it landing on its roof?

[00:24:08] **Emil:** it, where we 

[00:24:09] **Emil:** have [00:24:10] we're, 

[00:24:11] **Emil:** we have been paid very much attention to it. Not doing 

[00:24:13] **Emil:** so say, but it is, uh, I mean it's uh, like everything on the moon, many are [00:24:20] many are, are, are challenged to, to land on the moon. And, um, uh, well, many have failed. Put it that way. It's uh, it's, uh, [00:24:30] it's a challenge and we will be very, 

[00:24:32] **Emil:** very 

[00:24:32] **Mikael:** But if it would, it would, 

[00:24:34] **Mikael:** if 

[00:24:34] **Mikael:** it 

[00:24:34] **Mikael:** would land on the roof, uh, you would take some pictures and actually inside it says, [00:24:40] oh shit. 

[00:24:41] **Markus:** Ha, ha. Does it does it does it for real.

[00:24:45] **Mikael:** Yeah. 

[00:24:46] **Mikael:** Yeah.

[00:24:46] **Mikael Genberg:** Yeah. 

[00:24:47] **Markus:** I don't like

[00:24:47] **Mikael:** There is no, yeah.

[00:24:49] **Markus:** I like it by [00:24:50] by the way, on my way to, to our interview, um, our recording right now, on my way in the, on the public transport, I was thinking, how would I [00:25:00] construct that house so it doesn't fall over? It, it, it will always be in place properly. So I love that challenge already.

[00:25:08] **Markus:** I don't have a [00:25:10] solution. It wouldn't matter anyways, anymore because it's already on route. Um, but it's a fun challenge. 

[00:25:16] **Markus:** So, um, 

[00:25:18] **Emil:** if I can add more there, I think to, [00:25:20] to the whole, whole, whole picture there. iSpace takes us 400,000 kilometers to the moon. By way of a detour of 1.1 [00:25:30] million kilometers. They land on the moon. They take us another few meters outside the lander, and then we are responsible for the eight last centimeters.

[00:25:38] **Emil:** So out of [00:25:40] more than 1.1 million kilometers, we have eight centimeters to worry about. And those are very worrisome with the centimeters.

[00:25:47] **Mikael:** most important. Later dog.

[00:25:49] **Emil:** [00:25:50] Uh, definitely.

[00:25:52] **Markus:** before, be. Before we get to that, let's talk about the, the actual, the, the house itself. What it is [00:26:00] made of. Is it, does it have to be lunar proof, moon proof, or is it designed from wood and the traditional [00:26:10] Swedish paint?

[00:26:11] **Emil:** that's

[00:26:12] **Emil:** that's interesting. Um, one of the first questions you get, how do you, how do you get the people up there to build it? That's one of the questions. I, I [00:26:20] frequently get on, on building a house on the moon. No,

[00:26:23] **Markus:** You're kidding. 

[00:26:24] **Emil:** that's sort of, uh, but uh, are they sending astronauts? No, no. It's sort of, 

[00:26:27] **Emil:** it's course, yes. Construction [00:26:30] workers. 

[00:26:31] **Emil:** Yeah. 

[00:26:31] **Emil:** And that would be amazing if we could do that with, uh, with planks and, and hammers and nails and stuff. That would be amazing. But

[00:26:38] **Mikael:** It will be the next project. [00:26:40] yeah. And then we have, we had this, a whole, whole, uh, evolution from the, the foldable deployable house. And now we're down to, we're working with a very, [00:26:50] 

[00:26:51] **Emil:** very 

[00:26:51] **Emil:** interesting company doing 3D printed materials.

[00:26:53] **Emil:** So it's 3D printed aluminum 

[00:26:55] **Emil:** with, uh, their, we had them to push their. 

[00:26:59] **Emil:** [00:27:00] Their, 

[00:27:00] **Emil:** uh, 

[00:27:00] **Emil:** capabilities to really, to have a very thin wall size on the house to keep co, keep masks down. 

[00:27:08] **Emil:** So 3D 

[00:27:09] **Emil:** [00:27:10] printed aluminum, uh, to the correct shape, 

[00:27:13] **Emil:** and then me galles hand painted it with paint that we had to, to qualify ourselves to, [00:27:20] to be compatible with launch.

[00:27:22] **Emil:** Because of does that mean? 

[00:27:23] **Mikael Genberg:** are. 

[00:27:25] **Emil:** um, 

[00:27:25] **Emil:** in, 

[00:27:27] **Emil:** in typically in, in, 

[00:27:28] **Emil:** launching things into space, you don't [00:27:30] want to disturb other, other equipment on board, right? So if, if a, a paint is typically, uh, pigment in some [00:27:40] sort of a solution or an

[00:27:41] **Markus:** Mm-hmm.

[00:27:42] **Emil:** and you 

[00:27:43] **Emil:** don't 

[00:27:43] **Emil:** want this, this, uh, 

[00:27:46] **Emil:** uh, 

[00:27:46] **Emil:** this epoxy or this glue to start evaporating and [00:27:50] deposit on other, other pieces of equipment causing either distortions in optics or

[00:27:55] **Markus:** Mm-hmm. 

[00:27:56] **Emil:** or other disturbances anywhere.

[00:27:58] **Emil:** It shouldn't flake. [00:28:00] 

[00:28:00] **Emil:** So we 

[00:28:01] **Emil:** have tested it for that. We found a paint that could withstand the stress of being launched that would not out gas 

[00:28:09] **Emil:** in, 

[00:28:09] **Emil:** [00:28:10] uh, 

[00:28:10] **Emil:** in according to standard, or it would keep within standards outgassing. So now we are proudly the only ones I believe, [00:28:20] or one of very few, that have a space qualified paint that is not white or black.

[00:28:27] **Markus:** There you got your business 

[00:28:28] **Markus:** model. 

[00:28:29] **Emil:** [00:28:30] There we go. small. It's a small niche, 

[00:28:33] **Mikael:** but it could be good. 

[00:28:36] **Markus:** Is it, is it, by the way, 

[00:28:37] **Markus:** is it, is it true that the [00:28:40] traditional, the reddish color paint in Sweden is, has or is connected to the copper [00:28:50] industry? Like the, the, the, um, because some of the, the products or the waste products from copper mining, is that [00:29:00] color, is that true?

[00:29:00] **Markus:** I. 

[00:29:01] **Mikael:** correct. It's, 

[00:29:02] **Mikael:** uh, it's from one mine only and they took up, this is, um, 

[00:29:09] **Mikael Genberg:** [00:29:10] um, 

[00:29:11] **Mikael:** uh, 

[00:29:11] **Mikael:** like,

[00:29:12] **Mikael Genberg:** like, 

[00:29:13] **Mikael:** like

[00:29:13] **Mikael Genberg:** like

[00:29:13] **Mikael Genberg:** a

[00:29:14] **Mikael:** a rest 

[00:29:14] **Mikael:** product. 

[00:29:15] **Mikael:** Uh, they have piles of it and it's still are the same piles, [00:29:20] and they, they're not using that copper mine anymore. 

[00:29:22] **Mikael:** So it's quite old. um, 

[00:29:25] **Mikael Genberg:** um, 

[00:29:26] **Mikael:** Product that they're 

[00:29:26] **Mikael:** using. And when that's, that, when that's finished, there will be [00:29:30] no more, uh, red painted house.

[00:29:32] **Mikael:** They will all 

[00:29:33] **Mikael:** be after that. They will all be white. 

[00:29:35] **Mikael:** No, I don't know. But, but, but yeah. Yeah. No, No, [00:29:40] 

[00:29:40] **Mikael:** it's 

[00:29:40] **Mikael:** called 

[00:29:40] **Mikael:** the far red. It's from Farland. It's a town in Sweden.

[00:29:44] **Mikael Genberg:** in Sweden. 

[00:29:44] **Markus:** Ah, yes, absolutely. Great. That's a great story. Sorry to, [00:29:50] yeah, no, go ahead.

[00:29:50] **Mikael:** no, 

[00:29:51] **Mikael:** that's, that's lovely. Um, uh, the painting itself was, uh, it was a bit of an issue because, um, we, we, we did [00:30:00] have maybe the possibility of some companies that could create paint for us. It would be super expensive, but they wanted them to, and, and I said, no, [00:30:10] I, I really would like to paint it myself, you know, with brushes and so on.

[00:30:13] **Mikael:** And we found this paint and, and they said, yeah, you have to have a clean room. And I said, what is that? And then, you [00:30:20] know, one of these rooms that are plastics. And I, so I, I, I said, okay, so I bought this plastics that you use when you paint at home. So I, I 

[00:30:28] **Mikael:** just pla it in a whole room. [00:30:30] And I bought this kind of clothes that covers you up and a gas mask.

[00:30:35] **Mikael:** And I, I asked ice space if, is this okay? And they said, yeah, that looks good. You know, [00:30:40] looks 

[00:30:40] **Mikael:** good. It's my kitchen in a house that is actually also red, uh, built 1758. 

[00:30:47] **Mikael:** it's, 

[00:30:48] **Mikael:** it's, 

[00:30:48] **Mikael:** quite, it's, it's a lot of things [00:30:50] that is quite kind of poetic

[00:30:51] **Markus:** I picture, I picture, ha have you ever seen breaking bed like the series? 

[00:30:56] **Markus:** Like I I, it's like the meth lab in your [00:31:00] own, in your own room, right?

[00:31:01] **Mikael:** Ex exactly, exactly like the MET Lab in, in, that's a very good, uh, 

[00:31:06] **Mikael Genberg:** uh,

[00:31:07] **Emil:** I, I don't, I don't, know anyone with a [00:31:10] meth lab at home, but I, Miguel is one, only two people I know has got a clean room at home.

[00:31:14] **Mikael:** yeah, 

[00:31:14] **Mikael:** yeah.

[00:31:15] **Mikael:** yeah, 

[00:31:15] **Mikael Genberg:** yeah,

[00:31:17] **Markus:** Alright, so, 

[00:31:18] **Markus:** so it's hand painted. Um, [00:31:20] so you, you mixed the color or found the color somewhere and then you hand painted it.

[00:31:27] **Mikael:** It's 

[00:31:28] **Mikael:** a 

[00:31:28] **Mikael:** ceramic, it's a ceramic paint, [00:31:30] and it had to then be, uh, be inside an, an oven very strictly going up to certain 

[00:31:36] **Mikael:** high level of temperature and then very slightly got down. [00:31:40] Um, so I found an oven that could do that. Um, and they, I, they let me borrow 

[00:31:45] **Mikael:** it. borrow it. 

[00:31:47] **Markus:** What's on the inside of the building? What's on

[00:31:49] **Markus:** the [00:31:50] inside

[00:31:50] **Mikael:** the inside is not the, the inside.

[00:31:52] **Mikael:** The inside is the only thing inside is that we did, uh, write down, uh, I think two Bitcoins numbers, [00:32:00] Bitcoin numbers, and then we threw the, the numbers away. So if you, if you ever go up there, 

[00:32:04] **Mikael Genberg:** there, 

[00:32:06] **Mikael:** it'll be really rich. Or maybe we didn't,

[00:32:09] **Mikael Genberg:** [00:32:10] didn't, 

[00:32:11] **Markus:** I 

[00:32:11] **Markus:** love it. 

[00:32:11] **Mikael:** it's, uh, yeah.

[00:32:13] **Mikael Genberg:** yeah, 

[00:32:13] **Markus:** I love it. 

[00:32:14] **Markus:** Did you, did you leave any secret message, like a personal message? I [00:32:20] was thinking on my way to the interview, I was like, how would I hide messages inside such an art project? Maybe like [00:32:30] inside the color in, there's a pattern or underneath the color or whatnot. So now is time for truth.

[00:32:37] **Markus:** What kind of message did you 

[00:32:39] **Markus:** leave [00:32:40] inside? 

[00:32:41] **Mikael:** of course we did. But if, if we would tell you it wouldn't be a secret anymore, somebody will have to go there. We had a guy, I, [00:32:50] uh, 

[00:32:50] **Mikael Genberg:** uh, 

[00:32:52] **Mikael:** I 

[00:32:52] **Mikael:** was, uh, he was, uh, employed by us for a year in engineer. Uh, he was creating the, the structures and so on, [00:33:00] and he told his children, who are now like six, seven years, he said, when I turn, when you guys turn 50, if I'm alive, [00:33:10] I will take you guys to the house on the moon.

[00:33:13] **Markus:** Mm,

[00:33:13] **Markus:** Hmm.

[00:33:14] **Mikael:** I, 

[00:33:14] **Mikael:** I think, I think, I think, maybe he will, or maybe he won't. 

[00:33:18] **Mikael Genberg:** he won't.

[00:33:18] **Mikael Genberg:** but

[00:33:19] **Mikael:** He [00:33:20] starts saving money Yeah, yeah. About the secret. I know for a fact you scratch something down on the on the inside and I couldn't read it, so maybe that's the secret, right?[00:33:30] 

[00:33:30] **Markus:** wow. What a story. 

[00:33:31] **Mikael:** in that house.

[00:33:32] **Mikael Genberg:** house. 

[00:33:32] **Markus:** What a story. Great. So you, you together with email, um, [00:33:40] you got. got all the ingredients and the coloring and the messaging and the Bitcoin codes and whatnot, everything together. Where did the money come from [00:33:50] for, for this project?

[00:33:52] **Mikael:** So, 

[00:33:52] **Mikael:** so 

[00:33:53] **Mikael:** that's an excellent question. I'm so happy to be able to answer it because, uh, when we started it was such a big budget and they were, [00:34:00] I told you we, we wanted companies to come in. It was always a bit, um. Distracting how to actually allow something, you know, because we wanted [00:34:10] it still to be art. And now, uh, this time we, 

[00:34:14] **Mikael Genberg:** we, 

[00:34:15] **Mikael:** um, 

[00:34:16] **Mikael:** we, we 

[00:34:16] **Mikael:** said, let's make a, let's make a, uh, a listed [00:34:20] company and let's, uh, see if we can find shareholders.

[00:34:23] **Mikael:** Um, and so we basically went out to what you normally call family, friends [00:34:30] and fools, 

[00:34:31] **Mikael:** and asked them if they wanted to invest in a house on the moon. And to our, at least to my big surprise, it, it [00:34:40] actually went quite fast and people were, um, so it's private money and it's, uh, it's put in without any request of any. 

[00:34:49] **Mikael Genberg:** of any. [00:34:50] 

[00:34:50] **Mikael:** logo 

[00:34:51] **Mikael:** types or symbols or anything like that? No. State money? No, uh, nothing. Um, that people who pay tax would, would have to be, [00:35:00] uh, irritated over or anything like that. It's just, just 70 people who are, who are actually going to own this house on the moon. 

[00:35:08] **Mikael Genberg:** on the moon. 

[00:35:08] **Markus:** Wow. [00:35:10] Fantastic story. And then, um, you already mentioned you got, you were approached by nasa. Um, how did that work? I mean, like did the phone just ring or did [00:35:20] you get an email in your inbox? How did that work?

[00:35:23] **Markus:** I. 

[00:35:24] **Mikael:** it was, 

[00:35:25] **Mikael:** it was actually, uh. I think the com I don't, I think it was Fre Bruen who [00:35:30] had the communication first. And he said that he, he had been speaking to people from nasa and then they, then they reached out to us. It wasn't just a, um, a f like a fluke, [00:35:40] uh, uh, message, but they, but they were intrigued and they asked us to come.

[00:35:44] **Mikael:** Um, now it didn't le it didn't lead to anything in, because of the, the financial crisis. And [00:35:50] also NASA got in big troubles with the financial crisis at that time. Uh, but it was, um, 

[00:35:55] **Mikael Genberg:** um, 

[00:35:56] **Mikael:** it 

[00:35:57] **Mikael:** was 

[00:35:58] **Mikael:** also a very good [00:36:00] signal for us that we're onto something that 

[00:36:03] **Mikael:** is actually carries 

[00:36:05] **Mikael:** something of 

[00:36:06] **Mikael:** interest even for nasa.

[00:36:08] **Mikael Genberg:** nasa. 

[00:36:08] **Markus:** Yes.

[00:36:09] **Emil:** [00:36:10] And especially when, when the crisis came struck later, we had that sort of to as encouragement to, to 

[00:36:17] **Emil:** weather all that time when it was really [00:36:20] difficult.

[00:36:21] **Markus:** mm. Emil, what is it, uh, what is it like to work with an artist? Does it drive you crazy or inspire 

[00:36:27] **Markus:** you? 

[00:36:29] **Emil:** This inspires me. [00:36:30] It rarely drives me crazy. Sometimes I get, uh, uh, the ideas that come from Mika sort of taken outta the blue. But, uh, [00:36:40] as an engineer, we're very much standardized. We're doing things the right way in space. We cannot afford to fail, and that sometimes causes us to, [00:36:50] 

[00:36:50] **Emil:** to 

[00:36:50] **Emil:** be too 

[00:36:51] **Emil:** boxed in, in our thinking.

[00:36:52] **Emil:** So getting that outside perspective of someone who hasn't done it before, doesn't know the standards and just [00:37:00] thinks freely and this is how I would do it. And then you, you get that, uh, you, you get inspired by it and, and. And you, you start to think [00:37:10] yourself, why am I doing this? 

[00:37:11] **Emil:** And it can actually be something that 

[00:37:12] **Emil Vinterhav:** that 

[00:37:14] **Emil:** propels you to. 

[00:37:15] **Emil Vinterhav:** to do better 

[00:37:15] **Markus:** we, had, we, in, in an early episode, we had, [00:37:20] um, I. A a curator from the Austrian Pavilion at the Art and Architecture Biennale in Venice. [00:37:30] And, um, we spoke about the importance of art in, um, science and engineering and in our case, in the space industry. and and I [00:37:40] think this also holds true for what you are experiencing, that the artist asked questions that a scientist [00:37:50] may not ask because it, they make no sense for the actual science, but they, they you as a scientist to think beyond [00:38:00] structural or, or, trusted boundaries.

[00:38:05] **Markus:** Um, and I think this is, this is why, um, [00:38:10] this is why I. In the United States. You can, I dunno, about right now, but there is, um, the a in stem coming [00:38:20] back, art, um, so a stem turning 

[00:38:22] **Markus:** into steam. And I think this is a, a beautiful, a beautiful symbolism of [00:38:30] what has been separated for too long. So to bring back the artist into those traditional, uh, scientific fields.[00:38:40] 

[00:38:40] **Markus:** So perhaps it was a little lengthy now, but, um, I can see from how I perceive you interacting with one another that this is a [00:38:50] very inspiring and fruitful co uh, collaboration.

[00:38:55] **Emil:** I 

[00:38:55] **Emil:** I, No, uh, I, it wasn't, I love it. 

[00:38:57] **Mikael Genberg:** I love it. 

[00:38:58] **Emil:** yeah, 

[00:38:59] **Emil:** I 

[00:38:59] **Emil:** think so too. And [00:39:00] it, to me, I, I, I like the idea of, when you say bringing art back to science, I think it's bringing science and engineering back to people to get them to [00:39:10] connect with something. So it, it's, uh, two, two sides of the same thing, but, uh, very much in what I think about this project.

[00:39:17] **Markus:** yes. 

[00:39:17] **Mikael:** We had, 

[00:39:18] **Mikael:** uh, one, [00:39:20] one guy that after that, uh, became a, a shareholder in the company. They asked another guy, he was asking him, do you wanna be a, a shareholder in the company? [00:39:30] Uh, he said, but. 

[00:39:30] **Mikael Genberg:** said, but 

[00:39:32] **Mikael:** Is it 

[00:39:32] **Mikael:** really relevant to put a house on the moon? And then, uh, our mutual friend, Hans, he said, and she said, [00:39:40] uh, we, we won't know that, uh, before we put it there.

[00:39:44] **Mikael:** Uh, so then he came in. Uh, but I, I can, I can honestly say that I think it's already, uh, [00:39:50] proven to be relevant in that sense that when we launched the house, uh, the a January 15 1 11, uh, at Kennedy [00:40:00] Space Center, um, 

[00:40:02] **Mikael:** we 

[00:40:03] **Mikael:** had 

[00:40:03] **Mikael:** a. 

[00:40:04] **Mikael:** a tremendous um. Media attention, which is great. But the, the most [00:40:10] interesting thing was that people were inspired enough to create songs, send us songs, and a lot of children, you know, in schools make drawings.

[00:40:19] **Mikael:** There [00:40:20] was this 

[00:40:20] **Mikael Genberg:** was this 

[00:40:21] **Mikael:** school 

[00:40:22] **Mikael:** bus 

[00:40:22] **Mikael:** driver from Ohio, he said that, you know, this is so great, and I've been telling all the children about it that, you know, and, and some [00:40:30] kids in Sweden, some school, they made furnitures for the house, small furniture that I wanted to send. Um, and at that time, when, when that happens, I [00:40:40] really feel that it is relevant, um, that people get inspired with something Because, because there is a lot of things happening in space and people don't really have understood that now [00:40:50] that that we have 

[00:40:51] **Mikael Genberg:** have 

[00:40:52] **Mikael:** quite.

[00:40:53] **Mikael:** Weak relationship to space, actually. I mean, uh, and, and, and, and under and understanding. And [00:41:00] people say, why should you do things in space? That's, that's, that's absurd because we were already so much doing things in space. It's just that it's not visible. People are, we we're [00:41:10] not communicating in to, to people's hearts.

[00:41:13] **Mikael:** And, and so the, I think this is, um, this is why when tic we bring space to people and, and [00:41:20] people to space or hu 

[00:41:21] **Mikael:** humor to, 

[00:41:22] **Mikael:** and I, so it's, it's, um, 

[00:41:24] **Mikael Genberg:** um, 

[00:41:26] **Mikael:** and 

[00:41:26] **Mikael:** it's 

[00:41:27] **Mikael:** so lovely to, to feel that it's, it's [00:41:30] inspiring and I think when it's landing, it, it, it, let's see, I mean, it will be standing there then for thousands and thousands and maybe millions of years.

[00:41:37] **Mikael:** And, and, and the importance might [00:41:40] actually grow in time. Who knows? And I understand that people has quite a poor understanding. I mean, a lot of people ask me, how do you actually get the house to stand there? [00:41:50] Because they think as soon as you're in space, there's no gravity. Everything is just floating around, you know?

[00:41:55] **Mikael:** And so I have to explain how the, how the moon works. And so it's, it's also, [00:42:00] 

[00:42:00] **Mikael:** I 

[00:42:00] **Mikael:** think it's also could be a, an educational, um, importance in it. Uh, and [00:42:10] you know, there's, and when you're interested in space, you, you follow what's happening in space. But a lot of people, they have No idea. 

[00:42:17] **Mikael:** No idea. 

[00:42:18] **Mikael Genberg:** No idea. 

[00:42:19] **Mikael:** I 

[00:42:19] **Mikael:** mean, like [00:42:20] Emmi said, there are the, are people going there to actually build a house?

[00:42:23] **Mikael:** They have no idea about the complexity. And neither did I, uh, when, when Emmi said, we have to make it in [00:42:30] aluminum, I said, they, how hard can that be? So I went to the hardware shop and I, I bought, I bought the plate and I just, you know, I, and I made it into one piece, and then I bought some [00:42:40] glue. And I, because a, ah, we have to do, I said, how hard can that be?

[00:42:44] **Mikael:** So I made this house and a said, yeah, okay, we can try it. We can try it. So we took it to, [00:42:50] um, the, um. K-H-T-K-H-T-H-K-K. The, the, yeah, the, the, yeah, the, the [00:43:00] technical, uh, university in Stockholm and checked it, and it just broke just immediately that, you know, so, but it was, uh, it was the first[00:43:10] 

[00:43:10] **Markus:** Is it the one that you built, that you built, fell apart and then email had to take over? 

[00:43:14] **Markus:** Right. Okay. 

[00:43:15] **Markus:** Okay. 

[00:43:16] **Mikael:** No, he 

[00:43:16] **Mikael:** was

[00:43:17] **Emil:** I like that story. was, it was, it was, but [00:43:20] yeah, it was like that, but I was just too eager, so I said, you know, I can't, we just, you take a piece of plate and make it, and, and Neel was patient, like he, he would 

[00:43:29] **Mikael:** be [00:43:30] to his children, so he said, no, that, that's okay,

[00:43:32] **Emil:** It was a very good test. I mean, it showed

[00:43:35] **Emil:** you just how dramatic it is

[00:43:37] **Mikael:** Yeah, it's, a, on a launch vehicle. Yes. [00:43:40] But I, I think, uh, this, uh, what you're talking about with a, with a, with where everybody in space is screaming about space and it's really hard to break through because we're all [00:43:50] screaming the same thing.

[00:43:51] **Emil:** Like, look, it's another satellite. It's fantastic. It's like the Apollo, even the Apollo missions were sort of, people didn't report about them after the sixth landing because they said, okay, [00:44:00] it's, they're on the moon again. I mean, that's, that's sounds crazy now, but that's how it was. And here we have a mission that really is on the side of everything [00:44:10] and the, uh, with the house on the moon, it's so personal that once you see it as, as anyone can see it, you get to stand there with the house and look back on [00:44:20] earth.

[00:44:20] **Emil:** That is really, that's poetic poet poetry to me. There is, 

[00:44:25] **Emil:** uh, there was, yeah, so. yeah, I think, um, [00:44:30] what's different about this project as opposed to, I mean, like we have, there is human stuff on the moon and has been for [00:44:40] decades now, but what's different now is that we can relate to a house a lot more than to a lander or to a poop bag [00:44:50] or to whatever, um, is left on the moon.

[00:44:53] **Markus:** So I think this is a, a different kind of poetry that we're seeing here because [00:45:00] we all live in houses and we have no connection to landers. So this is why this is a completely different bag.[00:45:10] 

[00:45:11] **Mikael:** A 

[00:45:11] **Mikael:** house, at 

[00:45:11] **Mikael:** least in Sweden, a house is all about life and death, isn't it? I mean, it's, uh,

[00:45:16] **Markus:** You are born in it. 

[00:45:17] **Mikael:** it, 

[00:45:17] **Mikael:** it's, 

[00:45:17] **Mikael:** it's a part of existence in, in [00:45:20] a real sense and land. And we lu the land isn't, uh, uh, so, so that, that's really, that's what it's about to, to actually see the moon, but also of course see the [00:45:30] earth, you know, like, uh, it's like, uh, 

[00:45:33] **Mikael Genberg:** uh, 

[00:45:34] **Mikael:** the house is quite like earth in a sense.

[00:45:37] **Mikael Genberg:** in a sense. 

[00:45:37] **Markus:** You know 

[00:45:37] **Markus:** what's, you know

[00:45:38] **Markus:** what's, you know it's, you [00:45:40] know, it's, truly crazy because you mentioned, um, our understanding or non-understanding of many things. It's truly [00:45:50] crazy to picture the 21st century that we live in and how little we know about so many things. So for example. [00:46:00] Um, we all have seen the moon in the sky and we know what it looks like, but we have absolutely no understanding how far away the moon is.

[00:46:09] **Markus:** It's [00:46:10] crazy far. I'm not telling you anything new, but we just, people just feel like you got this huge balloon out there. It's just in your neighborhood. [00:46:20] It's just not in your neighborhood. It's just huge and very, very, very, very far away. And I think this is also something that most of the people, [00:46:30] including myself before I, for the first time, I saw the actual distance, uh, understand and there's so many things we don't understand.

[00:46:38] **Emil Vinterhav:** Yes, 

[00:46:39] **Emil:** yes. [00:46:40] There's 

[00:46:40] **Emil:** uh, 

[00:46:40] **Mikael:** agree with you. And, and it, it's, it's cha it's changed my life in, in, you know, it changed my life in the way I see, especially, I mean, I mean, you just look at the moon and you [00:46:50] realize how people thousands of years were looking at it, just astounded what the hell is that thing? You know? And, and I, I, I think that people are, the [00:47:00] problem is now that I think people were more interested in the moon at that, uh, time of, of, uh, mankind than we are today.

[00:47:07] **Mikael:** We're just so, so [00:47:10] interested in our cell phones. Uh, and so

[00:47:13] **Markus:** we're looking downward. 

[00:47:14] **Mikael:** act Yes, yes, 

[00:47:16] **Mikael Genberg:** yes, 

[00:47:17] **Emil:** don't look up.

[00:47:17] **Mikael Genberg:** exactly. 

[00:47:19] **Markus:** Don't look up. [00:47:20] 

[00:47:20] **Emil:** Don't look. 

[00:47:22] **Emil:** Uh, 

[00:47:23] **Emil:** this, this, uh, when we're talking about this, this, I, over the years, I've been with doing this with me for 15 years now. [00:47:30] There's, and I've met so many people. I've told so many people about this, and every time, sort of first they're sort of okay. That sounds crazy. And then [00:47:40] most people, 

[00:47:42] **Emil:** they

[00:47:42] **Emil:** turn around and say, 

[00:47:45] **Emil:** Isn't it like this? Or It's really amazing technology. Or it's, [00:47:50] imagine that, do you, do you want to make a, do you wanna have a flag there or wouldn't you want to, to furnish it? What, what curtains would you want to have? And everybody sort of gets their own idea of what [00:48:00] they want to do with the house. It's really, uh, it's amazing to hear everyone's idea what the house is.

[00:48:07] **Emil:** To me, that's, that's why this is, that's the art [00:48:10] part of this sort of it stimulation.

[00:48:11] **Emil Vinterhav:** I thing a lot. 

[00:48:13] **Markus:** I'm just, I'm, I'm picturing myself right, right now. Um, if you were to ask me how would you [00:48:20] decorate the inside, how would you, what kind of furniture would you want to see inside? Then I'm picturing myself asking those questions, like, how many people [00:48:30] live in that house? Um, is it young people? Is it a family?

[00:48:34] **Markus:** Is it two old? Is it an old couple? Maybe? How do I see them right [00:48:40] now? I see them sleeping next to one another in the sleeping room, in the bed for whatever reason. I'm, I'm, I'm picturing this right now, but, um, [00:48:50] then this, this produces quite a bit of inspiration already, how to furniture and, and breathe life into this place on the end.

[00:48:57] **Markus:** Side, maybe this is one of the reasons you left [00:49:00] it, you left it empty for, for people to fill it with ideas.

[00:49:06] **Mikael:** We can all be there at the same time. 

[00:49:08] **Mikael Genberg:** time. 

[00:49:09] **Markus:** Mm 

[00:49:09] **Mikael:** You [00:49:10] know, it 

[00:49:10] **Mikael:** can, it 

[00:49:10] **Mikael:** could fill up all, sometimes people say It's so small, but I say, nah, it's actually too big because it, it, it can actually, [00:49:20] everything that is alive on the moon right now will actually be, be fitted in that house.

[00:49:25] **Mikael Genberg:** house. 

[00:49:25] **Markus:** mm. 

[00:49:27] **Mikael:** So, 

[00:49:28] **Mikael:** but, but it's lovely to hear you [00:49:30] Markus also talk about it because, because it's also inspired to, I I think that the, the young generation, the, the children, I, I think that they are, I mean we [00:49:40] are harmed already so much or what to say, but, but also host grownups can, can 

[00:49:47] **Mikael Genberg:** can 

[00:49:47] **Mikael:** move 

[00:49:48] **Mikael:** their consciousness up to the [00:49:50] house.

[00:49:50] **Mikael:** But I think especially children will, will be able to, you know, ah, to fantasize about what, what is that house? It's a house on the moon and, and uh, uh, 

[00:49:59] **Mikael Genberg:** uh, [00:50:00] 

[00:50:00] **Mikael:** and, 

[00:50:00] **Mikael:** that's, uh, it would be lovely if it works like

[00:50:04] **Markus:** Yes, And it, it seems that. it already does. 

[00:50:07] **Mikael Genberg:** does. 

[00:50:08] **Markus:** so now that the [00:50:10] house in our little story that we're telling here is still in Sweden, so we need to get it outta Sweden now. Um, up. [00:50:20] Orbit. So let's, let's continue with that story. So you got the house finished, you got the design finished, you had the call from nasa. What then what Next [00:50:30] 

[00:50:31] **Emil:** X is 

[00:50:31] **Emil:** to, so we have the design finished, now we have to test it going. This is a space mission. It's a fully fledged space mission with all the requirements, all the [00:50:40] trimmings that need to go into a space mission. So we, we had to qualify it. It's been shaken, like the first test was a call it with a development test.

[00:50:48] **Emil:** And it was really [00:50:50] successful in that it showed that there needs to be serious thought put into the design, a bit more engineering. Uh, so first we, we did [00:51:00] analysis. We did the test to verify the analysis, uh, both in terms of mechanical, and we tested it in vacuum. We tested it for the thermal [00:51:10] loads that it will see when it's still mounted on the rover in space, on the moon.

[00:51:16] **Emil:** Uh, 

[00:51:16] **Emil:** we've done actual, uh, [00:51:20] drop tests with the lunar, the, the lunar simulator in colo. 

[00:51:25] **Emil:** So going around with the rover. In cologne, dropping the [00:51:30] house on, on a simulated moon surface to verify that it actually lands on the right keel. 

[00:51:36] **Emil:** So 

[00:51:36] **Emil:** we are quite confident that it'll, 

[00:51:37] **Emil Vinterhav:** will, 

[00:51:39] **Emil:** uh, 

[00:51:39] **Emil:** we [00:51:40] only, so we're following up a lot with this too, to define the, the landing site that we, we really need.

[00:51:47] **Emil:** But it's been tested, qualified. We had a review with, [00:51:50] with Ice Space that said, okay, so it looks like you tested everything, everything is okay. 

[00:51:55] **Emil:** Uh, 

[00:51:55] **Emil:** we delivered the house. We've made three houses, by the way. First a [00:52:00] qualification house that's been with ice space for quite some time. They've tested on the rover, 

[00:52:06] **Emil:** uh, 

[00:52:07] **Emil:** not 

[00:52:08] **Emil:** in, in different, uh, space [00:52:10] environments.

[00:52:10] **Emil:** They sent it to Japan to test it on the lander. 

[00:52:15] **Emil:** And then from there, sort of the mounting the flight, the flight rover doing acceptance [00:52:20] tests with the rover, with the rover on the lander, and then sent over to.

[00:52:26] **Emil:** to Florida 

[00:52:26] **Emil:** to 

[00:52:27] **Emil:** be,

[00:52:28] **Markus:** did, mounted? how, [00:52:30] how did those iSpace testing folks and NASA, et cetera, react to all this? Is this just a piece of cargo so it could be [00:52:40] any kind of cargo a hundred gram cargo, or are they like making fun of it? Also that 

[00:52:46] **Emil:** No, no, no, with a house. 

[00:52:49] **Markus:** Okay. 

[00:52:49] **Emil:** it's 

[00:52:49] **Emil:** [00:52:50] uh, it's quite the opposite. It's, uh, when we, I think when we pitched the idea first I met with Antoine, uh, the engineer, KTH or he's a student at KTH and [00:53:00] working at iSpace at the same time in, in Luxembourg. So that's how we, we, we met up, I asked him if he could take a house to the moon and he said, of course we can.

[00:53:09] **Emil:** And then [00:53:10] we, we continued the discussion from there and, uh, then he brought it to his team in, in Luxembourg. And we came down there and they were amazed. We were really well welcome. [00:53:20] And they sort of, it felt like they had adopted the house. 

[00:53:23] **Emil:** This is our house. We really like it. And I think it's been the same thing with the, when the house has been around [00:53:30] Europe and then in Japan, there's a lot of attention on the house and, 

[00:53:35] **Emil:** uh. 

[00:53:37] **Emil:** maybe more than they would [00:53:40] really care to, to admit, but 

[00:53:43] **Emil:** in 

[00:53:43] **Emil:** in different ways. We hear these story snippets that trickle out to us of that. Um, you had [00:53:50] the Archduke of Luxembourg 

[00:53:53] **Emil:** visiting

[00:53:53] **Emil:** iSpace, seeing the rover, and he was like, that house is really cool. 

[00:53:58] **Emil:** And he's 

[00:53:59] **Emil:** invited us to [00:54:00] come and, uh, 

[00:54:02] **Emil:** he wants, uh, to be more connected to the house. Put it that way as I understand.

[00:54:06] **Emil Vinterhav:** it. 

[00:54:07] **Markus:** Hmm, this is interesting. Very 

[00:54:09] **Markus:** interesting. [00:54:10] 

[00:54:11] **Mikael:** I don't, 

[00:54:12] **Mikael:** I think that they have, ACT, iSpace has been absolutely marvelous. They have putting a lot of extra energy into this [00:54:20] project in the sense that I don't think that they would've done 

[00:54:22] **Mikael Genberg:** done 

[00:54:24] **Mikael Genberg:** I. 

[00:54:24] **Mikael:** with, maybe 

[00:54:25] **Mikael:** with other project, but not with every other project. I think they've been really, they've were [00:54:30] really supportive and it's, uh, it's been so many weird meetings.

[00:54:35] **Mikael:** Weird for me. I remember one when we talked about, uh, [00:54:40] having one of the washers becoming 0.1 millimeters thinner. And my, my, I was just thinking just. Turned a little bit harder than, [00:54:50] and then it doesn't 0.1 millimeters or not, you know, it was so many, so many interesting. Um, and they, they have been really, I think they have been really [00:55:00] supportive.

[00:55:00] **Mikael:** Um, in, in every aspect. In every aspect. 

[00:55:04] **Mikael:** And we went to, Michael. Michael, what is it like for you as an artist to [00:55:10] work with

[00:55:10] **Markus:** work with

[00:55:10] **Markus:** space engineers and space scientists? I mean, like, as you just mentioned, they're talking about nanometers and, and and stuff, and [00:55:20] you as an artist, you're, maybe there's more room for maneuver now and then, so how does that work together?

[00:55:28] **Markus:** How does it feel [00:55:30] like to work with those guys?

[00:55:33] **Mikael:** This is, 

[00:55:33] **Mikael:** this is actually my, this is my dream scenario. Uh, normally when I [00:55:40] worked as more like a traditional, in the more traditional art scene, I felt that it was secluded and lonely and it wasn't, you know, the, the, the, so when [00:55:50] I started doing, I built the treehouse and stuff like that, and I, I needed to have people around me because I didn't have any knowledge about building or climbing or anything like that.

[00:55:59] **Mikael:** Uh, and [00:56:00] this project is the dream project. Also, just, just having the need to get people in. With a lot of different kind of [00:56:10] competencies. Not only space engineering, but you know, marketing people or just people who are thinking in new ways. And we, so we have a, this broad [00:56:20] community, it's been, it's been such a treat, uh, to, to work with people like a ML but also, you know, we had some, some sports people [00:56:30] involved and, you know, it's, it's just, uh, it's just quite a weird bunch of, of, of individuals.

[00:56:35] **Mikael:** Um, 

[00:56:36] **Mikael:** but, but, but really competent and really interesting people [00:56:40] with all of them. Um, and, and, and, and, and, and being, being, having the opportunity of working with iSpace. And even if I don't understand what they're saying on the [00:56:50] meetings, it's really, it's really a treat to be just, you know, listening to, to the.

[00:56:56] **Mikael:** Complication to the, how complex it is [00:57:00] to do anything in space. And my first will, they say, yeah, let's make a small asset and send it. And it turned out to be really so much more difficult than I [00:57:10] understood. And that's, that's, that's the value. I think the value is that it's taken so long time and it's been so difficult and now it's now it's going to, the most difficult [00:57:20] part is probably coming up now on the 6th of June when we're landing.

[00:57:24] **Markus:** So you've been building this house for 25 years now.

[00:57:27] **Markus:** I. 

[00:57:28] **Mikael:** That's 

[00:57:28] **Mikael:** correct. 

[00:57:29] **Mikael Genberg:** correct. [00:57:30] 

[00:57:32] **Markus:** So we're getting 

[00:57:32] **Markus:** closer. We're getting closer to launch. Um, so what is, what was the role of NASA in all of this? [00:57:40] Because you had SpaceX as the launcher, you had iSpace as the ones doing that lunar landing mission, and where was NASA in [00:57:50] all of this?

[00:57:53] **Emil:** What? What is NASA doing in all This 

[00:57:56] **Emil Vinterhav:** NASA 

[00:57:57] **Emil:** a. An encouragement 

[00:57:59] **Emil:** back when we [00:58:00] did the original study 

[00:58:01] **Emil:** after that, uh, nasa, I, I don't know what is NASA has on us. They were really, it was a really important [00:58:10] encouragement they gave us, but from there on, right now it's a, it's a strictly, 

[00:58:15] **Emil:** we 

[00:58:15] **Emil:** have the moon house, uh, in, or, or beer that is [00:58:20] totally responsible for manufacturing and financing the house with through its shareholders.

[00:58:26] **Emil:** And then we have iSpace responsible for taking us, uh, [00:58:30] to, to put the land around the rover, replacing us there for the operations and SpaceX two to bring us into space. So those are the only ones involved at the moment. Naau was, yeah, they were very [00:58:40] inspirational and they were really supporting and they, they, they put us on the right direction and really encouraged us to do.

[00:58:47] **Markus:** Great. Is there anything we should, [00:58:50] um, still talk about before we come to launch day at Kennedy 

[00:58:55] **Markus:** Space Center? I.

[00:58:57] **Emil:** I want 

[00:58:57] **Emil:** to, 

[00:58:58] **Emil:** to, uh, cycle back to what [00:59:00] Mika said about, or you, the question about working with engineers from an artist's perspective, 

[00:59:05] **Emil:** uh, 

[00:59:05] **Emil:** to me, this project that, or any space project that [00:59:10] you want to make happen, and this I've been with from quite an early phase, but a large part of it's is to convince somebody else that it needs to be done.

[00:59:19] **Emil:** And I think [00:59:20] there, Mika started in exactly the right way because they started with networking, getting people interested and seeing where there's a way forward. And you, half, [00:59:30] half of the space engineering is talking.

[00:59:33] **Markus:** Mm 

[00:59:33] **Emil:** So talk, a lot of getting stuff into space is talking and then you need to, to make it happen with engineering.

[00:59:39] **Markus:** mm [00:59:40] 

[00:59:40] **Emil:** But it's, 

[00:59:41] **Emil:** so I, I think you, you have that part, you did excellently and I.

[00:59:46] **Markus:** mm. [00:59:50] Yeah. 

[00:59:53] **Mikael:** Well 

[00:59:53] **Mikael:** there, I mean, there's a lot of things to be said about the, the, the journey before before launch 

[00:59:59] **Mikael Genberg:** launch [01:00:00] date. but I think the, the 

[01:00:03] **Mikael Genberg:** launch, uh. 

[01:00:03] **Mikael:** Itself, if we 

[01:00:05] **Mikael:** can reach that. It was an extraordinary experience. We were eight [01:00:10] people from Sweden. I think we actually were even more, you know, that iSpace is a Japanese company, but they have a subsidiary in Europe and 

[01:00:18] **Mikael:** Luxembourg and one in the, [01:00:20] in, in the United States. So there was quite a lot of people from United States, but I think we were more Swedes than Japanese even.

[01:00:26] **Mikael:** Uh, on, on that, uh, on that, 

[01:00:29] **Mikael Genberg:** on that [01:00:30] 

[01:00:30] **Mikael:** which was the second launch of iSpace, 

[01:00:33] **Mikael:** um, the first one crashed on the moon, as you probably know, 

[01:00:36] **Mikael:** in, in April 23. 

[01:00:38] **Mikael:** Um. Um. 

[01:00:39] **Mikael:** [01:00:40] so, 

[01:00:40] **Mikael:** that 

[01:00:41] **Mikael:** that, 

[01:00:41] **Mikael:** launch date was, uh, it was, and I was, they were only allowed to take one of us to the so-called [01:00:50] VIP launch thing. So the other seven people had to, they were standing on the bridge watching the, I 

[01:00:56] **Mikael:** actually wanted to be more with them then, but somebody [01:01:00] had to go to the, the, and they said, and I said, we can, we can do a vote.

[01:01:03] **Mikael:** They said, no, Michael, you should go. And it was extraordinary, um, on the bus drive up to the [01:01:10] launchpad, um, I, I was totally, you know, it was exciting. And, uh, the moon came up, uh, that's huge. Just from the, 

[01:01:19] **Mikael Genberg:** from the, [01:01:20] 

[01:01:20] **Mikael:** you know, the, the Japanese guys like, 

[01:01:21] **Mikael Genberg:** guy's like 

[01:01:21] **Mikael Genberg:** all how old and, 

[01:01:23] **Mikael:** and, uh, there was this guy, he fell asleep. He fell asleep in the bus.

[01:01:26] **Mikael:** And I was like, oh, are you nuts? I asked him before, [01:01:30] did you, did you ever see a alone? He said, no. And he was falling asleep. And I said, how can you be so relaxed? And then we had the. 

[01:01:37] **Mikael Genberg:** the. 

[01:01:38] **Mikael:** The launch was one [01:01:40] 11, um, American Time, 

[01:01:42] **Mikael:** and. 

[01:01:44] **Mikael:** I had to do three radio shows and had two, the two big [01:01:50] Swedish television companies at the same time, you know, monitoring me through two, two cameras.

[01:01:57] **Mikael:** Uh, so I had two cameras and it [01:02:00] was, I don't, did you, I, I'm sure you've seen a launch, 

[01:02:04] **Mikael Genberg:** launch,

[01:02:04] **Mikael:** Marco.

[01:02:05] **Markus:** Yes, I was, I was lucky to have seen a launch at the exact same spot, I [01:02:10] think, uh, in October last year.

[01:02:13] **Mikael:** it 

[01:02:13] **Mikael:** was amazing though. And you can then, you can imagine how it feels to have a house that you have been sitting in [01:02:20] your own house painting that knowing that it's actually on that huge monster of 

[01:02:26] **Mikael:** a rocket. You know? That was, emotional. 

[01:02:28] **Mikael:** it 

[01:02:28] **Mikael:** was very [01:02:30] emotional. It was very, you can see that when I'm just, I'm, uh, 

[01:02:33] **Mikael Genberg:** uh, 

[01:02:34] **Mikael:** I've, 

[01:02:34] **Mikael:** I 

[01:02:35] **Mikael:** sound like an absolute nutcase, uh, on television there because I just don't know what he [01:02:40] said.

[01:02:40] **Mikael Genberg:** what to say. I just go, 

[01:02:42] **Mikael:** but it was 

[01:02:42] **Mikael:** it was, really emotional and it went quite, 

[01:02:45] **Mikael Genberg:** quite, 

[01:02:46] **Mikael:** and 

[01:02:46] **Mikael:** then all of a sudden it was a space and the house has been in space since then. [01:02:50] And, and, uh, but the launch was, um, 

[01:02:52] **Mikael Genberg:** was, um, 

[01:02:54] **Mikael:** amazing, 

[01:02:54] **Mikael:** wasn't 

[01:02:55] **Mikael:** it? They mean, and the day after we saw the, the first launch of, of, um, blue Origin [01:03:00] actually.

[01:03:00] **Mikael Genberg:** actually. 

[01:03:00] **Emil:** Oh, new Glen. Yes, exactly.

[01:03:02] **Mikael:** Yep.

[01:03:04] **Emil:** Now it was very emotional. It was very beautiful. It was a perfect night for, for a launch under a full moon.

[01:03:09] **Emil Vinterhav:** too. [01:03:10] I, 

[01:03:10] **Markus:** Wow. Fantastic. Fantastic. And ever since, ever since it's traveling, the house is traveling. 

[01:03:19] **Markus:** I. [01:03:20] 

[01:03:22] **Mikael:** Yes, 

[01:03:23] **Mikael:** it's traveling. Uh, we wanted to try to follow it, but we couldn't get, uh, I don't think that they have. Maybe [01:03:30] 

[01:03:30] **Mikael:** it would've been nice couldn't get an air, an air tag on it.

[01:03:34] **Mikael:** no, 

[01:03:34] **Mikael:** I 

[01:03:34] **Mikael:** don't think so. At least we asked that we couldn't get anything like that. And, but, but, uh, 

[01:03:38] **Mikael Genberg:** But, but 

[01:03:38] **Mikael Genberg:** uh,[01:03:40] 

[01:03:40] **Mikael:** but 

[01:03:40] **Mikael:** just looking out in, 

[01:03:41] **Mikael:** in, 

[01:03:42] **Mikael:** yeah, we 

[01:03:43] **Emil:** but just there's no one with an iPhone around.

[01:03:46] **Mikael:** nah, 

[01:03:47] **Mikael Genberg:** no, 

[01:03:48] **Mikael:** but 

[01:03:48] **Mikael:** just 

[01:03:49] **Mikael:** looking [01:03:50] up and seeing, you know, just seeing space and, and knowing that you have an item 

[01:03:56] **Mikael:** that you actually put out there.

[01:03:58] **Mikael:** It's, 

[01:03:59] **Mikael:** [01:04:00] it's. 

[01:04:00] **Mikael Genberg:** it's,

[01:04:01] **Mikael:** It's quite strong, it's quite a strong 

[01:04:03] **Mikael:** emotion to it. It changes the whole perspective of, of space. Um, for me [01:04:10] at least. 

[01:04:10] **Mikael Genberg:** least. 

[01:04:12] **Mikael:** So everyone should have their own house to the moon

[01:04:14] **Markus:** What, 

[01:04:15] **Mikael Genberg:** someday. 

[01:04:16] **Markus:** what was the landing site [01:04:20] selection slash the lot for your house? The selection for that place? Like, did you get, like, of course, no one owns [01:04:30] lots on the moon, so you were free to like, back in the day in the United States when the settlers just rammed in their, their property, [01:04:40] um, um, tags. Um, how did that work?

[01:04:44] **Markus:** So were you assigned a place 

[01:04:48] **Markus:** with a nice view? Mm-hmm. 

[01:04:49] **Emil:** a.[01:04:50] 

[01:04:50] **Emil:** that's a. 

[01:04:51] **Emil:** pretty, there, we can cycle back there as well. But the did, when we did the original story when we were building a land and we were free to choose landing sites, and we had, [01:05:00] this was the time when we had the big, uh, network of people that we met regularly with. 

[01:05:05] **Emil:** And 

[01:05:06] **Emil:** there, so we had three options.

[01:05:07] **Emil:** There was the Kepler Crater, which is a very, [01:05:10] it's a recent crater, so it's got lot of new sort of undisturbed insides of moon accessible. We had, [01:05:20] uh, thinness finest rhythm. I think it's called Sea of Rains or rainbows. It's supposed to be the most, uh, some, it the most beautiful [01:05:30] place on, on the moon. It's like ma with a nice, nice cliff around.

[01:05:34] **Emil:** You see the. 

[01:05:35] **Emil Vinterhav:** earth above the. cliff perhaps. 

[01:05:37] **Emil:** Uh, 

[01:05:38] **Emil:** and then we had the coordinates of [01:05:40] ero, where Mia comes from 

[01:05:41] **Emil:** and 

[01:05:43] **Emil:** we presented these sort of from, in that order. There was a big chair when we said the coordinates of Oz, of course. [01:05:50] 

[01:05:51] **Emil:** And the funny thing is now we, when we are, we, I mean we are, we are in the same landing site as iSpace has chosen because [01:06:00] they, they have their criteria, uh, 

[01:06:02] **Emil:** they, I think their, their main driver is for success in landing too, to make sure you have a safe and [01:06:10] secure landing.

[01:06:10] **Emil:** And it's quite close to vest. The coordinates vest also on 

[01:06:14] **Emil:** the 

[01:06:14] **Markus:** Tell me, tell me how, how does, how, how does that work with the coordinates of West? So are you [01:06:20] translating the, the coordinates into Moon GPS equivalent is, is that 

[01:06:25] **Markus:** right? 

[01:06:25] **Emil:** yes. It's, it's not exactly near, but it's quite near sort of, uh, [01:06:30] quite near the, the 60th 

[01:06:33] **Emil:** latitude, 

[01:06:34] **Emil:** Right. 

[01:06:35] **Markus:** but this is 

[01:06:35] **Markus:** pure coincidence, right?

[01:06:37] **Emil:** Pure 

[01:06:38] **Emil Vinterhav:** coincidence. 

[01:06:38] **Mikael Genberg:** Yeah. 

[01:06:39] **Markus:** Wow. [01:06:40] Wow. 

[01:06:40] **Mikael:** Also. Also the fact that it's going land on the Swedish National Day is also a coincidence.

[01:06:46] **Markus:** The stars 

[01:06:47] **Markus:** aligned. The star is literally aligned. [01:06:50] with a moon. um, and, and now where is the house housed right now? Is it in the lander or is it in a rover? [01:07:00] And how far from the lander will the actual, um, place be? Where it will be placed for good for the next [01:07:10] 10,000 years?

[01:07:12] **Emil Vinterhav:** So 

[01:07:12] **Emil:** it sits stowed and, and there, and the rover is, uh, pretty much, it can operate either way, 

[01:07:19] **Emil:** but it's, uh, [01:07:20] the front end, which is not very much distinguishable from the rear end, but we're sitting on the front end and stove, uh, ready to deploy on, on a bracket [01:07:30] 

[01:07:30] **Emil:** between the, 

[01:07:31] **Emil:** the, 

[01:07:31] **Emil:** wheels.

[01:07:32] **Markus:** Mm-hmm. 

[01:07:32] **Emil:** Um, just below the front, the front end camera.

[01:07:36] **Emil:** And that isn't turnow inside the lander. It's not [01:07:40] outside, but inside it will sort of hold out and, and be placed on the surface.

[01:07:44] **Markus:** So, and and Ipec, uh, iSpace said we're gonna make a couple of trips and [01:07:50] you decide on which trip we are deploying the house.

[01:07:55] **Emil:** Now that 

[01:07:56] **Emil:** would've been lovely. We wanted to go as soon as possible. [01:08:00] Uh, they had a rover already on their first mission, but, uh, since 

[01:08:04] **Markus:** No, I meant, I meant trips, a trip with the rover. Um, so, because 

[01:08:08] **Markus:** the rover is gonna be [01:08:10] traveling on the moon, like, uh, to various places, so they may have 

[01:08:14] **Markus:** offered you, um, one of those 

[01:08:17] **Markus:** trips. 

[01:08:18] **Emil:** Okay. No, 

[01:08:19] **Emil:** so there's, [01:08:20] there's, there's going to be one trip. Uh, they will not come back to the lander, I think maybe they don't really know. But we have the day is for, for [01:08:30] making sure everything works and scouting the, the close virginity of, of the lander. And then on the second day, it's the moon house day where we'll [01:08:40] go 

[01:08:40] **Emil Vinterhav:** S 

[01:08:41] **Emil:** find 

[01:08:41] **Emil:** a place where we can see the, where we believe, be nice to place the house, go around, uh, so that we don't create a lot of tracks in front of the house.[01:08:50] 

[01:08:50] **Markus:** Mm. 

[01:08:51] **Emil:** Go 

[01:08:51] **Emil:** up to where we believe it's, it's a good spot. Lies flat area without any rocks or things that can disturb. The napping will release [01:09:00] the house and will fall down to the moon. Yes, there is gravity on the moon for everybody doubted it, but uh, it'll release and will fall these eight centimeters touched [01:09:10] down.

[01:09:10] **Emil:** And, and it will do a so quite nicely. And then we'll back around. Travel in a wide circle back and take the picture from the, from the front.[01:09:20] 

[01:09:20] **Markus:** Wow. 

[01:09:20] **Emil:** done that, we also made sure that we have the right pose of the house so we get good lighting from the sun.

[01:09:26] **Markus:** So, So, I'm, I'm picturing all this, this [01:09:30] deployment phase. It's like, um, having a coffee mug on the edge of a table, and then this coffee mug gets pushed over the edge [01:09:40] and is designed to land exactly as it's stood on the table. Is, is, is this the challenge?

[01:09:48] **Emil:** Mm. 

[01:09:49] **Emil Vinterhav:** it's 

[01:09:49] **Emil:** [01:09:50] bit different.

[01:09:51] **Emil Vinterhav:** It's, 

[01:09:51] **Emil:** its, it's got a bracket. It's sort of on, on front end of the house, uh, of the rover like this. There is a bracket sitting like, like so, 

[01:09:58] **Emil:** or like so, [01:10:00] and we have the house sitting beneath it and it's connected with this bracket by a 

[01:10:04] **Emil:** bolt. And 

[01:10:05] **Emil:** we cut the bolt and the whole house hold down like this. 

[01:10:09] **Emil:** [01:10:10] So.

[01:10:10] **Markus:** Okay, so how can you make sure, so what is now the, the challenge is it lands on in the proper way, not on the [01:10:20] roof. So how did you solve that challenge?

[01:10:24] **Emil:** So 

[01:10:25] **Emil:** there's, 

[01:10:25] **Emil:** I mean, uh, one of these release mechanisms, it's, we are pulling apart a [01:10:30] titanium bolt. So there's quite a lot of energy going into this. And the fear has been that this would, would propel the house to, to bounce off the, the surface. [01:10:40] What it does to prevent this, we have, uh, guiding pin that sits in through a hole in, in the house on, on the rover.

[01:10:49] **Emil:** [01:10:50] And when we release it, this, we, we induce a vibration of the house on this onto this pin. So, and that captures all this energy and [01:11:00] 

[01:11:00] **Emil:** it will slowly sort of vibrate down the, the pin and then drop slowly, nicely to the,

[01:11:05] **Emil:** so it's, it's quite a controlled, uh. 

[01:11:09] **Emil:** [01:11:10] Effect or 

[01:11:10] **Emil:** quite a controlled procedure,

[01:11:14] **Emil Vinterhav:** or, 

[01:11:14] **Markus:** Mm-hmm. 

[01:11:15] **Emil:** see series of events.

[01:11:17] **Markus:** Fantastic

[01:11:18] **Emil:** that's how it, and, and then the [01:11:20] other thing we are of course, we're, when we scout the area, we want to make sure that it's a nice flat surface and where we can safely think that there are no varied [01:11:30] pieces of, of, uh, of a rock or hard pieces of re that would make it uneven.

[01:11:37] **Markus:** You should, um, um, [01:11:40] is this, by the way, then the end of the art project? So the photo is, or when, when does it end? Or is [01:11:50] it an art PR project for forever?

[01:11:54] **Mikael:** That's 

[01:11:55] **Mikael:** a good 

[01:11:55] **Mikael:** question. Um,

[01:11:56] **Mikael Genberg:** Um,

[01:11:57] **Mikael:** what do

[01:11:58] **Mikael:** you 

[01:11:58] **Mikael:** think? 

[01:11:58] **Mikael Genberg:** you 

[01:11:58] **Mikael Genberg:** think?

[01:11:59] **Mikael:** You know, 

[01:11:59] **Mikael:** [01:12:00] it's, uh, it could be the start could be the end. It de it so much 

[01:12:04] **Mikael:** depends on,

[01:12:05] **Mikael Genberg:** on, on responses and, you know, does it live in [01:12:10] people's minds or doesn't it, uh, does it die or does it live? Um, it's not, it's absolutely out of our control. Uh, we don't, I don't think we [01:12:20] are planning to do anything additional.

[01:12:23] **Mikael:** Uh, I have a few ideas that 

[01:12:27] **Mikael:** maybe could, could, you know, [01:12:30] 

[01:12:30] **Mikael Genberg:** you know 

[01:12:31] **Mikael:** what it says, kind of artistically discuss with the 

[01:12:34] **Mikael:** house on the moon. But let's say, let's see what happens. First we land and then we see, [01:12:40] we see the response, and then we will, 

[01:12:42] **Mikael Genberg:** we will, 

[01:12:43] **Mikael:** we'll 

[01:12:43] **Mikael:** see. 

[01:12:43] **Mikael:** But it's like, you know, in a, it's like a painting. The painting is made. 

[01:12:48] **Mikael Genberg:** is made. 

[01:12:49] **Mikael:** So 

[01:12:49] **Mikael:** [01:12:50] the, the, 

[01:12:50] **Mikael:** art piece is kind of, that's 

[01:12:54] **Mikael:** finished 

[01:12:55] **Mikael:** in, 

[01:12:55] **Mikael:** in a. 

[01:12:55] **Mikael:** sense, but. sense, but. 

[01:12:57] **Markus:** what are your best guesses? Also maybe [01:13:00] from you ml? Um, when the degradation process, um, starts, I mean like this will start from the very beginning. How long will the [01:13:10] house stay in the shape and design and coloring until it starts to, to degrade under space radiation and moon [01:13:20] regolith and whatnot.

[01:13:22] **Emil:** It's a very good question. Um, the ma there are two main things that can affect the house. [01:13:30] One is, uh, meteorites. 

[01:13:33] **Markus:** Mm. 

[01:13:33] **Emil:** Um, there's a constant bombardment of meteorites, but the, they did estimates on this [01:13:40] for Apollo and I think they looked at a two square feet piece

[01:13:45] **Markus:** Mm. 

[01:13:47] **Markus:** Mm-hmm. 

[01:13:47] **Emil:** the probability of. [01:13:50] 

[01:13:50] **Emil:** of, 

[01:13:51] **Emil:** anything hitting that area in a day.

[01:13:54] **Emil:** And it's one in millions. So the house is what, uh, 

[01:13:59] **Emil:** [01:14:00] 50th of a 

[01:14:00] **Emil:** square 

[01:14:00] **Emil:** of uh, two square feet. So that means it's 50 times more, say a hundred million, 

[01:14:06] **Emil:** a hundred million days before it happens. It's, uh, [01:14:10] 

[01:14:11] **Emil:** it 

[01:14:11] **Emil:** it, was down there for a very long time if it's only down to meteor rights or with a great probability.

[01:14:16] **Emil:** The other thing is the solar radiation. The house [01:14:20] is red and everyone who's owned a red car knows that it's very sensitive to be left out in the sun.

[01:14:25] **Markus:** Mm-hmm. 

[01:14:26] **Emil:** We, 

[01:14:28] **Emil:** it's been test hard. [01:14:30] The, the paint is made for, for, uh, for severe or, uh, rough conditions. It's rugged conditions, but you never [01:14:40] know.

[01:14:41] **Markus:** Mm-hmm. 

[01:14:41] **Emil:** to test for the long time duration, you know.

[01:14:44] **Emil Vinterhav:** in, 

[01:14:45] **Markus:** Mm-hmm.

[01:14:46] **Emil:** And it's 

[01:14:46] **Emil:** also very much harder radiation 'cause there's no [01:14:50] protective atmosphere that filters out the ultraviolet.

[01:14:54] **Markus:** You know, what drives, what drives me? What drives me absolutely crazy is the sheer thought that [01:15:00] we, we have that, and I think I already mentioned that a, a couple of episodes ago, that we have the Voyager spacecraft traveling into the void, [01:15:10] and as space is vast and mostly empty, it will live way beyond [01:15:20] earth through planet earth.

[01:15:21] **Markus:** So just imagine having something like humans built like that house [01:15:30] on the moon transcending the lifetime of humanity. This is, this is a thought that we need to wrap [01:15:40] our heads around and I think it's not possible to wrap our head around because this is mind blowing. 

[01:15:45] **Markus:** I. 

[01:15:48] **Mikael:** I agree with you. 

[01:15:48] **Mikael Genberg:** agree with you, 

[01:15:49] **Emil:** After [01:15:50] the next ice H, there will, this will be the only red house in existence.

[01:15:54] **Markus:** Yes. 

[01:15:55] **Mikael Genberg:** yes. 

[01:15:57] **Markus:** Now this is mind blowing.[01:16:00] 

[01:16:00] **Emil:** It's mind feel to you? How does that feel to you, Michael, as an artist? This is the ultimate piece of art because it stays there mostly forever.[01:16:10] 

[01:16:11] **Mikael:** Well 

[01:16:12] **Mikael:** put. I, I agree with you. Um, 

[01:16:16] **Mikael:** so 

[01:16:16] **Mikael:** let's, uh, you know, I, I try [01:16:20] not to think about it too much because it's, um, 

[01:16:22] **Mikael Genberg:** um, 

[01:16:24] **Mikael:** it 

[01:16:24] **Mikael:** is 

[01:16:24] **Mikael:** mind blowing, but it's also a bit disturbing

[01:16:28] **Markus:** It is. It 

[01:16:28] **Markus:** is. 

[01:16:28] **Mikael:** also. It also, you [01:16:30] know, it thinking about space is also quite disturbing. After, while, 

[01:16:34] **Mikael:** uh, you know, it's so. 

[01:16:39] **Mikael:** it's 

[01:16:39] **Mikael:** [01:16:40] quite, it's quite terrifying, isn't it? 

[01:16:42] **Markus:** It 

[01:16:42] **Markus:** is. It 

[01:16:43] **Markus:** is. 

[01:16:43] **Mikael:** Space? 

[01:16:44] **Mikael:** It is. I mean, it's, it's so, we're so in insignificant, um, [01:16:50] and we are 

[01:16:53] **Mikael:** not 

[01:16:53] **Mikael:** thinking about our insignificance at all. We think we're so important, but, 

[01:16:58] **Mikael:** but, the center of the [01:17:00] universe. we we 

[01:17:01] **Mikael:** we do.

[01:17:01] **Mikael Genberg:** we yeah, exactly. and maybe, maybe this is true in a vast space like space, like there is no center, [01:17:10] but Amil, you know this a lot better than myself, but in like from a, um, geo geometry tells us there is no [01:17:20] center in the universe if, if I'm, if I'm, uh, correct.

[01:17:24] **Markus:** So it's true and absolutely okay to say we are the centers of the [01:17:30] universe. 

[01:17:33] **Markus:** Our own universe is maybe the house is the center of the universe. Exactly. 

[01:17:39] **Markus:** [01:17:40] Yeah. Great. 

[01:17:40] **Mikael:** inside our minds, we all carry a whole 

[01:17:43] **Mikael:** universe, don't Yes. Yeah. 

[01:17:46] **Markus:** Um, I'm 

[01:17:47] **Markus:** I'm thinking, I'm, I'm thinking you should, you should have a [01:17:50] copy of that house, uh, exact replica as a traveling exhibition on Earth. That would, that would produce quite a bit of [01:18:00] engagement with the art project. Maybe you have it already.

[01:18:04] **Mikael:** we 

[01:18:04] **Mikael:** have an exact, exact, exact copy because we had to make a, uh, [01:18:10] a double. So, so, uh, if something would happen with this one, the, the second one would have to be done exactly 

[01:18:17] **Mikael:** in the same manner. So, so, so that, so 

[01:18:19] **Mikael:** [01:18:20] that,

[01:18:20] **Mikael:** we do have, now we did try it, we do the droppings and so on, but before we didn't touch it.

[01:18:26] **Mikael:** Um, so we, yes, we do have a, a, 

[01:18:29] **Markus:** I, I could [01:18:30] totally, totally see that in museums or as a traveling exhibition. Um, I. Yeah. Anyways, um, there is one question that needs to be [01:18:40] asked, um, and that question is, should you have done this in the first place because you're putting human litter on the moon? [01:18:50] Should we do that?

[01:18:52] **Mikael:** Yeah, 

[01:18:52] **Mikael:** I 

[01:18:52] **Mikael:** think so. 

[01:18:53] **Mikael:** That, that's, uh, that's what I think. I don't think it's litter. And I think that you, we should absolutely, [01:19:00] uh, do things in space. Um, 

[01:19:04] **Mikael:** and 

[01:19:04] **Mikael:** I 

[01:19:04] **Mikael:** think we should do things that has, uh, 

[01:19:08] **Mikael Genberg:** uh, 

[01:19:09] **Mikael:** [01:19:10] poetic 

[01:19:10] **Mikael:** human 

[01:19:11] **Mikael Genberg:** human 

[01:19:11] **Mikael:** touch to 

[01:19:12] **Mikael:** it so that we can actually make people, um. 

[01:19:17] **Mikael:** See and be [01:19:20] aware of what we actually, where we actually are.

[01:19:23] **Mikael:** And that is, that is basically what art is all about as well. All culture is all about telling, retelling [01:19:30] the story about what is it to be human, what is reality all about? Where are we? That's, that's what culture is all about. If you write a book or if you make a movie or, [01:19:40] or you make art artists without, um, speech or text.

[01:19:44] **Mikael:** So it's, it's, um, 

[01:19:45] **Mikael Genberg:** um, 

[01:19:47] **Mikael:** and 

[01:19:47] **Mikael:** if, if, if space [01:19:50] exploration, uh, 

[01:19:53] **Mikael:** would be with, with it rigid, of course, but if, if we would take away the whole cultural thing, uh, [01:20:00] from space endeavors, I think we would, 

[01:20:03] **Mikael Genberg:** we would, 

[01:20:04] **Mikael:** we 

[01:20:04] **Mikael:** would 

[01:20:05] **Mikael:** lose something. So I, I, I hope that this could be a starting point also for, [01:20:10] for other similar ideas in order to, to, to make, uh. 

[01:20:15] **Mikael:** To 

[01:20:16] **Mikael:** make it more, 

[01:20:19] **Mikael:** [01:20:20] let's 

[01:20:20] **Mikael:** say, 

[01:20:20] **Mikael:** poetic, but, um, 

[01:20:24] **Mikael:** tangible maybe 

[01:20:26] **Mikael:** for, for, 

[01:20:27] **Mikael:** the human mind. [01:20:30] Um, and I, I do know that people said, oh, you're going to, you're gonna change the, the whole idea about the moon. And if I do [01:20:40] so, then I'm sorry. Uh, I still think it's a big, beautiful thing, but sometimes people say, oh, I'm, I'm not going to be able to watch the moon anymore because I, I'll only see your red [01:20:50] house.

[01:20:50] **Mikael:** Well, then one could say that it as, as art, it actually really works.

[01:20:54] **Mikael Genberg:** works. 

[01:20:55] **Markus:** Beautiful. Fantastic. There is a [01:21:00] question I keep asking, um, my guests. Um, and that is, would you personally, um, be ready to go into space, maybe [01:21:10] visit the moon, visit the landing site, visit your house? Would you do that?

[01:21:17] **Mikael:** Would 

[01:21:17] **Mikael:** you hear me? 

[01:21:18] **Mikael Genberg:** you hear me? 

[01:21:19] **Emil:** Yes, 

[01:21:19] **Emil:** I [01:21:20] would. If it was safe enough, 

[01:21:22] **Emil:** yeah, 

[01:21:23] **Emil:** I would. I would go, enough? That's,

[01:21:24] **Mikael:** That's not that, but that's not real. That is not, you 

[01:21:27] **Mikael:** couldn't, can't say if it would be safe enough. That's cheating.[01:21:30] 

[01:21:30] **Mikael Genberg:** cheating. 

[01:21:31] **Emil:** Okay. No, I would go, about that. 

[01:21:33] **Mikael:** Yeah. 

[01:21:33] **Mikael:** I 

[01:21:33] **Mikael:** would 

[01:21:33] **Mikael:** go to, I would go to, uh, I wouldn't, I don't think, I think that if, if you would go to [01:21:40] the moon, I think the only thing you would feel is a longing for home, basically.

[01:21:45] **Mikael:** But, but it would be an incredible experience [01:21:50] and I wouldn't miss it. But you know, 

[01:21:52] **Mikael Genberg:** But, you know, 

[01:21:53] **Mikael:** my. Uh, 

[01:21:55] **Mikael:** sometimes, some days I think, nah, I don't want to go because, you know, you don't really want to go to space. But, [01:22:00] but if, if somebody. 

[01:22:02] **Mikael:** Would 

[01:22:02] **Mikael:** ask 

[01:22:03] **Mikael Genberg:** ask 

[01:22:03] **Markus:** the 

[01:22:04] **Markus:** if 

[01:22:04] **Mikael:** would be safe. If 

[01:22:05] **Mikael:** it 

[01:22:06] **Mikael:** would be safe enough, Emil?

[01:22:07] **Mikael Genberg:** Emil? 

[01:22:08] **Emil Vinterhav:** if no, 

[01:22:09] **Emil:** but I would also [01:22:10] like to, I, I think Aldrin, uh, coined the expression, the mag magnificent desolation. I think that would be something to experience. The house or not. [01:22:20] I would certainly visit the house if I could, but just to see that being the most alone person in the universe, that would be an experience in itself, I think.[01:22:30] 

[01:22:31] **Markus:** The reason I'm asking, um, is we have a playlist on Spotify, um, called the Playlist [01:22:40] for the aspiring space traveler. And so I'm asking you now, um, because traveling in space is usually a very lonely [01:22:50] or, um, boring endeavor because distances are quite vast. So what's the one piece of music from each of you personally, [01:23:00] I should put on that playlist, that one piece of music you would never want to miss on such an endeavor. And [01:23:10] each of our guests puts one piece of music on their playlist, so it's quite populated. So Major 

[01:23:18] **Markus:** Thomas already what the [01:23:20] other 

[01:23:21] **Mikael:** Yeah, 

[01:23:21] **Mikael Genberg:** Yeah, but 

[01:23:24] **Mikael:** I'm sure 

[01:23:24] **Mikael Genberg:** I'm sure as well. [01:23:30] 

[01:23:30] **Emil:** Um. 

[01:23:30] **Markus:** classical we have Iron Maiden on it. We have Major Tom David Bowie. Of course we have Taylor Swift, Madonna, whatever.[01:23:40] 

[01:23:40] **Mikael:** I'd, I'd, I, I'd probably bring a Sex pistol song then, 

[01:23:43] **Mikael Genberg:** song then, 

[01:23:45] **Markus:** Okay. 

[01:23:46] **Markus:** Anarchy in 

[01:23:47] **Mikael Genberg:** anarchy in the uk, 

[01:23:49] **Mikael:** [01:23:50] Anna King Space. I don't know. Just, just to break up the, all the 

[01:23:56] **Mikael:** all the other tunes. tunes.

[01:23:57] **Markus:** anarchy

[01:23:58] **Emil:** And I'll choose a [01:24:00] 

[01:24:02] **Emil:** and 

[01:24:02] **Emil:** I'll choose the other end and choose Claire De.

[01:24:06] **Mikael:** Yeah. 

[01:24:08] **Mikael:** Play the 

[01:24:08] **Mikael:** balloon. 

[01:24:08] **Mikael Genberg:** clear the 

[01:24:09] **Mikael Genberg:** balloon.

[01:24:09] **Markus:** [01:24:10] Claire de Loon. Good. That is a very nice fit. Claire de loon and ar archy in the uk. So if you are on the same ship, maybe, [01:24:20] 

[01:24:20] **Markus:** maybe At least we get the whole span, right? That'd be great.

[01:24:23] **Mikael:** Yeah.

[01:24:23] **Mikael Genberg:** Yeah. 

[01:24:25] **Emil:** Imagine 

[01:24:25] **Emil:** if 

[01:24:25] **Emil:** we chose Anarchy in the uk, both of us.

[01:24:28] **Mikael:** Yeah, 

[01:24:29] **Mikael:** that [01:24:30] would be boring. 

[01:24:30] **Mikael Genberg:** be boring. 

[01:24:32] **Markus:** have one last 

[01:24:32] **Markus:** question. Two, the two of you. Um, this place, um, the, the, the, the show is called the Space Cafe [01:24:40] Podcast. It's a coffee place where we sit together and talk about things and in coffee places now, and then you have an espresso, a strong [01:24:50] brew of coffee to energize yourself. Now, I challenge you to share an espresso for the mind with me, with the audience, something, an idea or a thought [01:25:00] or whatever, whatever kind of topic you wanna pick, you think could be a powerful inspiration for our listeners. [01:25:10] Who wants to start?

[01:25:18] **Mikael:** That's 

[01:25:18] **Mikael:** a 

[01:25:18] **Mikael:** tough one, miss. 

[01:25:19] **Mikael Genberg:** one. [01:25:20] 

[01:25:21] **Mikael:** I mean, it's so easy to Be 

[01:25:23] **Mikael Genberg:** Be 

[01:25:28] **Mikael:** Be kind of, you know, [01:25:30] um, smart about it. 

[01:25:32] **Mikael:** I think

[01:25:32] **Mikael Genberg:** I. 

[01:25:32] **Mikael Genberg:** think I. 

[01:25:37] **Emil:** It's 

[01:25:37] **Emil:** a good question.[01:25:40] 

[01:25:45] **Mikael:** I, 

[01:25:45] **Mikael:** I 

[01:25:45] **Mikael:** think I wrote somewhere, 

[01:25:48] **Mikael:** you 

[01:25:49] **Mikael:** know, in, in the [01:25:50] nighttime sometimes you think that I, this is really intelligent or this is, I have to remember this. And then you 

[01:25:56] **Mikael:** have the, and then you have all these, and you feel all [01:26:00] these books with, and you look at it and you said, ah, that was not so intelligent. but 

[01:26:04] **Mikael Genberg:** but 

[01:26:06] **Mikael:** I, uh, I, I wrote once [01:26:10] there is, 

[01:26:11] **Mikael:** and I wrote it in Swedish, so it's, I have to translate it at the same time.

[01:26:14] **Mikael:** But there is really nothing to gain. Accept [01:26:20] experiences and there is really nothing to lose except time. 

[01:26:25] **Mikael Genberg:** time. 

[01:26:26] **Markus:** Hmm. Fantastic,

[01:26:27] **Mikael:** That's the only value we add. It's [01:26:30] time 

[01:26:30] **Mikael Genberg:** It's time 

[01:26:31] **Markus:** and experiences. Beautiful 

[01:26:34] **Markus:** email. Time is ticking. The clock is ticking for for 

[01:26:39] **Markus:** [01:26:40] you. 

[01:26:40] **Mikael:** that 

[01:26:41] **Mikael Genberg:** that

[01:26:42] **Emil:** We 

[01:26:42] **Emil:** only wanna borrow. You wanna borrow my book? You wanna borrow my

[01:26:46] **Emil:** yeah, that would be nice. Uh, that's a really difficult one. [01:26:50] 

[01:26:51] **Emil:** No, you only regret regret what you didn't do. It's, it's, it's much easier. It's much better to regret things that you, you've done, that you did than things you [01:27:00] didn't do.

[01:27:02] **Mikael:** I 

[01:27:03] **Mikael:** understood. I understood that Nobody regrets that it didn't work more. 

[01:27:07] **Mikael Genberg:** more. 

[01:27:09] **Markus:** Yes. [01:27:10] Beautiful. Love it. 

[01:27:15] **Markus:** Beautiful. 

[01:27:15] **Emil:** then, then 

[01:27:17] **Emil:** I couldn't work more. So there's, [01:27:20] uh, hard

[01:27:20] **Emil Vinterhav:** to. 

[01:27:23] **Mikael:** Uh, 

[01:27:24] **Mikael Genberg:** Yeah. 

[01:27:25] **Markus:** Now this is, um, guys, this is mind blowingly interesting. You are a [01:27:30] very inspiring duo. Um, a great partnership. Thanks for taking the time and, and being on the show. Michael and 

[01:27:38] **Markus:** Emil. [01:27:40] 

[01:27:40] **Emil:** for having us.

[01:27:41] **Mikael Genberg:** you, Marcus. 

[01:27:42] **Mikael:** Thanks for 

[01:27:42] **Mikael:** having us. 

[01:27:42] **Mikael Genberg:** for having us. 

[01:27:43] **Mikael:** Lovely to meet 

[01:27:44] **Mikael:** you 

[01:27:44] **Mikael:** as well. You're also very, I think your comments were very inspiring as well. Uh, it's, [01:27:50] uh, it was a, it was a treat to meet you. 

[01:27:51] **Mikael Genberg:** to meet you. 

[01:27:53] **Mikael:** Let's meet again. When you come to Sweden, I.

[01:27:54] **Mikael Genberg:** to Sweden. 

[01:27:55] **Markus:** What a fantastic story, right? So to [01:28:00] quote email, again, if you want something bad enough, no matter how crazy it is, it will happen at some point. And the moon house is a [01:28:10] fantastic proof that any crazy idea can see the light of day at some point. When the stars align. So thanks for joining my [01:28:20] friends. If again, I keep repeating myself, if you feel like this could be something that your friends may enjoy, your wife, your husband, and whatnot, why don't you just [01:28:30] share the link with them and share our Little Space Cafe Podcast universe with them.

[01:28:36] **Markus:** Thanks for your loyalty. We love the growth of [01:28:40] the show. It's episode 131 already. This is crazy. I mean, like we started it five years ago. Out of a well, out of [01:28:50] necessity. We had too much time on our hands during the, the early days of the pandemic, and now without dropping a single episode, we are already [01:29:00] in episode 131.

[01:29:02] **Markus:** Thank you everyone out there. Really, you personally, that you're listening right now, you're making [01:29:10] this happen, you're making me happy. And, uh, let's go for another couple of hundred episodes, will we? So without further ado, [01:29:20] this is it for today. Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening, and I'll catch you in two weeks from now.

[01:29:27] **Markus:** [01:29:30] Bye-bye.