This Architect Is Redesigning Humanity for Life in Space

🚀 The Cosmic Scoop

In this expansive and deeply human conversation, Phnam Bagley challenges everything we think we know about architecture. From floating tables to engineered space hearts, she reimagines what it means to design for a future where gravity is optional and emotion is essential.

Together, we explore the untold questions of life in space:

• What is a “table” without gravity?
• Can architecture heal isolation?
• Do space-born humans need new organs?
• And above all: Are we building habitats—or are we building ourselves anew?

This isn’t just about design. It’s existential. And it’s urgent.

💬 Quotable Insights

💐 “You don’t design for the void. You design for the soul inside it.”
 💐 “Maybe you don’t need a flat table. Maybe you need a soft, spherical one with holes to hold your apple in zero-g.”
 💐 “If the ground disappears beneath you, maybe it’s time to build one inside yourself.”
 💐 “The aesthetics of survival is still survival.”

🕰️ Cosmic Timeline (Timestamps)

• [00:02:12] The O’Neill Ring: cities in the sky and funding the impossible
• [00:06:02] Rethinking furniture and spatial logic in microgravity
• [00:12:00] Microgravity, partial gravity, and the risks of existing too far from Earth
• [00:18:08] The window to nothingness, and why we still need to see home
• [00:29:20] Function. Aesthetics. Value. The true holy trinity of design
• [00:31:05] AI in space design: from mood lighting to biometric ecosystems
• [00:38:46] Bioprinted hearts, sci-fi organs, and the ethics of conception in orbit
• [00:45:43] “The human software” – the greatest unknown of all
• [00:54:09] Would she go to space? Yes—but only with a drill
• [00:56:21] Music for the Space Traveler: Björk – Crystalline (Biophilia)

🎧 Music for the Aspiring Space Traveler's Playlist

🎵 Björk – Crystalline (from Biophilia)
“Because if you’re going to float, do it in fractal wonder.”

🔗 Links to Explore

• NonFictionDesign
• Vladimir Tsiolkovsky’s space architecture sketches
• Museum of Jurassic Technology, Los Angeles
• Vast Space – Haven One
• Space Architecture Foundation
• Björk – Biophilia

✨ Spread the Cosmic Love!

This episode asks questions that will shape our off-world future—and who we become along the way.
 🌌 Share it with someone who dreams, designs, or dares.
 📡 Available now on Spotify and Apple Podcasts

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Transcript

SCP_134_Master_Phnam_Bagley

[00:00:00]

[00:00:00] Phnam: What if we engineered, you know, space hearts, let's call them, you know, that are not designed to function on earth.

[00:00:09] Phnam: You know, [00:00:10] our heart has a, a structure and a geometry that works because you know

[00:00:15] Phnam: Of gravity. But maybe in microgravity, you would need a rounder [00:00:20] heart. 

[00:00:20] Markus: Hello everyone. This is the Space Cafe Podcast, and I'm Markus. So how will we live out there in space once the time [00:00:30] comes? You know, this is one of the most pressing questions I keep asking because I'm so deeply convinced that we're getting closer and closer to making [00:00:40] it up there and setting up shop out there.

[00:00:43] Markus: No, no matter how long it takes till we get our big rockets out there. [00:00:50] Or back again, know it's kind of tricky at the moment still, but you'll see this is just a transition period and at some point we'll [00:01:00] make it. Then we will need to ask the questions. How will we live out there? What will life be like out there when there [00:01:10] is no up and down in zero gravity when there is no left and right and no need for furniture or rooms or traditional things that we're used to having [00:01:20] down here on Earth?

[00:01:21] Markus: What will this space life be like and. I sat down with none other than space architect [00:01:30] Bagley, a very prominent figure in the space community and way beyond the space community. And she would be the one you [00:01:40] would go to if you wanted to like set up shop out there and find out what this, what you should order, what kind of house you should order.

[00:01:49] Markus: Um, [00:01:50] but jokes aside, if you've ever asked. What life out there will be like, or more importantly, who you will become out [00:02:00] there. This episode is exactly for you, so grab your cosmic latte and enjoy this conversation with Nam [00:02:10] Bigly. Let's go.

[00:02:12] Phnam: If money was not an issue,

[00:02:17] Phnam: would

[00:02:17] Phnam: what in space would you want [00:02:20] to build?

[00:02:23] Phnam: If money was not an issue and time, uh, was, you know, condensed, so it would happen in my lifetime. I [00:02:30] think a, a O'Neill ring would be really cool, which is this like very, very large scale, uh, ring in which we can create artificial, uh, gravity [00:02:40] and have entire cities, perhaps countries live within.

[00:02:43] Phnam: Is this what we know from Space Odyssey? Like that wheel?

[00:02:46] Phnam: Yeah, even bigger actually, but yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[00:02:49] Phnam: how [00:02:50] big?

[00:02:50] Phnam: So, uh, yeah, so, so it was a concept put together by Gerard O'Neill, uh, many decades ago, uh, about, you know, how to possibly [00:03:00] export humanity off of this earth. And, um, and the many reasons, you know, you you'd want to do that one is, um. Kinda like the overpopulation [00:03:10] that's, uh, of humans on this planet is, is starting to, uh, make the whole equation of, of resources versus, uh, um, needs for power and, and uh, and, [00:03:20] and food and things like this a little bit difficult.

[00:03:21] Phnam: So, um, so yeah. Uh, having a very, very large scale, um, kinda like structuring space that we allow

[00:03:29] Phnam: It's like a, [00:03:30] a city in space.

[00:03:31] Phnam: pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. So, um. Was that movie we met Damon that came out a few years ago, uh, IUM. Mm, yes. Ium was on

[00:03:39] Phnam: yes. Where you live on [00:03:40] the inside. Exactly, exactly.

[00:03:41] Phnam: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:03:42] Phnam: Would that be feasible? Is this just a, a matter of funding?

[00:03:46] Phnam: So, uh, in theory is, is it should be [00:03:50] possible. Obviously the many types of tests like artificial gravity has never been tested before. Uh, I believe that Vast is going to do a very. Small version of it very soon, in the next couple [00:04:00] years where I believe they're going to rotate a mini space station at 0.04 times.

[00:04:07] Phnam: Um, uh, you know, what, what the [00:04:10] Earth's gravity

[00:04:10] Phnam: They, they announced to launch next year, but now, uh, delaying it, I think. Yeah. They announced a sort of a miniature space station. Yeah.

[00:04:18] Phnam: So that's, uh, Haven One. [00:04:20] Yes, exactly. Uh, so Haven One is gonna launch first. I, I believe they're going to have like four commercial, uh, um, like space flight participants in it, like non-professional astronauts.

[00:04:29] Phnam: [00:04:30] And then they'll have Haven two, and I can't remember which one is going to be the one that features the artificial gravity. Uh, gravity. But they're the first ones who I go to try it. Wow. Yeah.

[00:04:38] Phnam: it, I mean like it's obvious

[00:04:39] Phnam: [00:04:40] Yeah.

[00:04:40] Phnam: to rotate something, but is there, what is, is there a problem entailed with it?

[00:04:45] Phnam: Well, we never tested it, right?

[00:04:47] Phnam: There's a lot of things that physically and mechanically [00:04:50] sound plausible. Uh, but like anything in space you don't know until you try. Exactly. And then the minute you put humans in these kind of environments, it um, [00:05:00] heightens the stakes of like the safety of the whole thing. Mm-hmm. Um, because it's not just like rotating the thing, it's making sure that all the hardware, software, and human systems work together to [00:05:10] make sure that the, it's safe enough for humans to be in there.

[00:05:12] Phnam: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:14] Phnam: It, it still feels like we are

[00:05:16] Phnam: we're

[00:05:16] Phnam: building very much for. The way [00:05:20] we're building things on earth. We have rooms and the, the, the science fiction movies, uh, I keep remembering they look still, they look like a room [00:05:30] down here on earth with tables and chairs. Is there a way to rethink all this and, and rebuild humans?

[00:05:39] Phnam: Yeah. [00:05:40] To meet the needs of space?

[00:05:42] Phnam: I think it's going to be a happy medium. On one side, we have to create, um, um, interior design and space [00:05:50] environments that are conducive to living in space. So when you live in microgravity, right, there's no up and down directly.

[00:05:56] Phnam: So you could in fact have your table at the [00:06:00] ceiling and sit at the ceiling facing downward.

[00:06:02] Phnam: Exactly. But also a table is flat on this earth because we wanna make sure that whatever you put it is doesn't fall off the table. Yeah. But [00:06:10] that's not the rule in microgravity. So is a table even flat?

[00:06:14] Phnam: Mm.

[00:06:14] Phnam: Mm-hmm. In, in, in a station, right? Is, or is it more like a, um, [00:06:20] like something you can shove, uh, your articles in?

[00:06:23] Phnam: Right. Um, instead of a flat surface,

[00:06:26] Phnam: I'm, I'm, I'm immediately thinking a, a spherical [00:06:30] table, for example. Would it make sense? But

[00:06:33] Phnam: Maybe it's soft, maybe it's spherical. Maybe there are holes in it. So if you want to put an apple on that table, [00:06:40] you would actually shove it in and secure it in play. Mm-hmm. Right. Um, so everything is

[00:06:45] Phnam: because it would float away.

[00:06:46] Phnam: Exactly. Or the, the point of a table is [00:06:50] to make.

[00:06:51] Phnam: Another object, um, accessible to you and make that object stable in, in space. Right? Um, so we have to like, kinda like come [00:07:00] back to first principles. What is the table? What is the purpose of the table? And how would it be used in an environment that doesn't have gravity? And also the way you move around the table, [00:07:10] right?

[00:07:10] Phnam: Right now we use either chairs or our legs to move around the table. In space, you have to float around. So how do you. Brace yourself, how to use your feet or your arms or other [00:07:20] parts of your body to make that table usable for yourself. These are the kind of questions we have to, to answer as space architects, right?

[00:07:29] Phnam: And [00:07:30] we start a lot with assumptions. Mm-hmm. And then we're able to test it in different environments, uh, you know, underwater or in like parabolic flights. And then eventually, [00:07:40] once our designs are, are, are flown, uh, you know, to a space station. Otherwise, uh, then we can. See if it works.

[00:07:48] Phnam: the, the International Space Station [00:07:50] as we know it right now, has nothing to do with what you're saying right now because this is still old school architecture. This is, this is [00:08:00] Terran architecture, terrestrial architecture put into space. Right.

[00:08:04] Phnam: Well, the thing is that the International Space, international Space Station, even though it's been in space for like 25 years, was [00:08:10] actually designed in the eighties, built in the nineties, launched in the early two thousands, and assembled and grown since then. Right. And so the. Essentially the architecture of the [00:08:20] ISS is quite old in many ways, and, and the culture in which it was built is quite old as well.

[00:08:25] Phnam: Uh, it was not wrong, it was just like the best of the time, right? It was mainly [00:08:30] engineer, systems engineer, mechanical engineers, aerospace engineers, working together to make this lab in space. So right now it looks like a lab that's been up there for 25 years with like stuff [00:08:40] all over the, all over the walls, right?

[00:08:42] Phnam: That is to be expected of, of expected of that era of space station. Now we have. More of an [00:08:50] understanding of human experience, user experience, integration of technology, digital technology, physical technology and things like that. So as we design a [00:09:00] supportive ex, uh, experience in space, we think of, uh, individual behavior.

[00:09:05] Phnam: We think of psychology. We think of, uh, the psychology of color, who think of [00:09:10] culture, who think of the quality of food, uh, that people have access to. So all these things come together in a way that goes beyond. Military style, barely ma [00:09:20] survival, and then goes into. More of a, of an era of living in space or thriving in space.

[00:09:27] Phnam: Right. And this has implication on, [00:09:30] uh, health and wellbeing on what happens if you stay for longer amounts of time in space. 'cause right now, I'll say the average stay aboard interest space station is six months. And [00:09:40] usually it's like highly trained professional astronauts going up there. But then we're going to send more and more.

[00:09:46] Phnam: You know, space place participants, you just go there for like a few [00:09:50] days, or when we decide to go to Mars, that's going to be two and a half, three years. Mm-hmm. So the implications of human behaviors and the technology that's, uh, necessary to, to, to [00:10:00] support that are going to be vastly different. Mm-hmm.

[00:10:04] Phnam: Should we pre prepare for gravity in space in architecture, or is [00:10:10] gravity in space still way down the road because we don't have it? So you're, you're planning for the zero gravity architecture and design?

[00:10:18] Phnam: yeah, I think we need, we need to [00:10:20] plan for multiple types of gravity. So artificial gravity would be wonderful down the line. You know, it will happen at some point.

[00:10:26] Phnam: We just need to go through the 20,000 steps necessary to make it happen [00:10:30] at scale. We need to design for microgravity because that's what we know at this point. You know, if we stay in lu orbit, uh, that's likely what we're going to live with. Now, microgravity [00:10:40] has, uh, implication on human bodies. That is, is quite.

[00:10:43] Phnam: Bad, you know, you age much faster in microgravity. Like a lot of people talk about radiation, uh, in [00:10:50] space, but radiation is actually not that big of a problem in the earth orbit because of the protection of the, uh, the, uh, earth earth's magnetic sphere. Now if you go to Mars and beyond,

[00:10:59] Phnam: [00:11:00] Then it's a problem,

[00:11:01] Phnam: Uh, but radiation is, is fine. Um. Microgravity, however, is a huge problem, right? Like, um, the fact that on [00:11:10] earth we have evolved as humans to have gravity essentially push the majority of our blood to the bottom half of our body is something we used to in [00:11:20] space. That's not how it is. The, the, the blood is evenly spread while the body, which means our face are bigger and our, our legs are very small and, you know, that can lead to.[00:11:30]

[00:11:30] Phnam: You know, uh, space blindness or, you know, um, some certain things happening with the vascular system in the brain and things like that. So, um, so we have to [00:11:40] like work. For this and work very closely with, you know, experts in space medicine. And most importantly, we have to experiment with everything. 'cause we can come up with all the theories, [00:11:50] you know, uh, that we can un until we test them, we actually don't know.

[00:11:54] Phnam: Mm-hmm. Another type of gravity that we're going to, uh, explore very soon is partial [00:12:00] gravity. So going on the surface of the moon or on the surface of Mars. So that's one six or one third of the earth's gravity. Uh, we actually don't know what happens. Uh, you know, in the long [00:12:10] term, you know, we've been on the moon for like a couple days at most.

[00:12:12] Phnam: Um, that doesn't tell you anything about what it does to our bodies. So if we start, uh, having settlements on [00:12:20] the moon and people stay there for six months plus, what happens to the body? Is it, is, is the implication closer to what's happening in microgravity or is it closer to what's happening on earth?[00:12:30]

[00:12:30] Phnam: And if it's closer to what's happening on earth and and health. Is is not as as impacted as much as microgravity. Perhaps we could have partial Gravity space stations instead of [00:12:40] full Earth Gravity Space Station. Uh, and in Mars we know nothing 'cause we've never. It sent humans there. Not only is the gravity one third, which is, you know, in theory sounds [00:12:50] better than one sixth on the moon, but being in isolation, like great, great distances from Earth, the fact that you can't even physically see the earth as this, like big blue [00:13:00] ball and being physically separated from the rest of humanity, having communication between both places being delayed in, in ways that is, can be like very uh, [00:13:10] uh, disturbing.

[00:13:11] Phnam: All of that will have indication health, uh, mental health of physical health, uh, social health. Mm-hmm.

[00:13:18] Phnam: What is [00:13:20] the next step in in space architecture? Because now we know we have

[00:13:25] Phnam: here? International

[00:13:25] Phnam: Space Station. We know that's old school. What could be, what would a [00:13:30] new Space Station look like? Or what will the next Space Station look like?

[00:13:33] Phnam: Yeah. There, there are multiple, uh, going up there. I mean, the, the Chinese Space Station is on orbit, right? Um, [00:13:40] we don't really talk about it much in the us but it is there and is doing very well.

[00:13:44] Phnam: Um, so that is a newer design for sure. And there, um. Um, you know, private [00:13:50] companies, commercial space station companies, so I mentioned Vast earlier. That's, uh, launching Haven one probably later this year or next year. Uh, Axion Space. Um, you know, uh, thinking about [00:14:00] that too, you know, like, and, uh, Sierra Space as well.

[00:14:03] Phnam: They're, they're thinking about launching a specifically an inflatable module, uh, as a space station. [00:14:10] What's very interesting about using inflatables is that you can actually pack, uh, a lot of that inflatable material in a, um, in a, you know, a rocket. And then that's volume [00:14:20] expands quite a bit, uh, in, um, in, uh, on orbit.

[00:14:24] Phnam: You know, like for example, the, the type of diameters that we're, we're thinking about there is like about nine meters. Which can [00:14:30] host, you know, up to like 10 astronauts per year. Fairly comfortably. Wow. Yeah.

[00:14:34] Phnam: So it's. It's like a balloon.

[00:14:37] Phnam: It's like a balloon. So it

[00:14:38] Phnam: but does, does [00:14:40] furniture inflate with it?

[00:14:41] Phnam: Uh, so that would be one of the options. Uh, and then some other options would be to have, um, you know, the furniture or the equipment being flown [00:14:50] in and then installed later, right? Because you can't have everything attached to the walls. Deflated, shoved in a, you know, paled, faring, and then shov into [00:15:00] space.

[00:15:00] Phnam: I think, um, the vibration, uh, and the, the, the, the sharpness of certain materials might, might make it like very unsafe. Hmm.

[00:15:08] Phnam: Your role is to push the [00:15:10] boundaries, and this is, this is a fantastic position to be in also as an artist. Um, um, where would you want [00:15:20] to see the boundaries push the most? Where are we? Unimaginative still,

[00:15:26] Phnam: I think, um, people [00:15:30] are starting to have a lot of talks on psychological health and what that, that that implies. Right? Like what? With that so far, we're like, oh, you know, let's create. An [00:15:40] environment that looks a little bit more like home or has like smells or colors that remind us of like something familiar.

[00:15:45] Phnam: That's a great place to start. But I think with all the incredible technology that's happening right [00:15:50] now, like with AI and with wearables and with, you know, biofeedback and all the things ready to the brain, we can actually hyper specialize and customize, um, [00:16:00] uh, care, uh, that's happening to these people who are in isolation, uh, because.

[00:16:04] Phnam: When we think about long-term space travel, let's say six plus months, um, [00:16:10] it's, we can't expect these astronauts to be the same people when they leave and when they come back

[00:16:16] Phnam: to be not affected by all

[00:16:18] Phnam: Yeah, they will be affected. [00:16:20] Um, uh, the day-to-day will affect them. Microgravity will affect them, isolation will affect them.

[00:16:23] Phnam: Seeing the same five people for the next three years will

[00:16:26] Phnam: affect.

[00:16:26] Phnam: them. And so we wanna make sure that [00:16:30] instead of pre-selecting. These people to be quote unquote perfect for the, for the mission. We wanna make sure that we allow humans to be humans. You know, we all have [00:16:40] bad days and good days. We're good at certain things, we're terrible at other things.

[00:16:43] Phnam: And so allowing, creating an environment that allows people to be these imperfect, uh, humans, [00:16:50] uh, while still making sure the mission is, um, is, is, is happening and everybody's in the same environment, is, is really. What I would like [00:17:00] to, to the, the world to focus a little bit more on.

[00:17:02] Phnam: I think we, what we're training out of artificial intelligence [00:17:10] hallucinations is exactly what we want for for humans. We want to have times where we can freely. Scramble and, and, and speak our minds and [00:17:20] hallucinate. I think this is part of what makes us human.

[00:17:22] Phnam: Yeah. Even the word surprise. Right. Terrifying to everybody at nasa. But it's important in our lives to know that certain things that [00:17:30] we haven't planned happened. Right. Because a lot of opportunities happen that way. It helps us be creative mm-hmm. And work together and, you know, maybe, um, [00:17:40] you know, get away from the day-to-day, which is, you know, mainly experiments and maintenance and getting, making sure you don't die.

[00:17:46] Phnam: Right. Um, these are very important. Obviously, that's not gonna [00:17:50] go away. But we wanna diversify what goes through people's experiences. Mm-hmm. And these quite

[00:17:55] Phnam: dangerous, uh, environments. Yeah. Mom, this environment [00:18:00] literally wants to kill us

[00:18:01] Phnam: Exactly, exactly. So even looking out the window, right, like here we are in a library and then we, we, we come over to the city of Austin, for example.

[00:18:08] Phnam: We don't see [00:18:10] what's across the window as death, but that is the case for astronauts. You know, if, you know, it's, it's a little bit harder to see because we have these beautiful pictures of, of the earth, you know, like [00:18:20] rotating around it and seeing all those countries and oceans and all that. That's, that's very, it's really easy to see the beauty of earth.

[00:18:26] Phnam: But when you're away from all of that, when you're on your way to Mars, for example, [00:18:30] and the earth is becoming more of a blue dot and the vastness of space, what are you gonna look at? You know, do you look at the blackness of space and, you [00:18:40] know, do, do you, do you find fascination in that or do you see as a threat and, and life only exists in the confines of the space [00:18:50] architecture that you live around? I

[00:18:52] Phnam: had a conversation here in Austin last year with Georgi Petro, uh, space architect, and we talked about, [00:19:00] um, windows. And it's very difficult to, to create those windows or to, to engineer those windows in the first place. So my question was, why do we [00:19:10] need windows at all? Why not put a display there and see on that display, whatever you want to see.

[00:19:16] Phnam: See a beautiful. Landscape [00:19:20] or see an ocean or whatever would, would that be a substitute to trick us into thinking that we are not in this hostile and [00:19:30] deadly environment?

[00:19:31] Phnam: Yeah, I think, uh, a mix of the two would be ideal. I think it's important to have this analog window. Uh, sure it is difficult to engineer, [00:19:40] but like the engineers are pretty clever and, you know, we, we trust we be solved.

[00:19:43] Phnam: Yeah. Well, you know, we, it has been solved. You know, we have the Coppola of bo ISS, which is honestly the favorite spots, [00:19:50] uh, of any, um. Astronauts who's ever visited, and uh, you know, even a small company, smallish company like Vast has, like from from the first space [00:20:00] station you're gonna build, are going to have a window for that specific reason.

[00:20:03] Phnam: There's a psychological, you know, effect in knowing that you can see the earth as it is right [00:20:10] through a relatively thin, um, um, window. And then. You know, displays are getting more and more sophisticated, and they can [00:20:20] trick us into, um, um, believing that, uh, something is real. Uh, but the thing is that our brain need a lot more than just a [00:20:30] visual, right?

[00:20:30] Phnam: Like, there's a lot of, um, like subliminal things are happening, like, like distance sound, that act, uh, that, that we have on earth, like a dog barking or like birds, [00:20:40] uh, uh, chirping in the distance that actually help. Kinda like, um,

[00:20:44] Phnam: three dimensional

[00:20:45] Phnam: Exactly. It, it, it, it makes us feel like we are where we are.

[00:20:49] Phnam: Mm-hmm. [00:20:50] Instead of we are in the middle of nowhere. Right. And these are the types of things that psychologically we don't really think about because they're so minute, but the minute you take them away from someone's reality. [00:21:00] That person begins to like, feel a little bit mm-hmm. Um, lost. So, so yeah, I, I'm all for, uh, the analog window and I'm all [00:21:10] for integrating more and more sophisticated display, but I also wanna think about the emotional and multi-sensory aspect of why we experience the things that we do.

[00:21:18] Phnam: Mm-hmm.[00:21:20]

[00:21:20] Phnam: I'm, I'm a big fan of, of all things forward looking, but. Considering everything that you're saying, how dangerous that [00:21:30] is and how, how many problems we need to solve. The question still remains, is this a good idea? Is it a good idea to leave our planet? At the same time, I know [00:21:40] we are built to make the next step.

[00:21:43] Phnam: This is what makes us human. We've always done that on. So I think we're, we're damned [00:21:50] to, to, to venture upward. Maybe we shouldn't say it in, in that negative way.

[00:21:55] Phnam: I was about to say Yeah. That, that sentence could be turned something positive.

[00:21:58] Phnam: Yeah. The opportunity [00:22:00] of exploring outside of what we've known so far is humanity, which is the confines of the earth is interesting. Right. There was a time not long ago where, you know, you never [00:22:10] ventured out of your city or your state or your country, and now it's pretty common for people to do that.

[00:22:16] Phnam: Mm-hmm. To explore all of these different cultures, to taste their food and to [00:22:20] live with them. Right. And so there's, there's an opening of. People's consciousness and curiosity and innovation that happens with all of that. So [00:22:30] imagine what happens when space opens its door to more of us, right? It happened very much with aviation as well.

[00:22:37] Phnam: Mm-hmm. Like it's very easy to take [00:22:40] aviation for granted or, or think that you live a life that is separated from that innovation. But the reason why we're here is because we flew here. Mm-hmm.

[00:22:48] Phnam: right?[00:22:50]

[00:22:50] Phnam: The reason there's commerce between like different countries, same thing. So, so there, there are many different, you know, uh, intricate parts of life and the way the [00:23:00] world functions that is based on these like.

[00:23:03] Phnam: Big industries like aviation, and now what's, what's coming up with space and space is going to be [00:23:10] exponentially, uh, larger, um, in ways that we, we, we haven't thought about yet that I find fascinating and that point actually about [00:23:20] these ideas that we haven't thought about yet. Um, it is very interesting because.

[00:23:25] Phnam: So far, we have relied on like space agencies and governments and, and [00:23:30] commercial space, uh, companies to come up with the ideas of like, we should do this because that's how we're gonna make money. That's how we're going to have a strong defense for x, y, z country. [00:23:40] But when we start, I. Inviting more people from outside of space industry, from outside of space countries, you know, the typical us, Europe, Russia, and all [00:23:50] that.

[00:23:50] Phnam: When we talk to people from South America or from, you know, Southeast Asia or from like subs, Seran Africa, and they have ideas about what it means to go [00:24:00] outside of the confines of the earth, um. That's where a lot of very interesting ideas come up. Right. And um, and you can see a little bit, I [00:24:10] see a lot of parallel what's going on in space right now with the history of medicine.

[00:24:14] Phnam: You know, for a long time. We have, um, I. Like forced medicine to be this like ultra [00:24:20] empirical, um, practice, uh, you know, the, the scientific methods and then testing things like doubleblind, blah, blah, blah. And we have done a lot of advancements when it comes to that. [00:24:30] But it also, that advancement also negates a lot of like how the body actually works.

[00:24:34] Phnam: Mm-hmm. Right. And so that's why some, you know, hardcore scientific people, [00:24:40] researchers and doctors today are coming back to. Ancient medicine and understanding how, you know, like, like the, the energy system in the body that was [00:24:50] discovered on all 3000 years ago, how that relates to the science of today and like full circle, right?

[00:24:55] Phnam: And so I want the future of space or or the present and the [00:25:00] future of space to really think about, okay, we look to the future and this is what we need from a power systems standpoint, from a psychological system standpoint, [00:25:10] you know, all those things. But I also wanna. Refer to the past, you know, thousands of years ago when people dreaming about the stars.

[00:25:17] Phnam: What was the motivation? You know, [00:25:20] what's, what did they see in this? And what does it mean to, to get outside of the natural world that we know? Mm-hmm. And explore. Right? And there are some physi, [00:25:30] philosophical, wonderful stories that can come out of it, but also innovation when it comes to making that space architecture.

[00:25:37] Phnam: We're gonna live in a lot more [00:25:40] meaningful for us

[00:25:40] Phnam: humans, do you see this happening somewhere already? And those, those [00:25:50] worlds collide and flow into one another.

[00:25:53] Phnam: Yeah, I mean, you know, I, I'm, I'm involved in like talking to different people in different parts of the world and [00:26:00] you know, I was having this conversation a couple years ago with some high school students in Chile, for example, and, uh, and they were like very curious about space and, and, and they were like, oh, you know, [00:26:10] we have this like long lost tradition of growing potatoes at super high altitude when there's almost no oxygen.

[00:26:16] Phnam: And I'm like, well that sounds very much like Mars, right? Um. Is [00:26:20] there anything that we can learn from this long tradition that was based on survival of these people living in high altitude? You know, is there anything from that we can [00:26:30] transfer to space environments and make the resilience of food systems possible on places like Mars?

[00:26:36] Phnam: Interesting. Yeah,

[00:26:38] Phnam: Hmm. [00:26:40] I think in general it's, it's no secret that we have lost or ignored lots of our human culture. [00:26:50] We have built over the past millennia and thousands upon thousands of years. We live in a very, very. [00:27:00] Mind driven pocket in time. That's very young still the western culture is very young and so I think [00:27:10] there is a lot we can still learn as you, as you say, on earth.

[00:27:14] Phnam: There's so much we we can learn. We have all the me medicine and we have how we build things, how we [00:27:20] live in or coha in cohabitation with different species and whatnot. So I think we're in this respect still. [00:27:30] Rather simple minds.

[00:27:31] Phnam: Sure.

[00:27:32] Phnam: Although we think we are the culprit, we, we are the epitome. The epitome of, of evolution.

[00:27:39] Phnam: think everybody [00:27:40] in every culture thinks they're the, you know, the top of the food chain, I guess. Um, but yeah, no, uh, there are good things about the new stuff. Mm-hmm. You know, the fact that we are trying to like, [00:27:50] prove, um, the efficacy on, or, or, or charlatanism of certain concepts, I think it's very healthy.

[00:27:57] Phnam: Um, but you can't [00:28:00] shut things down just because. They sound like they are in opposition with the, the status quo today. Right? I think one thing we're sure about as, as, as humanity [00:28:10] is that we don't know a lot of things, right? And not, and, and one thing as a scientist that we have to, to, to, to accept is that very few things are a hundred percent right or a a [00:28:20] hundred percent wrong, right?

[00:28:21] Phnam: Um, and, and so coming in with this humility, um, I. Uh, in front [00:28:30] of like, certain concept is gonna be important. Um, and that's why I love this era of space because when I started in space industry 20 years ago, it was still very, um, [00:28:40] engineering driven, you know, science driven, which, you know, is fantastic. We had to start somewhere very, you know, the astronauts were like high drain, um, you know, like ex-military [00:28:50] PhD, this and that.

[00:28:51] Phnam: And again, you know, made sense for, for that time. But now we are. Involving more of, you know, the soft [00:29:00] and less measurable aspects of humans. And so that's why designers and architects have a role to play. That is quite important, right? Because we [00:29:10] understand the balance between, um, the function of things.

[00:29:13] Phnam: You know, keeping people alive is quite important. We're not gonna bypass that one, but is the function more than that, [00:29:20] right? We also have to think about, um. Uh, the, um, the, the, the aesthetics of things. 'cause for a long time, you know, in every, every like, [00:29:30] injuring Ford, um, like industries. They always think of aesthetic as a nice to have, but they don't understand that aesthetics actually has an impact on our psychological health, [00:29:40] on information hierarchy and on, uh, the efficiency of missions.

[00:29:43] Phnam: So we have to think about that too. And then the third thing, which is more prominent now that we're in a, uh, uh, [00:29:50] commercial, uh, economy is, um, the value of things. What kind of economic value does that have? What kind of value to humanity does that have? What kind of value to the way [00:30:00] we. Innovate to, um, you know, optimize our, you know, use of water, use of like resources and power and things like this so we can bring it back to earth, right?

[00:30:09] Phnam: [00:30:10] Mm-hmm. Um, so. As designers and architect, we think ab, we think about the balance of these three of, uh, function, aesthetics and, um, and, and value. And we make sure [00:30:20] that any decision that we make, uh, balances these three things. Uh, and we may talk to, you know, certain engineers that. Fully focused on function if very good at that [00:30:30] or, you know, like, uh, like, like flight surgeons or space doctors, uh, who really focus on, you know, keeping people alive.

[00:30:37] Phnam: But really is the balance of these three and [00:30:40] making sure that whatever solution we come up with is holistic and personalized at the same time. Is, um, is what we offer, uh, future flight [00:30:50] participants.

[00:30:50] Phnam: I like that. Where, where, where is AI in all of this? Because it seems like AI is everywhere and

[00:30:57] Phnam: Yes.

[00:30:58] Phnam: and, um, [00:31:00] invading even the remotest corners of, of culture and our humanity. Where do you

[00:31:05] Phnam: AI is very, very useful in, uh, I would say [00:31:10] hyper-personalization of, of, uh, systems, whether it's physical system or, or software systems. Right. Um, for a long time we had created a lot of average [00:31:20] products, you know, an average pair of headphones or an average chair. Mm-hmm. And it. Only fits like the peak of the bell curve of, you know, human

[00:31:27] Phnam: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:28] Phnam: and, uh, which is [00:31:30] usually, you know, you know, middle age white male from the west,

[00:31:35] Phnam: yes.

[00:31:35] Phnam: and a lot of us are not that, right?

[00:31:37] Phnam: So it, it doesn't necessarily fit. And [00:31:40] because of, you know, manufacturing and the limitations of, uh, of, of, of cost, um, the adjustment of all of these, um, uh, [00:31:50] hardware solutions were very limited. And so. We integrate ai, we can make sure that every single person at a very [00:32:00] specific, um, uh, point in time gets what they need, right?

[00:32:03] Phnam: There's a, um, uh, kind like a feedback loop between sensors around us and [00:32:10] what I would call stimulators, right? The sensors that catching up our, our mood, our hardware variability, our heart rate, you know, our. Our temperature, [00:32:20] um, all the things that we, our EG like brain, brain waves, um, activity. So having that information feeds into the AI machine and then [00:32:30] gives, gives us what we need when we need it.

[00:32:32] Phnam: And simulation can be the architecture itself, right? Like how is it designed and does, is it conducive to health and wellbeing? And then you can have [00:32:40] like customization of. The light, the color of the light, right? As humans, we want, we we're, we used to the circadian rhythm day and night. There's the colors of the [00:32:50] morning, the colors of the sunset.

[00:32:52] Phnam: What happens in the middle of the day? What happens throughout the year when we use the seasons? Right? Are there artificial ways to bring that [00:33:00] back in that fully artificial environment to. Ground, um, the people go made up to space and grounding is a very interesting [00:33:10] concept, especially when there's no ground, right? So what does grounding mean, right? Um, 'cause some people talk about grounding when it comes, comes to [00:33:20] meditation or yoga or other types of practices that really recenter us and make sure that we're not freaking out at the next, uh, episode of, you know, something happening. But [00:33:30] grounding, and that's a question I've been asking myself, like, how do you ground people when there's no ground, right?

[00:33:35] Phnam: Like, do you do that with that hyper-personalized environment that can come, that can be [00:33:40] supported by ai? Do you do it with, you know, certain imagery like for example, the imagery of the earth and how beautiful it is, or the imagery of the people that we love, um, and [00:33:50] communicating with them whether they're actually there or they're like an AI talking to you.

[00:33:54] Phnam: All of that are things that we know very little about because we haven't tested them. So I'm very, very [00:34:00] excited about the next, you know, I would say decade or two where we're going to experiment a lot, um, and get a lot of answers.

[00:34:08] Phnam: Fantastic. Maybe it's [00:34:10] all about also finding that ground within, um, ground. If there's no like physical ground on the outside, maybe you should look on the [00:34:20] inside and maybe meditation should be, um, a part of our daily. Whatever we do all day long in space, [00:34:30] our daily routine

[00:34:32] Phnam: Well, meditation, the thing is it works for some people. It doesn't work for others. Right? Like one of the many jobs that I have is, um, I, I teach, [00:34:40] um, creativity and innovation to police departments within the us And I can't walk in a room and start using the word meditation.

[00:34:47] Phnam: Like half of the police depart would just shut me down. Yeah. Right. [00:34:50] And stop listening to me. And so I was actually taught, uh, to use, um, expressions like tactical breathing. It says the, yes, it says the [00:35:00] same thing

[00:35:00] Phnam: Makes me more stronger

[00:35:01] Phnam: but in the culture of police department, that is acceptable. Nice. Right?

[00:35:07] Phnam: So, and language is so incredibly [00:35:10] important. You know, in space, typically you have to know, you know, English and Russian at this point, um, depending on Space Station, you might have to know Chinese and then. Then, you know, everybody [00:35:20] brings the culture and the subtlety of use of language. Um, uh, when, when, when we go anywhere, uh, including space.

[00:35:28] Phnam: So how can we kinda like [00:35:30] open all of that as well to, to, to bring a lot more authenticity and a lot more a like, like, like. Customization of the [00:35:40] space and the, the dialogues that are happening in those environments by using precise language. Mm-hmm. Right. Uh, one of the things, for example, when it comes to like, uh, [00:35:50] social and psychological health, um, you have to be very precise with the way you describe your emotions and how you feel.

[00:35:56] Phnam: Right? Like nonviolent communication is like that. That's

[00:35:59] Phnam: what they teach.[00:36:00]

[00:36:00] Phnam: So how are you. How are you going to be very precise in your language if the language is not fluent to you? Right. Perhaps technology can help you with that. Perhaps, uh, subliminal, [00:36:10] like nonverbal ways of expressing your emotions

[00:36:15] Phnam: Can't help you with that.

[00:36:16] Phnam: Uh, I don't have answer answers at this point, but I think these are the [00:36:20] types of areas that at some point, need to be explored and turned into, you know, positive ways of creating these environments. Hmm.[00:36:30]

[00:36:31] Phnam: do you think

[00:36:33] Phnam: the

[00:36:33] Phnam: folks who will be living in space in the future, I. [00:36:40] Are still not, of course there's the same species, homo sapiens, but will they evolve into something different? Because [00:36:50] we're made for, we're made for Earth. Earth has given birth to us. Yeah. So if we're like living for hundreds of years in a [00:37:00] different space, this is something new.

[00:37:01] Phnam: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, and if you've seen the, the, the series, the Expanse, yes, you actually see the differences. You know, people who grew up on, on Mars [00:37:10] versus people who grew up on Earth. And that's a wonderful way to extrapolate what might happen.

[00:37:14] Phnam: Now, in reality, we actually don't know, you know, people who grew up on, on Mars might be. [00:37:20] Might use oxygen and, you know, bone density and all that the same way as we do. We don't know. Theoretically it might be different. Right. And so, um, so [00:37:30] really thinking about how, um, how evolution happens. Like evolution naturally happens very slowly.

[00:37:37] Phnam: The environment changes and you know, it takes a [00:37:40] million years. And so for something to change, um, uh, radically in a species, um. Based on how fast we wanna reach the Moon [00:37:50] and Mars and like deep space, uh, we'll have to evolve a lot faster than that. And so there are talks about, you know, pre-selecting certain types of people [00:38:00] to go up there.

[00:38:00] Phnam: I. Who might have like, higher levels of resilience when it comes to certain aspects of life, like radiation or whatever. So that's number one. We can also look at [00:38:10] epigenetics, right? Like, like the, the, uh, expression of certain genes that change based on the environment. Um, uh, there also, you know, [00:38:20] biological changes that we can, uh, we, we can talk about if you want to go full sci-fi, you know, changing certain limbs, uh, to, um, to adapt to [00:38:30] different.

[00:38:30] Phnam: Gravity is, for example. I don't know what that looks like at this point because we don't know what the needs are specifically, but perhaps that's possible. You know, there are a lot of experiments right now in, uh, [00:38:40] bioprinting organs in space because it's possible to do it, uh, in microgravity and very difficult to do it on Earth.

[00:38:46] Phnam: 'cause on earth you would have to have like scaffold in the 3D printing [00:38:50] and makes it very difficult to print entire organs, for example. So we are doing, um, the, they are doing, I'm not doing it a lot of that in space right now. And so. [00:39:00] What if we engineered, you know, space hearts, let's call them, you know, that are not designed to function on earth.

[00:39:09] Phnam: You know, our heart [00:39:10] has a, a structure and a geometry that works because you know

[00:39:15] Phnam: Of gravity.

[00:39:15] Phnam: of gravity of gravity. It's, it, it helps the blood circulates throughout the [00:39:20] whole body the way it is designed for this earth. But maybe in microgravity, you would need a rounder heart.

[00:39:26] Phnam: Right.

[00:39:26] Phnam: because then maybe it pumps differently or you know, like, [00:39:30] I don't know, like that's again, all theory and all sci-fi, but perhaps we could engineer space organs for long-term space dwellers [00:39:40] that help us catch up on human evolution in a way that doesn't shorten our lifespan and allows us to do things that we do like exploring, you know, the edge of [00:39:50] the solar system, for

[00:39:50] Phnam: Example, that's a crazy thought, but it's not, I think it's not that far away because we're already, we are tweaking, [00:40:00] tweaking ourselves, our bodies. Yeah. So I think it's not that far off because we know how to replace hearts. I think, um, sur [00:40:10] surgery is pretty far advanced

[00:40:14] Phnam: On earth. Yeah. Because, you know, um, you know, cauterizing and, you know, using gravity [00:40:20] to, to, to make sure that you don't bleed off is, is, is is something we take advantage on this earth. You know, sur open surgery is not really a thing up there, you know, we know how to like close [00:40:30] wounds.

[00:40:30] Phnam: Um, but like open heart surgery is gonna take probably a. Few more decades. Um, but it has to happen at some point, right? Like there's certain big questions about the [00:40:40] future of humanity we have to put on the table at some point, like growing a fetus. You know, do we do that? Do, when do we do that Ethically?

[00:40:48] Phnam: Started with conception. Yeah. That's the [00:40:50] first problem. That's completely unsolved. Yeah.

[00:40:52] Phnam: Because we don't know, we haven't tried. Right. Um, and like, who tries first and under which conditions is it ethically? [00:41:00] Okay. And what do we do with it? Right? Um, so conception, uh, even conception, like just having sex, like people have, you know, this like weird taboo about like having sex in [00:41:10] spaces if like nobody has done it.

[00:41:11] Phnam: Let's be real.

[00:41:12] Phnam: Yeah, exactly.

[00:41:13] Phnam: Yeah. So, and then conception and then, you know, growth of a embryo to the fetus, to to birth, you know, [00:41:20] um, are the advantages to it, you know, we don't know. Mm-hmm. Um, um, uh, is, is the fetus even going to, to develop normally? Mm-hmm. [00:41:30] Um, we, we, we have absolutely no idea. Does it make sense to grow a baby?

[00:41:34] Phnam: Inside of a woman's womb, or does it make sense to use technology like exogenesis, which is [00:41:40] basically a bag with the embryo, embryo, fetus, uh, growing in it

[00:41:44] Phnam: that's impossible to mess with. I mean, like not even one embryo can be [00:41:50] experimented on. I mean, like what do you think

[00:41:53] Phnam: I mean, I think like the, like cloning on earth, we're gonna start with like small organism [00:42:00] and then we're gonna go into mammals, and then eventually someone, somewhere is gonna try it on humans, right? Mm-hmm. So, so I, I think it's just a matter of time and a matter of like, uh, ethical [00:42:10] alignment and understanding if, if it makes sense.

[00:42:14] Phnam: And of course, the economic side of things is, is gonna play a role as well. But right now, you know, I don't think a lot [00:42:20] of people have the. And, you know, any motivation to do that today, but that might change in 20 years and we don't know. Mm-hmm. Right. And this is the kind of research that's not gonna happen [00:42:30] overnight.

[00:42:30] Phnam: It's gonna take quite a few decades, uh, in the push pull between scientific advi advancement, you know, like, like engineering possibility, [00:42:40] um, uh, like financial possibility and the, the motivation of humanity as a whole.

[00:42:45] Phnam: Hmm. Some people keep [00:42:50] asking the question, why do we have to do all this? Why do we need this? Why space? We have so many problems on earth, rightly so. [00:43:00] Good question. But at a, again. It's not this or that, it's this and

[00:43:06] Phnam: Exactly.

[00:43:06] Phnam: In, in my opinion.

[00:43:07] Phnam: So what, what's your message to those, [00:43:10] to those folks?

[00:43:11] Phnam: So number one, nobody wants to leave Earth forever. Like, like some of us are gonna stay here, you know, I think like the vast, vast majority of people alive today will not leave. [00:43:20] Um, so, so we agree on that. Um, the other thing, um, that's pretty interesting, especially as a space architect, is that [00:43:30] rethinking how we live, how we live healthily.

[00:43:34] Phnam: Um. Designing for space forces us to break everything down to first [00:43:40] principle. Who are we as a species? What does it mean to explore? What kind of innovation do we need to invent in order to make that possible? And [00:43:50] that helps us accelerate. You know, all the, all the inventions and innovation that, that are being created right now, and a lot of these [00:44:00] are not gonna make money in space.

[00:44:01] Phnam: Right? Like a, a lot of people think that, oh, you're gonna, you know, invent all those things in space and you're just gonna die there. Um, no, there are like many other applications you [00:44:10] actually make money by. Um, you're creating like dual use, uh, innovation, you know, things developed for the military for space, uh, environments that are dual [00:44:20] use, uh, for earth, right?

[00:44:21] Phnam: You turn them into businesses, these bus businesses flourish and et cetera, et cetera. So, and, and there are many examples of that in the past, you know, solar, uh, [00:44:30] panels, for example, water filtration systems. We don't think about it when we turn on the tap and are able to drink the water, but that was kinda like an invention that was refined by necessity [00:44:40] because.

[00:44:40] Phnam: We couldn't send humans to space without that system. Right. Wireless communication devices, you know, when we, when we talk, you know, on Zoom calls or, [00:44:50] you know, to talking to our family on, on, on our phones, it's, it's, uh, these are technologies that were necessary for us to invent many decades ago, and we're able [00:45:00] to miniaturize and reduce the cost and make it available to everyone.

[00:45:04] Phnam: So once we open the, the space economy to more people and, and, and, and make [00:45:10] living in space a lot more, more and more like welcoming to everyone, um, many, many more of these innovations and technologies are going to [00:45:20] appear. And, you know, there, there are certain big problems that we need to solve on this planet.

[00:45:25] Phnam: One is climate change. Two is like the health and wellbeing of humans and how we [00:45:30] treat, you know, the natural world. Um. I believe that all of that can actually be helped by the methodologies we use in, in, in, [00:45:40] in solvings for space. Mm-hmm. Right. One

[00:45:43] Phnam: problem still remains. That's the human software. Uh, that's,

[00:45:48] Phnam: human software.

[00:45:48] Phnam: the human [00:45:50] software, the human software. Um, so this is. This brought us into the mess and into also, of course, all those cultural [00:46:00] achievements we have. So it's not only that.

[00:46:02] Phnam: Mm-hmm. But

[00:46:03] Phnam: currently it seems like we're in a mess, um, as, as a species because there's so many issues [00:46:10] we, we have, uh, run ourselves into.

[00:46:13] Phnam: So is the human software also of interest for a space architect?[00:46:20]

[00:46:20] Phnam: Yes, absolutely. And you know. Let's forget about space for a second. What's going on with the human software is that humans have evolved to be a certain way where we [00:46:30] live and we thrive in certain environments that we've created for ourselves. And then technology is doing wonderful thing for us, right?

[00:46:36] Phnam: Like making life a lot more efficient [00:46:40] and and fun and all those things, but it's also overwhelmed the way our brain works, right? We have. All the choices in the world at all times, [00:46:50] you know, anywhere in the world. And so because of that, we don't experience natural things like, I dunno, boredom or, um, the fact that our, uh, [00:47:00] communities are smaller and we can have very deep, uh, relationships.

[00:47:03] Phnam: Now we have relationships with people across the world that are not necessarily superficial. Right? And so this [00:47:10] difference in how. We as humans adapt to the environment we've created artificially is, I would say at the root of a lot of what's wrong in this world today. [00:47:20] Right. And it's not like it, it's inherently wrong, it's just that we haven't adapted to it.

[00:47:24] Phnam: Mm-hmm. Right? Um, and so when we think about living in space or [00:47:30] exploring farther in the solar system, um, like how do we take that and how do we. You know, adapt to this like, other [00:47:40] level of otherness of, of, um, of, of things that we are not evolved to, to be comfortable in. And so we continue to [00:47:50] invent new ways of adapting to it by making ourselves feel more comfortable, you know, uh, electric.

[00:47:58] Phnam: Um, creating environments that are a [00:48:00] little bit more familiar, re-injecting culture where culture doesn't exist. Um, so, so that's where designers, creatives, creators of all kind, like try to do, but [00:48:10] that's always in opposition to mm-hmm. Um, you know, the engineering and the financial decisions that are being made.

[00:48:16] Phnam: Right. And so I think this push pull of like, [00:48:20] what are we doing? How are we doing it? And most importantly, why are we

[00:48:23] Phnam: doing it?

[00:48:24] Phnam: That is the kind of questions that, you know, I. Feels like space policy [00:48:30] mm-hmm. Need to be thinking about Pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty hard. Right. Um,

[00:48:35] Phnam: I'd love to see, uh. A blue origin, a SpaceX for [00:48:40] astronauts, for, for, because they're about the rockets. They're about the, the buildings and the infrastructure. But I'd love to see the same effort [00:48:50] also for the humans,

[00:48:52] Phnam: Yeah. How

[00:48:52] Phnam: to evolve ourselves. And maybe that could be a fantastical blueprint for the rest of us down here on Earth.[00:49:00]

[00:49:00] Phnam: I mean, what they're doing is that they're, they're enabling other experts in the human software and the human, uh, health and wellbeing to do that, you know, by sending, um, [00:49:10] you know, astronauts on their rockets by creating space stations that, uh, can create environments for, uh, experiments are humans and experiments.

[00:49:18] Phnam: Um. [00:49:20] You know, that, that, that are being flown up there. So I think we, we'll need a, a little bit of everything. And I love the fact that there are many, you know, uh, smaller [00:49:30] companies that are burgeoning in biotech mm-hmm. Or in, uh, pharmaceuticals and, you know, robotics and other types of technologies that are piggybacking on these, [00:49:40] um.

[00:49:41] Phnam: On these like rocket companies that you call them, uh, in order to make this happen. You know, like universities from all over the world that's sending experiments in like [00:49:50] CubeSats, isn't that incredible? Right? Like 20, 30 years ago it was like very hard to

[00:49:54] Phnam: Because it's now, it's affordable.

[00:49:56] Phnam: It is affordable, and there are like, um, [00:50:00] you know, like systems put in place that make it possible for people to do

[00:50:03] Phnam: Mm.

[00:50:04] Phnam: um, safely.

[00:50:05] Phnam: Right? Um, and I love the idea of having like countries [00:50:10] that, you know, in the west we consider as, you know, poor or, or not having the resources possible to go to space to dream. And know that in their lifetime [00:50:20] something's gonna happen in their own country. Right. It can start small, like, you know, borrowing a neighboring country's, um, you know, remote sensing satellite to get information about agriculture, for [00:50:30] example.

[00:50:30] Phnam: You can start there, right? As a, as a, as a, uh, as a country. I've actually, um, as visited Nigeria last year and visited, um, the Nycom set. [00:50:40] So they're working with the Chinese and, um, you know. Getting a lot of information in agriculture doing that way. So, and then doing a lot of, uh, research next door on them.

[00:50:49] Phnam: [00:50:50] On like, uh, human health as well. So they're starting small and then eventually they're gonna build an entire culture within the country that strives to know more about [00:51:00] all of that. And what I love about having multiple countries doing that is that they're all going to have their own flavor of what's important to them culturally, right?

[00:51:07] Phnam: Certain countries are gonna care very much about, [00:51:10] you know, power consumption and cleanliness of water. Other people are going to be. Interested in food and culture. Other countries are going to be interested in like, how do we make it as low [00:51:20] cost as possible? So the farmer who lives off of like $10 a month can actually, uh, benefit from it.

[00:51:26] Phnam: So, so that diversity of why space and why [00:51:30] for everyone on this planet is so incredibly important right

[00:51:33] Phnam: now and interesting. You're a very inspiring person.

[00:51:36] Phnam: Thank you.

[00:51:37] Phnam: are we gonna make it through that filter?[00:51:40]

[00:51:40] Phnam: Through the

[00:51:40] Phnam: that filter? The, the, the grand filter of technological advanced civilizations making it. Into not destroying [00:51:50] themselves. So there's this theory of a great filter any technological civilization needs to go through, and there's always the risk that there's a [00:52:00] certain point for technological civilizations to at some point destroy themselves.

[00:52:05] Phnam: Yeah.

[00:52:05] Phnam: Um. It's not if it's when, [00:52:10] right. Um, it will happen at some point. Now, is it going to happen in a lifetime? I, I don't know. I, I, I don't think so. I think we have at the same times as [00:52:20] a lot of bad things are happening, we're also, I. Learning a lot about human resilience. Mm-hmm. And about resilience of systems that we're inventing.

[00:52:28] Phnam: Um, because we [00:52:30] are a very global species now, there's a lot of checking in, you know, when something is going the wrong way, you have a lot of alarms going up. And, and I think that's very healthy to have [00:52:40] societies that allow for that to happen. Now we need to continue living in, you know, democracies or, or types of like political systems that allow for these, uh, red, red [00:52:50] flags to be.

[00:52:51] Phnam: To, to be flown. Um, so the right people at the right time can, uh, can, can, can prevent disasters from happening, but it. [00:53:00] You know, back in the day, whoever has power was the government and the people not so much. Right. And now because of, you know, the entrepreneurial [00:53:10] spirits of, and, and different centers around the world, that's, that allows for like individuals to come up with these grand ideas that they can develop in a number of years.

[00:53:17] Phnam: Allows for these [00:53:20] guardrails to be put in place and for innovation to be, um, to, to, to happen. And, and for, for ideas to be tested quickly. [00:53:30] Right? And it's important to test ideas quickly because all ideas start with assumptions. You know, the world wants this, I can offer this. Mm-hmm. Therefore it's going to be successful.

[00:53:38] Phnam: That's an assumption, right? That [00:53:40] like that every entrepreneur thinks about. But the only way you can validate assumptions is to make sure that one, you test it thoroughly, and two, that you happen to do it at the right [00:53:50] place, at the right time, right? And so. So, so yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty exciting on earth and in space, how the entrepreneurial spirit [00:54:00] is accelerating all of that, and also checking the balances, uh, at the same time.

[00:54:06] Phnam: Would you go into space if the call came?

[00:54:09] Phnam: Yes, but [00:54:10] I would go to space for a very specific reason. Um, I, I'm not the kind of person who like grew up dreaming of going to space and I thought it was [00:54:20] fascinating, but I always saw space as this, the, a very uncomfortable mm-hmm. Environment, which is probably why I'm a space architect. That then my motivation was how do we fix this?

[00:54:29] Phnam: [00:54:30] So if I'm invited to go to space. I would like to actually fix it, right? I would like to go in with like a bunch of equipment and drill and things like that. I would like to transform, you [00:54:40] know, an ISS looking environment, which is honestly like a mess, um, into this like health and wellbeing supporting environment, you know, [00:54:50] integrating the beautiful colors of light and, you know, like, uh, like, like plants, uh, you know, technology that is supportive of, of people's.

[00:54:59] Phnam: [00:55:00] Your needs day, day in, day out, um, you know, communication, uh, devices that help with that, like sound systems that don't, you know, overwhelm you every day, [00:55:10] toilets that function, you know, all, all those things, all those problems that, you know, we've accepted as, as good enough, I would like to make them [00:55:20] exceptional.

[00:55:20] Phnam: Mm-hmm. You know, to me the future of, of space architecture has the potential of almost being better than the way we design homes on earth. Hmm. Right. Like we [00:55:30] don't really think that far because right now going to space is so expensive and so complex and all the levels of TRL that you have to climbs are, are, are, you know, take a lot of [00:55:40] time and, and, and brains to, to go through.

[00:55:42] Phnam: But if we really think about the North Star, like, like what do we want space architecture to be? I want. [00:55:50] Humanity to be comfortable and, and, and supported wherever we live. Whether it's microgravity, partial gravity, nowhere in space, going on a, you know, [00:56:00] 1000, um, year trajectory in a, in deep space, or staying on earth or even being underwater, right?

[00:56:07] Phnam: Like anywhere we live should [00:56:10] support us and design technology and the cleverness of humanity can get us there. Mm-hmm.

[00:56:17] Phnam: a question I keep asking every. [00:56:20] Guest on this show.

[00:56:20] Phnam: Yes.

[00:56:21] Phnam: And that question is, if you go to space, it's usually a very boring journey because of the vast distances. So to keep [00:56:30] yourself sane and healthy, what's the one piece of music you would want to bring in your playlist? Because we have a Spotify playlist for the aspiring space Traveler.

[00:56:39] Phnam: [00:56:40] What's your piece?

[00:56:41] Phnam: oh wow. Um,

[00:56:43] Phnam: Whatever. Whatever kind of music you want to pick.

[00:56:47] Phnam: Um. [00:56:50] Oh, wow. That's an interesting question. I'm going through like a bunch of albums and artists and all that right now. Um, I'd have to think about it. I am, I'm [00:57:00] actually a big Bjork fan. Um. She had an album that, that, that came out a few years ago called Biophilia. And it's, [00:57:10] yeah. And it's, uh, it's, it's an album where each song, uh, goes after a, an aspect of the natural world, like the crystal world or, you know, like [00:57:20] other types of living world.

[00:57:21] Phnam: And I think. It almost feels like you are among nature when you listen to that album. And I think one of the things that you are going to miss the most [00:57:30] is, you know, being surrounded by what we, what we call nature, even those spaces, nature, you know, like, like the air around us, the crystals that are, that are, [00:57:40] you know, grew the ground or the trees or you know, even other humans, um, having a sound.

[00:57:49] Phnam: [00:57:50] Representation of that and the way she writes music and the way she interprets music and the way the musicians, uh, work around her, uh, I think would be [00:58:00] wonderful.

[00:58:00] Phnam: What's the one tune from biophilia?

[00:58:04] Phnam: uh, oh gosh, I

[00:58:06] Phnam: Because you can only bring one or do you want me to pick one? Yeah, sure. [00:58:10] I pick one for you.

[00:58:10] Phnam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:58:11] Phnam: But you need to then live with it on your voyage, um, in space. Yeah. So that's the one I'll be picking for you,

[00:58:18] Phnam: Okay. Okay, sounds [00:58:20] good.

[00:58:20] Phnam: Um. The show is called the Space Cafe Podcast. It's a coffee place, and now you now and then you go into coffee places to energize [00:58:30] yourself by having a strong coffee.

[00:58:32] Phnam: Now I challenge you to to share an espresso for the mind with us, with the audience. What could be a shot [00:58:40] of inspiration you would like to share with me, with the audience from whatever walk of life or topic you want to pick it from?

[00:58:49] Phnam: [00:58:50] Sure. Um. If the subject of space architecture is interesting to you or the, the, the, the, the subject of humans in space? Um, I would, [00:59:00] I would, uh, do some research on, um, uh, Kosky. I can't remember his first name, like Vladimir or something like that. He's a guy who lived in the eight, late 18 hundreds in [00:59:10] nowhere.

[00:59:10] Phnam: Siberia lived in like a one room. Tiny Shaq with like his whole like 15 people, family. He was a teacher who was, I believe, deaf. [00:59:20] And, um, he is, as we know, the first person to draw how humans will live in space. Oh yeah. And so you can see he's drawing [00:59:30] in a, in the weirdest museum I've ever been to called the, um.

[00:59:34] Phnam: The Museum of Jurassic Technology in Los Angeles, California. Uh, it's a [00:59:40] very, very strange place, but I absolutely recommend you go there and you can see originals of his drawings. And you can see like space capsule and people floating around. Imagine [00:59:50] like late 18 hundreds drawings and yeah, he, he wrote a lot in his journals about like how he imagined life in space being, and this is like before we've ever [01:00:00] sent anything up there.

[01:00:01] Phnam: So, so discovering him was quite life changing for me and I hope it does that to other people.

[01:00:09] Phnam: [01:00:10] Fantastic. Thank you so much for taking the time. It was a pleasure.

[01:00:13] Phnam: having me.

[01:00:14] Markus: What we build out there is [01:00:20] who we become

[01:00:21] Markus: as humans. This is one of the key moments I'm

[01:00:24] Markus: taking away from that conversation. I'm very grateful to

[01:00:27] Markus: have sat down with PanAm [01:00:30] with this prominent figure in space architecture

[01:00:35] Markus: to talk about who we will become.

[01:00:37] Markus: 'cause space architecture is not just [01:00:40] about building

[01:00:40] Markus: for the void, it's about building for our own

[01:00:43] Markus: souls. And this is what drives

[01:00:46] Markus: me crazy. And at the same time, what [01:00:50] inspires me deeply that we live in that pocket in time like

[01:00:55] Markus: never before in human history, where we are [01:01:00] reshaping everything we have taken for granted.

[01:01:05] Markus: and Framing it into something

[01:01:08] Markus: essentially new. [01:01:10] How great can that be? Of course, we live in a very friction la moment in time, but I deeply believe [01:01:20] that we're headed for a fantastic future.

[01:01:23] Markus: So my friends, if you are taking value from that conversation, consider [01:01:30] giving it to someone who you think could take value from it as well. Um, send a link as a surprise gift or [01:01:40] recommend it to someone whenever you meet that person. That would really mean a lot to me. And, um, well, of course, if you have [01:01:50] time, give our show a rating or to, or review an Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

[01:01:57] Markus: Um, and thanks for your loyalty. [01:02:00] This is truly appreciated. Seriously, from the bottom of my heart. Um, I talked to

[01:02:06] Markus: you in two weeks from now. Looking forward to it. [01:02:10] Bye-bye.