Planet Earth, Digitized: Can ESA’s Virtual Twin Save Us?

This week, Simonetta Cheli, Director of Earth Observation Programs at the European Space Agency (ESA), joins Markus to dive into one of the most ambitious and groundbreaking projects of our time: building a digital twin of our planet. Through Destination Earth (DestinE), ESA is creating a dynamic, real-time model of Earth—a tool designed to simulate future scenarios, test the impact of human decisions, and ultimately help us better care for our fragile world.

Quotable Insights

• “We’re giving Earth a voice. Our satellites are the planet’s way of telling us what’s happening—and what’s coming next.” – Simonetta Cheli
• “We don’t need more data to know we must act. We need to use the data we already have to make change visible and urgent.”
• “Europe is a world leader in Earth observation—both in technology and in making data available for all.”

Cosmic Timeline (Timestamps)

• [00:00:00] Simonetta’s first-hand story of shrinking rivers and climate signals
• [00:01:00] Introduction: Giving Earth a voice through digital twins
• [00:02:05] What Earth observation means and why it matters today
• [00:05:00] Looking in the mirror: How satellites diagnose the planet’s health
• [00:09:00] 30+ years of Copernicus satellite data and its value for the future
• [00:12:00] ESA’s Destination Earth: building a sandbox for global “what-if” scenarios
• [00:17:00] CO₂ tracking, biomass missions, and carbon accountability
• [00:19:30] Europe’s unique leadership in Earth observation and data openness
• [00:23:00] Integrating AI: The promise and challenges of machine-driven insights
• [00:27:00] Real-world applications: from urban planning to disaster response
• [00:29:00] Personal moments: What surprised Simonetta the most from space data
• [00:32:00] A journey to Greenland: confronting the speed of melting ice
• [00:34:00] Do we really need more data—or more action?
• [00:37:00] How satellites connect citizens to the consequences of their choices
• [00:41:00] ESA’s efforts in education, outreach, and startup support
• [00:45:00] Simonetta’s vision: Earth observation as a planetary voice
• [00:46:00] Music choice and final reflections

Relevant Links and References

• ESA Earth Observation
• Destination Earth (DestinE)
• Copernicus Programme

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Simonetta Cheli: We don't need much more detail. I think we need the continuous use of the facto data we have to make everybody convinced of the seriousness of the [00:00:10] matter. 

[00:00:11] Markus: Hello everyone. This is the Space Cafe Podcast, and I'm Markus. Imagine you could talk to Planet Earth [00:00:20] just like you would to someone close to you. Ask her how she feels. ask her what's happening deep beneath oceans or how she feels about our global [00:00:30] shift toward electric vehicles.

[00:00:32] Markus: Ask her if it's okay to build that road that seems so desperately needed. How would that make you feel about the [00:00:40] planet? Would you care for her differently? As strange as this may sound, it's at the heart of one of the European space agencies most ambitious [00:00:50] initiatives to give our planet an interface we can finally understand.

[00:00:55] Markus: Welcome to Earth Observation and into the mind boggling [00:01:00] project of building a digital twin of our world. Think of it, a living virtual earth. Inside a supercomputer fed [00:01:10] a 24 7 data stream from a fleet of satellites measuring everything from the temperature of the seas to the health of our forests. [00:01:20] But this digital twin isn't just for watching.

[00:01:23] Markus: It's a sandbox for our future, a place where policymakers can test new green [00:01:30] initiatives and simulate massive projects. It's a way to ask the earth if we do this. What happens next and see the [00:01:40] consequences before the first stone is ever laid. Today, my friends, I sit down with the woman leading this monumental effort, [00:01:50] Ali, director of Earth Observation Programs at the European Space Agency.

[00:01:56] Markus: We'll explore how this digital twin isn't just a scientific [00:02:00] marvel, but a new way for humanity to finally get an answer when we ask our planet. Hey, is it okay if we do [00:02:10] this to you? So before we get started, please always remember if you want to share something, if you want to get in touch, [00:02:20] please write into us at podcast at Space Watch Global.

[00:02:25] Markus: Now. Without further ado, let's welcome Simon Keli [00:02:30] to the Space Cafe Podcast. Let's go.

[00:02:33] Markus: If you had to sell Earth observation to a high school [00:02:40] student in one sentence, what would you say? What would it be?

[00:02:45] Simonetta Cheli: It is a tool to better live on our planet, so we built satellites. [00:02:50] We distribute the data from those satellites to have better air quality, uh, to understand better what we do in terms of, uh, [00:03:00] deforestation. Also the cities in which we live, how to build them with green areas, how to go and put the right cream and SunShot when you go on, [00:03:10] uh, a beach.

[00:03:11] Simonetta Cheli: And what do you need as protection? how to best sail or go to the mountains, making sure there is still snow in this context of evolution of [00:03:20] ice and ice melting and, uh, climate change. So we are really facing challenges which face all of us citizen on the earth. Youngsters and less [00:03:30] youngsters and those challenges, we can meet support and we can also organize how to better act with the satellites that we are building. And we build those satellites since 50 [00:03:40] years. So we have an expertise, we have, uh, good data available and we have quite a good understanding of how the earth looks like now. [00:03:50] We see the melting of the ice. We see the ice, um, melting, but not only we see the sea level trends. With ocean increasing, increasing their [00:04:00] heights, uh, we see the forestation.

[00:04:02] Simonetta Cheli: But today you don't just need to know how the earth looks like. You need really to know how the earth would look like if we [00:04:10] don't act, if we don't take a very strong action

[00:04:13] Markus: Hmm.

[00:04:13] Simonetta Cheli: terms of preserving what we have on the planet 

[00:04:15] Markus: This is truly, truly fascinating it's like when you look [00:04:20] yourself into the mirror in the morning you look at yourself. And you immediately get a feedback if you're sick, if you're healthy, if something [00:04:30] needs attention.

[00:04:30] Markus: And this is, if you use that analogy, this is something that the European Space Agency with the Twin Earth Project is [00:04:40] trying to achieve for an entire planet. So we're looking the planet into the mirror is, is this an analogy that could work?

[00:04:47] Simonetta Cheli: It's an analogy because today [00:04:50] what we know is the state of the art, the health of our planet. So we know that there was, uh, nine gigatons of ice lost between the sixties and 2020. We [00:05:00] know that there is an. Sea level trend, which is passing from 3.5 millimeter per year to 4.8, which is not all even around the earth, but [00:05:10] it's an average of, uh, sea level rise.

[00:05:12] Simonetta Cheli: These are things we know, but, uh, what we are trying to do now, we are trying to use the data that we have in terms of how [00:05:20] evolutionary models, what happens if there is one degree, uh, temperature increase, how much ice would melt more. How would we [00:05:30] live on a city if we reduce our car use, or, you know, today we have 500,000 people dying every year for air [00:05:40] quality.

[00:05:40] Simonetta Cheli: In Europe. We have 7 million people in the world dying due to bad air quality. The satellites we have, the satellites we operate, the satellites that we [00:05:50] are building for the future generation. Are really essential to give all this factual information go beyond the dimension of national borders. Give us [00:06:00] elements that give us a view of how it's been evolving, but also how it will evolve.

[00:06:05] Simonetta Cheli: And I think no matter if you look also at food security, we [00:06:10] need to feed 9 billion people on the earth. We need to know how much you can produce in terms of crop production. We have products that we are building today called [00:06:20] World Cereal, which are also used on the market, on the stock exchange to understand how much food will be produced, and this is essential information for all of us. We also [00:06:30] use those data sets, for example, at the start of the Ukrainian War. We had data sets on Ukraine and because we've been working on crop and yield estimates in Ukraine [00:06:40] before the war, and it was not accessible Ukraine at the start of the war, and we could have estimates of how much would be the crop production estimate for the [00:06:50] next six months, and those data we gave to. Uh, organization like OECD or really to have a common understanding of what would be the loss and the, what you would be [00:07:00] missing in that context of, uh, production, which is essential for everybody in that context. Same thing you can do on, um, water resources [00:07:10] basin, for example. We've been looking at the AR lake for decades and you know how much this has been shrinking.

[00:07:16] Simonetta Cheli: We've been looking at the

[00:07:17] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:18] Simonetta Cheli: of deserts and. [00:07:20] These data sets, they need to be locked at long period of time. So you need satellite that have consistent information with instruments on board that are either [00:07:30] lasting long period of time, or they're repeat Basically, it's guaranteed. So you have series of satellites thanking Copernicus where you launch one. [00:07:40] It leaves seven, 10 years, and then you have another one that will give you the same information. you talk climate change, when you talk these topics, which are relevant for all of us, you need to [00:07:50] have data sets of about 20, 30 years minimum to have estimates of, of what's happening and what's, uh, what's really the situation that we are living.

[00:07:59] Markus: [00:08:00] So what's the data set we already have? Because the Copernicus fleet, they go back quite a bit already. So what time span do we already [00:08:10] have and what is optimal for ideal predictions into the future?

[00:08:15] Simonetta Cheli: the optimal for those expert scientists who work on climate [00:08:20] variables, which are those indicators giving us the. Uh, relevant information about the climate evolution, no matter if it's on air quality, sea level rise, [00:08:30] deforestation, uh, they all use data sets of about 30 years. In isa, we started to launch the

[00:08:37] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:38] Simonetta Cheli: in 90, [00:08:40] basically the meteorological satellites at the end of the seventies.

[00:08:42] Simonetta Cheli: But, uh, the first, uh, earth observation satellite visa was, was launched in early nineties. So what we have today is [00:08:50] already from our European satellites, a very good wealth of data available, but not only we have agreements with partner agencies of the world, with the Indians, the [00:09:00] American, the Argentinians, the Japanese that have also their missions.

[00:09:04] Simonetta Cheli: And we have those in our archives that Isa uh, through arrangements that we have. So we have a [00:09:10] very. I would say wealthy, um, dataset provision to support everything that needs to be measured, but also evolutionary process. And then we have the Cocos [00:09:20] family. Of course. We launched the first Copernicus satellite tape was called Sentinel one A, with a rather onboarding in 2014. We now have launched the one C. Last [00:09:30] December we will launch the 1D, so the fourth of that series of satellite. Very relevant ones. In, uh, in October this year. So we have already in [00:09:40] that family of satellites a lot of, uh, different missions with different instruments on board. Uh, 1D has, uh, rather but, uh, two [00:09:50] has optical instruments on board, or we have Sentinel five P, which is a precursor to Sentinel five that we will launch now in August with met up second generation.

[00:09:59] Simonetta Cheli: [00:10:00] That gives us. Uh, quality of the atmosphere. So really quality of the air that we breathe every day. Those informations are available. They're available for [00:10:10] everybody, for scientists, for citizens, but also for young startup companies that want to make business out of that. And that's really important because. You can do a [00:10:20] lot using those data sets in terms of, uh, organizing products and services in many domains, no matter if it's energy, transport, environment, [00:10:30] climate, agriculture. So the value of this data is, goes really well beyond also the, the value that it has for preserving better [00:10:40] earth.

[00:10:40] Markus: There is, um, lots of companies, um, currently pressed to talk about carbon offsets and sustainability [00:10:50] measures. So would that mean that once. The Earth observation, the twin Earth, I, by the way, it's called [00:11:00] Destiny, right? Is is that right? That's, that's the, the project's name, because I missed to label it properly.

[00:11:05] Markus: So Destiny is, the,

[00:11:07] Simonetta Cheli: uh,

[00:11:08] Simonetta Cheli: we are running.

[00:11:09] Simonetta Cheli: [00:11:10] One is Destiny, which is a project that is under the leadership of the European Commission in the context of the digital agenda. And this project is

[00:11:19] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:19] Simonetta Cheli: [00:11:20] Uh, on behalf of the commission between Iza, jointly with Yu Mets, the European Meteorological Agency and E-C-M-W-F, the European Center for Medium Weather Forecast. And that is one [00:11:30] aspect, uh, of the project, which is really enhancing the use of digital technology, artificial intelligence, machine learning. So Valorizing, the wealth of the data we have. And [00:11:40] then there is the ISA component, which is a complimentary project, which is focusing as ISA does more on the elements, the demonstration elements.

[00:11:49] Simonetta Cheli: Those two projects [00:11:50] are fully complementary. We work in full synergy and we actually manage isa, both part of Destiny and our digital twin of the earth. How do we do that? We do it, [00:12:00] uh, through the selection of a number of topics. We have made for digital twin of the Earth call. We got over 80 proposals [00:12:10] in terms of topics to be covered through that call, and we're now working on eight topics.

[00:12:16] Simonetta Cheli: We also worked on an initial demonstration project where we [00:12:20] basically did two things. We looked at the evolution, the digital twin of the Antarctic, uh, region. And we all looked at the digital twin of the Mediterranean. So [00:12:30] we had two demonstration projects where we could integrate data into evolutionary model, uh, of those two regions.

[00:12:37] Simonetta Cheli: And now with the commission, we are working [00:12:40] on extreme weather events and we are working on climate, uh, uh, extreme, uh, situations. And those are just the initial activities. We are working also [00:12:50] on digital twin of the oceans, which is something that is also very interesting to look at. And you can do digital twins on many, uh, different fields.

[00:12:58] Simonetta Cheli: You can have a digital twin at the [00:13:00] end of a city. You can better manage a city if you know how it will look like if you intervene.

[00:13:06] Markus: To connect to what I was gonna say earlier, [00:13:10] um, in an ideal world, once the Twin Earth Project is up and running at its optimal stage. A company [00:13:20] could say in real time what their carbon emissions do to the region the company is in [00:13:30] or even further to the continent or to the planet in how far carbon emissions or any kind of emission affect the environment is.

[00:13:39] Markus: Is that right or [00:13:40] is that too overly ambitious?

[00:13:43] Simonetta Cheli: ahead. That's what we will try to do for sure in the future. For the moment, what we are doing, we are doing a number of, [00:13:50] uh, dedicated action on carbon and carbon emission. For example, we are building dedicated specific satellite code, CO2, in the context of [00:14:00] Copernicus, which were conceived. To to the implementation of the agreements of climate, the cop of Cop 21 of Paris because in, in [00:14:10] Paris, in the agreement there is the plan and the ambition to do every five years, what is called global stock take. And this global stock take that was already made in 2023 the [00:14:20] first time, next time is going to be in 2028, is telling us how much anthropogenic emissions are impacting in terms of CO2 emissions on.

[00:14:29] Simonetta Cheli: [00:14:30] Our daily lives. So we defined technology solution to monitor the implementation of those international environmental agreement on climate, and we are building those satellites and they will be [00:14:40] launched shortly and they will contribute to the stock take. thing we are doing, we just launched a satellite called the Biomes.

[00:14:47] Simonetta Cheli: We launched that satellite. It's a [00:14:50] science satellite on the 29th of April. It's already operational, but it will be fully operational with data distributed to everybody. Uh, early next year, so [00:15:00] after six months commission, which is quite a standard practice when you launch a new satellite to check the functionality of the instruments and everything.

[00:15:06] Simonetta Cheli: So this satellite is fabulous also for CO2 because [00:15:10] it's a satellite that, uh, looks at the capacity of tropical forest to absorb CO2. today we, until today, we only knew [00:15:20] how much total, uh, was absorbed by tropical forest. We didn't really understand. Stand

[00:15:25] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:26] Simonetta Cheli: of how in a tropical forest leaf actually [00:15:30] absorbs 1% of CO2, that trunk about 75% of CO2 and the roots, the rest of it.

[00:15:37] Simonetta Cheli: And now we have with this new satellite, [00:15:40] a capacity to scan to have a sort of a free division of tropical forest, which actually play a very key. Primary role in terms of CO2 [00:15:50] absorption and in terms of CO2 fluxes overall and regulation of CO2 in the earth. we are organized, um, a ground truth [00:16:00] validation, which is very important because satellites are important to understand how it looks like, but you need to make sure that what you measure is actually corresponding to what is on the earth. [00:16:10] And in the case of biomass, for example, we've made a hundred agreements with a hundred. Uh, ground, uh, places in the world, two in French Guiana, [00:16:20] one in Australia and in all over the world in tropical forest area, including in, in, Latin America, but also Africa, so that we have [00:16:30] people on the ground and really experts. Validating and verifying that the measurements that we take on those CO2 measurements, uh, ab absorbent capacity from the biomes, [00:16:40] uh, measured, are really corresponding to what's happening on the ground. And, uh, this is a fascinating work that it's going to be also done and organized freeze on [00:16:50] CO2 emission and carbon fluxes.

[00:16:52] Simonetta Cheli: So there's a lot of work, a lot of work which is done on this topic and on many other topics. And of course. All of this is [00:17:00] meant not just to be, science is meant to be operationally used by the key users that need to have the information. And you mentioned the companies, but of course the green [00:17:10] deal in Europe has targets, very clear targets of CO2 reduction overall, and it includes the responsibility for everybody, including companies to do that.

[00:17:19] Simonetta Cheli: So the [00:17:20] more you can measure that overall, the better it is. I think.

[00:17:24] Markus: This is truly true, truly inspiring. And how far does this project have a [00:17:30] potential to give the. Europe to give your European Union a standalone position in the international [00:17:40] space, engagements and endeavors. So earth observation could be the European USB in a global [00:17:50] context of space, engagements.

[00:17:52] Markus: I see, uh, or understand Europe is not the only one trying to build that [00:18:00] digital twin of Earth, but where do you see Europe in all of this? Are we, are we still leading, leading that race?

[00:18:07] Simonetta Cheli: I think we're not just leading that [00:18:10] race, we are in a primary leading position in this worldwide context, and we are even more in this geopolitical context evolving where there is strong [00:18:20] disengagement by some partners, which were traditional partners like the US on topics like climate, on topics like sustainability, food security. you name it. And I [00:18:30] think not only, we were already in a leading position because of the number of missions we had up. I'm running today is the European Space Agencies managing 16 [00:18:40] observation missions. We are building 40 for zero satellites and we're preparing about 80 missions. So already Europe. Is a reference [00:18:50] actor with isa, with umat, with the European Commission and also the National missions. Uh, and we are looked not just as a reference model, we are looked as a [00:19:00] primary actor in terms of number of missions, number of data available, 300 terabytes of cocus data available every day. So we are being looked as.[00:19:10]

[00:19:10] Simonetta Cheli: Certainly a model in the context of the wider geopolitical, uh, arena. Uh, also for numbers and for availability of [00:19:20] data. And we have the biggest wealth of data available to support challenges like climate challenges, environmental challenges, resilience challenges, sustainability ones. And I think also [00:19:30] there is a very strong teaming app, which you can see between. like isa, work technology organization, research organization, industry [00:19:40] supporting organization, and policy makers. We work very closely with Dig Klima at the European commission level, they're preparing legislation, but you cannot [00:19:50] implement the legislations if you don't have the tool to check that what you put in a legislation is

[00:19:55] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:56] Simonetta Cheli: Right. So I think Europe is also very strong.

[00:19:59] Markus: So [00:20:00] you could send box.

[00:20:01] Simonetta Cheli: Yeah. Very strong on that. So we, we are a key actor also in the support of the implementation of European legislation, but [00:20:10] international convention, we, in isa, we work not just to support climate change, uh, in the context of cop, we work to support all the environmental legislation [00:20:20] and conventions, the by diversity convention, the Ram Circumvention, the one on the certification.

[00:20:26] Simonetta Cheli: So there's a real strong collective effort of [00:20:30] Europe and a leading role of Europe in this, uh, wider context with leading tools and capabilities that we need to sustain, but we need to preserve, I would [00:20:40] say.

[00:20:40] Markus: What is happening right now by. adding evermore satellites and data points to earth observation, what we're doing [00:20:50] as, as humans, as a technological society. We're digitizing, natural, events So we're translating it into machine [00:21:00] language. So in, in a next step, it would only be natural to connect all this to artificial intelligence and ask artificial intelligence, [00:21:10] Hey, chat, GPT or whatever, or whatever you work with. Um, we want a cleaner earth. What do we have to do? Is, is this a long-term [00:21:20] vision or is this something you wouldn't rather not touch for all the downsides?

[00:21:25] Markus: It, it could entail.

[00:21:26] Simonetta Cheli: No, I think it's, uh, not even a long term vision. It's [00:21:30] quite a short term ambition of the programs we put on the table of our member states, for example, on the domain of, uh, resilience. There was the events in Poland with [00:21:40] the flooding. Recently, there were the events in Valencia with the flooding recently in Na, Romania, in Italy.

[00:21:45] Simonetta Cheli: So this is happening more and more. What can you do? You can use [00:21:50] Destination Earth to provide policymaker to look at scenarios in a virtual environment, to look at improving the accuracy and the effectiveness of [00:22:00] strategies for climate adaptation, but also for risk mitigation, for disaster risk reduction. Just to make you the Valencia example, Valencia happened because there was an extreme [00:22:10] weather event. A meteorology, uh, had, uh, forecasted that, but all the elements had not been aggregated in the sense that, uh, we have looked [00:22:20] afterwards at the humidity of the terrain and the terrain, what the soil moisture of the terrain around Valencia was already. with water. The hydrology of the [00:22:30] terrain was already to the limit when it rained extremely hard and the situation got absolutely, you know, terrific. As as we know now, the type of [00:22:40] things that we're trying to do is to integrate the data sources we have, which was probably on the previous situation of the terrain combining with the meteorological forecast, combining with [00:22:50] what could have happened in terms of disaster revolution on that area. And in those ways you can. Mitigate disaster reduction. You can also simulate [00:23:00] droughts, which can have an impact on famine, uh, famine in the world. Those are the type of things that I think are not farfetched from what we are doing and what we are really trying [00:23:10] to improve in our daily work with, uh, with space data, with, uh, wood or what we do.

[00:23:14] Markus: So it's interesting, you could, for example, are now talking about AI again. Um, [00:23:20] AI requires lots of energy. We know, so maybe some. Time down the road, Europe needs to decide, do we want more nuclear power plants to power AI [00:23:30] data centers?

[00:23:31] Markus: Or should we rather go for, for coal or renewables? And so then you could now sandbox all the different [00:23:40] options I just mentioned and talk about outcomes and make policy suggestions. Is, is that right?

[00:23:46] Simonetta Cheli: Yes, it's exactly right. And

[00:23:48] Markus: I.

[00:23:48] Simonetta Cheli: the way, we just recently [00:23:50] opened a high computing, uh, facility capability in one of these sites I am near Rome. We have looked at the energy consumption in a very thorough way. We [00:24:00] have made deal with energy. Providers, we have looked at user solar energy, uh, you know, uh, sources.

[00:24:08] Simonetta Cheli: We have looked at also, [00:24:10] uh, optional ways to reduce the, the energy consumption for that facility. So it's something which is really coming up into our daily work. We're at isa. We're not just [00:24:20] looking at preserving the planet, we are also looking at how to. Really be sustainable. In our daily work, we look at, uh, sustainable sites where we work.

[00:24:29] Simonetta Cheli: We look at, [00:24:30] uh, greening the places where we work, and this is part of our daily agenda, which has to be a, an agenda of, of reference, I think for, for everybody in Europe and the world. [00:24:40] But AI certainly has various dimensions. One is the one you mentioned. The other one is the advantage of being able to use fast and access [00:24:50] and exploit fast, big volumes of data.

[00:24:53] Simonetta Cheli: And this is really something very valuable in the domain of observation, in the domain of space in general. But you have [00:25:00] maybe also some counter elements. Uh, for example, we are looking seriously these days of how to give the guarantee that what is being elaborated with the [00:25:10] AI correspond to truth. In the case of satellite, uh, data sets that it's not just invented by the ai, but the products that you have, it's really [00:25:20] corresponding to what you need to see.

[00:25:21] Simonetta Cheli: If you have a map of an airport, if you have a map of, of a city, if you want to buy a house in an area, it's something that, so we are looking also [00:25:30] giving a rubber stamping mechanism of demonstration of how you can. Uh, give a, a quality stamping sourcing associated to AI and the use of EO data. These [00:25:40] are examples of how we are declining, or we are looking at AI onboard some satellites.

[00:25:45] Simonetta Cheli: So we launched last year a satellite called Fiat two, and this [00:25:50] satellite called FISA two has an ai, uh, on board. And the AI on board allows to actually. the cloud areas from the ones which [00:26:00] don't have cloud even before you download and you dump the data to the ground so it really pre-select those data and those images that you can [00:26:10] use and those that you cannot use because they're covered by clouds you don't even take and bother to, to download to the earth.

[00:26:18] Markus: How far, are we [00:26:20] from, real time global? What if simulations? So I guess it's not real time yet, but how far, so what's the time Delta still [00:26:30] at the moment?

[00:26:30] Simonetta Cheli: But in some areas, as I tell you, we worked a lot on Antarctica. On Mediterranean, you have basically real time, uh, evolutionary schemes and models. Today. You see [00:26:40] that

[00:26:40] Markus: Wow.

[00:26:41] Simonetta Cheli: Mediterranean, you have the highest, uh, temperatures ever measured in the last few months. And not only we have the highest ME temperature [00:26:50] measures in in the Mediterranean in the last few months, which are factual, you know, uh, things.

[00:26:55] Simonetta Cheli: But you have, uh. the potential evolutionary, uh, information [00:27:00] that is being elaborated by our scientists and by our experts on that.

[00:27:04] Markus: Hmm. What is the most surprising result [00:27:10] from Earth Observation that has, that you have seen, that you surprised you were surprised by the most?

[00:27:18] Simonetta Cheli: Well, there's so many, [00:27:20] which are not just surprising. I think they're fantastic, and I've been looking at images from this very complex mission called Earth Care, which we launched last year, took 18 [00:27:30] years to develop everybody. Was like really anxious to get the data. And the data are about, uh, what is the filtering role?

[00:27:37] Simonetta Cheli: I'm oversimplifying of the clouds and error [00:27:40] results, uh, from the sun radiation effect, and, uh, the images from the four instruments onboard this mission, which are combined in terms of results. [00:27:50] So you combine. Scientific results of, of the four instruments on board, just give us, uh, the capacity of filtering that the clouds have, which today, in this context [00:28:00] of increased temperature, it becomes essential. So they're not just surprising, they're fabulous, I think. And, uh, these are really relevant or. Uh,

[00:28:08] Markus: Hmm.

[00:28:09] Simonetta Cheli: other [00:28:10] things, which you can see is sometimes what you don't really see with your eye, and with these satellites, you often see things. I think of a satellite called Sentinel Two. It has an [00:28:20] optical instrument, like a camera on board, but this optical instrument has 13 spectral bands. So you really see the, uh, coverage of a forest or [00:28:30] agriculture fields or crops completely in different colors, and you see forest in red and you wouldn't expect forest in red. So these are [00:28:40] surprising thing to someone who gets close to the domain. But then you also see fabulous thing, like when you look at the, uh, evolution of the Poe Valley and the [00:28:50] drought that it had a couple of years ago. You really see the shrinking of some rivers, and that was extremely surprising to me. So seeing from one year to the other [00:29:00] how the poor river was shrinking, how some islands were created in the river because of the known water capability of the of the [00:29:10] zone. And this is incredible. Or. You have so many example.

[00:29:14] Simonetta Cheli: I mean, surprising. There's a lot of surprising things. For me, it was very impactful [00:29:20] after 30 years in this domain to go to Greenland two years ago with one of the experts that works with us who's a Danish

[00:29:27] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:28] Simonetta Cheli: He's my

[00:29:28] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:29] Simonetta Cheli: for [00:29:30] the science committee and this guy has been working in the region for really the last 30 years.

[00:29:34] Simonetta Cheli: So he's really expert and he said, I have to go to do some measures and, uh, let's go together. [00:29:40] And we went, we opened the, the Arctic conference there, but we went to, to see Greenland. We went to see the fastest moving laier in the world, which is, I[00:29:50]

[00:29:50] Markus: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:29:51] Simonetta Cheli: And what was really amazing

[00:29:53] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:54] Simonetta Cheli: monitor and I had seen images of that glacier. For the last 30 years, and I saw the [00:30:00] shrinking, the, the, the going backwards, the, the reduction of the ice, what is called the, the, the kelp. [00:30:10] So that the, basically the belt where, where it ended and where it was shrinking, but to go there have the corresponding images that you've been seeing to [00:30:20] the noise and the speed. Uh, of the ice melting. So the, the noise of these ice collapsing and the speed at [00:30:30] which this was happening was, you know, we had studied this, we knew about it. It wasn't something new. But what was really new was the strong dimension [00:30:40] associated to that. When you actually experience it very closely and you realize. much more

[00:30:45] Markus: Hmm.

[00:30:46] Simonetta Cheli: important it is and what's happening. It's really dramatic and you need to [00:30:50] have tools and means and also actions on that. So that was something which was striking. In spite, I had always seen the, the images of that region and the images of [00:31:00] that, uh, place here. It was impressive to, to leave.

[00:31:05] Markus: How much more detail do we need as humans to start to [00:31:10] act? Because it seems like whatever is happening right now on Earth in terms of extreme temperature or weather [00:31:20] events, like right now, um, 50 degrees Celsius. Um. temperatures in Italy, then all the wildfires and whatnot. I just got back from, [00:31:30] a holiday, above the polar circle in northern Sweden, and it was next to 30 degrees Celsius for an entire week, which was [00:31:40] nice.

[00:31:40] Markus: But still unexpected so my question to you, , we have heard for decades exactly what we're experiencing right now from [00:31:50] scientists, so we should not be surprised as, as a society. And my question to you, how much more detail do we.

[00:31:57] Simonetta Cheli: We don't need much more detail. I think we [00:32:00] need the continuous use of the facto data we have to make everybody convinced of the seriousness of the matter. We also need this data [00:32:10] to have citizens understand that the efforts they make or they will make are ma are paying, uh, back. So if you really don't use the car [00:32:20] or you, if you can see the NO two reduction in a city during COVID, that was the case.

[00:32:25] Simonetta Cheli: So I think you need factual data. You need to raise the awareness. You [00:32:30] need to have policies that can be measurable and you need to have also information tools like the one we provide to make sure that citizens who make the effort and [00:32:40] everybody who makes the effort can see the, the progress on things.

[00:32:43] Simonetta Cheli: And today, this is really not happening because not everybody's convinced first of all, of, uh, of climate change. [00:32:50] Even if you live it. And it's a fact of life. I mean, uh. Um, it's something not everybody's convinced that they should take an action on it. I think, uh, we need to [00:33:00] use that best. What we have, they, you don't, you don't need more information.

[00:33:04] Simonetta Cheli: You just, uh, need to show the information we have and continuously get it to show the [00:33:10] trends.

[00:33:10] Markus: I did not expect that to happen, but the more we talk about earth observation, the more I'm falling in love with earth observation. What? It's truly, [00:33:20] truly interesting because I feel like the potential all this, uh, entails, like for example, if I have that twin Earth. [00:33:30] Project an idea and that real time feedback I can attach to anything I do as a citizen, I do as a society to [00:33:40] an immediate feedback or an extrapolation into the future from the planet.

[00:33:46] Markus: So for example, if I want to build a house, I [00:33:50] get. Feedback from that project as to how much this will affect the planet or my region, just my house. [00:34:00] Then for example, if city planners want to extend the city in this and that direction, you get immediate feedback from interpolation into the [00:34:10] future. What this.

[00:34:11] Markus: It does to the region or what it doesn't do. So you can even attach price tags or policy insights to all of [00:34:20] this. So this is giving the earth a literal third dimension or multiple new dimensions. Um, when it comes to decision making, [00:34:30] this is really, really interesting. Sorry if I'm just realizing what your everyday work is right now, so I'm just realizing as we speak.

[00:34:39] Simonetta Cheli: [00:34:40] is to

[00:34:40] Markus: Okay.

[00:34:41] Simonetta Cheli: make sure they work, make sure the data, getting to the users, make sure that people realize, and so we demonstrate the relevance of the use of those data in [00:34:50] different domain. One day we work with the, uh, petrol company to show that they can monitor the leaks of methane from pipelines one other day.

[00:34:58] Simonetta Cheli: We work to demonstrate that [00:35:00] when you build the roll a railway, you can use interferometric data to make sure you don't go on an area which is shaking another day. We use those data to make sure [00:35:10] that, uh, we monitor the green areas in cities. Another day you. sure you give the data to the fisherman that knows the temperature of the sea before he goes out.

[00:35:19] Simonetta Cheli: So the [00:35:20] variety of domain, it's enormous and I'm convinced that more and more the variety of the use of these data, uh, and the recognition of the relevance, because it's [00:35:30] not space and space, I mean, it's really what you can do with it in terms of benefiting sectorial, uh, areas, thematic areas, insurance, you know, we [00:35:40] work with them. Uh, an Austrian insurance company since years and we've worked to demonstrate with them, uh, how they can, uh, reimburse the farmers in [00:35:50] 48 hours, which is their actually pride all over the central European eastern region when there is a hail. And this was a demo product that we did together and we defined it [00:36:00] together because we didn't know really what they needed as an insurance company.

[00:36:03] Simonetta Cheli: We knew what we could take and contribute with the data center. This is the beauty of the work that we are doing to try really [00:36:10] and make. Relevant, the use of what we built and exploit the data that, uh, are available. And it's fascinating because every, every [00:36:20] day you can go into new domain, not just the traditional ones.

[00:36:24] Simonetta Cheli: Today we see more and more banks that are using. Uh, this data to assess [00:36:30] if there is a risk or even a, um, uh, agencies that sell houses if there is an area which is risk to be flooded or risk to be in an [00:36:40] earthquake. So this is becoming daily part of what we, we do, and this is also in our mandate to promote the validation, the [00:36:50] demonstration of the variables of these technologies on this data.

[00:36:55] Markus: This is nothing new, to you of course, but there is, I think it dates back to the sixties [00:37:00] or seventies, the, the Gaia idea that the earth, is a living entity in itself. so whatever you may [00:37:10] think about something like this, We are getting somewhat closer to getting an image of a living [00:37:20] entity, of a living planet through those data points.

[00:37:24] Markus: So I think this is an, an interesting and, and, and very valuable, uh, [00:37:30] image to get because then the earth is not just a rock. floating in space. It's something that changes, it's something that's alive [00:37:40] and it's something that reacts to what we do as a species on this planet. So I think if done right, and this is [00:37:50] where educational institutions and and smart ways of storytelling come in, if this is done right, this could be a wide [00:38:00] ranging.

[00:38:00] Markus: A Copernican moment for humanity if we understand that this place we live on [00:38:10] and we live in is not a rock. It's a place that is alive and that suffers and reacts to how we treat it.

[00:38:19] Simonetta Cheli: Yeah, [00:38:20] we do continuous education actions, competitions. We also try to integrate. What is called earth observation in the curriculum of the [00:38:30] schools, making arrangements with ministries in the various ZA member states so that, uh, from school kids up to higher, higher school kids, [00:38:40] people realize the relevance.

[00:38:41] Simonetta Cheli: They also get, uh, used to understand, but they also get motivated to study these domains. And I'm, we are really encouraging. Uh, [00:38:50] studies of stem, we do this in many ways. We have a super nice website. We have education tools. We do competitions, and this is really part of [00:39:00] what's our daily job and mandate beyond the technical, scientific one that we have.

[00:39:04] Simonetta Cheli: And I think it's really part

[00:39:06] Markus: Hmm.

[00:39:07] Simonetta Cheli: DNA of visa. Encourage, you [00:39:10] know, studies in science, but also encourage the, the young generation to really understand what's all about. And, uh, that's part of what we [00:39:20] daily do. I mean, in, in our job, it's not the core, but it's an essential part of what we do in our job.

[00:39:25] Simonetta Cheli: Like I've opened the center. To general public since two years. It's quite [00:39:30] a big effort because you have security constraints and everything, but it wasn't just enough to have only the scientists and the industrialists and the decision maker coming. We need to get the [00:39:40] students, we need to open to the public, let them understand what we are doing. And so that's part of the daily job, what we try to do in the agency.

[00:39:48] Markus: So, um, [00:39:50] if people who are listening right now want to learn more about Earth observation and what you do in, in Rosti in Italy, what should they do? Where can [00:40:00] they go if they're not in the vicinity? If they cannot travel to Rosti, how can they immerse themselves and, and get more information about Earth Observation?

[00:40:08] Simonetta Cheli: we have Earth [00:40:10] Observation at is a manager on four sites. So the headquarters is, as you're saying, fti with teams working on the data, the application, the distribution of the data. But those [00:40:20] building the satellites are in Holland, in the Netherlands, in Aztec, in one other facility of Visa. Those working

[00:40:26] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:26] Simonetta Cheli: variables are in the uk. Near Harwell at [00:40:30] this Harwell place and then also in Paris in headquarters. So the best way is either to benefit if you are near the site to our open days, which we organize on all [00:40:40] these sites. They're advertise on our webpage or go at the occasion of researchers night.

[00:40:46] Simonetta Cheli: Like for example, we'll have a researchers night opening the site to the [00:40:50] public here in Presca end of September. If you cannot do any of that. The best way to get closer is to look at our website. We have a lot of information, which [00:41:00] is for general public, which is also for scientists, for those who want to dig into the domain. Who want to understand the science results of our mission. It's also for users, for [00:41:10] those who want to understand better how they could use this data, who is actually improving the, the forecast, uh, about their quality in London or who is doing what [00:41:20] on another area. And I think you can get a lot of information through our website at ISA and I would suggest an advice to do that.

[00:41:29] Simonetta Cheli: And [00:41:30] of course, we have a lot of the centers which also have visitors area or. Science, uh, agreements with science museum in the Netherland. We have a [00:41:40] space expo, which is just outside our facility. Everybody can visit or we have a lot of what we do is displayed at the European Parliament in Brussels or the European [00:41:50] Parliament Visitor Center in Rome there, or we have in Prague a new facility in the museum there. We have also recently opened a demo of what we do [00:42:00] at the museum in Vienna. And, uh, so there are many other ways, but I, I would suggest to start from the ISA website and the ISA Center's connection to [00:42:10] get closer to what we do.

[00:42:12] Markus: If I had a, a brilliant idea around Earth observation data and I wanted to build a [00:42:20] startup around it, could I? Play with the data. Could I tap into the data? Is there an API

[00:42:27] Simonetta Cheli: Okay.

[00:42:28] Markus: what ISA is [00:42:30] observing?

[00:42:30] Simonetta Cheli: what we call the fill lab, which is an innovation, uh, facility, which is in, uh, Frasca. It's actually copied, inspired from the model of the Silicon [00:42:40] Valley or having expertise in this domain, coupled with, uh, access to venture capital, coupled with the speed, the contractual fast, uh, [00:42:50] activities where we host also people who want to come and stay maybe three months or six months.

[00:42:55] Simonetta Cheli: To better how they can use your data for maybe their model of [00:43:00] commercialization or activity afterwards. And that's really, I would say, the core place where we organize that work of support to commercialization in earth observation we [00:43:10] have there the expertise. We also have calls, we had recently a call on innovation using earth observation data.

[00:43:16] Simonetta Cheli: So there are codes that you can see also on the web. [00:43:20] Related to that, but certainly getting closer to what we call the fila. But RI is the best way to do it, and we have initiated a lot of support to new startups. I [00:43:30] think of companies like Aurora Tech in Germany who are building satellite constellation. To do file monitoring and, you know, many, many new value [00:43:40] added, uh, companies in sectors like methane monitoring. We have one in France working with us, Kairos. We have so many that have gotten closer and [00:43:50] gotten the support in terms of expertise, in terms of advice, in terms of uh, starting up their business and looking at business model.

[00:43:58] Simonetta Cheli: Also teaming up with other [00:44:00] European companies and that we do for the field lab.

[00:44:04] Ti your office manager told me she needs to be super strict about. [00:44:10] About ending this. So my la my last question to you, if the call came, would you want to travel into space?

[00:44:17] Markus: Would you personally want to go.

[00:44:19] Simonetta Cheli: to [00:44:20] death by planes. I'm obliged to take the plane almost every week. work and for pleasure. Sometimes I'm really afraid of flying and I'm [00:44:30] not the most fit to go, so I'm not the one motivated to go up on the sky on the space station and uh

[00:44:37] Markus: You are, you're not the one motivated, but [00:44:40] let's assume someone is forcing you to go because someone says there is, we're building an earth observation data center on the moon, and we need Simona to take a look at [00:44:50] it. Um, my my, my question,

[00:44:54] Simonetta Cheli: I'm sure I'll

[00:44:56] Markus: my question, my question to you, Simona. Um. [00:45:00] The, the journey to those places is long and boring. Um, what's the one piece of music you would not want to miss on that [00:45:10] journey to keep you entertained?

[00:45:11] Simonetta Cheli: me to the mood.

[00:45:15] Markus: Fantastic. So I'll put it on, on the playlist on Spotify and, and [00:45:20] the very last question . I challenge you now to share an espresso for the mind with me.

[00:45:25] Markus: What could be an inspiring shot of inspiration you would [00:45:30] like to share with me with the audience?

[00:45:44] Markus: Fantastic. Thank you so much, um, Simona, for [00:45:50] taking the time and sharing that truly inspiring work you do.

[00:46:01] Markus: as we wrap up this episode of the Space Cafe Podcast, I invite you to consider how Earth [00:46:10] Observation offers, not just data, but a voice for our planet, a real time reflection of how our actions shape the [00:46:20] world we live in. If this conversation with Simula Kaley sparked new thoughts or shifted your perspective, we'd love to hear from [00:46:30] you. Write us at podcast at Space Watch Global, or take a moment to rate and review the show on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Your [00:46:40] feedback helps us reach more people. It's as simple as that. Who care about the future of our pale blue dot? You can find [00:46:50] all episodes of the Space Cafe Podcast on Spotify, apple Podcast and Space Watch Global.

[00:46:57] Markus: Follow us on LinkedIn. [00:47:00] Follow me on LinkedIn for updates. Until next time, my friends keep looking up and stay connected to the home. We all share. [00:47:10] Bye-bye.

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