The Impact Of Business Coaching with Megan Martin

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This episode features a conversation between doula business coach Kaely Harrod and her coaching client Megan Martin, a birth doula and lactation educator based in the Minneapolis area. As they wrap up their six-month coaching relationship, Megan shares her doula journey—from taking her training in January 2024 to attending 37 births in her first year. They discuss the challenges of pricing, the importance of sustainable pacing, and how Megan learned to prioritize quality prenatal care while balancing family life with two young children. This candid conversation offers valuable insights for new and experienced doulas alike about building a business that truly works for your life.

Meet Megan:

Hi there! I’m Megan (she/her), a birth doula and lactation educator supporting families throughout the Twin Cities in Minnesota. I'm also a mom of two and like a lot of doulas, my own births completely changed the direction of my life and led me into this wonderful world of birth. My work is centered around evidence-based, judgment-free support that helps families feel informed, grounded and connected to their own intuition throughout pregnancy, birth and postpartum. I support a wide range of birth experiences and love having honest conversations about the nuance of birthwork, advocacy and caring for families in ways that feel individualized and sustainable.

https://www.instagram.com/meganmartinbirth/

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https://www.tiktok.com/@doulacoach

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Doula Tips and Tits is produced by Kaely Harrod of Harrod Doula Services

It is sponsored by The Doula Biz Blueprint Self-Paced Class for Doulas Launching Successful and Sustainable Businesses! 

Music by Madirfan: Hidden Place on Pixabay

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Welcome to Doula Tips and Tits, the podcast where we cut through the noise and get real about what it takes to build a sustainable doula business. I'm Kaylee Harad. I've been a doula informally for 14 years and full-time for seven. Around here, we don't sugarcoat stuff. We talk autonomy, owning your worth, creating a business that works for you. No fluff, no burnout, just the honest truth on how to be your own best boss. Let's get into today's episode. Hello and welcome back to Doula Tips and Tits. I am very, very excited because I have my doula coaching client. I'm like, what do I call you? My coache, um, Megan, here with me today. Um, we are we just wrapped up coaching on Monday when this uh episode comes out, um, which is sad because we've been working together for six months, but it's just like a see you soon, not a see you later situation. Um and so, Megan, I would love for you to introduce yourself and tell the listeners where you are located, what kind of doula are you, et cetera. Give us a little rundown of your business.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Yes, I would love to. Um, hi everyone. My name is Megan Martin. I am in um the glorious state of Minnesota um in a suburb near Minneapolis. Um I am I am a birth doula mostly. Um I have done a little bit of postpartum work, um, and also a lactation educator, though I did just take my um certified lactation consultant exam. So I'm waiting to hear back in. Yes, I know I'm so excited. Um, but for now, for now, a lactation educator, I'm supposed to say. Um so that, and then yeah, mainly those three things birth, a little bit of postpartum every now and then, and then trying to lean into um more lactation education lately too.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

I love that. And um you have two kiddos, correct?

SPEAKER_00 2:12

I do. I have a six and a four-year-old, four and a half, because that's very important to her. She's four and a half. That's very important. Yeah. So important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Another doula I was chatting with the other day was like, my kid was like, I'm three and a half, I'm three and a half, I'm three and a half, and then turned four, and the next day was like, I'm four and a half. And she was like, you are not. You are not. You are four in one day. That's not how it goes. Yeah. We don't just jump straight to half. I turned four yesterday.

unknown 2:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Um exactly. Tell us a little bit about right, right? Temperament-wise, yes, that that tracks. Um, when did you start working as a doula? And um how long, like how what's kind of the journey been?

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Yeah. So I took my initial doula training in January of um 2024. So just over two-ish years now, though I will say I I always say I took my doula training in January of 2024, but um had my first um had my first doula client in June. Yeah, June of 20, that same year, 2024. Sorry, the math is not mathing in my head for some reason, even though there's no math involved in that in that. Um, and super exciting. So that my first doula client family who had their baby in June of 2024. They will be my first repeat family in June of 2026. So I'm very excited about that, Miles. I have my first. I know. I was like, oh my gosh, that worked out so well. Um, yes, that's amazing. Yeah, so that, so a little bit about the journey. Um, I so again, I I took that my first that you know three-day doula training workshop, um, and was like, okay, this is definitely what I want to do, but like now what? Now what am I doing? Um I quickly, I like learned about um doula match, quickly got on doula match, had somebody reach out through there um relatively quickly and was like, oh my gosh, now I need a website. So quickly did, quickly did a website. Um and then like a lot of doula's do, um, I started with a really, really low rate for my for my area. Um, I think honestly, just for I mean full transparency, because I think that's important, but I I think I started my first three clients booked me at $500. Um, and then I just kind of quickly, or like after three clients at $500, I um moved up to $750, did a few clients there. Um, and then I think, you know, moved up to a thousand. Um so just kind of bumped up as I as I got more experience um and just attended more births. But looking back, I mean that is definitely one of the things that um I not I don't regret, but when I talk to new doula's, it's definitely something that I call out that I like a don't don't do this thing that I did. Um I I think for me it was a I didn't have the confidence that that I would be, you know, a great doula and that I could charge more than that. So those first few births were really confidence building. But um again, for any new doulas listening, like you're you're a great doula just by being there. Um so you don't you don't need to start at a low rate like that. Um that was kind of a tangent, I think, on my journey. What else would I think?

SPEAKER_01 6:05

No, it's perfect. What else? I actually love I love that tangent because that was one of my favorite things when we first met. Like so Megan um was I first met Megan because she applied for my like free giveaway spot in my coaching. Um, and that she won that. So that was she was my giveaway winner last year. Um, and that's what's happening on Friday is or that's what's happening until Friday. That giveaway is going on right now. Um, but part of what I saw in her right away is she was like, I would attend a birth and then be like, that's not enough money, like raise it again. Like that was actually really hard work. Yeah. Like I'm not willing to be away from my family for 26 hours for just that little bit of money. And so I love that because what it showed me as a coach is like, okay, yeah, you have some stuff that you're like figuring out, but as you go, you're very open to pivoting and changing. And that's a huge piece. Like, it's a lot harder to grow and be sustainable in your business when you have the thought that like how you're currently doing it is the only right way. You know what I mean? So you were kind of like, oh, I could be doing it all wrong. Just tell me and I'll change it.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

And I still say that to you.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Like nothing has changed.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

No.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Yeah. Also, I feel like I don't know that I've ever actually said to you, maybe I've said it in a podcast episode, but in my first private client hired me in January of 2019. And and I had had agency clients before that, and I like my sister and my sister-in-law, you know. Um, but my first private client, I charged them it my rate was $750. And I gave the first three people a 50% discount. So yeah, so I got paid like $375 or something. Yeah, like it was so low. Oh, and it's like laughable now, but even that, I was like, $300, you know, like I was just like, maybe if I say it quietly, it won't feel like a lot of money.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Isn't that isn't that so wild? And then now knowing, like just knowing the work and knowing that how feeble, even if you don't have, I mean, obviously, there's so much benefit in in trainings and knowing just and having the experience of how different birth settings work and different providers work and different um uh you know uh positioning uh training and positionings, but all and even the the evidence is even just says like your presence is worth is worthwhile. And I it is it's so hard as an Odoula to like really, really take that and believe that, but um it's yeah, it's so true.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

Yeah, it's necessary, yeah. So you were not on the bad path. I think the other thing that you that stood out for me when I first met you is that you had attended births really rapidly, but had pretty quickly found out that you were maybe not gonna be able to attend that many births. Can you talk a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Yes, that is such that you're bringing me, you are bringing me back to a little bit of a crazy time. Um I yes, I my first, my very first year. So if I think again, like from the very first private client that I had um to kind of that that the first year after that baby turned one, I attended 37 births. Um, which looking back, I'm like, it was it was such a good experience. And I will say, I think two of those births were with a doula mentor, a local doula mentor who let um let me attend births with her with her, um, which was amazing experience. So, but that that was um 35, 35 of my own families in that first year. Um, and I I know that was that was really crazy. Um, I'm just I'm it's like all coming back to me how um how wild that was and how my my husband was very much like, um I'm I'm happy for you, but like, can you come home sometimes too? What's going on? Um I yes, I quickly learned that that was not the right pace for me. Again, and that was two years ago. So my kids were four and two. Um and just from a from a fam, like being home for my family when I want to be home for my family, it wasn't working, but it also just didn't feel like I was going to be like the the doula that I wanted to be either. Um, something that I talk to families about when I have meet and greet calls now is um, you know, a lot of people like to ask about like how do you advocate as a doula and what's um what how do you do that? And something that I talk about now that's so important to me is is kind of the time that I'm able to spend with families prenatally and like really um I view that and that time and that education as advocacy just as much as it is in the birth space. Obviously, um, you know, a different, different type, but being able to um, you know, make make time for one-off chats with with families when you know they have a question come up about something that their provider said, or um, or just, you know, what are what are my different options now that I'm 41 weeks and two days or um those kinds of things. So like really being able to spend quality time with families and like give them that individualized care that we that we talk about as doulas, that's so important. Um, I I really realize that, you know, with you know, four to five families a month, um that didn't feel that didn't feel possible for me. I know a lot of doulas do that and it it works really well, um, or they're they're able to swing it um and and still provide awesome care. Um, but for me, and with again, you know, having little kids and being in the life stage that I was, um, it yeah, I was very quickly was like, you know, I think I think I'm a two to three, two to three families per month kind of doula.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

Yeah, I love that because I think again, like very relatable to be like, yeah, I was doing it like this, and then was like, I can't keep going like this, right? Like that's super, super common. I also think one of the reasons that I asked Megan to be on as a podcast guest, because I have I've done podcast guesting with a many people I've coached, but not everyone, right? And it's not because the others wouldn't have been great guests, like everybody would be. But part of what I think is unique about you is that you also have had a few different times in our six months together where you're kind of like, I think this is the plan. And then our coaching was actually like that should maybe not be the plan, right? And and again, like the receptiveness to that and the ability to be like, okay, actually, like that's part of why I have you, is to be like, should this be my plan? And if it should be, how do I do it? But also if it shouldn't be, I don't want to pour six months of work into this if it actually isn't going to be what I'm thinking it's going to be. And I think that speaks so much to that like outside guidance piece. So I I'm I'm leading up to a question, which is what did you think you needed coaching support for when we first started together? What was kind of your in your vision of what coaching would be like in that first bit of coaching when we began?

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Yeah. Okay, so this is a little bit, a little bit twofold. So the first thing I think is what um what I thought what I thought I needed and then what I really what I really did need it and where like where it actually matched. I'm gonna say that first because um I it yeah, it brings me back to like the again, the thing that I thought I needed um was help focusing. Like I I think I um I have I I have a lot of I have a lot of ideas, um, but I am somebody who, as I I'm I learn about myself more and more, I am somebody who I don't I love an idea, but then I don't love always like the the process of putting the idea in place, like that, like having a big ball of mess and like unmessing it is not my um not not a just not something I love to I love to do. I'm usually like I'm like once I have once there is a good process, um, then I'm like, okay, yeah, I can I can chug along and get stuff done. Um so I knew I needed help focusing. Um, and I that is like that's definitely the thing that I have loved most about our time together is that um I think we talked about having squirrel energy at one point in time.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

And that is the thing that like I think even six months in, I will still bring some squirrel energy to our calls. And you are like, love it, yes, great. Let's take 57 steps back and work on work on untangling, untangling that a little bit. Like and I said mess earlier, but it's not a mess, right? It's just like a big a big ball of yarn, a big ball of this yarn y idea that just needs to be sorted out. And I am again like that taking the steps back and looking at the smaller things um is something that like having somebody else help you with that is has been so so valuable. Um, I know I'm kind of like, what am I gonna do with all my squirrel energy? Like, what do I do with it now? Um, but is it would it be helpful, Kaylee, that for me to like back up and talk a little bit about what my kind of initial idea it was and or what I came what I came to coaching with and how we've pivoted a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

If that yeah, that's fine. If that's what you're wondering, yeah, yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. I also love like what you're what you're describing is perfect because it is like I think in business, for one, when we lack guidance, which most of us do as doulas, right? We do sort of piece together our own thoughts. And naturally we like either completely defeat ourselves or like amp ourselves up, right? Like we're like, that's an amazing thought. Like, my gosh, you are killing it. What a great idea. And then we do need someone else to either be like, actually, that sounds real complicated. Like, have you considered, you know, maybe we start with this thing that you already have. Um, but also I think we we can just as easily keep ourselves from doing something that we actually are ready to do.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

And and so I do think I I want you to share a little bit about like the group that you were kind of starting to think about, um, only because I think what you actually needed in that was better boundaries and how you show up as a doula, right? But but I want you to dive into it a little. So yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Yeah. So when I when I initially applied for your um your your free coaching spot, um, my initial idea was I really just I was looking, just looking, I mean, I was coming off that 37 birth year um and was like, okay, that just isn't, that's not sustainable. Um, and and my background prior to doula work was working in corporate marketing. So working with just lots of teams to get, I mean, sometimes sometimes too many people to get one thing done, honestly. Um, but very used to just like teamwork, um, having other people to bounce ideas off of. So coming into doula work and being just really a solo business owner trying to figure it out on my own, um, was just a really big, I think, mindset shift. Um, and just tricky, a tricky thing to do for me. Um, and so I think again, and then having having kind of pushed myself a little bit in that first year and attending, um, attending a lot of different births and learning a lot, but kind of already feeling a little bit of that um just that that burnout that is so common with doulas. Um I knew I I knew I really wanted to do, I wanted to work differently in my in my next year. Um, and so one of the ideas that I had had and had been talking to some other other doulas about was is, you know, uh options of working together as doulas, um, working in some sort of either collaborative or collective or just partnership model. Um, and so I was really had that that big idea. And it's still something I think about. I'm not, I haven't, I haven't shelved it completely. Um, I think because I do just I love my doula friends and I would love to work with them more. But I think to your point, what then we we started to talk about and what I realized along the way, I think with more conversations with each with these doula's more conversations with you, Kaylee, just more thought was that it you know, we all we that's I'm just making sounds with my mouth. You're fine. No, you're doing great. Um we really like we all aligned our values, we all love each other very much. Um, but we have different um kind of different needs as doulas. Some of us were wanting, you know, I was wanting to make this more of a full-time job for myself. Other other doulas were just having babies and needed a more low-key schedule. And it just wasn't, we we kind of weren't matched up in that way, even though we, you know, again, we all felt very matched up in other ways. And yeah, I think with more conversations and really looking at different ways of uh setting up my doula packages, it really was a more like I can I can build a more sustainable business on my own first. I just by, like you said, setting setting some boundaries with how I work, optimizing a few different things so that I'm spending less time on some of the admin stuff. Um and I can name some specific examples of those things too. Um, but yeah, really realizing that, you know, even if my goal still is someday to build something that's bigger than just me as a solo doula, like having the um foundation and having those sustainable doula business practices already set for myself is like that's that's such a good like having that good foundation is a better place to start than you know trying to build this thing and then figure it out along the way. Um and I can pause, but I'm also happy to name some of those like specific things that that we worked on and have made have made this feel so much more sustainable, just even as a solar.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Yeah, I think we I do want you to do that, but I but I think too I want to just like take a second to acknowledge too that like so frequently as doulas, because we are usually under trained and under experienced in the business side of it, we are reactionary, right? And so like some ways in some in a good way, right? Where like you're saying, like, you're like, I can't attend a birth for that amount of money ever again. So my price is going up tonight before I go to bed, right? Yep. But also, I think even in like one thing I remember about the collaborative like conversations is like it's apparent that you all are aligned in how you want to support clients and what you believe about birth work, like that matters so much. And also, like your reason for wanting to do this feels a little reactionary in the sense that you're like, I can't do what I did last year. It's like, yes, I agree. You can't do what you did last year. And also, like, I don't know that this is gonna actually alleviate that issue, right? And so in some ways, we are sort of like, I'll throw this at it, you know. It's like, well, what if that just causes a new set of issues? And like, I that's a lovely community that you have. So we also don't want to mess with it, right? Like, if it's not gonna be lovely, if it's gonna mess up the community that's already there, we really don't want to do that. And so, like the sustainability piece, that's like, okay, well, let's imagine that like your business as an individual doula is going to work smoother and be easier to function with some sustainability practices, which I do want you to talk a bit about. And then imagine that if you have those going and a year from now or two years from now, the collective feels more aligned, like that person that wanted to have a baby has a toddler and maybe can attend more births, right? Like this, this is a fluid situation, right? But then you already are coming, being like, hey guys, I have these systems in place that we can all implement, we can all utilize as a collective, and it's something that's going to benefit you with or without that goal coming to fruition in the future, if that makes sense. Yeah. So I do want you to take a second to talk about like for you, what are kind of the most significant, like I because I think again, these are things that we kind of like we're always like, oh, what a what a small thing that you did that shift, but they're huge, right? Like, and I mean this has been my like soapbox that I live on for the last little bit because I'm like, no, my whole life fell apart for the first four months of the year, and my business did not because I had those systems in place, right? And the systems that felt like kind of mundane and ridiculous actually held shit together, and that's why we have them. And so I would love to hear like what are the most impactful ones for you and kind of what have you seen in terms of your business that has actually felt very like relieved or like a little bit more streamlined, a little bit easier because of those.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Okay, I'm in my head, I'm like mentally trying to prioritize and be like, what because I I feel like we have so many at this point, but I think number one is price. That is really this work, no matter all the other systems that you put in place, is not sustainable if you are not earning a live a living wage. Um just uh say that one more time for the people in the back. I'm and it's such a I know it's such a personal thing, and everybody has different reasons for doing this work. And so it's you know, it again, yeah, it's it's it's personal, and um, you all have everybody has to figure out what what works for them, but it is not sustainable. Um with if you're not earning a living wage, it just it's not, and it I think it has to be. I don't know if this is actual data, I don't know if this is evidence-based, Kaylee, but I feel like with the doula, um doula burnout near or what is it, two years is the average. Like I really have to bet that that is around not having not having a little sustainable wage.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

I mean, it's like 18 months, and I think it is. Like, I think it's about the fact that we don't pay ourselves enough to compensate for the fact that we lose so much sleep and time with our people, you know. Yeah, like that has to be, I mean, as silly as it is to be like we need to be able to afford self-care around that, but that's actually true, you know.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

It's actually true, it's actually true. Um, and being able to, you know, with with having a more sustainable, um, uh more sustainable price, it it also then allows you to take that time off. Like I think the having, I think we're both somebody, we're both doulas who try to take a little bit of time off call in the summer. And that, like last summer, I had um, I can't even remember, at least, at least four to six weeks of off-call time. And again, after that busy year, that was so um it just so needed. And I think it just contributes to um the that burnout is if you're not paying yourself enough to take that time off, like truly off call, um, that's it's just gonna contribute to that that burnout rate.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Okay, so raising your rates was your first rate. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Um, raising my rates, and then this is, I mean, this is one of those ones that I know seems silly, but is honestly has saved me so much time. And maybe this is one where people are like, oh yeah, like that, duh, Google templates. I did not know that Gmail, there were templates in Gmail. Um, so when we just like looked at some of my client emails and um looked at that, you were like, oh, Gmail has templates. Like you don't have to have, I do use Honeybook for as a CRM, and I'm sure I could automate and like do more emails through them, but I I kind of like having my emails and Gmail. So just being able to have some of those templates um specifically for a welcome email and like a thank you and please leave me a review email. Um, just having those templates built and like, you know, still easily personalizing them to each family, um, but having those there and built has made that part of like onboarding and I don't know is offboarding. Is that a is that a word? But like yes, it is. Okay, onboarding and offboarding. Um those parts of the process, it has saved me so much time um to just have those there and be able to use those. Um, and then on the note of the template and the welcome email, one of the boundaries that you helped me put in place was um having like being able to in that email kind of lay out some of those like initial initial boundaries for families right away. So one of the things that I um that I say to families in my welcome email is, you know, very nicely, and like I add smiley faces and exclamation points in my emails because that's who I am. Um, but say, like, you know, when when I'm not on call for you, you know, in in your on call window, please expect 24 to 48 hours um for a text back. Like if it's not urgent. And if it is urgent, please call me or, you know, your provider, obviously. Um, but having that um having that called out right away has given me like that's something that used to give me some anxiety. I I would feel like, oh my gosh, it's you know, Sunday at 10 a.m. I just got a text from a client, I need to respond right away. And it was like, I'm not on call for you right now. I this and this isn't an urgent issue. I can absolutely wait 24 hours and text you back Monday at 10 a.m. So just having again, having that in a template and not having to repeat it or reword it every time, but just lay it out right away and just set that set that boundary has just been something that again makes this work feel so sustainable because or so much more sustainable. Um, because I feel better about being able to, if I'm off call, set my phone down and not not feel like I have to get back to everybody so quickly. So that was kind of a two for one.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

Yeah, I love that. Um, the other thing I remember that I had forgotten about was that you when we first started working together, and I'm laughing just because remembering this. I remember being like, So what how many times do you see your clients in your package? And you were like, it depends. And I was like, What do you what do you mean? I was like, is it different every time? Like, how do you choose? What do you mean?

SPEAKER_00 30:58

I decides. I know, right? Truly who decides. And that okay, that was my third thing. So I'm glad that you said that because that was my third thing, is yes, having that conversation. So the way that I used to the way that I used to um talk to clients about prenatal visits was I would say I meet with most families two to three times, but you know, I'm very flexible. I really want to be the support that you need. Um, so it's, you know, if you need more, you we can meet more. If not, that's fine. Um, it was very, very wishy-washy. And I the thing that really um that you said that helped me kind of like flip that for me, like a mindset shift, was that um putting putting that on the client to decide is actually really not that helpful for them. Like then they're giving that, they're having to think about it, they're having to decide. They're um, I think my my desire to be flexible for my families um was probably it's not best served in like we just we just meet however many times, however many times you want. Like that's that's really not doing them that it's making it's making that a little harder for them to like decide what they really need, versus me just saying, you know, we meet two times. Um this is you know, this is what we'll talk about. Obviously, we save time for whatever is on your mind, you know, obviously just getting to know each other is very important. Um, but like I'll have a plan for what we what we chat about our two times, and then obviously I'm available um you know, phone calls, texts, whatever you need, um virtually, you know, until until it's time to have your baby.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

Yeah. I mean, I think I remember when we chatted about this. I mean, at first, and I should probably say, like, I have moments like this with my own coach all the time, right? Like the last week's episode was all about like how it took me a decade to do um to do branding photos. And my my coach and I had a conversation recently, and I was like, it's been a crazy year. I haven't like done my podcast as much, I haven't launched like a new cohort of coaching, you know, and she was like, just update your brand photos. And I was like, I don't have it, I don't know. What do you mean? And she she was like, I'm sorry, what? And so she like paused, she like put her hands over her eyes, she like put them down, took a deep breath, and she was like, What do you mean you don't have my mom? And I was like, I mean, I just have never and she was like, Okay, so that's your only homework, you know. But but I think this is it's a perfect example of like it's just how I've been doing it. And like, because I just have like it's more of an interruption for me to tell myself I need to pause and do that thing differently than to just keep plugging along in the way that I've been plugging along without someone being like, you know, there's an easier way, right? Like, there's do you think this is helpful to you? Like, what do you think your people are getting from that? You know, where like I remember at some point a client asked me, and this is sort of the moment I think when I was kind of like, Oh yeah, I need to just tell you what you need. Because she was like, I see you have these different packages. I don't know, like what package should I buy? And I'm like, Oh, this one. Because I at the time I had three or four, and it was like the smallest one was ridiculously too small, right? Like it was like, we need to meet more than once. This is not helpful. Don't pick this one, you know. The middle one was actually what I do now, which is like I'm on call for you, and you, you know, I'm at your birth as long as you want. We meet twice, one is in person, one is virtual. Like it was that, and then the bigger ones were like a thousand dollars more and like ridiculous, like things that did not need, I don't even remember, you know. But I was like, I don't know, two two postpartum visits instead of one and like six spring, it was just like so, so stupid. But she was just like, Well, which one is the best? And I was like, Oh, easy, the second one. Yeah, that's the one you want. But I was like, then why do I even have a degree? Like, you know, but she's like, I don't like just tell me how to work with you, like tell me what what we actually need to do because I don't want to just buy the cheapest version, but I also don't want to like spend money that's not needed, and so the clarity is there for you, but also for them, right? And they don't have the space to then come back and be like, Hey, I thought we were having a third or fourth. You did say you sometimes do more depending on what someone needs. And I think I need to see you five times, and you're just like, wait a second, you know. It's like, but technically you didn't tell me it was only two, so exactly.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

That's I I literally used to say at least twice, but whatever you need. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

A little Midwestern, but you know it's very Minnesota.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Well, and I think it's just so like part of that. Um, not that in initial doula trainings you hear, yeah, do as many prenatals as they need, but just that like that belief that as doulas, like we have to be, oh, something's beeping. Oh, it's my coffee maker. Um, sorry about that. Um we can't hear it, so you're fine. Excellent. Then I just interrupted myself for no reason. Um that but just that belief that like we need to be just so flexible.