Welcome to the Relationship Recovery Podcast, hosted by Jessica Knight, a certified life coach who specializes in narcissistic and emotional abuse. This podcast is intended to help you identify manipulative and abusive behavior, set boundaries with yourself and others, and heal the relationship with your.

So you can learn to love in a healthy way.

Hello, and thank you for being here today. I have Lisa Sunny on our podcast. Lisa is a survivor of domestic assault and narcissistic abuse, and her experience led her to become a certified life and relationship coach who helps clients of all genders and walks of life overcome challenges stemming from traumatic partnerships.

She posts tons and tons of content on trauma bonds and narcissistic abuse on her platforms. She's very popular on TikTok as stronger than before, as well as Instagram under the same handle. This conversation dives very deep into trauma bonds, the intricacies of trauma bonds, how it looks, how it feels, and how you can begin to break free from it.

I really hope that this is helpful to you. I hope that you can begin to see your. In the cycle if you're in it, and I will post all of Lisa's links in the show notes so you can listen and not feel the need to write everything down.

Okay. Hi Lisa. Thank you for being here. My pleasure. Do you mind introducing yourself and telling us all about you and all the things that you. Yes, absolutely. So my name is Lisa Sunny, and I'm known online as Stronger than Before. I'm on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube under that name. My primary business really is teaching people about trauma bonds and how to break trauma bonds, something that we all feel very crazy when we're in the throws of an abusive relationship and wondering why we can't leave.

I've also created an online course called the Trauma Bond Recovery. It's a 12 week self-guided program that teaches you all the things that you need to know on how to get out of these relationships, as well as the trauma bond recovery journal. Which is a book that goes with the course. It's not mandatory reading, but it works really well with, and they follow the same 12 week plan.

And then my second book was Rebuilding After a Trauma Bond. That's really for people who've broken the trauma bond, but you still feel kind of messed up. You still feel like. If you don't know who you are and you need to rebuild that sense of yourself so you don't repeat the same mistakes. Awesome. So as you were talking that it was really interesting because I have a set of questions in front of me and then I was just thinking like when I found you, I typed in trauma bonds on Amazon and I found your book, the Journal, the Recovery Journal, and I remember feeling like not many people are writing about trauma.

Or they naming it a trauma bond. I know now it's a buzzword on Instagram. But you've been in this work for a while now, right? Yes. Yeah. Why do you think there isn't that much out there about what a trauma bond is? I think that in general there's not a lot out there about abusive relationships and why people stay.

Now. If you Google, why do people stay? Things come up and even the trauma bond comes up. But you have to be looking for that. So it's hard because we don't often have the language to know what we're looking for. Nobody Googles, Why do I stay in an abusive relationship? It's usually friends and family. Why do people stay?

And it's hard to believe when you hear it's a trauma bond. And I'll speak from my own experience when I heard that phrase. It sounded like something that someone else would be experiencing. I wouldn't fall into that. Particularly when you start to look at the, Well, I mean more than similarities. Trauma bond is essentially Stockholm syndrome.

I think we all picture a kidnapped child and, and that that's the common belief of what Stockholm Syndrome is. And you fall in love with the man that kidnapped you and you don't realize that men and women can both fall into trauma bonds and it, it happens when there's an imbalance of power and a dynamic.

Abuse mixed with positive reinforcement. But once you start to learn that it all makes sense. But that phrase, trauma bond isn't used very often. I mean, even still, I don't see a lot on it. I see a bit because I'm, It's my world. It's your world. But the average person has no idea what that is. Yeah, I completely agree.

I remember when friends would ask me, Why are you staying? Why are you staying in an abusive relationship? Mine was not physical. It was emotional and verbal. And they, I would just say, I can't leave. When I, once I had the word trauma bond, I'd say it and they'd be like, What the hell is that? You know? And I remember feeling like, I know what this feels like, but nobody else actually gets it unless they've been in it.

Mm-hmm. , how do you define what a trauma bond? Outside of the clinical definition, because I think even that clinical definition that I gave about, you know, intermittent positive reinforcement mixed with abuse sort of clinically, we can all understand. But what does it feel like? How do you know if you're in one?

How can you describe it? My view on that is it feels like, you know, you need to leave, but you physically can't. Like the thought of putting clothes in a suitcase and walking up the door is kind of akin to dying in a way. You are. But you aren't stuck, but you feel stuck. You feel trapped. You love them, but you simultaneously hate them.

That whole state of confusion to me is the biggest indicator of a trauma bond where you just feel like you don't know what to do, and so you get paralyzed with indecision. What are some of the common signs of a trauma bond other than indecision or knowing that you need to leave and you. Finding yourself, making excuses for your partner is a big, big one.

And I think that's even sort of in two parts. So you're making excuses, but you're making excuses to friends and family about their behavior that they may see or question, but you're also making excuses to yourself for your abuser. He does this or she does this. Of childhood and trauma. Their ex-wife, they were abused.

They something that makes them this way. So when you find yourself rationalizing why they treat you so badly, that's also a very big indicator of being in a trauma bond. Yeah, I think that's a really important part, is that the excuses part, because that's what, as I think people in our role as the coach, we hear, we hear all the excuses and the justifications.

What do you think are some common excuses that you hear often from people? I actually also use the phrase excuses. And I, I have found that to be triggering for some people because they feel like, Hey, these aren't excuses, these are valid reasons. I'm on the fence  about defining it as a, a good or bad reason because it's a reason, and I think anybody's reasons are valid and need to be worked through.

Um, you know, arguably more like environmental reasons, meaning money. Um, fear of death, fear of being murdered. Those things are, are very real, where the emotional side is some ways it feels harder actually, but making that attempt to actually leave, people get stuck and they say to themselves, I can't leave.

We have kids. I can't leave. He's gonna take the kids. I can't leave. We, you know, we have too much money invested. We've been together for 20 years. I can't just walk out the door. Um, I don't know where I'll live. I don't know if I can be alone. Um, for me, fundamentally all of the things, with the exception of the physical, you know, fear of being murdered, um, they all kind of fall into fear or guilt.

Mm-hmm.  for the most, You know, it's become normal to be in this abusive relationship, and we start rationalizing that it's not so bad. As soon as we start to really think about leaving and really look at what that might look like, we think, Oh, it's not that bad. Worse. Even if the abuser starts to notice that you're pulling away a little bit and setting boundaries, or you aren't as engaged in their chaos, Then they start to ramp up either the abuse or the kindness.

They search a kind of Hoover, and then you make excuses like, Well see, look, the nice person is back. Now I knew that that person was in there still. I knew that they still love me. Yeah. And then it continues on the cycle, you know, And it's just a big loop. Yep. Yeah. . I often say that to clients a lot, that they have normalized the abusive behaviors to them it's normal now cause they've had to live in this world for a long time, but in beginning to break away from it, which could be so hard, it's like they don't even understand there's another way that they can be or feel mm-hmm.

or that doing something else might feel better because the normal or is Well the abuse became so normal. Mm-hmm.  and I've had a few. Probably within the last two weeks that have said the same sentence to me. They said, But you know, you can't have it all right. And every time that they say that, I would say that, that just hits me like right in the heart, you know?

Of like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like you can't have it all. Who has everything? And I'm just like, I'm a single mom. You know? I'm sitting here, I'm like, I don't necessarily have it all, but I definitely don't have abuse right now. And I know what it was like when I did and when I. What do you think about that sentence of like the, we can't have it all?

I think that people have a mentality that comes from their own life, their own trauma, their own life experience, and they project that onto other people. I think it's sad that people, and it isn't gender specific, but. I guess it's just my own experience that women are saying this to other women, but I imagine it's across the genders, you can't have it all, or you can't expect too much or, Hey, listen, things aren't perfect.

Right. And I think also it ties into what you're saying about you can't have it all, you're not being physically abused, so it's like, it's not abuse, it's toxic. He's mean to you, you're not, it's, you're saying abuse, but what you mean is toxic. We as, as victims are like, No, no. I'm using that word very specifically for a reason.

It's what it is. Um, and sadly, you know, we, I don't literally have a PhD, but I have a PhD in narcissistic abuse because you have to throw yourself down that rabbit hole to kind of get yourself out. But what I've learned is that you can have it all. It's what is that person's definition of all. You can't have it all, meaning I'm just making this up, but you have a nice house and two beautiful kids, so the abuse should be something that is tolerable because you have these other things, can't have it all.

You have the house, so you're gonna have a terrible husband. See how that works? And I think, no, I do not see how that works. I would like to have a house and a man that doesn't hit me. Thank you so much. But when you're out. When you've never been through it, I sort of understand you may not get it, but if you've been through it and you're out and you're, I, I can't speak for others, but where I am, I have it all.

What is all, I don't own a home anymore, but I have two beautiful children. I have a really loving, amazing partner who is respectful, not abusive, and I don't mean that to say he's flaw. But I'm not being abused. And so my bar isn't as low as just basic, don't abuse me. It's much higher than that now. And I have that in my partner.

He meets the very high bar that I've set. And I think that's what people need to strive for and stop making excuses. And I don't mean the victim, I mean the people around us stop making excuses for bad behavior in other people. Yeah, and just saying, you should be. With the abuse because you've got the other things, you've got a nice job.

He or she provides a nice life, you know, so and so's a good mom, so it's okay that she screams at you all the time. No, it's not. Yeah, I completely agree. In my situation, I was in a, I had a very toxic marriage and then I also had a emotionally abusive relationship. And when I left that relationship and I was like working through the end, it was actually his mom who would keep messaging me and she'd be.

Some things you just need to accept in marriage. And I was just sitting here like, I remember at one point I wrote back to her like once I finally like was getting outta the fog and I was like, with all due respect, like I'm from New York. I don't just accept anything. Like that's just not who I am. Like I'm not that person.

I will not just accept the fact that like he doesn't wanna do anything and he wants me to show up exactly how he wants me. I can't do that. I've tried that my whole life and it's spit me out, you know? And I did a really poor job doing it in the relationship clearly because we fought so much. Cause I couldn't fit the exact thing that he wanted me to.

But like when I was in it, I remember feeling, this is so painful. But you're right. Like once you start to get on the other side, you're like, the way this person sees it is ridiculous. Like, they're seeing my situation in such a ridiculous way. I don't agree anymore, but I feel like I, you know, I'm jumping around a little bit because like this, this topic is so deep and it's so exciting to me.

But I just wanna go back to. Some of the, what it's like to be in that trauma bond. So as a coach, when someone is coming to you, and I know, I feel like in your situation a lot of people are coming to you because they know that you work with trauma bonds, whereas with me, they might not know yet. Mm-hmm.

but if they don't know or if they're confused about it, how can you tell that they are trauma bonded? The biggest indicator for me is the excuses to be honest in the very, very beginning, because I ask a question commonly, I ask this question, why do. Now that question can also be very triggering because why do you stay?

There's a tone to it. It's your fault because you've stayed. And I'm not asking from that place. So I always sort of make note. I'm asking from a place of understanding, not a place of judgment, because I stayed, I know people that have stayed. We've all stayed. So I'm asking you to be honest with yourself about why you stay.

And so the answers typically are, it could be, I know I'm trauma bonded, but, and then they keep going or they say, I'm not sure if I'm in a trauma bond, but here's why I stay. And they say things like, I'm afraid if I leave. He's going to try to destroy me in court or, which isn't as relevant if it's just a divorce, but if there's kids involved, of course, that's a different beast, or that I feel guilty or every time I try to leave, he tells me I'm destroying our family or that I'm gonna die alone, or they threaten things.

So first and foremost, what I can tell in there is that you are in fact dealing with an abuse. A narcissist or not, I can't tell from a conversation, but you can see that you're dealing with an abuser pretty quickly. And more often than not, if you're dealing with an abuser and you're dealing with a victim or survivor who cannot see past it and say he's a nice person, but sometimes he screams at me.

She's really, really nice most of the time, but sometimes she throws things. Or he or she cheats on me, or it's the excuses of I know this bad thing is happening, but, and as a coach I can see that they're experiencing cognitive dissonance, that confusion. Is a big indicator too, that you're kind of living a dual reality.

You believe that they're a good person and they do some bad things, but you rationalize why. You also know that they're a terrible person pretending to be nice, but you can't figure it out. Yeah. Can you actually define cognitive dissonance for us? Yes. So cognitive dissonance. You know, when I first learned that phrase, it was in the context of abuse.

It. Something that applies specifically to abuse, but basically it is a state of mental discomfort and confusion where you are attempting to hold two different beliefs or ideologies or set of values at the same time. And it's not how the human brain works. We cannot hold two opposing beliefs at the same time of anything.

And so this state of confusion, and I sort of say this on one hand, he's a wonderful man and really, really kind. But sometimes he does bad things and it's because of trauma, blah, blah. But also you see that he's got a really violent, vicious. Um, personality that just pops up every so often. And he's nice to you sometimes, right?

So like you might feel like he's manipulating you. Those are two completely opposing beliefs. A person can't be good and bad at the same time. People are fundamentally one or the other. Our world view tends to be. That people are fundamentally good. We're not really mentally prepared for something like this.

These specific personalities, like the dark triad personalities of psychopathy, sociopathy, and narcissism, you might know what they are, might, but you don't really know until you've lived it or you know, you've researched it clinically. So you, you're trying to make this fit and the reality is it's hard to think that you chose someone who is so horrible.

And that you missed all the signs. With that comes shame and grief and self blame and feeling stupid, which we aren't, but you know, those are the feelings that we have, and so our brain goes, Yeah, he's a good guy that does bad things sometimes. You need to believe that because the other is so, so, so hard to believe.

So you kind of subconsciously choose the easier option. Yeah. Well, and that's brings us right back to where we started of normalizing the abuse. It's like that's your brain's way of surviving through this experience. That the outside world doesn't quite understand why you don't walk away. Mm-hmm. , one of the questions that I got as a response to the Instagram post I put up was, is it possible to break a trauma bond without actually breaking up?

And my response was, and I didn't respond to them, but my internal response was, No, I really wanted to ask you about, What a complicated question. Okay, so no is the answer. However, I don't think this is what the person meant, but I had a question with a client this week that was, can you break the trauma bond while you are still living with them?

Meaning while you're considering leaving, I feel like the person on your post was asking, Without breaking up, meaning can you break the trauma bond and stay together? Right. So then truthfully, that's not the question. The question is, can the abuser stop being abusive change, and then can we live a happy life together?

And I'm gonna say yes, except that we're asking is it possible? Yes. Is it gonna happen? I would bet every dollar in my bank account that it won't happen because abusers don't change. Narcissists, meaning the ones who clinically meet the criteria to be diagnosed, whether they're diagnosed or not, can they learn empathy?

No. Are they going to make an attempt to try no. 99.9% of the time? No. And please, you know, for the listeners, don't clinging to that tread of a percent. Play the. I think what's important to know is that forget narcissist. He's an abuser. She is an abuser, and you need to find a way to choose you, and it is incredibly hard to do while you're still in a relationship.

I actually have used an example of, imagine you were rock climbing and the person in front or above you kept kicking you in the face as you're trying to get. And climb up this rock. So staying in an abusive relationship while simultaneously trying to break the trauma bond is like being kicked in the face repeatedly when you're climbing a rock wall and it's just, Sure, eventually you might gain some speed and learn how to navigate a little bit, but ultimately it's still happening.

So the best way to do it is to leave. But of course you've gotta catch 22 because you need to leave to get the clarity. So that you can see what's happening, but if you don't have the clarity, how do you leave? So it's hard, and that's why in my trombone recovery course, it is geared towards people who are both in or out of the relationship.

Because to say that you can only take the course when you leave is unreasonable. Unfortunately, we don't all have the strength to make that decision, and we need the clarity to make the decision. Yeah, that's a really important point. And when I work with clients too, if they're not ready to just leave right away or like leave or just stop the contact or take those steps, I try and help them.

What's the first step that we can take? What are you comfortable with? You know, can we lengthen out the time of the phone calls? Can we choose to see them less? Like if they don't wanna. No contact. Cut. I feel like I saw a post from you, and please correct me if I'm wrong, about no contact is the only way to go to heal is that it is the best way.

I wouldn't say that it's the only way, but yeah, I definitely feel it is the best way and I know if I make content on that, I. Get a million comments saying, But I have kids so I can't, And yeah, I understand that, but, and I have a kid with an ex  and, um, I just created rules for myself around what I would contact him on and what I would not engage on.

I was no contact for 18 months. No contact whatsoever with children. How did you do that? Restraining orders are helpful if you can get them, but it isn't possible for everyone. I would say that just like the short answer of how to do that, not that you even asked that question, but is having someone else be the intermediary, has to be someone in theory that you both trust but focus on that you trust that person and what that means for that person to be the contact person.

And then of, I also hear like, Oh, my abuser refuses. I'm just, You said you're from New York. I'm Italian. There's no refusing, It's not an option. Right. And there's, you can refuse to speak to that person and then you will have no contact whatsoever. So there isn't a choice, but keep your safety pot priority.

I was in a physically abusive relationship, so I mean, I was very cautious of my physical safety when I was making these decisions. And it's never.  because again, I, I might say, yeah, just tell them they have no choice. I think anybody who knows narcissists knows that that's. Something that they go, Oh, okay.

I have no choice. They freak out. They could come to your house, they could smash the cameras you have outside your house, try to run you off the road. I've heard the most outrageous things when people try to implement the boundaries. So I, I don't say that it's easy, but do what is possible and safe within your own situation to make an attempt to go as no contact as possible.

And if that means it's low contact, that's fine. If you share children, then it becomes making sure that the communication is about the children and not falling into traps of like, it seems like it's about the children, but it's really not about the children. I was accused of having a rotation of men and I wasn't dating anyone at the time.

You know, the concern for the child of an exposure to a rotation of men. But see, it wasn't about the children. And you might think that it is, and you might think, Okay, I know it's not, but what if a judge sees this? I don't care. It's not about the children, and I'm gonna make that decision. I'm not gonna let him get into my mind.

When that was being thrown at me, I, I had already broken the trauma bond, so I know that that interaction would've been harder had it been six months earlier and I was in it, it's. Put your phone down. Take a deep breath and ask someone to help you read these messages and help you sift through the nonsense and see if it is in fact about the children.

I'm a big advocate for hiring a divorce coach, although some are a little rile you up in the family court system, you need one that is very levelheaded, very clearheaded, and can understand what's what's going on and what they're dealing with, and keep the emotion. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, because the purpose of no contact is so that you start to have some space in your brain and, and you start to be able to see things clearly, and you can't do it when you're in it.

I know, and you know this, that when you're in it, you're like, you just said it, you know, six months before you wouldn't have been able to respond in that way. But now that six months after you were able to see it clearly and respond and be like, Nope, this has nothing to do with the kids, and I am moving on.

You know, I'll respond one part, but back to like that question. I really think that that person that asked the question, and most likely was looking to stay in the relationship, and I did try and break my trauma bonds while I was still in the relationship, which is the question that your client had this week.

That was incredibly difficult and it was much easier. Not easy. Okay. Much. No, I know what you mean. It's relative. It's not easy. Easy in terms of like the clarity was there once. I wasn't in it anymore because I wasn't as triggered. And I tell people that all the time. Like when you're constant, like if you're trying not to drink and then you constantly are around alcohol, you're going to be constantly triggered and all these thoughts that you don't wanna have.

But when you're fully focused on. It's not going to look like that anymore. Mm-hmm. , another question that came in was, can a relationship be salvaged after a trauma bond? And my response to that was, no, I didn't respond to them, but I read them and I was like, I think this is the same. It's can an abuser change?

I always say to people, the question really isn't, can they? It's will they? And the answer is no. I really, really empathize and I understand from my own lived experie. The absolute desire to be the exception and to say that I can change him. But I think that there's so much more to that of why do you need or want to fix the person when they don't want to be fixed?

And a key thing that I use as a perfect, um, in my view, a perfect way to explain it. You want him to change. And I know it's not always him, but I'm saying him cuz it's my lived experience. But you want him to change, You want him to stop being abusive and so you need to do what you need to first get them to understand that they're being abusive, but they knew the whole time.

They do know. I can give you 50 examples to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they unequivocally know that they're being abusive. So if they know they're being abusive and they're doing it anyway, then actually what you are seeing is a active choice every single day to not change and to be abusive.

So what do you mean you want to try to convince him to change? Like what reason? What's gonna be the thing you scream? Crying isn't the thing. Him having a threat to lose everything isn't the thing. Some people think maybe I'll threaten to leave and I will leave. I'll, I'll pack my bags and I'll go, and then I'll hope that he'll try to get me back.

But the problem with abusers is that, yeah, they probably will try to get you back and they'll say all the. They'll do all the things and it'll seem so real. Maybe I promise I'll go to therapy. All this, all that. And the ones that are saying that may go to therapy or not, the ones that do, you're like, See, he's trying, see, this is what change looks like.

But what's he getting out of therapy? You know? And it's usually nothing. And it's also usually I said I would go, I was busy this week, I was busy next week, and I can't, and it's hard. And I tried to find, and we don't have the money, and there's just a million reasons. There's a million reasons. But these guys also often not always have like, you know, gambling porn, drug addiction, substance abuse problems.

You have money for booze and coke, but you don't have money for therapy to fix this relat. But you're here watching TikTok videos and Dr. Romney on YouTube and reading 75 books on how to fix your marriage, and he's just not having the time to go to therapy or do anything. Yeah, and I think too, that when they do the things that you've been asking them to do to fix it, when they fe that attempt, So they knew the whole time what they needed to do, and they were just, again, willfully choosing to not do it.

So none of this is evidence of a person who wants to change. So you have to think for yourself, what does real change look like? And there's an actual definition truly, which is that it is self-motivated, driven completely by that person. It is not you begging your husband to change. They won't, unless they say, I have a problem truly and not, we have a problem.

I have a problem. Right, right. I have a problem and I want to work on it. Yeah. And so what do you think is the first step to beginning to break the trauma bond? Once they realize that someone realized they're in it and that this relationship is abusive and they need to start doing something so, I have a sort of a, it's a three step process.

It's really 12 steps, but it's three overarching steps. So the first one is education. And I say that to mean, yeah, you need to find out what is gas lighting, what is emotional abuse? What is psychological abuse, and what are all the things that come with that? What is a trauma bond? What is the science behind a trauma bond?

What is the chemical stuff behind a trauma bond? What is happening? What is at the root of abuse? What is this person's. Is it power? Is it control? The education is massive. Yeah. You're not gonna learn it in a few weeks. It takes, I mean, it depends on how much time you spend, but you know, it could take a year to really like get it.

Some of these steps can overlap, but that's the real first step. These things help you live in reality because you're being gaslit and confused. And again, if you're still in the relationship and you're trying to break it, then you are still being gaslit and confused. And what I hear is like, Oh, you're watching TikTok and you're listening to these stupid, bitter women who are just complaining about their husbands.

And the word narcissist is so overused and they just diminish and devalue. But that's again, like it's just ongoing abuse that you're in, but it's just creates more confusion. So ideally you're away from it through the education and it'll help you live in reality. Dr. Romney has a great tip about making a list of all the things they've done to harm you.

And I don't mean every single thing they ever did. And the list is 26 pages. I mean, like they cheat, they gaslight, they use the children as weapons against you. What are the top 10 kind of big, overarching things that you need to remind yourself of constantly? I tell people to start recording safely and privately conversations, and if you can't get it recorded, write it down.

Always keep it in a place they can't find, Never, ever, under any circumstance, for any reason, at any point, show them the list because it's not for them. It's for you to keep yourself in reality. The second step is starting to really listen to yourself, and this is where some of that self work comes. You know, you need inner child work.

You need to really be in therapy if possible. Coaching works as well, obviously. But digging into where this all comes from, what led you here? Why are you the kind of person who has put someone else's needs above yours to your detriment, and just basically ask for. And again, it's not from a place of judgment.

Why are you doing this? Mm-hmm. , now that you can see and you're still here, what has caused this? What are your unmet needs? Because the narcissist offered you your childhood fantasy of what you would have a life like as an adult. The narcissist offered you all of your unmet needs. So what are they? Can you meet them yourself?

Are there other ways you can meet them that don't include this person? What are your. What are behaviors that are acceptable and unacceptable? What are your values? All that. And grief is a big part of that too. Listening to that and accepting that you may still grieve the loss of someone who abused you.

It's still your whole life, right? Letting go of the potential of the relationship and, and the past, the future, letting go of it all. And then the last piece, Self-love, which is not really a thing. You can just learn. And then you have, it's an ongoing thing, but you start the process by building a support system and you may have a support system.

Is it the right support system? Are you getting what you need? Do you even know what you need? Do you sometimes call your mom and she says things, but also make some passive aggressive comments? Is she open to hearing how you sh you know, it bothers you and to stop that, Or if. Maybe we don't talk to mom anymore about that.

Build that support system. And if you have no one truly, truly no one, there are ways to build a support system. And you know, great thing about online is you can find community in Facebook groups. I have one, many people have, you know, small communities of people that can talk with you sort of peer to peer when I say that.

But building a future that doesn't include them. Where will you live? Where will you. How much money do you need to earn? Are you earning enough? Do you need a different car? Do you not have a car? Do you, what will life look like? Build that future, because that fear of the unknown is terrifying and it will paralyze you.

So figure out those fears and how to overcome the things that might be blocks for you to leave. That's sort of leading into the self-love aspect of who are you without them, I mean, I hear people all the time saying like, I don't even know what kind of food I like because I just always cooked for. I was always, you know, doing her bidding and doing what she wanted, and I never thought about what I like, what I want.

She never let me control the radio, so you don't even know. So literally like what kind of food do you like? What's your favorite color? What makes you happy, what makes you sad? Start thinking about those things. So my course and my journal is through that process so you can actually start to really reflect and, and get in there.

But if you don't start that first, Bit of learning and you just keep sitting there paralyzed. You'll be there forever. Yeah. I'm glad that your answer started with the education piece because I think that's the biggest thing is that when we're in the trauma bomb, we're probably telling ourselves we don't think that they're a narciss, or they're not always gaslighting, or it's not this.

And then once you read the behaviors on paper, you know, and then it's like first you read it in a book, then you see it online, then you hear an Instagram post, then you're on TikTok and you're like, I can't unsee the same five things 12 times. Like I keep seeing the same five things I have to start to believe.

And then this opens up this whole new world of a whole new personality trait that you didn't know that was so prominent. Mm-hmm. . Now you can't unsee it. I agree. You start to see it in videos and honestly, I make skits. There's another creator, well she's on all the platforms as well, but sinful, S Y N F U, Cynthia, she was, I see she does skits and she once said to me like, You should do.

And I, I honestly was like, Oh, I feel stupid, but I was like, I'm just gonna, just gonna do it. And they've kind of taken off. But I do a lot of skits now, and I do it because I get the most comments, which might seem like I'm just caring about engagement, but when I say comments, I get more people saying, Oh my God, that's my life.

Yeah. Yeah. And some of them are really weird, like niche. Niche little conversations that are, so I feel specific to, you know, a little bit my life and a little bit the lives of comments and, and people around me. But we all are unfortunately kind of bonded together. Not trauma bonded, but bonded together in being able to share this horrible experience together.

And we know what it feels like, but when you see these videos by me or by anyone else and you're like, Man, I really resonate with that, it makes me sad. But also this is exactly what the world needs, is more education so that more men and women can see what's happening and find their way out. Yeah, if somebody was at the point where they have identified they have a trauma bond and they're working to leave the relationship and maybe they have left the relationship and now this person comes back and they're like, You know what?

I'm gonna change all these things. I'm gonna do all the things. The typical thing that we hear, what do you say to the victim? They, they may not have fully broken the trauma bond, but they are on their way. What I notice in my practice is it kind of goes back and forth, so I'm curious what happens with your, and like one day it's like, I don't want this.

I'm done. I'm out. I see what it is, I'm not going back to him. And then the next day it could sound a little bit like, but he's really sorry. He sent me this nice email. I typically look at the like, we need to stay right with reality. We need to look at the history. We need to look at all the healing and how great you feel right now.

What do you tell people when they're in that dance? I have a couple of things that I would say, and the first is how much do you want it to be true? Just be honest with yourself because I can answer you. For me, at that stage in my own recovery, I don't think I wanted anything more. I wanted it like I wanted air.

I wanted him to be able to change more than I wanted to breathe. And it meant everything to me because again, I felt like I was dying. There were days where I would lay in bed or on the bathroom floor crying so hard that I, honest to God questioned, Can you die from crying? So when I like, I really understand that feeling of I need him to be telling me the truth.

I need this to be real change. So first, admit that to yourself and then admit that that's gonna cloud your judgment. Now look at your actual lived experience. How many times has he said he'll change? Don't even get, let's not even go to the part where like, this feels different this time. How many times has he made promises?

And honestly, the answer is many, right? It depends, but many. And then look at what does change look like for you? Cuz it's not the same for everyone. But the one thing that is the same for everyone is that it's self-motivated as I. But Mentalness Li Hammock, who is a friend of mine, has said this, Go change.

Go ahead, go change. I'll be over here. Take the relationship off the table and see if they are still willing to change. Because if the change was to get you back, it's fake period. The end, it is fake. If they're like, Okay, I accept that you're not gonna be with me, I'm still gonna go to therapy and I'm still gonna be a better person, and I'm immediately gonna start treating you.

Or if you're no contact, obviously, then they're just going to leave you alone as you've requested. That's real change. But not if they're doing it just to get you, or if you say, No, I'm not coming back. And then they're like, F you anyway. You stupid. B, I've never loved you anyway. Well, there you go. So it's a bit of a test, but take the relationship off the table is probably one of the two best pieces of advice that I've ever received from illness.

Yeah, that's awesome. That's an awesome one. Yeah, absolutely. And I think you're exactly right. Like most people will start to see that they don't go change just for the. And a lot of it does come just firing right back at you. The last question I had for you was, what are some common misconceptions about trauma bonds that you hear and see?

Ooh, Like I've been asked that one before. I think, I mean, a common misconception is that the people who fall into trauma bonds are weak. Mm-hmm. , which is an interesting take, and I shared that. Past tense because I think that we feel weak when we're in it like that. I can't leave, but I know I need to. You feel like you're not strong enough.

But the reality is victims are, generally speaking incredibly strong. And part of that misconception about whether you're weak or strong, is that weakness or strength has anything to do with it. That education or socioeconomic background or none of that has anything to do with it. Because I've done some research into, as an example, who is not susceptible to a trauma bond.

Is there anyone on earth that would fit some kind of personality or criteria that is just not. And the answer is yes. There are two types of people that absolutely cannot, and that is psychopaths and socio. So if you're not one of those two things, you can hop right off that high horse because everyone is susceptible to a trauma bond.

People with a secure attachment style truly secure are slightly less likely to people with strong boundaries are less likely to, but not like immune to it. So this idea that you can only fall into a trauma bond if you're too stupid, too weak, or grew up with any type of trauma around you or experiencing trauma is the reason.

That's completely wrong. We aren't stupid and there's chemical reasons. I mean, the primary part of it is it is a love addiction. It isn't just like, Oh, I can't leave him. You are physically addicted, chemically to the ups and downs. The dopamine and oxytocin and serotonin are all over the place. And you can't just get the those hits of chemical anywhere else.

You can only get them from that person. You become addicted and that's the point. You start in your trauma Von, and everything is amazing and wonderful and whirlwind romance, and you are just living on cloud nine with all the domine in the world and then they start taking it away. But it was so much, so fast.

That you love it. You live and breathe for it. You become so dependent on it, and then they take it away. So you start doing things to try to get it back, and as they take away more and more, you need, not want, need those hits again. So you constantly feel like you can't leave. So it's not. Purely emotional and there's nothing wrong with you.

You need the no contact and you need the space to stop the physical feeling. You know, unless you've been through it, it's hard to even explain, but like that physical need for them versus the emotional sadness and grief and all that that you're feeling, it's kind of two different things. That physical desperation where like your body hurts and your chest is pounding and you're sweating and crying.

That is the chemical side of it. In my. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you had this in your life where you felt like no one really was understanding what you were going through because they haven't lived that experience or have had those emotions. Mm-hmm. , what would you say to somebody that, like, say they had a lot of people that want to support them, but didn't understand and like didn't understand what it meant to support them, what advice would you give them on like, how can you educate people that don't understand?

Honestly, I get that question every so often, and the reality is it is really hard and I put myself in the shoes of a person who's watching their friend or family member go back to a dangerous or abusive situation repeatedly, and you're like, Man, I've said all the things. I've explained it. They even seem to get it.

But now it's just a choice. They just keep going back. There's nothing I can do. I get it. I really understand that emotional, like I've given up on you sort of feeling, and you're entitled to do that. Like if I wanna walk away from someone because I can't be emotionally invested in their abusive relationship anymore, then that's life.

But ideally, protect your own peace. Don't give anyone more than you can give emotionally or other. But how to best support someone is not to say, Come on Tracy. He's such an a-hole. You know better. All you're doing is giving her or him more shame. And that is the reason that we stay. We feel stupid. It's the reason we don't tell people.

So what you should be doing is saying, I support you and I'm sorry for what you're going through. And when you're ready, I'm here for. Now if you want them to stop talking about it, you can politely say, Unfortunately, I can't be the person you come to anymore when you wanna vent, but when you're ready to leave, I will be here.

That's okay. As a victim of this, that would've crushed me. But sometimes other people need to walk away and protect themselves. But to really be supportive is to say, I love you. You are better than. And, and help them find self-love, not by just saying, Come on, you're beautiful. Come on, you'll find someone.

I mean like genuine, real building self-love and showing them ways that they are of value in the world outside of this person. So stick by them in a way that you can cope with. But being supportive is honestly just about listening and saying, I'm here for you when you're ready. Yeah. Thank you for that.

Can you tell us how people can find. Yes, my sort of, I guess, biggest platform is on TikTok. So stronger than before. Stronger than before, Coach on Instagram and stronger than before on Facebook and YouTube. My website is stronger than before.ca. Dot com.ca, and that's where you can find access to my trauma bond recovery course.

My journals, I have a trauma bond recovery guide, which is a freebie, so people can download that to kind of read through the 12 steps, and it'll give you a bit of information on each of the 12 steps. The course is a expanded version of that, of course. As well as book sessions for people that wanna talk with me.

But definitely check out my social media channels and at, you know, at least follow and learn what I know and see if that'll help you break your trauma bonds and heal from it. You know, even people who've broken their trauma bond still get a lot out of watching some of this content and really being able to do the rebuild aspect of it as well.

Awesome. Thank you so much for being here, and I'll make sure to put all your note, all your links in the show notes so people can find you. Wonderful. Thanks so much.