070 Navigating life with Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID)

In this episode we interview Dr. Adrian on her journey navigating dissociative identity disorder (DID). She shares with us everything there is to learn about DID: the causes, treatments, living and communicating with her parts and the ways it affects her life.
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Adrian A. Fletcher, Psy.D., M.A., is a licensed psychologist, author, and survivor with lived experience of Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) formerly known as Multiple Personality Disorder. She also uses the name Adrienne & Co. System to reflect a DID system of 22+ parts. She is a trafficking and ritual abuse survivor. A passionate mental health warrior, she stepped out publicly in 2021 to challenge the stigma around DID and trauma. She and her parts are here to bring hope, love, and inspiration to the world by sharing their lived and professional experience with mental health. She and her parts are the proud authors of One Soul, Multiple Expressions: Poems by the Parts, former podcast hosts of Braving the Way with Dr. Fletch, and hosts of an international mentorship program for people living with DID. They have been featured in the Los Angeles Times and USA Today. They have also had their work published by The American Psychiatric Association, The National Alliance on Mental Illness, Psychology Today, and This Is My Brave. They are currently writing a book for people with DID through New Harbinger publications with the love of their life, Mabel Rose, called The Experiential Toolbox for DID, which will be released in 2025.

Follow Adrienne and her parts on instagram @adrienneandco
Support her work via her poetry book: https://www.amazon.com/One-Soul-Multiple-Expressions-POEMS/dp/B0BLG6SWS6

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Extreme trauma has happened to me. I live with ritual abuse and trafficking. We can switch in and out of different parts to take care of different things. I'm gonna choose to keep moving forward.

SPEAKER_01: 0:18

Hi guys, Jenica here from Multispective and I'm here to share with you a new episode for an interview with Adrienne. She talks about DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder. She talks about it through her own experience, but she's also a psychologist and has studied this quite extensively and is here to share the very, very informative educational side of it. So any questions that you might have regarding this condition, this is a great episode for you. If you potentially could be thinking that maybe you might have it or you might know someone that might be having it, this is the episode for you. because you'll get all the information that you need. So listen in. Your support is so important to us. It's the reason for why we get up every day and continue to do this for you. So if there's any topics that you would like to hear more about, feel free to drop a comment and let us know. Hope you enjoy the episode. Adrienne, welcome to Multispective. I am so excited to have you here and have you share your story with us on air. How are you feeling?

SPEAKER_00: 1:22

I'm unsure, actually. It's been a while since I've done some podcasting. I have one of my own. I'm on a break from it. But whenever I say yes to do anything, because I live with DID, I'm always hesitant and skeptical at the beginning until I warm up and feel comfortable. Unfortunately, there's been a lot of exploitation by the media regarding my condition. So certain things I've not always felt safe to do. So I'll do my best.

SPEAKER_01: 1:47

Yeah, especially when it comes to things like mental health, like the most important thing is that that is being protected, right? Right. And so if you feel at any point like vulnerable, some people are taking advantage of it, then, you know, that that's that ultimately, like, that's what your story is about. That's what you're here for. And if that's kind of being compromised, then like, what's the point of it all? Right. But yeah, but I really do appreciate like you're sitting here and sharing this, you know, it's not an easy story to share. It comes with a lot of baggage, a lot of background, you know, story as well. So, you know, having to delve into it in itself is is can be quite challenging for an individual's So you being at this place today, it's very brave of you. You mentioned DID. Our listeners may not know what this is. I've never done any episodes on this before. So can you just give us a little bit of context on what that is?

SPEAKER_00: 2:36

Dissociative identity disorder is what used to be known as multiple personality disorder. It's a highly misunderstood mental health condition. About one to three percent of the population live with dissociative identity disorder. It was changed from multiple personality disorder to DID in 1994 by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. So we have come a little ways, but it's still highly stigmatized and misunderstood. Most people have a Hollywood picture in their mind about what multiple personality disorder is. order is, and that's really unfortunate for those of us that live with it because we're made out to be dangerous and criminals or unsafe or that we don't exist at all. I can't say the numbers exactly because I'm not sure, but I would guess that about 50% of mental health practitioners still do not believe in the condition. So people are missing the diagnosis completely. People are being treated for other conditions that they actually don't meet criteria for. It's really messy. And I stepped out publicly in 2021 to try to bring some light and awareness to a very difficult topic.

SPEAKER_01: 3:43

Right. And what actually does it look like for people that may not know what it is?

SPEAKER_00: 3:49

Yeah, so it's unlikely that people are going to be able to see it. It's known as the hidden condition, and it's caused by extreme and ongoing pervasive trauma, usually in childhood before the age of nine. So a lot of people live with trauma. A lot of people live with post-traumatic stress disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder is part of DID. If you have DID, you have PTSD because it's a trauma-based disorder, pretty much. And people don't know that other people have it. It's really hidden. So we have doctors and surgeons that live with this condition and people that are on disability because they're unable to work. So there's a range of functioning that comes along with having the condition. Basically, what it is, is there's a trauma that happens in young in young childhood. And the brain does a brilliant thing of dissociating out that trauma. Most people do not get diagnosed with DID until they're around 37, 38 years old. So they live with the condition without knowing it. Usually there's a life triggering event that sort of brings the parts or the identities forward, but they've been there the whole time. So I'm a person that lives with over 22 different identities and they have different names, ages, genders, characteristics. They have different Um, and unless somebody is really attuned to me, they're not going to see me switch in between parts, but my parts do have different preferences. They dress differently. They think differently. Um, so, you know, all parts are different. So some have the cognitive ability of a child and some have the cognitive ability of an adult. And that's where it's been unfortunately exploited in the media because they want to show this dramatic change or personality shift when it's really subtle. It's really

SPEAKER_01: 5:38

subtle.

SPEAKER_00: 5:38

And it's not like the parts feel safe to come forward. I come forward and say, hi, I'm so-and-so to a person who's known me even 20 years of my life. The parts really only come out if there's a major trigger happening or if they feel safe around certain people.

SPEAKER_01: 5:55

Right. Okay. That makes sense. Is it possible that certain personalities also have certain skill sets that maybe others wouldn't have? For example, lefty versus righty or having language abilities and that kind of stuff too

SPEAKER_00: 6:07

yes yeah so the new language instead of saying personalities we say parts or identities all people living with DID will refer to them or alters will refer to their altered parts or identities in a different way so all of us living with DID have a preferred language that we use we're trying to move away from personalities because actually DID is not a personality disorder and that's where the public gets confused about that too but yes they do have different skill sets so I have like a 15 year old part named Becky and she's an incredible partner If Becky is not around, I do not have that skill set. I cannot just sit down and draw cartoons, but she can. So yeah, it's really different. And those skill sets needed to develop because they really helped us survive the trauma that we were experiencing at the time.

SPEAKER_01: 6:53

Right. That makes sense. This actually reminds me of a book that I once read called The Minds of Billy Milligan.

SPEAKER_00: 7:01

Okay. Yeah. Billy Milligan is a highly controversial D&D case, if you will. I probably won't weigh too much in on that particular case. And even in the field of psychology, I'm trying to move away from referring to human beings as cases. Because unfortunately, again, with the stigma and how mental health professionals staff and treat their clients, we're humans with a story. So I'm trying to stay away from the word case.

SPEAKER_01: 7:30

Right. Could Would you mind telling us a little bit about some of the different kinds of traumas that children can experience that can lead to it? And if you're comfortable to share a little bit about yours as well?

SPEAKER_00: 7:42

Yeah, so like I said before, people don't develop DID because life was easy. There's usually an ongoing pervasive amount of harm and neglect and physical and sexual abuse that are occurring. Obviously, when I'm speaking, I can't speak for everybody that's living with DID, but children who are neglected and abused and mistreated, sexual abuse is a high indicator for those with DID. It's usually horrific and grotesque in nature, and like I said, it's ongoing and pervasive. live with ritual abuse and trafficking. So I was a victim of, um, very unfortunate crimes that my father committed when I was a child. So he sold me to other men, um, and then was also engaged in different types of harmful rings, um, organized crime, basically, um, and committee acts of, of ritual abuse and to go into detail with, cause I just don't feel safe to disclose that it's still a risk to talk about ritual abuse. Um, There's a lot of controversy around that topic. Most people deny that it exists. But for those of us that have that history, disclosing aspects of what happens can be painful and harmful to me later post-interview. But what I will say is usually extreme and torture practices that are used, things like injections and electric shock to get children to comply with the abuse.

SPEAKER_01: 9:06

And

SPEAKER_00: 9:06

they can force children to dissociate during that time as well so that they don't remember. So one of the hardest aspects of living with DID is what's called dissociative amnesia, but we needed to have that amnesia when we were experiencing the trauma that we were experiencing.

SPEAKER_01: 9:23

What actually is dissociative amnesia?

SPEAKER_00: 9:26

It's basically memory loss and dissociative memory loss. But what's happening for people that live with DID is you're switching in and out of parts and those parts don't all hold the same memories. So when you're going through the healing process, you have parts that are holding different things. So there are parts that are there for like everyday living. There are parts that are trauma holders that are holding the most horrific aspects of the story. And all of those parts need to communicate eventually in order to heal and process through the trauma and move through it. It's a real mind. Um, I don't know if it's okay to swear in this podcast, but it's really, it's a real mind fuckery because we don't want to believe the things that have happened to us. We have parts inside of us kind of explaining what happened and where we living it and body memories and flashbacks and all kinds of things. And so when the world denies that these, that either DID exists or that ritual abuse exists, we already struggle with denying our own reality. Right. Part of the healing process is coming to terms with what happened. into us so that we can move forward in our lives and it's not easy

SPEAKER_01: 10:30

yeah yeah um do you feel like for you or for a lot of them it's important to find someone that can um support or uh agree and confirm what had happened in childhood for a person to be able to sort of start that healing or that therapy process do you think that that's important aspect of it

SPEAKER_00: 10:50

What's most important is finding a trauma-informed professional that can hold the space without judgment and without denying somebody else's reality. No other person can deny or can confirm what happened to us. Only our abusers and ourselves know what happened. But when you get a competent clinician that can hold the space for trauma-informed care and they're not questioning the survivor, because unfortunately there's a lot of that that happens, because a lot of this doesn't make sense to prevent. providers, so they almost grill and treat you like 2020 Barbara Walters when you're coming in for an intake, which is not what we need because that scares parts away. Actually, most professionals are doing their intake assessments for therapy inaccurately because they're sitting down and trying to get their whole life story in an hour and a half, not realizing that when you're dealing with somebody with complex trauma, you're likely going to scare them away. You're going too deep too fast. You need to build the relationship and rapport before you start asking all kinds of questions about trauma. Right. with D.I.D., it'll take them years to even realize they have D.I.D. And so if they're even being asked about trauma in the therapy room, a lot of them are going to say they don't have any. They're coming in with other symptoms. They're coming in with anxiety, depression, relationship issues, you know, maybe problems with work or school. They're not coming in specifically for D.I.D. unless they're really aware already, which with more awareness out there, that is happening for some people. But it's hidden for a reason. Needed to be hidden in order for Right.

SPEAKER_01: 12:23

Yeah, I mean, that makes total sense. personalities in a sense.

SPEAKER_00: 12:53

Yeah. How do I even want to describe that? I guess I'd have to backtrack and just start with awareness of when I came to be aware of my parts, because usually people start having all other kinds of issues before they're aware that they have parts. Some people may be experiencing intrusive thoughts, flashbacks, fragments of memories, and then they hear voices in their head, which is different than hearing voices in the illness, such as schizophrenia. The voices for those of us that live with DID, those voices are like internal and voices in schizophrenia tend to be external. So there's a difference there. It's not auditory hallucinations. They're actually parts inside talking to us. In 2018, when my mom passed away, I had been drinking a lot of alcohol to cope with her deaths. And I had stopped drinking completely and was really working therapy. And a lot of my parts started to come forward in the therapy room. I could start to have more access to them because they were talking to me. But they were showing up long before 2018. It was told to me 2012 that I lived with DID. I myself didn't believe it. I'm a psychologist and what I knew to be true about DID was not happening for me because I was mistrained and misinformed just like everybody else. So it was a hard to accept. I started to get my system of parts after my mom died and it's been hypothesized that her death gave my system of parts, we call it the system of parts, permission to come forward after her death because there was just so much that needed to be kept hidden in order for me to to keep living. But I also had sort of a, I don't know if I want to call it a breakdown or an illness in 2016, where I really fell apart and nobody knew what was wrong with me. They thought it was major depressive disorder with psychosis. I needed to stop working. I went to the hospital. I was dangerously suicidal. And what had ended up happening was some of the parts inside got triggered by a stalker, which created an incredible amount of fear in my nervous system. And those parts started to come forward, but nobody knew what was happening for me at that time. So there's a lot of misdiagnoses going around at that time and a lot of wrong medications that were making me ill. But the partner that I had been with for several years had always known there was something different. He would describe it as like, there's angry Adrian, or there's this Adrian, there's oblivious this. So he had some awareness that there was something going on, you know, even when we, and looking back now at my life, I can see it more showing up where it was showing up. Nobody else had been aware of it at that time.

SPEAKER_01: 15:35

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 15:36

Was amnesia happening as well at this point for you? Well, yeah, because when you're not aware of all of your parts, you have more amnesia. So they switch in and out without your awareness.

SPEAKER_01: 15:46

Right. Yeah. So what was that experience like? Yeah,

SPEAKER_00: 15:49

switching. It would just be like odd things. Like you'd find things in your closet that you don't remember buying. Or for me, for a long time, there would be credit card bills coming in for things that I had no recollection of buying. And I don't just mean like a$45 to$500 credit card bill. I'm talking thousands of dollars. Like at one point, a$17,000 credit card bill because parts were just spending money. Not thinking they were doing anything wrong, but just spending a lot of money.

SPEAKER_01: 16:21

Right. That's really interesting.

SPEAKER_00: 16:23

Yeah. So people usually have some oddities that happen that they can't put their finger on. So they between parts usually when that's happening um one time i was in a nail salon and somebody came up to me and they were so excited to see me no idea who they were but apparently one of my other parts had been talking to that person on and off in the nail salon for like a year so you know and we learn ways to over overcompensate for those gaps in time people with did are brilliant at being able to risk their parts and their symptoms because you sort of have to for survival

SPEAKER_02: 16:59

What

SPEAKER_01: 17:03

are some common kinds of parts that generally tend to form for children that have gone through some kind of traumas? Have you noticed any common threads?

UNKNOWN: 17:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 17:14

Yeah, so there's like, and again, it's going to be so different for each person living with DID and the language they use. So I'm always real mindful and try to be respectful to all people in the DID community because we each have a different experience. But there's usually a group of trauma holding parts. So those are the parts that are holding those memories. Those are the ones that tend to struggle the most with like emotion regulation and body memories, somatic memories that are stored in the body. There's creative. arts that you know can do art and music type of things and that's just a way of coping and having an outlet there's some that are like um it's kind of hard to explain. I'm not exactly sure how to explain it, but like fictive parts, parts that are named after characters that are sort of just associative parts that come in and out, but they don't necessarily take control of the full body because there are parts that take full control of the body. Like I said, they dress differently and things like that. There's parts that take care of responsibilities, you know? So if you think about a human being, right? Like we all have to like take care of our hygiene and go to the grocery store and pay our bills or go to work or whatever, DID is kind of brilliant because you have different parts that can handle different responsibilities. So if you have a part that primarily takes care of all the housekeeping responsibilities and the rest of the parts get a break during that time and where somebody might be exhausted, we can switch in and out of different parts to take care of different things. And it's kind of like a superpower. As difficult as the trauma was that led to the development of DID, it does have its strengths. People always tell me I'm one of the strongest people that they've ever met and I can do more than most people can do. I don't think I'm special. I think unfortunately I've had this trauma that led to all the development of all of these different parts that keep me going and they can switch in and take care of different responsibilities and things like that. They're all sort of different. There's like protector parts, trauma holding parts. Protector parts tend to be very hypervigilant. They're scanning for threats all the time. They're looking to see who is safe, who's not safe. They tend to be a little bit more assertive. For some people living with DID, those parts can be aggressive. There's introject parts, which are parts that can take on the characteristics of those who have harmed us. So I have a part that's a lot like my mom. She was just, she could be really cruel with her words. And I have a part that sort of, it's called an introject, has kind of taken on some of the sides of my mom. And most people can relate to that, even if they don't live with DID, but it just tends to be more fragmented and more severe when you have this big separation between parts living in one body.

SPEAKER_01: 19:54

Right. Is it possible that two parts can kind of be at the forefront at the same time working together?

SPEAKER_00: 20:01

Yeah. So that's called like blended. You can be kind of blended and kind of have two parts working together to take care of different things.

SPEAKER_01: 20:11

Wow. Now, how does sort of conflict of interest work if there's two or three or different multiple different parts that are disagreeing with each other? Or say you're in a relationship and you're like, well, this person likes this one and that person doesn't like, how would you manage that?

SPEAKER_00: 20:25

Yeah, it's exhausting. And it's called getting system agreement between the parts. So there's a lot of if you think about it just in life, right? Even to travel somewhere or to date somebody or to choose to take a class, it all needs to be negotiated. And that comes later in the healing journey for many people living with DID, just even getting access to any of their parts and lowering some of that dissociative amnesia takes a while. But once you kind of know your DID system of parts, you can have parts meetings and delegate responsibilities and you have to negotiate the disagreements. And it's not easy. And when you have parts and conflicts for a long time, that's usually when I don't feel good. If I can't get them all to agree to something, then I'm struggling. It does not feel good on the outside. It might just look like I'm tired or I'm depressed because it can take them a while to get a decision. Would you mind? Even for food choices, it's ridiculous. Trying to get the system of parts to eat mindfully and healthily but not restricting them. There are kid parts that love animal crackers, for example. I don't want to eat animal crackers every day of my life but you have to negotiate when you have many parts living inside of you because they're there because they never got needs met when I was younger and they have to grow up and they have to integrate in and we have to work as a team so if I denied myself animal crackers well I'm essentially denying a five-year-old child animal crackers for a snack and if you think about it it's not really fair right so a lot of negotiation everything from food to career to

SPEAKER_01: 21:58

friends

SPEAKER_00: 21:59

and you know dealing with family and all that Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:03

How much of like of your day would you say goes into sort of negotiating and communicating?

SPEAKER_00: 22:08

Oh, God, I don't think anyone has ever asked me that question. I mean, it could be, it's a lot. I mean, it's a lot because there's a lot of decisions that need to be made in a day. Usually it's better. So if we have a couple of parts that do work related things, you know, then, then it's like negotiated at work time. Um, but just everyday living, um, It's a lot. I would say it's probably, it's got to be anywhere from 75 to 85% of my day is communicating, checking inside. And when I'm really mindful, I'm really good at it. But there are times it's just exhausting, just don't feel like it. But if you don't check in on your parts, and you don't know what's happening, then you're also not going to feel good. And it slows you down and sets you back and it's a whole thing.

SPEAKER_01: 22:56

Right. So do you have any, any parts that are the dominant parts that generally Yeah, kind of. I went through a

SPEAKER_00: 23:11

very intense experience about a year ago with a fusion of one of my main parts. Her name was Nancy and she was really the face of Dr. Fletcher. It's so hard for people to understand. I know that when I talk about it out loud, it sounds absolutely effing crazy, but it's brilliant in its design. So she was sort of the main face of the group. my life and a perfectionist like a Martha Stewart cooked clean could manage you know running a successful psychotherapy practice I mean just the she was incredible she was like a superwoman she was my main identity for a long time and she fused and she needed to because I was getting healthier and healthier and so now the parts are kind of scrambling to figure out who's in the lead because I have some that just want nothing to do with being in the front face of my life I have some that want to stay hidden for a long time. And so it's kind of in negotiation right now. But you asked earlier about a team. So there used to be two at the front. It always used to be Nancy, who was like 22, but brilliant. She was like the doctor of the group. And then age 17 has been around since the beginning. And she's sort of life of the party. Everybody loves that part. She's fun. She's caring. She has a big heart. But the two of them were the ones that pretty much ran my life for a really long time, kept me safe, but also kept me having fun. It was a good balance between the two. And then that part now has been really lost since that fusion. Actually, the whole system has. It's been a really hard experience. And it's kind of hard to capture with words because most people don't get it.

SPEAKER_01: 24:47

Fusion. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

SPEAKER_00: 24:50

Yeah, I absolutely hate the term. It's in the research. It's an old term. I think they even used it back when they were dealing with multiple personalities. But basically, when there's been extreme trauma, in order to heal from that, you need to do the work necessary But all of those parts are holding something different. So like I said, some just take care of daily responsibilities. Some are holding the trauma. In order for me to be well, I need to process the trauma. But we can't go in and do that. You know, I started the healing journey in 2012. It's 2024. And I still have a fair way to go. It's just extreme trauma. You can't just be talking about that and talking doesn't really heal it. It's the experiential treatment modalities that really heal trauma. But, you know, it's been just kind of a long journey. journey navigating all of that. And so fusion is like when a part goes away, but it's hard to explain because people will be like, well, she'll always be a part of you. But honestly, it's like the dying off of a part. And if you talk to people with DID about that, that's terrifying. Basically, you're telling people, oh my God, eventually at one point I'm going to experience a fusion and I'm going to lose a very important part of me that's been helping me survive. So it's not something that can be rushed. It's basically the part is able to, it's no longer needed for what it needed to do so that part of me that fuse was a big denial part would deny the reality of my childhood things that have happened to me things that are happening in my marriage she was a perfectionistic denial part that needed that needed to be there in order for me to survive so that i wasn't constantly reliving the trauma um and eventually she she just started to slowly integrate over time so losing more and more access to her no again no longer needed in my life in the ways that she was needed and the fuse that part became very suicidal and I knew better than to go to the hospital I'm not saying people shouldn't go to the hospital if they are if they need to do that but for me what I was experiencing was it was a part that was dying off so I had to learn how to keep myself safe while that part was kind of going through its integrative experience which wasn't pretty and you know freaking out again it's really hard to explain this to people because basically what I'm saying is to people right extreme trauma has happened to me as a result of that extreme trauma my brain basically segmented off and developed these different parts that have their own you know thoughts ages attitudes behaviors characteristics sometimes allergies medical ailments and they all live within me and I'm a psychologist and I'm coming forward in the world and telling people about this illness that many people live with but because it's been so stigmatized by Hollywood and the mental health field it sounds absolutely crazy to people either it sounds crazy to people or fascinating to people and both do that injustice, right? Right. So, yeah, fusion is basically when a part, the story of the part has been processed. We understand why it's there. It can either be assigned a new role to keep the person living or it needs to fade off and basically go away. But the therapists of the world are thinking that in order to treat DID, they need to fuse all the parts. Well, that's incredibly dangerous. You're dealing with a highly sophisticated brain that can segment off and develop those parts. You rush to fuse those, you're going to make your client really sick and possibly put them at risk for this.

SPEAKER_02: 28:09

It has to be a slow, gradual

SPEAKER_00: 28:11

process. It's a slow, gradual process. Even with all the work I've done in my world and in my healing, I wasn't ready for that, but I had to face it. I knew what to do. I also have the training and the education. Unfortunately, because the providers are lacking the appropriate competency to treat the disorder, I've had to learn how to also be my own doctor at times. I do have treatment professionals on my team And most people don't have that. They don't have the training and the education that I have to help themselves. It's really the lack of care and the lack of training is really quite horrific. And that's why I'm, you know, one of the ones willing to come forward, but it's not easy.

SPEAKER_01: 28:48

Right. Yeah, no, I definitely do appreciate it. I think that sharing this is going to make it so much more understandable. And maybe even like people that might be experiencing something similar, not really have a name for it, might listen to this and say, hey, like there is this pasta And then, you know, necessarily seek the right resources for it. So, you know, it's really important. If not fusion, what are other methods that this can be sort of treated? Or, yeah, what are some other methods of treatment?

SPEAKER_00: 29:20

Yeah, well, it's usually I always remind clinicians that if they have a client with DID or they suspect it, you really want to ask their client, what is the goal? Because for many, it could be just like learning new coping skills and how to manage life with parts. it might be increasing system communication. So for parts to communicate more effectively and then live with functional multiplicity, which is basically what I live with, but we don't love that term. And it just sounds ridiculous, functional multiplicity. It's just the language sometimes still needs to be adjusted. But I think it's about the goal, what people are looking for. Do they want more coping skills? Do they want a better relationship with their partner at home? Do they want more system communication? There are some people that absolutely seek integration and fusion, and that's fine. I just caution the therapists of the world to slow that process down because if you do it too quickly, you're going to hurt somebody.

SPEAKER_01: 30:08

Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00: 30:12

And yeah, you asked about other treatment modalities. Experiential treatments are known to be the most effective for people living with DID because the cognitive talking doesn't really get us anywhere. But younger parts might prefer art therapy or equine therapy or going to support groups, being in community. And I always remind people because therapy is outrageously expensive When you have to treat DID, the research says that on average, people living with DID will spend 10 years in psychotherapy. There are so many other and better ways to get help. It's just we have to think outside of the box and it's not always going to be therapy. And unfortunately, a lot of people with DID have been harmed by the therapeutic world. So we need to start talking about other modalities that can help them outside the therapy office.

SPEAKER_01: 30:56

And so I can imagine a practitioner as well would have to be very well versed in many different styles of therapy. different modalities in order to be able to sort of help someone because just one is not going to work all the time.

SPEAKER_00: 31:08

Right. Yes, correct. Yeah. And some parts won't come forward at all for a long time in there because they might not feel safe. But if you have like, I would tell clinicians, you don't need to overthink this. If you have some crayons and some paper in your office, some fidget things that little parts can play with, you're more likely to see if a part will come forward, you know, but you got to get out of your head and you got to put the clipboard down, you know, put on some music, do some art with your client, talk about animals Let them have their pets come in. You've got to really be able to think outside the box because cognitive behavioral therapy is not going to cut it for DID.

SPEAKER_01: 31:42

Yeah, that's really interesting. And how much of this requires the patient to revisit their trauma? Is that an important part of it?

SPEAKER_00: 31:52

It is, and it's really hard because the more you get closer to the trauma and the story, the more those parts get overwhelmed and they want to quit therapy or run away because you're getting too close. You're getting too close to the secrets that have been hidden for so long and needed to be hidden for safety and survival, which is why a lot of people can't disclose the aspects of ritual abuse because there are still people out there committing those crimes and they tend to come after people who are disclosing the secrets, right? So it's scary. The trauma processing is necessary to decrease the symptoms to improve functioning in life and that sucks because it's hard work to do but you have to before you can even dip into the trauma you've got to help the client build like resources and coping skills first you know like even assertiveness with communication or grounding skills at home because you start dipping into that trauma that's heavy that literally makes people sick right like flashbacks body memories throwing up you need your client to have the supportive tools in place to to carry themselves through going through the thick of the

SPEAKER_01: 32:56

trauma.

SPEAKER_00: 32:56

And going through the thick of the trauma, just talking about it usually isn't effective either, but a more experiential, somatic-based event, such as a VR, which is something I'm trained in, or somatic experiencing, which helps not only address the cognitive aspects, but the symptoms in the body as well.

SPEAKER_01: 33:14

Right, that makes sense. Now, I've done some episodes before with people who've gone through trauma in their lives and gone through therapy, and I've actually been taught to sort of be in the experience and change that dialogue, change that narrative. So now you have control over how you want this situation to look. And so some of them have actually come out and said, you know, I went into that moment and I actually said, stop to the perpetrator. And I turned that whole thing around and that was quite cathartic for the individual. Is that something that is also done sometimes?

UNKNOWN: 33:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 34:31

I mean, that can be helpful for some people and it can be emotionally explosive for others. It's all going to look different depending on where the person's at in their healing and what they're ready for. So even for me, like anger release work was part of my healing, but I couldn't tap into that anger or do anger release work in a safe way until I was ready for it, until I had parts ready for it. And then I was able to go to a smash room and get instructions from a therapist about like what to do and how to do it and how to help the parts, like listen to music and do it in a safe and contained way. But if somebody had presented me with anger release work five years earlier, I wouldn't have been able to do it. So it's really gonna depend on your client living with trauma and then those of us who live with DID what the parts are ready for.

SPEAKER_01: 35:12

That's really interesting. You

SPEAKER_00: 35:15

also need a collaborative therapist when you have somebody working alongside DID because it can't be a power differential. Those of us who live with DID have never had our own sense of power as children. It was taken from us. So when we get authority figures that are, you know, by nature, therapists are authority, but that dynamic in a therapy room does not work with DID. You have to be able to be collaborative. If you want your client to do art, you better be sitting on the floor doing art with them. It has to be like an equal playing field and you need to be willing to disclose some aspects of your life so that the person living with DID feels safe to trust you. Most therapists are blank slates and they don't engage or self-disclose anything. They're likely not ever going to be able to build rapport with somebody with DID or even be successful in

SPEAKER_02: 35:59

treatment. Can

SPEAKER_01: 36:01

you you walk me through your process of therapy from the very beginning, the very first time you sought it out and to where you are now?

SPEAKER_00: 36:09

Oh, goodness. Very first time I saw it. Well, I would say the very first time I saw it was when I was in graduate school because I was having a hard time adjusting from the East Coast to Arizona. And I wasn't a fan of the program. And so like, I started a little bit of like, just talk therapy. And then I left. So no diagnosis of anything then. And then in 2012, I think I was becoming a resident around that time, postdoctoral psychology resident, I wanted to, you know, be a really awesome therapist. And to be a really awesome therapist, you got to work on your shit. So I went to therapy, and started to me MDR and a sexual assault in college was being processed. And By doing the EMDR with me too early, it opened up a whole bunch of stuff from childhood, but I was not ready to look at it. And she mentioned DID because a different part of me had shown up. And I was like, this therapist does not know what she's talking about. I do not have DID. But deep down, I think I might have known, but I wasn't ready for it. I'm not sure. I left that therapist, started with a new trauma therapist who was delightful for a long time. She missed the DID completely. And the identity that I was talking to you about earlier, Nancy, the one that was primarily in the lead of my my life, she was primarily the one who was going to therapy. So the other parts The other part, age, that I mentioned, 17, would show up occasionally, but that therapist never picked it up. And I wasn't aware of it yet. And then when I got really sick, I went to an inpatient unit. They didn't know what was wrong with me. And then I went to a residential treatment facility. They didn't know what was happening. I had a wonderful psychiatrist at the time that was basically like, just take this medicine for a little while. We'll reevaluate. Really don't think this is psychosis, but she really just wasn't sure exactly what it was. I kind of had to read the my life from there. And then in 2018, I started to deal more with the reality of the DID because my partner at the time and the therapists I was seeing and me, we could all put it together. And I was finally ready to believe it and accept it. And then I started to work with my parts. Actually, during the pandemic, when everything was shut down, I spent 2020 really getting to know my system, doing a lot of art, doing a lot of stuff at home, using the time to try to do what I could. But I've done so much therapy, I wouldn't even know where to like a timeline, but I've done EMDR, equine therapy, six to seven trauma healing intensives that do experiential work, um, in a group setting, psychodrama, um, um, Yeah, equine, REMDR, intensive, residential. I mean, it's been, it's cost me, I think that's the scariest part, about a million to a million and a half dollars in treatment from 2012 to now. It's insanity. And most people don't have that kind of money. And I didn't either. I just worked my ass off to pay for my treatment that I was doing. But it's outrageously expensive. And most people don't have that, which is why we need to change a lot of things. And people need to stop getting the message that they need all this therapy there. is a piece of it but you just want to feel better when you have DID and your life you know it's so overwhelming you do whatever you can but we need to make services more accessible for people that can't afford it it's not fair you know and I'm not necessarily a social justice warrior or anything but I'll have you know having been on both sides as the patient and the practitioner and meeting people in the DID community from all different walks of life we have a real problem with stigma and access to care.

SPEAKER_01: 39:42

It's so true. I mean, what you say, because I mean, especially you mentioned this earlier, some, for some people, it can be really debilitating. It's like not impossible to hold a job for, for a long period of time. So it's like, if you're not able to work and be in the right state of mind to be able to work and have an income, well then how does it all work? Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's really heartbreaking. Yeah. Yeah. Could you tell me a little bit more about your communication with your parts? In the very early stages, did you find that journaling, writing down or drawing arts would be a way to kind of communicate with the different parts? Or is it sort of just a conversation that you have

SPEAKER_00: 40:25

verbally? Yeah, journaling and art is a huge part of it. And actually, sorry, I jump around a lot because I'm trying to cover so much ground. I know that was part of the other question. But yeah, the journaling, they had already been writing kind of notes back and forth, like on my phone and in journals and different pieces of art. And, um, and sometimes I wouldn't like recognize what it was or where it was coming from. And I had this box that was like from high school, probably filled with all kinds of stuff. I can see the different handwritings and things, obviously, except I've been living with parts my whole life. That's the idea. Actually, at my high school yearbook, somebody wrote a note to Nancy, which is one of my other parts, which means that part was around somewhere talking to people, you know, it's just insanity, but But yes, they do communicate back and forth. Drawing and art and journaling back and forth is really good for that. Yes, there's a lot of conversations that happen in my head, but we tend to do better when we write it out or they communicate with each other that way.

SPEAKER_01: 41:23

Right. Has that sort of evolved as well for you?

SPEAKER_00: 41:27

Yes. Yeah. I feel like the 2020, 2021, 2022 was like really smooth and it just became like the normal thing because I've had so many life changes in the last year. It's been kind of harder. Some are less communicative now. Some are scared. There's just been a lot of change and adjustment. But art is one of the best ways to get my system to communicate.

SPEAKER_01: 42:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 42:32

Especially younger parts because they won't communicate in another way.

SPEAKER_01: 42:37

Right. Oh, that's really interesting. What was it like for you when you were able to accept and understand that this diagnosis was the diagnosis? Was it a very relieving kind of experience for you to be like, I finally have a name for this? Like, I understand it now? Or was it nerve wracking?

SPEAKER_00: 42:57

Yeah.

UNKNOWN: 42:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 42:59

it was relieving. It was like, because I just felt off my whole life. Like what is wrong with me? You know, I have like very intense personality shifts and I can be a really intense person and it intimidates a lot of people. And it's not always my intention to intimidate. There are times, yes, I've needed to, to keep people away from me and to stay safe. But it was like, oh, finally, you know, like most people are scared and shocked when they get the diagnosis. For me, I was like, thank God there is something that makes sense of all of this. Right. Um, my childhood, how I felt all these years, all of these, um, all these different things. But then it was like, Oh shit, there was like a moment of relief. And then they're like, Oh my God. And then the more with the reality of like, it's setting in and the work that was going to need to be done in order to just keep moving forward in my life. I mean, that's the exhausting part. Um, and there, I'm not happy every day that I have this. Nobody chooses to have this, you know? Um, There are times I'm more accepting of it than others. But when life is really hard or something gets thrown my way and, you know, it's like 22 of me that has to manage something instead of one, you know, I get angry about it. But I try to remember that it's not necessarily the diagnosis. It's the trauma that happened to me. And I will spend a lifetime recovering from that. And I need to accept that. You know, staying in the role of victim has not served me. And I believe there's a difference between honoring Yes, these terrible things have happened to me. Yes, I have this diagnosis in these parts that I live with. And I'm going to choose no matter how hard this is to keep moving forward because I deserve a good life, but it is up to me to create it.

SPEAKER_01: 44:48

I love that. That's such a good kind of like mentality to sort of have as well. I think, do you feel like the more kind of time you put or distance you put between you and that you're able to sort of experience it? it more like as a third person as opposed to feeling it too close to you?

SPEAKER_00: 45:05

Yeah. I mean, for a while, I think somebody said to me, you know, there's more to your life than DID. And I'm like, but there actually isn't because this is me and there's so many of me. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 45:58

If there's someone here today listening to this and possibly thinking about, okay, this could be me, I could be going through this. What do you have to say to them as to what are the first steps that they can take from today onwards?

SPEAKER_00: 46:28

it or you don't you can still have a great life and it's just learning how to manage whatever symptoms you're having and if you think you're struggling with it like I would look into an infinite mind it's my favorite resource on DID they're a national actually globally now international organization on DID out of Orlando Florida they offer a healing together conference every year you can go in person or watch online they have talks from lived experience everything from lived experience to the clinicians to the research they're a wonderful organization and it's a great place to start if you're curious because you can go on their website look at their books go to their conference read stories of other people who have come forward and see if it fits um you know and you can look up the symptoms and talk to your doctor but most doctors are not going to be well versed in did it's going to be more of finding the did community and feeling if this is something that makes sense or talking to somebody else who might have it that's willing to talk to them um and to not lose hope because again whatever it is it's worth looking into if you're not feeling well and you need to do more research for yourself self-diagnosis is a real thing because people are afraid of this a lot of people don't even want to go get diagnosed if they think that they live with it because of all the stigma you know so usually looking into that main resource which might lead to other connections and other resources would be a good foundation to start

SPEAKER_01: 47:49

with yeah that makes sense and for a person that's listening that could be a supporter a friend a family member a partner what would you be to kind of say to them? What advice can you give to them?

SPEAKER_00: 48:01

I think my biggest advice for the supporters is to be patient and understanding, especially if somebody comes forward and they say that they have DID. You have to understand that there's more than one of them and they may disappear for a while or they may, you know, say things that may not make sense because another part said something different. It's just a lot of patience, a lot of curiosity, a lot of respect and boundary setting if you have to, you know, because I'm not always the easiest person to be in connection with. I disappear for a while. I need to, to regroup. I'm living with all these parts like I can't be available to everybody all of the time so sometimes I have to disappear for a while which offends some people in my life but it's like if you really know me and you know that I'm managing multiple parts behind the scenes just need your patience and kindness and I will circle back when I am ready to but I get if most people can't live in relationship with people like that but just be transparent and then the same thing I would encourage supporters and loved ones to go to an infinite minds website and look into their conference and their resources because they offer help and so to supporters as well.

SPEAKER_01: 49:04

Yeah, that makes so much sense. Final plugins, Adrienne, anything else you'd like to say before we end this episode?

SPEAKER_00: 49:13

Oh goodness, final plugins. The idea is just highly misunderstood. I think the best thing the general public can do is just refrain from making inappropriate comments about multiple personalities. It just doesn't do us justice and it doesn't feel very good to be on the other side of that. I would say regardless of any conditions that you live with if you need help don't be afraid to ask for it and thank you for creating a safe space for me to share a little bit more about my parts in a safe way and then I would just say I have a website and an Instagram so you can follow me at Adrienne and Co on Instagram and I have a little poetry book that my parts wrote that's in revision but you can get that on Amazon and it's called One Soul Multiple Expressions Poems by the Parts and I would just say trigger warning for that just because some of the poems are dark I mean, heavy or graphic in nature.

SPEAKER_01: 50:04

Yeah. Thank you so much for that. I'll definitely put those in the, in the descriptions as well. So yeah, I really appreciate you being here on air with us.

SPEAKER_00: 50:13

Yeah. Thanks. I appreciate the time.

SPEAKER_01: 50:18

If you enjoyed the episode and would like to help support the show, please follow and subscribe. You can rate and review your feedback on any of our platforms listed in the description. I'd like to recognize our guests who are vulnerable and open to share their life experiences with us. Thank you for showing us we are human. Also, a thank you to our team who worked so hard behind the scenes to make it happen.

SPEAKER_02: 50:40

The

SPEAKER_01: 50:42

show would be nothing without you. I'm Jenica, host and writer of the show, and you're listening to... Multispective.