074 Excommunicated From The Mormon Church for speaking her truth

What’s it like growing up in the Mormon Church, only to be excommunicated for following your heart? In this powerful episode of Multispective, Susie opens up about her life inside the LDS Church, the strict expectations she followed and the deep personal conflict that led to her excommunication after an affair.

She shares the emotional toll of losing her community, the challenges of rebuilding her identity, and the lessons she’s learned about faith, self-worth, and finding freedom outside the Church.

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Contact her: https://www.getwellwithsusiebell.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

When I married my husband, what made our marriage strong, the only thing we had in common was the church. We were both very faithful and believed it wholeheartedly. In the temple, women covenant to our husbands, and our husbands covenant to God. I wasn't even worthy enough to covenant to God. I had to covenant to my husband and obey him. And after three years of training with him, and then before you know it, like, he's sexy. You know, he looks good. And one thing leads to another. And I find myself in the bishop's office with so much shame and guilt confessing. I couldn't go to my daughter's wedding. I wasn't permitted into the temple to see her get married. I did not realize it was a cult. I just began to start thinking, is this how God would treat me?

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Suzy. I am so excited to

SPEAKER_02 1:05

have

SPEAKER_00 1:07

you on air with us. How are you doing today? at this point, you'll find people practicing this kind of all over the world. And some may confuse this for religion. Some may argue that, hey, this is not a cult. How can we label it this? So I'm really, really excited to share this on air and sort of like raise awareness on sort of the actual insides of what is actually happening within this. So, you know, you yourself were raised in it. So, you know, hearing it firsthand, I think would be really, really powerful for a list So why don't you start off just telling us a little bit about where your story

SPEAKER_02 2:13

begins. language and translated it into English. And the religion went on for years, and my forefathers were pioneers that supported and sacrificed their lives for the church in the trek to Salt Lake City. So, my great-grandfather, Stillman Pond, had eight children and a wife that he buried on the way to the trek west to Salt Lake City. So, when I speak of Mormonism being at my very roots. It really is. And I was born and raised into it, and my parents were very, very faithful, very committed. And I married in the temple, just as I was told to do, and raised my six children Mormon. And it wasn't until probably around the age of 42, 43, that I began allowing myself for the Right.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Wow. So, I mean, it sounds like, but there is like a really, really strong history of here. Do you know, like, the numbers of, like, how big this is today? The

SPEAKER_02 3:43

church? I could look it up really quick. I could look it up. I've got my iPad here. But millions. Millions.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Yeah, that's the thing. I'd be curious about this because, I mean, I myself have met people here who have practiced this or believe in this. And, you know, Maybe not so religiously practicing it as a knocking on doors and trying to convert, but really, really do believe very strongly in the faith, in the beliefs of it. So I'd be curious to sort of know, or like how many churches there are and how widespread is it? How far outside of the U.S. have they also sort of expanded to? Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Well, I know I have a son who served his mission in a So of course, when the boys in the church are 19, they're sent all over the world to spread the gospel. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00 4:59

imagine

SPEAKER_02 5:03

that. I mean, have you seen the Mormon temples? They're, yeah, like extravagant. Extravagant. And you can only imagine. I mean, it costs billions of dollars to build these temples. But right now, I mean, I would just be really curious to know how many because they are building so many. And the interesting thing about the temples, do you know what goes on in the temples? Not exactly, no. Okay, so marriages are solemnized is what they're called. It's That is the only ordinance done for you in your life, for you, yourself. Every time that you go back to the temple, you are doing temple work in proxy for someone who is dead, who used to live on the earth. So, the purpose of that is to ensure that every person who has ever lived on this earth receives the opportunity to accept the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. as truth, that every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, and that they will be given the opportunity to join the church. And so, it's purported that even Hitler's temple work has been done. So, I mean, when I was a young girl, when I was 12, I started going to the temple, and we would do the ordinance of baptism for the dead in the temple. So, we would do it for and in behalf of someone who had previously died. So, that's why it was called Baptisms for the Dead. But everything we do in the temple is for someone who is no longer living, so that they have the opportunity in the realm that they're in, which we call the, you know, the hereafter or before the judgment, where everyone waits so that they can accept the gospel. So, yeah, because the church and, you know, the interesting thing is that we were told we were Mormon, right? So, our prophets told us we were Mormon. We used to sing songs as little kids about how excited we were to be Mormon, and now the new prophet of the church has decided that he doesn't like the name Mormonism, and he wants people to be called a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So, it's really funny. You'll see this online where the members of the church get really angry for being called Mormon. They have been told it's a nickname and that it's not a nice nickname. But my generation, we were taught that we were Mormon and that we were happy to be Mormon and we should be proud of it. And so that's one of the things that has changed.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

And I wonder whether that's because like the name Mormonism has become slightly tainted and the more people are talking about it and people are coming out. So they just rebrand it, call the LDS and just, you Did they actually make any internal changes as well in terms of what they expect or what they believe or what, you know?

SPEAKER_02 8:35

Yeah, and that's a great question because for the first 42 years of my life, we were always told the church will never change. It is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And if you expect the church to change, do not hold out for it because it will not. And so, for instance, here's a perfect example of how it is changing. We were expected when we went to the temple that we would wear sacred underwear. And this underwear covered like from here, like this, I wouldn't have been able to wear this when I was Mormon. I would have had to like have that covered. But it covered here and all the way down covering cleavage and it went down to our knees and we had to wear that under our clothes. And we were told that it was never going to change. And the funny thing is, guess what they've just recently done in the last six months? Now you can have porn shoulders. Right. Wow. and secret chants that we were taught, and we were told never to divulge this to anyone. If we talked to anyone about this, we would be cast out. And we were also given a new name. So my new name, I was told if I ever uttered it, I would be cast out. And so I knew my name, and my husband could know my name, but I was not allowed to know his name. Because in the temple, women covenant to God. I mean, excuse me, we covenanted to our husbands and our husbands covenanted to God. So I didn't even, I wasn't even worthy enough being completely worthy to covenant to God. I had to covenant

SPEAKER_00 11:10

to my husband and obey him. And I'm guessing that that sort of like applied in every aspect, in every decision-making power, in every kind of like owning a property or owning of anything had to be through your husband, right? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Yeah. And he always got the final say no matter what. He was considered the priesthood leader of the home and that we should never argue with the priesthood, that those were direct keys from God. And we as women were not allowed to have the priesthood, but we were teased and told, you can hold the priesthood by hugging him, by having him. You can hold the priesthood, but you can't hold the priesthood. Yeah. And, you know, when women would talk about how unfair it seemed, we were very much chastised and we were not Never allowed or permitted to question because that was considered apostasy. You were considered an apostate if you ever questioned anything. And so, you learned that it was not righteous. It didn't look good. It was sinful to question. And as the internet came about and people started learning about the history, we were never taught that Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, was a polygamist. We didn't know that. We knew that He taught polygamy later on, but we didn't know he himself was married to 40 women, some of them being under the age of 14, even 12. And some were mothers and daughters, this guy. And the church would not, they absolutely would not confirm that. They just said that is considered anti-Mormon literature. Don't listen to it. And they just assumed we'd never really find out. But now they're having to explain it and it's interesting watching them explain it away because they can't hide from it but they never told us I

SPEAKER_00 13:07

have so many questions regarding what we've just talked about I want to go back first to the idea of secrecy having a secret name having a secret handshake what do you think is the idea behind that why do you think because I'm trying to think like a lot of cults they do have a lot of secrets that they keep within and it's sort of like this is a privilege that you get to have being in do you think that this is something that increases loyalty or increases this bond between member and church? What's the idea behind secrets? So,

SPEAKER_02 13:36

the idea behind it is only worthy members can go to the temple. Not every member, not every Mormon can go to the temple. You have to go through two interviews to be considered worthy. Now, with that being said, we're told if we do not go to the temple, we can't be with our families forever. We will not be able to be with our families after death. So, there's this pressure that we have to be temple worthy in order to have the blessings of exaltation. And it's just, you know, it's mind-blowing that you have to go through two priesthood holders, the bishop and the state president, who ask you a slew of questions, including things like, do you pay 10% to the church? If you don't pay 10% to the church for tithing, you are not temple worthy. You are not allowed to go. But these secret handshakes and all of that Nobody tells you you're going to do it before you get there. And going into it as a 20-year-old girl, I was shocked. I felt uncomfortable. I felt it was very voodoo-y, like cult-y. And I remember thinking, this is what we do. This is the temple that they were telling me about, just was spiritual and wonderful and amazing. And I have to wear white robes. And that goes deeper, too, because because Yeah. wrong with me? You know, why do I think this is weird? I guess this is what we do. My mom and dad have been doing this forever. And I guess this is what we have to do to have eternal life. And yeah, but with the secret handshakes and the new name, I think that the purpose of that is to, in a way, change your identity, change you, taking you from who you are to who they want you to be. My name, by the way, and I don't think Right. And

SPEAKER_00 16:01

that makes sense to strip you away from who you are.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

recommend, they can't go to your wedding. They can't. Like, I couldn't go to my daughter's wedding. I wasn't permitted into the temple to see her get married because I didn't have a temple recommend. I had left the church. So, no non-members are permitted in for even the living ordinances of weddings. And so, people want to attend their child's wedding, and so they will do all the things that they have to so that they're able to be there. And they don't want everybody around them to know why they don't have a temple recommend. They're going to think I'm bad if they don't see me at the wedding. If I can't go to my own child's wedding, I'm going to be bad. So it's like this social pressure that's attached to it.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Can you walk me through your relationship with your husband, being taught that your husband was the step towards God? How did that sort of impact your relationship with your husband?

SPEAKER_02 18:06

I was married for 22 years. I I'm no longer married to him, but... I went along with it. It made sense to me because of the way I was raised. In my home, my dad ruled. Whatever my dad said went, and we were terrified of the guy, actually. But when I married my husband, I think that what made our marriage strong, the only thing we had in common was the church. We were both very faithful and believed it wholeheartedly, and so that was the basis of the strength of our relationship. And on Honestly, that was fine for me. I went along for years where whatever he said, I went along with. I can honestly say about six years into it, I started really struggling with the dynamics of it and went to counseling and started learning to have a little, little bit of my own voice. But at the end of the day, I always knew what he said went. And About six years in, I started struggling with it, and I would fight against it and remind myself I needed to be faithful. I don't agree with him. I have to do what I'm told in the sense like, you know, an example is his mom always had the holidays at her house, and I was never permitted to have a holiday with my children at my house. We went to her house. There was no question. If I wanted to just make my own meal for the kids and have my own traditions with them, no. No, we're going to my mom's. And after so many years, it really started to affect me. And I would say it was around the time that our fourth child was born and she passed away was when I started to kind of rebel against him a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Can you tell me a little bit more about the roles within? So from what I know, men were required to go out, travel around, preach, try to get people to join. What was it like for women, what were you required to do on a day-to-day basis?

SPEAKER_02 20:17

So, we were raised to be homemakers. You know, that we were raised that we would be—our most important role in life was to be a mother, to have children. That was our whole identity. There were two church schools. There was Brigham Young University, and there was Ricks College. And we could go, but most people knew we probably wouldn't graduate. We It wasn't expected for us to have a career. anything outside of that, I mean, it was pretty shameful. I had ideas when I was younger of things I wanted to do. And I was right away kind of kicked in the pants by my parents, like, you're not doing that. That's not what a member of the church does. We just don't do that. And I wanted to be a journalist. And nope, you're not doing that.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

And would you say that that was like the case for basically everyone around you? Or did you ever come across or see any woman out there that fought for their rights and actually managed No, I

SPEAKER_02 21:46

didn't. Everyone in church was, the women were very submissive. It was very rare back then. I think it is different now. I think things are changing now for sure. So a lot of younger people like in their 20s or 30s would watch this or they would look at me and say, she's full of crap. That's not taught. But that is what we were taught. And it's well documented. And we weren't We were expected to have children. We were also told we should not curtail the number of children that we had, meaning have as many as you can, multiply and replenish the earth. So people would have a tendency to judge one another. Like if somebody decided they only wanted one or two kids, selfish. You know, they just get labeled selfish. And we were expected to have large families. And we were even counseled by the prophet that we should not wait to have children. Even if we were in school, even if we couldn't afford to, we should not delay or we should not delay the start of our families. And so we were told like right after we got married, we should start to have children. And I look at my daughter now. She's been married nine years, no children, not interested. And I love it. I'm like, how cool is that? How

SPEAKER_01 23:05

amazing would

SPEAKER_02 23:05

that be to like just plan your life out the way

SPEAKER_01 23:09

you wanted it

SPEAKER_02 23:10

and make decisions for yourself like that? How amazing.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

But

SPEAKER_02 23:14

yeah, I was not given those choices. And sometimes that's the hardest part of it is to look back at that and think, okay, You know, I was given those choices. I was in so deep that I didn't understand they were choices. And there was a lot of criticism, if you did not live this certain way. And,

SPEAKER_00 23:39

yeah. What were some of the ways, though, that they were keeping people in check, in track, making sure that people were not deviating from, you know, yeah. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02 23:49

that's a great question, too. We were required to have an interview you with the bishop once a year. So it was called tithing settlement. It's done at the end of the year. He brings in families, and he looks over what you've contributed for tithing, and he asks you if it's an honest tithe. And sometimes they will question you and say, oh, you paid$8,000 this year. You only made$80,000, you know, or whatever it is. So sometimes you'll be questioned on that. So they have tithing settlement at the end of the year, and then again, in order to be able to go to the temple, you have to go through a really rigid interview with your bishop and the state president, and that has to be done once a year. So that temple recommend is only good for one year. So every year, you have to come before him, and he asks you questions like, do you pay 10%? Do you keep the word of wisdom, which means no smoking, no drinking? The other one is, do you keep the law of chastity so that's a big one because you're not allowed to have you're not supposed to have sex before you go to the temple you're not supposed to do anything naughty like that and so it gives you an opportunity for the bishop to really question and they didn't just stop with that sometimes they would drill you like if you said yeah I've had a little bit of a problem with this or that in my day masturbation or pornography those were considered not keeping the law of chastity so if you were to be honest and tell them, you know, I'm doing this or I'm doing that, you wouldn't get your temple recommend. And you couldn't take the sacrament. So, then everybody around you can see that you're not taking the sacrament, and they look, and they notice, and they wonder why, and rumors start. You know, but yeah, once a year, you've got that interview with the bishop that you've got to go to and the state president, and you are asked the bazillion really, really personal, intimate questions Right. Because in a sense, what ends up happening is just people

SPEAKER_00 26:23

that are rebelling, that are not actually following the faith. They're just doing actually what they want. Man, that's really crazy. I mean, to think that this was your life, right? This is something that you really lived. How do you contend now with the idea of what are people going to think? Do you feel like you've sort of somewhat overcome that hurdle of acting based on other people's thoughts? Or that still matters to you a lot? Well,

SPEAKER_02 26:54

it's been a long time since I've left the church now. We're going on 13 years. But I would say in the very beginning, it was one of the most challenging things I've ever done. It was one of the most lonely things. And I had been excommunicated from the church because I believe in honesty. And I had made some mistakes in my marriage when it was failing, and the marriage had been not good for a long time. And I had never been with anyone else in my life except my husband. I did everything right. And when I realized that, you know, my husband's just not that into me, I think I fantasized and always dreamed about what it would be like to be with someone who cared about me and just absolutely, you know, adored me. And I didn't plan to have an affair. I just decided that I was going to start bodybuilding and focusing on me since I couldn't really control the fact that my husband really wasn't that into me. So that was the route that I took. And the really unfortunate part was I did not realize how vulnerable I was. I never would have wanted to cheat on my husband. It's never a plan I would make. But I was very vulnerable. And I purposely chose a trainer that I was not attracted to that was my same height. He kind of looked like a monkey a little bit because of all the anabolics. Oh, yeah, yeah, this guy's safe. You know, he's safe. And after three years of training with him, he became like my best friend. He was like my pal. And then before you know it, like, he's sexy. You know, he looks good. And then, you know, the first time I kissed him, I thought, oh, what am I doing? Like, I am breaking the rules. I'm going to get in trouble. And one thing leads to another. And I find myself in the bishop's office with so much shame and guilt confessing because I couldn't live with myself. I felt, I mean, an affair is never a good thing anyway, whether you're in the church or out of the church. It's never honest. But I had always lived an honest life, and it really affected me. And I wanted to repent of my sins, even though I was really drawn to my sins I was like okay this is something I want to do but I'm not supposed to so I'm gonna I've got to confess and I did go in and tell my bishop and that was hellacious to say

SPEAKER_00 29:29

the least right tell me walk me through what happened

SPEAKER_02 29:33

so when um when I told the bishop it had been going on for a couple of months and I told my my trainer you know I can't do this anymore I'm gonna tell my husband I'm gonna have to tell tell confess. And the first thing that I did, I mean, it was so hard to even utter what I had done because all I could think of was hell, fire, brimstone, never seeing my children again, never seeing my daughter who had passed away. And that was the thing that really, I wanted to see her again. I wanted to be with my children. I actually really believed it. I think so many members of the church don't actually believe it as truth, but I believed it to my core, and I knew what I was doing was wrong, and I wanted to make it right. And so when I went into him, I had gone to a counselor first, and the counselor told me, she said, she was Mormon, and she said, you know, you're going to have to tell your husband. And I said, I know. And she said, because you are covenant, you make your covenants to him. And she said that she worked with men who had cheated on their wives, and they didn't have to confess Right. My husband wanted me to tell no one and he wanted us to work on it. And he said he would do everything that he could. I mean, after the initial losing his mind and like, I'm going to, but he didn't want a divorce. He wanted to stay married. And I, I really didn't want to stay married. I didn't want to be with my, with my trainer, but I, the marriage had been dead for so long. So I gave it another, we gave it another run and I found myself a year later in the same place with someone else. And I said to myself, is being a cheater, is being a cheater, once you're a cheater, you're always a cheater? Because I don't want to be that. Why am I doing this? I'm doing this because my marriage is miserable. I need to get out of it. So the first time I was disfellowshipped by the church, which means that I could still keep my blessings, but I was disfellowshipped because my husband wanted to stay married to me. So it depended upon what he wanted done. If If he wanted me excommunicated, I would have been gone. Disfellowshipped, I was just like on probation.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

Well,

SPEAKER_02 32:22

the second time I did it, the second time I did it, they were done with me. And I filed for divorce and left him. I wasn't going to let him talk. I don't even know why he wanted me to stay there. Why would you want to be with somebody who cheated on you? But he just did not want his marriage broken up because of the blessings, the blessings that he had because of me. I was his golden ticket to the celestial kingdom. And that's why there's a lot of babysitting between couples when you're in the church because you're their golden ticket. They can't get to heaven without you. And so rather than being a partner, you babysit each other. And yeah, it was after that that everybody in the community knew I'd been excommunicated. It was a really big deal to go through an excommunication. And you sit before, in my case, four men. who ask you detailed questions about which orifice it went in, how many times, yeah, how many times you've had sex with how many people. Did you like it? Very graphic questions. And I answered every one of them honestly. And I was told that the Holy Ghost would no longer be with me and the Holy Ghost is what they tell you is the still small voice. It's really your intuition, but they tell you that it's a And I walked out of there and I remember thinking, I still have the Holy Ghost. What the hell? And I thought, oh, wait, that's me. I'm the Holy Ghost. I'm the way. And it was just like, I didn't know how I was going to survive it because it affected my children. Everybody knew that they had a terrible mother, that their mother was breaking up their family. And I think my oldest at the time was seven. And my youngest was probably six or seven. So everyone at school was talking about it because we had a large Mormon community and everyone within the community because everybody knows the Mormons there.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Right. Can you walk me through how was your relationship with your kids after that then? It

SPEAKER_02 35:16

was hard. It was really hard. They were very, very angry with me. And I remember having to tell myself they're angry with me for good reason. They have every reason to be angry with me. And it's unfortunate that they have to know the details of our marriage and the demise of our marriage. It's very unfortunate. But I need to own it. I need to bravely own it and show them that we all make mistakes. This is a huge one. I had to find it within myself to not hate myself because in my religion, I was always taught And I had to relearn what the nature of God really is because I thought there's not a God that would do to me what those men did to me. He's not like that. Right. It will be okay. You will survive. And I started to believe in myself. And that's what my trainer taught me. He was the first person in my life to believe in me. And so I started learning those positive things. Even though he was way far out of my life, he really affected the way I learned to speak to myself and the way that I learned to survive what I was going through. And I also realized... I started realizing the church wasn't true. I just thought it just wouldn't—they wouldn't do this to somebody. They wouldn't ostracize somebody. I mean, it's like they're scared of me. It's like they are so terrified that I'm going to be a negative influence on the other women of the church, and they're terrified of me. You know, and that's what it boils down to. And I started seeing it for what it was, and I started thinking, I'm not a bad person. I'm a person that made a really bad mistake. How am I going to figure out in my life how I'm not going to make that mistake ever again? And I thought, well, I'll never be in a loveless relationship.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

I'll walk

SPEAKER_02 37:31

away before it becomes loveless, because now I know I can. But it's, yeah, it's scary. I've never been on my own my whole life.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

Yeah. Yeah, I was going to just say this, because I think you're the first episode that I've done where an individual has left and been excommunicated. communicated from a cult without having that awareness of like, hey, I'm in a cult. The episodes that I've done previously, they've been somehow made aware of the fact that this is a cult that they're in and then chosen to exit with that knowledge. Yes, that's a very interesting take. Right. So that's kind of what I wanted to know. How did it start to sort of dawn on you that actually what was happening inside was not true? was a cult was it from reading books about it reading you know other testimonials you know reviews of people honest stories listening to people's stories or was it just sort of realizing that so much of what they've said is not true you still have these wonders that you know that they've kind of been holding over you i'm so glad

SPEAKER_02 38:39

this question is phenomenal this is like this is such this is such an important like i am so impressed with you that like you're able that you Because I've never been asked this question. I've been asked most questions many times. This is a very good question. I think, yeah, I did not realize it was a cult. I just began to start thinking, is this how God would treat me? You know, for starters. And then about, and I was going through my divorce and everything, and my husband wasn't paying me child support. And he, and that is one of the questions. You have to be paying child support in order to go to the temple. Well, he wasn't. And when my daughter got married, they were going to let him go to the temple and not me. And I I was like, look, I've got a court order. This guy isn't paying me. And they said to me, he is the more righteous parent. He can go. And I thought, that's not what the rules are. The rules are, if you're not worthy, you don't go. You don't stack up who's better than who. This is not okay. And they let him go. He went to my daughter's wedding and I was not permitted. And then I had another relationship after him. I had started dating one of the high priest's sons who was 28 when I was 43. So I start dating him and we lived together. So it was pretty obvious what was going on. And I would get called in the bishop's office after I was excommunicated. After I was excommunicated, they wanted me to talk to them about it. And I was like, no,

SPEAKER_00 40:23

I don't owe

SPEAKER_02 40:26

you anything. But the guy cheated on me. He cheated on me. Because I told the truth. I believed it to my core. I lived it. I didn't care what happened to me. I told them exactly what they wanted. And they got rid of me because that's what you have to do. You have to lie to stay in. And that's when it occurred to me. And that's bullcrap. That's

SPEAKER_01 41:18

bullcrap. It occurred

SPEAKER_02 41:19

to me around the time my daughter got married where I no longer had that guilt or that fear of leaving. Yes, the guilt and the shame that would require personal penance and making myself a better person for the mistakes that I made and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

Your every thought is being monitored, not monitored, but like it is being recorded. It is understood. It is heard by, you know, the higher powers. So, you know, it's not only about your actions, but it's your very thoughts. But over here, it's quite the opposite. It's like it doesn't matter. Just you need to keep a squeaky clean look. We need to look good on the outside. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

And that that was one of the things that they said to me when they excommunicated me. They said, you are an embarrassment to this community. you Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. There was a movie, and in the movie it said, We're in an environment where we're kind to each other. We love each other. I can shower them with just so much attention and so much encouragement and create a positive environment. And I remember just feeling so free with my children that I had the patience with them that when they would say, you broke up our family and we lost our home, I would say, I did. I am so sorry. I did not want to break up our family. And then I would, as time went on and as they would start to notice things, they would say, yeah, dad didn't talk very nicely to you, did he? I'm like, no. And we talked to each other kindly. Isn't it a good feeling? And they would start to notice things. I have a great relationship with all of my adult children to this day. And they have every reason in the world to hate me. And they love me. And they are the ones that have taught me unconditional love, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

Wow. I mean, I can feel that as well, like in, you know, in our email correspondence and stuff, like the grace. I was thinking about this even before our interview, like the number of times you've just shown so much grace with, you know, having to like reschedule the interviews or, you know, all of these little things. I know that they seem little, but, you know, to a lot of people, it can be like, this is frustrating, you know, but you were just like, sure, no problem. Like, you know, let's do it. I'm just happy to do this. And to me, I don't know, it was such a, it was such a game changer to sort of see that because I just felt so calm and just like okay like this is this is okay like it'll be okay because I know sometimes I can get a little bit like anxious or worried if I know I'm having to like reschedule more than once especially that like I don't want to put someone else at such an inconvenience but when you're kind of putting that out there that kindness out there it makes a really really big difference you know it does and

SPEAKER_02 45:51

I think it I think that Yeah, one of those things, and I appreciate that. Thank you so much. cheating on me and this has everything to do with him and his pain and it doesn't have anything to do with me or not anything but it has more to do with what's going on with him because i remember what that felt like but equally it did hurt you know but offering him the grace because remembering that if i truly believe that i can change i need to be able to truly believe that someone else can change

SPEAKER_00 46:47

have you have you used like ever since you've been out have you um tried to convince, say, your kids or anyone, your family members in that's within about what the reality is? Have you ever tried to convince any of them out? No. So are they still all very much members? No. Oh,

SPEAKER_02 47:12

okay. Okay. So like, all of my siblings have left, all three of them, all of my kids are out. And I would never encourage anyone to leave, ever. And I wouldn't never go on someone's page on TikTok and say, your church is garbage. Truth is consistent. Truth is real. Truth is powerful. And when I told the truth about what I had done and owned my mistakes and told the gritty details, it gave me power. Like, man, there's some power in truth. Like, truth is, A, it's the funniest, and truth is powerful. Yeah. if they were still in the church or approve them only because they were in the church. Being in the church, everything was very conditional. I mean, there are a lot of people whose entire families cut them off when they leave. They're done with them. And I knew if I had done that 20, 30 years ago, my parents probably would have cut me off. But it's been interesting because my 83-year-old parents are still very, very much in. And then my boys, after they came home from their mission They also didn't go to my daughter's wedding, which is highly unusual because they have been endowed and they are considered temple worthy after they get back from their missions. And I noticed that neither one of them went. And I just kept my lip zipped. I didn't say anything. But everybody knows why they're not there. You know, they're not living the gospel. And that's like really bad in the Mormon church. Of course, no one ever called my sons in and asked them, you know, hey, what's going on? Give us the deets. I think it much different for women. We're definitely kind of targeted with that. But yeah, my sons didn't go, and I'm sure that there was probably some sexual component. You know, they're 21, horny as hell. And so, both of them, both my older sons and then my younger sons, my youngest son was the first one of my kids to leave the church. He was nine. And he said to me, nine, nine. He was nine. This kid is brilliant. He is. And he looked at me. It was right after my daughter's wedding. He looked at me and he goes, Mom, do you believe in God? And I said, yeah, I think I do. And he said, I don't. I'm atheist. It just felt so empty to hear him say, I'm an atheist. And I said, what makes you think you're an atheist? And he said, oh, he said, Bill Nye, the science guy. He says, what he says is true, Mom. Wow. Bill Nye. was dying. And all my kids, the nine-year-old, just, I don't believe in God. And everyone was like, oh my gosh. He is so funny. He's 22 now. He is so adorable. But he, all the time, he'll just say, Mom, don't you think it was cool that I led us all astray?

SPEAKER_01 50:41

But yeah,

SPEAKER_02 50:42

I do, actually. Because it actually kind of gave me permission to go, yeah, you know, this is a kid. This is a kid who sees through this garbage, and You know what? He's smart. And he really is a smart kid. But yeah, it kind of gave me permission. Like, Oh, mom, you're not all that bad. You don't have to go. You know, it's okay. You're not a terrible mom. I don't believe it either.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

Yeah. No, that's great. That's amazing to see like someone who's literally raised into it, like, you know, going through all the indoctrination and everything and yet can watch one episode. I'd be like, Nope, that's my truth. And literally, Living it so openly and

SPEAKER_02 51:24

comfortably, right? It's amazing. kicked the heck out. They don't want to kick people out anymore. They're losing members in droves. They would never kick somebody out like me now. I kind of feel like the OG Mormon. It kind of makes me excited to go, yeah, I got to

SPEAKER_01 52:06

communicate.

SPEAKER_02 52:07

They asked me how many times and I didn't know because I just didn't know. I'm like, I'm the OG.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

Yeah, exactly. Probably one of the last few.

SPEAKER_02 52:20

And now they can show their porn shoulders. I'm like, oh, whatever

SPEAKER_00 52:24

that's crazy oh my gosh so one last question i do want to know a little bit more though what was it like um um kind of adjusting into the world outside of mormonism uh in terms of getting a job in terms of you know finding friends you know in terms of your relationship with god after that where do you stand with that as well now yeah

SPEAKER_02 52:50

you know i i'm kind Coming back to spirituality, and I would have to say it's not God. I cannot for the life of me imagine a man ruling me. It is very, it's heart-wrenching. It's painful to my soul. And so I honestly honor Mother Earth. I mean, the Earth is just so beautiful. And I find myself just honoring the world that we live in and knowing that there is a creator. There has to be a creator. But I think of her as like a sacred, compassionate, loving, Mother Earth. And that's who I honor now. It's nice to be able to decide for yourself what feels right for me. And that's also something I would never push on anybody. I would ask them, what's right for you? It takes you a long time, you know, to get there. But as far as relationships and after my divorce, I went back to grad school. And so I was in grad school and became a nurse practitioner. And so when I found myself It was actually very good for me to, um, to, it was, it was the first career I really was allowed to have. And it felt kind of badass. It really did. Like I have a career, like this is a big deal. I'm not like a big girl with a big career. I can buy my own house. I can buy my own car. Like this rocks. So it was very empowering, like to not have a man and do, and just do me and also have the confidence in dating. Yeah, I'm not here because I need you to pay my bills. I'm not here because I need somebody to take care of me. I've never remarried. I don't think that I ever will. I don't want to. I'm scared of it. I'm actually terrified of it because it's just, it just doesn't feel, it doesn't, it doesn't speak to me. It just, it scares me and I am safer feeling like having my own space. I do cohabitate with someone that I'm in a relationship half of the week and then I work half of the week somewhere else because I know that I have to have my own space. I can't just be. And that's okay. I think I try to just appreciate myself for that, know where I've been, understand that maybe the traditional relationship doesn't work for me because of some of the hurt and the pain. And to force myself to be there would make me really anxious. And what about boundaries?

SPEAKER_00 55:46

Talk to me about that.

SPEAKER_02 55:47

That is a really good one. For me, probably the biggest boundary that that I've ever learned is I do not have to tolerate from anyone else what I would not do. So if someone speaks to me and they say something really unkind to me, I think to myself, I do not need to tolerate that. I do not need to believe that because that would never come out of my mouth. And I will promptly remove myself from the situation.

SPEAKER_00 56:16

Do you think that that sort of allowing of yourself, like giving yourself yourself the space and that accountability and the compassion is the thing that kind of drove you to write your book as well? Yes. Yes,

SPEAKER_02 56:30

it is. And writing the book has been a two-year process. It has been hard. I did not expect for it to be so hard. It was painful at times. I had to hire a co-author to help me. She has been amazing. We And she knew nothing about the Mormon church when we got started. And the way that we met was on TikTok. And I was on TikTok. She wasn't on my account. But I just started. I was so frustrated writing my story. I just decided, I'm going to start telling about this magic underwear that I used to wear. And I'm just going to tell all the secrets. And I'm going to tell my secret name. And I'm just going to go on

SPEAKER_01 57:12

TikTok and do it.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

And I did. I just got on there and I go, yeah, were you Mormon? And what was your secret name? Because mine was Claudia and I'm not going to hell. And I just did that. Wow. that is that there was a guy on there that followed me when I started my new account. And he told me, he said, I want to pay for your book. I want to help you. And he said, and I have somebody in mind. And so I'd like to contract her to do your story. And then he started telling me how we're going to do it. He said, we're going to make this about Vegas. We're going to do this. He said, I grew up Mormon. We're going to do this. We're Tell me what to do in my life. This is baloney. And that's what I told him. I just said, you know what? I don't feel good about this. I don't like you telling me what I'm going to put in my book. And it doesn't feel right. And also, I can pay for my own book. So I appreciate the gesture. Very nice. But this is not the way I want to go. And he also said to me in that conversation, And I thought, here we go. Yeah, I agree with you. I don't want to use this guy. I'm willing to pay you directly. Do you still want to do it? I mean, I appreciate the fact that he helped us find each other. I know you guys are kind of involved in a relationship. I just want to keep that separate. And she said, what? I'm not involved in a relationship with him. In his dreams. And we both started cracking up. We were dying laughing. We're like, perfect example of how men play women.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:05

And

SPEAKER_02 1:00:06

you know what? So I just paid her the money and we cut him out like just go away and quit messing with both of us. And it was awesome. That's how we found each other. And we did Zooms for the first year. And then we got together and started literally compiling it into the chapters and then perfecting it. And it's called A Piece of Me, Finding My Voice After Mormonism, Marriage, Medicine, and Men. And so I

SPEAKER_00 1:00:32

love it. Yeah, yeah. Like you're really one of those examples of someone who's turned their pain into you know into a story that is um just just so powerful like it's so meaningful in its in its own sense as well like you know so you know huge props to you that means so much

SPEAKER_02 1:00:55

that's my hope and I really feel like it will resonate with people I really really do I think more so with women yeah but I think anyone who reads it I mean it doesn't help that it's hot pink you know yeah but I I really think anyone reading it will be able to find a piece of themselves in it and learn, first and foremost, self-compassion and then compassion for the world around them.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:23

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Susie, thank you so much for being on Multispective and being vulnerable with us today.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:30

Thank you. Thank you so much for the opportunity. It is such a pleasure to meet you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:39

If you enjoyed the episode and would like to help support the show, please follow and subscribe. You can rate and review your feedback on any of our platforms listed in the description. I'd like to recognize our guests who are vulnerable and open to share their life experiences with us. Thank you for showing us we're human. Also, a thank you to our team who worked so hard behind the scenes to make it happen.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:00

The

SPEAKER_00 1:02:04

show would be nothing without you. I'm Jenica, host and writer of the show, and you're listening to... multispective.