087 I Escaped the FLDS Cult: Ange’s Story

Angie shares her extraordinary journey from being born and raised in a polygamist fundamentalist Latter-day Saints cult to finding freedom and building a new life in the outside world.

• Born in a small FLDS community in Canada with minimal interaction with the outside world
• Pulled out of school at age 16 for cutting her hair, which was against religious rules
• Arranged marriage at 16 to a man she barely knew
• No access to basic education about history, science, or human relationships
• Describes the religious control through fear and shame – "we were God's chosen children"
• One uncle had 26 wives and over 150 biological children
• Left the religion as a teenager, losing all family and community connections
• Reconnected with her husband outside the religion and built a new life together
• Both pursued education – she now has a master's degree in nursing, he's a life flight helicopter pilot
• Focuses on "glimmers" – finding small moments of joy and gratitude as the opposite of triggers
• Breaking generational cycles by creating a safe environment for their children to question and challenge

You can find Angie on Instagram @angemfj and on TikTok @CadesBabe. She also runs a company called Glimmers focused on bringing joy through clothing she designed to spark happiness.

Transcript

Born Into a Polygamist Fundamentalist Cult

Speaker 1 0:05

I feel like I have lived enough lifetimes that I should be like at least 60 years old. We were God's chosen children. If we were good enough, we were going to be lifted up and the earth was going to be cleansed, and then we, the chosen people, would be set back down and be able to repopulate the earth as God's purest people. Everybody who's not in the religion is going to hell. We didn't have interaction with the outside world at all Control in every aspect, like what you ate, what you wore, what you listened to, how you spoke. One of my uncles had 26 wives, over 150 biological children. When I left, I was leaving everybody that I knew and I was leaving my family and for me. I've just focused so hard of just finding something to be grateful for.

Speaker 2 0:57

Angie, welcome to Multispective. I'm super thrilled to have you here on the podcast with us to share your journey. Yeah, how are you doing today?

Speaker 1 1:06

I'm doing great. I am super excited to be here and chat about it, so I'm grateful you reached out.

Speaker 2 1:12

Yeah, you know, your journey kind of begins way, way, way back. One of the questions I always ask my guests is you know where does it all begin from? You Tell us about your childhood, and a lot of the guests that we do have you know they've had a fairly smooth-ish childhood and then something happens later on in their lives. But the reason why I ask this is, like you know, your childhood sets the foundation for your future. You know how you were as a child, your upbringing, that's the thing that's going to set the foundation, the building blocks for the decisions you make in your adult years. So for you, it'll be interesting to sort of hear how your childhood also shaped the way that you see the world today. So yeah, angie, why don't you begin to start from the very, very beginning?

Speaker 1 1:57

Yeah, that might take a whole book to tell you that story, but I'll summarize the best I can. I'm born and raised into a polygamist fundamentalist Latter-day Saints cult. I say cult because it was very much a high-demand religion. That, you know, meets every aspect of cult. Some people don't like it being called that, but I think it's okay if I call it that. Their basis of their foundation, I guess of their religion, is similar to Mormons and Latter-day Saints. However, they believe in multiple wives and they believe in the women like there's a severe patriarchy. I compare it to Handmaid's Tale just because I've seen a little bit of that and it's quite similar.

Speaker 1 2:43

I started watching it. It was quite triggering so I didn't finish, but I grasped the concept of it. So, born and raised in it and grew up my whole life with. That's All I Knew right Didn't have much interaction with the outside world.

Speaker 1 2:58

I was born in a community that was very small in canada. That is where I was born, and they had a sect of. The flds was up there. Their main sect was in colorado city, arizona, and salt lake city, utah. They have had two big set like communities is what we call them, right. Um, and so I, I guess my childhood, in my point of view, was pretty typical for what I mean, it was all I knew, right.

Speaker 1 3:27

So we did a lot of cooking and gardening and a lot of self-sustaining things where the community relied a lot on their own resources. So we did a lot of canning and a lot of farming. My dad had a lot of animals we did. I did go to private school they had a private school there so I did end up going to ninth grade. I finished ninth grade, um, at their private school there in the community. And then, um, I did not finish 10th grade because I got pulled out of school because I cut my hair, which was against the religion. So you can't cut your hair in the religion and I did. And so my family pulled me out of school for that. And then, yeah, it was shortly after that that you know, I was the rebel and decided to, or they decided that I was going to get married.

Speaker 2 4:22

So they felt like at that point, in order to keep you back on track, would be to to kind of pull you in even deeper into it, get you, get you married and get you in, kind of to keep the family name and image, is it?

Speaker 1 4:38

Yeah, and that was kind of the goal, like when you were. What we were taught growing up was like you want to be able to be, you know, a wife and that's just like the most privileged thing is to be worthy, I guess, of becoming a wife to you know a priesthood man and you're always like taught that you know polygamy and plural wives was the way it was and that was all you knew, right, we knew many people that had many wives and you just, you know, accepted it and loved it and that was what you were, it was, it was familiar to you right when you. When I look at it now with my perspective from the outside world, I'm like whoa, that's so strange.

Speaker 1 5:20

But, growing up in it there was no. I had nothing to compare it to, so it was normal.

Speaker 2 5:25

Right. So I just want to go back a little bit just to talk a little bit more about what is the FLDS? For listeners that might not know about it Probably more likely to hear about Mormonism. We're probably more likely to hear about the LDS, but the FLDS is sort of like a strand from both of them. How does that work?

Speaker 1 5:44

Yeah, so Mormonism and LDS are the same in and of itself. They call themselves that, but Fundamentalist LDS. So FLDS is what the group that I was born and raised in was, and they were a break off of it back in the early 1900s or late 1800s. Then they broke off because the mainstream Mormon church had decided they weren't going to continue with polygamy. And then the FLDS broke off and said no, we're still going to continue with polygamy, we believe it's the right way and that's what we're going to do. So that was their main differences is that the FLDS still believes in polygamy and the Mormonism went a different direction and LDS is like no, we don't believe in polygamy and we're not going to practice that anymore. So they kind of phased it out.

Speaker 2 6:36

Right. But predominantly the way these kind of changes happen is when there is a leadership change right. Usually that's when things start to kind of maneuver.

Speaker 1 6:46

Yep, and that's exactly what it was is there was a profit change in the LDS and they didn't really agree with the. The FLDS leaders didn't really agree with that, and so they kind of split off and started their own little sect and it spread, which is kind of weird. I don't really understand fully how it got from Utah to Canada and you know, especially back when there was no internet or no phones and those kind of things Like how did you guys like get in the covered wagon and truck to Canada and find some people Like I'm not 100% sure how they all kind of got connected? That would take a little bit more diving into my history that I don't really know. So but yeah, that's their main.

Speaker 2 7:29

Their main differences is that Right, yeah, the fact that it did kind of spread, like you know, pretty far out means that there was obviously some kind of influence, or, you know, maybe you know I guess it's Jeff Warren that kind of initially started the fundamentalist and who probably had his you know people to kind of help spread it as far as possible. You know, and I guess this is generally one of those you know, core foundations of a lot of cults is like try to spread the word, spread the gospel, spread the idea, spread the prophecy as far as you can to anyone that will kind of believe in it, because this is how they make more money, this is how they grow the group and whatever, not so yeah, and Warren Jeff's father was the leader before him and he kind of Warren kind of groomed himself into becoming the leader and like groomed, I guess, the whole audience and the whole following into that.

Speaker 1 8:23

And when his father passed away he kind of just like took over and after when warren took over, there was some pretty severe changes and that's around the timeline, um is when I around that, when I left, when those severe changes were happening and okay, um, and yeah, it was just, it was wild because warren jeff's is insane.

Education and Control in the FLDS

Speaker 2 8:47

So yeah, yeah, um, before we do get into that, though, I do want to know a little bit more about your like early years. Um, you mentioned that you were pretty much born into it. Do you know about your parents? Were your parents also kind of in it from really early days, or was it something that they made that initial choice to do?

Speaker 1 9:06

No, most every like as far back as generations as I know, were part of it, and so my parents were, my grandparents were, their parents were, and so I think it was at that point like my great grandparents that were part of settling in Salt Lake and like that kind of stuff. But I don't know all the specifics completely, but they were definitely born and raised in it. It's all they ever knew. My parents got married when my mom was 16 as well, so it was just like you know, that's what was expected and yeah, so it was everything I grew up learning.

Speaker 1 9:46

I didn't know like we would go outside the community for like doctor appointments or dentist appointments or things like that, but we didn't have interaction with the outside world at all. Like we didn't have TV, we didn't have like anything like that where we weren't allowed to watch movies. We just, I mean, we were bored a lot of the time. So we did a lot of crafts and a lot of, like you know, playing outside in the forest and things like that. But overall it was a good childhood. It was just very different than your typical one.

Speaker 2 10:18

Yeah, I can imagine and when, and I guess you know you mentioned that you did go to schooling, but I'm guessing that was also a FLDS school where you were taught the practices of the FLDS. So you didn't have, I don't know, classes on history and geography as much as Nope. Can you talk to me a little bit more about what you've been taught?

Speaker 1 10:39

Yeah, that has been a big part for me and a big aha for me. That has been a big part for me and a big aha for me is I. So jumping ahead just a little bit, but I did not have a formal like to graduate, like I didn't graduate in anything. So when I had left, a couple of years after I left, and I wanted to go to college, I figured out how to go to college and like, asked them how to do it and took my placement tests and all those things. And like, asked them how to do it and took my placement test and all those things.

Speaker 1 11:06

And then I was sitting in my first English class and they were like, okay, english 101, you know, you're going to, we're going to write an essay on the Holocaust. And I was like, well, what's the Holocaust, you know? And I just asked that, like in the class and everybody laughed at me and I was like, um, so I'm supposed to know what the Holocaust was like, you know? And it was just like, oh my gosh, like I actually don't know what the Holocaust is, you know. And so, and it was, you know, before the internet had really taken off, it was like 2004, 2005, where it was like starting to, just you know.

Speaker 2 11:40

Right.

Speaker 1 11:41

And so on my way home from school that day, I stopped at the library and, like was looking at books about what the Holocaust was, because I didn't know.

Speaker 1 11:49

And I was like you know, just I was blown away Because I'd never heard anything about it, I'd never like read anything in the history books, I'd never been exposed to any of it. And then here I am sitting in a library on the floor reading these books of all these horrific things that had happened, and I'm just like I was not prepared for that, you know. And so there was so much history, and even today I still like it's easier for me to agree and just like nod most of the time, like yeah, I know what you're talking about, and then go book it up later because but there's a lot of stuff I don't know and that I haven't been exposed to. And I haven't. I mean, I try to listen to a lot of history books and I try to like catch up, but there are so many things that I'm like it's impossible to base a foundation. Right, you don't have that basic, but yeah, I guess.

Speaker 2 12:41

I guess the same thing would apply to like anything like I don't know. Someone makes a little reference about Friends, that TV show you know and everyone's laughing about. You know this moment in that in that show and you're like what's that? Like what is Friends?

Speaker 1 13:05

I left and it's that same thing like everybody. Yeah, we'll make those references, but there's so many movies that I've never seen and right, and it's hard for me to sit and watch tv just because it was never a part of my life and so it still isn't really a part of my life. I'll watch it here and there and I'll watch movies here and there, but I don't ever sit down and just like it's not my choice of thing to do you know, know, so it's.

Speaker 1 13:26

It is definitely different when people will say remember when and you're like, no, I don't.

Speaker 2 13:35

So what? What did your education, like you know, in your younger years, consist of? What were you mainly being taught?

Speaker 1 13:41

We did, like basic. We did math, of course, and then English, as far as, like you know, literature and language arts. We did some social studies where we did do some of the basic history. Obviously, I was in Canada, so we did some of the basic history of settling Canada. I did learn some French cannot speak it today, but I did learn some French because I was, you know, in Canada. But and then science, you know, we did spelling and a lot of just your basic knowledge bases, but just they would pick and choose. And so we also did a lot of priesthood history that was their own books and their own teachings and their own classes. And we did a lot of singing and band. We did learn some band instruments. Um, yeah, that's pretty much it. Um, nothing, nothing super special and nothing really out of the ordinary, except for we just were, it was very selected and what we were taught right, um, so picked over, if you would.

Speaker 2 14:46

Yeah, yeah um your mom? Was your mom um the first wife of your dad, the second wife? How did that? How does your family tree work?

Speaker 1 15:39

yeah, so my mom my mom is my dad's first wife and he only ever had one wife. And yeah, she was his first wife when she was 16. I believe he was 18 or 19 when they got married. Maybe he was a little older, maybe he was 20. I'm not 100% sure, but she was very young when they got married. Regardless, but yeah, she was born and raised in Utah and brought up to Canada to marry him in the early 80s, I think.

Speaker 2 16:15

And that was usually selected by the prophet as well, right.

Speaker 1 16:19

The marriages were all arranged by the prophet.

Speaker 2 16:23

How did they make that decision? How did they decide to send your mom there?

Warren Jeffs and Religious Manipulation

Speaker 1 16:40

What was the decision making process, would you know? I have no idea. Um, I think there was some some leadership influence like, oh, I think this person would be good with that person, or you know um, they did try to keep the gene pool at a minimum of mixing right some, some extent, until warren got into power, but um, before that there was a.

Speaker 1 17:04

They did try to um, but I don't know what the process was as far as like them deciding, oh, these, it was just like the prophet will decide, and you shall not question, you know and that's who you get right.

Speaker 2 17:20

I guess a lot of cults do kind of fall on that predacus of like you do not ask questions, you just, you know, you just oblige, you know you just follow the rules of the prophet and no questions asked and you just have to take it that that's probably what's going to be best for you. What were some of the ways that they managed to make you guys not question or ask any questions about things?

Speaker 1 17:44

Well, they put a lot of fear and shame right, and so a lot of control is by fear and shame. And so with them, we were taught that if we were good enough, the goal was that we were all going to be, we were chosen, we were God's chosen children and if we were good enough, we were going to be lifted up and the earth was going to be cleansed. And then we, the chosen people, would be set back down and be able to lifted up and the earth was going to be cleansed, and then we, the chosen people, would be set back down and be able to repopulate the earth as God's purest people, right. And so every time there was like a natural disaster or a like when the twin towers got struck, um, then there was that was a new, reignited fear of the destructions are coming and you're not good enough, and everybody would get you know super scared and all go back to being like our best selves that we could be right. And there was just that constant fear of we're never going to be good enough and we've got to make sure we're just doing better.

Speaker 1 18:44

And they they talk to. If you have questions, just put them on a shelf and leave them there and when you get to heaven, god will answer them, you know. And so, just like that's what you were taught, like don't ask questions, you know. And if you did ask questions, then they would come up with some, you know, irrational answers that were just like you know, well, that's the way God planned it, you know. And just like doesn't make sense now to me, but, nan, at the time they were good at controlling your feelings, right? That's crazy.

Speaker 2 19:18

And with the polygamy. How were they able to encourage people to have multiple wives like um? What was the thought process behind that?

Speaker 1 19:29

yeah, so they're. Another. One of their goals was to multiply and replenish the earth, right, with god's chosen people, right. So we're the purest people you know and we're the only ones that can have pure people, because everybody who's not in the religion is going to hell. Right, they're teaching you that from the very beginning, and so they would try to have multiple wives so they could have a lot of children. And these bigger households, you know, needed more wives to manage them and so like, to help with the kids and to help with everything going on. So I don't know that there was really an encouraging, it just wasn't. There wasn't any other options. Like you, if you were chosen to be a second wife or a third wife or a 10th wife or whatever, that was your calling, you know, and you just that's who you got.

Speaker 2 20:18

So and wasn't it, wasn't it seen as like a blessing if you, if a man, were to have multiple wives, every wife that they were given? It was like a blessing if you, if a man, were to have multiple wives.

Speaker 1 20:30

every wife that they were given. It was like a blessing for them, yeah, and it was very traumatic for my mom because my dad didn't get multiple like a second wife for a lot like forever, and so my mom was very like discouraged and disappointed, like, oh my gosh, we're not going to go to the highest level of heaven like. This is just awful, you know. And so, um, they do strive for that and it is looked at as an honor, um to to be a second wife or a third wife, or you know. And I was like always told, like everyone growing up, I just want to be the first wife so that I can, you know, be in control. Because that was my myth of understanding is, the first wife had any control, but not that I had any say in it, and when it came down to it, it was literally whatever they decided.

Speaker 2 21:16

So Right, and what was it like for your dad, though not being assigned a second or a third wife, like, how did he experience that?

Speaker 1 21:25

I think it was disheartening to him too, because he did try, you know, and in when you're in that and that's your goal, and yet there's no guidance or feedback on why, like, I feel like it was disheartening to him at times and whenever they would do a whole bunch of weddings or anything and other people would get you know second or third wives, then it was like disappointing to us, like as kids, because we were like, oh my gosh, like nope, our dad didn't get one. You know, like that was like what we were hoping for, even though I'm like so grateful he didn't, because there's like not good stories, so I'm like, oh, I'm so glad he didn't do that, yeah.

Speaker 2 22:03

That's just it's so crazy to hear. Right, Because, like in the outside world, like monogamy is the thing right, Most people they want to be in one marriage and just committed and loyal to that and that's sort of like the norm. And over here it's like monogamy is looked down on and both husband and wife see it the same way, Children see it the same way as well, and you're almost being told that you will be rewarded with a wife if you do good. So naturally you're going to think if you know you're not doing enough if you don't have a second wife, and so, yeah, it's just that mentality. So, so interesting, I guess. I guess it also kind of to an extent makes sense because it was arranged. There was no aspect of love in there at the very beginning, at least when it first started, and so it's easier to sort of like accept a second or a third wife, whereas maybe it would be different if they really did experience love for their partners. I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 22:58

I don't know, because I feel like even the best of the relationships that you, that I saw and that I witnessed, there's so much much jealousy and as much as they try to like mask it and pretend there's not, like I mean you think of it if I think of it now, and I'm like boy, if my husband was in the next room and sex with some other woman, like I would be pissed, you know there would be no, you know no getting along there, and but in the religion they're taught to encourage it and to honor it and to treasure it, and it's like huh no that's not me and so I.

Speaker 1 23:36

It's just wild to look at now because I wouldn't, I would never, but in it when you're in it and that's what you're taught it's like.

Speaker 2 23:44

I guess, yeah, can you. Can you walk me through some stories that you'd heard or seen around you friends of your family that were in polygamist relationships? What were some of the things that were going on? What was some common?

Speaker 1 23:58

yeah, well, one of the most common ones that I saw is just the women always trying to get the man's attention right. When you've got multiple wives and they're waiting on you hand and foot, they're always just going above and beyond, trying to get, like, the man's attention and be the good wife, and so that was mainly what I saw in a bunch of the families, or the opposite.

Speaker 1 24:19

I would see one of the wives carry the load of the household and like carry the load of the kids, and then the husband would have this by far favorite wife where he, that favorite wife, would go with him everywhere and you know the one other, less favorite wife would be left at home, um, taking care of the kids and like doing all the household stuff, so, and that you couldn't really hide that, even as a child, like I noticed that in families where I would be like, oh, that this mom sure is doing a lot more than that other mom, you know, and so and they would try to mask it and try to be like we're just doing the good Lord's work, you know.

Speaker 1 24:56

And then and then they just, I mean you could tell it was hard on them and yeah, just a lot of vying, fighting for their attention and trying to be chosen, I guess, to go with them or do different things with them. And you know, because one man can only go so far between you know, five or six women or whatever, you know. Um, one of my uncles had 26 wives, so in his household it was like you were always seeing women just like bustle around him and like try to take care of him and like wait on him, and it's just, it feels icky now looking at it, where I'm like how could you feel like that was right, you know?

Speaker 1 25:38

as a man, like getting all these women to fight for your attention. Like it was unfair for all of them.

Speaker 2 25:46

I thought that the only person that had 26 wives was the prophet. I mean not Warren. Yeah, I think it was even Jeff Warren and even his father that had like 26 wives. I did not know that that was something that even members of the FLDS would and could have.

Marriage at 16 and Wedding Night

Speaker 1 26:03

Yeah, some of the higher up leaders so my uncle was a bishop in the church would have multiple, multiple wives. So most of them had like maybe three, four around that, like some of them would have up to 10. But there was a few, like a few, of the elite ones that did have, you know, the 26 and up, you know so, and how many children would they have on 26 wives?

Speaker 1 26:33

um, I know that my, my uncle, has over 150 biological children. So I know that he has that many, but I don't know all of the other families that do and how many they have. But I think when we calculated my husband's out, I think his dad has 26 children and he had three wives.

Speaker 2 26:56

So yeah, I think that's how many siblings do you have? I?

Speaker 1 27:01

have 10. So my parents have 10. Wow, so my parents have 10.

Speaker 2 27:06

Wow, I'm the second oldest.

Speaker 2 27:14

I did a lot of diaper changing and babysitting. So yeah, I would imagine that that would be sort of like the role of the older sibling, especially in a really big one, but kind of take on a little bit of a motherly role and in a way for the church it's also encouraged because then you're training how to be a mother to your own children, so it kind of just falls naturally yep, it does, and I I have like done a lot of helping my siblings even because a lot of them are out of the religion now and I've helped like help them leave and help them, you know, get established and raised them essentially.

Speaker 1 27:44

and so I took on that motherly role and I had to kind of separate myself from it when I became a mother and be like I have to take care of my own kids, like I can't be my sibling's mom and like I need to prioritize my children.

Speaker 1 28:39

And it took a lot of years for me to set those boundaries and to figure out how I was going to do that. Because I did, I felt responsible for a lot of them for a lot of years, you know, um, just because I did help raise them from infants.

Speaker 2 28:53

You know that's true. Um, what would you say is like one of the like walking through some of, maybe, stories that are really significant, moments are really significant, that really stood out to you while inside, inside the the group as far as like religious ones or like just like day-to-day stuff. Maybe you can start with the religious ones. You know things that maybe you saw, experience, or just until today you still you know, still remember, or haunted by, in a sense.

Speaker 1 29:25

Well, I think a lot of it still haunts me. There's still things that I go back and I'm like I still can't believe that we did that right. But they do a lot of religious practices that many churches do Like they do church every Sunday and that was just the normal. They do priesthood meeting, where the men have a separate meeting. There's a very big patriarchy of just like the women worship the men and the men decide all the things.

Speaker 1 29:50

And you're taught that from infancy, like if your dad, if your father, says yes or no, then he's right and you have to do what he says right, there's no questioning. And so you're taught that too from a very young age to not question a man, not question what they say, just do it right, which I think is so dangerous. Right Because there's so much control that the men had that was abused. But typically, you know, I'm just thinking of when I started kind of questioning. Some of it was right. It was before I got married. Obviously I cut my hair and I was kind of a rebel and that was kind of the reeling in for me was that, you know, we got to, we got to get this girl in, you know, married so she can get her life together, you know, and kind of wash our hands of her and get her going on her path, and I was just thinking, like there was this pull to me that there must be something more there, there has to be something more to life, and just feeling like, if this is all there is in life, I don't, I don't love this, you know, like there has to be more to life than this. There has to be like because they teach you to like, happiness is the object and design of our existence, you know, and that's one of their sayings that they say all the time. And I just kept thinking well, this isn't happiness. Like, what is this? You guys are telling us what to do, how to do it. And so when I was a teenager is when I started really questioning that and rebelling, if you would.

Speaker 1 31:22

Up until then, I was like the world's most perfect child, like I was an angel, never said no, I was just like always doing what my mom needed. And it wasn't until I was about 13, 14, that I was like hmm, I don't love this. So, but they did have just control in every aspect, like what you ate, what you wore, what you listened to what, how you spoke, like everything they would say well, we can't say those words anymore. Like we got told we couldn't call I'm sure you heard me just correct myself. We couldn't call our dad dad anymore. We had to call him father because it was more respectful, and so for a lot of years, like growing up, we had to like relearn how to not call him dad. We had to only call him father, and so it was really weird for me as a little girl because I had called him daddy and then I didn't get to call him that anymore and it was bad if I did, and so it was like just weird stuff like that that you're like.

Speaker 1 32:23

Why does that even matter? Yeah it's all like in control, so yeah, that.

Speaker 2 32:29

that's the interesting part, right, it's like you're being taught one thing and you're being taught that this is the way forward to God, and then they do a complete flip and suddenly that's not the way forward. So I can imagine a lot of people being like, but why? I mean, that's always been the way forward. How to kind of accept that is by absolutely crushing any sense of critical thinking so that you just blindly follow, regardless of what it is. And in the same way, I wanted to ask as well, like if they, if they did say I do remember that they, they mentioned that the prophet is going to live forever, and when he eventually did die, how did that, you know? How did everyone deal with that?

Speaker 1 33:11

Yeah, that was so wild, right. And so we were taught that like he was going to be renewed, his health was going to be renewed. And here we are watching this old man have a stroke and you know, he's still like getting. We're still being taught he's still the mouthpiece of god and he will be renewed if everyone is good enough. And so every time he wouldn't get better, it was all on the people. So everything was always directed back to the people. And you're not good enough and you guys need to be better, and you know. So everyone would then just like ah, you know, we'd all start fasting and praying and cleaning up all of our lives in every aspect that we could, you know. And it was a part again of control because it would happen like no-transcript.

Speaker 1 34:13

When he died, oh my gosh, we were all like, now what you know, like we were taught our whole lives. It was going to be renewed and he was going to, you know, walk out those doors and be a young man again, and you know. And so Warren just turned it right back around on the people and was like he died because you guys weren't good enough, you know. And so then everybody's just like oh my God, we're not good enough, you know.

Speaker 1 34:39

And so there was a little bit of an upheaval where my uncle and Warren clashed and my uncle was like this crap, you know, and kind of split off from Warren and created his own little sect. But Warren took control and he like, eventually he just started marrying his dad's wives and saying like this is a prophecy, I'm supposed to marry you, and like, just you know, but it all came back to the people not being good enough to that's why Rulon died, and so he put so much more shame on the people, which, again, is just control, again, just like you know, making gaslighting and making them feel like you know, everything you're doing doesn't matter. It's still not good enough.

Speaker 1 35:27

You're not going to go to heaven, and now our prophet's dead because of you.

Speaker 2 35:31

Right, you know you're not going to go to heaven, and now our prophet's dead because of you, right, and I guess, yeah, there's no limit to that. You can just keep saying that, you can just keep adding more and more and make a person question themselves even more. And I wanted to ask so. Like when Jeff came into play, obviously he started off with his guilt tripping, making everyone feel like they were less than what were some of the changes that he made? This is for anyone that may not be aware of this what was some of the changes that he made back over there, that kind of you know that you guys felt in Canada as well?

Escaping the Cult and Starting Over

Speaker 1 36:14

If you didn't, you know, stand up and attest that he was the prophet, then he would, you know, do awful things like take your family away and marry him to somebody else and, you know, say that you no longer hold the priesthood and you haven't. You know you're not going to have a salvation anymore. And so that was just the start of his main control is just if you guys don't believe that I'm the prophet, then you need to leave, you know. And so there was a lot of families just torn apart because they had basic questions about it, and he would be just like no questions, you're no longer worthy. And it just spiraled from there.

Speaker 1 36:47

He has come up and still in prison today, is having revelations about things for the people to do, and I think that's the shitty part is it's still happening today, but he's still controlling it from prison and he's still saying all these things. But he's so irrational. He'd be like you can't eat corn anymore, you can't eat any products that have corn in them anymore. Just like. Like that doesn't even make sense. Like why would you say what? Like why can't eat corn anymore, you can't eat any products that have corn in them anymore, just like. That doesn't even make sense.

Speaker 1 37:13

Like, why would you say what? Like, why is that? But this is just a test of the people. You know you need to not do this and it would just be like the most dumb stuff. But when you're trying to prove yourself and you're trying to be worthy, and you know you're worried about your salvation, and that's all you know to be worthy, and you know you're worried about your salvation, and that's all you know, you get really worried and you get really scared and you get like okay, well, I guess I'm not eating corn anymore, right, you know so, and all of it was really more to do with just his paranoia, like he was just paranoid that people were not going to follow, so let me see how far I can push them, and and if they respond, that means they're still, you know, believers of me.

Speaker 1 37:56

Yeah, a lot of. It was just like control the people and see how much control he could have. And, yeah, not a good person.

Speaker 2 38:06

Yeah, it's really messed up. How many wives did he have again? It's really messed up. How many wives did he have again?

Speaker 1 38:12

Oh, I don't even know. He had upwards of 60. When he went to prison, I believe he had upwards of 60. I'd have to ask. A couple of my close friends were married to him actually. So a couple of the girls have left and we have a good friendship now. Um, but they were very young. One of them was 12 when she got married to him, which is just so heart-wrenching because you know he obviously did awful things to her and just like breaks my heart that that actually happened. But when you're in that religion you don't even know like intimacy and anything like that is never talked about ever. Um, even when I got married, I had no idea what sex was or what that was or how to do anything you know. And so, um, it's just wild that all that is going on behind closed doors and not ever discussed like you wouldn't think, like even basics would be, you know, great for people to know.

Speaker 1 39:11

But yeah, so he had a lot of wives. I think it was upwards of 60. I'm not 100% sure on the number there.

Speaker 2 39:21

That's just really crazy. I mean, I remember the documentaries while they talked about, you know, some of these girls that got married to Roland as well and their first night with him and not knowing what was expected, expected, but it was just, you know, take off your clothes, spread your legs, he'd roll on top of them and then, just you know, they'd be like in the state of shock, like what just happened. Some, I think I remember in that documentary one of the girls said that she thought that kissing would be would lead to having a baby. She had no idea that it was, um, walk me through like your wedding. How did all of that kind of pan out for you? And um, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 39:56

So, um, our wedding I was 16 when we got married and, um, it was just a very like. They did a legal ceremony at the laundromat i'm'm sure you saw my funny reel but because they didn't really like anybody on their property that wasn't part of the religion, then they had us meet in a public space to do our legal wedding. And so we both show up to our legal wedding and we get married and we both leave in different vehicles because we weren't married by the religion yet, so they didn't count that as being a real marriage yet. And so later that day we had a religious ceremony back on the property, back on the community, and yeah, and then I went home with him that night and it was just like, okay, this is wild him that night and it was just like okay, um, this is wild. And um, the first night we both just laid there in bed like next to each other, just silent, and didn't say a word, and we were just like, uh, you know so awkward how well, did you know him at this?

Speaker 1 41:05

point. I didn't know him, like I had seen him in church a couple times and I knew that I was going to marry him because they had told me, but I didn't know him on any like we'd never had like actual real conversations Anyway. And so we laid there next to each other and we were both like we're supposed to go to church the next day because it was a Saturday and I was like let's not go to church, I don't want anyone to stare at us Like I don't want to go to church. And you know, and we never, ever got intimate or anything till after, after we both left and all of that, which is kind of wild, because we weren't taught anything about it, so obviously we weren't going to rush into doing it. We weren't taught anything about it, so obviously we weren't going to rush into doing it.

Speaker 1 41:52

And I was Cade's first wife and so he didn't really know what he was supposed to do. Like you know he said earlier, he was like you would think there would be a handbook or something on, like okay, this is what you do. But it wasn't until a year after we were married, when we had both left the religion and we got got together outside of the religion that we were like, oh yeah, you know that's what this is.

Speaker 1 42:18

But I know that there's several girls my age that, again, just like you said with rulin's wife um, got raped on their wedding night, you know, and it's just awful and I'm just so grateful that I had a man that was kind and gentle and listened to me and yeah, and didn't force himself on me. I mean, it's just, it's so awkward anyway when you have never have like we're closed from neck to ankle our whole life and then, just leaving and getting to learn all that was a lot of information.

Speaker 2 42:57

Yeah, you would think that at least, if not the females, that they would train the males because they want them to have more children. So this is how you do it, this is what you should be doing, kind of thing, and but they sort of like just expected people to just know, like how, how to, how to go about it and yeah, it's so weird to me.

Speaker 1 43:18

And then, yeah, just not knowing was scary to just be like.

Speaker 2 43:23

Oh well, I don't know, you have like to call him a certain name. Was there certain ways that you had to address him and communicate with him?

Speaker 1 43:32

Not really, they called him your priesthood head, like your leader, like your husband was always your priesthood head, but we didn't really have to address him by any certain name, right, it was just like known that that's who he was.

Speaker 2 43:50

Right, just like known that that's who he was, so Right. And so if you disobeyed him or you said no to him for something, would that be considered bad for you, like a sin almost.

Speaker 1 43:59

Yeah, and that's part of the reason why I even ended up leaving and everything was because I started to say no to him and I started to be like, well, I actually don't know that I want to be married and I don't really want to do that and I don't want to wait on you and I'm 16, and I don't really want to do your laundry and maybe you could do your own laundry, you know. And just, I was being a rebel if you would, and it was considered very, you know, disobeying. And so him being my priesthood head, was like trying to encourage me to oh, we need to do better. You're not doing what we need. The prophet needs us to do this. And I was just like no, and so I was kind of the rebel and ended up leaving first because I was just like I don't like this, this isn't great.

Speaker 2 44:46

Love it. How did you leave? What was the procedure?

Speaker 1 44:54

it? How did you leave? Like what was the procedure? So I actually was pretty lucky in that aspect.

Speaker 1 44:57

My parents were kind of sick of me rebelling and like, were just kind of fed up with me, like, oh my gosh, this teenage girl she won't get me, she won't stay married, you know, she won't do what we need her to do. And so one of my aunts had left like 20 years ago now, like 40, but years and years ago, and I had never met her. But she had left the religion and she agreed to take me in, and so my parents just took me and dropped me off at her house. Oh wow, I had never met her and I'd never, like ever, seen her in real life. And they just took me and dropped me off there because she said she would take me in.

Speaker 1 45:32

And so that was wild and like a lot of stress for me to be like, oh my gosh, this is a whole new world this is. You know, there's so much information to intake in that, but. But so it was a little bit easier for me to leave, I think, physically, than a lot of the girls, but emotionally it was really really hard to grasp that what I was giving up was forever and it was my salvation and it was my eternity. And you know, I knowing that when I left, I was leaving all my friends and I was leaving everybody that I knew and I was leaving my family, it was really hard leaving all my friends and I was leaving everybody that I knew and I was leaving my family. Um, it was really hard, uh, but I think I just had this pull of just there has to be something more like I can't, this can't be all there is.

Speaker 1 46:23

You know, this, this can't be it. I wasn't born to do this, you know. And just like I couldn't ever shake that feeling of like there must be more to life than this.

Reconnecting with Husband and Finding Freedom

Speaker 2 46:37

What was it like for your family that stayed in to have to, you know, tell the priesthood or tell the prophet that, look, one of our daughters is left. Was there a lot of punishment? Was there a lot of shame around that?

Speaker 1 46:49

Yeah, there's tons of shame around if you leave, and I had already created a lot of that shame for my parents because I had been the rebel that didn't want to stay married and I, you know, I wanted to move back to my parents' house and I had created kind of a scene that way, and so I think, in a way, it was a relief for me to leave for them, but it was also like very shaming, like their daughter had left, you know, and now she was never going to go to heaven, they were never going to see her again, you know, and there's this shame around it. Um, that's just so damning, you know, so final and so damning, and it puts their, their family, in the shadows. If you would, you're just not as good of a family if you have people that are leaving, you know, and so I always joke, but, like Mulan, dishonor on you, dishonor on your family you know, dishonor on your cow.

Speaker 1 47:42

You know all of that I always say that phrase just like for funny, but it's true, Like it was just like the biggest shame for them and hard for them. I'm sure to like justify it. And true, like it was just like the biggest shame for them and hard for them, I'm sure to like justify it and talk about it um but I already knew, like I'd already felt that sense of I didn't belong when I had left my husband and moved back to my parents.

Speaker 1 48:03

Very briefly, then, it was this just shame everywhere I turned right and what about for your husband?

Speaker 2 48:10

how did he come to terms with this and realize that, hey, like, actually I don't want to be a part of this as well?

Speaker 1 48:16

so he we were actually talking about it on a different podcast the other day and he said that when he came home and I had all of my stuff moved out of the house and I was no longer there, we'd only been married for like eight weeks, like it had been that long.

Speaker 1 48:37

Then he was like, when that happened I just packed up all my stuff and left and I never knew, because I just was like I don't want to talk to him, I don't know him, I don't have anything, I don't have anything to do with him, like whatever he can live his life, you know, and so I didn't really care or didn't know when he left, but he said it was when he came home and all my stuff was gone that he was like F, this I'm not going to be a part of this anymore.

Speaker 1 49:01

And then he had left the religion and moved to Salt Lake.

Speaker 2 49:09

So moved out of where we were at. That's crazy Cause. Yeah, you would think that, like he would, uh, try to, like you know, have more wives and, you know, be more deeper into it, but it's, it's great that you kind of, you know, inspired him to take that kind of stance and just be like no, I'm going to do this for myself. Um, did, did you notice that there were other people also that kind of were empowered by your decision?

Speaker 1 49:38

Not for a couple years, I don't think it was for at least a year or so later that some of my friends reached out and started to leave and started to talk to me and then, yeah, like I said, I've got dang near every single one of my siblings are out of it now and so a lot of them have reached out and I've had a lot of impact on that and been their safe space to leave and come to. And you know, there's a lot of things and good that we've done, but it took a while for people to reach out because I was, you know, so evil.

Speaker 2 50:05

Yeah, yeah, imagine that. How long did it sort of take you to accept that you're gonna be fine outside of it?

Speaker 1 50:18

how do I remind myself that on the daily it's a constant thing.

Speaker 1 50:25

I I talk to my husband about it a lot and we do a lot of I say a lot of self-therapy with ourselves, but, um, of just like reminding ourselves that we are okay and not looking for that external validation.

Speaker 1 50:39

It took me a long time, a long time, to feel comfortable making a decision, to feel comfortable in my own skin, to even be able to, you know, not need Cade's constant approval, not need my husband's constant approval to feel okay with that. So I don't know if that I ever will be like oh, I'm good now, you know, I'm healed, you know. But I think that it's just a constant reminder for me of just like you are enough, you're okay, you're safe, you know, um, for me, I'm just like you are enough, you're okay, you're safe. You know, because when your whole childhood has been built around such deep fear and shaming, it is in your soul that you have to keep reminding yourself like I am safe, right, I am okay, and it it's hard, it's a lot, and there's a lot, of a lot of therapy and a lot of things you can do, but when it's an ingrained belief, it's really, really a lot of work to get over that.

Speaker 2 51:39

Yeah, I know there's a thing called deprogramming therapy. Is that the kind of therapy that you took, and can you walk me through? How does that work?

Speaker 1 51:47

I actually haven't done deprogramming therapy. I might need to. Still, I did a lot of like EMDR and I've done a lot of talk therapy, a lot of trauma therapy. I worked with a trauma therapist for a lot of years but most of it has been us just really finding joy and finding the things that make us feel good and really leaning towards that and, like I'm talking like nature therapy, we do a lot of mountain biking, we do a lot of hiking, we do a lot of getting outside with our kids and we do a lot of self-therapy with ourselves.

Speaker 1 52:25

Like I said, we talk a lot about it when we're talking about something as in-depth as this. I think one of the reasons that mine and Cade's marriage has worked out is because both of us understand the depth of brainwash that we've came from right. Both of us understand the fear and the shaming and all of that, and so we've worked hard and you know we do a lot of joking about it and I'm sure you saw my Instagram. I do a lot of like making light of it, because if I can't laugh at my trauma, then you know nobody else can.

Speaker 2 53:01

That's true. No, that's true.

Speaker 1 53:04

A lot of it has just been a learning process, and I think one of the biggest things we focus on is that we're not going to pass this on to our kids and our kids are not going to have to deal with this, and so we've just been so solid in stopping it and breaking the cycle and figuring it out, how to break every cycle that we possibly could, every financial barrier, every education barrier, everything that we could for our kids, every financial barrier, every education barrier, everything that we could for our kids that we didn't have that support in, that we had to figure out from the ground up and that we've had to learn from absolutely nothing.

Speaker 1 53:40

And we I mean it's kind of amazing. We've both put ourselves through school, we helped each other with that. I have a master's degree in nursing and Cade is a life flight air medical pilot for and flies helicopters, and we have, just like, done so much work, as far as even that goes, in just providing a better life and creating a better life instead of just wishing we could you know, so I think a lot of it is action versus sitting and talking about it too is we've taken a lot of action.

Speaker 2 54:18

So I mean I got to give you credit because I mean life for a person. I mean I was born and raised in a city, I was exposed to everything under the sun and there's still things that I struggle with, you know and so I can imagine like for you, you've literally lived two complete different worlds. To have to shed certain understandings of the world or certain beliefs that you were taught were bad. It's really hard as an adult because the more we age, the more we become more set in our ways and our mentalities. We age, the more we become more set in our ways and our mentalities. So to have to do a complete 180 shift is hard. And then to have children and understand and accept that they might have completely differing opinions and they're going to stand up to you and be like no, mom, I don't agree. For you to have to, you know, be okay with that and celebrate that as well is I can't. I just I can't imagine it. I just can't imagine it. I really can't imagine it.

Speaker 1 55:16

It's definitely just exactly like you said. It feels like two different lifetimes, like I look at my life in the religion and my life before me and Cade, and it feels like I feel like I should be like 50 or 60 years old and I'm only 38,. You know, and I'm like I feel like I have lived enough lifetimes in all of this that I should be like at least 60 years old. You know, like come on.

Speaker 1 55:42

But, I also look at it and I I think that when my kids do stand up for up to me and when they do push back, I celebrate that in that I've created a safe space that they can, because I was never allowed to do that, I was never allowed to have a voice and I was never allowed to question, and so when my kids question me, I'm excited, you know, and yes, there's some times where I'm like, shut the fuck up and just do what I said, like I want to be, like no, just do it. Because I said but then I'm like, no, just look at it, as you've created a spot that they feel safe enough to challenge you and you should, like you should be able to answer those questions and have a reason why you know it shouldn't just be because I said so I don't, I don't agree with that on parenting, and so I I think those are the things that we celebrate in, that is, that you know we have been able to create that for our kids.

Speaker 1 56:40

And it is wild. It's wild to think what you can do in one generation Right, and it really makes me like question the narrative where people are like well, they, your parents, did their best and it's just like did they.

Speaker 2 56:58

That was their best it's just like did they?

Speaker 1 57:00

that was their best, like you know. Like man, I sure hope that my best is a little bit better than that, because that was not fun, you know yeah and so I don't know. I hold empathy for them in the circumstances they had and at the same time it was not, not right, you know so.

Speaker 2 57:17

That makes sense. How did you and your husband reconnect again after?

Finding Joy and Community After Leaving

Speaker 1 57:24

Long story short is I reached out to him to talk about getting a divorce because I was legally married to him, right, so I couldn't go to school, I couldn't do anything because he was my legal guardian, and so when you get married underage in Canada, then your parents sign your custody over to your husband. Actually, that we, since we had been married, that I started reaching out and asking him, like trying to find him and talk to him, and that's when I found out that he had left and he was living in Salt Lake, but he'd left the religion. And I was kind of like, oh, that's interesting, you know. And so we started talking on the phone and we just kind of started having conversation about, well, I guess, yeah, come to Salt Lake and we'll figure out, you know, get a divorce and we'll do all these things.

Speaker 1 58:20

Well, I went to Salt Lake and I met up with him and I was enamored and I was just like, oh my gosh, this kid is like he's completely different.

Speaker 1 58:31

You know, he's wearing a t-shirt, he's all tan, he's like he's out in the sun, he's working out, he's buff. Here I am a 17 year old like just like, oh my gosh, like wow, you're kind of hot, you know, um, and I mean it doesn't out that I didn't really have any friends or know many people, but I was just like wow, um, well, we hung out and we didn't talk about getting a divorce, not once, and it was just kind of like we talked about all of the things we were learning, like we talked about new music. He introduced me to Metallica and like we're like talking about all these things that are all brand new, like friends, and like the season finale was on and you know, like all this stuff that we had never experienced, that now we're both experiencing for the first time. That was just amazing, right. And then he came up to Canada with one of our mutual friends. And that's when I kind of approached him and was like hey, what if we just you know, give this a shot in

Speaker 1 59:34

like know, um, and then we, we ended up like he. He was like, okay, like maybe let's give it a shot. We ended up going swimming and stuff, and I joke, and I'm like he. And then he took his shirt off and I was like, oh you know, that wasn't something we were used to, yeah, and I was like, and he was so hot, I was was like, oh my gosh, you know, and now I'm 17 at the time, so I was, of course, attracted to him, yeah, and so we, yeah, we ended up talking and creating a friendship. And then, yeah, I just moved to Utah with him, yeah, and I told him, hey, well, I guess if it doesn't work out, we can just get divorced.

Speaker 2 1:00:16

Yeah, exactly Worst case scenario which we originally planned from the beginning. Anyway.

Speaker 1 1:00:34

Do you reckon that you two would have been together had it not been for this FLDS debacle? I don't think so, because I don't know that I ever would have talked to him again had we not been legally married. I think that if we hadn't been legally married, I probably would have been like see you later, you know, and never, really ever, reached out to him again. I was almost like I had to, because I needed to get a divorce in order to like come on, because I was legally married, right, and so I don't think that no, I think it was we would have not talked to each other ever again. Imagine that.

Speaker 2 1:01:04

Imagine that, okay, that's one thing that they did right here you gotta give them credit for. But I wonder, like I wonder what it must have been like for your parents and your siblings, and like everyone inside the group, to be like what. They never even got a divorce at the end. What's going on here?

Speaker 1 1:01:22

Well, it was so funny because years later I heard that they were using us as a good example in that because God wanted them to be together, like that's why they're together is because God placed them together, and I was just like, no, that's not why we're together.

Speaker 2 1:01:38

Totally our choice, please.

Speaker 1 1:01:41

Wow, that's amazing, that's wild.

Speaker 2 1:01:45

What was it like then, both of you sort of unraveling and discovering basically this world together? I guess it must have been kind of like calming, like he must have been a comfort place for you because you had so much familiarity and you had a history, you know, being in the group and out the group. What would you say Like how was that for you both?

Speaker 1 1:02:07

Yeah, it was. He was very calming for me and he's always been and I say this like even through all of our you know struggles, if you would. He had always been super kind to me and he'd never been like aggressive or rude or like demanding. You know, he had tried to encourage me to do what the priesthood wanted back when we were in the religion and all of that, but he'd never been, never put me down or never like really made me uncomfortable, right, which I think like played in his favor because it made me feel like I could talk to him.

Speaker 1 1:02:40

And so when we did get together, I mean, obviously we had so much unraveling to do and we still like to this day unravel different things off of each other where we're like look back and we're like, oh yeah, like that didn't make sense, but we overall were just enamored with life, like we loved each other, we were excited to be together. We had this whole new freedom of dressing the way we wanted, of listening to music, of eating what we wanted, of doing what we wanted and obviously got pregnant very quickly because we didn't know about birth control. So we have a 19 year old, but yeah, so we, um, we're very excited about life and then we got pregnant and we were just like, oh my gosh, now we're going to be parents and we got to figure out how to be parents in this life, and so, um, yeah, it was a lot of work and a lot of like figuring things out as we went and a lot of, a lot of struggle and a lot of growing together. And, you know, we we learned so much together with each other and, yeah, I don't know, um, I think that it's still a process in what we're doing, though, like, I think we're still learning and growing and, um, yeah, just trying to be the best we can for our kids, you know.

Speaker 2 1:03:57

Yeah, yeah. What would you say was like one of the hardest things you've had to kind of deal with on a personal level on coming out.

Speaker 1 1:04:09

The loss of community and family was definitely one of my top things that I've grieved was definitely one of my top things that I've grieved, because I grew up in such a close community and I saw how close everybody was and how everybody helped with each other's kids and everybody helped with the families and everybody was like it was one big, huge family ultimately.

Speaker 1 1:04:30

And so leaving and feeling that loneliness and knowing that I didn't have that community and I didn't have my parents and I didn't have my siblings like that was the hardest part and emotionally still is. The hardest part is that I will never get that right. I will not have grandparents for my kids that are engaged and part of their life and I won't have those things or grandparents that come and help with my babies or you know, that was something that was so hard for me was doing all of that by myself and, at the same time, processing all of the newness of the world and figuring out how to go to school and how to do all of that and doing school with young children. Um, but doing it without a community and doing it without family was actually just so damn hard. Um, because I'd seen the support that there could be in community and that was just. It's still like I'm like where is my effing community?

Speaker 1 1:05:36

Like I need a community you know, and I'm still like trying to build that and find that, but it just it was really difficult for sure.

Speaker 2 1:05:48

I'm going to ask you one last question before we end. I have so many things to ask, but we'll cut it here. Last question to ask, but we'll cut it here. Last question For anyone that's sort of getting to know you today what are some things that you would want them or hope that they would know and understand about you kind of coming out and going through the life experience that you've gone through?

Speaker 1 1:06:13

I would just hope that they would approach with empathy, um, for not really understanding what it's like to be brainwashed. And um, for me, like one of my biggest things is I always try to find the good and I always try to find joy. And in therapy I learned it was called glimmers, and so I actually that's. My brand is glimmers. But glimmers are the opposite of triggers, right, and so when you have triggers, they're bad, bad things, but glimmers are those little glimpses of hope. And for me, I've just focused so hard on finding those, even in the hardest and deepest and darkest moments, of just finding something to be grateful for and finding little things that just will spark joy and keep going along the way and finding the good. And I know it's not possible, and I'm not talking like toxic positivity, where it's like just be grateful. I'm not I toxic positivity where it's like just be grateful. You know I'm not. I'm talking about authentic, like you know what, let's, let's just find some little tiny little thing to be grateful for, you know? But, um, yeah, just that, I've, I've been through a lot, but that doesn't define who I am and I'm yeah yeah so I don't know,

Speaker 2 1:07:35

I love that, share the work that you're doing right now with us and your socials and everything. So if anyone wants to learn a little bit more how they can reach you it, and so we're excited for that to come out.

Speaker 1 1:08:00

We just started sharing on socials not too long ago, so it's been kind of a new thing for me, but my Instagram is and MFJ. And then I also have TikTok, which is Cades Babe, so C-A-D-E-S-E-A-B-E, and I have a few things on both of those. I'm hoping to build them up more. I have a company called Glimmers, where we focus on bringing joy, and I have clothing that I designed that sparks joy, so that's really fun. And then also I work as a nurse. So that's, that's who I am.

Speaker 2 1:08:31

Congratulations to you honestly for like how far you've come and how you know you've really turned adversity into something really beautiful. So, yeah, hats off to you for that thank you so much. I appreciate that thanks for being on multispectrum and sharing your journey with us today yeah, thank you for having me, it's been fun if you enjoyed the episode and would like to help support the show, please follow and subscribe.

Speaker 2 1:09:01

You can rate and review your feedback on any of our platforms listed in the description. I'd like to recognize our guests who are vulnerable and open to share their life experiences with us. Thank you for showing us we're human. Also, a thank you to our team who worked so hard behind the scenes to make it happen. Stefan Menzel, lucas Piri the show would be nothing without you. I'm Jenica, host and writer of the show, and you're listening to Multispective. Thank you.