092 How I recovered from a heroin addiction

In this episode, Leon recounts a childhood cracked by coercive control, a slide from party drugs to 17 years on heroin, and the moment a tube platform changed his life. We unpack the tools that broke denial: a blunt warning, a rigorous NHS program, mindfulness, and the slow rebuild into purpose.

• identity split between England and Scotland shaping early outlook
• his mom's affair, and the treacherous life of violence and drugs that ensued
• coercion and control dynamics in the home
• adolescent self-medication and early substance experimentation
• heroin’s appeal as warmth and silence from trauma
• functional using, secrecy, and eventual isolation
• Hierarchy of drugs
• near overdose, suicidal ideation
• key worker’s intervention and 12-week outpatient rehab
• CBT, grief work, exposure therapy, and mindfulness practices
• rebuilding with journaling, music, movement, and service work
• acceptance, partial forgiveness, and the role of consistent allies
• current mission: conversations on shadow work and healing

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

I was seeing drugs, I was seeing police interventions, I was seeing sort of gang culture, I was seeing robberies and then burglaries and fighting. We drink aware problems, we smoke aware of problems, drinking was increasing in my house, uh, drug use was uh increasing in my house. I was thinking to myself at 13 and 14, I need to get out of here. But heroin, it was safe, it was warm, it was exactly what I needed at 19 just to shut out everything else. I'm staying there for the next 17 years. I've used I has a Palmer Valley on top, I nearly accidentally OD'd tube station, train was coming towards me, and I was a consideration of thinking just to jump in front of that.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood? Where were you born, where were you raised, and what was your childhood like?

SPEAKER_00 1:04

From a UK perspective, I'm a little bit of a hybrid. I have a Scottish tinge to my accent. So I grew up and went to school in Edinburgh, the capital city, Scotland. But I was actually born in England and lived there until I was about the age of one and a half through a sort of uber nationalist Scottish filter. Um I'm a little bit a traitor in that regard, but actually it gives me quite a nice balance, like understanding a little bit about English culture and what that looks like, but then also having that sort of schooling in Scotland and everything that that comes with that as well. So there's like a real fiery passion stereotypically.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Why do you say though, that like there is this kind of traiterness to it? Like, what's the deal with that?

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Well, I think if you look at it through a historical filter, England are the oppressor, right? Um and Scotland's like the little country on top. England's the one that holds all the power and holding all the money and then the control and then the the sort of uh I suppose the political power as well. Whereas like we're the little country, we're only five million people, but then what that brings, as I said, it brings that kind of real passion and real fire, and then makes you probably fight harder than you need to do sometimes, which manifests in different ways as you get older. But I kind of like having you know eyes on both, if you will. Yeah, puts me in quite a quite a nice position, I feel.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

Yeah. So tell me a little bit more though about how was like schooling like, how was your family situation like, siblings, all of that?

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Well, I'm an only child, which is a gift and a curse, I suppose. I suppose it's a uh a gift is that I learned to be by myself real quick when I was a youngster and didn't really need other people for me to have fun. But then I suppose looking through, yeah, being real about it as well. I used to sort of want a brother or really want a sister. So as I said, it's that kind of gift in curse aspect. Growing up, I grew up, uh grandparents were like um tradespeople, so they they worked um in in opticians and they were like real rocks for me growing up. And at the time, I remember even my earliest memory is about three or four, being at my grandmother and grandfather's house, eating well, getting looked after, getting spoiled. And then my mum at the time, she was like a business owner and had a beautiful house. I suppose we lived um, I would say, uh a middle class life. It was quite idyllic in a way, and everything was kind of cooking along nicely, and then you know, one of these life moments happens. Yeah, she met somebody who was a little bit rougher, a little bit readier, but a bad boy, unfortunately. And yeah, she ended up having an affair with him, and then from there we lived this kind of rogue bad boy lifestyle, which was an offshoot of that male personality. So then I ended up living in the UK we call it a council estate. We lived in like a big high-rise building. I was a nice kid in inverted commas, and then I was surrounded by kids who maybe didn't have as much access to things for want of a better phrase. Um, and that was a real tough transition.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

Looking back on things, you probably might may not have realized this when you were younger, but maybe looking back on it now, feel like you could sense that things were off between your mum and dad? Was there some kind of relationship problems going on between them?

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Yeah, my dad was gone by the time I was like one and a half, so this would have been sort of my my stepdad, if you will. And I actually caught my mum kissing the rogue bad boy behind the shop that she owned with the guy as well. And I think I was maybe like nine, I've got this distinct memory walking around, and you know, she's like kissing this guy. Yeah, I don't see kissing like that on a on a television show. I was like, what are you doing? Like went crazy at her shouting and bailing. And then we had as things manifested, yeah, she ended up leaving and walking away from her business, her mortgage, everything away into this sort of other life and this other existence. And yeah, that 180 thing and trying to assimilate with peers that were really from a different background than me, and were a lot more rough and and and ready, and taught me a lot of things that I probably didn't need to be taught at nine and ten and elevenths.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

The risk to take to have you know a certain kind of stability for your child, and then to leave that kind of stable home and that stable ground for someone else for a new love. I'd imagine for her too, it was an absolute shock that you saw this and it was like now things are gonna have to change. Like, what what was that like when you found her?

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Yeah, the moment itself, I'll just remember being like really emotional and being really young and just not understanding. And I suppose after that there's a kind of autopilot, there's a shock, there's a kind of trauma response to it. But really, where it kind of hit home, how 180 my life has become, is that I'm then in uh a sort of primary school, the last year of primary school, and I'm surrounded with these kids who are, you know, were shoplifting, burning roofs, were as I said, it was just unruly compared to this sort of pretty white fence, two up, two down kind of idyllic lifestyle. And for a time that was kind of exciting because I was learning all these kind of new skills, but then when I would go to like these kids' house for like dinner and stuff, I was seeing I was seeing drugs, I was seeing police interventions, I was seeing a sort of gang culture, I was seeing, you know, robberies and then burglaries and fighting, and I was just exposed to that level of violence and aggression, really, that that sort of idyllic middle class lifestyle that I'd had, it was, as I say, the complete polar opposite to that. And looking back on it now, sort of I want to go back and tell that kid it's gonna be alright, but I was just running on on impulse. I was just reacting to the environment that I was dropped into.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Yeah. What was your stepfather's role in this? Did he try to keep in contact with you, or was he also like, okay, well, you know, this is not my kid, so I must have been like nine, and it was really a distinct memory.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

And he was like really soft-spoken guy, and he said to me, Go live for your grandmother and grandfather. That was the advice he gave me. So there was obviously an understanding there that whatever it was that the choice was for my mum, that choice wasn't going to be good for me in the long run. But again, that sort of that Freudian lens that I've sort of understood as I've got older, there was no way I was leaving my mum. Like it, it was just wasn't on the cards. And there was further intervention points, not by him specifically, but by my grandfather and grandmother, as time moved on and the situation developed. But again, I was like, nah, I'm a mummy's boy, and I'm staying there. Maybe it was like I could a bit of foreshadowing and I could see how bad this was gonna go, and there was a protection thing. Then also, you know, you know, us boys and us men, right? Who's our our best friend, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:08

You've now come across this new man that's entered your mum's life. You're angry at him because your mom's done something very bad. This kind of you're meeting him on on very unfortunate grounds. What was your initial impression of him?

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Well, the first thing was um I was to refer to him as Uncle, which was like, well, and I couldn't I can't even call him like a name. I didn't like have a name for it. So yeah, I just wouldn't refer to him as anything. So basically, kind of just to try I just try to ignore him as much as possible. So like go to school, you know, just direct all communications through my mum. Like there was no way that um that I was gonna engage with this person. But then as time moved on, I got to 11 and I got to 12 and I got to 13, and I'm in this like really high population area with a lot of violence and aggression. And somebody who comes from that environment, uh, he started to get more involved with me and try to explain kind of how I was gonna have to maneuver and navigate this space when I was about 11 and then 12 and 13. But then on the left hand side, I was starting to notice that drinking was increasing in my house, uh, drug use was uh increasing in my house, and then every weekend, maybe starting up at 11, my mum would have sunglasses on on a Saturday morning, or she'd like move to the side and she'd be like, Oh, and I would be like, What the what's wrong with you? Sword, or obviously that care and concern comes out. Um, and yeah, what I know now that she was subject to really, really acute uh domestic violence that was accelerating week after week as the substance use got more and more acute, domestic abuse got more and more acute, the coercion and the control uh generally speaking. And I suppose that was the first window, and when I when I was thinking to myself at 13 and 14, I need to get out of here. That's the first time I'd ever wanted just to just to go. So, yeah, that was um a difficult realization at first, I feel.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Sounds like your mum did a pretty good job of keeping you in the dark away from all of this violence, even though you were sharing the same roof.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Yeah, and she was like working two jobs and then turning up at work, like beat up and stuff as well. And obviously, there was concern from my grandparents, and and yeah, by the time I got to like 15, 16, like everybody knew what type of person this was. But I suppose what I understand now, fast forward sitting here as an adult, is that coercion and control piece, and then the shame and the guilt, and then thinking about what she'd left behind. I had no understanding of that kid of how powerful that negative magnetism is. Um, but yeah, as I sit here today and having worked in that environment with people who've gone through similar things, I really understand what they the mechanisms are and how powerful they are. So yeah, she'd done a really good job at keeping it for me for long enough, but eventually, as the as the abuse accelerated, definitely, and it was more and more apparent, like it couldn't be ignored anymore.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Was there any violence targeted towards you at any point?

SPEAKER_00 11:22

Um, I'm quite a big unit, I would say. So maybe like 191 centimeters. So there was always like this threat of that when I was like 11, 12, 13, but when I got to 14, 15, it was like yeah, I might pick on somebody my own size. Um so yeah, there was like a couple of fights, but yeah, I was never really fearful of him as an entity. I was more fearful if I do something, what that means is a consequence from a mum. So there was a control and coercion mechanism going on with me, even though I couldn't quite see it at the time.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

Yeah. Sort of like a dynamic where you feel that protectiveness towards your mum, and he is reading that you are very, very sensitive when it comes to topics of your mom. So he would use your mom as leverage to kind of have power over you in a sense.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Yeah, which is quite complex human dynamics for developmental tenancy, but it's interesting having worked in similar environments with complex couples, fast forward to like being an adult, I can see how that works and it is a real thing.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

Yeah. They've done interviews with a lot of women who've experienced domestic violence and relationships. Um, and one of the common things that many of them had experienced was a sick a cycle of it, you know, from their very first relationship and then it led on to the next and to the next, and until they were able to sort of really, really do some self-work to be able to kind of create those boundaries, not to allow those kind of relationships to enter their lives and to be very aware and wary of them. But you know, it's interesting to hear that with your mom, the situation was she actually did have fairly decently healthy relationships. And it was much later in her life that she kind of found herself being attracted to someone who really exhibited those kind of abusive behaviors and struggled to let to leave it. So I guess my question to you is what was your mom's childhood and upbringing like?

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Yeah, I can see that sort of underneath my my grandmother and grandfather, they were they were socialites and she was left a lot by herself. Um I don't know exactly, but I do know that there was unhealthy dynamics for other members of the family. Yeah, we we've never really discussed that to be honest. And then I suppose that if if I'm going to be totally objective about it, you get the middle class lifestyle, you've got the quiet man who's, you know, very consistent and very methodical, and some people sometimes they they they get bored with that, right? They they don't see that as exciting or they're getting old, and they want to maybe relive a bit of their childhood or things that they missed out, and they want that spark. And I have seen it with with other people as well, where you kind of where you seek that and you crave that, and maybe that person doesn't give you that. But sometimes the grass isn't always greener, right? And it's just really unfortunate. The person she picked was a narcissistic sociopath, which was the that that's about as kind as it can be about that person, you know, like upon reflection, actually look at it through a pathological filter or a diagnosis-led filter, because that's what it really was.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

Yeah, kind of looking for that real, like that crazy push and pull, that passion in that relationship where you know you're feeling so hurt and so vulnerable one minute, but then this person is apologetic for the way they hurt you, so they're you know, love bombing you and giving you everything, and you're just like drawn into this kind of fairy tale feeling again. Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

And then just one thing uh to add to that as well is is that sort of savior piece as well. Uh in my some of my adult relationships as well. I've I've never caught myself quite at that acute end of sociopathic narcissism, but I have seen where you're trying to save or you forgive somebody multiple times. Um, I think in a certain way all relationships go through that push and pull, but this was just on the really extreme end of the end of that case, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Do you have any specific instances or moments that when you look back on you can really remember very clearly that really stood out to you?

SPEAKER_00 16:15

Yeah, I the one I dream about to this day is like I've got an image, and we're certain in in central Edinburgh, like there's a big vo a dormant volcano, right? And a big car. And it's like really historic, and there's loads of like old buildings where old queens had their heads cut off and where Queen Elizabeth used to stay, and it's like pitch black. And there's like maybe two or three cars, so like you've got like the lights of the cars coming. My mum's got a black and white dress, and her hair's all over the place, she's disheveled, and she's running ahead of me. And I'm running, I'm shouting after her. Mum mum shouting, shouting, shouting, and she's like, I have to get away, he's gonna kill me, he's gonna kill me. And I'm just running after her, and we're running in the direction towards my my grandmother's house. I think that that encapsulates that whole experience where I'm literally running after her, trying to save her, um, and seeing what that person had kind of done to her. That's probably one of the most detailed memories I've got. And I've kind of checked in with her since, and I was like, that definitely happened, right? Yeah, that definitely happened. I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_02 17:20

That's really scary. I mean, I can imagine like your like body goes into this immediate shock, into this immediate fight or flight. You're like in this situation where you're like, like it being so visceral, that moment is just like, I need to do something right now. So at this point, kind of like living at home, not really liking this man, feeling a little bit uncomfortable, but feeling protective of your mom, and then you're in a neighborhood that is not very safe, and you're a teenager growing up so easily influenced. How did how did this sort of like neighborhood that you were in, how did how did all of that sort of influence you?

SPEAKER_00 17:53

It's kind of interesting, is that a lot of my peers who we grew up in the the sort of mid to late nine, this wasn't a me story, so a lot of the household had similar things. So you've got disenfranchised backgrounds, you've got lack of opportunities, you've got the socioeconomic uh climate as well, which was heavily impacted by the conservative uh government in in this uh country as well. So you had all that draining on local resources, and then family life was tough. It was um mindfulness and wellness and all these things like that just wasn't on the table. It was we cope with our problems silently, you know, we we drink aware of problems, we smoke aware of problems, we don't really talk about things, we don't talk about our feelings. That culture happened quite a lot, and and there was a huge burden on suppose um on the women trying to hold together these kind of family environments. Yeah, looking back on it, a lot of us went through um a similar thing, but that doesn't kind of negate my own story, and I think that a really important thing to mention, we had um we had a couple of interventions from my grandmother and grandfather where they were starting to maybe plant some common sense seeds, and we moved out of that really high density of violence project area or council estate, and we moved back into the city centre. And maybe for about six months things quietened down a little bit. Um, I then changed schools and sort of the the people um were a lot of people that I'd known from really early childhood, so I kind of gathered my senses, and this is when I was about maybe 15 and then 16 and 17. The sort of final insult, and I suppose this was another pivot point where I started to really deteriorate in terms of mental health, and then I suppose substance use was I come home one day and they basically said that they're moving out and I'm left in this house. So I've got this like really beautiful two-bedroom house in Edinburgh, but it's like I was so green, like um I could cook an egg, which is great, you know, I could make a pot noodle, so like I had a bed, I had a music. So I was like, off you go then, crack on with your life, gone, go.

SPEAKER_02 20:05

What you went 15, 16 at this point. Six. That's child neglect, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Yeah. Um, but again, I was so young and and so green, I was like, by all means, out you go. Yeah, that was like my best friend at the time, he came to sort of live with me on and off, and then we just went off our heads, so started to use a lot of kind of party drugs, smoking a lot, drinking a lot, parties, craziness, all that. So between 16, 17, 18, that was kind of that that was the path I took um after that. So I just thought, you know what? I'm done with my mom, I'm done with this guy, I'm done with responsibilities, I'm done with adults, like let me just let me breathe a bit here.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

Your grandparents, they knew that you were living on your own at this point.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

And they were also had rather you live on your own, deal with life at the age of 16 on your own, than take you on or fight to have you to live with them?

SPEAKER_00 21:04

No, they'd be begging me to live there since since I'd um yeah, since I'd left uh the first house we were at. So ages 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, I went there every weekend, every weekend. My grandma is like, please, please, please, I'm not leaving my mum, please, not leave my mum. It was like that sort of pendulum. But I think by the time I was like 16, 17, she could see that yeah, I was done with, I suppose, adult interventions completely. I I just I think in some sense I was wise enough to say that's enough now. I'm drawing a boundary. If if you lot are gonna leave me, no problem, I'll be alright. Little did I know.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

And this is sort of like this start of where it all spirals for you because you're not at the age at this point to sort of like heal healthily. Naturally, you're gonna go for whatever you get pulled into and you just happen to have the wrong company sort of at the wrong time.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

With or without company, in a certain sense, I I was done with up here and what I'd seen. I was just like over it. It's like, let me just go do this, and as I said, just jumped health or leather into getting high, basically. That was the that was my way to self-medicate what I'd spent the past like eight, nine, ten years going through.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

How does it sort of like spiral into something bigger or larger?

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Well, for me, it was never enough, right? So it was like amphetamines, and uh amphetamines, like they take you to here, but then they kind of leave you at that point, and it's like, okay, I'm high, I'm talking too much, right? Okay, what now? Let me try MDMA or ecstasy, okay. You love everybody, last for four hours, five hours, then you're coming down, and everybody has an existential crisis, and then you wake up, I'm like, no, I'm bored of that. Then I tried kind of hallucinogens, so I tried like mushrooms and LSD and all the derivatives of that. I would say I would classify them separately from the other ones that I tried, just because they were the only ones where I was never like the next again. They all must get more of them, or I was trying to self-medicate. I always went on some sort of journey with them, sometimes really heavy journey as well. But um, I always found them in a certain sense, maybe educational was a bit strong, but definitely insightful, that would be a better way for me to do it. But then I was always stepping up the risk factor, so always doing more, always trying something new, and then eventually I got to the kind of top table substances, if you will, or substances that are harmful. And I think with the heroin, that was the first one that I tried. I was like, okay, like I can deal, I can deal with anything now. It was like it was safe, it was warm, it was exactly what I needed at 19 just to shut out everything else. So there was like um I think with all substances, there's like a little bit of a window, and with drug use, there's a window where it's alright in inverted commas, and then hopefully what you do is you grow out of that and then you put it down, and then you carry on being a sort of responsible citizen or human being. Even if like you're a weekender and you smoke some weed or whatever, like cool, God bless you. Um, but most people can kind of put it down. When I touched that drug, I was like, okay, I'm just I'm staying there for the next 17 years. That's where I stayed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

17 years, and you were, you know, into heroin, which is probably one of the most strongest kind of drugs one can take, I guess. But walk me through what was life like as a heroin user. What do you remember?

SPEAKER_00 24:39

Well, I started off like basically I got out of Edinburgh, so I'd been out, I'd been in all that trauma, developmental trauma. Then I went through that sort of party phase, and then as I say, picking up that drug, had this kind of niggling feeling. Whenever I'd sort of straighten up from it, I was like, Oh, that was too good. And then I was always like, I need to get more, and then be like, oh, but if you get more, so there was still a little bit of rationalization. I still had a kind of angle that this is probably not gonna pan out well for you, young man. So I made the decision just to get out of Edinburgh. So I was kind of lucky, I was quite nerdy when it came to the guitar as a kid. So I picked up my guitar, I got my my state benefits, my welfare check or whatever. I think it was like 70 quid and just come to London. It's like that's what I'm gonna do. Um, and come to London. So for a good couple of years, I managed to keep the hair and addiction to such a point. Um, I was still functioning as a musician as well, and you know, and managing to do like little jobs in between just to keep up that level of addiction and be a creative. So for the first couple of years, pretty functional. You know, didn't get to the point where I felt like I'd lost everything. So that first couple of years there was a sort of a fluffy window with it where I didn't really think it was going to be much of a problem, um, sort of day-to-day, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

So at this point, like you would say you wouldn't call yourself an addict at this point because you're still able to sort of like function.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

Yeah, my denial was strong at that point as well. But I again I suppose objectively nobody knew, and I was really secretive, which you'll find with addictive creates as well. So like I had like a little box, I kept it in my pocket, I would wait till opportune moments and amongst these creatives where it was like a quiet window, I'd disappear for a minute, splash my face, get myself together, go back, be Mr. Sociable again, you know. Um, and as I said, managed to keep that up for yeah, a good couple of years, maybe like two, three years. Went to New York, played all over like UK as well. So there there was a sense of functionality around it, even though inside I was probably I was becoming more and more crippled, if you will, in terms of emotional understanding.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Right. That's so interesting because I've always thought that people who take heroin, it's almost like tranquilizing, like that feeling is you almost go into this state of like absolute calm and you just kind of want to lie there. We don't have that kind of strength or that energy to function with it, whereas something like cocaine you can take it and you can function. You can get up and you get you know social and you have the energy to do things.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

No, I had the I had these like um really interesting jobs as well. So like low-paid jobs, but like for example, I worked for um Lloyd CSB and investments, so you'd see like all these investment bankers, and I used to think to myself, what are you guys up to? Because they're wired all the time. And so I'm in the toilet doing my thing, and then they're in the toilet doing their thing, which was the other way, and I'd be and then and then what used to happen was like you'd get this like sort of really really judgy. It's like they would look down on the heroin user, and then it's like, well, excuse me, well, you're in the bathroom and you're sniffing lines, like yeah, pretty much the same thing, but it's really interesting, and again, having studied, I suppose, drug culture and worked in recovery circles and supported people out of uh drug usage generally, it's really interesting. There is a kind of hierarchy in the drug world as well, where it's kind of I look down upon you. Oh, I'm an alcoholic, but I don't touch drugs, so it's like well, that's an interesting perspective to have. But um, yeah, back then I was able to do that sort of that hustle culture real well and self-medicating all the time in the background really secretively.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Yeah. I I do hear you when you talk about it being a hierarchy, because the hierarchy can be on so many different areas and levels, like alcohol, just because just by the mere fact that it's being sold anywhere and everywhere. So that's almost like, even though it's probably just as dangerous, if not more, just because it is legal and regulated, it is considered to be one of the highest forms. Then I'd imagine like stuff like marijuana is connected with, you know, just this hippie kind of culture, like, oh, chill vibes, cocaine. Well, that's gotta be, you've got to have the money to afford that kind of like drug. So therefore, you've got to be of a certain status and of a certain kind of level. And so there's almost like a role model look up to a cocaine user sense in that way. Would you agree that that's sort of how those hierarchies work?

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Yeah, and and you know, that and they're always changing as well, but really that that sort of that classic hierarchy is, and I've kind of seen that sitting in therapeutic groups as well, where again there's that sort of divide. And I think that some great research that if you look at um, I suppose the people who are let's use Manhattan as a as an example. So you've got people sniffing coke in a in a high rise in Manhattan who are predominantly white and middle class, but then you've got a black guy who's washed it up with some ammonia phosphate in the project. This guy is getting X amount of time in prison, and this white guy's walking away with, he's getting away with on the left-hand side, and there's like a really interesting split, even though the base substance is the same, the way that the society, I suppose, implements um uh the sort of crime and punishment aspects, I suppose that's what sets the hierarchy, right? And that's how it filters down to lowly people like myself.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

Do you think that like it, you know, often we associate as well like crime with things like methamphetamines, right? Meth and and those are the things that make people really paranoid or start hallucinating and delusions, therefore, that result in things like uh homicide and and all of that. Uh is it is is can cocaine also be a drug that can cause something like this or homelessness? Do you find people that Are homeless that also could be on other drugs other than the ones that we hear about?

SPEAKER_00 31:27

Through a homelessness filter, I would suspect. I don't know, I don't know exactly, but usually in my experience, I found it's poly substance misuse. And again, because you sit so low in terms of income generation, it's pretty much you get what you can get. And yeah, I suppose there's like a little bit of a sort of class divide when it comes to cocaine use as well. That you need, I suppose, in this country, maybe you need like 40 UK pounds or 50 UK pounds to get that, which is going to be a very different thing to maybe a homeless person who can get, I don't know, 10 UK pounds for a couple of rocks, right? There's a there's a real distinct sort of class barrier and obstacle um within that as well. But at a fundamental level, the harm being done on the individual is exactly the same. And and I think that when you understand that, um, I think that it sort of helps you reset your your boundaries a little bit and look at drug usage through a different filter.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

At what point for you did heroin go from being something that you kind of had control over? I know you talked about the denial, but you were still working on and you were still functioning on that. And at what point did that sort of turn for you?

SPEAKER_00 32:41

I think that um when I lost I suppose the ability to motivate myself to go out and hustle for it and go out and pick up these little jobs and go out and pretend I was social. I started to isolate myself more and more. Um, and any drug that you do, if you're sitting by yourself and doing it, that would be one bit of advice I would say. If you're sitting by yourself and you know, hoovering lines or drinking bottles of wine or what whatever it is is your thing, that's probably the reflection point where you need to have a serious conversation with yourself. And I've seen that, yeah, in therapy and in rehabilitation, I've seen that really starkly as I started to self-isolate when I when I lost the ability to even like pick up the guitar and express myself. The only way that I could express myself is when I was using that substance, that's when the wheel started to fall off. And I would say maybe got a window three years to start off with four years max where I was functional and inverted commas. The next five years was wrestling with that lack of meaning anymore to get up in the morning and then using as many ways just to sustain my addiction, and then um to sort of portion it up the last three years is when things went um code red, if you will.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

Walk me through some specific instances or moments that you can remember that really stand out to you during this period.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Um, yeah, I moved in with um a policeman's daughter, and I was like, I was using, and then I've used um Diasa Parma Valium on top, and I nearly accidentally OD'd. So that was like pivotal moment one. And she panicked and managed to like get me on my side and revive me. And yeah, my when I look back on it, like I was so in denial, I was just like laughed off almost, so put a kind of comedy slant about certain fact I just nearly died in the bed next to her, and yeah, that was one moment. Second one was being run over by the police, which I wasn't really conscious of, to be honest. I won't go into it for obvious reasons, but yeah, I got run over by the police and didn't really figure out the the consequences to that till like a couple of years later, till I was sitting at a doctor. Doctor was trying to give me psychotic medication, and I was refusing. I'm like, I may be X, Y, and Z, but I'm definitely not psychotic because I've had quite a good reading education through this process as well. And he actually read out to me that I had been ran over by the police, even though I can't really remember much of what happened because I was so high. So there was like another pivot point, and I suppose the last one and the most difficult one was um me and my kid's mother, our relationship dissolved, and um and not having access to my kids for a period of time. That was like the first time where to be really honest, I didn't want to live anymore, and I've never been to that point, and I have like this acute memory of being like a tube station, train was coming towards me, and I was a consideration and thinking, you know what, that's easier that journey, just to jump in front of that. Um and yeah, I suppose that that was the pivot point where I was like shit, like we're here. This is the end of this, or it's the end of me, and I think that that was yeah, that was the last one, maybe about 2015.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

2015, so that means you'd been you'd been using heroin and these other drugs for how long?

SPEAKER_00 36:21

In total, about probably about 20 years, but in terms of problematic drug usage, I would say yeah, a good 17 years. So that was like party drugs plus heroin.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

You know, a lot of people who take heroin, like they're they they realize that their dosage needs to increase every time because they realize that it's just not having that same effect, that feeling of like euphoria.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Was that true for you? No, it's it's sort of yeah, it's it's just enough to not withdraw by the end. So I wasn't getting like a high offer or a buzz by the end. It keep just keeps withdrawals away. That was it. And then what I was doing, I was using my access to the welfare and state medication, really, is the top-up to that. So whether that be kind of sleeping tablets or baits or benzodiazepines, I was using all the functionality which people like myself at that time, that's what you do, right? That's your survival mechanism. If you've not got the money for your chosen drug, let me find as many avenues to get something, just to get some peace of mind, some sleep, some solace. And that's what became at the end.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

So you weren't even looking for that high anymore. At some point, it just kind of stopped becoming about feeling that feeling.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

It was just Yeah, and in rehab, I I kind of reflected on that. So that's why I cut up that sort of that journey with that substance into parts where you've got that sort of first window where you're functional inverted, then there's a denial, then there's a middle bit where really you're not getting as high, and you're thinking, why is this not working for me anymore? And then there's that last bit where it's like, oh, this just doesn't work for me anymore. Like, what does? And because I knew that I was at the the top of the food chain in terms of uh substances, I was like, okay, my mental health's gone left here. That was like a real realization. And I suppose being yeah, suppose if you think of the environment now with toxic drug supply and the opioid or opioid crisis and nitosines, I don't know if I would have made it if that was going to be available for me at that time because my only way to go would be up that hierarchy or up that food chain even further.

SPEAKER_02 38:35

What about in terms of like your mom's role and your grandparents' role throughout this entire time that you were on these things?

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Well, my grandmother and grandfather they checked out um in 2003, unfortunately. So as much as that was sad and my heart was broken, I'm kind of glad in a way that they never got to see like the you know the back end of that process, really, because um, yeah, there would have been a lot of shame and guilt around that. And what's interesting, like my mum tried really hard to save me as well, because she managed to get away from that person who I mentioned at the start of this story as well. And she was living in London and she tried to pull as many levers to to save, if you will. But I suppose the lessons that like we both learned during that journey is like that was my choice, that was kind of where I was, that was my journey, and because our relationship had been so fractious, and because I was still angry in a way, like I just didn't want her to save me, it needed to be on my on my own merits. So yeah, but in fairness to her, she tried super hard.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

What what what do you think about when you I mean it sounds like you have a beautiful relationship with your mum today, but is there any part of you that harbors any resentment towards your mum for that difficult childhood and that difficult upbringing that could have led you here? Or do you feel like you've kind of let that go completely?

SPEAKER_00 40:05

It's interesting because in therapy a lot of the time the the goal is to give you the tools to reach a point of acceptance, you know, if you really have the fortitude or the smarts, is forgiveness. That's like the the final bit. And I think that I fluctuate in that forgiveness piece. And even though I'm I'm a lot older now and a lot wiser and a lot more secure in myself, there's still moments where you know you reflect back, or as I said to you earlier on that kind of dream moment, and you think, Really? Was that was that what I deserved? Sometimes that's the cards that you're dealt, right? It's like when you go to the card table, the dealer hands you out a hand, right? And you've got to try and make the best with the hand that you're dealt. And in a lot of the ways, that's the way that where my acceptance has come from is understanding that through my mum's eyes. Must have been difficult for her being 19 and having a child and you know, putting her own life in hold, and all the things that she would experience before I was like older. So, yeah, I accept what happened, but that that forgiveness piece is still a work in progress, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

So, you know, you mentioned that you're sort of like a breaking point for you when you realize that your your relationship with your partner at the time was coming to an end, and you know, you're that was gonna, you know, get in the way of your relationship with your kid, and you realized it was one or the other. It was either I I just go today or I turn my life around. Is that kind of around the time when you checked into rehabilitation?

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Yeah, I was really lucky. Uh in the UK, like you go to uh a center that prescribes you a kind of hold-in medication for your withdrawals called methadone. And um there was um a key worker there. Uh she'd been listening to my excuse my um my harshness, she'd been listening to my bullshit for a long time. Fiction fueled manipulation just to get what I needed, tell her what she wanted to hear, and bounce out the door again. At one point, um she turned around and says to me, like, you're gonna end up in prison for a long time or you're gonna end up dead. And that came roughly at the same time of that moment when I seen the train and I knew my mental health wasn't right, and I was ready to make a conscious decision not to be here anymore. There was like a coalescence there between them two moments. And when she said that, she was like, Look, I've got this um this programme, I think you'd be a great fit for it. After a couple of weeks of continuing to resist a little bit, I agreed to go to that, and yeah, it was it was 12 weeks. Uh yeah, some of the most difficult reflections, it was 12 weeks of mental pain, it was withdrawals were acute, there was no sleeping, but somewhere inside of me, and with that backing and that support from her, turned up every day, and I worked, I worked through grief modules, loss modules, I worked through kind of drama triangle uh modules, a cycle of change, all this kind of cognitive behavioral stuff was like blasted in my head. And then at the back end of that, there was like um there was Reiki, it was guided meditation, so they kind of blasted your head through that full of knowledge and theory to help you understand where you were, and at the back end of that, they would sort of caress you um via mindfulness techniques. There was 17 of us that started there, um, and yeah, by the end, I think there was a couple of us that made it through the um the very fiery wall um towards the end. But then I suppose the mental health battle started because okay, you've taken away the substances, but at the end of the day, I was homeless, didn't have a penny, and then the biggest one was I was kind of looking in the mirror, thinking, like, who who are you? Like, what is this that I see in front of me? What is this person that I see that inhabits this skin puppet? Jesus Christ, you've got some lines. Where did these come from? Because that 17 years ends up becoming like blur, it becomes like a whirlwind, right? And and that's where I suppose the second battle in terms of mental health started.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

I do want to go back a little bit though, just to talk about that rehabilitation that you were talking about, the 12-week program. This was not in patience, so you were going home and coming back every day.

SPEAKER_03 44:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

So that really requires a lot of a lot of willpower. You have to have you have to really be in a certain place. You you mentioned that you were in a holding, which was sort of like helping you to to deal with the withdrawals and stuff, but that holding was for how long was it?

SPEAKER_00 44:42

Um, yeah, I'd say about three weeks of consistent agony, non-sleep, or like an hour here or an hour there, and then the sort of emotional waves and tides and reconnection with your senses that comes with that. Yeah, that that first three weeks was a nightmare. And in the kind of rehabilitation groups, it was just about me churning out all that negative self-talk and things that uh were sort of delusions of grandeur, things that were fabrications that I've maybe made up to justify a really negative behavior or something that I'd done that I was really ashamed of. So yeah, that first three weeks of the rehab process was it was pretty grim, man. I was I was ruined, I was all over the place. And I can only laugh about it now because I'm thinking it through a dark humor filter, but yeah, yeah, I was I was ruined. I was at really at the at the bottom of the pile, sort of mentally, physically, and emotionally.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

When you when you kind of like look at it though, like in terms of the the grand scheme of things, it's like three weeks compared to 17 years. It almost sounds like heck, I could have done that, I could have done that on my own. But the the the amount of power that these drugs take over you that it becomes so hard to shake off that that even three weeks comes and goes so fast and so easily, but it can be so momentous, so life-changing in a sense, just as long as you're given the right kind of care and support that you need in that time.

SPEAKER_00 46:13

Yeah, and I I was so lucky that I was matched up with peer support worker. I'll give you one example. I had this kind of thing, this tick, if you will. So I got to the end of the three weeks and I was starting to sort of level out a little bit. But I had this thing that I'd be in the sort of therapy circle group first thing in the morning, and I couldn't sit with my back to the door. Like, literally couldn't do it. I'd sit with my back to the door, I'd get like frightful, fearful, and I'd have to like switch around my group. And this clinical psychologist was like, um, he must have seen this, and he took me aside after, and he's like, What do you think that is? And I was like, I literally don't want to have my back to the door. And he was like, Well, it's a threat response, and he gave me the you know, he gave me the particulars, the academics, yeah. And then it got to like, I think I was like maybe like halfway through, it's maybe week six, and he said to me, Liam, come with me. And so I was like, All right, you know, so he took me to the nearest uh tube station, and yeah, now I know more about it. What he was doing, it was exposure therapy. And so a tube station is really busy, right? It's just people, people, people. And this guy, like in the middle of the tube station, so you've got these commuters, you know, like briefcases and stuff just bumping past people, you know, old ladies being disregarded because you've got like a busy train. This guy just stood with his hands spread out, like in a messiac pose, and just started to do like heavy breathing. And I'm standing there thinking, mate, you're a NHS clinical psychologist, and you're standing here in the middle of a tube station just breathing. But what he was trying to show me is that you know, my identity and my value and my worth means that I can center myself regardless of what the situation is, and there'll be no judgment. People will just carry on with their business. There might be one who sticks her nose up or whatever, or you might get a remark, but he was showing me there that you know it is possible to center myself and ground myself regardless of what the situation is, and it showed me I was like, showed me real power with something so abstract, you know. And at first I was like, what the hell? But yeah, it's that kind of exposure therapy thing, you know. Like if you're if you're scared to fly in, for example, what you would do is you give somebody the stats beside flying, you maybe take them to the side of an airport to show planes landing, and eventually you build them up to like actually going on the plane. Yeah, he would show me how to, you know, integrate and not freak out when I was sat in a circle with my back to a door.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

That's really cool. I love that. And I love how earlier as well you talked about how on the one part of this 12-week program, they were teaching you about the terminologies that are necessary to know about CBT. Like just learn the academic side of it, and in the evenings they were teaching you mindful. It was kind of like this little combination of both, where you can take in the theories, if that's the way that you learn best or you absorb best, you can take in the mindfulness practices, the meditation, the Reiki. So, my question to you is what resonated with you best in that time?

SPEAKER_00 49:15

Yeah, that I think for me, well, I ended up sort of studying fast forward after rehab, and when I started to get myself back on my feet again, I started uh studying kind of Freudian psychodynamic counseling. And this points me back, sorry to shift left a little bit, but this points me back to that key worker who'd been listening to my BS for a long time, right? But she drew enough from the BS to think to herself, what type of rehabilitation does this guy need? So she knew that I was a creative because I probably told her about guitar and songwriting in London and playing gigs and playing, you know, in America and all that. She probably heard that from me at some point. She probably knew that I was quite fluid when it came to writing. She probably knew that I was quite quick when it came to learning and stuff. So even though there was never a reference to that, when it came to that window opportunity, she knew exactly what to throw at me in terms of academic smarts. And I think the I think for me as a creative as well, that that mindfulness piece, like I can go wrong with that. I can disappear completely. Especially within the context of kind of Reiki and yoga and stuff, which I still use and still keep me centered and moving forward in the right way, even like today, it's something that's kind of endured.

SPEAKER_02 50:33

That's amazing. That's so cool. I'm I'm also just beginning my sort of like mindfulness journey. So it's just really fascinating to sort of hear that like just just like you said, centering yourself. Like I've started to sort of really focus in and like listen to my breathing, even in the most crowded of spaces, and like really feel that kind of that breath that's coming in and feel it in my nostrils and feel it in my in my chest and my belly. And so all of those things are just so so important in that kind of process of like realizing and being one with yourself, because we often, especially in this kind of day and age, we we we lose that sense of like our heart is still beating, regardless of what's happening around us. Like these are innate responses or innate ways of being for survival that we don't even quite think about. And so, you know, having these kind of mindfulness practices, I can imagine just being so healing on its on its own. But yes, it doesn't come without the the kind of understanding of of grief and kind of connecting that with your own story or or like connecting these theories with your own story. And so, can you tell me a little bit about you know this phase two? You step out, and now it's time for you to do your own mental health healing where you have to really unravel your story.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

Yeah, what I first tried to do, so set the scene a little bit. I was living at in what you'd call a supported housing unit, or what others would call a hostel. So it was like loads of single men, ex-offenders in that environment in a really run-down part of London. So next door to me was an armed robber, and then downstairs was a sex offender, and then myself. So yeah, it was it was it was a stellar cast, let me say that. The first thing I had to figure out fundamentally was how to keep not them per se, but the world at bay and learn to sit by myself. That was number one. But again, I was fresh out of rehab, so I had a lot of coping mechanisms that were almost programmed into me that I followed ritually, super disciplined around that. At the time, I only had um£38 a week, so I literally had no money at all to do anything other than to eat pretty meagerly. So really it was um it was almost it was almost sacrificial, it was almost in in a certain sense like back to basics, back to nothing, and that understanding who I was and started to think, okay, what can I do to pass six hours? I'm just gonna write. I don't care where it takes me, I'm just gonna keep writing and writing and writing. I suppose nowadays you would call it journaling to a sense, so that was important to me. Then it was to reconnect with um music and my musical instrument as well, because I can disappear and I can waste a couple of hours for that. And then for me, it was like, okay, where do I channel all this energy? Because I had a load of energy that was obviously built up. So I was thinking about, you know, getting a concessionary pass for the gym, get myself moving, you know, actually look at all, I suppose, as many, as many practices that I could commit to that doesn't cost much money. And I was in that in that sort of hostel space for maybe about maybe about 12 weeks, and at the end of that 12 weeks, I managed to get myself a job. Um I started to work in secondary psychiatric care up in northwest London, and my first role was being like a night support worker. And I suppose that was the start of finding meaning again and a reason to get up in the morning. So there was finding creativity, there was the journaling bit and trying to sort of meld a story there. Um, and then it was to get out of the environment full of kind of expenders and get out of that environment, get a job, and yeah, continue that journey forward. And that's how it panned out.

SPEAKER_02 54:23

That's really like that. I just find that so like amazing. How sort of writing kind of was one of those things that came came quite natural, like you're finding your creativity in this kind of dark place that you were in, and that sort of being your your beam of light. And through all of this, how much of your past was being unraveled to you?

SPEAKER_00 54:42

It's really interesting. I think that the the the rehabilitation space, it gives you the platform to exercise demons and dig out skeletons in your cupboard and put them right in the middle of the floor, and amongst other people who are exercising their demons and putting their skeletons in the middle of the circle as well. So I'm not saying that I resolved everything during that period, but I suppose the big bits and what we talked about earlier, that acceptance. Okay, I accept what I've been through. You've got two choices now. You can go back to that way of life and the substance use, but you know how that's going to pan out because you've been there already, or you can walk through this other door and run towards the unknown. And I think how I tackle things now, if I just get nervous, I just run towards it. Just hopefully, what's the worst? What's the worst that could happen? And you know, there's there's never been kind of diminishing returns on that. It doesn't mean I get everything right all the time, but you know, I'll take the Pepsi challenge that I'll get six things out of ten right, and I'm quite happy with that sort of with with them odds.

SPEAKER_02 55:49

Would you say that sort of rehabilitation system that is there kind of in the UK is a successful, like effective one for most people? Can you speak?

SPEAKER_00 55:58

I don't know if you can speak on behalf of like most people, but the the thing is, is I think the rehabilitation space can be really effective for individuals. But what I see is the issue, and and this is the same with like the prison system as well. You can be in prison and you can get your stuff together, you can reconnect with your face, you can do work programs, you can get yourself qualified. But what happens when you come out of that structure? And in the UK, you see, especially in London, there's a lack of affordable housing, there's a lack of mental health provision. I don't think the rehabilitation space that um I was able to get into, I don't know if that's available to you know everybody who walks down the street. I think there's guardrails in place for that, and you've got to have done X and Y and Z before they're even applicable for that. And I was so lucky that this was an NHS provision, so I got that for free, right? Like I'm a big believer in kind of gratitude and the gratitude practice. Like, how lucky was I that me in the Western world I could really mess up and I can make some terrible choices and hurt people that I loved and stole from people that I loved and lied to people and you know done some excuse my French really shitty things, but still I had um a safety net where the NHS would gave me that space to rehabilitate myself. And then this might be unpopular opinion, but I'm gonna say it is that then it comes down to you as an individual, right? No matter what you've been through, at some point you've got to face yourself in the mirror and go, what do you want to do? Where do you want to go? And I was lucky that some of the steps that I made afterwards that were rooted in self-discipline and acceptance and being therapeutically informed and then studying all led itself to a point now where I'm not perfect by any strength, I'm not actualized through Abraham Maslow filter, but I'm definitely much better placed to make better decisions.

SPEAKER_02 57:58

I guess this kind of leads me to that sort of point, just to reiterate that question that I said earlier is is because you know, a lot of people that maybe inability to overcome huge addictions or huge traumas is due to like that lack of willpower, maybe because of that lack of education. And so why I wanted to reiterate that question is that you know you mentioned that this rehabilitation was was really heavy in that academic side of it and teaching you so that you can be aware, so you can be a bit more self-aware because self-awareness is linked to that sort of educating yourself, which is linked to that initial eventual healing. But I hear you also mentioned you said, you know, I'm I'm very lucky. I genuinely wonder, is it is it is there some innate genetic willpower, or is it really an environmental thing, like an education, for example?

SPEAKER_00 58:48

Yeah, I don't want to park the bust and be a sort of and sit on the fence around that, but it it's just really specific to the individual, what type of individual you are. For example, there was people in in the group that I was in rehabilitation with, I had some really smart people, I had like a detective in there, for example, you know, but that was one of the people that didn't make it on the other side, and you think, well, you know, somebody from the civil service who was super educated was in the upper echelons, but then again, you don't know what trauma they've been through. And like my point I made earlier as well, like how that trauma is manifested and how you've reacted to it, and how much is coloured in, and how much is you know, how much is fantasy, and it's just so, so it's so case by case would be the best way I could describe it. I do think I I go back to that person who I had support in me and who was listening to me for months and months, and I've said this on my podcast before, is that like she said to me the formula for trust is consistency plus time equals trust. I was like, you know what, you've you're you're not far off there because she was consistent enough to keep on turning up, even though I was just telling her what she wanted to hear. She put the time in, so she knew what buttons to press when it came to that window where it's like, you know, you're gonna end up in prison for a long time, you're gonna end up dead. And that's like a really specific skill set, and and somebody with experience in that field over, you know, numbers and numbers of years. She was able to pull it on me when the time is right.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:27

Love that. And one of the big things that I want to take away from this kind of what you said is as well is like going back to the consistency in that time is for you, it really required someone of a strong presence to have enough belief in you to give you that time and to give you that space and to be consistently there, to have you have your back and to be in your corner, to kind of make you stop and think for a second, you know, that also being your kids or being the people that you love and care. They gave you a little bit of that meaning and that little bit of purpose for you to kind of be like, okay, enough is enough. Like I've got to turn that around. And I think that's something that I kind of just really want to highlight here for anyone that you know is related to a mother of, a sister of, a friend of, a co-worker of someone who is, you know, really at their wits and their wits' end, or you know, is is a drug user from you know, years of trauma is Not to give up, because I think, you know, your impact and your your words to them can be so powerful and you just never know what you might say when that's gonna be the the words that is gonna turn it around for that person.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:33

Yeah, that's that's a that's a good summary point. And yeah, that formula is really important. That when she said that it sort of blew over my head a little bit, you know, like a large bow and 757 jumbo jet. But actually, upon reflection, I've kind of used that in a really unconscious way moving forward in relationships in my life, is that that then becomes a benchmark and a boundary for you to apply in terms of your own uh friendships and and relationships moving forward. So super valuable.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:05

Leon, final plugins. Tell us a little bit about the work that you're doing now on your podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:10

So yeah, um, our podcast, first of all, is too light, too dark. So it's got like a real kind of union influence, a lot of I suppose, influence in terms of shadow work. So the very things that that are the worst of the human trait, jealousy, rage, anger, frustration, resentment, you know, go through that litany um and negativity. Actually, they make us whole as human beings as well. And it's like a real mission at ours through the podcast to kind of integrate that and pull in some compelling discussions and conversations and guests, um, and understand what their trauma journey is or their healing journey is. Yeah, we're we're on Apple, um find us easily at Two Light Too Dark, from Spotify at Two Light Too Dark, and then we've got the handle across, you know, um X, what used to be known as Twitter, you know, Facebook, TikTok, all of that good stuff. So um, yeah, it's been really interesting. And why I've liked reaching out to yourself as well is that I'm not saying we're identical, but it looks like that our learner journeys are on similar trajectories, where I feel like that I want to bring smart people in the room and figure out a little bit about myself and figure out what their journey and how that applies to us, and kind of beam that across different areas and different sectors, and and hopefully educate and inspire. So, yeah, that's kind of the mission and what we're trying to do.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:34

Well, know that you have educated and inspired today.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:37

Yeah, thank you so much. And um, yeah, it's been a real pleasure to speak to you today. And yeah, I just hope that somebody, even one person, could reach out and understand that if a layman like me can do it, like you can definitely do it as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:55

If you enjoyed the episode and would like to help support the show, please follow and subscribe. You can rate and review your feedback on any of our platforms listed in the description. I'd like to recognize our guests who are vulnerable and open to share their life experiences with us. Thank you for showing us we're human. Also, a thank you to our team who worked so hard behind the scenes to make it happen.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:16

Stefan Menzel.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:17

Lucas Pierre. The show would be nothing without you. I'm Jenica, host and writer of the show, and you're listening to Multispective.