095 Narcissism, Boundaries, And Healing by expert Brianne

What if the romance that felt like destiny was actually data collection for control? We sit down with a counselor-in-training who specializes in narcissistic abuse to map the full arc—from the intoxicating highs of love bombing to the quiet, confusing grind of devaluation, gaslighting, and financial isolation. Together we unpack why narcissism is best understood as a spectrum of traits, how shame fuels rage and blame-shifting, and why change is rare without deep humility and accountability.

We dig into the types you’ll meet at home and work: the charismatic grandiose leader who dazzles in public, the brooding vulnerable type who lives in grievance, and the communal figure who performs virtue while exploiting in private. You’ll learn why boundaries often provoke more testing, how to gray rock without second-guessing yourself, and when “no contact” is safest. For those who can’t leave yet, we offer practical scripts and strategies to limit engagement, stop taking the bait, and protect your mental space.

If you grew up with an emotionally immature or narcissistic parent, this conversation speaks directly to the people-pleasing reflex that ties worth to productivity and usefulness. We guide you to shift from performance to self-worth: naming needs, building small boundary reps, and choosing safe people to celebrate your wins. You’ll hear how to grieve the fantasy of who someone should be and accept who they are, so you can stop relying on unsafe partners for joy, validation, or support.

Ready to reclaim your power and clarity? Press play, learn the signs, and take one concrete step toward healthier boundaries. If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs it, and leave a review to help others find these tools. Your story can start a chain reaction of healing.

Transcript

Opening Stories Of Narcissistic Parents

SPEAKER_01 0:04

I have a mom that wants everything to be about herself, who puts me in harm's way to protect herself. When I come to her with something, she's not happy for me, she criticizes me. If I tell her that she's hurt me, she's attacking me and making it feel like it's my fault. I have to earn my parents' approval. I have to earn some attention. If I make them happy and they do things right, they're not as angry and they are nicer to me. Narcissists want to see you get lit up. They want to see you flustered. They want to see that they've gotten under your skin. It actually gives them a weird, very weird, you know, sense of satisfaction. So don't give it to them. And with enough motivation and curiosity, you can really start to open the door and start to dream of like what do you want your life to look like? What do you want your relationships to feel like?

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Welcome to Multispective. I am so excited to have you on air with us today. Let's begin a little bit with uh can you just tell us a little bit about your your background and what it is that you do today?

SPEAKER_01 1:10

So I have a diploma in professional counseling and I'm completing my degree right now for psychology, going on to my master's so that I can become a registered clinical counselor and help people who are navigating narcissistically abusive relationships, whether they're in it or coming out of it or trying to unravel their childhood through it. So that's really the end goal. During that time right now, though, I use my platform at Diary of the People Pleaser underscore to really freely give all the knowledge that I have and just try to spread as much awareness as I can as possible. And I do one-on-one coaching as well. So I see clients one-on-one and help them navigate through the same things you would do in a counseling session, but just less formal.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

I love that you're really honing in on the topic of narcissism. Is that something that's kind of quite common right now? Like in the field of psychology, are you coming across a lot of cases that are erupting specifically in this topic?

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Yeah, I think that people are starting to feel a little more empowered to identify a narcissist in their life. So for so long, because narcissistic personality disorder was something that had to be diagnosed with a psychologist. And so, as people who know about narcissism know, narcissists are not lining up at the psychologist's door to try to get a diagnosis. They are not going to therapy at all. It's the people that they're in a relationship with that are going to therapy to get help for all the pain that the narcissist has caused. So people felt like they couldn't identify the narcissist because they weren't qualified to point out a disorder. And now we're starting to learn that it's actually more of a personality style and there's more general traits that go along with narcissism. And so I think people are really starting to open up their eyes and be like, wow, that sounds like my mom, my dad, my wife, my husband, whoever it is. And so it's becoming, I don't think it's something that's new, but I think people are just starting to see it more and be able to feel like they have a voice to actually say, that is the person that I have a relationship with.

How To Spot Narcissistic Traits

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Sometimes I wonder, like, we we sort of have a tendency to in the fields of psychology and science to put connections to find patterns in certain behavior in order to be able to understand why we are the way we are. Um, but we also recognize and understand that humans are complex in every case is so so unique to each other. So when someone does come to you and they they sort of explain to you the issues that they're struggling with, what are those things that you're looking out for that help you to say, oh, this looks like it is narcissism?

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it is the invalidation that people are feeling. They feel like they can't really go to their person for support. They can't really tell that person how they're feeling because that person's gonna get mad at them and rage at them and victimize themselves and turn it around. So there really isn't an open line of communication in that relationship. In fact, the person actually feels terrified to talk to that other person and tell them how they feel because of that wrath. There's just no accountability, there's no humility, there's no, you know, identifying, okay, I messed up in that situation, then the next time I'll try harder. It's just absolute blame shifting and turning it around on the other person and just really a sense of feeling lonely. So whether it's from your parent or from your partner, just being in a relationship where there's two people, but you feel very alone because everything is one-sided. The other person always takes, they always want, they have high expectations, but they never give anything back in return. Those are a lot of the main flags of what drive people in. And of course, there's just that understanding that a lot of people don't understand because nobody else sees it. A lot of times with narcissism, it is covert, and what that person is dealing with at home is not the image that other people see out in the world. And I think they're feeling really isolated and alone in their situation.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

And especially when it comes to the complication of like it being a family member, you know, you're raised to think that your parents uh or your family um are the closest thing to you. And that sort of, you know, it becomes a normal for you. So in a sense, it's hard to even see it yourself. And then on top of that, when they sort of go out into public, they're very different individuals, you know, they're bringing their best self forward, they're showing all the loving sides of themselves to the rest of the world. And so even speaking out to your friends or your loved ones about it, well, they're not gonna agree or they're not gonna see the sides that you speak of. So it can be a really isolating experience for the person who's going through it. Is it usually something that is targeted towards one person, or would you say like a person that's narcissist will be sort of that way within their whole entire family unit?

SPEAKER_01 6:03

I think that it is pretty well established in a lot of relationships, and that's why they sort of relationship hop. So, you know, they have their supply, they are getting all their needs met, and then once you're kind of on to them, or you're really not giving them that same, you know, praise and validation and all the things that they're hoping for, then they sort of shift over and find somebody new and try to win them over with their, you know, charisma and their confidence. So it's not that it's only directed at one person, it's just probably transferred to different people at different times.

Defining Narcissism As A Spectrum

SPEAKER_00 6:39

Right. That's interesting. So let's just delve a little bit more and we'll begin from the very beginning. So could you just define um narcissism or narcissistic personality disorder from a clinical and then a psychological perspective?

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Yeah, I mean, I think like we were talking about Dr. Ramani beforehand, and I think that she gave a really great analogy where she was saying narcissism would be like a soup. So if you just have a carrot, let's say carrot is arrogance, and you just have celery, which is maybe, you know, they are a little bit, you know, self-inflated and egotistical. When you have those ingredients on their own, that doesn't make a narcissist. You know, just because that person really loves to take selfies and they love looking at themselves, or because someone cheated, that doesn't make them a narcissist. But when you start to put all the ingredients together into the soup, that's when you have someone that might have some narcissistic personality traits. So there's a lot of grandiosity, there's a lot of ego, there's a lot of devaluing and using of other people to try to make themselves better. There's this really big inability to touch on shame. So if there's an uncomfortable emotion or you're getting too close to shame, they lash out. They become rageful, vindictive, they blame shift, they really make themselves the victim because they just don't want to have any sort of accountability. And they really do see themselves as superior. They think that they should have better treatment, they think that they deserve the best, even if they're not giving that to other people, they still feel like they deserve it. And so these are sort of all the ingredients that you have in the soup.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

That's really interesting. Can you tell me sort of like where does that develop in a person? Is it something that's like genetic, biologically, innately in a person, or is it like environments that kind of make them that way?

Can Narcissists Change

SPEAKER_01 9:10

I think no matter where you are in psychology and what kind of disorder you're talking about, or personality or you know, symptom, that's that really is the debate, right? It's the nature of verse nurture. And I don't think that it's ever really been established anywhere. I think that each person probably has a unique circumstance. And, you know, I think that some people um they grow up in an environment where there was a lot of praise. And, you know, sometimes when we think of narcissism, we think of trauma. We think that this person had a really difficult childhood. This is sort of their trauma response, this is how they've guarded themselves, and that's how they've adapted. And yes, that can be true, but a lot of times narcissism is actually developed by having a parent that's really overinflating their child. It's like, you're the most special, you're the best. You shouldn't have to do what they're doing because you're wonderful and special. And so it's the parent that's really actually feeding that sort of ego. And a lot of times that's how narcissism can be created. So I think that both. I think definitely it could be nurtured and it can be adapted depending on the circumstances. And then I do think that some people are more predisposed to it, just naturally. I think sometimes people are a little bit more sensitive, they're a little more empathetic, they're, you know, we all have things that are just naturally who we are. And so I do think that there's an aspect of narcissism that it's just kind of who that person is. And then their surroundings sort of either developed it or shifted it.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

If a narcissist was to one day wake up and maybe realize that they've really isolated themselves and they they don't have authentic friends, you know, they don't they can't sustain relationships, that they can sort of slowly develop that awareness of like something could be wrong here with me.

Support For Survivors Over Perpetrators

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Yeah, I think it depends on the person. So there is sort of a spectrum of narcissism. So you can have somebody who is, you know, a little bit more flexible and might have that awareness and at least be open to talking to somebody. And it usually is because of how they feel personally. You know, they are not going to therapy because they're like, my actions are affecting other people, and I want to change that about myself. They're like, I feel anxious, I feel depressed, I feel like my life is terrible. So a lot of what's driving them into therapy is their own needs, which is important. But um there's the whole other side of the spectrum where they would never set foot in a therapist's office. Um, and then everywhere in between, you know, sometimes people abuse the system as well. Sometimes they have to go because it can be court-ordered through some sort of divorce and mediation. Sometimes they really want to try to like win the therapist over in a relationship. So it's like, let's go to couples counseling, but I'm gonna try to get the therapist on my side, it becomes a good game of that cat and mouse. So everybody comes in with a different angle and a different need and a different intention. I would say that change is not impossible with a narcissist, but you're not gonna find it very often. And if you do, it's very long and slow and probably only reaches a certain point. Because to change, you have to be humble, you have to be having accountability, you have to be able to look at your own self. And people with narcissism just aren't able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

That like that is so dejecting in a sense. You mentioned that it's hard to change, and almost to a sense that they can even go to a therapist's office and try to manipulate the therapist out of it. I'm I'm curious if you've ever kind of come across any um actual narcissists yourself. And what are sort of the like typical treatments? What are the things you're looking out for? What are the things that they're typically saying to you that's Yeah.

Shame, Control, And The Dragon Analogy

SPEAKER_01 12:56

I haven't personally. I know other therapists who have worked with narcissism and they do actually sort of specialize in working with narcissists. Um, I tend to be more on the side of the survivor of narcissism. So whether it be the child or the per the partner in the relationship, um, just because they're the ones that need the support. They're the ones that need the healing, they're the ones that have had their life completely blown up and they are left so rattled and confused and shaken that they don't know what's right and wrong anymore. They've been through so much manipulation and gaslighting, they don't even know what's true and what's healthy. And that's where my heart is. That's who I want to help, that's who I want to give clarity to, in that we're not saying that narcissists are never gonna change, but let's assume they won't. And what can you do to support yourself? There's gonna be some acceptance, grieving, and there's a whole process that you have to go through once you've really identified that that person is probably not gonna change.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Just to delve a little bit more into sort of the mind of a narcissist, this is this is gonna be useful for anyone that uh maybe is not too aware of their own sort of experience that maybe they might be having a narcissist or a relationship with a narcissist in their own lives. What kind of is psych psychologically and emotionally happening sort of in the mind of a narcissist? And can you talk to me a little bit about you know the concept of like shame and insecurity or fear for a narcissist?

SPEAKER_01 14:30

Yeah, I mean, that is narcissism. It's shame, it's insecurity. And we all have that, but they are unwilling to look at that and they are unwilling to even accept that about themselves. They want to pretend that it doesn't exist and they want to be successful and win people over and be charismatic and you know, control the room, control the relationship, and do everything that they can so that that part of them doesn't exist. And it does lead to a lot of times addictions as well, because they just do not have the coping mechanisms to deal with the feelings that they're having. And so there's a lot of either like social media addiction, even and you know, alcohol and substances and even shopping and gambling, just something that is going to transfer all the feelings that they're having into something else. And so a lot of a narcissistic relationship is about control and dominance and just doing everything they can to avoid feeling the shame. And I just I love a good analogy, and I guess the way I look at it is like shame is the princess up in the tower, and out front is the dragon. So every time you're trying to get close to that part, get to that princess, the dragon comes out, and that's where they just shift the blame back, that's where they victimize themselves, they gaslight to make you feel like that's not really happening, you're crazy, they're manipulating. So all of those, you know, personality traits are the dragon that's protecting the princess in the tower, which is their shame and vulnerability.

Romantic Dynamics And Financial Abuse

SPEAKER_00 16:03

I I do understand it to an extent um to protect the individual, to kind of not allow yourself to be vulnerable and and make yourself prey to the other to another person. But I can imagine that sort of causing a person to implode because you know, even the closest to people that you're supposed to feel safe with, you don't feel safe. And so I imagine that concept of safety is totally warped in their in their heads as well.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Yeah, and they sort of um talk themselves into their own delusion that it's everybody else's fault all the time. So if they're not feeling safe or if they're not getting what they want from the relationship, it's that other person's fault. And I will go and find it somewhere else. So I don't even know necessarily a lot of the times if there's even that awareness because when you're constantly living in denial and blame, it's really hard to have a grasp of reality of what's really happening.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Can you talk to me about sort of like um can you talk to me about some like romantic relationship uh dynamics that you've kind of come across in the work um with your clients and how they've kind of been affected romantically?

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Yeah, I mean, the thing about narcissistic abuse is it really touches on a lot of different levels. So you have sort of your psychological abuse, there's mental abuse, a lot of times there's financial abuse too, where women find themselves, I want to say women more specifically, but this does happen to men, but they find themselves in a situation where the man has totally created isolation from the finances. So they make the money, they control the money, they threaten that if this person has done something wrong, that they're gonna take all that money away and make them suffer. And so there's a lot of financial abuse that happens as well, where really it comes down to that control and domination that I was talking about. They really like to try to make the other person feel small, to make them feel like they're always in debt, that they're a screw-up, that it's so lucky that the narcissist is even breathing the same air as them, and just really creating a lot of psychological confusion for that person, um, to make them believe that the abuse is their fault, and to also isolate them from friends and family and healthy relationships that were probably going to have awareness of this and talk them out of it. So there's a lot of isolation as well in these relationships.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

And part of that control, I guess, as well would be, you know, really slowly making them more and more sort of dependent on them as well, because the more dependent they are on their partners, the less independence they have and the less kind of voice that they're able to sort of be more open to sort of share about, right?

Love Bombing And Fast-Paced Romance

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Yeah, and to have the ability to be like, I don't think that this is right. I don't think you should be treating me this way. Um they kind of get them stuck in a dark room where it gets very confusing and disoriented, and that person starts to believe that it is their fault. They start to think that this is actually a normal relationship, and keeps them really trapped in the different cycles where you know it's not good. And then that person all of a sudden shines their light on for a little while and gives you a little glimmer of hope that changes around the quarter. Um narcissists are very good at you know putting out some breadcrumbs and putting out some false promises, and like I'll go to therapy and we'll do this and we'll do that, and things will get better, and then never actually following through on it, and then that same cycle repeats itself.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Right. So is is love bombing a very common concept in these kinds of relationships as well?

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Yeah, so love bombing is sort of how you get yourself caught in these narcissistic relationships. So that person in the beginning is very loving, they're very doting, they're very romantic, they're thinking of you, they're sending you little, you know, quotes or things that make you feel good, you know, they're always prioritizing you. And really in the beginning of a relationship, the narcissist is studying you. So they want to know who you are, what your weaknesses are, what your vulnerabilities are. They sort of pretend to be into the same things as you and create these false connections where they don't exist, where it's like, oh, I love doing that too, or I felt that way too, and really giving you this sense of you know that you found someone who gets you and this is your soulmate. And they really paint a very beautiful picture of the life that you can have together, and you kind of get caught in this like romance and fairy tale. Um, and they move very quickly, and that's something that I like to share, especially with younger generations coming up. It's just like listen, if you've had two dates and that person is already talking about moving in and getting married, and they're getting a tattoo of your name on you, or Whatever, that's a red flag. That is not a healthy pace for the beginning of a relationship. So that is definitely something to watch for.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

That like goes back to what you said earlier as well. It's like they really hone in on an individual that they sort of in a way want to target and and they give you everything that you need to kind of lure you in. It sounds a little bit like almost like a cult.

Workplace And Types Of Narcissists

SPEAKER_01 21:07

It's very cat and mouse, right? It's very like the cat is watching and it's setting up and it's like ready to pray. And the thing that I I like to clarify for people because I've had some people ask, like, well, love bombing, you know, because they're doing all these nice things, does that mean that every time somebody's being nice to me and showing me, you know, love and generosity that I should be skeptical? And it's like, no. But the difference between love bombing and just having a healthy relationship is that it ends. So the love bombing is a very strong, it's a lot all in the beginning, and then it slowly starts to unravel. There starts to be, you know, that person is now demeaning you, they're degrading you, they're devaluing you, they're not excited for you when something good happens to you. Like all these things start to unravel. And a healthy relationship that would continue on. You would both just lovingly respect each other, care for each other, give each other things, think of each other, you know. So it's not that the love itself is a problem. It's that the intensity is strong and then it disappears. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Now, can you tell me about like narcissists in the workplace? Would you say that their personality traits uh would generally make them really more successful in the workplace, sort of like leaders, but not really liked leaders?

SPEAKER_01 22:24

We all probably have had some experience with some sort of corporate narcissist. And you know, there's different types of narcissism as well. So that grandiose narcissist is probably somebody that you're gonna see more in these environments where they they really are actually very charismatic, they're very confident, they're successful, you know, they walk into the room and they do kind of have like this bright light that people are attracted to. Um so that would be more of the grandiose style where it's a lot of like dominance and success and um really having a great image. And they're the people that, you know, sometimes you get to the top because you do have to step on other people. And so I would say that probably obviously not in every situation, because there are some people that have great integrity and they're hardworking and they they do things the right way. But I would say a lot of people that are quote unquote successful in certain environments probably have some narcissistic.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

You mentioned that that that's one type of narcissism. What what are some of the other ones that are known?

Family Systems And People Pleasing

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Yeah, so like a vulnerable narcissist is I call it sort of like the brooding stepsister to the grandiose because the grandiose is very, you know, like I said, you they they just they they're light shines. You know, you you walk into the room and they're just attractive and they're charismatic and they're confident, and they're the ones that people are like, I never would have thought that that person's a narcissist because they're so nice and they're so funny and they do this and that. And it's like, yep, that's that's what it looks like. Um, the vulnerable narcissist is more broody, they're more anxious, they're more socially awkward, they're very victimizing. Um, you know, a grandiose narcissist would be like, I want this and I deserve it, and I'm gonna take it. And the vulnerable narcissist is more like, I want this, and it's not happening for me, and you know, it's everybody else's fault that this isn't working out, and just sort of that style of self-talk. Um, and there's communal narcissists, so sometimes you see that person, you know, you mentioned cult, and sometimes people don't even recognize the difference. But there could be like a religious leader, there could be somebody that's really involved in the community, politicians, you know, people that are out there and they act like they're this really great person that's giving back and doing all these good things, but inside and in the family home, that is not the person that the world is seeing. So those are just a couple. Um, like I said, narcissism sort of goes on a spectrum all the way up to pretty much nearest psychopath. So there's the malignant narcissist as well who's almost touching that psychopathic, you know, border, and they're very just vindictive, abusive, they're very dominating, they're not afraid to hurt other people, to get what they want, they're aggressive, more physical abusers. So there's a there's a spectrum.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

I didn't even know that there were like so many different types of narcissists. Now, walk me through a little bit about the family dynamics and parents. Can you just talk to me a little bit about like how it can develop and impact a child's development as well in their self-esteem?

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Absolutely. I would say that a lot of people who struggle with codependency and people pleasing and just really lacking that ability to use their voice or set boundaries grew up in homes that may have had an emotionally mature or narcissistic parent. So it was very dominating, it was very controlling, it was very parent-centered, so it's like it doesn't matter how you feel, mommy needs to be the one that's taken care of right now, or daddy or whoever it was. The narcissistic parent really teaches the child that the parents matter more, their feelings matter more, their safety matters more, their comfort matters more, and that the child is almost there just to give that to them. It's they're there to change their style, their personality, what they're doing to make the parent comfortable. And a lot of times they're they turn into earners. Like I have to earn my parents' approval. I have to earn some attention. If I make them happy and they do things right, they're not as angry and they're nicer to me. So maybe if I go through my life always trying to make everybody else happy and being easygoing for everybody else, they'll love me. So it really does create sort of that fawning trauma response.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

You lose yourself in that process of trying to just be the perfect person for everyone. And so kind of having to split yourself up in all of these kind of different ways to be there for everyone else, and you're working on an empty cup. You've got nothing left to give. You're a gaping whole of an individual.

Reclaiming Self And Setting Boundaries

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Yeah. Well, I think because that's the important part that you didn't say in there was what about that person? You know, they're so worried about their partner or their coworker or everything else happening in the world. But there's never been an examination of what do I need right now, and what is my limitation and what's my capacity, and what am I getting back from these relationships or situations as well? Are they filling my cup as much as I'm filling theirs? So there really isn't that reflection. And I think that there's fear around that reflection because from a young age, they were conditioned to believe that I am only lovable and worthy and valuable if like people need me or if they're happy with me. You know, that environment of walking on eggshells all the time. You grow up to think if I can just make myself small enough, be nice enough, be good enough, you know, cater to other people enough, I'll feel safe.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

This is such an important part of that journey of an individual. And for anyone that's listening to this as well, who are finding themselves more comfortable, more safe being really small, you know, making themselves as invisible as possible, burrowing their own feelings and their own thoughts. At some point, I'd imagine that you lose touch so much with your own emotions and with your own feelings, your own physical sensations when you have certain emotions, that once you develop that awareness of like I've lost myself in all of these relationships, it starts unraveling this whole what do I do now? How do I find myself in this journey that you know I've so far away lost? Can you tell me about how is it that you work and help people find themselves again in this process?

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Yeah. I think you just nailed it right there. There has to be that want and desire. So people usually come to me when they're just like, I can't do this anymore. Like I cannot give. I'm resentful, I'm burnt out, I don't feel like I have great relationships in my life, like I feel like I'm always giving to everybody else, and nobody's giving back to me, and they're really coming from a place of just emptiness, and they are just sick and tired of it. They are like, I don't want to do this anymore. And so there has to be that motivation there to actually start to make the changes. And there has to be the curiosity that who am I if I'm not doing all these things to other people? And what will my relationships look like if I do start to put boundaries or prioritize myself? And with enough motivation and curiosity, you can really start to open the door and start to dream of like what do you want your life to look like? What do you want your relationships to feel like? What do you want your work-life balance to be like? What boundary do you want to have in your life that you don't have? You know, think about your life if you don't put that boundary in. And then think about your life if you do put that boundary in and it goes amazing. What is that gonna feel like to you? And when you start to really open up these emotions to people, they're like, Yes, I want that.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

Would you say that it's pretty quite instant, quite quick for an individual to sort of know what it is that they want and the boundaries that they want to set and the place that they want to be at work? I'd imagine so many people have curated their lives in a sense, you know, maybe gone down a career path that they'd never really wanted for themselves, but you know, that they had been kind of pressured into that, and they've spent now the last 10 or 15 years of their lives doing that to kind of set that boundary and say, enough is enough. I don't want to do this anymore.

Healing With Or Without Support

SPEAKER_01 30:23

I want to Yeah yeah. Sometimes people don't know what they want, they just know that they don't want to feel the way that they're feeling anymore. And then some people come in with a very clear goal of like, this is not working for me in this area, and I don't want to feel like this anymore. So everybody comes in in a different place. But I would say that no matter who you are, um, it's a journey to get to the place that you want. Because in front of that place that you want to be is years and years and years of conditioning and beliefs that you have to work through and change because you didn't just become a people pleaser because you wanted to, because it felt good. It was a conditioning and there's a lot of fear behind it. Like if I do this and if I change this about myself, what if these people don't want to be my friend anymore? What if, you know, this person gets mad at me? What if they feel like now I'm a burden and they don't want to deal with me? You know, there's a lot of fears behind it. So it takes time and a journey to actually build up the courage to start making these steps.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

What what are those boundaries that you found that a lot of people have kind of come to you and said, like, I need to draw a boundary here? And how have you kind of coached them through that?

SPEAKER_01 31:33

Yeah. I mean, I think that a lot of what I see is um people tying their worth to their productivity. So they want to be, you know, for their boss, they want to be accessible, they don't want to say no, they want to take on a lot, you know, they never they never want to upset the work environment because when the boss feels good about them and when their work is going well, they feel like they're successful and they're safe. Um, or it happens in relationships and friendships a lot. Like if I'm not needed, I won't be wanted. That's a huge fear for people. So they just constantly give and sacrifice and show up and overextend themselves because they're so afraid that if they don't do those things, that people aren't gonna want them anymore. They're not gonna want to be their friend anymore. And now they've tied their identity to their productivity. And so really starting to work on that. Like, who are you if you're not doing all these things for everybody else? And who are you if everything else got taken away? Like if you were only just left with yourself, what are those qualities about yourself that you bring to the table? Not the fact that you brought your friend a coffee just just to be nice, not because you took on that extra project, not because you have a really nice house and drive a nice car, not because you have this perfect body. Like if you took all that away and you were only left with your own self, who is that person? And how do we start to develop those self-worth skills? Because when you have self-worth, then you have the confidence to actually set a boundary and believe that you're deserving of having people respect it.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Yeah. Love that. Do you believe and do you feel that this kind of healing journey, this kind of healing process, is only possible for a person to sort of do that on their own with themselves, spending that time with themselves for it? Or do you think it's possible to heal with other people?

When You Can’t Go No Contact

SPEAKER_01 33:27

I think that you can do both. I think that the other people in your life don't determine your healing. You know, like you can't say, oh, if my partner's really supportive of me, or if they're helping me, then I'll be able to heal successfully. Um, you know, you could be in the middle of a storm and bunker down in a shelter and still continue to heal. So it's not really the relationships or the circumstances. It is a choice. I would say that obviously it's probably easier to heal if you have a better support system and you know, have a partner or family member that's really supportive of you and encouraging and allows you to have that time and space. Um, but I think that you can heal in in any environment. And in fact, going back to narcissism, like you can't change the narcissist and you can't change the environment sometimes. Sometimes people aren't able to lead their circumstances for lots of different reasons. But you can still work on yourself. You can still start to understand who that person is, what their limitations are, what of yours is not going to be respected, you know, how to engage or not engage, how much information to give. Like you can really start to learn what you need to sort of survive your circumstances and still still grow and still learn and still find strength and still build yourself into someone that eventually may be able to have a different circumstance.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

It's interesting what you said earlier. Probably one of the most recommended things that, you know, one would say to a person who's uh in close proximity with a narcissist would be draw a boundary there, you know, move far away from that, get away from that situation because this is it's not going to be helpful. But in a situation where a person cannot, you know, remove themselves from that relationship, how do you guide them on communicating with a narcissist and making sure that they look out for themselves while upkeeping or maintaining that relationship?

Gray Rock And Managing Expectations

SPEAKER_01 36:05

Yeah, I would say definitely like no contact is the best case scenario in those relationships or situations. But like you said, that's not always the case. That's not always a reality, whether it's for financial reasons or children or just emotionally or mentally where somebody is, they're not able to. So the thing about a boundary is that a narcissist is not going to respect it. So to think to yourself, if I set these boundaries, that you know, the narcissist will respect these boundaries and we can coexist is not going to happen. In fact, if you set a boundary and a narcissist knows that, they're probably going to push it even more. Or, you know, they take the thing that you're vulnerable about or the thing that you want or the thing that you've confided in them, and they will actually weaponize it against you. So if you set a boundary, I can guarantee you that they will go out of their way to jump over it. It's a great so it's not really anything you can do to try to control the situation or the other person. You have to just work on your own self and what you can do, which is limit interaction. You know, you've probably heard gray rocking, so just be boring AF. Just like cool, yeah, like very minimal engaged engagements, you know, when they're trying to bait you and pull you into an argument, just feel like, yeah, I just don't want to argue right now and walk away, you know, like because when people are in the cycle with narcissists, there's so much um thrown at you that you feel so defensive all the time, and you're always trying to stand up for yourself and defend yourself and be like, I didn't mean it like that, I didn't say it like that. And every time you're coming back with something, that is giving them another opportunity to just drag you further in. So you have to stop engaging. Have to stop. Right. They're going to they want to see you get lit up, they want to see you flustered, they want to see that they've gotten under your skin. It actually gives them a weird, very weird, you know, sense of satisfaction. So don't give it to them. So be boring, be distant, don't tell them things that you're excited about. Don't, you know, you have to change your expectation of what you want from that person. You have to look at them as like they're not my person. I thought that was my soulmate. I thought that this was my best friend, I thought that this was gonna be the person that when something good happened, I came home and they were so happy for me, and they had some champagne or they celebrated me. You have to let go of that dream because that is not a narcissist, and you have to start to accept that this person's not going to be happy for me because that threatens them. So I'm not going to tell them about this great thing that's happening in my life. I'll call my best friend, or I'll tell my coworker, I'll call my parent. But you have to stop relying on them to give you that romantic life that you were fed. Yeah, that makes sense.

Accepting The Parent You Have

SPEAKER_00 39:04

So, what you're really saying is that there is kind of no way to really have a healthy relationship with a narcissist.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

No. You can have a somewhat cordial relationship where you can coexist to some degree without explosive fights. Um, I would say even then there's like a lot of baiting and there's a lot of unhealthy behavior that's thrown at you and attempt to suck you back in. So I would never call any sort of relationship or situation with a narcissist healthy. I would just say that the more you engage and the more you feed into it, the worse it's gonna be. So if you do have to coexist with someone, try to just be as distant and boring and unresponsive as possible.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah.

Social Media’s Role And Pitfalls

SPEAKER_01 39:54

Just accepting that that person's not going to change and then changing yourself and how you now see that person. Maybe it's like if it's a narcissistic mother, like of course, you're wanting a maternal figure that has unconditional love and would always do anything for their child and is happy for them and supportive. And then having that acceptance that that's not who I have. I have a mom that wants everything to be about herself, who, you know, puts me in harm's way to protect herself. When I come to her with something, she's not happy for me, she criticizes me. If I tell her that she's hurt me, she's attacking me and making it feel like it's my fault. So once you accept that that's who that person is, you can change your expectations of the relationship. You can say, like, okay, I can still see my mom at Christmas, I can coexist in a world where we have to, you know, have these engagements or where she's still involved in my life. But I've now changed the expectation of what I expect from her.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Would you say that social media has played a big role in the formation or the understanding of a narcissist and and sort of even the individual that's sort of, I guess, victim to it?

SPEAKER_01 41:01

Yeah, I would say that it's been a blessing for a lot of people. And I found that through my page, even just the amount of people that reach out to me and just are so grateful to have come across this information, to be learning more, to people that are like, I I didn't know I was in this kind of relationship, and then I was like, you know, with all the things. That you're sharing, I was I realized that's who my partner is, or people that really feel stuck in it or who are climbing out of the depths of it, and they just know that they're not alone. It's like this is not just you and that person, this is lots of people and lots of narcissists. You're not alone in your circumstances.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

It allows us to sort of be in our own quiet space and still learn so much about you know certain traits of narcissists as opposed to before, where we were really required to open up that line of conversation. Now we're so inundated with it. We don't even have that choice of being exposed to that information. It just it shows up on our newsfeed.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

I would say I mean it's a double-edged sword, right? Because I feel like sometimes with social media, when things become trending or knowledgeable, it gets overused sometimes, right? So now it's like everybody thinks everybody's a narcissist, which isn't the case. But I do have to say that even with therapists, there are a lot of therapists who don't actually know that much about narcissism. And so I love now that there are people that are specializing in these topics so that when somebody's coming, they're able to actually help them. Because I've I've known people that have gone to see a therapist and they're talking about a narcissist. And because that therapist doesn't really have that knowledge and understanding, they're almost playing into that gaslighting of like, well, maybe if you maybe you didn't say it clearly, or maybe, and then like that victim is feeling like, oh, maybe I have the problem, maybe I did do something wrong. So to have people specializing in it, I think is very, very helpful for the individuals who are navigating through it.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

Yeah, because it is a really, really sensitive topic at the end of the day. And like again, like we mentioned, you know, a person that is naturally a people pleaser is already by default wanting to make sure that they're pleasing the other person, even if that is going to be the therapist. And so if the therapist is in a way not understanding or knowing or able to sort of, you know, put a name to what's actually happening and then help them accordingly. That for that individual, they can very easily sh sort of shut that down uh and trying to keep the peace or trying to, you know, be in agreement with their therapist as well. Brian, final thoughts, final message that you can give away to our listeners today that are listening to this episode.

Final Encouragement And Outro

SPEAKER_01 43:41

Yeah, I mean, I guess I just hope that everybody's learned at least one new thing from this episode. Um if at the very least you just know that you're not alone. I think that that goes so far in the healing and recovery of any form of abuse. Um and I would just say to people that if you're in these circumstances, don't allow yourself to be isolated. Stay in connection. Keep your friends, keep your family, keep people in your life that even if you don't feel safe or ready to share exactly what you're experiencing right now, because there is a lot of fear about opening up and saying what you're going through, because people can be judgmental or you don't know how they're gonna react, or they could tell you to leave, but maybe you're not ready to leave. So sometimes there is a fear around opening up. But have those people ready so that if you're in a circumstance or if you finally are ready to get out, um, that they're there for you and that they're also there to keep your mind healthy and well on what is reality. So, like I was saying, in a narcissistic, it's so easy to get so manipulated and bamboozled that you don't know what's even right and wrong anymore. Keep your people so that they can tell you like this is not okay behavior, this is not right. Um so I just want to say, like, don't isolate yourself and don't lose your strength. Like stay strong, keep fighting, and eventually you will get out.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

I love that, Brian. Thank you so much for for being on the podcast and sharing and being so insightful. Like, I I feel like I've learned a lot as well over here, so thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

Awesome. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

If you enjoyed the episode and would like to help support the show, please follow and subscribe. You can rate and review your feedback on any of our platforms listed in the description. I'd like to recognize our guests who are vulnerable and open to share their life experiences with us. Thank you for showing us we're human. Also, a thank you to our team who worked so hard behind the scenes to make it happen.

SPEAKER_02 45:46

Stefan Menzel. Lucas Theory.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

The show would be nothing without you. I'm Jenica, host and writer of the show, and you're listening to Multispective.