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Arizona Civics Podcast
Welcome to the Arizona Civics Podcast. This podcast aims to share our journey of sustaining Arizona’s interests in reforms to civic education by working with civic educators in our state. This work is being done by the Center for American Civics at Arizona State University. I am your host, Liz Evans, Civic Education and Outreach Program Director at ASU, and I will interview Arizona teachers, content experts, and leaders in civic education. We hope you enjoy our journey to make Arizona a national civics model!
Arizona Civics Podcast
Strategies for Building Civil Discussion Skills: Conversations with Justin Glodowski
What does it truly look like to empower students as citizens? Justin Glodowski, a 14-year veteran teacher from Wisconsin, reveals practical strategies that transform students from passive learners into active civic participants.
Justin's approach begins with a foundational belief: if we want students to become engaged citizens, we must first teach them how to discuss difficult topics productively. Drawing from his experience teaching AP Government to freshmen, he shares how establishing clear discussion norms creates a classroom environment where students can tackle controversial issues more effectively than many adults on social media.
The magic happens when students take ownership of their learning. Through congressional simulations where students draft legislation on issues from corn mazes to taxation reform, they experience the complexity of governance firsthand. Justin's Socratic seminars—complete with peer evaluation scorecards—develop crucial skills for democratic participation while making abstract concepts tangible.
Perhaps most valuable is Justin's framework for discussing controversial topics through the lens of constitutionality rather than personal opinion. By encouraging students to think like constitutional scholars rather than simply sharing feelings, he elevates classroom discourse and builds critical thinking skills essential for citizenship.
Beyond specific activities, Justin emphasizes the importance of teacher collaboration and professional development. His podcast "Engage" exemplifies his commitment to sharing resources that make civics education interactive and meaningful. When asked what gives him hope, his answer is simple yet profound: students genuinely want to understand their world, and when given the opportunity, they demonstrate remarkable capacity for thoughtful civic dialogue.
Ready to transform your approach to civics education? Listen now to discover specific strategies you can implement immediately to create your own laboratory for democracy.
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um, I we have not done a one-on-one podcast yet with one of our teachers, so I am very excited today to have my friend justin. We've actually known each other, for we were trying to figure out how many years but, like justin said, years prior, or to covid, just everything is weird now. Um, we went to the national constitution center Summer Institute together and I mean there's lots of favorite memories from Philly, but we were talking about, you know that you're a history teacher or a teacher of the constitution. When you're going out to dinner in Philadelphia, you're hanging out at a restaurant, everybody else is watching sports and the people that you're with are watching political debates.
Speaker 1:it it was fun, like that whole thing was fun. So, justin, I'm going to let you introduce yourself for our viewers before we get started today talking about empowering students.
Speaker 2:Sure, and I'm Justin Glodowski. I'm from Marshfield, wisconsin, so kind of central northern Wisconsin. I've been teaching for approximately 14 years and I teach AP US Gov, I teach AP comparative government, I teach a class on genocide and human rights and I teach some psychology classes as well Kind of a variety of different classes. I do host my own social you know social studies podcast called Engage, where I kind of talk about social studies engagement opportunities and you know I love getting a chance to share you know different strategies and talk about civics. I've worked with ASU and you know the state of Wisconsin to work on different civics programs and I'm excited to share whatever I can share with you guys.
Speaker 1:I am just excited to have you on. I think one of my favorite things about this cohort is there are people from different states who teach different things, and the magic that came together in this cohort was just, I mean, putting those lessons up, and I will, for our listeners in our show notes, put a couple of my favorite ones from Justin, because I taught APGov too. So it was always really fun for me to look at some of the APGov ones, because I'm like, oh man, I want to go back in the classroom and I want to do that. But today we're talking about empowering students. We're really trying to explore how educators can inspire and equip students to become active, informed participants in our democracy, and really we're going to share some practical strategies, roll out examples.
Speaker 1:I mean, justin is a practicing teacher, he is in the classroom, and this is to me very important and I've said it before. I taught for 17 years. It was wonderful, but I did not teach in the middle of the pandemic and I have not taught after, and so it is a very, very different world. We always want to make sure we have experts on. So I guess my first question for you, justin, is what does empowering students in civics mean to you.
Speaker 2:I mean, when I think about civics in general, I think about it as how can I help my students to have kind of the skills and the knowledge that they can go off and become just like citizens of the United States or citizens of the world?
Speaker 2:I almost think of each of my classes like a stepping stone. If they're taking USGov, they're learning about like how can I be a citizen of the United States? If they're moving on to AP, comparative or the Human Rights class, we're talking about like big global issues and how things are connected. How can I, you know, pass on my students to the outside world and know that they have the skills to participate Not saying that they're going to or that there's any guarantee there, but just making sure they kind of know how to be involved and have the knowledge and the skills to be active participants if they want to. And I certainly want to show them that there is potential to make an impact If there's some, if there's a concern, anytime in their life. They know that there's a way to to make a difference if they want to, to be engaged if they want to.
Speaker 1:And I love that you talk about kind of that stepping stones right, because we don't want to automatically assume that students know how to be citizens. Right, you know we start them in assume that students know how to be citizens right, you know we start them in kindergarten and talk about citizens of, like our classroom and these little things, and then it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and, like you said, by the time they're kind of coming through high school, it's citizens of the United States and of the world. How do you help students connect civic learning to real life issues that they care about? Because one of the things I notice is, if students don't think it's relevant to them, they don't tend to care, which is fair. So how do you help them connect?
Speaker 2:that and that can be one of the more challenging things for me. I do teach AP Gov to freshmen, so I'm seeing them right at the beginning of their high school time, their high school experience. They're not like right before voting, they're not right before, you know, exiting high school. It's from the start, which in some ways is kind of nice. There's not that pressure of like you got to prepare them to like vote this year or become engaged because they're on their way out. It's a chance to kind of engage them in stuff with maybe a little less pressure. It's a chance to kind of engage them in stuff with maybe a little less pressure and I like to just make the class, as you know, connected to them as possible and really as freshmen they kind of feel like they've never had a chance to like give their own thoughts. Lot of education where people have shared all these different concepts and these different things. They've learned about these different historical events and political events, but they never had a chance to just like interact with others and discuss things. And I think that's like one of the skills I really harp on a lot early on in the year is how can I give my students more opportunities to discuss major, real political topics. So making sure that I have, you know, real political topics that they're interested in engaging about. And we go through all sorts of like good discussion norms and what a discussion looks like and what a bad discussion looks like. And we talk about how, like social media, you can often see like people are behind a screen. They maybe aren't using the best you know discussion techniques or might not be using the techniques they would use if they were having an in-person discussion. So we definitely talk about like what would be good discussion habits and discussion you know values to have. And then I just like to make sure that I give them some opportunities to share thoughts on different stuff without pressure and give them a chance to interact with their peers around a lot of different topics. So I do a lot of things with, like Socratic seminars and different discussions. We have some discussions where students kind of go back and forth across the room and debate some of the bigger political topics of the day and I kind of adjust those political topics based on what's going on in the world, give them a chance to interact on those things.
Speaker 2:So, if we go further back, students once discussed DACA and Dreamers and stuff like that, because it was something really it was something talked about at the time it was.
Speaker 2:It was it was fresh in the news where today, if I was starting that topic right at the beginning of the year right now, we'd be talking about, like, tariffs and their impact, impact and part of that is just like listening to them. Like they have, they have questions, they come to school wondering how things are working and, um, what this does, and they pay attention to the news in their you know, their own atmosphere. There's there's a ton of news on social media. They just you got to be open to listening to what stuff they want to talk about and want to debate about um in different ways. So I like to give them a want to talk about and want to debate about in different ways. So I like to give them a chance to have some voice and I definitely like to listen to them as much as possible as far as what stuff they want to be able to discuss with each other.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that. You understand that. You know they're coming in and they maybe don't know how to have a discussion, because that is a skill, and I love listening to when different states do AP Gov, because when I did it was seniors, right, so it was like we're at the end, we're voting. You know we're really trying to get them, but I love that you have freshmen because they're coming in and you're right, they probably haven't had exposure to people listening to them and giving them a voice and I do think that for this generation, social media is where they get their news because they're not sitting and watching. You know the 530 news. No-transcript.
Speaker 2:And I think when we're talking like projects or activities, like it's once again about putting things more into their control whenever you can, I like to do a lot of simulations in my classroom and a lot of activities that put things into their own hands in a chance to discuss things and debate things, those Socratic seminars they're putting the discussion into their own hands. I'm hands off. They're discussing it with themselves. If they have questions, they certainly can ask me. I do an extensive Congress simulation which puts a lot on their shoulders. It's mid-year and they get a chance to write their own bill about anything and it has to be like a real bill about something really in politics. So they got to think about what they're concerned about, which it helps the beginning of the year. I talk about ideology, so they get a chance to like, think about different things People might have different perspectives on uh, and then later on they can maybe reflect back to that stuff. Um, and you'll have anything from. I remember a student that was mandating that every city had to have a corn maze, which didn't make any sense and it didn't pass. There were a lot of concerns by some of the classmates in the Congress simulation, but you could also get students proposing things like high-speed rails or changes to taxation. High-speed rails or changes to taxation you'd be amazed at how many things students can think up as, like I would change this in our federal or state government. And then it brings up great discussions of, like, okay, is this actually something Congress would do or is it something a state would do? And I like to do simulations like that. That here's.
Speaker 2:Students are proposing their own bills. They're trying to go through the whole congressional simulation process. They form their own committees, they choose their own leaders in their own imaginary political parties. They can all see each other's bills and then they can, like, discuss them in committee. They can discuss the benefits, the drawbacks of different changes, the benefits, the drawbacks of different changes.
Speaker 2:Oftentimes they'll like, nitpick it and the bill will die, which is I know it's going to happen. I know most of the bills are going to die. I know it's going to be tough to get through that class and another class because I have them split between a House and a Senate amongst my different classes. Basically, I'm just giving students a chance to not only learn about, like, how congress uh tries to get a bill into a law, uh, but it gives them a chance to add in their voice uh, kind of taking on that that citizen hat of like. Here's something I care about. Here's a concern I have, here's how I would try to address it and then potentially seeing other people's perspectives about like. Okay, there's a few drawbacks with putting a corn maze in every single city. A few.
Speaker 1:I love that because I'm sure too, like if they looked at some congressional bills they'd be like what? Like there are things that happen that corn ways in every. That is funny to me being somebody who is from iowa, because I'm like I can already see all the issues, all the issues with it.
Speaker 1:Um no problems, though I don't see anything Perfect good Socratic seminars, because I think there are a lot of teachers out there who want to try a Socratic seminar but they're nervous and they hear you know people like you who are like Socratic seminars. I mean, I loved Socratic seminars as a teacher and I will say the first couple of times I did them they were not perfect and for me it was a learning experience and I eventually got there. But do you have any tips for teachers? Because I can, I can almost hear them in my head like well, what if they don't talk, or what if they get off topic, or what if somebody says something offensive? What kind of tips would you have for those teachers?
Speaker 2:I mean first of all like I know it's a big jump to just jump into Socratic seminars or I call them scored discussions, because I'm not going to get into too much logistics, but I would certainly start with start with a good resource. Give them something to to read or multiple things to read, like I do an electoral college discussion and I give them way more resources on the electoral college than I think they would consume. But you could start simple. If you're brand new to doing a discussion like that, I would go and find something that's already created. There's some great stuff, for example, on like street law. Street law has some great discussion starting readings where students could read different perspectives on like photo ID laws or on whether or not assault weapons should be banned or on whether or not hate speech should be restricted. Give them something that they can read, a few pages of different sides. I would definitely recommend requiring them to put down some notes. I tell my students put down notes. I don't care how much it is. You're showing that you did some research, you came with some evidence. And then I give them like a scorecard of things that are good discussion things and bad discussion things. Like there's a scorecard and it says monopolizing that's bad. And then I explain what monopolizing is. There's one on there that's personal attack. And I'm like what's a personal attack? And then we discuss, like okay, that person's insulting someone else's opinion, that's not okay. And we look at all the good things on that scorecard and half the class discusses first, and the outside of the class they have that scorecard in front of them. So the pressure's on to like you want to meet that scorecard. You have someone that's on the outside, kind of watching you and monitoring you and kind of keeping track of, like, good discussion habits. So not only is the discusser thinking about like okay, I want to make sure I add some good points here, I want to share some stuff from my notes, but the person on the outside is thinking about what makes a good discussion, because they're watching someone, they're seeing whether or not they do that.
Speaker 2:And I'm not going to harp on the fact that there are some kids that don't discuss. Like there's some kids that are going to be so nervous in the moment and they're not going to share, and there's gonna be kids that just don't like to share or don't want to share or maybe they're afraid their views are going to be criticized for whatever reason, and that's going to happen. I, I didn't like discussing and I tell them that too, like I was in your shoes. I don't like discussing, I didn't like presenting, um, I mean, be honest about that, and I always give them, if they didn't discuss, and I give them that chance to discuss. I didn't just let them sit out. They had a chance to be in there, they had a chance to chime in and then afterwards they get a chance to kind of write up their opinions on the discussion. Those kids prepared probably a ton because they were nervous and they were afraid they wouldn't have something to say. So they probably had a lot of good notes they could use to to write something up.
Speaker 2:So I think the key is, like have a good resource, keep it simple. If you are just getting started, kind of show them the guidelines of what's a good discussion, having that visual in front of them of like here's good discussion habits, here's bad discussion habits, here's bad discussion habits, and then just being you know, being understanding. Some kids are struggle, some kids struggle with sharing out loud. So just be understanding about that and come up with an alternative that works, even if it's like a kid having to make like a video recording, sharing their thoughts out loud with a video screen, and works. Even if it's like a kid having to make like a video recording, sharing their thoughts out loud with a video screen, and just be like it's not going to be in front of everyone, it gives them a chance to say something out loud, which might be a good idea too.
Speaker 1:I think, too, that even if kids don't talk, they're still learning right, they're still learning from their peers. There's, I think, one of the my favorite Socratic seminars I ever did was with my eighth graders. We did the letter from Birmingham jail and it I mean it took place over a couple of days because it's long, and what I noticed was the second day more kids were in it and were talking because they had learned from people and I used that product seminar. I did not score it, but I told them.
Speaker 1:The purpose of this is for all of us to dig in and learn from each other what this document says, and I think that that is a good place to start too, because kids are worried about grades, like how am I going to be graded? Did I do okay? And it's like, yes, there is a score, but the big thing is here is we want you to have these discussions, we want this to become kind of how you are in life, right, when you're watching the news or you see something and you're wanting to have a dialogue with somebody that maybe you disagree with, that you understand just basic communication skills, because oftentimes the stuff they're seeing on social media is not good, not good discussion at all.
Speaker 2:Um and I would say, like my, my freshman can handle whatever topic it is. I feel like they, they can handle it if you, if you give them information to understand it, they'd be willing to discuss something just because it gives them that chance to interact with each other and they tend to handle it. I always tell them they handle it pretty well compared to adults, compared to adults that they see in social media. They tend to be able to handle difficult discussions. They've they've debated the death penalty in my classroom. They've they've debated universal healthcare, they've debated minimum wage every topic they've kind of brought up and we're able to handle it in a very mature way from my, from my perspective, and I mean just making sure that you're there and you're kind of, you know enforcing that role of if a student does kind of get out of hand or insult someone's comments or something like that, you know addressing that quickly. So everyone feels you know comfortable to share their thoughts. That's that's important too.
Speaker 1:Yes, and primary sources. I think is is the best place always to start and our civic literacy curriculum has tons of primary sources. It has tons of discussion questions. So even if you're like I on those kind of higher stakes topics because we're talking about constitutionality, we're talking about like laws that have been passed before, and it gives them you know, maybe they don't have an opinion on it yet, but it definitely helps them kind of focus their discussion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and speaking of like constitutionality, I think one of the more interesting discussions is when you see a student having to argue about, okay, okay, they may not like something, but they're talking about whether or not it's constitutional.
Speaker 2:So when they're discussing like hate speech or something like that, they may not like that, this is happening. It may be uncomfortable statements, but they're discussing well, but the constitution says this and the constitution says that, and you can get into some law a lot of greats realizations too when you look at like modern court cases. If you pull up a modern court case, um, once again from street law, they have some great resources on on some modern court cases. You can have the students discussing and arguing something, but not necessarily from the perspective of like this is wrong or right, which they may want to jump to, but focusing in on well, is this constitutional, how does this fit with the Fourth Amendment, for example? And that gets them to discuss something in a different way, which is important too, because a lot of our stuff isn't necessarily always up to is this right or wrong? It might be like is this, is this legal? Does this violate, you know, separation of powers or rule of law or an amendment. You know where does. Where do we draw the line?
Speaker 1:I think that's key because if we're just talking about constitutionality, you know we're being lawyers, we're looking at the line. I think that's key because if we're just talking about constitutionality, you know we're being lawyers, we're looking at the law. It really does take a lot Like we're not here to say right or wrong, and I like that because I think that it empowers students to really dig into that legality, dig into the constitution and have kind of higher level discussions because we're not attacking each other as people. We are saying, well, this is not constitutional, this is or my interpretation is this so it can be bigger and it can be again where there are high stakes discussions. But because we're not sharing our opinions and things like that, they tend to go better. So for teachers what support do you think that teachers need to confidently teach civics today?
Speaker 2:I mean certainly from like, from the civics community. There's a lot of resources out there. Certainly, time to find those resources and guidance to find those resources. There's a lot of stuff out there and I know we've mentioned street law a ton of times but there's other civics partners that have just so much stuff that you could potentially use. So the time to find good resources and to then put those into activities and present things in an engaging way is certainly really important and, for that matter, I'm always a strong supporter that, like professional development opportunities, whether it be attending social studies conferences or attending very specific strategy conferences, like going to some edu protocols thing or going to something from you know another organization that's talking about strategies those are all really useful.
Speaker 2:Finding ways to learn from each other, which is something I think that teachers, we can feel like we're all stuck in our classroom and feel like we got to plan for the next day and we don't have time, but any way we can find time to interact with each other and share things.
Speaker 2:I think is essential and that's why I love having podcasts like this and podcasts like my own, to be able to share with others where we may not be able to, you know, see each other face to face, but we can still share some resources to make the profession better. So I think time and like accessibility things are certainly real important. Certainly it's important to have, you know, trust from like administrators to take on some really difficult topics Like I'm talking about. Well, I'm not even talking about it. My students are talking about some really difficult topics in class and having an administrator that's you know if he hears any concerns about, oh, they're discussing such and such political topic in class to come to me and kind of hear about, like, what was going on, what kind of discussion were the students having Because students do discuss any number of different things in my classroom, but oftentimes it's it's them discussing it I'll give them some information and they can kind of make their own viewpoints from there. So having that trust and support is certainly really important too.
Speaker 1:I don't remember which Supreme Court justice said it I want to say Breyer, but I'm probably wrong that classrooms are laboratories for democracy, right? So we want students we don't want to stifle students if they're not being disrespectful and they have questions and they want to know things. We want them in our classrooms to be places where they can try out ideas and have these conversations. And you're right, administrative support is huge. I am the biggest proponent in professional development. I mean, that's how you and I met. I feel like every time I go to something, it just makes my world a little bigger. And you know, especially when I was in the classroom, I had people to reach out to that from different states. You know, because we went to something together. And you know, especially when we went to National Constitution Center, it was fun to like in our group, be like, oh my gosh. You know this just happened. We need to teach this. And you have teachers who are in the same boat.
Speaker 1:I genuinely and I think I've said this on every podcast, almost I genuinely think that civics and social studies teachers are some of the best sharers and the best people to collaborate with, because everyone I have met if I'm like I need a lesson on this. I hear like take this, take this, take this. You know, whether it's on Facebook or Twitter or whatever social media you use, there's so many people out there that want to help you. So if you're a brand new teacher, or even if you're in a mid-career teacher or a veteran teacher and you're just feeling burnt out and alone, there are so many amazing social studies and civics teachers who are out there who want to help you and who have podcasts, like Justin, and I will absolutely be sharing this in the show notes on all of our socials so that you have somebody to listen to, because sometimes it's as simple as driving in your car and you just want to listen to a quick podcast on something, or you have a prep hour.
Speaker 2:And I would say, like here I am, like 14 years into my profession. I never feel like I'm done learning. I want to improve. Every single year I teach this class, I'm trying out new activities. Sometimes they're a flop. That's perfectly fine. It's part of trying to find a different way to engage my students in learning and engage them in an interactive way. That's different. I mean and engage them in an interactive way. That's different. I mean kids are changing and that means like teaching needs to always be something that improves too. I always went into this profession wanting kids to be like lifelong learners, but really it's a profession where teachers get to model that and keep growing and changing and becoming better. I never want to be that teacher. That's kind of doing the same stuff every year. I want to learn more from others and beg, borrow and steal all those great things and then put that into my classroom. If there's a reason why I like to share these things, it's because I've learned a lot too. I don't want to hoard it all to myself.
Speaker 1:I want everyone else to use some of these great strategies out there among young people because, especially because you work with them every day, and I mean your kids are 14, 15. Is that the freshman? I feel like I should know this because I'm going to have a freshman next year. But what you know when you're working with students, what kind of gives you hope?
Speaker 2:I mean, probably what gives me hope is something that I've mentioned earlier. Like kids come into class already wanting to discuss certain things. They already want to bring up things. Kids former students come back as juniors or seniors and like did you hear about this? Is this something that can be done? Is this what's really happening? Like they're asking questions. Kids want to understand the world, and that gives me hope that they want to be engaged and involved.
Speaker 2:Beyond this, Plus, if freshmen, can you know, discuss some really hard topics and learn to discuss things in a productive way, that gives hope that, like you know, future generations will be able to discuss things outside of the classroom in more productive ways. I think the more we focus on, you know, building good discussion tactics allowing for students to be able to have their voice heard and not feel like it's stifled immediately by, like the adult in the room, the more we do that, the more students are gonna feel comfortable being a part of that civic world that we want them to be a part of if they want to. So I hope they do, and the way I hear questions back and kids coming back and wanting to be in more of these classes, that gives me hope.
Speaker 1:I do have one more question for you. Can you tell us a little bit about your podcast and the things that you talk about? So if there is a teacher listening to this, that's like I kind of want to check it out.
Speaker 2:I wonder what it's about and we just share different strategies and tips for making your classroom more engaging when teaching social studies in general. I've done a whole series of podcast episodes about teaching different parts of civics education, so like how to address political parties when you're talking about political parties in class and how to discuss that in like an engaging way. Or, for example, I shared in a podcast episode about how I teach interest groups. I want my students to have a variety of different interest groups in their brain. They've never heard about interest groups and they've maybe seen one AARP commercial on TikTok somewhere, but I want them to have a variety for examples. So we have them research their own individual interest group and then they do a speed dating activity where they're sharing with another student one-on-one for a few minutes and then they rotate and meet another student and interact with them.
Speaker 2:Information and hearing different information. It's really themed around the idea of this. Oh, it's speed dating. Mr Gliowski has the fireplace on the TV screen and he's playing jazz music in the background. For some reason it has that. You know it's engaging them that they're weirded out by the classroom experience, but they're also getting a chance to go one-on-one discussing a topic with somebody else hearing about a different interest group. So the podcast shares a lot of strategies and different ways to engage your students in review, civics education, human rights and genocide education. We're all about sharing as much as we can.
Speaker 1:And I actually met Alicia through professional professional development too. I feel like I, the state of wisconsin um has my heart, because there are a lot of incredible. We have two wisconsin teachers in our cohort, but I feel like every time I go to a pd um, I meet these amazing teachers from the midwest. I love speed dating because it's like when you walk into a classroom when they're doing speed dating, it's so animated and it's loud and you can just feel the learning and you're right, kids, it's something different for them and they get more exposure and it's just fun. Like that is a day where it's fun. I'm going to find that podcast and put it in the show notes because I think that people should listen to that. Is there anything we did not get to that you want to make sure? There's so much good in this podcast? I can't wait to share it with our listeners. But is there anything else you want to make sure that you say for the good of civics?
Speaker 2:I guess all I would say is like like, civics education doesn't have to be just like learning governmental structures and stuff like that. Civics education is just about. Well in Wisconsin there are many people that say civics education is social studies education. It's kind of involved with everything. If you're having a history class and you're talking about a big historical concept, you can have that discussion of like how do we approach things like this in the public world? How were they approaching things back then? How could things be approached differently? If you're talking about any number of different subjects in the social studies, they tie in with civics all over the place. Whenever you're talking about being able to make an argument and support things, whenever you're talking about you know, interactions of our world, a lot of that is civics. So making sure that you're you know creating an engaging classroom that's certainly key and making sure that you know civics is kind of intertwined with a bunch of stuff mind with a bunch of stuff.
Speaker 1:You are a rock star. The state of Wisconsin is so lucky to have you. Asu was so lucky to have you as one of our cohort members. Thank you so much. There's so many gems in this and I just really appreciate the opportunity to work with you again, to hang out with you again. So thank you, I really appreciate it.
