Dr. Jim discussed the importance of building equity for Black women in leadership and welcomed a panel of guests to the show. T
The three panelists discussed the role of leadership in advancing black women into leadership roles in sales.
Sertrice Grice has a background in industrial organizational psychology, and is passionate about allyship and inclusive behaviors. She and her business partner recently wrote a book called Inclusalytics and are also creating a training course on allyship .
Dr. Jim asked Grice why it's important to have a data-driven approach to DEI. Grice explained that collecting data and hearing the employee voice is critical in order to drive DEI strategy, before beginning behavior change interventions.
She also emphasized the importance of not just collecting data but also being transparent about it and taking action based on it. This is necessary to avoid the performative space and ensure that employees actually see changes being made.
Wesleyne shared that many leaders have a similarity bias and don't look outside the box, industry, or what they know to find people with innate sales skills. Whitney Goins noted that leaders need to create an inclusive and diverse work environment and empower black women to take on leadership roles.
She suggested that leaders should also provide mentorship, resources, and support to help black women in the sales field. They concluded that leaders should prioritize creating a culture of inclusion and opportunity for black women in sales if they want to create meaningful change in the industry.
Whitnie Goins is a Global DEI Manager for a real estate investment trust company. She has had success in sales and marketing in multiple organizations, but she has always gone beyond the scope of her role to amplify the voices of historically marginalized groups.
When she was working in marketing innovation, she noticed an opportunity to educate their commercial organization on how to approach communications during times of communal trauma and horror. This started her transition into DEI, and she loves her work. Her role involves going into offices and organizations to discuss what can be done better to make people feel like they belong and are treated equitably.
Conversation on Leadership and Sales
Advancing Black Women into Leadership in Sales
Benefits of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Initiatives in the Workplace
The Lack of Representation of Black Women in Leadership Positions
The Challenges of Advancing Black Women into Leadership
Exploring Strategies for Elevating Women and Black Women in Leadership
"Exploring Data to Improve Representation of Underrepresented Groups in the Workplace"
Diversity and Inclusion in the Workplace
Empathy Training and Allyship
"Advancing Black Women in Leadership: Key Action Items for Organizations"
Black Women Leaders in the Workforce: Data and Actions to Drive Change
Music Credit: Maarten Schellekens - Riviera
[00:00:00] Dr. Jim: Welcome I am your friendly neighborhood talent strategy nerd, Dr. Jim. The topic for today is, building equity for black women in leadership.
[00:00:10] Dr. Jim: And the purpose of our show is to help talent strategy leaders and talent leaders do more with less by leveraging community intelligence. And that's what we're gonna do today, addressing the topic of building leadership bench strength, and also building equity for Black women in leadership.
[00:00:26] Dr. Jim: So joining us today is a fantastic panel of featured guests who are gonna share their insights. And before diving into the conversation, I want to get the audience to get to know the the panelists a little bit better. So first up, I want to welcome Sertrice Grice to the to the show.
[00:00:43] Dr. Jim: Tell everybody a little bit about yourself and the work that you're doing.
[00:00:46] Sertrice Grice: Thanks for having me, Jim. Excited to be here. And also thank you for bringing me together with some other amazing Black women. Always great to, grow the network. So excited to learn more about them as well.
[00:00:56] Sertrice Grice: Cause I haven't met Wesley and Whitney before. So anyways, back to [00:01:00] me though. My background is in industrial organizational psychology, which is the science of human behavior in the workplace. And I am co-owner and chief consulting officer of Mattingly Solutions. We are a woman owned diversity, equity and inclusion consulting firm, and we focus on taking a data-driven approach to d e I data-driven, yet also human-centric.
[00:01:22] Sertrice Grice: So when collecting our data, it's about making sure we're hearing the employee voice. And using that data to then drive your d e i strategy and doing all of that work before starting with your behavior change interventions, which is where everybody likes to start, slap it up in unconscious bias training and saying, we did d e i.
[00:01:40] Sertrice Grice: So that's our whole passion is slowing people down, collecting data, making a plan, and then acting, and then collecting more data to figure out your impact. In addition to Cooning my business with my business partner, Victoria Mattingly, we also co-wrote a book that came out in March of last year called Inclusalytics , how Diversity, equity and Inclusion Leaders [00:02:00] use Data to drive their Work.
[00:02:01] Sertrice Grice: And super exciting. Yesterday we actually recorded the audiobook version of that and hope to release that sometime in March at our one year anniversary. So that's fun. And one last thing about us or about me is that I'm also really passionate about. Allyship and inclusive behaviors.
[00:02:16] Sertrice Grice: That's why. Fun fact, I do not wear makeup, but if you can't tell, I have someone on today. We were just reshooting some of our videos for our training course on Ally up call, or sorry, on allyship called Ally Up that is available on Udemy. So yeah, little bit about me, my passions and some projects that have
[00:02:32] Sertrice Grice: going on.
[00:02:32] Dr. Jim: Awesome
[00:02:33] Dr. Jim: stuff. Tric and fun fact. I don't wear makeup either and maybe I need to start. So there's that. But there is one thing that I want to dig in a little bit further on. You put this emphasis on data. Why is it important that we have a data-driven approach to D E I B in general? How does that play into the work that you do? And why do we start there versus, some other place?
[00:02:55] Sertrice Grice: Yeah, starting with data is really critical because it helps you know where to [00:03:00] focus and when to pivot. Sometimes we get caught up in what the fads are, what other organizations are doing, and we just put that out there and think it's gonna solve our issues without figuring out what our issues are.
[00:03:11] Sertrice Grice: And as I said, we focus on the employee voice because that data matters even more. Instead of assuming what your employees need, just ask them, right? . But then you have to actually follow through. That's the big piece is not just collecting the data, but being transparent about your data and what you're doing as a result of the data you collected.
[00:03:30] Sertrice Grice: Because that is another difficult thing that happens in organizations is when they say, oh yeah, we have all of this data, but then your employees aren't seeing action. And so that's when we get into the performative space, which I'm sure we'll get into a little bit more.
[00:03:42] Dr. Jim: Absolutely appreciate you sharing that. And I'm going to be super looking forward to your insights. Next up, I want to introduce Wesleyne Greer to the show. Welcome to the show. Nice to see you again.
[00:03:52] Wesleyne: Thanks so much for having me. I'm mixed. Excited to be here. So again, my name is Wesley and usually I'm on here [00:04:00] talking with Dr. Jim Bantering about sales and leadership. But today I will be talking about a topic very near and dear to my heart. So I am a recovering chemist and I moved into sales and then sales leadership.
[00:04:13] Wesleyne: And I tell people when I got into sales leadership, I finally figured out what I wanted to be when I grew up because it was everything that I loved. It was just all of the things. And through my journey being a chemist, going into sales, moving into leadership, Many of the times I was the only, I was the only woman of color.
[00:04:31] Wesleyne: I was the only woman. And so all of those things that I learned through my sales career and leadership career, what I've done is at my company Transform Sales. We have a leadership centric approach to sales, training, consulting, and developing. We believe that if leadership is not invested and evolve, then nothing is gonna work.
[00:04:50] Wesleyne: So we develop strong leaders in order to develop strong teams. And Dr. Jim very affectionately calls me the Beyonce of sales, which I love it. And so I receive it all the [00:05:00]
[00:05:00] Wesleyne: way. .
[00:05:00] Dr. Jim: Yeah. Don't forget the hashtag on that. That's what the kids are doing these days. So Wesleyne I appreciate you hanging out with us again.
[00:05:06] Dr. Jim: I want to follow up on a leadership component that you just mentioned. You focus on making sales leaders more effective. I'd be curious to get your impression and your thoughts. When it comes to this particular topic. What is the role that leadership should be taking in advancing black women into leadership?
[00:05:26] Wesleyne: So the first thing is they all have to realize that there is a problem in the world of sales with hiring black women at all, right? And so when we look at who we're hiring at an entry level, many times leaders, they have, that similarity bias they have that, oh, okay, this person's never done that.
[00:05:45] Wesleyne: I actually am working with a lady right now, and I am so very proud of her. She's hiring somebody who's seven months pregnant and she was like, she's the perfect person for the position. But a lot of time in sales because of the travel, the long hours, all of those things. Women aren't hired and then women of color [00:06:00] aren't hired.
[00:06:00] Wesleyne: Because a lot of times we don't know about these opportunities. We don't know how sales can actually change your life. And so when we don't hire women in sales, then we don't really have women to promote, to retain, to mentor, to really help them move up that ladder. And so that's really why there are so few women and so few women of color in leadership because the leaders are not really looking outside the box, outside the industry, outside of what they know to find people that have innate sales skills and don't just have a bunch of industry experience.
[00:06:33] Dr. Jim: I appreciate you sharing that. Last but certainly not least I wanna welcome our third featured panelist to the discussion. Whitney Goines, welcome to the
[00:06:41] Dr. Jim: show.
[00:06:41] Whitnie Goins: Thank you so much, Dr. Jim and
[00:06:43] Whitnie Goins: hello ladies. Very excited to get to know you too. So yes, my name is Whitney Goins.
[00:06:48] Whitnie Goins: I am a global d e I B manager. I work for a real estate investment trust company. But throughout my career so much of Wesley, I of bounced around. So I've had success in both sales and marketing across [00:07:00] multiple organizations. But at each of these companies found myself really going beyond the scope of my role in my efforts to amplify the voices of historically marginalized groups.
[00:07:07] Whitnie Goins: So a few years ago while I was working in marketing innovation, I noticed an opportunity to educate our commercial organization which included, marketing, communication, sales on how to approach different communications deal with times of communal trauma and horror, which is what we were dealing with around, 2020.
[00:07:23] Whitnie Goins: So based on what we were seeing essentially. Took the leap of, independently working with different firms to educate our commercial organization. And then that led to a few, stretch assignments. And I eventually, I was tapped to join our organization's inaugural d e i team.
[00:07:37] Whitnie Goins: So yeah, that kind of start sparked my transition into diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I love my work. It's definitely hard work. So it's lovely to go into an office and into their different organizations and be able to discuss, what we can do better in order to make people feel like they belong and are treated equitably.
[00:07:54] Dr. Jim: I love what you said right there about it's heart work and also [00:08:00] that it's, I it's important to, feel like you're going into an office where everybody else is interested in advancing or improving , I improving the trajectory of these issues. , I'd like your input on how you've been able to impact that across your various various roles.
[00:08:16] Whitnie Goins: Yeah, and I think, granted, it, it may vary for different individuals. And it's so funny after when I was leaving my previous organization and, , it was my decision and really just based on my desire to relocate.
[00:08:27] Whitnie Goins: And I had formed such a great relationship with my manager to the point where I even told him, I was like, man I really hope I don't like my next manager as much as you because I find myself working twice as hard just because, I, just adored him as a manager. And studies have also shown that when people feel like they belong and people feel like they're treated equitably, they're actually going to put in the work, they're going to do more and they're going to be more productive.
[00:08:51] Whitnie Goins: So when we think about what it takes and. What really what it takes to get more of a sense of belonging for people coming from historically [00:09:00] marginalized groups or just underrepresented groups in corporate America, or these different spaces. It really goes down to, everyone benefits when people feel like they are treated treated well.
[00:09:09] Whitnie Goins: I feel like individually that may vary as far as what people may need in order to fill that, but the studies and the data does not lie when it comes to productivity.
[00:09:18] Dr. Jim: I appreciate that perspective and you hit on something that's really interesting to me and it was the phrase what pe what each individual needs.
[00:09:26] Dr. Jim: And it's a great table setter for the rest of this conversation. And I wanna frame it this way. So I, obviously everybody that's interacted with me at some level knows that I like talking to all sorts of people about all sorts of different things. And when we when we're looking at.
[00:09:40] Dr. Jim: Issues of diversity, affirmative action, D E I B and whatnot. I'll often ask people that I'm engaged in conversation with who does this most often benefit? Who do these initiatives of most often benefit? And I'm surprised at some of the answers that I get because almost automatically it points to these are just [00:10:00] quota requirements, check the box requirements that impact a very small segment of the overall population.
[00:10:06] Dr. Jim: And more often than not, a lot of people will, without really thinking much about it, say largely benefits the African American community and. Being in the space. I know that's not true. When you look at the largest beneficiaries of affirmative action and D E I B initiatives it's largely been white women who have benefited that it benefited the most from these initiatives.
[00:10:26] Dr. Jim: And I don't say that from a place of animosity or everything, it's just what the data shows. And the reason why I call that out is that there's another interesting component of the dynamic that we're looking at. Wesley, you mentioned that hey, it's important to have representation. And I think each of you will be saying elements of representation so that people can move their careers and progress their careers.
[00:10:47] Dr. Jim: But when you look at the Fortune 500, it's the Fortune 500 recently set a record for having the most women CEOs in their history. And that number was at 43. And when you look at [00:11:00] how many Black women were occupying the C-suite, there were three. . And for me that was, those are two really interesting data points where when you look at it from the context of global populations, there's only 43 women that are qual qualified to lead these multinational organizations.
[00:11:22] Dr. Jim: And there's only three in a, in the entire world who are African American or Black women who are leading organizations. That's a problem. And when I have that conversation with folks, they don't seem to really connect why that's a problem. So one of the, one of the things that I'd be curious to get your input on is why are people either unaware or unconcerned.
[00:11:48] Dr. Jim: how those numbers shake out.
[00:11:49] Whitnie Goins: Yeah, and it's, I think what's even more shocking about that point when we look at black women considering studies have come out that have shown black women are among the most educated [00:12:00] group in the United States, right? So it's like, how are we not qualified? But I will say from my years of working in diversity, equity, and inclusion, , A lot of times it's approached as like the zero sum game, right?
[00:12:13] Whitnie Goins: Where if I'm winning or if one group is the focal point for at one point, then another group is not being considered right? So I think a lot of times we, when we think about why perhaps black women or this data point isn't as alarming for other people I think there's been a lot of, what about me ism right?
[00:12:33] Whitnie Goins: Over the last over the last few years. So it, it is that's a tough one, Dr. Jim. I'm trying to, I'm going back and forth about why more people aren't concerned. But at the end of the day, we also have to make sure that, black women aren't getting burnt out from fighting for themselves too, because we do need allyship in that in that journey, in that fight and bringing awareness to what's actually happening.
[00:12:55] Whitnie Goins: Yeah, I'm ki I'm going back and forth about, why, because I feel like that's systemic, right? It's been happening for [00:13:00] so many years. I've never actually sat back and asked the question, man, why does no one why does no one care fighting for us? Or why does no one care?
[00:13:06] Whitnie Goins: It's it's just how it's been, right? I'm interested to hear what the other ladies have to say on that one.
[00:13:10] Dr. Jim: Yeah. Some of these things
[00:13:11] Dr. Jim: are unanswerable. So I it's it's rhetorical i in, in a large sense. But I think your position, Whitney, is echoed by a lot of people.
[00:13:18] Dr. Jim: I, I think the same thing, even though I'm not directly impacted by your circumstances. , it's still an important question to ask.
[00:13:24] Sertrice Grice: I was just like eager to jump in. Cause my immediate thought, just based on my experience and what I've seen in this space, this from the overrepresented groups, their feelings are, it's not my problem, right?
[00:13:36] Sertrice Grice: And not, and they don't even mean that necessarily in a bad way. Like they're not coming out here to be, hateful and say that's not my problem. It's more of more often than not just aloof that's not me, right? That's black women. I'm not a black woman, so I'm not paying attention to that.
[00:13:52] Sertrice Grice: And I do say a lot of times when you br start to bring it to their attention, all of a sudden there's, oh, okay. I didn't [00:14:00] realize, until you told me there were only three. Now I am curious, like, how does that happen? , is it aqua? And then they think is it, there's a cognitive dissonance, right?
[00:14:07] Sertrice Grice: Because they're like all of these people are qualified. That's how they would get into that CEO role. So does it mean that these Black women just aren't that doesn't feel right. I know intelligent Black women but everything's equal, and so once they do have to sit down and start thinking about it, and there's that issue of it doesn't make sense, right?
[00:14:24] Sertrice Grice: Something's wrong here. They don't know how to fix it. And to your point, Whitney, of this zero, this fear of this zero sum, if I was, if I were to stop and focus on this and try and make opportunities for Black women, that means now I'm giving up my access to power and resources. So now I can't move forward.
[00:14:41] Sertrice Grice: Is that something that I really want to sit with and think about and resolve? Or do I want to continue to just, move on and pretend that everything's fine and we're all equal and everyone has fair chances and no one's being like experiencing these inequities? All of this to say I think that not my problem comes to the, a heart [00:15:00] of why people are both unaware and unconcerned.
[00:15:02] Dr. Jim: , I like the not my problem. Perspective that you brought forward. Sertrice I want to latch onto that and bring it to Wesleyne and tie it together with another thing that I've heard just in this opening part. And it's this whole idea of qualifications.
[00:15:16] Dr. Jim: Like when I hear qualifications, it bothers me because it immediately makes me think that this is something that people can hide behind. . So when you pair the not my problem and the qualifications component of how some of these things are evaluated, for. It looks like cover. I don't know how that's tied into your experience, Wesleyne being in the sales function, but I'd like you to share a little bit about your perspective on why this problem exists, ?
[00:15:41] Wesleyne: So I always look at things from a leadership lens, and so many times what I think about when we have less representation in senior leadership, I think about, okay, so who do we have in senior leadership? So we have 43 I think you said 43 women in total [00:16:00] out of 500. , right? But we only have three that are Black women.
[00:16:04] Wesleyne: So when we think about the 43 women, how did they get to where they are today? They had mentors, they had allies, they had people who helped bring them along, who helped teach them what to say, how to do, how to promote themselves internally, how to, really have that committee, that board of directors, the people in the room when they weren't there.
[00:16:23] Wesleyne: And so what happens so often, Black women don't know how to. . Nobody teaches us how to promote ourselves. They say, put your head down, go work. Go get all these degrees, go get more certifications. Go do this, go do that. Volunteer on this committee. Nope. Do this more, do that more. And we get burned out.
[00:16:39] Wesleyne: . And we're like, when is this gonna end? I am so tired of doing all of these things and I'm still not getting promoted and nobody's taking us aside and saying, yes, I know you're doing these things, but you're not self-promoting. You're not going and talking to the board of directors. You're not offering to present in front of a group.
[00:16:55] Wesleyne: Like those things are not something that we are taught to [00:17:00] do. And since we don't know how to do it, we burn out and then we leave the company. And then what happens when you leave the company? You make a lateral move and you keep making these lateral moves and to move up the ladder, you never have that opportunity because you keep that cycle of burnout.
[00:17:14] Wesleyne: You keep that cycle of doing and reaching and striving.
[00:17:16] Dr. Jim: You mentioned so many things there and especially the concept of, hey, who are the models within your organization that you can str you, you can pattern your career path to, but also who's gonna actually step out and give you a behind the scenes look of what you need to do to to move forward.
[00:17:34] Dr. Jim: And I think that's consistent with with a lot of underrepresented communities. So the really great points there. I wanna shift the conversation to is really getting at the data and the landscape from from a data perspective and what that data tells us.
[00:17:48] Dr. Jim: So when we're looking at advancing Black women, into leadership, what are some of the blockers from a data perspective that exists and how should those things be [00:18:00] removed or done differently so that we can create more space for Black women to step into leadership?
[00:18:06] Dr. Jim: I'm gonna have Sertrice tackle that really simple question.
[00:18:09] Sertrice Grice: Simple. I'll take it though because, data's my passion and I love talking data. One, one thing I always start with when it comes to questions like this is stop looking at just broad data, right? Looking at overall this is what's happening or this is what you're seeing everywhere else.
[00:18:26] Sertrice Grice: And look in your own backyard. Because until you look at your own data and see what's happening, you're not getting a full picture. So that's my number one piece of advice is if you really wanna support the Black women in your organization, let's start looking at the data in your organization related to Black women.
[00:18:44] Sertrice Grice: And there's a. Plethora of data, different types of data you can be looking at and should be looking at. And it depends on what your purpose is. So what's your why, what are you trying to drive? And then that's gonna help you with what you look at. And I won't give you a whole data lesson, but I'm just gonna give you a little bit here to [00:19:00] say, if you're thinking diversity, that's at the base level.
[00:19:03] Sertrice Grice: That's just representation. So first of all, figuring out, okay, we have three black CEOs, broadly. So how many black women do you have in your organization compared to other identities? Simple diversity. When you start to bring in equity, that's when you break it down by different policies and systems.
[00:19:18] Sertrice Grice: So who's being promoted? How many Black women do you have in your high pope pool? Your high potentials, right? In, in how many of your Black women are, in your professional development programs or going to conferences or whatever that. Seeing that in comparison to other identity groups is really gonna help.
[00:19:34] Sertrice Grice: And then on, and the next piece is inclusion. Inclusion are behaviors is what you do. So looking around and seeing, this is when we ask other, we ask your Black women, how are other people treating you and getting their input? Cuz that'll help you know if they're experiencing inclusive behaviors from others.
[00:19:52] Sertrice Grice: And if not, you can see what you need to teach other people, right? About how they should be treating them. And then the last piece is just feelings of belonging. That's self-report. [00:20:00] So asking your Black women, whether in a survey or in focus groups to get some qualitative data. , how's it going? You feeling valued, respected, seen, heard, and then going one step further and saying what can we do to get you there?
[00:20:12] Sertrice Grice: And the key there is what can you do? Because that's something else that happens a lot with black women is we're asked to solve the world's issues. And I saw this come up a little bit in the comments too, so I know we all feel it and though it's happening, we are at, okay, how, what do you need?
[00:20:25] Sertrice Grice: And I just told you to do this. I do think it's value nothing about us. Without us. We, you need to have that input, but you then can't make them solve the issue themselves, you ask them what they need and then you have to put in the work, the time, the resources to help them be able to elevate and move forward.
[00:20:40] Sertrice Grice: So that's my biggest piece. And I've been going for a while. I could add more, I could talk about this for days, but collecting your own data and then actually acting on it based on your specific needs from your specific your specific Black women employees. .
[00:20:53] Dr. Jim: I wanna bring it to a practical level and hand it off to Whitney. And not that Erris, what you said wasn't practical, but I'd like [00:21:00] a good understanding Whitney from. , an in the trenches perspective, because you've worked at a couple of organizations that had really strong d e I practices.
[00:21:09] Dr. Jim: How did you actually take the data and the feedback that the organization was telling you and put that into action to elevate women in general, but black women in particular into positions of leadership?
[00:21:21] Whitnie Goins: Yeah, and I feel like, so you can have this strong, what you think is Bulletproof d e I plan, right? But it's like that game of telephone, like a, at the top leadership levels oh yeah, we're all for it. We're so excited about this plan. But then somewhere the message gets lost in, in mid-management.
[00:21:38] Whitnie Goins: And that's honestly where a lot of people are suffering silently when it comes to microaggressions and having to deal with their direct managers. . So it has been interesting to, to implement these d these programs, and I absolutely love what Sertrice said a lot of times in order to make that strategic plan or those initiatives a bit more bulletproof, sometimes you just need that data, like [00:22:00] really relying on the data, but not focusing not solely on qualitative data.
[00:22:03] Whitnie Goins: So not just focus groups and understanding how people are, understanding sentiments, which are great. But also that, that quantitative data, so even as far as and sometimes it just takes sitting back and reflecting and understanding the root of the problem. So for instance, when we think about.
[00:22:17] Whitnie Goins: Let's say as a Black woman, maybe my issue is, I am not being promoted. I feel like my work, I'm not being seen for everything that I'm being to bringing to the organization. Yet I have colleagues who are thriving in mediocrity essentially, and are, climbing their way up the ladder.
[00:22:32] Whitnie Goins: What's the issue? So is it feedback? Is Whitney receiving the proper feedback? So one thing that we've actually talked about is pulling performance reviews and actually. Looking at the word count. So is Whitney what's the word? How much are you actually writing in, in, in Whitney's feedback?
[00:22:48] Whitnie Goins: Is it just that, oh, Whitney did a great job, but you're rating her as developing versus you're giving, her colleagues, these rave reviews paragraphs long. And so then it goes back to, okay, is the [00:23:00] problem within our leadership are managers not comfortable giving feedback to professionals of color or to Black women?
[00:23:06] Whitnie Goins: What's the issue there? So there's so many layers there and assessing what's, what needs to happen in each organization, right? Like even we talk about pay equity, for instance. My current organization, we actually do very well when it comes to pay equity where professionals of color are actually, Slightly overpaid.
[00:23:23] Whitnie Goins: Right? So where other organizations struggle with professionals of color and when it comes to a pay gap in gender or gender pay equity. So we're thriving there, but then it goes back to, okay, but what about representation? Where are these professionals of color and how can we get them in?
[00:23:37] Whitnie Goins: So assessing what needs to happen to your organization really starts. with the data and understanding those layers, and then for more of that qualitative data, accessing your employee resource groups. But going back to again, what I think the three of us have all said is the burnout, right? So now you're putting extra meeting and time on my calendars to ask me how I'm feeling to ask what you can do.
[00:23:55] Whitnie Goins: And I still have another full-time job to manage. So just being mindful how much we're [00:24:00] tapping people for that qualitative qualitative reassurance and input on what we can do, be do better as a company.
[00:24:05] Dr. Jim: There's a lot there. And there's a couple things that I want to pull into this discussion.
[00:24:09] Dr. Jim: You have the data now what are you gonna do with it? So that is an important question and I think I'm so that's one question.
[00:24:15] Dr. Jim: There's a trend where leadership is taking the data and evaluating it, but taking it personally and feeling attacked by it. . So those are big problems in terms of advancing any initiative.
[00:24:28] Dr. Jim: But if you're just doing the data analysis and not moving it forward, that's a problem. But it's a bigger problem if you're taking the data, it tells you what it tells you and then you take it personally. So my question to the panel, and I don't know if anybody wants to volunteer in taking this because it's a little bit of a wild card, how do you get over both of those blockers or obstacles?
[00:24:49] Wesleyne: One of my favorite quotes was popping up in my brain, which is initiatives go to die in middle management. . And so one of the things that happens is, executives sit up in their ivory [00:25:00] tower, they see all this data they're like, oh my gosh, it's so alarming.
[00:25:02] Wesleyne: And then they're like, okay, frontline managers, go fix the problems. Go fix it. Just go do it. Nobody's training them. Nobody's teaching them. Nobody's telling them how to fix a problem. Nobody's giving them a roadmap. And a lot of times what I like to, when we're working with leaders, I'm like, facts over feelings.
[00:25:19] Wesleyne: Okay, so what are the facts? Let's figure out what is being said. What is the impact of what is being said now? What do we need to do? And so literally taking it and moving it into a very granular fashion like that. This is what the data says, this is how it's impacting the organization. For instance, if we're looking at data and we're like, oh, okay, yeah, we're doing pretty good with our, with the black women that we have, but oh, in sales, in the engineering, we have only 3%.
[00:25:46] Wesleyne: I wonder why. Okay, so let's drill down into that. Let's not take it personally. Let's not blame the leaders for not hiring or not being inclusive or using the wrong practices or forcing people out. But how can we take what we know? [00:26:00] How can we use that and how can we get better? And so not always being offended, not always taking things personally because that's what's holding organizations back.
[00:26:08] Wesleyne: They meet and they meet and they meet and nothing happens. And so unless we take actions on the data, unless we actually have a roadmap, Then nothing will ever
[00:26:17] Wesleyne: change.
[00:26:18] Dr. Jim: Sertrice same question to you, what's your take on it? And this is especially, this is where you help organizations too. You're doing the analysis and helping them move that forward. So this is I'll be interested to get your thoughts.
[00:26:30] Sertrice Grice: I wanna build on what you were just saying Wesleyne and. to the point of you have to remember that it's not about you. When, for any human, whenever anything happens and you feel like you're getting feedback, you start to get defensive. You, it's just our gut reaction because we naturally want to believe we are good people.
[00:26:48] Sertrice Grice: And if we're good people, we can't do anything wrong. And if we're overseeing this company no, we're doing a great job. So it, all of those things start to crop up, and your immediate response is that has to be wrong. That is your immediate [00:27:00] natural instinct. But we can't live our lives by instinct.
[00:27:03] Sertrice Grice: And for some reason we forget that in the workplace . And we go and we, and into these we go into our ID and we just let it drive us. And you forget about the people that you claimed you wanted to help in the first place. So if you collected this data, at some point you said you wanted to help your underrepresented.
[00:27:20] Sertrice Grice: that was your goal. So you need to remember to center those groups if you've heard that term. That's what it comes back to. So before, I always tell people, if you're not ready to actually act on data, don't collect it. I sit here and preach all day about the importance of data and how that can help you.
[00:27:33] Sertrice Grice: But don't go out there making commitments and promises if you aren't ready to push that forward. And before making those commitments and promises, let's get some training done on interpersonal skills. And that includes things like empathy and centering. And so if you have those skills based in you, you are still gonna have those gut reactions when things come up that aren't going well.
[00:27:52] Sertrice Grice: Cuz none of us like hearing bad news. And, but once you hear that bad news, if it starts to happen, try and self-reflect and realize, [00:28:00] ooh, am I getting defensive? Do I need to recenter my black women in this scenario? And make sure that I'm focused less on. Maybe I did screw up, maybe I didn't.
[00:28:07] Sertrice Grice: Maybe it was someone else. Whoever it is, there's data here telling me there's an issue. What can we do to fix it? And I need to put my feelings to the side. Other part of that though, to the point of, I know allyship has come up a couple of times. You need to be comfortable and build a space where your black women or other leaders can step up and be like, Hey, feel like you're taking this a little personal and you need to remember it's not about you.
[00:28:29] Sertrice Grice: And when they say that, not get more defensive, but here and be like, oh, snap. You know what you are. I was flipping back into that default. Let's refocus the conversation. So that's my main thought there on, on how you're handling people who who get defensive when this is coming up.
[00:28:44] Sertrice Grice: And then in regards to, we, you have the data now what. that you need to do the actions that come up. But I will say specific things. If you look at the data and you realize you are not getting people in, okay, start looking at where are you recruiting from, where, how are you selecting, what's your [00:29:00] processes?
[00:29:00] Sertrice Grice: Are you doing blind interviews or if there is a pipeline issue, are you doing something to develop a pipeline partner with people or other organizations who are doing that work? So you can try and get more people in. There's a lot there internally focused though creating space for sponsorship because women in general are over mentored and unsponsored.
[00:29:19] Sertrice Grice: That means there aren't enough people who are putting themselves on the line and saying, Hey, but I support Whitney. I think that she can do a really great job. You need to give her this opportunity. And so if you're seeing that your black women aren't moving up, but they have the capability. Let's try and open doors for them.
[00:29:35] Sertrice Grice: But those were a few things that came to mind through this conversation.
[00:29:37] Whitnie Goins: I think one way that we tackled or attempt to tackle the, it's not about you syndrome is more so empathy training. And I prefer honestly empathy training over diversity training.
[00:29:48] Whitnie Goins: Cause I'm not sure if you can necessarily teach diversity, but teaching people why it's important, right? So when it came to empathy training, actually walking people through the different experiences and perspectives of their colleagues of different [00:30:00] backgrounds, right? So a as one example when it comes to why empathy is so important and then also holding people accountable I think it's important to tie those initiatives to the goals of your leaders.
[00:30:09] Whitnie Goins: I. To, to tell people, oh you need to do this, or you need to increase your representation, but they're not held accountable. It's oh, okay, whatever. Of course, like a leader isn't as long as my check is still coming in and my bonus still looks good, then of course it's not a priority. But I always recommend tacking it on to to be a part of their yearly goals where it does affect their compensation and, other incentives.
[00:30:29] Whitnie Goins: So for instance, one thing that we've done at, multiple organizations that I've worked at is actually require that when we're interviewing for candidates that at least 50% of those candidates have to be professionals of color. And then understanding that okay, once we select those candidates, that we are still looking at the data to see who you hired and if you're still only hiring a certain type of person, or if we're bringing you all of these qualified pro professionals of color and the, your last three hires were still all white men.
[00:30:56] Whitnie Goins: We're coming to you, we're asking you a que like, when you get that meeting invite from [00:31:00] Whitney. Just know that's what we're talking about. So to understand and really just put people on, the people on the spot as well, because that whole, it's not my problem. People have a, tend to take a very different perspective when you're calling them out on their bs, right?
[00:31:12] Whitnie Goins: To put it, quite frankly, no one wants to talk about it until, you're putting that time on their calendar and actually discussing and, asking them, walk me through your through your concerns, what's happening. And I will say inevitably, sometimes people will give you the feedback of, oh this person was just more ready.
[00:31:26] Whitnie Goins: They have, the industry experience is more of that term that we hear a lot, plug and play, right? But that goes back to addressing the system of racism and oppression, right? So yes, of course they have industry experience, but look at the. that has not been diverse, right? So the industry has lacked in representation.
[00:31:43] Whitnie Goins: So of course, if you're just pulling people from the industry, it's gonna be a just lateral moves and shifting of white men, right? So understanding when do we need to step in? How do we hold people accountable? Because yeah, sometimes just asking or telling volunt, volunt, telling someone to, or a leader to hire more diverse [00:32:00] representation.
[00:32:00] Whitnie Goins: You're not holding them to anything.
[00:32:02] Dr. Jim: I there's a lot in what both you and Whitney and and Sertrice have said that I really would like to expand. I I love the the point that Sertrice made about black women are over mentored and unsponsored. That's like an exact quote that Lawrence often says, and that's a problem amongst underrepresented communities in general.
[00:32:22] Dr. Jim: , and I'm painting with a broad brush here, from my experience I've brought, I've been brought up in the keep your head down in your mouth shut sort of environment. So I would imagine a lot of other people in underrepresented communities have been raised up in that environment too.
[00:32:35] Dr. Jim: So it's tough to, take that self-advocacy component of it. But Whitney, what I really like about what you just talked about and there was a lot there is tying executive or leadership tying their performance to.
[00:32:51] Dr. Jim: how they're moving these initiatives forward. , how do you hold leadership accountable? You gotta write that stuff down and make them accountable at the end of it versus what's often in the world of work [00:33:00] is that this is, all of these sort of things are seen as nice to haves, and we're seeing it now that as soon as the economic situation shifts a little bit, all of these initiatives that are designed to uplift broad elements of the population get backburnered because it's not it's not economically expedient.
[00:33:18] Dr. Jim: When we're looking at the specific challenges that. Black women face when it comes to advancement in general, but advancement into leadership in particular. , what are the things that people are either unaware of and what can be done to move those things out of the way? What can somebody like me or anybody in leadership do to be intentional about elevating black women in the leadership path?
[00:33:44] Wesleyne: So going on to what Lawrence mentioned is the lack of sponsorship. So if this is something that you really have a passion for. So even for me I'm a sales trainer, I'm a corporate sales trainer. They're probably like five black women [00:34:00] corporate sales trainers.
[00:34:01] Wesleyne: And I am so fortunate to have sponsorship, if you will by people who see me know what I do, and they say, Here's a fantastic person. You don't need me this time. How about you hire Wesleyne? So literally by offering your hand and putting your neck out on the line to say, Hey, I know this person does a fantastic job.
[00:34:22] Wesleyne: Why not offer them this instead of me? So what that does, going to Whitney's point of teaching empathy, it's like, how do I empathize with somebody? How do I put myself in their shoes? How do I remember when I didn't have that voice, when I didn't have that sponsorship, when I didn't know anything?
[00:34:40] Wesleyne: That's what we have to do. And really think about each BLack woman as an individual because there may be a person on your team that wants to rise to the highest ranks, and so your job is to help. Rise to those ranks. There could be somebody who just loves that position that they're in and that is what they wanna do, but they don't wanna have [00:35:00] all of the crazy BS and all of the stress around them.
[00:35:02] Wesleyne: So really seeing a person as a human, really seeing that woman for what she is and what she wants and what she desires, and helping her, holding her hand, taking her along, and giving her a voice. The biggest thing that you can do to elevate women into leadership is giving them a voice at the table. They don't have a voice.
[00:35:21] Wesleyne: Sometimes they don't even know how to find their voice. And then the final thing is, as women, black women, white women, I'll do this universally. We have trauma, we have stuff that we have dealt with in our background that a lot of times we bring to work and we don't even realize we're bringing it to work.
[00:35:37] Wesleyne: And so what it takes for us, sometimes the onus is on us for us to say, you know what? I always feel offended every time X, Y, Z happens to me. Maybe I need to do a little work on myself so that I can show up as my best self and I can have, I can attract the kind of people around me to help me get to the next level.
[00:35:56] Whitnie Goins: We keep coming back to sponsorship, which is so vital when it comes [00:36:00] to making sure that underrepresented communities are getting those opportunities. But you also touched on such an amazing point as far as like making sure that our sponsors.
[00:36:08] Whitnie Goins: Also moving with empathy, right? So understanding that women are less likely to go for roles if they don't meet 90% of the qualifications. And encouraging a woman to go ahead and apply for that promotion. Knowing what it's, it feels to be black in corporate America, and h understanding how, I might need that extra push or to look at things from a different standpoint.
[00:36:29] Whitnie Goins: Because also when you think about sponsors, let's say I, forged a great relationship with a, an older white male at my organization, and I ask him to be my sponsor or mentor, right? And so he thinks that he's doing me a favor by, giving me advice and things like that. But sometimes the advice can also be tone deaf because, no, I can't say.
[00:36:49] Whitnie Goins: I can't speak up in a meeting and say that because then I'm the angry black woman or then I'm an aggressor. Versus, so we know the different percep perceptions that men and women have in the workplace, but then also adding that [00:37:00] layer of race on as well. So making sure that if you are looking to be a sponsor or a mentor to someone, just making sure that you're aware of the fights, the multiple fights and layers of that, those battles that they're up against.
[00:37:12] Dr. Jim: What you just mentioned actually run, rang a really strong bell to something that you mentioned earlier that maybe the foundation for advancing all of these is that everybody needs to just have more empathy training, because I don't think a lot of people are even aware of the fact how, why underrepresented communities in general and women in particular and black women as a subset of that are hesitant to.
[00:37:36] Dr. Jim: Quote unquote be too loud because we don't want to be seen. We . There we, you don't want that perception about you because that can be extremely damaging. So I think I think that empathy training might be something that should be a core requirement of of leadership. So Therese, I want you to have the chance to add onto anything that was already said in terms of what people are unaware of.
[00:37:56] Dr. Jim: What could they can do to advance black women in their [00:38:00] leadership. What are your, some of your suggestions that you feel would be useful?
[00:38:02] Sertrice Grice: Yeah, I just wanna build on what's been previously said a little bit, and I'll be quick because y'all covered a lot of what I had in mind, but I really just wanna harp on the fact.
[00:38:12] Sertrice Grice: We like black women, we're not a monolith, right? We are not all the same. We don't have all the same needs. And so that comment about remembering the individual, that's how all of allyship should work. It's not that you support, black women as a whole, it's, no, I support Whitney, I support Wesley.
[00:38:30] Sertrice Grice: That's what you're doing. And that's about building relationships. So you have to get to know someone and figure out what their needs are. So if you are a specific leader and you're saying, how can I support my black women? Go take 'em out to coffee, right? Have some time. Get to know them, figure out where they're at, figure out what their goals even are because maybe they don't wanna move up.
[00:38:49] Sertrice Grice: Maybe they're happy and you're about, you're out here and you're gonna start throwing things at them, and they're like whoa. I didn't ask for all that extra work on my plate. Versus maybe they do want that. So building that relat. Finding out their long-term goals [00:39:00] and then helping them plan on how to get there.
[00:39:02] Sertrice Grice: Is it that they need more education? Get them those educational opportunities? Is it that they simply need exposure? Get them in the right rooms and make sure that they're able to then move forward. So I love that and just wanted to harp on that a little bit more. And then in regards to the empathy piece I like to throw this out there, especially for those people again, who get defensive or who are like, I don't, why are we talking about black women again?
[00:39:22] Sertrice Grice: Is at the core of d ei. , it is about being a good person, right? We wanna respect people. Cuz a lot of times they say that too. They're like I respect everyone. And it's you okay? Exactly. That's what I'm asking you to do. But you also have your black women telling you that right now they don't feel respected.
[00:39:36] Sertrice Grice: So what are some behaviors we can take to get us there? And so framing the conversation that way can help get people on board who aren't there. And then one other thing, if y'all haven't heard this before, that I really love that came to mind when you were talking about empathy is, we've all ho heard the golden rules, but there's also the platinum rule, which is instead of which is treat others as they'd like to be treated.
[00:39:55] Sertrice Grice: And so again, just tying all of that together, the empathy and the getting to know indivi [00:40:00] individuals, it's treat them as they want to be treated. If they tell you that they are having. Listen to that and make some changes. That's the best way to lead. It's communication is what it comes down to.
[00:40:09] Sertrice Grice: Build, building those strong
[00:40:10] Sertrice Grice: relationships.
[00:40:11] Dr. Jim: There's been so much said in this conversation that I wish we had more time to dig in deeper because it's not a conversation that lends itself up, lends itself to easy solutions. So I look at this as a starting point because it's not something that is typically talked about.
[00:40:27] Dr. Jim: There's a lot of things that are typically talked about and that's a problem. But this is separate from that. So I wanna get everybody's take on one or two key action items that. Folks that are gonna be watching this on the stream and the recording. What are one or two things that they can do within their organizations to more effectively advocate for black women moving into leadership or advancing in general?
[00:40:51] Whitnie Goins: Absolutely. And it, this conversation really reminded me of a quote that basically talks about, [00:41:00] until black women are free, none of us will be free. So talking about, what. , the systemic oppression that has been put into place and what that means for black women and being, dealing with one, being black, but then also being a woman.
[00:41:14] Whitnie Goins: And so the idea that until we are free the systems of oppression and layers that we're essentially fighting to get from underneath how it affects the rest of the world and the rest of the country. But when we think about, what we've discussed today, I just think about going back to, and again I'm big on empathy.
[00:41:31] Whitnie Goins: That's really when I think about my d e I career has been based off of training people on how to be empathetic and even the difference between empathy versus sympathy. And, empathy, putting your, really putting yourself in that person's shoes and acting on their behalf versus, sympathy is more man, that really stinks, but, I'm here when you get out that hole.
[00:41:49] Whitnie Goins: Yeah. I'll be over here waiting for you. So I would say one, moving forward I think Sir did a great job as far as saying we should address people as individuals, understanding that. And really that's why [00:42:00] representation is so important, right? I may be in a room and you expect me to speak for all black women, but as we talked about earlier and someone turned into a hashtag, we are not a monolith, right?
[00:42:08] Whitnie Goins: So my experience will be very different from someone else's experience. A friend of mine reached out today. She leads a black e r g at her organization and one of her. One of the members of the E R G who is a white male ally, was very excited and thought that he was doing such a great thing by, everyone that he came in contact today, essentially asking of them, do you identify as black?
[00:42:30] Whitnie Goins: So that he could tell them black history month. And so it's this like going back to we are not a monolith, right? Someone may be very, someone may appreciate that while others are like, that is the most tone deaf thing I've ever heard. So understanding that people will take things very differently based off their previous experiences.
[00:42:47] Whitnie Goins: So I'd say walking away those action items is empathy and then, what does the data tell you? And I think the data also does a great job of those people who are more strict on how can we move the business forward? Like you, you [00:43:00] can't deny the numbers, right? So making sure that once you have the data in place that, okay, now what are the actions behind it and tying it to those leadership
[00:43:07] Whitnie Goins: incentives.
[00:43:07] Dr. Jim: I think going back to something that you said earlier is that not only, leveraging the data and building action items, there should be an accountability component that comes after that too, so that it actually moves forward. Great stuff. Whitney Wesley I want your take on on what are the things that that you feel organizations and people need to do to advance this issue?
[00:43:29] Wesleyne: So I'll start at the top and I'll work my way on down. I'm gonna start with senior leadership. And so one of the key things that senior leaders can do is all of this data, all of these reports, all these meetings you're sitting in, really focus on developing that middle management.
[00:43:45] Wesleyne: Because the middle management is what is affecting your turnover. It's affecting each individual employee and how they feel, that feeling of belonging, that feeling of equity, who gets promoted, who gets let go. So really develop them, help [00:44:00] them to understand the importance of this. . Why doing this? Why really focusing on them, developing that empathy, developing this equitable team, right?
[00:44:11] Wesleyne: Because I always think about this as equity, right? I don't rest until everyone on in the organization is treated equitably, is paid equitably, and we all have equity. So how do you do that? You have to work with those frontline managers. And then to every black woman that is listening to me today
[00:44:29] Wesleyne: I wanna tell you that you are worthy, that everything that you're doing, all of that, , you feel you're carrying on your shoulders. Just know that you're not alone. Just know that if the organization that you're in right now doesn't see you, doesn't hear you, isn't appreciative of you, there are organizations out there that are, and I want you to show up as your authentic self.
[00:44:50] Wesleyne: Be the same person you are at home. Bring that person to work. And as you continue to develop in your career, you will achieve those goals that you wanna achieve. But keep being you.
[00:44:59] Dr. Jim: [00:45:00] I love the keep being you advice that is so awesome. Sorry. So, Sertrice I want to have your input on on what are the, some of the key takeaways that that people need to be thinking about in advancing this forward?
[00:45:12] Sertrice Grice: Yeah. First thing I wanna start with is just, not everybody's coming at us from the same place.
[00:45:16] Sertrice Grice: Some people are still figuring out, should we even be having this conversation? . And I wanna remind you that the answer is yes. Like I said, I love data. So I did come in with some stats I wanna share. Mackenzie does their lean in report and they look into women's experience, and they found a lot around black women in this last year, 2022.
[00:45:33] Sertrice Grice: Black women leaders are more ambitious than other women at their level coming in at 59%. They wanting to be top executives compared to 49% of women leaders overall. But they're running into issues to get there compared to other women at their level. Black women leaders are more likely to have colleagues questioning their competence to be subjected to demeaning behavior.
[00:45:52] Sertrice Grice: And one in three black women leaders said they've been denied or passed over for opportunities because of personal characteristics, including [00:46:00] their race and gender. . Now, I had some others, but I know we're tight on time, so I'm not gonna get into it. But the point is, there is data out there already telling you at an overall level how women are exp black women are experiencing the workforce.
[00:46:11] Sertrice Grice: But more importantly, like we said, get your own data, find out where your black women are, and then use that to drive your actions. And some of that data may be a big push, it may be at an overall level, but data doesn't have to be hard. It doesn't have to be complex. It can be as simple as pulling someone to the side and having a conversation with them.
[00:46:31] Sertrice Grice: That's data. And like I said, that building one-on-one relationships, there's so much power in that. That's the best way to help someone, is to get to know that person. And the more people build those one-on-one relationships, we're gradually gonna move everyone into the positions they want to be in.
[00:46:46] Sertrice Grice: And then we have that large impact, right? So it may feel small taking one person out for a coffee, but all of that really
[00:46:52] Sertrice Grice: can stack up. ,
[00:46:53] Dr. Jim: the
[00:46:53] Dr. Jim: I love how you brought out the McKinsey data retreat because the point that you pulled out about [00:47:00] personality being cited as a reason for being passed over.
[00:47:04] Dr. Jim: That is something that's really unique that women deal with in general, because I think and correct me if I'm wrong, or some, nobody yell at me if I get this data point wrong, but oftentimes in, in performance reviews, something to the effect of 80% of women have some sort of critique on their personality that shows up in their performance reviews, which has absolutely nothing to do with the actual performance.
[00:47:27] Dr. Jim: Leslie Vannas has the exact data, so find her on LinkedIn, but she was the one that cited that. So that's a great data point on the personality aspect, coming into these decisions when it really shouldn't.
[00:47:38] Dr. Jim: So before we wind down, I wanna make sure everybody can share with the audience and those who will be watching this remotely. Where can people find you? Search, freeze. We'll keep it with you. Where can people find you and what's the best way to get in touch with you?
[00:47:50] Sertrice Grice: Yeah, my name is up there. I'm the only search I know of in the world, so you pop my name into anything and I show up So you can connect with me on LinkedIn, love keeping in touch, or you can find me on at Fast Trace [00:48:00] on Instagram and I'm posting
[00:48:01] Sertrice Grice: stuff there too.
[00:48:02] Dr. Jim: Instagram's only for food picks. Wi . Whitney, where can people find you?
[00:48:05] Whitnie Goins: Yes. So I am on LinkedIn. Feel free to reach out. Whitney Goen. I do need to update my current role. I'm like four weeks into a new role. But yes, feel free to reach out and connect there. And then also because I was not doing that quote justice.
[00:48:17] Whitnie Goins: I did find the quote. So I did wanna share if black women were free, it would mean that everyone else would have to be free since our freedom would necessitate the destruction of all systems of oppression. So yes, I thank you Wesleyan for giving us the words of encouragement, affirmation, but wanted to leave people with that as well.
[00:48:32] Whitnie Goins: And just know that you're not alone.
[00:48:34] Dr. Jim: Yes, thanks for joining us. Wi Whitney Wesleyan. Where can people find you? Make sure you drop the podcast too.
[00:48:39] Wesleyne: Oh yeah. Thank you. . I always forget my podcast, so I'm just wessling on LinkedIn.
[00:48:44] Wesleyne: I have a podcast and I post daily sales, leadership, family life, all things amazing. So follow me, reach out if you
[00:48:52] Wesleyne: wanna
[00:48:52] Wesleyne: chat. ,
[00:48:53] Dr. Jim: I appreciate it, it's been a great conversation. I appreciate all three of you hanging out with me and, dealing with my [00:49:00] shenanigans while we advance this conversation.
[00:49:01] Dr. Jim: So I appreciate your insights if you want to get ahold of me, you can find me through Circa or you can find me basically everywhere except Instagram. Definitely reach out if you're dealing with with any issues from a talent strategy perspective.
[00:49:13] Dr. Jim: Make sure we're connecting and hopefully we have helped you do more with less in advancing your talent strategy by hanging out with us and hearing the voices of these great leaders. So thanks for joining us,