Squid #22 - Sisu

Shockingly there are 3 people in this podcast – DAS and Peter welcome their first ever guest, Donna Cooper – Services Leader and Untra-Marathon runner.

DAS kicks it all off by introducing a brand-new word (to Peter anyway) – Sisu: A Finnish word variously translated as stoic determination, tenacity of purpose, grit, bravery, resilience, and hardiness – and this is the Squid of the Day.

In the light of this Donna talks about her running experiences and challenges considering the value of a clear goal, flexibility of plans, and choice, and how this can play out in the business world.

Peter reflected on a quote by Tim Noakes, a 70 times marathon/ultra-marathon runner ‘Your body will argue that there is no justifiable reason to continue. Your only recourse is to call on your spirit, which fortunately functions independently of logic’.

Which seems to sum up a lot of the conversation and shared thoughts.

And it all concludes with Peter asking Donna how many trainers/running shoes she burns through each year.

Transcript

0:08

Welcome to the squid of despair, unscripted musings on business life leadership, creativity, transformation, and all the myriad of other work life events that get in the way of good night's sleep. Hosted by David, Ealing Smith, and Peter Taylor. Well, Peter, how are you today? I'm okay. Because, you know, I've gone through all those life traumas, which is moving house, so I'm glad it was that life trauma repeater, not one of the others. Oh, don't start with that, again, just behave. I thought you're going to be nice this year, and it's not working out. Now. I've moved house I mostly settled in, I'm in my new office now. So that's all sorted, that makes me feel comfortable and happy. So it's been a bit of an interesting few weeks. Good. Well, I'm glad we're back. It's been a while since we've done one of these and subject to the rules of this year, I get to choose a subject again, don't Arpita you do, shall we? Shall we go for it, go for it and ask the question, then. So does tell me what is the screen of the day? Well, Peter, I've been reflecting on the topics that we've talked about in the past. And it's interesting, I think we explore the sorts of the psyche of leadership and, and how our sort of emotional intellectual capabilities I mean, not ours, of course, but you know, how one's emotional intellectual capabilities or interact, to provide you sort of a unique manifestation of what you do. And, you know, we've talked before about how difficult life can be sometimes how tough work can be and how people do amazing things every day, and just managed to prevail, and continue to apply their practice whilst you know, the world can be tricky, but personal lives can be tricky. And so we've talked about resilience before, haven't we? That was spare 18 If you remember better, and I love the way you actually even though the numbers and, and the precursors, you know, we talked about the importance of hope, with respect to the resilience topic, with 13, by the way, yeah, yeah. And then remember, we are up to something are you optimism, squid, eight, optimism. That was a that was a popular one, actually, which was, which was good. And I and I'd like to spend some more time in this area, on another precursor to resilience, let's say courage and determination. I think they're very important attributes in terms of the way people conduct themselves and the way leadership manifests itself actually. But you know, courage and determination is a bit of a it's a funny phrase, really. And so I thought, I bet there's a language a bit, there's a word in another language that sort of speaks to exactly what I want to say here. And I found Ron Peter. So today I want to talk about system. So what sisu Si su system is a Finnish word, which has a wonderful definition. It means bravery, resilience, hardiness. It also has flavors of determination, stoicism, tenacity, purpose, grit. It's also actually quite a quite an amusing film. But that's another topic for another day. So today, Peter, we're going to talk about Cisco. Ah, okay. Oh, that went. Okay. I'm nothing. You can be really interesting when I write up the notes for the podcast. Okay. Today is system. Yes. And because it's a topic that intrigues me, and we have a guest today, Peter, excellent. We have someone joining us, who I think characterizes a lot of those attributes. And I'd like to welcome Donna. So hello, Donna. Hello, Dez. Hello, Peter. Thank you. Oh, it's so nice to have you. Welcome to the podcast. It's so nice to have another speaker on the podcast. I know people are very jealous right now. But, but don't I mean, we. We wanted to chat with you today. And you heard that we're doing sisu as a topic. And you Donna are an ultra marathon runner, I believe? Is that the correct terminology Donner to apply? You are spot on? Yes. I'm proud to call myself an ultra marathon runner. And so tell me and tell our listeners for those that aren't familiar with this discipline. So what what is an ultra marathon then? Well, in its formal sense, and I did have to Google it, is it anybody that runs a distance beyond a marathon distance, which is 42 kilometers, so anything beyond that is deemed ultra marathon. And for me personally, my my goal is the 100 Kilometer ultra marathon that that's that's the one I always target for annually and, and do all my pre training for I mean, we're going to come to the question, why don't because I mean, that isn't that's a big question in my mind. Why are you uh, you know, that knows I'm you know, I'm not one On for exercise, but today by exercising, but the reason, you know, I wanted to talk with you about this done it because a, you know, you and I have chatted about this and, you know, so impressed with the way you conduct yourself, you know, through this passion of yours. I wanted to talk with you and Peter about so, you know, what does this allow for this sort of sisu word? Because, you know, let me just perhaps frame it a little bit. I, I think, sort of having courage and determination when you're embarking upon your journey. I think it does facilitate, you know, coping with adversity. I think it allows for personal growth, because you're pushing your boundaries by definition, if you're doing something you're uncomfortable with. I think there's something to do with fulfillment here, you know, living your best life. And I think there's something around sisu courage and determination, which is about dealing with life's travails, which is where I started from, you know, that we all we all experience, we're all fully Floor view and beings we all deal with life and life has, for all its joys brings trauma and mourning and personal issues and work challenges and so wanted to sort of explore why, and then perhaps how does your ultra marathon running? Passion? How does that help you? What have you learned from that, that helps you perhaps speak to sisu and coping with adversity? So why don't we? Why don't we then go to Peters question. So why do you do it, Donna? Why are you an ultra marathon runner? Oh, gosh, the fabric of it's who I am, I define myself by my running and, and I guess, without intentionally setting out to it, I've built myself a brand in this corporate world of, you know, being able to execute projects and get NPS scores. People know me more so as being Donna who loves running, rather than donor that chases NPS scores and your on time delivery. So it is who I am. And running takes me to new places. It helps me meet new people, and really helps me understand something about myself. Every time I run, I find that I uncover another component of me. And that does come into all those susu factors of being brave, being courageous having grit, the intention to succeed, and sometimes dealing with not necessarily failure because I'd never deemed that I've failed but also not not going to plan a is my sometimes what I deem as as, as being that resilient factor of you didn't achieve your initial goal that you set out to achieve. So yeah, that the essence of it it is it is who I am. And and I find that is something that makes me feel unstoppable. And gives me that that outlet that I need away from corporate Donna to being Donna the run up. So interesting. Thank you. And by the way, Peter, personal branding was squared number 20. Just you are Is this your specialized subjects? mastermind. Awesome. Okay, so I guess you mentioned NPS and for anybody, listening didn't understand that. That means it's a net promoter score, which just shows how much love our customers have for us. And they have a lot on that for us, of course, thanks to the work of Donna and many other people inside the organization. But the the thing that always strikes me and it's going away from the kind of work, it's still running, but I always, always look on LinkedIn when you arrive in a city because the first thing you seem to do is get off the plane, dump your bag and then go for a run round the entire city. Is that is that kind of therapeutic? Or is that just a re energize you after travel? Absolutely. Those city runs actually give me an intense exhilaration and euphoria. So it's almost known as the runner's high, the moment I get into a new city, I have to explore it. And the best way to explore a city as we know is on foot. And for me I cover so much more distance because I can run the city but you take so much in and and there's also that flexibility of saying no I'm gonna turn left or turn right. Or I'll head down to the to the harbor, or or head through this park or that doesn't look too interesting. I might might just turn around and head back now. So there is I set out on these these exploratory new city runs just to see how far I can go and see what I can find along the way and I come back feeling a lot more connected to the city and then ready to go I'm positioned I've I've released some of the pent up exhaustion that happens after sitting on planes you sort of feel like you should be energized because you sat on a plane but you you pent up exhausted from sitting on a plane and arriving to these beautiful cities and an experienced that so you know that that is that mental and physical release that I get out of running a city the moment I arrive. Yeah, I can relate to that. I you know, I do a little bit of running donors, you know, and that's also one of my joys just running and exploring places. I don't know. I think there's something about you get your full sensory appreciation of a place to use the sights, the smells, it's the sounds, it's the people it's the man extra seats and, and you know, just so many adventures I got, I got stone's throw me once in Saudi Arabia when I was running, which has a story for another day, I probably shouldn't have been wearing no short sexy on reflection, but it you interact socially with the locale and the people in a way that's, I think, perhaps unique to running in a strange place. So yeah, no, I get that. And and I mean going back to the topic of sisu does that word resonate with you as a as an attribute donor? Are my certainly my certainly because I'm with every run, and particularly when you sign up for new runs, so you don't know the terrain, you don't even know how to get there half the time, you sort of have to navigate your way. You know, because we ultra marathon runners runners are known to go and run cations rather than vacations, we, we plan a weekend around an ultra marathon run in a new town that we've never been to. And it's terrain that we've never truly experienced. So it does require, you know, quite a bit of dealing with the uncertainty. You won't know the terrain, you don't know how tough it's going to be. You don't know the weather, you don't know. You know what gear you need to bring. So you're always prepared for any circumstance. And typically when we do ultramarathon running on your own trails, your mandatory gear pack is is quite extensive. It goes anything from well, I'm in Australia. So we need a snakebite kit as a mandatory item, as well as your compass, an insulated blanket, some basic pain relief, if you need it, that along the way, water nutrition, so you're well prepared, you have to be well prepared for anything that comes your way. Therefore, you know, the resilience and the preparedness really comes to play in that. I know that resilience was one of your susu characters. But you know, the ultimately, when you hear the course notes, when you start to read the course notes for some of these old trees, and they go for 100 kilometers, and you're in absolute varying terrain. And you know, you're you're scaling mountains, you're you're you're climbing over rock faces, you're doing river crossings, you know, there's really treacherous territory, and you need to be brave, absolutely brave to take all that territory. And it's there is no particularly one one course that I do the if you were to have a serious injury, you'd you press the emergency panic button, and the only way out is through helicopter. And so yeah, you're out there on your own. Yeah, you need to be brave. We're leading on from from from Desert, and we are going to come back at some time in the future does. So the story of Dad's been stoned in Saudi Arabia. That's because I think that has a different relevance in the country. But I had, when I write the notes up, you'll you'll it'll be a stone, don't worry about it. I don't know. I mean, I mean, just doing what you've described is is phenomenal, from my point of view in that sort of determination and drive to to achieve that. But maybe if you have a story about you know, perhaps a real system moment in one of those ultra marathons that rate things perhaps didn't go as smoothly as you'd like. Yeah, and I will liken it just I'll relate this story to my most recent, which is my last Heart to Heart run that I did and, and I thought I'd done enough preparation to really get me the whole distance that I needed to go without having to do a layover, or one of the hearts. And it was I was keeping my times beautifully. And I was checking into all the checkpoints with a lot of contingency. I had a good three to four hours ahead of me. And I just felt like I was flying the whole way. You know, I was really optimistic. I was just so certain. And I actually started the event. And the events, incidentally, started at 5am in the morning. So you're up quite early. And I was at that start line, absolutely determined to cross the finish line in 18 to 20 hours later. And I didn't have only had that plan A and never had a plan B, I thought I was well and truly prepared. This is my third go at doing the run. And I knew the terrain ahead of me and I knew that I could conquer it. But I was never ever anticipating I needed to revisit and alter that plan from a plan A and get to Plan B. So it was only until I was out on this ridge line called crosscut saw and it goes through about 17 kilometers. And there's a lot of sort of mini peaks along the way and one of them is called Mount buggery. And you come you come out to you have to climb the last one which is Mount speculation, and then come out into a carpark called Mount speculation. So there's a lot of Mount relief, I would have thought more appropriate yesterday. I'll put that recommendation into the course notes for next year. But you know those that tells you just how, how extreme and how much you need to dig deep as you go across cross cuts or to get to the very end and for some unknown reason is a monster wasn't feeling deflated, I wasn't feeling like it adjusted anything. I looked at my time, and I'd actually slowed right down. And there was absolutely no reason or rationale for it, I just slowed. And therefore, I started to do the future calculations, knowing that I still had 22 kilometers ahead of me. And I was going to struggle to meet the final checkpoint with which was at the healthcare get heart. And once you've done that, you go across back up to Mount Buller into the summit and into the village. And if I miss that, how could get hurt cut off? I would have got a did not finish. And so I had to then evaluate Well, what's more important to me, you know, is it more important that I finished the event, or doesn't matter? Do I go hard and fast as far as I can go get it and get it do not finish. And so what as I'm out up on the the cross cut, saw, I'm having to evaluate these options, and determine my next measurement of success, and then implement Plan B. So that was, that was really tough for me, that was, you know, it took courage to come to the fact that I was not going to make it in the 18 to 20 hours. And that I needed to build in that we do a layover and overnight stay in at Kings heart, which gave me an extra seven hours on my time, which didn't help but it's what I had to do, because I knew I'd miss. So yeah, the the resilience to bounce back was or bounce forward in this instance, because I had to keep going, there was no going back, I had to just bounce forward and be resilient and say that's okay, your plan B will be just credible. And then there's always next year. So you, you do get an opportunity to self reflect and say, You can be strong to this resilient and and know that your measurement of success, because you can measure success in in as many ways as possible. I'm still successful, regardless of the goal that I set out to achieve. That's a wonderful story. Because you're doing that, you know, whilst in pain, very tired, disappointed, you know, you're being hammered. Your expectations have been have been just, you know, just thrown over that cliff, and you're reevaluating what it means to succeed. I mean, how do you do that, then? Where do you dig into to achieve that refreshed sense of purpose, which was very different from your original sense of purpose? What, how would you describe that attribute? And what is that? Yeah, well, I mean, it's, it is that unstoppable boldness that I have in my character, where I do like to be unstoppable. And, and you know, and I know that I've got things such as strength of mindset, my, my resilience is there to be able to accept a plan B. And, you know, and like I said, I measure success in as many ways as possible. But, you know, this is all self guided talk that I have to do to myself out on a ridge line, because you're not in a big pack. It's not like a marathon where you've got a couple of 1000 people running beside you, in front of you and behind you, you know, where you are on that ridge line on your own, and you have four or five hours on that bridge line, you come into a check, stop, and you when you head out, and you've you've topped up your water bladder, and you're off, you've got three or four hours on your own, that you're you're making your own decisions, and you're keeping yourself in a really strong positive mindset. As well as you said, the complication of pain, you get aches and pains and headaches and, and that the hardest thing is you're fighting off dehydration and nutrition issues. So if you get down in in one of those elements, that's when you're actually withdrawn. So I ended up focusing on some other essentials in that point, and I can remember actually on, on that cross cut, I was I was realizing that my, my energy, my nutrition was actually low. I was I didn't have enough protein, believe it or not, I don't eat I'm a vegetarian myself. And to get out on that that ridge line and not have enough protein was was also a bit scary, but I knew I had a protein bar. And I transferred my focus in trying to keep powering myself along with another agenda. And that was the important which was a bit of survival as opposed to getting to the end end game on time because that could have been another area that would have made me stop midway in the in the pack. But yeah, the the the aloneness and the the enjoying your own company is another way that that gets you to the end, where you can really enjoy your own thoughts and, and have that release of just being inside your own head for 20 odd hours and love your own company and find that you can extend your thinking beyond what you you get stopped doing because you know when we're in a busy world of Can you can you attend to this, you stopped from actually thinking beyond just that one thought you've got to cut it short and address the next item. So yeah, those those attributes really came to play in order to get me to the end. But yeah, I can't say it was easy and I can't say that I was smiling. I do say also get teary it's in a very emotional event. And I allow myself to get a little bit teary. And and that's that's a good way of sort of of cleansing the soul a little bit. I've dealt with that negative emotion and you can get a bit frustrated as well. I'd list so I don't get frustrated. I just get determined and focused. But But cheeriness comes in it's not sadness. It's just a bitter reflectiveness. And you know, and then I end up singing songs to myself. So interesting, you know, you were saying you're inside your head for 20 minutes. I mean, I've been in an airport queue with Peter for an hour. I mean, it's just, it's just torture. And Peter starts, he whistles erupt and sinker himself, but was how do you feel about being in your own head for 20 hours? Vito, could you manage that? Oh, it's, it's a special place to be. I'll admit, I'm gonna deviate away from dad's trying to be mean to me again. So I confess, I have been googling stuff out there. And I was, I was looking actually at things that ultramarathon runners talk about, and there's a lot of really like, and I think this speaks to what you were talking about. Just now, Darla, this is a guy called Tim Noakes, who's done about 70, these ultra marathons and marathons. And he said this is your body will argue that there is no justifiable reason to continue, your only recourse is to call on your spirit, which fortunately functions independently of logic. That does that resume. Yes, most certainly. Because you know what your body doesn't give up, it's your mind. You, I mean, your body is so resilient and so capable. And, and I can always apply the pain that I'm feeling to somebody else's worse off situation. My grandmother always had this, this, this analogy that, you know, she said, Donna, when the going gets tough, and if you feel like you're, everything's against you, and you had to put all your problems in a package and put that package of problems in the middle middle of the room with everybody else's. And then you take your package of problem from the middle of the room. She said, I guarantee you take your own back. And she's right that you know, your set of problems and your set of pain and the set of you know that the challenges that you're going through at that time, are always manageable when you sort them out when you're willing to face them one on one and and know that you are unstoppable. And it is the mental over physical that is going to be the thing that trumps all that your mental drive to succeed and ability to believe in yourself to succeed is what's more, so going to get you across the line, then, you know, you say I'm physically can't do it. I mean, there are times yes, your body can give out because your nutrition, your hydration doesn't serve you well, or you may become injured. But you know, from a physical perspective, when you talk about exhaustion, and can I take another step? You always can, you can always find the energy to take that one more step. So what's a wonderful, so is your grandmother still with us? Sadly, it was only last year that she passed away. So sorry. Yeah, what a wonderful story, I would love to have her on the podcast. Well, I, you know, a small a small person example, you know, I've been through rehab a couple of times after your injuries and surgeries are connected with sport and running. And I can completely agree with you that it's the mental thing, once your body is actually ready to go, it's your mind that plays tricks with you and, and actually that's what that's that takes more work, you can go through all the physical preparation, but it's your mind that you have to work on so much, which I'd like to bring you back to sort of, you know, work life and personal life and and those wonderful stories you've told Donna associated with these physical goals you set yourself what does that taught you? Not particularly about yourself, but I mean, what does it taught you? And how do you think that that relates to you know, the the working life or one's personal life? How, you know, I said in my introduction, I think there is something about sisu that does allow for personal growth and fulfillment and so I'm sure what you've described, that has such relevance here in your everyday life and just wondering how our listeners can take away the the elements that we've been discussing about it and apply it to their own their own journeys, whether that's a sporting journey, or a business journey or a personal journey. So what is running towards you don't know what is ultra marathon running towards you? is certainly has taught me that I will I have a competitive streak and I don't want that to be my trump card. But you know, I do like to work hard to to be successful. So it's not about competition to win it's just bettering myself to ensure that I I've always got another goal that I'm chasing so they're always personal goals. But you know, I am I can't deny that that's a characteristic of mine in both the play field and the work field you know, I do I do like my at work to be successful and to to be to win in and not necessarily have a win win at the way there's a loser on the course it's more how do we all win win. So you know, in In a customer situation, it's like, I always look at where you want to be, you have have your needs met, and you want to ensure that your requirements, and you win out of this negotiation and same with with us. So I do see that competitive nature coming through. But you know, we also have a real sense of calmness now for adversity that not everything's easy. And not everything is possible. And your mindset and your character play a big part in in defining who you are. And when it comes to applying that where I felt that adversity, and I didn't have this in my younger years, but now I know that some things are just tough. Some things for other people are really tough. And so my adjusted expectations, particularly within my team, is that I know that not everybody could be a runner, like me, just like not everybody can be the best project manager, or not everybody can be the best at delivering customer service. But they may be the best at testing databases or something. So I've learned that you know, that not everybody can can do or achieve at the same level. And that's okay, because you just need to find your sweet spot, you need to find something that that is really the fabric of you, that you determine is your success. So it has given me a greater appreciation. So not only being competitive, but a deep appreciation for myself and others. And that empathy and acceptance of finding out traits and values of people that they that are going to make them feel successful. That's wonderful. Thank you so much, Don, this has been such an interesting and inspiring topic just to listen to you talk about sisu what it means to you and, and how you apply that to work. And it's allowed Peter a little bit more time to do his research on Google as well. So I think I think I think it's been a fantastic, a fantastic squid. And I quite like to conclude, Peter, I think I will try and draw it together, if I may, I may. So you know, my summary is simple. There are three people in this podcast. And it's been amazing. Thank you. Yeah, no, that's true. No, thank you so much, Donna. And, and so my, you're thinking about sisu? And what does it allow for perhaps, you know, we do have a list and we Peter in the broadcast, it feels like it it. It allows us to encapsulate some of the learnings or some of the things we've noticed, as we talk about these topics, so just thinking about how would we cultivate this? How do we cultivate sisu and apply it to our work life or to our personal life, and I think, and please chip in on it. But you know, what I what I heard you say was perhaps one of the most important things is, is preparation and planning. So perhaps set another way, it's about having a clear goal, it's about having a clear goal, before you embark on your adventure, your journey or your project or your relationship, you know, you have a you have a we have an objective in mind. And so you have a visualization of what it's going to be like and how you're going to get yourself ready for it with all that that entails with all the practicalities associated with that. And then as you embark on this adventure, whatever that is, there's there's a there's a discipline, perhaps a mental discipline, you were describing as, as, as being able to flip from Plan A to Plan B to to recognize the disappointment and the pain and the hurt and just acknowledge it and, and move on to the next part of your journey and whatever that's required. And however you do that. And then perhaps the way you do that is, is you describe it as being calm in the face of adversity. We've talked previously about sort of mindfulness and stoicism as being an important attribute of resilience. And, you know, I've summarized that as by saying, and it was so wonderful the way you describe the dynamics of this, but you know, the future is uncertain, in whatever we do. But it hasn't been written yet. And so you, you can choose how you deal with what's in front of you right now. And that is your choice. You can't predict the future, but you can decide how you deal with what's in front of you. And one of the overarching tenants we talked about before is it's really important to be kind to yourself during that process. And don't get and don't get assailed by you. We talked about impostor syndrome in the past, or the negativity associated with how we tend to be critical of ourselves when we don't achieve our goals. And so choose how you deal with the present, but be kind to yourself. Does that does that work as a summary guys? I don't on Yes. Does. I think you really have bought it together. I mean, yeah, collectively, all the thoughts that I've been able to share earlier. And you know, the only thing I'd like to add is just that that variation of focus. You're in i That's something I play in running is when when it gets intense and you do need to, to, to understand where you are at this very moment you look down, but then you can change your focus after that and you can look up and then you start to see the bigger picture. Yeah, and I think that that variation of focus is really important to that I learned in in running because both are needed. It does allow you to keep that whole sisu perspective in, in under management where sometimes you are looking down on the ground, you've got to watch where your feet are, you've got to dodge rocks, and you've got to ensure you don't fall off the ledge. And then others you've got to look ahead and look visionary, unlock strategy and look at the possibilities and and you go for those those bigger ambitious goals that you you know, you can bravely achieve. Lovely, lovely. Well said Donna. I have a final question before we close completely. How many pairs of trainers do you get through a year? Oh, gosh, yes, yes. Well, I do because I do. Because I also do HIIT sessions. It's three a year. I go through three. That's pretty good. Yes. Yeah, they are. They do max out. You know, I do get to you and they get some of them I overtraining. So it doesn't serve my knees. Well. Well, Donna been a great conversation. Thank you so much for joining us. You are our first guest. And you know, it's been it's been wonderful. So thank you so much for your time today. It's been an honor. I've really enjoyed speaking with you both. I love I love the dynamic between the two of you as you, you had these podcasts. So I'm delighted to be on your podcast and be your first guest. Oh, thank you. So leave the final words to you, Peter. I think today. The final word is I'm not going to go running. But I will definitely go for a bit of a walk shortly. And thank you, Donna. It's been inspirational. Yeah, thanks again. Thanks, Peter. By the right. You've been listening to an unusual podcast from David ailing Smith and Peter Taylor. More information can be found at WWW dot squid of despair.com.