LEAP Listens
LEAP Listens is a bitesize podcast hosted by Sara MacGregor and Roger Cayless who are both leaders in Employer Branding, Candidate Experience and Recruitment Marketing. In this ongoing series of podcasts they tackle client and industry themes and along the way host expert guests who provide opinion, stories and advice on the world of ‘people communications’.
LEAP Listens
What every talent team gets wrong about candidate profiling with Steve Betts
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In this episode of LEAP Listens, Sara and Roger are joined by seasoned TA specialist Steve Betts to unpack a part of recruitment we rarely talk about candidate profiling.
From outdated job specs to one-click apply chaos, Steve explores how hiring teams can go beyond the CV to truly understand who they’re looking for and how to find them. He shares why profiles need to evolve with the role, how to build them in partnership with hiring managers, and why too many filters (or too few) could be costing you the best talent.
LEAP Listens is brought to you by LEAP Create, an award-winning people communications agency. Find out more at leapcreate.co.uk
Welcome to Leap Listons, the Big Science Employer Branding Podcast. I'm Sarah.
SPEAKER_02:And I'm looking at it.
SPEAKER_01:And we lead Loop Create. Loop Create is a creative communications agency and we specialise in employer branding and internal communications. We work with in-house professionals to help bring the story of your company to life to help attract and retain your best talent. This is our sixth series of Loop Listens. And if you're new here, we chat to a variety of industry specialists about workplace culture and how to communicate with candidates and employees. And if you want to know more, head over to our website or Spotify for over 70 episodes to listen to. Welcome. Hi Rog.
SPEAKER_02:Hello, Sarah. How are you today?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, I am very well, thank you. I'm looking forward today to speaking to Steve Betts.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yes. Um I don't think we've covered this topic before, have we?
SPEAKER_01:No. So Steve is an experienced TA, and um we're going to be talking about talent acquisition. Yes, sorry, for those that do not know, which I'm sure people do know what TA is. I'm sure he is.
SPEAKER_02:Might think he's a teaching assistant.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's true. He's definitely not.
SPEAKER_02:Looking at his not that he couldn't be. I mean he could be. But he's he's more a talent acquisition kind of person, isn't he?
SPEAKER_01:Um talking about, sorry, I'm just trying to get you back on track. We're talking about candidate profiling.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, don't think we've done that before.
SPEAKER_01:We haven't. So should we just jump in?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, welcome to the podcast, Steve. Thank you. Hi, good to be here. Good to meet you both.
SPEAKER_01:Excellent. So, Steve, tell us a bit about you and um your career in TA.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so I I started um some years ago in agency. Um I think it's a familiar route that I think a lot of people take. Um we go from agency in internal um and work with brands in internally. I worked initially as a contractor, um at contracting for about seven and eight years, and moved from many different organizations, got a real good insight into a number of different industries, which has really kind of shaped, I think, how how where I'm at um at the moment, my own thinking, how I think uh TA should look. And then for the last four years, um in the gaming sector with with IGT, and it's been uh an excellent word for for me over the past four years.
SPEAKER_02:Fantastic. So today's one we were going to talk a bit about candidate profiling. Um and I don't think it's something that we've we've covered before, is it?
SPEAKER_01:No, no, not in we've talked about personas, but not candidate profiling. So, yeah, really interested, Steve, to hear more about that subject. Just give us a sort of brief overview about what what this is.
SPEAKER_00:Um I think for for me and what it means to me is is what um how you are looking for for your candidates and what you're looking for within those particular candidates, how you are looking to find um that experience with the uh within the people who you want to be applying, and overall building that profile from initial perhaps engagement meeting with somebody within TA to how are you then taking that to market and how you're marketing that opportunity to to the external and internal um uh candidate pool.
SPEAKER_02:So, how's that shown up for you? You talk me through a typical scenario of what that looks like and what data points you're using and what the output is, you know, how that profile manifests itself.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. I think the first thing is understanding from the manager or uh or stakeholder how your how your role's coming about. Sometimes we have new positions that get created, sometimes we have existing or or replacement positions, and firstly understand how that how that position has come about. It may be a replacement um where somebody has left, maybe somebody's been in the business a few years, um, and it's a case of finding someone similar to the person who had just uh just left. Um, it may be a new position. Um, and I think there's a number of different ways that you can approach uh both uh sort of elements of that. Certainly, if it's a new position, um then you're very much finding out you know the the the new points, but it's with with replacement positions, you're perhaps understanding um what we're doing, I guess, is is kind of using the same job specs, maybe that uh think you are used to higher the person who's left maybe 10 or 10 years ago, maybe if they've it could be as if someone's replaced from that. So really kind of building a picture about the role, what's what's needed within the position, what skills, how how the position has moved on, how it's been created, what are the exciting things that that particular role is doing at the moment, really talking to an audience um of um the you know, really being quite specific in that um uh in the audience you wanted to be able to talk to. Um, and you get that from I mean, I've through experience, I've got that through a lot of the hiring managers I've been speaking to. Sometimes you need to create a job spec from scratch. Um sometimes you can just manipulate something that you've used before, use something as a template that you've perhaps used before, but it's kind of quite bring that up to date and then using that as a as a focal point.
SPEAKER_01:Great. So when you're um reviewing a candidate's profile um or CV, what are the sort of first say three things that it is that you look for?
SPEAKER_00:I think that comes from the uh the key points that you ascertain with your your manager or your stakeholder. Um what what what what are those things that they're looking for? Maybe it's uh uh a techno a technology that they need, um, and what is uh what is that particular technology, how have they used that, and trying to understand that um from from either CV or from an initial uh from an initial call. Um and really finding out those kind of key points in that first meeting with your higher mind to understand you know what those key points are to be able to kind of find the the right people and the the right people for these particular roles. But I think the way tend to look at it is kind of having that quite a niche and focused search on the top level of people. I think that you know what what what's happening at the moment is we've seen a lot of things out in there, a lot of specs and a lot of adverts out in the market at the moment, which can kind of cast the net quite wide. Um and I think there's a a real benefit of being able to really speak to individuals where you want a niche to the group of people to be able to apply. You know, as a TA person, I certainly don't want to be looking through five, six hundred applications, for example, um, and hearing, you know, candidates who uh are having a lot of um, you know, making a lot of applications, but also um recruiters having to receive a lot of applications. So um the kind of key things I want to be talking to is that that real top-level candidates of who I want to be talking to, I want to be having a those that sort of conversation with a smaller group of people, shall we say?
SPEAKER_01:I guess with one click apply, it then opens the floodgates, doesn't it, to the volume?
SPEAKER_00:It does, it does massively. Um and one click apply is is great for for candidates that get a lot of applications through. Um, but for um for recruiters and for for businesses, do you you know, do you want volume? Uh and I think that's uh the the kind of question um that that people seeing at the moment is that you know a lot of what's happening at the moment is people are saying and receiving volume of applications. And I think um ultimately within your uh screening process, and I think um you know I'm a firm believer of that the application process is a real reflection of your brand and how how things are saying that I'm really uh you know, I'm really uh a firm believer of that. So if there's an opportunity to use those screening questions and use um filters on that, then use them, use them wisely, you know, and uh and and really understand what you want somebody to be saying in in those opportun in those in those uh in those screening questions.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I guess also um the employer brand becomes a real is like such an important factor in this, and your employee value proposition as well, about what you actually offer and what you don't. Um, I think that's also really important. I remember talking to James Ellis and he said, you know, you you want to find the needles in the haystack, not the haystack, so to speak, which is what what you've been what you've been saying.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. I love that phrase, by the way. Yeah, absolutely love it. Um do what was that?
SPEAKER_01:That was uh a needle in a yeah, you say it's um you want to find the needles in the haystack, not the haystack.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree with that more. Um, and you want you, you know, you do want that. Um, and if you can get to that point with you know, asking some really thought-out sort of screening questions, um, but also ensuring that that engagement has a human element to it, um, to it as well. Screening questions, you know, you look at some examples, you mean do you need a particular tool or technology within that? That could be maybe referring to a screening question that comes again from what I was referring to earlier. You're speaking to your hiring managers, you're speaking to your stakeholders about what the critical things are for the role. Specific tools, maybe, maybe you need languages for the particular position. Um, spoken languages I'm talking about here. Um, I I viewed uh a couple of jobs specs online the other day, and there was no um reference in it very late that I noticed it needed a spoken language. Well, that that to me is a uh you know really valuable uh quest uh screening question for make somebody think before they're kind of clicking on that that apply button. And there's lots more you know industry knowledge, for example, around what are we specifically trying to drag out? Um we see many years of experience, for example, many many people asking for X number of years of experience. Well, I'm not sure sometimes that 10 years is always better than five. In that maybe, you know, what and and and you can ask your higher manager, you know, what if you ask him for, oh, I need somebody with maybe 10 years' experience, what is your expectation of somebody having to have learnt within that 10 years? Is it something that actually, do you know what? Maybe it's a technical question, and maybe somebody who's been using a particular tool for the last five years has been absolutely mastered at, and that would make them more experienced than somebody maybe with 10 years. And and so yeah, there's some there's some questions and some um sort of follow-up questions that you can ask to kind of really break down what those real core um experience levels are to really form that right profile of the candidate that you're looking for.
SPEAKER_02:Where does I've got a couple of questions, and one is where does the ultimate responsibility lie between the hiring manager and the and talent acquisition for putting that profile together? So is it a sort of healthy debate between two people, or is it no, that's what I want it to be, and that's what you know, that's the job spec.
SPEAKER_00:I I yeah put me on a spot, I audio. I I like to think it's a it's a good debate, you know. I like that type of conversation. I I really like to understand you know what the key and critical things are, because you know, like like we were saying earlier, um, you know, you can get a um a spec from somebody um perhaps our employee, say Dave, for example, has left the business, Dave joined 10 years ago. Well, what over that time, how has that role changed? What are the things that have changed to perhaps you know, from what are the new technologies using? Are there different processes, are there ways of working, are there um different um situations that have been encountered over those ten those that time frame, for example, that has allowed the ch the role to um in to to grow, um to to evolve, perhaps. Um and then perhaps you know maybe it's actually, do you know what? One of the nice to have is maybe a particular tool or technology that that that place is moving into, that company may be moving into, and actually, do you know what they've used that before, that'd be great, that'd be brilliant to have. We're moving into that, that would be fantastic. And it's those conversations and those investigatory sort of initial conversations that that stem from that initial focal point of engaging with that particular manager that will build that profile, that will build that agreed profile. And to your to to your point to your question was actually, I think more it's that joint effort that you know we've got to find that right person. But how we do that is by asking some some good and challenging questions.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and there's a few points there because I think you know, I basically maybe not so much in bigger organizations, but certainly in smaller ones, you sometimes a sort of person becomes synonymous with that role, so you end up looking for another version of them rather than analysing the role that it is you need, and it might be that they've they're now in a different different place. Like you say, you're not going to find that person again with that level of experience because they've kind of grown into it. Um, the other thing I was gonna say was around because we haven't mentioned it yet, is AI and how you know most people now. I imagine they'll get your job spec, they'll stick it into chat and say what's the correct answer to this. They might well go to then some efforts to try and make it uh a little bit personalised. But how are you we were using much more of that? How does that make people differentiated? Would you recommend that as a good or a bad thing for people to do?
SPEAKER_00:Um, I think you question there just on a on on the first point of that is around the finding that to the person per person spec and what what um we're looking for, but also within that small organization that you that you spoke about there is what that person brings to the team and how can they improve that particular business. But you know, in in all organisations, it's it's that it's those sort of people, that those skills are not only perhaps technical but also personal um to be able to bring that team and how that role is also going to grow for that particular candidate. Um, you know, we forget sometimes that this is a two-way stream, um, and that candidates have their perception, they have their questions, um, as well as employers having their questions about what those uh what their their expectations are as well. And I think um, and that's what I was sort of speaking earlier about the kind of human element of that, and I think that's uh that's a really key point to ensure that um there is a human element to to to the uh to the to the improvement process. Um in terms of AI, I think anything that you use in AI you need to check. Um I think it's uh it's a massive um uh help, of course. Yeah, I think it's um it it shows for me, it shows creativity um that you're looking at using tools that couldn't perhaps enhance something, but also you know, within that there may you you need to to uh to kind of go in and personalise some of the perhaps some of the content that maybe it may come back, you know, does it talk about your specific projects, what you specifically did? So if you're talking about a tool or technology or a project, um you know, is that uh coming across in a way that is specific to you as a candidate? And is that being read as more of a generic response, or actually is it going into more a little detail around what what you did as a particular candidate? And I think that's really important to to to grasp. So looking at oh yeah, if that's um you know, people's problems to be able to use it, and it's coming more and more into the market, as we know. We can, you know, there's plenty of um content out there around this, but also it's a it's a kind of case of use it, of course, I think, but use it to a point where you know you're improving what you're saying about yourself in the context of how you can be defined from somebody else as well.
SPEAKER_01:Hmm. Yeah. How do you um balance out hard skills versus soft skills when you're profiling candidates?
SPEAKER_00:I think the the the the questioning to to candidates can be a little bit more exploratory around, I mean, I'm not, for example, a developer, for example, and uh you know, could I ask sort of technical questions rather than me saying to a candidate, do you have experience of X technology? Would it be more around a question of can you help me define or help me understand a project where you have been able to just kind of get somebody talking a bit more around what they did within a specific project? That would, I think, give me more of an understanding than than than perhaps a yes and no answer. The the the the tone, the uh the confidence in those answers would be more um, I think for me, be a bit more uh credible. Um and you can you guess credibility or ascertain credibility from those conversations? Yeah, I I I think so, and I think you should be able to be able to do that in in in in TA. The more you know, initially we're talking, uh, and I think Sarah, your question sort of refers more to sort of that initial sort of engagement um and that sort of initial recruitment outreach. And you know, people when you when you're calling them up, they're not going to expect an immediate technical interview. It's not about kind of keeping some putting someone off guard, it's not you know, certainly don't want to create that, you just want to find out a little bit more about their experience and can they come across an incredible way where they can explain that to somebody who perhaps like me is not particularly technical, maybe that may be a thing. And the ability to be able to do that, I think, is really really leads on to your next part of of understanding that sort of human element of you know, some of the technical and some of the non-technical skills, because if somebody can empathize and some speak to somebody technically about maybe something that's perhaps not technical, then I think there's there's other subjects that we can then ex you know explore around, I don't know, maybe teamwork or collaboration or or anything like those, you know, those sorts of skills that we can then talk about in a different environment where different scenarios could perhaps be used and even gauged and understood better.
SPEAKER_01:And how important is cultural fit, Steve, when you're when you're looking at that? Because that sort of leads on nicely, doesn't it, from the hard skills, soft skills?
SPEAKER_00:It it yeah, it does. I think it's in for me it's in in two part. Well, it's definitely in uh cultural fit for the business or what that person is going to bring culturally to that organization. How is that person going to improve or you know, develop that that that you know, what are they gonna bring to the the table culturally? Because I think that's an important thing. I mean, I think when we you know, oh that you know, somebody isn't um a cultural fit, is that because they aren't do they not say that actually they can form or do they not yeah, they're not gonna fit in here? Well actually, what do they bring? You know, what is that person going to bring to to an icon organisation? Maybe actually, do you know what they're gonna bring something very, very different, but very, very valuable to to an organisation, whatever, whatever level that might be. And and that's um, you know, I think that's really key to see if you can to drag out those particular skills to how they are going to value that organization within the recruitment process.
SPEAKER_01:Great. So, Steve, we've come to the end of the time um of our bite-sized podcast. Um, is there anything else that you just wanted to cover on this subject um before we ask you the final question?
SPEAKER_00:Um I I I think that we we've covered quite a lot. I think um certainly from from the profile, from the uh you know, looking at the application process and understanding that it is um you know a reflection of of the brand of somebody who of that organization, I think is a key thing to understand. Um and and just kind of re kind of reiterating the fact that that process to understand some of the questions that you're asking candidates, you know, really ask them wisely, really ask them in a critical way and think about them in a critical way. Um I'm seeing lots of lot at the moment around people being asked for things like you know, date of birth, caring responsibilities, you know, what parents did for a living when they were younger, and those sorts of questions. And I I don't kind of quite understand how that sort of fits in some processes. Um, I'd love to kind of speak to someone about that. I mean, but that's that that's great, but it's it's really kind of how you know does it detonate from actually the role and the candidate you're trying to find? We talk about kind of cultural fit and what somebody can bring to an organization, but also um, we've talked about sort of years of experience, industry knowledge, we can draw those things out of those screening questions and be really definitive about what somebody's looking for on the for that particular role are going to be the critical things for for finding the right person and uh you know getting that initial candidate profile, uh, building that candidate profile in partnership with your hiring manager. So then going to go and find that uh that that person or people for that particular team is uh is a really critical part of the process and as I say reflects massively on on that organisation or that individual who's hiring for the role indeed.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you. So the final question being if there's anything you want to share with the listeners about an interesting book or current listen that you have that you can recommend?
SPEAKER_00:I uh listen to the uh couple of industry podcasts. Chad and Cheese is uh is one um that uh industry HR Chat, and then I've just started. I'm a um I've been a football coach in the ThinkMart game for a long time as a volunteer. And I've just started the uh the woman's game, which is by Suzanne Rag, um, which I'm really looking forward to. So especially off the off the back of that um Lionces Euros win, I'm quite looking forward to getting stuck into uh into that book. A good read, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_02:Uh-huh. Excellent. Well that's excellent.
SPEAKER_01:Well, thank you, Steve, for um yeah, talking us through candidate profiling and what it means and um how you approach it. I think it's been um yeah, really interesting.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_01:And there is our leap lift again, Roger. Right, what are we lifting about today? Can you see my enthusiasm for this one?
SPEAKER_02:I can. You feel more enthusiastic than you've ever felt before about a leap lift.
SPEAKER_01:I know I can't wait to get stuck in. And uh today we're gonna be talking about email talent pools.
SPEAKER_02:We are, and um, I mean that was the line in my script, but that's absolutely fine, Sarah.
SPEAKER_01:Q Sarah. Ah, one of my favourites. In actual fact, it is actually one of my favourites. I do love a bit of email talent pools. So um building and nurturing email talent pools is um one of the most cost-effective recruitment marketing channels available. It's all owned data, and what we can do at Leap Create is help you um scope that out perfectly to a perfect strategy to help keep potential candidates engaged and informed about your company.
SPEAKER_02:That's right. We design and build custom email nurture programs that keep talented candidates updated on company news, culture insights, and relevant job alerts, keeping your brand top of mind when they're ready to make their next move.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, and it's uh it's brilliant for creating um that warm and engaged talent pipeline. And um what we've done is we've crafted some really great email campaigns to help nurture, like I say, that owned data, which is a much more cost-effective way than um, say paid social or um constantly paying for new job awards, which is obviously all still very important, but it's definitely a channel which I think gets massively overlooked.
SPEAKER_02:It does. And what we can do is design and build emails that suit specific recruitment needs. So whether that's at graduate programs or you need senior leadership or you've got very niche technical roles, then I recommend that you talk to us about getting started with your email talent pool strategy.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, talk to us. Give us a give us a call or uh drop us a DM in in LinkedIn.
SPEAKER_02:Slide into another DMs.
SPEAKER_01:Right?
SPEAKER_02:Good. All right, well we've arrived.