Why PR could be your missing channel in employer brand with Jules Fisher

PR isn’t usually the first channel that comes to mind in employer branding, but maybe it should be.

In this episode of LEAP Listens, Jules Fisher from Merchant joins Sara MacGregor and Roger Cayless to explore how PR can play a much bigger role in shaping how organisations are seen by potential candidates, especially those who aren’t actively job hunting.

From uncovering stories already sitting within your business to building credibility through media, thought leadership, and even LLM visibility, the conversation looks at how PR can help create a more consistent, compelling employer brand beyond your careers site.

If you’re only thinking about job ads and social when it comes to talent attraction, this one might change your perspective.

LEAP Listens is brought to you by LEAP Create, an award-winning people communications agency.  Find out more at leapcreate.co.uk

Transcript

Introductions And Why PR Matters

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Hi Rog. Hello, Sarah. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 0:02

I'm good. How are you?

SPEAKER_03 0:04

Very well, thank you. Very well.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Good. Well, I'm looking forward to talking about PR today as a channel for employer branding. A little bit different.

SPEAKER_03 0:14

Yes, don't think we've done that before, have we?

SPEAKER_02 0:16

And no, and I think it's one that sort of gets overlooked, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03 0:21

It does. It does. I think that we've always seen PR as a kind of slightly separate thing, hasn't it? A sort of bit of a mysterious world that kind of crosses over a bit with ours, but not that often. So uh it'll be interesting to talk to someone who understands how that crossover can work.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Yeah. Well, should we just jump straight in? Let's do it. Welcome to the podcast, Jules. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Thanks for having me. So, Jules, tell us about you and your work at Merchant. Yeah, so I work for Marketing and Comms Agency Merchant. Um, we're a predominantly B2B focused agency, and I'm the PR and comms lead. I work closely with our clients to understand their business objectives and translate these into comms strategy, which our team then executes. Um I'd say employer branding isn't necessarily our clients' top priority when they come to us. It's often about a launch or a big announcement or they want to generate leads. But as our working relationship develops and the company grows, they ultimately need to recruit and then we show them how PR is another string to their bow in going about this.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Great. So today we're going to be talking about PR in employer brands. So when we talk about employer brand channels, PR doesn't always make the list. And why do you think that is?

What PR Adds To Employer Brand

SPEAKER_00 1:46

I think it can be quite sort of internally focused. Um, and so probably thinking about the obvious things when it when it does become external, like what does the career site say? Um, you know, what does the job ad say? But actually it should be thought of as a sort of ongoing um external um opportunity to you know position your company in the way that you'd want candidates uh to understand the people within that um and the way that you operate. Um so I think there's a really big opportunity um to be to make sure you're saying the right things through things like and media um because it all helps to build a picture of of your business and ultimately attract the right candidates.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

I feel like I don't know if you agree or and you agree also, Sarah, that PR has always been seen as very much a different thing. So it's like oh they've got a PR agency, or or you know, it's very much sort of delineated. Do you think that uh well why is that, firstly? And secondly, do you think that those lines are becoming more blurred between what you might call traditional agencies or and PR?

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Absolutely. I wonder if part of it's because you traditionally you had PR agencies and marketing marketing agencies and they were very separate. And I'd say with the sort of digital um advent of digital, that's become a lot more blurred. So I would definitely say the lines are blurred. And I'd say that a lot of PR agencies are no longer solely PR agencies, you know, they they offer the whole mix. So I'd say that's where they definitely have have come together. Um, and you know, PR is a is a you know a specialist area, you need to have strong media relationships. Obviously, media is only one part of PR, but strong media relationships. So you do need the right people to be building the the right skills, um, and they are different to some of the broader marketing skills, but um there's definitely a lot more crossover these days.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

I mean it's interesting because PR isn't wouldn't be a go-to channel for an employer brand strategy, like you said before, Jules, it's around the career site, the social strategy, and the you know, the job ads itself. But PR could actually be a really interesting layer, particularly reaching, I'd say, like passive candidates, so people that aren't actively hunting, you know, they're not on those job boards, they're not on those career sites. So, how could PR help reach those people?

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Yeah, so I think you know, positive news about your company in the media that future candidates, you know, read every day is only going to help with positive signals and when they do start looking for a role, or if they see a positive news article about your business, they might even it might even pique their interest there and then, and they'll go and find out more about you and it snowballs from there. Um, and you know, local and regional stories is really important. Um, you know, if you've got a company opening a new office or you're taking on new um team members, you know, that's demonstrating growth. Um, so um, you know, showing that you might be hiring in the area further uh and you get you're getting on the radar of local talent. So yeah, it's it's um it's a great way to build that kind of positive picture. And also importantly, you know, you do need to make sure that your messaging aligns across all everything you're saying, specifically talking to the those career those candidates who are looking, actively looking, but making sure that same messaging is then being um repeated across you know other channels so that there is a cohesion and you're not saying one thing to immediate prospects and something very different or looking very different to those more passive candidates.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Yeah, and this is probably this is through like a talent lens, isn't it? Rather than when you say, with regards to the PR, that you you don't want to just rely on all the corporate stories and um winning new clients and things like that. This is really specifically around what talent stories that you can tell. Like you say, if there's a new office um or a big project's been one and there there's a big recruitment drive, that's such a good opportunity, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, as I said, it sort of demonstrates growth. So it's a really positive way of showing the type of company you are and and showing that kind of stability, um, demonstrating all those things that you would want people to be understanding about your business, that sort of external face. Um so yeah, it's a huge opportunity.

PR In The Age Of LLM Search

SPEAKER_03 6:25

So in the olden days, you had your broadcast media, print media, when you think about PR, you it was about controlling a narrative that you got to um where you had an opportunity to say what that was to people in the age of um channels which are just a continuous conversation. How do you cope with that? How does where's PR's intervention? Where's where does it fit in?

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Um so I think it's really important, it's a good opportunity to talk about um LLMs, language learning models. So I think um we're talking about you know visibility of companies, people are going more and more turning to um AI to search for things. Um, and actually, if someone's looking at your company, they might be going there to see what you know what's being said. So, and it's really interesting that LLM response at the moment are responsible for 61% of the answers. So, if candidates are looking at the reputation or visibility of a company, you know, earned media is also helping with this. So I think that's a really important one. Um, and you know, so all those sort of organizational values um that are important to the company can all be sort of translated um via these stories. So it might be, you know, we've talked about local news stories, um, but also what the individuals are saying, and not just the CEO. Um, the CEO is obviously um, you know, might be talking about um the technology within a tech title, but also there might be a specialist within the team who's talking at more of a niche trade title, uh, and that's demonstrating their sort of passion and the innovation. Um, and again, that's just that's another sort of trust mark for for someone who might be considering your your company.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

What happens, Jules, if the company doesn't have really anything exciting to share? How do you then find a story that isn't going to be an obvious one? How could companies try and use this channel? Um, what ideas would you have or what suggestions would you have for them?

Finding Stories Through Thought Leadership

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Yeah, absolutely. I what what we do with a lot of our clients is sort of um story mining and um one area that we're very successful in is thought leadership. Um so I've sort of touched on that, but um, you know, where they're where people, you know, individuals within the business are very, you know, have a real point of view that's perhaps different to what a lot of others are saying that gives them that point of difference, um, leveraging that and turning that into kind of an authority piece and authority editorial, um, it can be a really good way to um be able to have something um of interest to a media title. Um, so definitely anything that's that's potentially against the grain is always a good way. But also, you know, talking to individuals in the business, you might uncover a little nugget that a customer has mentioned that actually that's a really that could turn into a really big story uh or a you know very niche report that they've come across that I wouldn't necessarily have seen, you know. So bringing all these things to light um through sort of regular sessions with key people within the business, you can come up with all kinds of weird and wonderful ideas that you can be that can be leveraged. And also when we obviously was talking predominantly media, but I'm also thinking um in terms of wider sort of PR channels like events, um, like influencers. So if you know you can get um something quite quirky around your business in front of an influencer, that's another channel, um, another way of getting in front of people who might be engaging with that influencer who could be a potential candidate down the line.

SPEAKER_03 10:14

Do you do much benchmarking when you start a relationship? So you're looking across a business and finding out what their reputation is at the moment, and then you're tasked with presumably sort of moving the needle on a number of different metrics. So there's going to be a few questions in one here. So, first of all, how and do you do the benchmarking? Secondly, what sort of things are you typically measured on?

SPEAKER_00 10:41

So the obvious things like um the types of coverage you're getting, um, that you know how much of that is positive, um, you know, you're reaching the right audiences through that um coverage. Um have announcements, for example, led to uh website traffic spikes? Um, has it led to more people uh following you on LinkedIn? Um so there's lots of different, you know, finding those channels where you can measure the impact of that um additional visibility are good. But also what we're doing more now is um looking at prompts and tracking prompts. So looking at I've heard recently at an event that you should have at least a hundred prompts that you're tracking. So the kinds of things that people would be um searching within um an LLM and using those, so doing those every sort of month or quarterly um and looking to see how your how company's visibility is is hopefully um increasing um in response to those prompts. So that's another another layer to that measurement.

SPEAKER_03 11:49

Wow, it's kind of the new SEO, isn't it? Really?

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 11:54

Um do you think it I don't know, do you do you think it will sort of eventually obviously you had sort of black SEO and people were penalized for that? At the moment, obviously, we're kind of relatively new to this world, so people are probably in a position where they're able to influence results through activity like that. Do you think there'll be a a time where there's rules or algorithms get wise or that whole thing is monetized through ads?

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Well, already it's being monetized, so you are having some um of the big um newspaper groups, for example, striking deals with Chat GPT or Claude so that their content comes up um ahead of other content. So there's already lots of you know backroom conversations being had. So I think yes, there will be more and more ways to um manipulate. Um I don't mean necessarily mean that negatively, but but you know, tactics and and tricks to to help um you know to help get the best out of those four four companies.

Building An EVP With PR Partners

SPEAKER_03 12:59

Yeah, so it's really fascinating, isn't it? Because I think people have a slightly different relationship with uh an LLM to that they do with Google, which is that I think you know you're expecting now search results. You you know that they're paid for things, you know, you can kind of see that from the fact that sometimes you search one thing and you get a result for uh for its competitor. But um but yeah, but I think people don't necessarily they're a bit unsuspecting maybe when it comes to an LLM and they the general public probably don't realise that that kind of stuff is happening in the background.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And like you say, it's it's still early days, so I think probably it will become more and more evident, but at the moment it's uh it's not necessarily obvious. But yeah, advertising will be an uh uh an interesting one. I'm not quite sure how that will how that will manifest in terms of sort of taking some of what people have been doing in Google um and aiming that more at the LLMs, but yeah, it's uh yeah, watch this space, I think, on that.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

Yeah, and and also the whole job search as well for people looking for new roles. Um whereas before, like you say, you'd go to Google, you'd go to LinkedIn. How are people using these engines to search or research roles? So, how can companies then help influence their reputation? And I guess this is where PR then becomes really important as part of the channel strategy to help with that positive reputation side. So my question would be if someone was launching, say, a new EVP, a newer employer brand, where would they start with looking at the PR as a channel?

SPEAKER_00 14:49

So I think it would be, you know, what what ultimately what are your objectives? Um and and how can a sort of PR strategy deliver on those objectives? Um how are we going to measure success? But then it's yeah, working out, I guess, what um what stories you already have that could be um shared without too much um sort of effort, but then also okay, what else can we be doing to find those little sort of news hooks or nuggets that we can use across the right platforms to attract, you know, to gain attention and to um or well not necessarily gain attention, but to make sure that it's sending the right positive signals so that when someone is searching, um you know, it's it comes back to that point I made that the messaging is cohesive with all your other um sort of employer-focused messaging, um, and ultimately that it's hopefully positive uh and supporting your reputation. So, yeah, so reputation management is another one, you know, how if there is a crises, um, you know, have you got a plan in place to sort of deal with that and make sure that that that's managed as you know professionally as it can be to um to so that you don't you come the company comes out unscathed and and it's still positive, as positive an outcome as it can be?

SPEAKER_03 16:19

So um keeping the theme of employer branding and careers and job searches, um how can employer brand agencies or people commons agencies as we are sort of be happy bed fellows with with a PR agency? Where's those lines drawn? How do you think they can get the best out of each other?

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Um, I think um you know, communication right from the beginning around um objectives, and then I think those the teams working very collaboratively. So I think rather than working in silos, again, you know, we're talking about cohesive messaging, it's really important that everyone working for that brand is all working from the same messaging, the same positioning, so that there is that consistency because you what you don't want is someone going onto a career site um and seeing one thing and then reading something very different in the news or you know within a within a trade title, for example. So very much collaboration across the teams, working together, visibility over any output from anyone, so that it's it's a really cohesive um cohesive you know journey. Um and yeah, I guess I guess that comes down to meetings as well, you know, having the right people in the room for certain conversations, so that there is that thinking across across teams rather than within you know a specialist team who might not be thinking about the wider connotations or opportunities.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

That's great. I'm really fascinated by it. I'm really interested to know so much more and also how yeah, we could work together with more sort of the PR side of things to help amplify PvPs, employer brands, and um say brand reputation in in those uh AI tools. I think it could be a really interesting thing to explore.

SPEAKER_03 18:18

Well, I think there's a whole load of companies and probably ones that are quite technical themselves that haven't quite caught up yet with the fact that LLMs are forming a massive part of search and people that are trusting their results so they could be focusing in all the wrong areas.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

Yeah, so well hopefully this will spark some further discussions and it could be interesting to see where this goes.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

But um yeah, and I think I think the importantly no one really on the LLMs, no one has all the answers because it is just changing all the time. So, you know, it's it's also uh the you know PR's job, you know, specifically around the PR opportunity to kind of keep abreast of all the you know what how it is evolving to make sure that they're getting the best for their for their clients. So yeah, it's um it's uh yeah, very much a moving beast at the moment. Well, I think we've come up to time now, haven't we?

Reading Picks And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_02 19:15

Just over our bites. I know it's um I think we've covered quite a lot really in just the the short space of 15 minutes, but um we have one final question, Jules. Um Roger, do you want to do the the honours? Yeah, I can.

SPEAKER_03 19:33

Is that because we sometimes forget to prepare people? So then it sprung upon them. Sorry. Um so Jules, we do uh like to ask people if they've got any current reads or listens that they recommend, or as simple as what you what you're currently listening to or or reading. It doesn't have to be tremendously highbrow, no, it could be anything. Yeah. We've had all sorts. If you've got something that you specifically want to recommend or related to this topic that you think you know, I'd urge people to read or listen to X, Y, and Z, then that's great too.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

But I think just specifically, if you want to read more around the um LLM's kind of you know, the the GEO element, then I would definitely look at Stephen Waddington's work um on this. He's yeah, he's about to publish a book, um, and he's very on top of the you know, algorithms, the changes, the what it means for PRs, the opportunities. So um definitely that would be my recommendations, check out what he's talking about. Um and in terms of what I'm reading, it's far more lowbrow. Um, so I've but I've got really into audiobooks and I'm realising they are just such a um uh an opportunity when I'm travelling, um, you know, when I'm just in the car commuting to work to the office, it's um of a great way for me to absorb books because I feel like I have less and less time to do that in my own time these days, um, to actually read. So, and I really like a good old detective novel. And I'm listening to um the four Thursday Murder Club book at the moment.

SPEAKER_03 21:07

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

It's read by Fiona Shaw. I don't know if you know the actress. She's in like three men and a little lady, I think. She's absolutely brilliant. So yeah, she does all the accents, and yeah, it's fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 21:18

Fantastic. Oh well, I I'm currently re-listening to all of the Sherlock Holmes stories by Stephen Fry.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Yeah, excellent. Oh, yeah, I can imagine he's got a lovely voice. I can imagine.

SPEAKER_03 21:28

He has. He plays all the parts too.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

Yeah, it's good, it's good when they get into character.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Like it. Brilliant. Well, two very good recommendations there. Thank you. Thank you so much, Jules. It's been great speaking to you and to you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 21:42

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

Well, that was brilliant, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 21:46

Yes, great talking to Jules there.

SPEAKER_02 21:48

Yeah, and she's given us quite a lot to think about. I think if you're working in employer brand, then and you've been ignoring PR as a channel, it might be a time now to have a conversation. With your comms team.

SPEAKER_03 22:01

Yeah. Yeah. And especially the things that she was talking about with large language models. Yes. Um, because you might think that some PR agencies are kind of, you know, could ignore that and hope it goes away. But she's obviously all over it, isn't she? And seeing it as a the importance of it and it forming and you know, be big already being a new a channel, you know, that's that's widely used.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

Absolutely. So if you enjoyed this episode, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you've got questions or thoughts on PR and employer brand, drop us a comment or get in touch. Thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_03 22:41

Thank you very much.