Two Become Family Podcast: Conversations and Encouragement For Your Catholic Family
Welcome to the podcast where we echo the words of St. John Paul II and encourage families to "Believe in what you are!"
We are Renzo and Monica Ortega, we've been married 13 years, we have 5 kids, and our apostolate, Two Become Family, encourages Catholics who love the Church, love each other, and still feel like marriage and family life is harder than it's supposed to be.
Through our very candid, and sometimes uncomfortably vulnerable, conversations about sex, NFP, conflict, family life, we hope to spark conversations between you and your spouse leaving you with a little more joy and a lot more hope that you have what it takes to be a family.
Visit us at https://twobecomefamily.substack.com for more for your marriage
Two Become Family Podcast: Conversations and Encouragement For Your Catholic Family
Should I Ask My Husband? (Clearing Up the Marital Debt Confusion)
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St. Thomas Aquinas - Summa Theologiae
Question 64: Things annexed to marriage, and first the payment of the marriage debt
Article 9: Whether one spouse is bound to pay the debt to the other at a festal time?
"I answer that, Since the wife has power of her husband's body, and "vice versa," with regard to the act of procreation, the one is bound to pay the debt to the other, at any season or hour, with due regard to the decorum required in such matters, for this must not be done at once openly."
"For it is ordained by God, on account of the weakness of the flesh, that the debt must always be paid to the one who asks lest he be afforded an occasion of sin."
Article 4: Whether a menstruous woman should or may lawfully pay the marriage debt to her husband if he ask for it?
“[...] she would not be bound to pay it if she had some personal ailment so as to make it dangerous for herself [...]”
Article 5: whether husband and wife are equal in the marriage act
"[...] But with reference to the second kind of equality, they are equal in both matters, because just as in both the marriage act and in the management of the household the husband is bound to the wife in all things pertaining to the husband, so is the wife bound to the husband in all things pertaining to the wife. It is in this sense that it is stated in the text that they are equal in paying and demanding the debt."
Pope Pius XI Encyclical - Casti Connubii
Paragraph 23
“For matrimonial faith demands that husband and wife be joined in an especially holy and pure love, not as adulterers love each other, but as Christ loved the Church. This precept the Apostle laid down when he said: "Husbands, love your wives as Christ also loved the Church," that Church which of a truth He embraced with a boundless love not for the sake of His own advantage, but seeking only the good of His Spouse. The love of which We are speaking is not that based on the passing lust of the moment nor does it consist in pleasing words only, but in the deep attachment of the heart which is expressed in action, since love is proved by deeds. This outward expression of love in the home demands not only mutual help but must go further; must have as its primary purpose that man and wife help each other day by day in forming and perfecting themselves in the interior life, so that through their partnership in life they may advance ever more and more in virtue, and above all that they may grow in true love toward God and their neighbor, on which indeed "dependeth the whole Law and the Prophets."
St. John Paul on 1 Cor 7:2-5
These statements of St. Paul have given rise to the opinion that marriage constitutes a specific remedy for concupiscence. However, as we have already observed, St. Paul teaches explicitly that marriage has a corresponding special "gift," and that in the mystery of redemption marriage is given to a man and a woman as a grace. In his striking and at the same time paradoxical words, St. Paul simply expresses the thought that marriage is assigned to the spouses as an ethos. In the Pauline words, "It is better to marry than to be aflame with passion," the verb ardere signifies a disorder of the passions, deriving from the concupiscence of the flesh. However, marriage signifies the ethical order, which is consciously introduced in this context. It can be said that marriage is the meeting place of eros with ethos and of their mutual compenetration in the heart of man and of woman, as also in all their mutual relationships (TOB 165:3)
Hey there everyone, this is Monica, and you're listening to episode 5 of Precana with the Pope. In this episode, we comment on a recently released book that's causing quite a stir. We talk about marital debt, the role men and women play in the home, and we ask St. John Paul the Great how to achieve a great sex life. You get to hear about our feelings about social media chatter and Renz's ability to nerd out over theology. Follow along in the show notes for some amazing insight from Aquinas, Pope Pius XI, and JP2. We're so happy you're here. Let's jump in.
SPEAKER_00Alright, so we are here.
SPEAKER_02We're here.
SPEAKER_00So we're doing a special kind of episode today. This is our first of hopefully, I guess not many. Many. Hopefully we don't have to do this often, but I feel like we have to. But this is our first uh response to something out there. I guess we should do this more often.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but it's like our first unscheduled podcast recording kind of things are happening today, and we um we just kind of kept dialoguing about it back and forth while you were at work. Just really felt like called to say something about it.
SPEAKER_00Let's talk about it. Um So for those of you that don't know, um in the Catholic
The "Ask Your Husband" controversy
SPEAKER_00circles, there's a new book that's been released um by Stephanie Gordon called Ask Your Husband, which l honestly kudos to them for their marketing because they've done an amazing job marketing.
SPEAKER_01That is a that is a clickbait title. Right?
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, so the book's called Ask Your Husband, but just even you know the hype behind the book and then just the things in the book, just it has made a quite a splash in a lot of different circles. Um so there's been a lot of responses to the book now, now that it's out, and um I thought we should kind of throw our hat in and kind of give our two cents of how we see particular parts of the book. Yeah. Um one thing that I'm seeing that I want to kind of not do is there's a lot of responses to like the clickbait parts of the book. Like whether it be titles or chapter titles or you know, you heard somebody say something or a screenshot. Um, we went went ahead and purchased the book and read the part that we want to respond to. Yep. Because I think it's important to to give the author and whether whatever author their you know respect by actually reading the source itself and not just kind of picking and choosing certain things that they said that we don't like.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, not just people's commentary on it or out of context. So we have the text and we're tonight just gonna focus on one piece of it. So while we like feel like we have the context pretty much down, there's a lot of different topics in the book, and so we're just gonna focus on one tonight.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it's called Ask Your Husband. So, right off the bat, um, it sounds pretty controversial, and it's gives a particular perspective on what the husband-wife relationship should be like. It kind of says this is what the church wants or the church designed marriage to be like, um, with the husband playing a particular role and the wife playing another role. Um, I know that this book has been marketed as four wives, so for them to kind of understand what their role is as as a wife, and but it's controversial because the the things that are being said, I don't think really capture the the entirety of the marital relationship. And they're also said in a way that can be misinterpreted and used to create unhealthy marriages if if implemented incorrectly, and I don't feel like there's enough of a balance in in certain parts of the book.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So it definitely feels like um the topic that we're gonna talk now about tonight, the topic that we're gonna talk about is fairly countercultural to begin with. And like you said, I think some of it is said in a way that if not brought into if these like things are brought into a marriage that's already unhealthy, they will exacerbate that. And and again, kind of kind of in fairness to the people who are responding to to like what they've read and what they've heard. Um Stephanie Gordon's husband does have a persona for his branding, for his ministry, for his, I'm not really sure, his apostolate, whatever he calls it. Um, he does have a a persona that he displays. And it can come across as uncharitable at times or abrasive, abrasive, um, single-sided. And so I think that that also plays a role in the um in the sediment that's being turned as this come as this comes up too. So and and and so there's definitely a style to this book, to the writing, to the the way things are said. So we kind of want to just like pick this apart a little bit, to pick this topic apart a little bit. So we're gonna go to some of the direct sources that the author used. We're gonna use some of her words. We're gonna also, because we are pre-Kingdom with the Pope, gonna go to our man JP2, see what he has to say about this. And um, I'm really excited to have this conversation with you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I I liked one thing we said when we were praying before, um, that we want to use clarity and charity, right? We want to be charitable. So we want to be charitable all all parties. I do think that one thing that gets lost when we start discussing disagreements or just you know when we don't agree as as Catholics is um we forget that we are on the same team. Um and that I think it's important to to remember that we have more things in common than we have that are not common in common, uncommon, uncommon, disincommon. We have we have uh there we have more in common than than and I don't want to forget that. Yeah, right. We are all on the same team. However, with this these points do need to be clarified. Um, I do think both every side is just responding to the responses. We see that there's a need for marriages and families to be supported. Yeah. Um, so I think that this is our way of doing that by by hopefully providing clarity to to the disagreements and um in a charitable way, hopefully not speaking poorly of any sides. Yeah. Um so looking at
The marital debt
SPEAKER_00Stephanie Gordon's book, uh, it talks about so much, and we can't cover all of it in one or twenty podcast episodes. We might do this again if this is something that um is uh if that you guys enjoyed. Um but today we're gonna focus just on the part about sex because that is a forte of ours. Um but just the the no no like talking about it. Not oh yes, not the other part.
SPEAKER_01The discussion part.
SPEAKER_00The discussion part. Um but so we want we want to talk about the sex part. Um in particular, she's got a chapter or a section within a chapter um that talks about what we know as the marital debt. Um, and in Catholic circles, if you don't know what the marital debt is, um Stephanie defines it. So Stephanie Gordon, the author of the book, um Ask Your Husband, defines the marital debt as conjugal debt, sexual obligation one spouse owes to the other. So basically, the the idea in the teaching is that a spouse is indebted to have sex with the spouse whenever the spouse desires sex. So in this goes both ways. The way it's shown in the book is that it's if if the wife desires sex from the husband, the husband has to render the debt to the wife, um, and vice versa. And what Stephanie Gordon does is she uses um three different sources to kind of support the idea that and she again she's writing this book to to wives. So the idea she's writing is that wives need to start having more sex with their husbands when the husbands want. So what I want to do, and I hope this is okay, is I want to go through the three different sources. I don't necessarily want to go into what she says. I we might have to, um, but I instead of going into like how she interpreted the teaching and what how she interpreted the text, I want to just look at the main sources themselves and say, okay, what do these sources say? Yeah, and look at them in light of whether it be in the context within themselves, within the source, or in context with St. John Paul.
SPEAKER_01Great.
SPEAKER_00Um,
St. Thomas the Aquinas on marital debt
SPEAKER_00so the first um source that she uses when talking about the marital debt is Saint Thomas Aquinas, and she particularly pulls from the supplementary part of the Summa Theologiae. Um, and this is qu out of question 64, Article 9. So if you can read that. So the question that the question 64 is whether one spouse is bound to pay the debt to the other at a festal time. Um, and this is how St. Thomas answers it.
SPEAKER_01I answer that since the wife has the power of her husband's body, and vice versa, with regard to the act of procreation, the one is bound to pay the debt to the other at any season or hour, with due regard to the decorum required in such matters, for this must not be done at once openly.
SPEAKER_00Um, and then later on in that same article, he says that for it is ordained by God on account of the weakness of the flesh, that the debt must be always paid to the one who asks, lest he be afforded an occasion of sin. So that's that is the articles, that is the text that she uses from St. Thomas Aquinas to say that, see, this is what the church teaches that a wife must render the debt whenever the husband wants. I honestly would want to know from your perspective how you like what do you think of the first part? So like when he asks, like, is a is a spouse bound, he does answer that that a spouse is bound, that both spouses are bound. How do you feel just about knowing that? Number one.
SPEAKER_01So I have before I get to bound, I hate the word debt in this situation.
SPEAKER_00Like in the case. I do cash is king.
SPEAKER_01Yes, learning about debt and debt is bad, and like even just like the borrower, slave to the lender, like like just like just to to have this like debt seems so contractual. And when we're talking about marriage, it's supposed to supposed to be a covenant. So if we are in debt to the other, it's because I owe something and therefore I have to like repay it to make it good. And I feel like that really that word, and I don't know if this is a translation issue or if a misunderstanding or whatever, contextual issue, but like the word debt to me, like it eliminates the possibility of this of sex being a free gift, a gift of myself to my beloved. And so that just like bothers me. Um, and then bound to pay the debt, like really eliminates like the possibility of like forgiveness of this debt and mercy of it. Like, like the the phraseology is is I it doesn't sit well with me, but then I try to like okay, look at this in my marriage and look at it in our relationship. And like there is something though to the responsibility of intimacy in a relationship, like the responsibility to like keep intimacy and sex a part of our relationship because that is the thing that sets our relationship apart from others. Like it is the thing that we share with one another, and it is the thing that helps us to renew our sacrament. And so there is some sort of obligation to the other to participate in something that is that is at its core holy and good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think you know what's interesting is that when um I watched um one of their, I think it was a live stream, like when they were like building up the launch of the book. Um, and one of the things they talked about, and they being Stephanie and and and Tim Gordon, were talking about how there's just a lot of couples who aren't having sex anymore. Um and I think that's that we can all step back from this this little um disagreement and say, like, I think that's true. Um I know that a lot of couples when they're having a lot of issues, like that's one of the first things that goes out the door. Right. Right. Um, so even we can see like I I agree with you. Like a lot of if you read through the suma, a lot of the language just doesn't hit home unless you understand what you're reading and in and and kind of understand what he's getting at and where like where this, you know, it's just it's it's hard to just accept on face value because like like words like debt are you know it's it's head scratching, but when he writes this and he's he's like you said, making it if we could just look at it and agree that like well sex is this is important for a fan for a marriage. Yeah, like it's sex should be happening between spouses. Yeah, and I we can all agree that a healthy marriage sh the those couple the couple should be having sex. Yes, right. So like we could at least agree there. Um and I think that that's an important thing to start off on, like, okay, we agree there. Um because then if you if like I said, if you're reading question 64, um in article five, so this is before um yeah, sorry, in article four, before he gets to this part that Stephanie Gordon quoted, um St. Thomas Aquinas does say that there's times when the spouse doesn't have to render the debt. And sorry, I will use the language that Aquinas uses because we're reading Aquinas. Um but so he he writes an article for that she being the the um wife would not be bound to pay the debt if she had some personal ailment so as to make it dangerous for herself. Um and vice versa, we would assume that he would he would say the same vice versa, that like if if there is something that is there is a reason to not render the debt or to not engage in sexual intimacy. We can talk about later like what constitutes, but I'm I'm more just pointing that out to say that he didn't just say like you have to no matter what all the time. Like there is a context to it. Um and then also in article five, we don't have to read through that, but he does go through how a husband and wife are equal in the marital act. So they he talks about how husband and wife are both equal in sex, that that it's not like one is is superior to the other, but he does say that they are equal. There is not one that's greater than the other, there's not one that's master over the other. Um, they are equal in that. And I think that's important to to realize that like he builds the argument up to this point of of marital debt by first establishing that like this doesn't have to happen no matter what all the time, and also that husband and wife are equal in this act. This is not something that one gets to demand from the other as as as in equals, like we are we are equals that that you have like my body is yours, your body is mine. Like it's both ways, not just one or the other. And I think sometimes the quote that Stephanie uses can be taken out of context and make it seem like, well, the husband could demand whenever he wants, and like that's not what Aquinas was saying, like he wasn't building up to that argument, so we shouldn't use this quote to make that argument.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So to summarize, article four in question 64 gives gives a clarification that if something such as illness is is in the relationship in one of those spouses, the the the obligation is not bound. Then next in article five, the equality and the complementarity of spouses is defined and explained, and that's what leads to particularly in sex. Sorry, yes, particularly in sex, all of this in context of sex, and then article nine goes into the the reciprocity of the marital debt, the that it's reciprocal. Um, and again, like I think I think ask your husband because it is written two wives is going to say like the wives role, and because it is singling out one side, again, in in a marriage that is not healthy, that is not virtuous, that could be misuse. And I don't know, like I'm I'm not gonna try to interpret the intent of the author in that, but um, I I do see I do see that there could be a danger to that without understanding like this full picture and without um yeah, without putting it into like working towards a healthy marriage from both sides.
SPEAKER_00Like I um what what I think one thing I hope that comes from our conversation and looking into the sources she uses is that we can see how the church's understanding of the sexual act has developed over time. I don't want to say I don't know if evolved is the right word. I don't it also hasn't changed. Like it's not like they're teaching something different, but that it's it we we know more because of the different things that are written. For example, this is one example I learned in school. Um, so I I'm sorry, I'm also in grad school. I have two classes left, and I got my master's in theology. So I'm excited about that. So this is one of the things I learned in one of my classes was that um there's one of the theories that's put out there about the gospels is that the gospel of Mark is very, very basic with our theology. Like the Catholic theology in Mark is very basic. And if you look at Matthew and Luke, like they have different like parts of Mark in it, but they're a lot more expanded, like they're a lot more elaborated on. Um and it just shows how like that it in one of the theories is that like as theology kind of became as we kind of understood the theology a little better in that time, like Matthew had more in it, had more meat because built it building on Mark, but had more meat in it because the theology kind of had developed a little bit. In the same manner, the things that we know from Aquinas' time was built, he was a foundation and it was built upon by the following people that we're gonna be reading. And I think sometimes people that want to bring marriage back to its core can only look at things like Aquinas and say, like, oh, look, this is it. And I think that's dangerous because we are kind of leaving behind all of the other saints that have come after and that have written about these things and have helped bring um the teachings to us in a way that we can understand and digest a little bit better.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I feel like it's not an evolution, like you're saying. I know you weren't saying it was an evolution, but like it's a deeper understanding, it's a deeper, more full, holistic picture because we first get the teaching and then we have the experience. So now we can draw on experience of marriage and all of the ways that the devil attacks marriage and family life, and then speak to that. So, like, I like okay, so Mark wrote that I'm hypothesizing, but Mark wrote writes his gospel, and then Matthew and and Luke see how that's lived by the first Christians, and like, all right, here are here are things that need to be more deeply explained, um, or deeply um like like brought into context, or or here's a different audience, or here's who we're speaking to, and this is how that message will be understood for them so that they can live it well. So, so yeah, now we have we have Aquinas who you know is going off of, I'm sure, like Corinthians and and a lot of St. Paul's writings, which went off of you know, going back and back and back further.
SPEAKER_00Well, he's also using Augustine and Aristotle for his writing. So, yes, like he's he had people he was building on. Right. And like there's other people now that are building on him.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00And I think and so that leads to the second, the second quote that Stephanie Gordon
Casti Connubii by Pope Pius XI on marital debt
SPEAKER_00uses in talking about the marital debt, um, in in kind of in supporting that like a you know, a wife needs to render the debt, is um a quote from Pope Pius the 11th from his encyclical Castic Nubi. So she picks one quote from paragraph 19.
SPEAKER_01And the quote she uses is the second blessing of matrimony, which we said was mentioned by Augustine, is the blessing of conjugal honor, which consists in the mutual fidelity of the spouses in fulfilling the marriage contract, so that what belongs to one of the parties by reason of this contract, sanctioned by divine law, may not be denied to him or permitted to any third person, nor may there be conceded to one of the parties anything which being contrary to the rights of the law of God and entirely opposed to matrimonial faith can never be conceded.
SPEAKER_00So again, that's from paragraph 19. Um, and and that's used to support the idea that look, you're married, and this is just part of your obligation of marriage. You have to have sex with your spouse when your spouse wants to have sex. However, in the same document, if you go to paragraph 23, Popeius drops a bomb that I read, and now she's like, This is beautiful. And then I see in in my mind, you see the development, because like you you could read that paragraph and it sounds very similar to Aquinas. But then you then you read the rest, you you keep going down and you you see him kind of unpack what he just said, and you see, like, oh, this is what spouses are being called to. So if this is from and Monica's gonna read from paragraph twenty-three, the same document, Cassie Kanubi.
SPEAKER_01For matrimonial faith demands that husband and wife be joined in an especially holy and pure love, not as adulterers love each other, but as Christ loved the church. This precept the apostle laid down when he said, Husbands love your wives as Christ also loved the church. That church which of a truth he embraced with a boundless love, not for the sake of his own advantage, but seeking only the good of his spouse. The love then of which we are speaking is not that based on the passing lust of the moment, nor does it consist in pleasing words only, but in the deep attachment of the heart which is expressed in action, since love is proved by deeds. This outward expression of love in the home demands not only mutual help, but must go further, must have as its primary purpose that man and wife help each other day and day. By day informing and perfecting themselves in the interior life, so that through their partnership in life they may advance ever more and more in virtue, and above all that they may grow in true love toward God and their neighbor, on which indeed deepened the whole law and the prophets. Wow, we need to have that written in the show notes so people can like write. Oh my goodness, that's amazing.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so right, but like that's that's the context of this marital debt. Like that, if you're if your marriage is not that, there shouldn't be a talk of debt. Yeah. The way I see it is like this is the safety net that like this relationship should be this, so that we could have open conversations about sex and like you know, and just talking about the the I don't want to use the word debt, but like just how intimate we are, how often we're intimate. Like it's only okay to in my mind, it's only okay to even have those conversations if our relationship is what Pope Pius just described.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I think that that's so key because like there are times where like that's not where my brain is. Like I'm not thinking about having sex tonight, but I am thinking of loving and serving you and our family and our children, and not out of a sense of obligation, but out of a sense of like desire. That is what that is what my heart wants to do. And and in that, in that love, because we are spouses, like there is that opportunity to express indeed through sex, that love that I that like I'm trying to show in the rest of my day too. And so I think like something that's really important is that like to remember that like to have sex with one another doesn't mean that both are like aroused first. And like that's that's the moment, like I'm aroused, so therefore you need to have sex. Like it it's like in this mutual love of the other that that we desire that intimacy with one another. And like by expressing that to your spouse, then they would want to like they would want to reciprocate.
SPEAKER_00Right. And I think so. Say like there's a relationship or a couple that's listening or or reading or reading Stephanie Gordon's book, and either the wife or the husband don't like they don't even they hear what you're saying, they're just like, I'm not even close to there yet. I don't want to have sex with my spouse because of all of these reasons. Like, in and not I'm not talking about situations of abuse, yeah, um, because that's that is a whole different topic, and that's not being discussed here, but more of just like I'm unhappy with my spouse, I don't want to have sex. I don't think what the church is saying is, well, you have to anyway, because you're you you you have to render the debt because XYZ instead, first the question of sex is like say one spouse wants to have sex with the other and things are not okay in the relationship, like looking at what he said, like the love that the spouses should have are more than just a passing, um passing lust of the moment. So, number one, yeah, do you just want to have sex just because you you you need a release because you just want to, you know, you you have all these feelings you just want to get rid of, like that's not what this should be. And if that's why you're asking for the debt to be rendered, that's not okay. Yeah, right, because number one It's a misuse of it. It's a misuse of it. It this is supposed to be for love of the other, right? Not a passing moment of lust, but in the deep attachment of the heart, which is expressed in action, since love is proved by deeds. So for there, the way I read it as a husband is am I doing my job as a husband every day, day in and day out, every moment that I can, or am I not fulfilling your needs as a husband, and then later being like, Well, you need to render the debt because then that is not okay to be doing.
SPEAKER_01Are we expressing our love and deeds outside of sex? Like, are we expressing that love in all of our deeds? Sex being one of them.
SPEAKER_00Right. And that means like understanding and and seeking to understand you. So like I know that there's there have been there are husbands, and I I'm one of them that have have heard your you express your needs, and like I'm not, I don't understand why you need that. I remember earlier in our marriage, like, you know, if the house was messy, like we couldn't be intimate. And I was like, I don't understand that, but like understanding that like you have all these things that you want done throughout the day, and and it's just it's an added weight. So, like, my expressing my love for you isn't it's and it's not like a I'm gonna clean the house so that we can be intimate, but it's more of I'm doing this because you need this done. This is how I'm meeting your needs, and I and I love you. So that should naturally flow into us being intimate, not like me doing this as a transactional thing, and that's where he says this outward expression of love in the home demands not only mutual help, but must go further. So, first the mutual help is the husband who who, again, in this book, you know, he she's writing for the wives that need to render the debt. Like, is the husband providing that mutual help in the home or just or outside of the home or anywhere to his spouse? If he's not, I would say that we need to look back at this and like, all right, you need to start helping.
SPEAKER_01I think that line is really important. And again, we're gonna kind of just focus on the sex part, but this this concept of the the wife's role and the husband's role in the marriage, in the home, in society, like that line though, really speaks to like the expression of love in the home demands not only mutual help. So, like it demands mutual help plus some more. So, like this idea that like that the wife the wife's job is in the home, the husband's is outside the home, and then he gets to come home and she's just available because she's been home, like that's taken out of context again because this is our home and this is the family that we are building together. This is this is our life, this is our it is mutual, it is it is reciprocal, and and it has to be built on love for one another and love for this new thing that we've created, this new family, this new marriage. If if we're not both in it a hundred percent, then this new thing, this this to become family is is going to suffer because because then we are we're we're we're counting, like we're we're we're off balance, we're we're taking tabs and and we're falling short. And then therefore our sex life is going to fall short. Our sex life is gonna have issues if we're not both in this whole life thing together.
SPEAKER_00Right. And I think right now you're just you're just talking about like the practical end of day-to-day life, living together. But then he says must go further. And then like it it must have its primary purpose. Yeah. So the primary purpose that man and wife help each other day by day informing and perfecting themselves in the interior life.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I would argue that I would argue that he's saying that if you are not perfecting each other in interior life, you shouldn't be have trying to have sex. Yeah, this is what you need to be doing.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00And I don't and like that needs to be said first because I would argue that we need to tell make sure that the husbands know this and the wives know this before we talk about marital debt.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_00Like if you're not perfecting these things, if you're not perfecting one each other in interior life and then mutually helping build the home together and build the life together, you can't be talking about this other stuff because then everything is being disordered. It's like I'm I'm giving you plan, I'm giving you like the end goal without telling you how to get there.
SPEAKER_02Yes, right.
SPEAKER_00So then you have couples like, oh, well, look, you have to have sex with me without working on all the other stuff that that Pope Pius here is saying needs to be done.
SPEAKER_01Yes. It has to, it has to be done first. It has to be done first. Our goal is heaven. How is it possible that we're gonna gain heaven if we're not helping each other in our spiritual life? If we are not helping each other um pray, find a relationship with Jesus, grow in virtue, make sure we're frequenting the sacraments. Like if we're not, if we're not making that a priority in our family, in our marriage, then we've got it all upside down, we've got it all backwards, inside out. And like if sex really is the thing that you're hyper-focused on, you are missing the entire point. Like you're missing the entire point of sex, period, then you're missing the entire point of marriage, because then we'd be lying to ourselves and lying to each other if going back to paragraph 19, when we say um the blessing of the conjugal honor, which consists in the mutual fidelity of spouses, is fulfilling that marriage contract. Like that's a lie. If we are not acting in fidelity, if we're not acting in honor of our marriage, then like we're like sex is not actually what it's supposed to be. So so like we have to stop talking about that as like the primary end.
SPEAKER_00Right. Like sex is where that's consummated, where all of that is brought together. It's like affirmed.
SPEAKER_01It's affirmed in that action and it is spoken through our bodies.
SPEAKER_00Right. It's the same thing as like if we if I'm going to receive the Eucharist before going to confession. Like, so if I'm going to receive, if I'm going to receive Jesus and I'm in the state of mortal sin, I haven't been to confession, and I haven't frequented this frequency the sacrament in in months, I'm receiving something that I'm not prepared to be receiving. Yeah. And like no one's gonna stop me.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00Right, no one knows. I'm I can go receive anyway, but it's doing that, and St. Paul writes in Corinthians that's actually doing more damage to my soul. Yes, than than not receiving, right? Than acknowledging and then repenting and then and then and then adjusting my going to confession and and receiving the grace and then going to receive worthily.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Because I in that moment when I receive, I'm unworthy. And then I would say in the same way, husbands and wives can do the same thing in their sacrament by engaging in sex unworthily. Like there's there's things that we need to repent of, there's things that we need to heal from, we need to we need to go to confession for, we need to communicate with each other. And if that spiritual bond isn't there, and then we're still like, well, you know, you gotta you gotta render the debt, yeah, you're you're missing the whole thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're just showing up on Sunday, like, here I am, you told me to come. Like that's right.
SPEAKER_00It's like, oh, this is just bread. Like, no, no, no. This is the body, blood, soul, and div divinity of Jesus. Do you understand what you're receiving? Right. The same thing could be said in the spouse. Do you understand what you're receiving?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00And if you don't, you need to figure that out first. Yes. Right. And that means maybe that might mean marriage counseling, that might mean a lot of things, but needing to go to that first and then go into the sacrament. And I think that's that's what's being said here. And again, the reason we bring up this paragraph 23, because it's in the same exact document that is being used to say that the the marital debt needs to be rendered every single time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Sure. Yes, if all these things are all of these other things are in place, I probably wouldn't object.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Right? Unless someone's got one of the the illnesses that's out there. Yeah. Also really sick. But like, no, but like, but I don't want to say I don't want to get I don't want to be shadow banned. But like if we but like, yeah, if all of this is in place, I don't think any of us would object. Right. But that's the point. Like, not all of this is in place. Right. And that's what we need to get to. So the the last um
The marital act as a remedy to concupiscence
SPEAKER_00the last I don't want to say document, but like the last thing that she uses to to support the the marital debt argument that the wife must render the debt when the husband asks for it is scripture. She uses sacred scripture, um, and she reads from um St. Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, chapter seven, verses two through five.
SPEAKER_01But because of the temptation to immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not rule over his own body, but the wife does. Do not refuse one another, except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer, but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control.
SPEAKER_00All right, so it's a little it sounds a little dicey. Because it what it what I think it for a lot of people, this comes off as a as a it's a verse or it's verses that are saying, because we all struggle with concupiscence, and for or and if those of you that may not know, concupiscence is the result of original sin. We all have original sin, we all have disordered desires, and concupiscence is what we call like that fallen state of desires within us that that we can't control, that we struggle with. So for some people it's lust. Um, there's a lot of different desires that we have that we struggle with. And so what some may say that St. Paul's saying here is that marital sex is a way of of remedying that concupiscence because, well, if you if you struggle with the desire to have sex all the time, well, now here's your outlet. You can have it at it when you're married. And so that's so this verse and all these other verses are used as like, well, if the husband wants to have sex and you don't want him to go sin and you don't want him to go look at porn, and you don't want him to go be to commit adultery, you need to have sex with him to keep him around. I don't think that's the correct interpretation of the verses. And what I found to kind of rebut that is out of the theology of the body. So this is from so Monica's gonna read what St. John Paul had to say about the same exact verses. This is in his 165th audience. He um this is the second paragraph, he talks specifically about these verses and what Saint Paul is actually saying.
SPEAKER_01Saint John Paul the Great in Theology Body um says, These statements of Saint Paul have given rise to the opinion that marriage constitutes a specific remedy for concupiscence. However, as we have already observed, Saint Paul teaches explicitly that marriage has a corresponding special gift, and that in the mystery of redemption of marriage is given to a man and a woman as a grace. In his striking and at the same time paradoxical words, Saint Paul simply expresses the thought that marriage is assigned to the spouses as an ethos. In the Pauline words, it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion. The verb adare signifies a disorder of the passions deriving from the concupiscence of the flesh. However, marriage signifies the ethical order, which is consciously introduced in this context. It can be said that marriage is the meeting place of Eros with ethos and of their mutual compenetration in the heart of man and of woman, as also in their mutual relationships.
SPEAKER_00To unpack that a little bit, he he's basically saying that the remedy for concupiscence isn't the marital act alone, right? Because again, if we if we understand what we were just building on with with Pope Pius, that that the marital act is is similar to the the receive the reception of the Eucharist, right? We have to prepare ourselves for this, and then we receive this grace. The idea is that if we are preparing ourselves to receive each other, and then we're receiving each other and and receiving that grace that's given to us by the sacrament, we are transformed and are redeemed through the act so that concupiscence is doesn't rule us anymore. So it's not that like I'm receiving a release by engaging in sex. It's that sex in marriage, if it is rightly ordered, the way that Pope Pius was expressing, will transform me to no longer be ruled by concupiscence. Right. Because I'm being redeemed.
SPEAKER_01Right. So it is the grace of the sacrament, it is the grace of the sacrament that is the remedy. And what what act brings about that grace of the sacrament is the act of sex. And so really it's again putting it in the right order. It's putting it where the the foundation is the marriage and the act is sex. And we have to make sure that that is that is put in its place so that we are sanctifying, we are gifting that grace to to each other for the for the good, for the sanctification of our spouse.
SPEAKER_00Right. And that's why he says that marriage signifies the ethical order, right? Like in marriage, everything that is disordered in us by concupiscence in marriage, it becomes rightly ordered. And that's where Eros and ethos meet. And I think that's a very beautiful saying. I don't know if that's just like, oh, that's great. You're a nerd. I'm a nerd. But like that's that's where, because like that's where our passions are are then guided in the right direction. Like this is where they should be going, and this is how they become transformative. Right. Right?
SPEAKER_01And they can be used well.
SPEAKER_00Right. And and it's not like, oh, here, and I think the way uh, and I hate it because I feel like it's like look, it's not like you take my passions like here, here, lust after your wife. This is where you should be lusting. Like, no, no, no, no. Here, be transformed by the sacrament so that that that that lust that's within you is transformed into a deeper love than you could ever imagine. And like that's where it should be taken, and that's where it should be going, and that's when sex is being done correctly. Because now it is not just the physical act, it is everything, and that's what that's what Saint Paul is writing about. But again, St. Paul's writing that millennia before Saint John Paul, and that's where the the development of this this understanding, this theology comes out. And I think that Saint Jean Paul, with the theology of the body, he takes everything we just talked about, Aquinas, Popius, Saint Paul, and he brings it together to the theology of the body. Like this is it in this context. I don't think anybody would be like, Oh, I can't, I don't want to have sex with my spouse. Imagine all these things are in place that's what makes this beautiful. Right. That's what makes the idea of rendering the debt not terrible in a Catholic context, because this should be the context.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00And if it's not, that's what gotta get fixed.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00It's not like, well then go have sex anyway. Like, no, no, that's not gonna fix it.
SPEAKER_01And that's not the solution, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All of this has to be in place first.
SPEAKER_00So we threw a lot, we threw a lot out there. My brain is spinning a little bit. Okay. Well, so like so so what's great is that we can uh give practical advice at the end of this. Yep. Right. So and I
St. John Paul's advice for a couple's sex life
SPEAKER_00think St. John Paul has beautiful practical advice. So I think that now taken what we've read from the last three sources, I think that if we have couples who want to understand, all right, I want a better sex life with my spouse, um, or I want a great sex life when I am married. Um, I think Saint John Paul has some great advice from love and responsibility that I think he would give to all spouses, similar to that he would with um all the other advice we've been reading from him.
SPEAKER_01Our man, St. John Paul the Great, says, What is needed in the long run is sexual education and one that is constant at that. The most important point of this education is to shape the following conviction. The other person is more important than I. This conviction will not appear all of a sudden and out of nothing, purely on the basis of bodily intercourse alone. It can be only and exclusively a result of integral education in love. Sexual intercourse alone does not teach love, but love, if it is a true virtue, will also turn out to be such inconjugal sexual intercourse.
SPEAKER_00So if if you want to have a better sex life or a great sex life when you're married, if you're engaged or dating, the reminder that the other person is more important than I. And then taking that that concept, right? Because that is that is love, willing the good of the other, the other person is more important than I, and then it's expanding it in every facet of your relationship. Is the other person more important than you in everything?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because if it's not, if they're not, that's where you gotta work.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then I would argue that the best place that you learn how to love that way is at Mass and Adoration and contemplation of the crucifix, especially going into this Lenten season, like understanding how loved we are by Christ is the only way that we can r realize how much we have to love our spouse.
SPEAKER_01Right. And Pope Pius says that like at its base, at the foundation, marriage is to improve, to to better, to enhance our spiritual and and interior life. So, first, by by me putting you before myself, I I am demonstrating Christ's love for you. I am an image of that in your day-to-day life. And and together we should be seeking out the sacraments. We should be going to mass together to remind ourselves how to love better, and then also to point to our spouse, like, I am not perfect. This is this is who, this is who loves you best. So we're learning how to love best from Christ, but we're also like reminding our spouse that the perfect lover is Christ. That has to come first. Then comes the sacrificial love of the day-to-day. How are my deeds putting the other first? How am I sacrificing what I would rather be doing for the good of my spouse, for my lover, for the person who I love most in life? And doing it willingly, doing it with charity, from there, your sex life will just will naturally like it's not about what moves you make or what what the biology is. Like that, that will come, but to have like a good, healthy, active sex life with your spouse stems from the foundation being set. And that's what you that's what precana with the Pope is about, right? It's about learning, like preparing for marriage well, like preparing to love my spouse well. And I know that a lot of our listeners are married, and like that's our goal was that too, because we know that a lot of marriages suffer in this area, and we know that because we know that. So you you have the opportunity to start any day. It's like you like it doesn't matter what year into marriage you are, return to the sacraments. Again, go like that's the practical advice, and you're like, what the heck? I thought I was gonna get sex advice, and you're telling me to go to church.
SPEAKER_00Like, yes, that's the inner that's exactly what I'm telling you to do. Education in love. Yes, it can only be done by God.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and that gift of grace then comes into your marriage through your act of sex. But like, you need to know what what a gift grace is before you can even like receive it in your marriage. You need to like you need to, yeah. So sorry for the disappointment if that's what you were looking for when you got to this episode, but like go, go seek out Christ together, seek out Christ for your for your beloved. Um learn how to love your your your lover well and um and and yeah, like take take the time this lent to like really enter into that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and um so I hope that you guys are able to follow along in the show notes and read the quotes as we're reading them. Um I do think that especially uh Pope Pius is one isn't one that we should just sit with and pray with and and kind of ask ask God, like where where in our lives are we falling short of these things? Because ultimately we want to bring our spouse to heaven. So, like, are we doing the things we can be? If not, show me where I could do better, show me where I could grow more. Um, and then like Monica said, like, we have to be in that school of love, and it's it's found, it's found in the Eucharist, so we have to go. Um, so this is this was our way of answering just this small little piece in this this much bigger book, in this much bigger conversation about husband husbands and wives and the marital relationship. But in terms of the marital debt, I really hope we I think we did a a good enough job. I I hope we did a good enough job in in answering how this idea of marital debt should be lived out, not according to us, but according to to the the Catholic Church and what we have come to know of the marital relationship and um the sexual relationship.
SPEAKER_01And guys, know that we're praying for you, know that we're rooting for you, know that we're cheering you on.
SPEAKER_00We um I'm praying for the Gordons too, and and anyone who's working to make marriages better.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00We're all on the same team. Yes. We need to remember. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Amen. Thank you so much for listening. If you like this conversation, we'd really appreciate it if you'd take the time to rate, share, and subscribe. We'd also love to connect with you on Instagram at ToBecomeFamily. Let us know what you would ask if you could have pre Cana with the Pope. See you at the next episode.