Two Become Family Podcast: Conversations and Encouragement For Your Catholic Family
Welcome to the podcast where we echo the words of St. John Paul II and encourage families to "Believe in what you are!"
We are Renzo and Monica Ortega, we've been married 13 years, we have 5 kids, and our apostolate, Two Become Family, encourages Catholics who love the Church, love each other, and still feel like marriage and family life is harder than it's supposed to be.
Through our very candid, and sometimes uncomfortably vulnerable, conversations about sex, NFP, conflict, family life, we hope to spark conversations between you and your spouse leaving you with a little more joy and a lot more hope that you have what it takes to be a family.
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Two Become Family Podcast: Conversations and Encouragement For Your Catholic Family
When Should We Start Having Kids? Fertility Awareness, NFP, and Why Children Are Gifts
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In today's episode we talk to St. John Paul about having kids and we ask when the bets time to have kids is. We are reminded about the gift that kids are, we talk about the difference that Fertility Awareness, Fertility Awareness Based Methods, and Natural Family Planning have made in our decision to have our 5 children, and Monica shares a little bit about how she came to learn FA/NFP.
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LINKS
Here are some of the things we mentioned in today's episode:
Address of St. John Paul to teachers of NFP
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Hey there everyone, this is Monica, and welcome to episode 10 of Precana with the Pope. In today's episode, we talk about women's health, what it means to have shared fertility, and we ask St. John Paul the Great when he thinks it's the right time to have children. You also get to hear about the inappropriate questions we get asked as we walk through Target. We're so happy you're here with us. Let's jump in.
SPEAKER_01So you know it was fun.
SPEAKER_03What?
SPEAKER_01Going to Target. Oh, so that that time, I forgot what you were doing. You went to Target by yourself with all the children. And I showed up right in time to catch you in the checkout line. Yes. And people were staring.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because you didn't have masks on. No, that's not what they were saying. They were staring because there were five of me walking around with you.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_01Five little ones that looked like me.
SPEAKER_04She kidnapped five little brown babies.
SPEAKER_01No, the au pair is taking them out. Au pair is taking them out targeting. Um, but we it's it's so truthfully, it's it's hard not to be a little self-conscious sometimes of like how big of a train we are when we go anywhere. Like it's and not that like I'm embarrassed of it, but I'm just like, I'm just aware that we take up a lot of space. Yes. The the decibels in the room increase significantly.
SPEAKER_04Oh my, look at them. Are they all yours? Yes.
SPEAKER_01No, I stole one.
SPEAKER_05Pick which one?
unknownWhich one?
SPEAKER_01They're like Pokemon. I'm trying to catch all of them. Um, but it's just it's just funny. Like we have having five kids is yeah, that's it's just a lot of children.
SPEAKER_04A lot of mouths to feed, a lot of mouths that talk.
SPEAKER_01A lot of mouths that talk.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_01Good thing you we put all their birthdays together though. So you just celebrate in one awesome.
SPEAKER_04I know we did just celebrate all the boys in a month.
SPEAKER_01That's it.
SPEAKER_04All the boys in the Ortega house. January 20th through February 24th.
SPEAKER_01It's it's so crazy to be sitting now, like sitting here now and being like, we have five. Like that's just to me, it's just wow, like we built, we built with my bare hands. No, we um no, like, but just that we our family has grown to this point. Um, it's just amazing. And I remember like going with our question, I specifically remember just considering like when should we have our first child. Um and just like with I think any big decision, like when should we buy our first house, when should we, what other decisions are there?
SPEAKER_03Anything I mean when to get married.
SPEAKER_01When should we get married?
SPEAKER_03What jobs to get?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's I don't I wish we could give like a specific, like you have to be here financially, here emotionally. Like, I don't think there's ever a right time to have your first.
SPEAKER_04I remember my uncle's advice to you when we were dating and we went to go visit him. You were listening? No, you told me about it. Oh, okay. So why don't you tell me my uncle's advice?
SPEAKER_01No, he just said there was never a right time to I don't remember get married. I wasn't listening. Sorry. There was just it was just there's never like gonna be a perfect time. I'm pretty sure he got that. Pretty sure he got that from a Hallmark card.
SPEAKER_04But but his point was, yeah, his point was like there's just there you can always come up with a reason not to. Like, or to delay it or to put it off. Um so yeah, when to start having kids. I mean, there are certain reasons to definitely not, but there's a lot more reasons to go for it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's it's such a like it's a conversation we still have now, and I know that might sound crazy to everybody. The top questions that we get with having five children is well, at least the questions I've gotten is do you have a TV? And are you done? People love asking, Are you done?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like, listen, I barely know you. Why are you asking me these? Like, that's so personal. Yeah, I'm like a pregnant person that they're coming to touch my belly, they're touching my emotional belly by asking me, Am I done?
SPEAKER_05My ever growing emotional belly. Yes, stop touching my belly.
SPEAKER_01It's almost summer. No, but they um they people just have no no qualms about asking whether or not we're done with kids. And I don't I don't really go into it with them because I don't think they'd understand.
SPEAKER_04But I think they really want to know.
SPEAKER_01No, I I think they do. I think either way that they'd be like, uh they still think I'm crazy because there's already five. So I'd be like, yeah, no, we want six. They're like, Really? Six? Trying for another girl. Shh, don't ask me things. But I um I couldn't explain to them like, well, every like this is a discernment process that we're doing together to see what God's will is. Um, they wouldn't understand that.
SPEAKER_04No, that's true.
SPEAKER_01So I kind of just like I don't know. I just say I don't know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I say yeah, that's usually the answer I give. I also sometimes make jokes about you being a basketball coach and wanting a starting five lineup. Like in fairness, it we had always wanted a big family. Like that was just it wasn't by accident that we have five. Um we we had like when we were dating, you were like, I want 10 kids so we can play five on five in the driveway. And I was like, you need a second wife to be able to do that. Um, but no, we had always like we'd always just wanted a big family. Um so so for us, you know, praise be to God, that's the way our family worked out. Um that's not how all families are supposed to look. No, all families are supposed to look the way that they're supposed to look. Right.
SPEAKER_01Ours ours is slightly brown, yep. With a lot of brown hair.
SPEAKER_04And and a lot of noise, and yeah, five of them.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, I think that's it's hard because I think there is a pressure, especially if you're trying to if you're trying to live out your faith, there's a pressure of like, oh, be fertile multiply. That means have a lot of kids at once. And um, I would never say that any family needs to have the same amount that we do. Yeah. Like this is this is the number that's right for our family. Right. Um, and then it's our you know, it's within we're we're discerning and we're figuring out what God's will is for our family. Um, but I think that any family right now that's that's hopefully listening, like and just considering whether it's considering your first or should we add another uh are we in the right place to add another child to our life? Is that what God's calling us to do? I think it's this topic is just so important because um I don't think we are the only ones that ask that question. Right. Because even with five, even with our fifth one being one, when you see a little squirmy baby, or when I see a little squirmy baby, I look at you and I give you the eyes. Yes, you do stay on that side of the couch, sir.
SPEAKER_05Yep. But the babies are cute. We're on a hard pause right now.
SPEAKER_01Oh man, no, but the babies are so cute, they're so sweet and they smell so good. Yeah, but so the reason we're asking Saint Jean-Paul this is not actually to go to well, and I know he would have advice on on siblings and adding to your family and and the the gifts that children are. Um, but before even talking about that, the question of how you plan your family would would go. Um, so the quote that we're actually going to read from is from a talk that he gave to it's sorry, from a speech that he gave to healthcare workers, uh specifically doctors that work in women's health.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and St. John Paul the Great said, on this occasion, I am pleased to renew my sentiments of appreciation and esteem for the work you have done, which is better and better understood by the ecclesial community and by medical and scientific circles. The scientific validity of the methods and their educational effectiveness makes them increasingly appreciated for the human values that they presuppose and strengthen. When they are taught and presented in a suitable anthropological and ethical context, according to the wise directive expressed in Paul VI's encyclical Humanae Vitae, and so many times explained in subsequent documents of the Magisterium.
SPEAKER_01So I love St. John Paul's writings, but sometimes he is dry.
SPEAKER_04What is what is he saying?
SPEAKER_01But what he's talking about there is he loves the run-ons. Maybe it's the translations, the translators love the run-ons. Um, but so what he's talking about here is about he's talking about the the new science, the new methods that are coming out that were coming out. This is in 1997. Um, in better understanding women's health and women's fertility, um, I think for a long time anything women's health related it was considered just the pill. It was big in women's health. And then um there's actually a big a big argument within the church, and the birth control pill was actually, in contraception in general, was the first time that Catholics actually disagreed explicitly with what the church taught, um, which is where actually we got the phrase cafeteria Catholics. It originated from that because that's when people started deciding, well, like I'm Catholic, but I don't believe what they teach what they teach about this specific thing anymore. Um, and here he's talking about like that there's new methods coming out of family planning that maybe weren't as open, like people weren't as aware of, you know, 30 years ago, but there's there's more scientific learning, and um he's thanking the people that are coming out with those things. And I know that NFP and fertility awareness have made a big difference in our lives um way before we even got married.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So one of the things I really appreciate about this conversation that St. John Paul had with these medical professionals was like just encouraging them to continue to learn and understand um fertility awareness and how it actually works and how effective it is. Because I know for me as a teenager, you know, I mean, you had poor health class in fifth grade explaining, you know, like, hey, if it hasn't started yet, you know, if you're gonna start bleeding once a month and it's fine, you're fine, everything's fine. Um, and then you become a teenager and you're like, what is going on with my body? Um, and so like I remember having like some issues and go and my mom bringing me to the doctors as a teenager, and like just like everybody else who goes as a young female or a young adult, um is okay, what what method of birth control do you want to be put on? Because that'll that'll fix everything. Um, so at a young age, I was put on the pill because I didn't know any better, my mom didn't know any better, and we went to a medical professional, assuming they knew better. Um, so yeah, so for several years I was on the pill for what was supposed medical reasons, and um, and I'm so appreciative of like learning about fertility awareness so that I could actually start understanding my body and understanding what was happening all the time.
SPEAKER_01And um Yeah, like I think what's well something that's unique about us is that we we started learning about fertility awareness together because we weren't even we weren't engaged or married yet. Like we started learning about the that you actually didn't need the pill like in college. Yep. Um and I remember like when when you first like started actually learning it and learning the science behind it, your mind was blown, and then at the same time you were so angry, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Whew.
SPEAKER_01So like his scientific validity, like he's confirming to them like this is scientifically valid.
SPEAKER_04Um and like it's not just like praying I don't have more kids or like praying that I don't have cysts anymore or praying that my period cramps don't hurt. Like it's it's not like voodoo magic, it actually works. Um, yeah, so I I had like first been introduced to NFP fertility awareness um sometime in college and um decided to this is not what I would recommend to anybody, but I just went home and threw the pills in the garbage. Please don't do that. Consult a medical professional before stopping any medical treatment. Um, but that was my decision.
SPEAKER_01And um It landed you in the hospital.
SPEAKER_04It did land me in the hospital. As as as decisions like that does do, do so reckless, Monica. Um, but yeah, so so I landed up, I ended up in the hospital with um for a cyst rupture. And um, but that really that motivated me to really start to like figure out what is actually wrong because clearly the last four or five years on the pill didn't fix anything, it just kind of like covered it up. So um, so I found a resource, um, got the contact number for a local NFP instructor, um, called them at like an obscure young adult hour at night. Like it was, it was no, I remember this.
SPEAKER_01I remember this in my car. It was it was after either some sort of sporting event because it was after we were we were in the high school parking lot that we no longer attended as high school students. So we were college students in a high school parking lot, and no, we were not being inappropriate. We were calling NFP instructors to try to figure out Monica's health issues, as one does. Thank you. Um, but you know, I remember specifically, and you like you I just remember you talking to them and like poor poor them.
SPEAKER_05Poor them. They get a call from They were so good about it. Poor them.
unknownPoor them.
SPEAKER_00They get a call from you crying. I don't want to be on the pill. What do we do? What do you do with that conversation? Miss, this is a Wendy's. Imagine that. No.
SPEAKER_05Uh can I go on a tangent? Yes. Okay, so tangent, cool full circle. Wait, finish, finish.
SPEAKER_01How did they respond first?
SPEAKER_05Okay, first they okay, so they were wonderful, they were gracious. They gave me the number of a Catholic fertility doctor in New York City and said that they would pray for us.
SPEAKER_04Okay, full circle part.
SPEAKER_05Two years later, I'm standing in their kitchen.
SPEAKER_00You were invited. This is an important part to add. I found where they live.
SPEAKER_05I wanted to personally thank them. Oh, okay, so full circle, let me finish. So before I was so rudely interrupted, full circle, we had gone to a workshop and met some other young adult Catholics in the area.
SPEAKER_04And um one of the one of the guys in the group invited us back to their house for a bonfire. And we go to their house and people are starting, like, they're just talking, and they use the names of this guy's parents, and like something clicked, and I was like, get out of here. I know that, like, I know those names. I'm standing in the kitchen of the people I called two years ago, like asking for help. So I go over and I was like, you probably, you know, don't remember, you know, the this this teenage girl calling you, crying at 9 30 at night, you know, randomly. And they're like, We've been praying for you. You're the you're the youngest person that has ever called and like wanted to do something, and we were so amazed that it was a couple and and everything. So like, yeah, great, cool. 15 years later, we're still friends with them, and it's like wonderful.
SPEAKER_01But um that's an understatement. But no, it's uh it's amazing how God worked with that situation, and then like the confirmation of like this was yes, you did you you you really were following his will because like that's just an amazing like just like a little God nugget of like this is yeah, like embracing us. It was such an amazing um journey though, and I'm not saying that to be dramatic or but like it was a journey of like you had you were you had to unlearn a lot of the things that you were taught growing up, and just because as a and I think in the way the climate is now, people are more more willing to to challenge medical practices.
SPEAKER_03I wonder why, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But like they but they weren't but when we did this, like they weren't. It was just like whatever, you know, and we could that's a public health relations is a completely different episode, but um back then like it was just not a thing you did. So like you would just assume like what the doctor was saying was the right thing, right? And then when you finally met with a diff a doctor who could show you differently, um, and could you could even I remember sitting with with this the doctor in New York City again? We're not even engaged, but we were dating and I still went to the doctor with you, and um the doctor went over like the cycle and the and the different hormones that that that rise and drop to show you how a cycle worked and showed me how a cycle worked. I was educated too. Um, just being able to teach you these things, like that's I I would say that's probably the first time that a doctor took time to show you what was happening in your body, yeah. Versus just saying, hey, here take a pill, yeah, so that your symptoms go away.
SPEAKER_04And it was like amazing too because she was explaining like this is what's happening in your body, and as that's happening in your body, your body's also communicating what's happening. So on the outside, you are noticing these different symptoms, and that is related to this hormone or that hormone. And so you're you don't have to like keep wondering what's going on. Why do I feel this way? Why do I see this? Um, and and like, okay, and then because this is happening, this is where like this is something that we can intervene with, like this specific area of your health. Um, we can we can focus on because you have this symptom, and that means this hormone is out of whack or whatever. Um, and it was just like it was mind-blowing to me that like my body is communicating with me that way, and I can share that information with a doctor, and she can like do something about it.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04So cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and like this, this, the, this topic or like this this knowledge that you have, I think has been poorly poorly communicated to the greater church and just even the world in general, because of names like natural family planning. Yes. So when it first became a thing, right, that you can you can know yourself and and and the the things your body's communicating, um it was then like, oh, it's natural family planning. It's for people who are trying to avoid it or or conceive. Yeah. Um avoid pregnancy or conceive a child. And then and now the new word that's coming out that's being used more is fertility awareness, which I'm actually still not a hundred percent like I'm not bought into that, and I maybe I shouldn't even have a voice in this, but I'm not bought into it because it's still related just to fertility.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I'm like, but I I think that the awareness that you have, the knowledge that you have because of the signs that your body's telling you is just more of like the the an awareness of like your entire womanness. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Like you just this is what your body's cult awareness, right?
SPEAKER_01Because it does like you don't have to do it even like to track fertility, just to know your body. And I just thought that was that was just amazing. And I like I'm happy you're gonna be able to teach Gianna, but like the fact that our daughter's not gonna have to go through not knowing why her body does different things, yeah. Um, and that's and to feel like she's living in something that's very foreign to her. I don't I can't imagine what that's like as a guy. Like, I don't that must be very scary.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01To like, why are these things happening to me? Is there something wrong with me? Right. To constantly be questioning, like, that must be so hard.
SPEAKER_04Right. Yeah. It was like, yeah, just taking out the family planning planning part and just like being able to like anticipate certain things happening and not being caught off guard is like so liberating. So wonderful. So um, yeah, so that's kind of our journey of like how we came to first learn about fertility awareness, natural family planning, whatever you want to call it. Um, and then and and and that just like giving me so much confidence as a woman. Like I began to appreciate my my femininity so much differently once I learned that too. I felt like it was so cool.
SPEAKER_01So, like, and I like I like that here in this quote, St. John Paul's encouraging the healthcare professionals to continue to research the methods and like just talk about how but then he talks about how it needs to be, where is it, it needs to be taught and presented in a suitable anthropological and ethical context, according to Humane Vitae. So like this this awareness you have is definitely a power because and and like there's there's just because you have there's there's such a I think it's just a I don't want to say superpower, but there's definitely a power in in the knowledge that you have. Being able to pass that on well to other generations and to other married couples, I think is so important. And like back to our question, not just because you want to avoid the pill, like this isn't just about avoid contraception, but this is it's about being able to be fully human by fully understanding the the bride in the marriage, um, and then fully understanding like what fertility is and all all the ins and outs of it, no pun intended. Um, but the the sorry, shouldn't have had that in. Um but the so with us though, it wasn't It wasn't like we got married and then NFP like then it then the fertility awareness became natural fame planning and we started avoiding so we didn't have kids right away. Um we wanted to have a kid, we wanted to have a baby, and we couldn't. Yep. Um and that was like this this being aware of your fertility and being aware of the signs your body was was um giving. Giving off, showing you?
SPEAKER_04How do you how do you Yeah, the signs that my body was shocking? Communicating? Communicating. I like the word communicating.
SPEAKER_01The the signs and being aware of the signs your body was communicating helped our doctors kind of figure out how to help us conceive our first kid.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so we um by knowing, by learning fertility awareness, we went into marriage knowing that um infertility may be a part of our our story, a part of our marriage. Um because my body was telling me I'm you're not ovulating regularly. And by not regularly, I think I ovulated once in three years.
SPEAKER_01Well, I sorry, I think I think you kind of try not to give too much specifics because you don't want to like overspeak. Yeah. Um, so this is specifically about you, but your body wasn't producing enough progesterone. Yeah. And I don't think in like I think in other episodes we can go into like more of the science of it. Yeah. But specifically for you, your body wasn't producing the the hormone the way the way a typical body would.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So it was yeah, so it was not producing progesterone, and it was also not producing LH to to ovulate. So um glutenizing hormone. Yep, there you go. So um, so for even just for my my own like health before being married into marriage, even now, um, having low progesterone is something that my doctor addresses specifically, um, so that I can I can have a healthy regular cycle. Um, and and that helps to make sure that I don't have cysts and it helps to make sure that I'm regular and things are working the way they're supposed to. So she's able to like supplement specifically. Um But it was it was very um, it was hard, but it was also like very um, I think it was very important to our relationship to for you to understand and for me to understand like what was happening in my body or what was not happening in my body, and to like be able to enter into marriage like with that understanding and like that unified, that unified like cross, that unified struggle. Like we we know that this is a thing and um and we have a little bit of a plan on what we can what we can try doing um to help address it. But um it was it was like man, we were right off the bat we were talking about these things, we were discerning these things, we were communicating these things, like okay, we may not be able to get pregnant. Do do we want to try to use infertility treatments or do we just see what happens? Um and like constantly discerning that and bringing that to prayer and bringing that to conversation. That was that was a regular regular topic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um and in terms of interfertility treatments, I think maybe that'll be a topic for a different episode on like what what we did and what the church, you know, and I just remember that was a struggle um for you to even like conceive, you know.
SPEAKER_04But I feel like that's also what St. John Paul the Great is referring to here in his quote of like by understanding fertility awareness, you can better support women in their infertility and address their infertility with dignity and their and like seeing the holistic whole human feminine femininity, yeah, right that you're saying.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like I there's so in marriage, I think there's sorry, there's just a lot of things that needs to happen for a marriage to to be successful, and you and I don't know all of them things because we we aren't there yet. Like we know marriage is difficult, the uh marriage is difficult in on by itself, and then having to throw in the the worry about when we should have kids, it's just like it can be an additional burden. And I think right now the way that we are typically taught to address that burden is with contraception. And this is you know, as much as you might go to a a pre-Kana class or a marriage prep class and learn about natural family planning, it's probably the first time you've heard it, probably the only time you're going to hear it. And then everyone else, because like you get it from doctors from from a very young age, like it's just like, oh, you should go on the pill. And I think what that does is that it makes it specifically the wife's issue from a very young, even before you're married. This is the fertility, the fact that someone can get pregnant is just the woman's issue. So even and then even going into just marriage, like it's you, you're are you taking your your pill every day? You know, is this it like are you are you pregnant? You're the one that's got to worry before, you know, are you late? It it puts so much onus on the wife that you could even see like from that kind of description that that's not the way marriage should be ordered. Um and I think that uh fertility awareness implemented well, because again, St. John Paul doesn't see does not just say just implement it, yeah, but implemented let me find the word again because I like the way he said it. Um but um but uh when it's taught and presented in a suitable anthropological and ethical context, it it orders marriage the way it should be. Yep. Um, because I think that the same type of like onus on the woman could be done if fertility awareness is is implemented incorrectly.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And I think that because we see that there's a danger of that, I think that we should be aware going into marriage and just even going into thinking about kids. Like, are we appreciating our brides for who they are whole holistically, like all of them, or do we just appreciate them but kind of wish they're they didn't have the fertility at times?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Well, and that's yeah, to your point, like contraception, it like shuts down a woman's fertility. So then it's not a thing that we have to worry about. But again, it's still like it's still the woman that's responsible for it. She's still the one that's like ingesting or using or whatever method is being used. Um and fertility awareness is is like using how the female body communicates and in marriage when trying to avoid pregnancy is based on her fertile signs. Is she fertile or not? Is when you decide whether or not to have sex and possibly get pregnant. So one of the things that like we heard once that was so helpful is it's actually our shared fertility during those times. So if we're avoiding getting pregnant, we're gonna not have sex during times where we're both fertile at the same time. So it's not just because the woman is fertile at that certain period of time, but it's because the man is fertile all the time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I because I would and I I hope this is okay to share because I think that the first half of our marriage, we the we had the NFP down, like the fertility awareness was there. Yeah. Um, I knew all the terms, but the way it was implemented still put a lot of the onus on you. We charted together, but it still was like a hey, did you see any signs? Because that's that is the indicator of whether or not we could be intimate this night. And it it was it was a lot on you, and I know that that was a a heavy burden to carry, but so like, and that was a struggle that I I hated when we were in the middle of it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01I absolutely hated it, but um, I'm grateful that we had it, and I know that we would not have had it if we we were contracepting, if we had the pill or if we had any other contraceptive in it involved, like it just wouldn't, it wouldn't have been a discussion that that would have come up. Yeah, it wouldn't have been a struggle that we had to kind of work through, and it would have wouldn't have challenged me to love you more, right? Because it it I I had to learn to deny more of myself, to be more aware of who you are completely, and to stop being frustrated about really, really silly things. Um, there was just a lot of growing I had to do, and and I think for fertility awareness and NFP kind of forced it out of me. Um, but it's uh it's good to acknowledge that like we didn't implement it well though from the beginning. Because like that wasn't it became an awareness when we as we see things deter deteriorating, we were very like, well, this isn't the way it should be. Right. Um and I just kind of wish that was emphasized a little bit more, but you know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, because there's that level of resentment that can either fester or be resolved. Because like when you when you get married and you're being sexually intimate, like it's just natural that sex is ordered to be fruitful. So even when couples are contracepting, they're still wondering, did it work this time? Like, or did it did our method of contraception fail? And and so there's still that, like, and a lot of times couples won't speak that until, oh, I'm not late, everything's fine, right? And so there's still this like unspoken, festering, like resentment of fertility, of like the way that we were created and the way that this is ordered. So if we don't like call that out and say, like, this is hard. It is hard to want like two very different things. I want to be intimate and unified with my husband, but I also don't want to get pregnant right now. And I'm we're oversimplifying it. Like there are there are reasons for why you don't, and yada yada.
SPEAKER_01No, yeah, but I think it's important to talk in this way because I think that sometimes when we talk very flowery or or I don't know, whatever, theologically correct, I think we lose a lot of the common conversation and common language that people can connect with. So I'm I'm I'm cool with it. Okay.
SPEAKER_04Well then I'm gonna keep going. Um so like there's still that that mentality. There's still that, like, like I a lot of us just want to be able to have sex without all the extra stuff. Like, I just I just want to be with my husband, I just want to be with my wife. Um, but that's just that's not how we were created. And once like one thing that fertility awareness and NFP challenge us to was to not just like not get over it, but like fully appreciate why I was created the way I was, why you were created the way you were, and how like working with that and working in that like calls out these other things inside of me that we have to like work through in our marriage and that grace can perfect in our marriage. So like it brings about selfishness, it brings out the fear, it brings out the anxieties, like, why do I feel this way? And if you don't like if you don't bring it out, like NFP just kind of like highlights it and it allows it to be addressed because in NFP, like you're discerning, you're discussing every cycle. Are we avoiding, are we trying to achieve why or why not?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm I'm a big fan of the phrase that two things could be true at the same time, right? So like it can be true that that NFP is difficult, and this this whole understanding of fertility is very hard. Um, but at the same time, we could still be aware, we could still claim that it's still good. It's not a bad thing that this is hard. Yeah, those two things are those they're both they're separate things, but they're both true. So like there's goodness in the difficulty of this. Um I would say though, and this is something from St. John Paul's love and responsibility, he does make the point that if we're ever at a point, and this is difficult, and I don't know how it'll fit um in what we're saying, but like if we are ever at a point where we're like, you know what, we can't be parents anymore, like we can't conceive again, ever again. Um, he would argue that then we're at that at that point we should not be consummating anymore because there's always a chance. Yeah, nothing is a hundred percent, yeah, and and that goes for contraception, yeah. Any form of fertility awareness is never a hundred percent because but the difference with fertility awareness is that we ultimately give that final 0.01% to God, and like if he really wants a child to be conceived, then we will get the big van and and fine, yeah, fine. But um, but like we we kind of give him that that final say of that little percent. Um because if there's and then and just kind of to clarify the point you were making before, like there's yes, there's times when we're like we don't want to and don't want to, like you said, it maybe that's not the right way to say it, but like we haven't we we don't think we're at a point where we can in um conceive another child and bring another life into the into the world. Um but and I think you and I've said this, we've discerned it like, but if it happens, it's not the end of the world. Yeah. Um because we've had that happen before and felt like, oh my goodness, what are we gonna do? Right. And can't imagine my life without that one.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So like I life has only gotten better because of it. So like I think that's how that's why sometimes people that do practice NFP just end up having a lot of kids. Not because the method doesn't work, but because like there's just there's a reminder of that goodness. I don't know. I don't know if that's making sense.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you take over. You know what though, like I liked what you were saying in the middle of that was this like the locus of control. Where is the control of the fertility because there's always a chance of pregnancy small as it is, in any method that you're using, contraception or NFP. But NFP puts that that locus of control, that power, and surrenders it to God. Whereas contraception still tries to hold on to that power of fertility. And like that's one of the that's one of the things in marriage that like we have to surrender our lives to God. Like we have to surrender to his goodness and to his will and to his plan. Because if we're gonna be grasping and white knuckling at life, like that's not gonna build a good marriage, and that's not gonna build a good life.
SPEAKER_01And what's amazing though is that the the fertility awareness methods that um that we'll link in the show notes, like there's a lot of good groups out there now that you could reach out to and get a lot of resources from. Um, those methods are actually more effective than any contraception that's out there. It's not the calendar method.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_01It's much better than any of the things that you'll find in the regular medical community. Yeah. It's more, but still, even with that, I think those couples would say, yes, that final little bit, it is God's.
SPEAKER_04Well, and I'll say, like, we started by saying that infertility was a part of the beginning of our marriage, and then and then you just kind of drop the bomb of a surprise pregnancy while practicing NFP. Um, and I think that by our son being a surprise pregnancy through NFP versus contraception, also changed our mentality, our our framing of the surprise. Because instead of being angry at something else for failing, we had to humble ourselves and be like, God has given us a gift, and I don't understand it, I didn't ask for it, I didn't really want it right now. But like by changing that framing, like that changed our marriage. That changed the way we looked at our kids, that changed the way we looked at him, that changed the way we approached the pregnancy, like because again, where is that surrender of control? And and and life is a gift, life is hard. Life is not always what you expect it, but life is always a gift, and by practicing that in your marriage and being open to the fruitfulness of your marriage, it looks different, but like man, there's a lot to work through for that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and this is again the two two things can be true at the same time. Like, this is like you're saying that, and you're somebody who hated being pregnant, who hates being pregnant, yes, but can still appreciate the goodness of the gift that comes at the end. Yes, right, but like you could still hate being pregnant and and say, like, I you know, and and what after our second, you're like, I never want to be pregnant again.
SPEAKER_03But like you I'll deliver 50 babies.
SPEAKER_01That's because it takes you like five minutes. But like, yeah, no, but like it it's I think the the us creating false dichotomies of like either this is good or bad, like no, this is difficult, and and sometimes it's just terrible and it sucks, but like there could still be a good thing that comes out of it. Yes, right, and that's why like you said, the framing, because as Catholics, like that's the cross. Yes, again, like that is if that is our guiding principle, yes, then like there's gonna be so many things in our lives that are so difficult, but we can understand that at the end there's resurrection, there's good, and like sometimes that is like a surprise pregnancy. Like, okay, this is difficult.
SPEAKER_04It's literally giving my body over for somebody else.
SPEAKER_01I didn't have to do that.
SPEAKER_04No, but you had to deal with me, so that's that's a lot of sacrificing in itself.
SPEAKER_01Listen, you've you've been so many shapes, I can't and I can't believe that the human body can do that. It's just I am it's so amazing. Yes, but also like how did you how did you not just punch walls? Like, because like I like, all right, so I'm I am a 33-year-old male who has like plenty of back pain, hip pain, my ankles hurt, my knees hurt, but I my body hasn't like gained and lost the same amount of weight that that yours has. Like, I can't imagine how your body feels. And you've had it all do that, and then they have the audacity to yell at you because you didn't make the pancakes the way they wanted to. Like, what is that? So there's just a lot of like there you've the again appreciating the the the wholeness that is the woman in in her body and and her soul and everything, right? Like that's your fertility is included in that, and like that's you've done so much. Yes, and that's appreciating everything, yeah.
SPEAKER_04And that's a that's another like another check in the fertility awareness box is to like to appreciate the wholeness of who you are and appreciate the wholeness of who you are marrying. So for the husband to really like see his bride and and want all of her, commit to all of her, including her fertility, and then for the wife to one love herself and appreciate herself and see herself wholly and give that completely to her husband, to her spouse, and accept his wholeness, his fertility. Like it's that union, like that union that to become one flesh, it is now your fertility that you're that you're appreciating and and understanding and um and like I just think it's so key for marriages to like just to go in and understand, like we are human, we are biology, and we are spiritual and we are psychological. Like we should appreciate and know and understand all of that as best as we can.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think so, like, yeah, so before you even ask, it's so hard, like before even asking if you know when's the right time to have a child, or like how many should we have, like coming back to that, like are we fully just it just where are we coming from with this question? Right, like really, really checking our hearts at the door and being like, is this am I coming at it from a selfish perspective? Am I coming at from an open perspective? Am I coming at it fully appreciating my spouse for who they are and and what they bring to the table of our marriage? Like that's there's just so much involved in that question. It can't just be uh, you know, it can't it can't be something as simple as like, well, how much money you make in a month, like you know, what's the mortgage payment, how much you're paying for the apartment, you know, or how how much debt do you have? Like those are important things. Um, but like the the core of where that question's coming from. Like you said before, like it this fertility awareness and NFP really can pull out the selfishness. It's kind of like a poison in in our souls, like just pulling it out and really bringing it to the surface so that it can be healed and forgiven and repented of. And um right, like before we ask any of the before we start answering with any of the superfluous financial granted, finances are important, but like before we start answering with those, like coming at it with like, where's my heart?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. And then I I feel like fertility awareness and understanding um understanding those pieces of your health, like you were saying we should call this something different, like women's health understanding or whatever. Um it also like it it brings about those questions, like are we You know what's so crazy?
SPEAKER_01Sorry to interrupt. Yes, like there's no word for it 'cause it just it should just mean Being a woman. Like that just being a woman, it means you know, like you're taught these things. Yeah. I just like imagine for anything with like male related, like it's male fertility awareness. Like, what? Like, I don't know what that means.
SPEAKER_04Like, it just why is my body doing this right now?
SPEAKER_01It's just like, but like, you're just taught it because, like, oh, it's part of being a guy. Like, this isn't taught like that. It has to be its own specific thing that's taught. Like, what? That doesn't make sense to me.
SPEAKER_04I know. But you know what though? I kind of like it.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna- No, I appreciate all the people working hard to know.
SPEAKER_04No, and I, but you know what, like I kind of like it. I kind of like that it's it's something new and like a little uh like trying to wrap my my brain around and stuff, because I also think that it calls into question, it calls you to task to like are we both healthy? Fertility and not fertility, like like because all of that is intertwined. Like because I'm learning about my fertility, and I think like I start by thinking that it's some unique system in my body that's not interrelated to everything else, like, no, my diet affects that, my exercise affects that, my mental health affects it. And then you start to learn how much your body needs to work well, to work right. And and I think that by like learning fertility awareness and appreciating it, it also challenges you to be healthy in all the areas of your biology. Um and like that's important for parenthood. Like, am I being healthy? Am I going to like be able to be around for my kid? Like, that's important. I need to be able to keep up with them. I need to I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Anyways, yeah, like there's so much more we could we could talk.
SPEAKER_04Like this is something Pandora's box has been opened, keep tuning in because we'll talk about it more.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like there's just so much more we could talk about it but yeah, no, but I think I think at the core of it though, for it to answer today's question is that if you are at a point where you're asking, even if you're dating and engaged in asking the question of, you know, when's the right time to have your first kid, with go look into fertility awareness, look into NFP, and then realize like this is a method that's gonna it's gonna force you to ask yourself, like, where are you asking this question from? Are you asking it from a place of fear? Are you asking it from a place of like wholly loving your spouse and no wanting to know everything about them and and accepting them for who everything that they are, including their fertility? Um, it's really it's really a gut check and it's a heart check because it requires you to love the whole person, all of them. So before you even can even answer that question, um, I encourage any couples out there, even even if you're married, to just revisit this idea of fertility awareness and natural family planning. Um, even if you're practicing it often, revisit how it's being implemented in the home. Um, bring it to prayer, talk about it together, um, and we will definitely be bringing you more episodes like this in the future.
SPEAKER_04Stay tuned. Thanks for joining us. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the podcast and leave us a review. We'd also love it if we connected on Instagram at To Become Family. Let us know what you would ask if you had precana with the Pope. See you at the next episode.