Two Become Family Podcast: Conversations and Encouragement For Your Catholic Family
Welcome to the podcast where we echo the words of St. John Paul II and encourage families to "Believe in what you are!"
We are Renzo and Monica Ortega, we've been married 13 years, we have 5 kids, and our apostolate, Two Become Family, encourages Catholics who love the Church, love each other, and still feel like marriage and family life is harder than it's supposed to be.
Through our very candid, and sometimes uncomfortably vulnerable, conversations about sex, NFP, conflict, family life, we hope to spark conversations between you and your spouse leaving you with a little more joy and a lot more hope that you have what it takes to be a family.
Visit us at https://twobecomefamily.substack.com for more for your marriage
Two Become Family Podcast: Conversations and Encouragement For Your Catholic Family
Rehabilitating Chastity
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In today's episode, we talk all about chastity. We discuss why St. John Paul said we need to rehabilitate chastity, acknowledge why chastity is difficult in marriage, and talk about ways this virtue can change the way we give and receive love. Let’s jump in!
SUPPORT OUR MINISTRY
Please prayerfully consider becoming a patron and supporting our ministry! Support us on Patreon or buy us a coffee
Here are some things we mentioned in today's episode:
“Resentment consists in an erroneous, distorted relation to value. It is a lack of objectivity in assessment and valuation, a lack whose sources lie in the weakness of the will.” - Love and Responsibility
“The argument still circulates that “excessive chastity is detrimental to health, and that a young person should have a sexual outlet.” Above all, however, chastity and sexual abstinence are seen as dangerous opponents of human love, and therefore they are denied the right of citizenship in the human soul.”- Love and Responsibility
“we must bring about a certain rehabilitation of chastity. For this purpose, we must above all remove the enormous buildup of subjectivism in our understanding of love and of the happiness that love can provide to a man and a woman.”- Love and Responsibility
Chastity means the successful integration of sexuality within the person and thus the inner unity of man in his bodily and spiritual being. Sexuality, in which man’s belonging to the bodily and biological world is expressed, becomes personal and truly human when it is integrated into the relationship of one person to another, in the complete and lifelong mutual gift of a man and a woman. The virtue of chastity therefore involves the integrity of the person and the integrality of the gift. (CCC, #2337)
FREE RESOURCES
Fertility Awareness Cheat Sheet
Relationship Check-Up
Thank you all for your ongoing support. We love what we do, and we pray that it is a blessing to you and your families. If you are benefitting in some way from what we're doing, here are some ways you can support our show:
Our Books
Go To Joseph: 10 Day Consecration to St. Joseph
Go To Joseph For Children
Our Ministry
About Us
Connect with us and send us a message on Instagram
RECOMMENDED RESOURCES
Here are some of our favorite books and resources that will support your marriage, family, and faith. *Full disclosure these are affiliate links, which means we get a little kickback if you purchase it, but it’s at no additional cost to you.
Love and Responsibility by JP2
Theology of the Body by JP2
5 Love Languages by Dr Gary Chapman
Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramey
St. John Paul and his 5 loves by Jason Evert
The Porn Myth by Matt Fradd
Would you prefer to listen to these books instead? visit https://www.audibletrial.com/twobecomefamily for a free 30-day trial
Hey there everyone, this is Monica, and welcome to episode 20 of Pre-Cana with the Pope. In today's episode, Renzo and I talk all about chastity. We discuss where misunderstandings of the virtue come from and what chastity really looks like in marriage. Be sure to listen carefully for some great inspiration from JP2 and some pretty terrible ad lib analogies about who's in the driver's seat. We're so happy you're here with us, let's jump in.
SPEAKER_00Alright, and we're back for another one. Episode number 20.
SPEAKER_03Number 20.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So cool.
SPEAKER_00So I'm excited that we're doing this again. Um so before we get into our topic for the day, um, please, please, please drop us a uh a, we know what was gonna say, not a like, what do they call? A review? A rating. There you go. Rating. Rate us. Not me.
SPEAKER_03The podcast.
SPEAKER_00The podcast, not my jokes.
SPEAKER_03The joint effort.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Uh, but seriously, please, um, if you can, please rate us. Um, it helps get the word out there about the podcast, helps us get a wider audience. Um, we get we posted a little bit about it. We don't post as much of the feedback as I think we should. Most of the people that listen.
SPEAKER_01It's self-promotion.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's I it one, I don't like that it's self-promotion, but I also don't like that I don't want people to feel like if they reach out to us, we're gonna automatically use them as like an advertising thing.
SPEAKER_01That's true.
SPEAKER_00But I I think it's important so that people see like the this show is having an impact in its in its own little way, but like couples are talking, couples are having conversations. Yes, um, couples are are leaning into the tension a little bit. Um, we this past week we got um an email from someone saying that um they love the love languages episode, but then they were also talking about how um you know getting getting their spouse to like buy into this whole love language idea and respect their love language is difficult, yeah, um, and that they're finding encouragement. Oh, we also got another email. I don't know, we didn't talk about this yet, so welcome, we'll talk about this now.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, we got another email from a person who listened to our episode about um how to save the world. And so because of listening to the episode, they decided to stay and keep homeschooling next year. Yeah because they were ready to give up because they felt like it was too much, it's not making a difference to anybody.
SPEAKER_03Well, and they were thinking about going back to school for Oh yeah, for getting another degree, right, yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00And then they, you know, after listening to the episode and the emphasis of loving your family, yeah, feel like their greater impact is at home. Right, which is really very cool. Really cool.
SPEAKER_03And that's like that's our goal is to just like have these things out there for you to consider and to discuss and to evaluate as like a family, as a couple in your relationship. Uh like just take some time and like really discern about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so um, if you could if you could rate us, just just that little bit of support makes a huge difference.
SPEAKER_03Um thank you guys for your feedback. Whoever, whoever's reaching out to us, thank you for your authenticity and vulnerability. Um it means a lot to us that you're comfortable to do that, and that um that this is just a little tool for you guys, and we're just we're happy.
SPEAKER_00And if you're not reaching out, you're dead to us. Don't even bother. I'm kidding.
SPEAKER_05No, you're terrible.
SPEAKER_00No, but um, yes, please we encourage everybody to reach out. It helps us, um, helps us want to keep doing this and um really offering to God, like whatever this little bit is, whatever he wants to make out of it.
SPEAKER_03And it's and if this is your first episode, that's Renzo joking.
SPEAKER_00Look through the ratings, see what they say. It's like five stars every time that Renzo gets a dad joke. It'll become a drinking game eventually. Only if you listen to the podcast at night, sorry, not during the day. Don't encourage while driving. This is my commute podcast. Some people some people run or do like yeah, exercise to this. I'm like, oh sorry guys, I'm not more encouraging. Keep going, one more set in the middle of our cover. Okay. Um, so so one of the so the the topic today I think is pretty heavy um because it I think it covers a lot of different arguments that are out there right now. And like it's it's pretty crazy. So we're gonna talk about chastity today.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um but like chastity, I think, is so relevant now in so many circles.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, all the circles.
SPEAKER_00Right. So like um, so like there's a there's you
Difficulties with Chastity
SPEAKER_00show me a post that you you got from one of the um Facebook groups that you're in.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um particularly about like a couple and if you're an NFP group. Yeah, do you want to elaborate a little bit on that?
SPEAKER_03Well, which one I share a lot with you?
SPEAKER_00The most recent?
SPEAKER_03I have to look at it. I feel like I shared like three with you today. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So um Uno Momento. Uh Momento in the Recordo. Sorry.
SPEAKER_03Sorry.
SPEAKER_00You did a screenshot.
SPEAKER_03I did. I was looking at it. I was trying to so I shared most I mostly screenshotted my response to it. Um yeah, so this this particular post was about um a couple who has very, very valid reasons to try to avoid pregnancy in their marriage, and the husband was um like posted this asking, is this a valid reason for vasectomy to increase the odds, to improve the odds of NFP working? To increase the odds, to improve the odds of NFP working, and um like what's the church's stance on vasectomies, particularly given their circumstances, their situation, what can they do? And then um and and repeatedly he brought up like that extended periods of abstinence were not an option because he felt like that was detrimental to their marriage. So that was that was the question that was posed in the group.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So there's there's that. Um and we've seen other questions, and they haven't been posed to us yet, but we've seen other questions similar to that of just couples struggling that that try to do NFP that just struggle with with um long periods of abstinence in their in their marriage.
SPEAKER_03Um and and mostly And long can vary from couple to couple, what that means, what that word means.
SPEAKER_00But right. Um but like and then some most of the time it ends up being, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it ends up being like the husband is unhappy with the amount of time that they're abstaining, and is and then is then saying, Well, that this isn't right, you know, that we have to I guess I would say more often than not, it's the husband that has an issue with it, that like why is it this way?
SPEAKER_03And like it definitely brings a lot of challenges and questions up, and then there are well the question of like where's the line too of like well, can we do other things?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but it's funny because like I feel like we're we're right back to like in in high school. How far is too far? Yeah. What's the line?
SPEAKER_03Right. And yeah, and then just the challenges of like, okay, during periods of abstinence, then we feel disconnected, we feel like we're not being intimate, um, and our marriage suffers during periods of abstinence. So I think that comes up. I think that one is like pretty mutual, male and female. I think, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and then um I and then so like there's that, so like it's also Pride Month this month. Yeah. And um, we're not gonna address all of that this episode, but one of the things that I think is pretty well known out there is that the church's stance on it is that if a person um does identify as homosexual or or gay or same-sex attraction, whatever way you want to word it, um, their recommendation or prescription or like what they say is their calls to chastity.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like they're called to live a chaste life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, the same as like anybody who's single that's not married yet, any engaged couple, um, they're they're called to live chastely. And the same as a married couple, they're all called to live chastely in whatever whatever chastity looks like in their stage of life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and like I think so. The reason I bring up that is because I was, I forgot what I was reading, but a lot of the things that I'm reading, and I and I like to read things from the other side of the aisle, like things that I maybe don't fully agree with or that are like counter what I to I believe.
SPEAKER_03I really do like just to hear what other people have to say.
SPEAKER_00But like more of like reading it from like having somebody who believes like me writing about it. Like, I don't know. I like to dive into like, okay, imagine I'm I'm you, like, how do you understand this concept? And what I'm coming to see is that that the idea that chastity, and this seems to be like for everybody, so like this isn't just whatever side of the aisle you may not be on. People just seem to not like chastity and feel like it's it's an unfair uh recommendation prescription. I forgot.
SPEAKER_01Purden, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like it's it's unfair to say like a person needs to live out chastely.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00Because I and I think that to the point that we see it as like not we, you and I, but like that the world is kind of seeing it as opposite of love, like that if you live chastely, like you cannot fully participate in love, achieve love, give love, and receive love, because chastity is like a barrier. Because you're holding something back, yeah. Right. So like to so like to say to that to the so and that goes again, we're trying I'm trying to just chastity in general. So like in the the couple that you just talked about in the Facebook group, like the husband sees that as a barrier, yep. To to be out to abstain from sex and live chastely for a long period of time in the relationship, and then also like in a completely different type of scenario to say to it to a to a young person, like, oh, you have to live chastely because of XYZ, so whatever the reason, they see that as like an obstacle of love, and and I think that that is it it just makes the whatever the church's message is after that fall on deaf ears, right? Like, if we just start from that, right? If we start from that, like if everyone believes that that's true, that chastity like prevents love from being able to occur, then no one's gonna want to hear what the church has to say, right? So, like and what I think is crazy is that Pope John Paul wrote about this years ago in love and responsibility, like he wrote about it before was this was a thing, and I do think for a lot of it he saw this was gonna happen in the way that things were moving, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um he saw the trajectory, right?
SPEAKER_00So that's why in chapter three of love and responsibility he writes about rehabilitating chastity, yeah. Um, which I think is so like and we talked about this a little bit other times, but like just the idea of chastity growing up in high school and college was so hard for us to understand.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and I think a lot of that was because of the things that we grew up consuming, like the movies, the music. Um, we what? My Backstreet Boys?
SPEAKER_04I was yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking.
SPEAKER_00This is us.
SPEAKER_04Um but like but so This is us is the this is the continued millennial
Millennials keep struggling
SPEAKER_04version of Backstreet Boys.
SPEAKER_00No love. I love love. No, um, but so no, but so like I think so, and I think if you with the things that we are we were consuming, like I we already started seeing chastity as like a barrier to love because um the way that love is portrayed in media, and this is when we were growing up, so like the mid-90s, it was portrayed as like a it was portrayed as equal to like getting physical and and being in a romantic, yeah, sensual relationship. Um so like just from the get-go, like chastity was like, this is this doesn't make any sense. How does this fit in?
SPEAKER_03Right. Yeah, you know what's like what's so interesting to me now is like in our mid-adulthood now, like we're we're past our young adulthood. I just find it so like a combination of interesting and baffling and discouraging and encouraging and all like so many different emotions of like that we're still facing the same conflict that we were when we were like preteens and teenagers. There's this whole idea of chastity and how to love rightly, like how to love the person I love well. And like I think like at the core of it, we've we've all got something right, and that like our bodies are speaking something to us that says that sex is good and that we desire sex, and we and then like beyond that we desire intimacy, and sex is intimate, so we lump those together, and then um, okay, so then anything that feels like sex feels intimate, and then that must be good, and now like now we've kind of like spread out so much from the like the the core of of what our bodies are speaking to us, and then we're allowing like all of these things to be desired, and if it's desired, then it must be okay, and and and kind of like you said, like you said, going back to like where's the line? How far is too far? What am I allowed to do with my girlfriend at 13 years old? You know, it's like it's still the question is like, what can I do with the person I'm engaged with? And what can I do with my spouse if we're okay, so we know that we're not supposed to use contraception, and like what can I do if we're not trying to have a kid right now? And and it's just so wild to me that like that question still comes up, and it's something that like I I mean we wrestle with, right? And like these in times of abstinence for us when trying to avoid pregnancy or what have you, it's like tempting, like these, like I get the temptations, I get the the questions, I get the feelings, but it's it's just crazy.
SPEAKER_00Because I would say
Struggling with feelings
SPEAKER_00like a lot of so more than like the the same struggle, but I think that a majority of us have still struggle with like we still have all these desires. Yes, right? Like these I still have these things, like where do I put them?
SPEAKER_03Um because I think your hand gestures right now, no one can see, but he kind of wiggled near his belly.
SPEAKER_00That's where they start. That's where the feelings start. Um because I think I think we were sold at some point the idea that like if we got all of our faith things in check, like the desires would not be as strong.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00Right, like the desires would like thank you for articulating better what I'm well I well thank you for being the sounding board of my life. But I I think that we I think at some point like it that was what we were told it would happen.
SPEAKER_03Like, okay, so like you you get your faith, you you pray, you you give everything to Jesus, you try to love the right way, like either that our desires would be put in check, or our desires now must be ordered. So then, like, okay, these feelings that I have because my prayer life is pretty okay, my life is pretty in order for the most part, like then what I feel must be good. Like it m that must be what I should do, right? Because I did all the other I checked all the other boxes.
SPEAKER_00Right, or yeah, right.
SPEAKER_03So like or yeah, or I've checked all the other boxes, why do I still feel this way?
SPEAKER_00Right, because right, that's that's a good point. Like, because we kind of and I I didn't articulate this way when when I was when I got married, but like you kind of feel like, all right, well, now that I'm married, like I'm in this box of like marriage, so like I'm in a padded room of marriage, so like I'm not gonna hurt myself in this, I can let things go. And like, but then like all willy-nilly, everything. But like, so and that was a big struggle of ours in our first half of the first half of our marriage. Absolutely. Right now it's half, but like when we further down, it'll be a quarter. That's how things were.
SPEAKER_03Now we brought the math.
SPEAKER_00That's how math. I'm gonna cut off the other math so they won't know what you're talking about now. Um, no, but like the I remember so and this was a struggle with our marriage, especially with with practicing NFP as a young couple, and like there was just a misunderstanding of the desires and like what I'm supposed to do with them. Yeah. Because I did because like you assume, like, okay, now you you're married, so like it's okay.
SPEAKER_04All the things go, right?
SPEAKER_00Everything's a go, but now like, but there's still times when you have to kind of to to practice temperance and not go, and then you're like, all right, but I'm still stuck with these feelings, what am I supposed to do? And again, like we are we grew up with this sensual idea of like, oh, so like, but if I'm feeling all these sensual feelings, isn't if I light these candles, isn't this gonna work? Like, no, there's other things that go into into a romantic relationship.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Um, and I didn't realize how important chastity was to in order to make that work.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so I remember one night we got into a big fight about this. What are you about to bring up? I don't remember, except that it was a fight. I just remember like that wasn't the big part of the the Okay, no, so I mean we got into a big argument, and um, like I just because because it was as a husband at that time, I was feeling like um, and I wouldn't say it in like a way like that you owed me anything, but more of like, okay, so we can't, fine, but what am I supposed to do with all this? And I do know that there's some there's some men in the the um sorry, the Facebook group that have said, like, well, can can he still have his release with XYZ? Right, right, and but I knew like no, that's not allowed, that's not moral. We didn't believe that was moral, so we're not living that out. So like I was just left with like what do I do with all these feelings then? Um and I remember you going to sleep and I took love and responsibility and I just sat on the couch and started reading love and responsibility. No idea why, like as one does, as one does when someone is flooded with passions and emotions, you go to the thickest theology book that you could read just to douse you. No, it instead of a cold shower, I was like, I'm gonna read philosophy.
SPEAKER_04Um but no okay, such a nerd. But then thankfully you bring it to things like this. Yes, okay, but so I share the wisdom with those other guys who won't pick up the water.
SPEAKER_00So this is this is the like I remember like this is at the end of the book. Like this is at the I don't know why I was reading through the end of the book. This is whatever. But um, so this is at the very end of love responsibility. St. John Paul II says that the most important thing is to convey to man the proper hierarchy of values and to show what positions the sexual drive holds in that hierarchy. Its use will be then subordinated to the end it is to serve. Furthermore, man must be convinced about the possibility and necessity of conscious choice. It is necessary to restore to man, as it were, the consciousness of the freedom of the will and of the fact that the sphere of sexual lived experiences is fully subject to his will. And like I so I remember reading that and being like and just reading that, like, okay, you have these feelings, you're still in control. Like this isn't this and that just blew my mind, and it seems so simple, but of like you may have passions, but you aren't your passions.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00And like, and not even joking, like in that moment, like things just clicked for me of like, oh okay. So I'm still going to have passions, I'm still going to have desires, but like they're supposed to be the the sphere of
Do we need a release?
SPEAKER_00sexual lived experiences is fully subject to this will. Like, so I still have a will.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And and that is greater than your passions. Correct. If you practice it.
SPEAKER_00Right. Right. And like that's oh, oh, that's chastity in marriage.
SPEAKER_03And that you're not going to implode or explode or disintegrate if your passions are not met with sex. Right.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Or like, oh, or with whatever whatever the the husband might think, or husband or wife or whatever would think is the release. Right. But like, no, you're you're not gonna explode. And you're not gonna disintegrate. And like this is this is how human beings are.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00And like you need the passions, and like that, that's something that that adds to life. But like they're still they're supposed to be subordinate to our will.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And just under just hearing that, because basically what he's saying is is okay, and which is like, which is why in earlier in in Right, because that's why in early in Love and Responsibility says that we have a resentment towards chastity. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And one of the other things that he says is we must bring about a certain rehabilitation of chastity. For this purpose, we must above all remove the enormous buildup of the subjectivism thanks to in our understanding of love and of the happiness that love can provide to a man and a woman.
Why chastity talks aren't enough
SPEAKER_04Sorry, watching watching you laugh at how I read.
SPEAKER_03Um and like I I love the I love the tier the term rehabilitation or even like the word restore. Like, we need to restore what chastity actually is instead of like our perception of what we've heard of chastity to be, whether that's from you know, chastity talks in middle school from our 70-year-old religious ed teacher, or you know, we went to a guys and girls talk at a at a conference, and you know, and they were like green light, red light, this is yes, this is no. And there was there, there is no possibility of a holistic picture of chastity and how that looks in every season of life, every stage of life, in a one-time sit-down conversation or a one-time read through, one time talk, like what chastity looks like, even though it's a virtue, it's a virtue that crosses all ages, what that looks like is different in different stages. So, what yeah, what you learned when you were 13 as far as chastity is like don't have sex, like period. But what chastity looks like in marriage is so different. And how do I apply chastity? Because it doesn't just mean don't have sex, because in marriage, like, aren't we supposed to encourage to have sex? Like, so I think I love his term of a rehabilitation of chastity, a restoration of chastity. Like, what does it actually what does chastity actually mean? And and what you had read in Love and Responsibility is that. It's like it's a conquering of the will. Like and and and it's directed at how you love somebody else. Like the conquering of the will, of my own personal feelings, and then like having my will work towards the good of the other person, of loving them well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I think the part from the quote that you just read though, that I think is like most important is that we have to remove the the buildup of the subjectivism in our understanding of love and happiness. Because like, so I think you start there because and I think that's why like the the Disney movies we watched growing up is the problem or is one of the problems, and I think that's why our generation is still struggling with this now. Like you mentioned, we struggled with this as teens and we're still struggling now because at some point it was given to us the idea that like the love and happiness that we're hoping for is based on what we think it is, like is based on like these ideas that we're given as like, oh, you know, you're gonna live happily there ever after, you're you know, you fall in love and you give your life for the other person within two days of meeting each other via Titanic or like whatever movies we grew up with, like that's the subject subjectivism that we have, and then we go into marriage or any relationship with that. Like, okay, this is I want love with this person, this
Love isn't about passions
SPEAKER_00is what I think love is, I want happiness with the person, this is what I think happiness is, and it's live moment to moment, it's is it's fast, it's it's fiery, like these are all the things that that we're supposed to have in a romantic relationship, and like that's I think why chastity doesn't fit. And I also think that's why divorce happens because like at some point you don't feel those things anymore. Right.
SPEAKER_03Like there's all this that goes into so it must mean something is broken, and either we need to restore the passion or we need to move on.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. And I think even and like you wouldn't think it, but like chastity even speaks to that of like, no, it's not about your passions.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So like even like they might be burning like a huge flame, or they may not be there at all. Like, no, chastity assures that love isn't about those passions, right? Whereas like the passions can add to it, which is fine. I like that's what kind of what St. Thomas Aquinas says. Um, but like our passions aren't supposed to be what guides us, it's it's supposed to be like an additional thing to it. Um, I liked like I like in mentioning Aquinas. I like how what St. Saint Thomas Aquinas says about chastity is that um chastity takes its name from the fact that reason chastises can concupiscence, um, which I think is I guess s silly, but like I like the way he worded that. Um and then he goes on to say that the essence of human virtue consists in something being moderated by reason, therefore it is evident that chastity is a virtue. Um and the idea, and this is from that's from the Summa Theologia, but the idea that, like you mentioned, like the will um in our reason is what's what's takes the a hierarchy over our our feelings or and our concupiscence is like our sinful feelings or sinful passions that we might have from original sin, but that like our our reason and our will comes first, and like that's what chastity tries to make sure that we can do before we're married, because if we don't we're not able to do that, we're not able to love.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00And like, because I and I that and like reading that quote from St. John Paul, I'm like, oh, you're right, because like if I'm gonna give my life to Monica, I have to be willing to die, and that's not a natural passion thing I want to do. I don't want I I want to stay alive, but I have to be willing to give my life for my wife.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Um, and that only happens by like these moments where like I can die to myself right now, I can die to myself right now. Um and like, and that's what this is why he says people have a resentment though, because people don't want to be told that they have to die.
SPEAKER_03Yes, right?
SPEAKER_00We don't want to be told like no, you're not gonna fulfill that passion, and that's good and we don't hear that.
SPEAKER_03So, like, how could that be good then? Like, how could not giving into our passions be good for our marriage, for myself, for my spouse? Like, how could that how could that be good if I'm feeling this passion towards my spouse and I want to be sexually intimate with them, but for whatever reason, either my spouse is not in the mood, like we're not passionate at the same time, um, or we are trying to avoid pregnancy or the kids are still awake, or like whatever it's like how can that be good? So, like, how can that be good for my spouse for us to not like how can that be good for our marriage to not give in to the passion?
SPEAKER_00I guess it depends on the situation, like it it cause there's so many different situations in like that you could give in to the passion or not. Does that make sense? So, like first I would say that if you're you are looking for just sex sexual gratification, then you should not be engaging in sex. Like, because the you should be wanting to be with your spouse, right? Not just wanting to have sex. And if you're just wanting to have sex, you should not be having sex with your spouse, and you need to really sit and pray about that because that needs to um like you should you're not allowed to lust after your spouse. Yeah. Like that's it, like uh being married isn't like a free ticket to like, okay, now you could now you are my release.
SPEAKER_03My release is directed.
SPEAKER_00Like you're in your padded room of marriage, and like you can now you can let it all out. Like that's not what it's supposed to be.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um, so like I would so like that could be one of the ways where like, no, you you you have to learn to control these passions.
SPEAKER_03Right. Um and that would be like the rehabilitate re rehabilitating, reordering the way that you see your spouse as a whole person as opposed to a release to a sexual. Right.
SPEAKER_00She's not your spouse isn't a means to an end. Yeah. Um and like that's that like I think that's the first problem. And then like and and this is a conversation they should be having though, way before they get married, hopefully with like a good holy priest and like a couple, like there's just a lot of conversations that need to be happening because um, like it needs to be an open, intimate conversation, but like so like that could be one of them, and then also if your spouse is not mentally doing well, yeah, right. So like it could be from like overwork or whatever. Like, there's a lot of times where life is happening around us, and like there's still the passions that are there, but like, okay, but my spouse is very tired right now, or my spouse and I are have not been connecting in other areas.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_00Like, let me see if I can like there's there's those times where like because the passion try because our passions try to try to jump our reason, yeah. Like we could end up being like, Well, it's you know, in the moment, and I sorry, I'm jumping all over the place, but I think our phones is actually a reason why this is also hard too, because like our phones give us instant instant gratification. It's really easy to just swipe, swipe, swipe, and we get all the dopamine. So then we we end up getting some sort of sexual desire that jumps our reason. And the dopamine hit from sexual
Passions and marital love
SPEAKER_00desire is a lot more than if you're being a reasonable person. Right. So we're more likely to be like, well, I'll follow this, let's see where the dopamine takes me right now. And usually it's gonna take you into a fight because like that this isn't what this isn't what's best for you and your your your spouse right now.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Um so like being aware of that and having your will be able to, no, no, no, this isn't let's let's order these correctly again. Yeah, I know you want this passion right now, you want this release, but your spouse told you they were having a bad day all this whole day, they need extra time to themselves. Can you do something to help your spouse, blah, blah, blah? Like that's that's where things should be ordered. Like, and I didn't, I wasn't doing that in the first half of our marriage. I know I wasn't, because the the passions would come and just jump, and I wouldn't recognize the jump happened until after. Because now I can recognize, like, wait, wait, okay. I because I it's definitely I feel as though now there is a I feel like there is a a conductor that can be like, okay, let's hold on, let's let's reorder these things again before we keep moving.
SPEAKER_03Um and that's the practice of virtue, is that like that that feeling isn't like cured or gone? It's the like my reasoning has now been strengthened. Like I've worked out my reasoning muscles to like be ready for when passions hit that I can I can assess the situation. And is this a time where we can go with those passions and and be sexually intimate, or is this a time where I need to chill out a bit?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03Um, I think too, like going to another example of when abstinence is a is a call in your marriage might be when like it's it's not a time to add to your family and you're practicing natural family planning. And that's again, like you said, a continual ongoing conversation. And like whatever that reason, that motivation that you've come to through discernment as to your reason why we're not adding to our family right now, like that you have to just remind yourself of that like imperative reason, whatever that may be, that's between the couples. But like, okay, that's the good of our marriage right now is to focus on whatever this thing is physical health, mental health, finances, lots of kids really close together, and it's just like too chaotic, whatever, whatever it is, like, and to just like remind yourself of that and to like this is the pause button right now. We're waiting until green light, fertile windows over. Um and like and that's why, like, that's that's the other good, that's the greater good that you're working towards. Cause I think what's hard too is that like like sex is not bad. And I think that we've we've kind of like again with our dichot like this false dichotomy between like the secular world and the Catholic world that like like sex is dirty and bad. Like, no, your your sexual desire for your spouse is very good. Um but sometimes there's a greater good in your marriage of practicing chastity and abstaining because there's something else greater that your marriage is being called to at that time, and but like that your sexual desire for your spouse is not bad.
SPEAKER_00Right. Well,
Love is more than the moment
SPEAKER_00I think what chastity does it it reminds us that love isn't accomplished in a moment. Because I think like I think Oh, that's a good line. Thank you. You messed up my thoughts. Sorry, no, but like I because you're just mentioning that, like, because we've had those conversations before of just like of we've you've said to me, and I hope this is okay to share, like you've said, like right now I feel like I'm struggling, not struggling, but like I'm at the at the end of being able to be a present parent to all of our kids, right? So like and you said you've said that, and and so I've heard that, and so like, yeah, so right now for and for there's other reasons as well, but like we're pausing on on conceiving, so therefore, because we think that's what's best for our family and we've discerned it, and so therefore, um, yes, there's moments where like it's close to you know, there's a conception time and we both want to, and okay, but like love is more than just this moment, like the like I like instead of allowing the passions to take control in that moment because we want to live out whatever love is in the Titanic movie, like and sorry, I keep going back to that one, but like just like an impression on you, it's totally like three days long, and like we're supposed to believe this whole love story happened in three days, and I'll never forget him. And Celine Dion sings songs for me, but like all of this happens in three days. Um, but like there's there's is this drive of like having this whole huge buildup, but like love isn't just that, like love is the entirety of our relationship, and so like that's but that isn't like you're it's not like you're not able to see that unless you have chastity because chastity is allows the freedom to be able to see the entirety of the relationship besides just oh, I just need a release in this moment. Like you're missing the point.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, right. And like that's I love yeah, the wholeness and the catechism actually, when defining chastity, talks about the integration of the whole person. So I'm gonna read that really quick. Chastity means the successful integration of sexuality within the person and thus the inner unity of man and his bodily and spiritual being. Sexuality in which man's belonging to the bodily and biological world is expressed, becomes personal and truly human when it is integrated into the relationship of one person to another in the complete and lifelong mutual gift of a man and a woman. The virtual the virtue of chastity, therefore, involves the integrity of the person and to and the integrality of the gift. Sorry for butchering what I'm reading today, guys, but I hope you heard. Um but it's it's this wholeness, it's the wholeness of your relationship, it's the wholeness of your beloved. It is like chastity is what puts all of that into perspective, that it's not just this moment, and my beloved is not just a body for gratification, like it's a wholeness, it's our whole life that we've built together, and chastity, rightly ordered, like celebrates that. It celebrates that in times when we're able to be sexually intimate, and then it celebrates that in times where we have to be abstaining. Like, chastity is both. Chastity is not abstinence, abstinence is part of chastity, but like so is sex. Sex is part of chastity too, and like like loving our spouse well in the act of sex is chaste, right? Right. And like, like when I'm when when we're having sex and we're being completely totally intimate with one another, like body, soul, all of it, like that's chastity too, and like loving the whole person and loving the whole person well within marriage is right, because because it because chastity falls on the temperance and like it's the the idea that the passions aren't the ones in the driver's seat.
SPEAKER_00And I think that's like it's not that the passions aren't existent, yes. I think there's another thing of like, oh wow, like that must be really boring.
SPEAKER_03Really lame sex, right?
SPEAKER_00Which is like, oh, like I can't look at you because I might like you. Like, no.
SPEAKER_04But like that's not Blightphones are okay, but not for that reason.
SPEAKER_00But like that's that's but I think that that's also so because St. John Paul in in earlier in Love and Responsibility says that the argument still circulates that the excessive chastity
Excessive chastity
SPEAKER_00is detrimental to health and that a young person should have a sexual outlet. Above all, however, chastity and sexual abstinence are seen as dangerous opponents of human love. Because I think we believe that chastity means everything is super vanilla, like nothing is is ever like there there is no passion. It is constantly a I don't know, like a dry desert. I don't know. Oh, no, it's not fiery. Everything is ice cold. It's a vanilla desert. Chastity's a vanilla desert. Um, but like I think there's that there's that belief that like wow, everything and because yes, so it but it's no you still feel the passions, and if anything, the passions put in in their correct hierarchy should lead us to fuller union. Yes, it's like it's like your desire for the Eucharist. It's it should be so like a person's desire for the Eucharist to be united with God, to be one with the God of the universe should be one that that drives us to Mass and drives us to receive Him. Um, but that it's not like uh if who anybody who's had a powerful experience with God wouldn't call that as like not as non-emotional, like there the emotions should drive us to that union.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_00The union isn't isn't made what it is because of the emotions, yeah. But the emotions should drive us there in the same way. Like the passions that we experience um as husband and wife should lead us to a communion.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It should, but it that only happens if chastity is is the one in the driver's seat. If chastity is somewhere else, then like then it then that opens up to lust, that opens up to use of the other, that opens up to so many um disordered things in the same way that and like I know we talked about this in another episode, but like in the same way that reception of the Eucharist, like it needs to be done in a certain way, or else it's not being received the way as it ought to be received.
SPEAKER_03Yep. And I think too, like, um like with passion not being in the driver's seat, but being like, you know, the in the in the car. I don't know.
SPEAKER_04But but there are also times where changing the radio station putting on Celine Dion.
SPEAKER_00Passion's is such a such a jerk.
SPEAKER_04Do you remember in high school how you learned how to play that song on the piano for me for my birthday?
SPEAKER_00That was the worst. I remember I I picked up so many balloons from the dollar store. How old were you turning? 18. I picked up 18. I picked up 18 balloons from the dollar store, and I remember walking up through your basement, and you got you had that stupid popcorn ceiling. It popped every single one of the balloons as I was walking up. And I was like, I have no, I had like four balloons left. And then I had to then I played the the piano thing. I I stayed up, I stayed, I went to St. Joe's to learn from Dr. Withka, and I learned how to play My Heart Will Go On on the piano. On the piano, and then I played it for you with four balloons. That was great.
SPEAKER_04It was very romantic.
SPEAKER_03Um But I so when your passions don't play Celine Dion for you, um, I do think that also there are times in marriage where in like like one person may feel very passionate and the other person might feel neutral. But like like sex is a good in your marriage too. And to like to desire to be intimate with your spouse doesn't always mean that you're like fiery, passionately, like turned on and horny. Like sometimes like the desire for intimacy is to like is can be vanilla, but that doesn't mean that your relationship is vanilla. Like vanilla doesn't vanilla doesn't work. But that's right, because so like it like still being sexually intimate is is like a very good way for you to to be intimate with your spouse and to like grow, like to to just affirm your relationship, like that that is good too.
SPEAKER_00Right. Because if you think that your passions need to be in the driver's seat and the passions aren't there, you feel like, well, there's no reason to take the car out of the driveway or out of there.
SPEAKER_04You go.
SPEAKER_00I'm just I'm just sticking with these analogies. Stay with it. This is the analogy episode. But right,
Building virtue from an early age
SPEAKER_00but like if you and I know that that that's there's just all these issues that I think come up in relationships because like we don't know how to love, right? Because we were I think we were just built up by the world in a very different way. And I don't think the church really ever really provided answers throughout like it, I think it tried once we got to high school, but like imagine hearing this for the first time at 16, 17, like, yeah, it's gonna take years to for this to understand all of the intricacies of this.
SPEAKER_03Right. Um But I also think like in fairness, how much is appropriate to tell like a hormonal 16-year-old that like eventually you can do all these things with just your spouse, but in like all things go almost.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think so, like similar to so like all right, so instead of instead of like us experiencing whatever the movies and everything as kids, like imagine we were we were I don't want to say trained, but I think that's the only way to really do it, but like training children from their young to to pursue virtue in different areas. Like you don't have to even talk about chastity, but like once once the sexual sphere like and and and um puberty hits, like that just becomes another area of your life virtue. So like up to what 12, 13, like you're being told to build virtue in all these other areas.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Oh, now there's sex, oh there's another virtue for this, and this is what it's called, this is how it's exercised. So like it just becomes like this is how you live life. Yes, you live life well, which I still think is the best argument for the existence of God, is like the the way like the a life well lived is the Christian life because it's the virtuous life, but whatever.
SPEAKER_05Um, but like I digress, the car is driving itself now.
SPEAKER_00But like, so I I think that that should be the way that we introduce it. And I don't I don't think that there's that much focus on virtue because a lot of virtue is seen as as restrictive, and you're not letting me be free and be do what I want to do.
SPEAKER_03Right. And I would challenge like any couple right now listening that's struggles with the virtue of chastity. Like, I would challenge you to also look at how are you personally practicing the other virtues. Like, are you able to be prudent and temporal and um and and things like that? Like, because they're very interrelated. Um, and you're thinking of all the virtues.
SPEAKER_00We're fortitude and justice, sorry.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. Um but like like are you able to practice those too? Because obviously this episode is all about chastity, but like within your relationship, all of those are very important for a healthy marriage and a good Christian life, the Christian life lived well. So I think um that would be a challenge for for couples listening that like, gosh, chastity is so freaking hard. And like, like, yes, it is, so are all the virtues. So, like maybe practice one, like pick a different one first and work on practicing that.
SPEAKER_00Yes. So sorry, I last quote from from St. John Paul, for again from Love and Responsibility this chapter, but like the resentment that we have, not just of chastity, I think we have a resentment to virtue in general, consists in an erroneous, distorted relation to value. It is a lack of objectivity in assessment and valuation, a lack whose sources lie in the weakness of the will. Yeah, like we don't see the value in in virtue in a virtuous life because we we see our passions and in all areas, so not just sex, in all areas, we would rather give in to our passions because life is a lot more comfortable that way.
SPEAKER_03Well, and you said freedom before. So, like a lot of people see freedom as giving into your passions, like going wherever your passions go. But like, that's actually like you're a slave then to your passions. Because if you just have to go wherever they go, you don't even know where you're going because you're just following your feelings, you're just following your passions. But like freedom comes in acting on the will, like, okay, here's a situation, and I am free to choose. Okay, let's talk about chastity. Like I am free to choose to go with my passions at this moment because the situation is right, my spouse is ready, and all things are a go, and we can go and be passionate. Or we need to put on the brakes, we need to pause, we need to hold off on this for a bit because of XYZ, like whatever the reasons may be, that's freedom because you were able to be like in control and choose. But we see so much of freedom to just go with our feelings, and like that, like that's that is slavery because you look back and you're like, How did I even get here? I wanted none of this.
SPEAKER_00Like, right. And I think the danger though, it sounds because it could it could also sound like we're saying you just have to not act on any anything. And anything that you could you you discern is is, you know, against you know, whatever you you and your spouse's side, or whatever area of your life you feel like, well, if I exercise this virtue, it means I can't do this, I can't do this, I can't do this. And it sounds like you're gonna live a life of like neurosis, of just constantly like, well, what I when am I I can't do anything. Um, but like it's you you have your life under under control of your will versus your passions is one thing. Um, but as Catholics, like there's also the infusion of grace that that St. Thomas Aquinas says like elevates those those virtues to a different degree.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and I think that that's like we've I we've said this in other things, uh other episodes too, but like you having to pray for those virtues and growth in those virtues is so important too. Yes. So it can't just be like, yes, you do the act, you act, you exercise your will and you you act out those virtues, yes, but then you also pray for an increase in those virtues so that you can continue to build because this isn't a thing that changes overnight, like this is years of building to even to be get to the point that we are right now. Like, this isn't it doesn't happen right away, right? And it doesn't happen just by our own willpower, but it's it's our will in cooperation with God's grace.
SPEAKER_03Because
God's desire for your marriage
SPEAKER_03like you have to remember that like God wants your marriage to be good and holy, like He wants you to be happy, holy, and healthy. That's his desire for marriage. Marriage is good, like marriage was talking about happy, okay.
SPEAKER_00Well you're talking about happiness at different times.
SPEAKER_03That's okay, sorry. So, but like like marriage was created at the be like it was part of the beginning of creation. So, like it marriage is very good. Like man and woman being together is very good. And like if God feels like it's very good, he's going to provide the tools and the grace and the support to help you have a good, a very good marriage. Um okay, so happiness it might not always feel happy and good. But happy is a feeling, yes, okay, yes, but like to to bring your desires for a very good marriage to God and ask him for the infusion of grace in the areas where you are falling short, like he will answer those prayers.
SPEAKER_00Right. And you have to continually go though, like um, and one thing I don't know if we mentioned this in a different episode, but like last thing is reading another book by Sherry Waddell, learning the idea of like grace not being active as someone who doesn't have a faith in Jesus Christ. I totally forgot about that and like never really thought about it. But like if if like a couple is struggling and a couple's praying and still feels like they're struggling with the virtues, um, I would say that one thing they have to ask each other and talk to each other about is like where is their faith in Jesus? Because like one person might be all in, like Jesus is my Lord and Savior, He's my whole life, and and you know everything is founded on him. The other person might be like, Well, I think Jesus is a nice person, and like not fully have accepted Jesus into their lives, like that makes a difference because that person doesn't have that sanctifying grace working in them because they don't really acknowledge it or want it. So like the actual grace is there that they could respond to Christ's call, but that's it. So like that's something that you and your spouses have to have also discuss. Like, are you are you on the same page with your faith? And is your faith in Jesus beyond just like this, you know, I go to mass and therefore everything needs to be fixed? Like, no, he he wants all of it. Like the the vital dynamism in your life that is going to make your chastity work and your marriage work is your faith in Jesus Christ and in the Holy Spirit working in your in your lives. Like, if that's not what you're founded on, all of this is kind of pointless. Like, then it's just your willpower, and that's only gonna take you so far.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. That was a lot.
SPEAKER_00That was a lot. That was a lot, a lot of analogies.
SPEAKER_03A lot of a lot of analogies, a lot of dad jokes, a lot of throwbacks. Um but guys, just um thank you so much for like for tuning in and listening because these like I hope that I hope that you can see as these conversations unfold that this is this is an ongoing this is an ongoing adventure here with even within our marriage. That like your desire for a very good marriage is a really great place to start. And that like bring like bring these things to conversation, bring these things to prayer, um, keep talking about them. Don't run away from the hard stuff because like running away from the hard stuff doesn't make anything get better. Um But like, yeah, lean lean into that grace offered to you through the sacrament, lean into that grace of the sacrament, um, lean into one another, have these, have these conversations, dive into these things, um, and and and work on this together. Work on these virtues together, particularly obviously the virtue of chastity. Um, and guys, reach out to us, like know that we're praying for you and we're rooting for you, and we would love to answer like any questions that you have or concerns or like I don't get this, how do you live this out? Um, reach out, we would love to connect. And uh thanks for see you at the next episode. Thank you all so much for listening. We're so glad you're joining us. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the podcast and leave us a review. We're so grateful for your encouragement and ask that you prayerfully consider becoming a podcast patron. Your financial support can help us keep projects like this podcast going. Visit patreon.com slash to become family to become a monthly donor or buymeacoffee.com slash to become family for a one-time donation. Links are in the show notes. We'd also love to connect with you on Instagram at to become family. Let us know what you would ask if you had pre-Cana with the Pope. See you at the next episode.