Why All The Sex Rules?

This is the last episode of year ONE of Pre-Cana with the Pope! In today's episode, we discuss the Catholic Church's rules about sex. We start laying the foundation of what the Church teaches, why it teaches what it does, and how it changes our married life. Let's jump in!

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SPEAKER_04 0:04

You're listening to Pre Canaan with the Pope, a podcast aimed at restoring confidence in marriage and family life.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Hey there everyone, this is Monica and welcome to the final episode of year one of Pre Canaan with the Pope. In today's episode, we discuss many of the church's rules about sex. Together we talk about the true fullness of the act, ways that can sell ourselves and one another short, and how both our bodies and our sacrament are gifts to one another. We're so happy you're here with us to kick off year two. Let's jump in.

SPEAKER_04 0:47

Alright, mic check, mic check.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Mic check, mic check.

SPEAKER_04 0:49

Remember to speak with a loud booming voice that you're known for.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

I'm hopefully ready.

SPEAKER_04 0:54

Oh, I hope we don't pick up the wind.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

It is very windy around here today.

SPEAKER_04 0:59

Alice in Wonderland. Nope, that's not which one's the one? Matilda.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

I don't know what you're saying. Oh, yes. Yes. Wizard of Oz. Dorothy Day.

SPEAKER_04 1:09

I'm just kidding. That's not I Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

But the the nationwide polar vortex is heading up to New England right now.

SPEAKER_04 1:16

Yeah. Oh.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

It was in Texas.

SPEAKER_04 1:18

I I knew the names of all the different stories. Sure. I was being silly. I'm not an idiot. I just play one on TV.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Sorry. Typecast. You just got stuck.

SPEAKER_04 1:37

Alright, so this is this is a special episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

It is.

SPEAKER_04 1:41

This is the last episode we are recording. Well, maybe. Because I have that idea, but we don't have to talk about the idea here. I don't did you share this idea with that. Yeah, the one I want to try to do a live episode.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:52

But like I should have spent some time today looking at that. Like the ins and outs of that. Nope. Um, but this is a special episode because this is the last episode we're recording in the year since we started the podcast. Because we launched on Valentine's Day last year.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:08

And then we already recorded our Valentine's Day episode with a special guest that we will announce later this week after you guys hear this.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

I'm so excited. But yeah, this is the yeah, the final episode of our inaugural year of pre-Kenon with the Pope.

SPEAKER_04 2:21

Yeah. And we did it once one every week. We'll see.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

We might bomb and just be like we're sitting here recording, so it happened. We recorded every week for a year. I didn't say it was gonna be good. I just said we did it. We did it. It showed up.

SPEAKER_04 2:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

I think that was the thing we were most worried about.

SPEAKER_04 2:39

Uh I don't know about worried. That was the hardest thing. The hardest thing that I researched about before we even launched this thing was um like experts were saying that like the biggest thing is you have to be consistent. Yeah. That that there's a thing called pod fade after like 14-15 episodes. Like, if you're not getting that the big the big push and the lot of listeners and odd interaction, there's this temptation to just give up. Um little do they know that I have that temptation about this every single day. So yes, it just had to persevere, just push through.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

Just had to have a type A wife who says it's on the schedule. So we gotta do it. Here we are. We are show up.

SPEAKER_04 3:16

So we we we fought the pod fade, so we're still doing it.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

Yeah, episode 54.

SPEAKER_04 3:21

Yeah, and our our most interesting, not interesting, the the topics that are listened to the absolute most.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

Yes, the episodes that have the most downloads are any episode regarding sex.

SPEAKER_04 3:32

Those are the ones that are just downloaded away. Clickbait. Not even not being.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

No, I think they have substance.

SPEAKER_04 3:38

No, I try to clickbait with the other titles, but but with those, it's like, yeah, we're talking about sex again. Ian people listen. Um, and so I I thought for the last episode we should we should do another sex episode. Um, but the direction I think we should take it in, this is where my brain is. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

I'm a little I'm a little nervous, but I'm I'm here.

SPEAKER_04 4:00

Don't be trust me. I do it's a trustfall of an episode. Um the there are so many thoughts I have about sex and the way they don't stop coming, and I don't know what to do about them.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

That's not a surprise.

SPEAKER_04 4:14

They're just swirling. No, no, no, it's not the thoughts. Uh well, no, I am having thoughts. Um no, because there are I think that there's there's so many like different boxes to put this in. I'm trying to I want to articulate this well so I don't sound as dumb with the like the Dorothy, Matilda, like I was I was joking. Um time to put my intellectual hat on. The there are so like for you and I, for example, and I think people who are in Catholic are live in the Catholic world somehow, whether it be through social media or like they're actually tapped into a parish who does that anymore, but like they're tapped into parish life and they actually live a Catholic life. I think there's an assumption that people know what the church teaches, right? Like, oh yeah, no, you've heard you must have heard that before. And uh because we we work in with secular people, I think it's very obvious that like no, some people still don't know. So, like you would assume, and I think most of us would assume that if somebody was somewhat involved in youth ministry or anything in the last 10, 20 years, like they should know something about chastity or something about what the church teaches. Um, and the reality is that from being in so many of these Facebook groups that people have no idea what the church teaches. Like that it's and and you see, and because of that, there's struggles that we can't speak to because we're assuming that there's a base of knowledge there about what the church teaches. So, like we'll get into this later in the episode. But for example, if we read in one of the one of the Facebook groups, or if we have um couples come to us directly and they're and they say something to to the effect of like, um, you know, are my my husband is angry because I don't want to have sex with him all the time.

unknown 6:00

Right?

SPEAKER_04 6:01

If he says something, if they it's just something as simple as that. Like my husband's husband's angry and he's frustrated about sex, and I'm frustrated about sex, and I'm frustrated with him, and you know, do I have to have sex with him? And then that's just one of the things like well that there's a thing the church teaches, but they have no idea. Um, or um uh my husband, my sorry, sorry for the husbands, but like that it I feel bad for saying it. Sorry, like it's these are husband related, but most of the things are. Um, but another one being uh my husband says that if I don't have sex with him, he can't control himself, so therefore he has to look at porn. And like, is that okay? And there's like you and I would be like, is is that okay? Like, but no, they're there they're legitimately asking that because they don't have any base or foundation on what the church actually teaches about any of these things. And I think because um, because we don't acknowledge that there's like there's a discrepancy on like what people know and what they don't know, um, we have a lot of us in this Catholic world where speaking at at a very high level about things, about NFP and like, oh, you know, you know, how how long is it okay to avoid? And and and we speak very high level when like people are are all they see is the church is like rules. They have all these rules and I don't understand them, and I don't know why they do it. They're all very prude, except somehow when they're married, they end up having a lot of kids, so they become anti-prude, and like there's that's all they really know. Um, so I I was hoping we can kind of bridge the gap with the episode today and kind of talk about everything.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 7:30

What do you think of that?

SPEAKER_02 7:32

I'm ready. Well, yeah, I uh you know it's interesting because you were saying the point about um like if people had spent any time in like youth ministry or young adult ministry and things like that, but then I think about what we talk about in youth ministry now is not what we heard in our youth ministry, which also wasn't like all that in-depth or gave us a whole lot, but because I think there's so much going on in like our culture and everyone wants to be very PC that we don't touch some of these topics anymore either, because there are so many more ways to offend people. And so I think I think about the kids in our youth group, and there's a few that listen, so you're welcome. Sorry guys, I don't know what you're about to listen to, but we don't talk about this at youth group anymore. And then therefore they go to college and you know, they're not living under the roof of their parents who were trying to kind of shelter them a little bit or whatnot, and then they experienced college life where everything is much more available to them without the the boundaries or the you know sexual morality teachings and and and what they see and what they think of. And yeah, I mean, even us at the very beginning of our marriage had a little bit of this that there was just a lot of yeses and no's and then not really like an understanding of the whys. Um, or even what exactly are the yeses and no's, or where is that okay, so here's the yes, here's the no, but what does that look like in practice? What does that look like in our relationship?

SPEAKER_04 9:14

Right. Cause I feel like at least so at least I know that some of the seniors, maybe not all of the seniors that, sorry, not seniors, they're they're freshmen in college now. Um, before they went to college, I definitely I know I pulled a few of them aside and I had very like, this is allowable, this is not allowable. You got questions, let me know. Um, and then in the past, and I think the boys have always they've always asked me questions. So I've at least had conversations with the boys. So majority of the boys we've had those conversations because um I it that's important to me because I didn't have our youth minister was a woman, so like have it she didn't pull me aside and talk to me about anything. So um oh I know so like I experienced yes, so okay, thank you. No, but like that, so I think uh but for yeah, for I think for the majority of the world, like outside of our our Catholic bubble who who has you know does First Friday devotions and all of the things, like they don't know what the church teaches still. And I think because we think, oh well, Jason Everett lived and did his thing, like doesn't everyone know now? Because Jason Everett was a great speaker, like no, people don't. Because because the limited amount of people that actually remember what people say at talks are are the ones are those of us that are in these doing these things, but everyone else doesn't know.

SPEAKER_02 10:28

Well, and even to that point, that was uh so Jason Everett spoke mostly about like chastity outside of marriage, like how do you live this chaste life, this pure life without having a spouse. So then now that you're married and you are and you are allowed to do stuff, air quote stuff, you don't know what stuff is allowable and what stuff's not allowable, or like in what context, or how is this supposed to happen? Because I mean, I remember even several years ago, a friend of ours who's I mean, quite like regular mass attending and was very serious about living out the sacramental life with her spouse didn't know that certain acts had to finish in a certain way. And when she learned it for the first time, was like, oh my goodness, how did I never why didn't no one ever tell me this? You know, so there's even people, I think, to your point that like if no one says it, then no one knows it.

SPEAKER_04 11:22

Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

So here we go, we're gonna say it.

SPEAKER_04 11:25

Right. Well, so I remember a struggle that we had was we we knew we were gonna get, or at least I decided. I think you knew, no, we both decided. We knew we were gonna get married as soon as we started dating. So imagine believing that with your whole heart as an 18 and 17-year-old, like, this is the person I'm gonna be with forever. So, like, as far as we knew, and this is and I'll I'm gonna jump to a couple of videos so you can react to them while splice them into the episode. But as far as we knew, the reason you don't have sex with everybody was because like you want to save yourself for that person you love. You want to be pure and and you wanna go pure into your relationship, you want to only have one one person and and save yourself for them. So we thought, like, well, if you're with that person, I met you already, yeah. Oh, look at me. So like that was such a hard tension that we had to in our dating relationship, and then as an engaged couple, like as an engaged couple, you're like, no, I already I just gotta I gotta wait for the money so it comes through and the flowers and everything, but like I'm I'm going to do it.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

Right, we are going to be married, so aren't we basically almost married?

SPEAKER_04 12:26

Right. And I didn't even realize, like, even us who were, hey, look, we're in the Catholic circle being youth ministers, this and that, like we didn't fully understand the church's teaching on sexuality. We just thought it was like, oh, just don't have sex. And like, and because it's a good thing you want to say for the person you love forever. Oh, okay, yeah, we can do that.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

Okay, I can buy that.

SPEAKER_04 12:44

But I bought but but I met her now. Is it is okay now? No, why? Because I'm not in high school, so like, oh, I I I make $15 an hour now. I wasn't making that before. Like, I could I could buy for some things. Um, so there was just a I I just remember that there was that there was that tension there. And then like there's and I think it's because of what you said, there's such a lack of let's actually talk about why the church teaches this. And by why I don't mean like let's give a history of sexual teaching and morality, but more of like let's get to the nuts and bolts of like this is what uh everything's intended for, these are why these acts don't fit in, but actually like give a back and forth rather than just like a a very vague, like just you know, just wait till you're in in the room together when you're married and everything's fine. So, but unfortunately, that is not how most people heard chastity talks um in high school or in middle school or whatever they heard them. Um maybe and this is not just for like our age millennials, but like this could have been the the generations prior to us. So I'm gonna have you listen to or watch a not watch the full video, but just see a short clip. Um and then and I want you to react to it. Um I'm gonna add the audio in so they can hear what you're gonna hear.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

So the next time that somebody wants you to go to bed with them, with or without a condom, then just picture that you're actually going to bed. It's not just you and him or you and her. It's that you're packing along a loaded revolver with you when you go. And not only that, when you go to bed with that person, you're not just going to bed with that person, you're going to bed with every other person that person has ever gone to bed with before in their life. So just picture it's as if you're all crawling into one bed together.

SPEAKER_04 14:23

What if I want to have sex before I get married?

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Well, I guess you just have to be prepared to die. Okay, so was that from 1971?

SPEAKER_02 14:34

What was that?

SPEAKER_04 14:36

That's from like the 80s. Yeah, it must have been the 80s.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

80s, early 90s. Her outfit said 80s. Yeah, maybe early 90s.

SPEAKER_04 14:43

Early 90s. But like that's what a lot of people believe that the church teaches.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:51

Right? Like, shame you into not because like you you you don't want to sleep around and be with all those people at once, and then like you're gonna get an S C D and die. And like that's what people heard.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

So to a certain extent, I I understand a little bit of that perspective of the multiple partners before marriage, because you do carry a certain level of baggage from your previous relationships into your into your marriage, right? And that I mean, people will share that like how do you overcome the thought of so-and-so being with somebody else, or how can I reassure my spouse that they are the most important, even though I had this experience before. So there is a certain level of like, yes, reserving yourself and saving yourself for your spouse is a very special gift that you get to give them because um they are the only ones that get to experience that that union with you. And that and I think that I think that we shouldn't just like throw out that whole message completely because I do think that you do need to consider what your previous experiences can bring into your mind. It's I mean it's with any level of like working on your healing and working on your past, like what you've done in the past, like plays a role in who you are today, right?

SPEAKER_04 16:18

So yeah, see, but it I and I I wholeheartedly disagree because I feel like that is I I understand that why it it tra it started that way in like the 90s, and it it that transitioned into what when we went to into into conferences, and this was that was like early 2000s. Um and like the way Jason Everett would put it was like um imagine you know, like how far is too far, and then he'd be like, Well, imagine your your future wife is with this guy right now and they're going to think how far is too far for them to go. And I and I get because like the rule that that is a way of illustrating that the rule is like, hey, it's best if you don't, but that doesn't to in my mind, it doesn't address the actual sexual desire. Right. So then so all you get is a no, and then you bring that into marriage of like, all right, but now I have this desire. Okay, so it's a no, so I just to treat it as a no. But like you never actually have to deal with like, why do you want to be with this person? Why do you want to have sex? Why do you just want to fool around? Like, isn't she your best friend? Like, you're not made to ask any hard questions, you're just told, like, no, don't do it. And I and that's why I I think that we've set ourselves up to still have dysfunctional marriages now, because that's how we that's how we dress it with kids.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

I mean, and that I we saw that in our marriage, like the transition of like now we're suddenly allowed to do all the things that we wanted to do, and even some of the things that we shouldn't have done but did do, and we're confession for, but now we don't have to go to confession for them. And like, right, how does how how can I reconcile that feeling of guilt and now I don't need to feel guilty anymore? And that was really hard for us to navigate um early on in our marriage.

SPEAKER_04 17:54

And I know that late in later he in the I'm speaking of J Sandford just because he's the He's probably the most popular Catholic chastity speaker. Um, but I remember towards the end of like he still does it now, but like the latest talk I heard, and this is when we were already like five years into marriage, and we we brought a group there, his talk was very different. Like he didn't do that anymore. Now it was about like let's talk about the heart, let's talk about virtue, let's yeah, and which is like, oh yeah, that's where we should be going.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Well, and what's interesting is now like at that point Jason was married and had probably different experiences and was like, oh shoot, that may have even been some of the things that he needed to work on, you know, in his own life, and now I can speak to that.

SPEAKER_04 18:35

And we trust like that God did what he needed to do with with the with yeah, you know, what with what the gifts he was using. Um, but I I think that acknowledging that sexual desire has a purpose and uh in that like your heart wants, desires things, and and I just think that that's just changes things.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Well, even one of the questions that we had gotten, we posted on Instagram saying we were gonna be talking about this. Is there any like questions or or um like myths that you want to like dispel or like things that you want addressed or clarified? And one of them was um like how to deal with sexual arousal when you're not married. Or like how or like how to how to turn off sexual arousal or something something to that effect. And yeah, like I think that there's a very um I think that there's a lot of confusion between sexual arousal and then like your behaviors and what you're saying practice of virtue and where do I put the where do I put these feelings and and how can I classify these feelings of arousal and classify these feelings of desire and wanting to be with another person.

SPEAKER_04 19:48

Right. And so so I'm in the process of writing a um a short uh book for young men to try to break free from porn, and one and uh it's like a it's gonna be like a 30-day thing. They have to do one one thing a day, one reflection a day. One of the reflections what I focused on was sexual desire. Um and I I tried to make the point that that sexual desire has a purpose and that it it tells you something. Um and what it tells you, and this is like and trying to I'm trying to fit all of theology of body in like a paragraph, right? But the idea is that sexual desire tells you something. It tells you that you were made to to fulfill that sexual desire in some way. What is the way that's allowable in our faith to fill it is within a within your marriage. So you the sexual desire, even if you're not married, is telling you that that you are made for that, like you are made for that relationship so that you can give yourself completely to another and they can give you you'll be given completely to you. And then on top of that, what is the purpose of marriage? To be a reflection of the Holy Trinity. Um, and where are all your desires ultimately filled in the relationship with the Holy Trinity? So your sexual desire, whether you're dating, engaged, married, you know, you're abstaining, should first be a reminder that we are made for a relationship with God. And I know that's kind of a hard leap to like remind yourself of, but like that's that is the natural conclusion of where these desires should lead us. Is that like you're ultimately looking for a relationship with the Lord, not with your spouse. Though that's where it seems like, oh, this is the release I need. But like for the for the little thing I'm writing, like, well, the release they think is important, and like that's not where your sexual desires are for. Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

That's probably the the least Nor is your marriage the place for the release of that desire. Right. It's the fulfillment of that desire, right?

SPEAKER_04 21:30

Yes. It in in when it becomes part of the reflection of the Trinity.

SPEAKER_03 21:36

Right.

SPEAKER_04 21:37

And that's only happens when it's selfless. Yeah. So like, um, so let's just try to answer questions. I don't even know how this is gonna like the narrative this is gonna paint. We're not gonna, I don't know if we were I thought we were gonna like build and scaffold to like a higher question, but um, and so I have a question for you.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 21:52

Because we are a podcast land. So I have a question for you. Um, do you think it's allowable for one spouse to ain' to desire Sex from their spouse. So the husband desires sex for uh from his wife. Um and when they're having sex, it's he's thinking of other women. No. Is that okay? No. No. Why?

SPEAKER_02 22:13

Because the vice versa, too like husband, wife, wife, husband. Right. No, that isn't allowable. That's not moral because the act of sex is supposed to be the union of the two spouses. So the focus should be the self-gift to the other and receiving the gift of their beloved in exchange. Not in exchange, but like together. That's happening simultaneously. Right.

SPEAKER_04 22:39

And I to again, like the way you answered it is very like, of course not, but like, no, not everyone knows this. Right. Like some people do believe, like, I'm with this person. Why does it matter that I'm a I'm thinking of somebody else, right? Like I'm it doesn't matter. I'm not cheating on them, I'm with this person. But the idea is that like if you are giving gifts, if you are if you you're receiving gifts and giving to each other, right? You need to be present.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Right.

SPEAKER_04 23:02

Like you need to be this present. I'm a genius.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

But yeah, and and like if you really, like you're saying, kind of pair back and get to the root of the problem of that situation, is that then you are using your spouse, you are using a person for something else. So you're using their body to imagine a different situation, to imagine a scenario that's not actually real.

SPEAKER_04 23:29

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:30

And yeah, that is, I would say that's like a pretty slippery slope to like where else could that lead? If this is if we're okay with this situation, or if one is okay with this situation, then where could that go?

SPEAKER_04 23:43

Right. So then and then so maybe it's not that bad. Maybe they're not envisioning another person, but um, they are they're desiring to have sex just for the sake of having sex. So it's not like I it's not like the spouse is like, oh, I the husband's like, I desire to be with my wife, but just like I just desire to, I just want to have sex right now.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

The physical feeling.

SPEAKER_04 24:03

Right, just want to, yeah, physically I I need to release, I just want to have sex. Is that allowable?

SPEAKER_02 24:10

Also, no.

SPEAKER_04 24:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

For similar reasons, I feel like that still boils down to the use of the other person for physical release. I would also even say that for like a stress release or like a some sort of psychological release too, that like I'm pent up energy or stress, or um, and I would say too, I I could I I know that you're saying a lot with husbands, and I think sometimes wives could use sex for affirmation, or I want to feel desired, so I want to, you know, and and again, that core desire for that intimacy, for that sex is not for that self-gift and the receiving of the fullness of my spouse. Yeah, no. I'm just spoiling it. Like I'm just um I'm compartmentalizing and only choosing sex for like this one reason. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:02

I the reason I say I just think it'd be weird if I was like, if the wife desires, and people think like she's accusing.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Okay, so I'm gonna insert some things then.

SPEAKER_04 25:10

That's inappropriate. That is not allowable. No, um I might cut that part out. Um so no, so so Aquinas would uh St. Thomas Aquinas would would agree on both those counts. Um the first one where the where the spot with the husband is um is engaging with his wife in imagining other people or engaging with wife as though she were another person. That he would he said that he says that's a mortal sin. Um and then the second one with he's just just to have sex, you know, it doesn't matter what woman it is, but like it's my spouse and I just want to have sex, he says that's a venial sin. So not not to the full-blown mortal sin because like he is imagining another woman, he's just seeking the the um, I guess the outlet of sex. Um, but it's still a sin. And it's funny because I first read venial sin, I was like, man, why isn't he calling that a mortal sin? But I also think a lot of us are desensitized to venial sins because these are all the theories I have about my life, but I think for a majority of us, because sexual sin is such a big deal, especially in teenage years, I I know that for most young men, all they're dealing with from the age of 13 to 27 is like, I don't want to look like porn anymore. So that's all they're focused on. So that mortal sin is the only thing that they're focused on. But they don't realize like we are called to be holy, we are called to love better. And you don't want to just be like, well, I'm just like, and and I this is something I like in our marriage and all the other stuff, like I don't want to just not punch you in the face. Like I want to show you I love you. Yeah, and like that's the venial sins that we have to wear away of our lives.

SPEAKER_02 26:45

Like you're settling for like a lesser right.

SPEAKER_04 26:47

But the it's a lesser love. Yeah, right. So like venially us venially sinning is not a good, it's not a good, it's still a sin. Right. It's still something that that's it maybe doesn't cut off our relationship like mortal sin does, but it still damages our relationship and makes us weaker and more susceptible to mortal sin.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Because you can rationalize and be like, well, I want to have sex with my husband. What could be wrong with that? But it's like, okay, but why do you want to have sex with your husband? So the like I that that again, that larger like umbrella desire is good, but is it the ults like is it the ultimate good for your marriage or is it a is it lesser, right? And um, and I think that's so hard for us because we again we feel like there's so many like no no no no no's that well this is the yes, right? Isn't that the yes? I'm allowed to do this now, right? And and because we're because we're like wounded people and we're a little bit crooked and backwards, that because we're pointing somewhat in the right direction, we're like, okay, I got it now. Here, like I'm on the I'm on the okay path, but you're like, no, not exactly. Think again. Yeah, well, and and then you're like, oh shoot, this is even harder. But but like think about it because isn't that what you want from your spouse? Is like their their full desire for sexual intimacy, not just the physical part of it, or not just the psychological affirmation, or not just the like don't you want isn't that what you would ultimately desire to be coming to you? And then that's what you should be aiming to be giving as well.

SPEAKER_04 28:31

Yeah, I think if we were to say pull aside from any other so like if we like put sex to the side for a second, and if we use any other type of relationship or anything, any other type of thing that we're trying to do, like we we try to do our best. It so like say it's just parenting, for example. Like we we we want to do our best with the kids, like we know we're not gonna be perfect parents, but we at least are gonna strive to do things as perfect as we can. Um, and even that, like, there's a lot of like there's touchy, like, but I think anything that that makes us feel bad and guilty, we immediately like, no, I I can never be perfect, stop putting me on that standard. And like, and that's where our understanding of how grace works is inhibiting our ability to strive for perfection. Because we we see, and I saw a Protestant preacher said this like we see grace and effort as not able to live together. Like a lot of us think that like by God's grace means that like He's just gonna do all the work for me. Yeah, and like, no, dummy, like you have to also strive for this. Like it this is a it's a both and yes, like it's his grace that's going to give you the ump to do it, but like you still have to strive. And we think that, like, no, no, no, I grace is like God's grace is gonna protect everything, he's gonna save everything, like, God's gonna take care of this, but like, no, he's just not gonna make your love grow just because you wish it. Yeah, like no, it takes effort. So part of the effort is like, all right, how am I desiring my spouse and doing that inner work? Right. Um, but we a lot like and I know I made a joke with you earlier like chastity talk, but a lot of how the church has preached its its different teachings and rules has been in a way of like you need to follow this because this is what God says. Instead of like, this is what your heart, this, these rules are what your heart desires. This is gonna help you reach your full humanity. Like we we have not presented it that way.

SPEAKER_03 30:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

Well, and and I know that I've used this phrase before and it's it's obviously not original to me, but it requires our cooperation. We need to cooperate with the sacramental grace of our marriage. And like that's the mind-blowing thing about like when you talk about the the church, our perception of the church's rules around sex, like but in the act of the sacrament of marriage, in having sex with your spouse, that is where grace is infused when done to its full intent. Like when we are exchanging our full selves, like that's where grace is infused into our into our marriage. Like it is a grace-filled act. And like, yeah, we we get to cooperate or we get to turn off and like shut doors to grace by the way we enter into that into that act. And it's just so wild to me because it's like the same it's like the same outside external behavior, but it's the interior cooperation or rejection that um that opens or shuts the doors of grace.

SPEAKER_04 31:35

Yeah, I would recommend before Father Mike gets to it, uh, read Catechism. Uh it's paragraph 1999, and I think it goes like to 2010, 2020, maybe. But like read through I would I did this earlier this week, but like just sit down and just read what the church teaches on grace and what it teaches on merit, and just think about how that how that shows itself in your life, because um like we we gain a lot by going to the sacraments and so like so and this is back to the venial sin thing, because like there's a lot of things I'm sure we do within our lives that are venial sins that we're we're not aware of, and as you become aware of it, it shouldn't be a distressing thing of like, oh geez, I can't do that either. Like, no, like this is how you're supposed to be perfected so that you can give yourself more fully to the to your beloved.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

Um, and a lot of a lot of our venial sins are it's it's like called missing the mark. So you're a lot of the times we're aiming, like we're trying to do the right thing. We're just missing the the bullseye. And so becoming aware of some of our venial sins, a lot like it gives us the opportunity to straighten up a bit to to reach the goal that we we were actually trying to reach, we just weren't doing it very well. Um, and so I think sometimes too, like calling out these areas that we may not have been aware of before allows us to get to where we're where we want to go. Again, it takes stinks sometimes because it takes a little bit more work or more effort. And it also takes a little bit more surrender of like, oh shoot, I was trying to do it right myself the whole time, and I actually needed your help. So it does require a little bit of humility as well to to invite God into the things we were trying to do ourselves.

SPEAKER_04 33:24

Right. Um, I think one of the things that we get asked a lot, we also see posted on these different Facebook groups that we're in, um, is just asking why the church teaches what it teaches about about sex within marriage. Um and for those of you that don't know what it tea what the church teaches about sex within what the church teaches about sex within marriage, or one of the things that it teaches is that anytime a couple is engaging in any sexual acts, it has to end with intercourse. Um, it can't stop early. You can't, you know, if you're playing the bases, you can't just stop at uh second, third base, like you know what you gotta go home, even if even if the catcher's got the ball, you gotta go through. Um, and that's part of what the church teaches. And that seems very strict even to faithful Catholics who are trying to do NFP because they're like, okay, we we are avoiding, we've discerned that it's not time to have a baby yet, but we also still want to be intimate with our spouse. Why can't we just do some of the things? Again, similar to like when we were engaged, like we we we love each other, it's not like I'm not committed, right? This is one way to show that this is the person that I'm with for the rest of my life, and I was pure with them, and now we're that we're then in marriage, we can do whatever we want. And the churches it has been very clear that no, you have to you have to have intercourse.

SPEAKER_02 34:40

And so like those other acts, those like a lot of people would categorize those as foreplay acts. Like a lot of those acts have to, like they can't end with just foreplay, they have to end with sex.

SPEAKER_04 34:53

And I think that's one of the I I think that's that's something that people are still very having a hard time about, even after being Catholic and and being committed to it. Um and I think a big reason for that is because a lot of Protestant sexual teachings, sexual morality from Protestantism has has really creeped its way into Catholic um sexual morality. Um and because in if you're Catholic, that that's what the church says, like you know, you have to end with sex, but if you're Protestant, um everything's like you're allowed to have um contraception, for example, you're allowed to do all the other things that you want to do. You don't have to end with sex. Um and that's just that's a big contrasting difference. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

Um I think it could I think it goes back to that last question that we were answering is to like what is what is your ultimate aim here? What is your ultimate goal? And while a lot of those, a lot of those choices and a lot of those behaviors I I mean they they feel well, they feel good, yeah, they feel good, but like they they emotionally feel good too, because you feel like you are connecting with your spouse, you're being very intimate, you're being very vulnerable with one another. So you feel like you can rationalize that this this must be good because my spouse feels good, I feel good, we feel connected.

SPEAKER_04 36:15

Um Right, this is very intimate, this could be very romantic.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Exactly. Right.

SPEAKER_04 36:19

Like we're not saying that whatever is happening is is is uh dirty and gross and exact and and selfish. Like that that's not what we're saying.

SPEAKER_02 36:26

Right. But what the church's the church's teaching on marriage, no, I don't want to keep saying the word teaching, but like Don't worry, I'm gonna get super heady in a little bit. Well, but the design for marriage and the design for sex is to give fully, like completely, and those acts still hold something back. And and again, that may not be your intent in your like that might not be your full intent, but to if you really look on like look honestly at that, it it really is like I am holding something back. It might be my fertility, it might be my um like just that that complete total intimacy. Like, here is my entire gift. And if and we get to the root of it, it really does when you end in that behavior, it's it's for the pleasure of the physical act. And that the pleasure of that physical act does bring about emotional connection and emotional intimacy, but um it just it misses the mark of what you're aiming for. And if you're aiming for like that complete total emotional intimacy, you haven't reached it by by withholding sex at the end.

SPEAKER_04 37:46

Yeah. Um and I might I I might cut this out of this as to pie in the sky, but um what's uh an important um distinction with from the Protestant perspective and the Catholic is that uh for for us, for Catholics, our faith is built on um natural law or what people call like natural law theory versus Protestants, like not necessarily some Protestant denominations uh subscribe to natural law, others is just very Bible alone wherever's in the Bible, and it doesn't say that you can't do these things in the Bible, so therefore it doesn't matter. Um, and it's not it's not a sin, it's not it doesn't go against uh Christianity. Whereas for for Catholics, we believe that we could know what's moral based on natural law. So like there's there's ways that we could use our reason. We believe that we have reason and will, and that we could look at things and be like, is this being used the way it ought to be used?

SPEAKER_02 38:39

So in a in a very like the way it was naturally created to do to act, to behave.

SPEAKER_04 38:44

Right. So like because we believe that you know God in his in his all-no intelligence has put those things in us besides our reason and will, like our ability to like deduce like what is Yeah, like we can look at things and and see how they're naturally supposed to work. Right. So like in and beginning with like our morality, like how we ought to treat one another, um, but then even just like sexual morality, like we could we can see that like the yes, you could stimulate parts of your body for certain reasons, um, and they those could be intimate things, but that's not what it was made for. Um, so what it's in using a thing for what it's made for for what God intended it to be made for is the perfection of that thing. So you should therefore be trying to use that thing in the way it was created to be used. And it sounds super basic and like, oh, that that's it's hard because like that doesn't sound super uh groundbreaking. Yeah. The problem is that if the if if our bodies were were created with an intent to intent to be used a certain way, everything else is a misuse, even if it derives pleasure from it. And we can we know that from other things in our lives that we can get pleasure from that we know are a misuse of a thing. So, like you like, yes, drinking not in moderation, like okay, that's a misuse of the thing, like eating too much food, that's a misuse of a thing. Um, exposing yourself to too much sun, that's a misuse of a thing. Like you either we know we can misuse things, and there's ways that we're supposed to use it. Um, but the problem with sex is or anything sexual is that because we derive some sort of pleasure from it, we're like, no, no, no, this is always good. Um, but it's not. So you if you frame it from a natural law perspective, like you are misusing your spouse, your spouse is misusing you. Even with your consent, you are still being misused. And the word use is very important in that because you're not being loved. As much as like what I feel loved, that doesn't mean that you are being loved. Like, I my my child can a child who doesn't understand what real love is can feel like, oh, neglect is love. But no, that's actually neglect. You don't realize that's misuse. Um, and that's what what is actually happening when we don't fully engage in what the act was meant to be.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

Well, and that's the the added piece of the natural law of sexual morality versus you know, a lot again, you like the misuse of our body for different things is that it involves intimately another person too. So it's not just a misuse of our own body, but of others. I I loved it, it was so again, it's so basic, but um one of our priest friends, one of our priest friends gives a talk on sexual morality, and he shared to to identify to point out um the natural law of of our reproductive system is that the rest of our body works the way it works. The systems are all in interconnected within ourselves, but our reproductive system is the only system in our body that is not complete without the other. Um, and so that points to the union of spouses, like it points to this was made for something, for someone else. Um and so, but I have a question for you then. So if those other acts, those other behaviors, um, like those those things for foreplay, are those allowable in marriage as long you're saying that it's allowable as long as it ends in sex. Why? Like, why should shouldn't we just go from like kissing to sex then?

SPEAKER_04 42:08

So that's a that's super uh that is a super hot topic and super super debated. Um so how do I do this without without with keeping it here? Um okay, so to the full question being like, and are you even allowed to do foreplay?

SPEAKER_03 42:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:27

Right? Are you or do you have to just kiss and then you just just do intercourse? Um and a lot of people who believe that, so like that you have a lot of schools of thought in in Catholicism. Um, and this is another problem why we have such a hard time evangelizing the world, because like you can't even get Catholics that agree with one another. Because like imagine you're you're you're someone who's uh I'm interested in the faith. Let me look into the window and you see mom and dad fighting, like, I don't want to be here. Like no one agrees on anything, everyone's upset with each other. Um, but lo and behold, here we are trying to do a podcast. Um, the the two different camps um in Catholicism is is one camp believes and believes that that all you can do is kiss. Um I and and that's it. Like there's no uh I don't know if this requires an explicit tag, but like you know, no using your hands, no using any other parts of your body, like you just kiss and then you go right into intercourse. And then there's the other camp that believes in the one thing principle. Um, that I think doc most popularly in this time is um known from Dr. Gregory Popchak in his book Holy Sex, he talks about how you know what the church teaches that it's allowable to do, to kiss, do all the things, um, as long as it doesn't ingrade your spouse. So as long as your spouse does not feel degraded by the acts that you're doing, um you can do all the things as long as it ends with intercourse. Um, so that those are the two camps. One says you can do everything as long as it's intercourse, the other says you can't do the things, you just kiss and do intercourse, and that's it. Um, and from a moral field, Theology perspective, I think that is a much deeper conversation than we could really get into. What I would say though is that I believe in what Dr. Popchak says. Those acts aren't the same types of acts as if as if we were just doing them just on our own. Right.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

Isolating them.

SPEAKER_04 44:33

Just to isolate and just isolated and just to stimulate and just to be intimate, but not actually have to deal with the whole sex thing.

SPEAKER_02 44:40

In this one thing principle, this categorizes it puts all of those behaviors, all of those acts into one act. It's one act.

SPEAKER_04 44:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

So it's it's now one act. We're not separating them into like step one, step two. Like it is one, it is one continuous act. Yes. And that culminates in in intercourse.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 44:59

Right. And I think, and I think we um, I think often too, we, at least as millennials coming from if we did have these chastity talks and these purity, this there is some level of purity culture that influences our perception of these acts sometimes, and we might feel uncomfortable with them, we might feel like they're dirty. And I guess I just want to encourage spouses that if those might be some of their like hangups or their feelings about some of these acts, it's the again, that fullness of the gift of one another and the and the the change that you have undergone, that you are now one flesh, that your spouse's body is a is good. And that again, we were talking about it is it is intimate to explore that and to to know that and to be like intimately connected with your spouse. Um so that it it's not a dirty behavior, like it's not a dirty act, because it is participating in that fullness of the one of the one act of giving and receiving of ourselves to one another.

SPEAKER_04 46:09

Yeah, and I think it's also important to note though that if you and like I and I'm not to call out our protestant brothers and sisters, but like if you're if this is if it's allowable in your relationship to um be able to engage in foreplay and not have to have intercourse, right? Engage in all the different types of foreplay, um, there is a high likelihood that there's no chastity and no virtue in the sexual morality realm because like there's less there's no reason than to not do things. Yeah. Whereas like if you if all you if if you and I know and your spouses know that you as spouses know that like we can't do these things unless we're gonna have sex, and sex has consequences, yeah. And and we think they're great consequences, but there's still consequences that we have to discern. So if if a possibility of a child is always there, right, then all right, we have to discern. And so there's times where we be like, you know what, we can't do anything. And those are the hard times, but those are also the times that that build virtue. That's that's the part where the effort and grace are coming together. Because like, oh no, we're not we're not going to, and it's okay that we're not going to. Right. But if there's always like, well, especially for the man, if he's like, well, I just want a little release, is that okay?

SPEAKER_01 47:20

Right.

SPEAKER_04 47:20

No, it's not, because that's not that's not part of you growing in virtue and part of what this relationship is. That's that's part of using and misusing. Um, so I would I I would say that the full church teaching is that it's not just you can't do the thing because we want you to have a baby, yeah, but it's also you you can't do the thing because you're misusing this and your soul isn't growing in the virtue that it needs to grow so that you can get to heaven.

SPEAKER_02 47:43

Right. And I would I would even want this is me totally speculating, but like if all of those other things were allowable without having to finish in the one act, then do a lot of couples end up not having sex that much anymore because they can do all those other things. And then they're like removing that special that like that special grace-filled opportunity from their relationship.

SPEAKER_04 48:11

I I'd say yes, and also what I I've I've listened to other podcasts, uh Protestant podcasts that talk about this this topic. Um, they also use the foreplay as like as like rewards for one another for for like, oh you you did this great today, we're gonna do this. Like, oh, I'm glad right.

SPEAKER_03 48:31

Right.

SPEAKER_04 48:31

And like that's not again, let's misuse like yes, it feels intimate, and like it feels like, well no, I'm pleasuring my spouse and it's okay, but like no, you're not you're not engaging in the full one flesh union, like you're engaging in in a part of it, and like there's there's that's not what it's supposed to be for.

SPEAKER_02 48:47

Um, you're not supposed to use your body or your like your ability to be intimate with me as like a carrot. Like if you're really good today, you get to have all of this, you know, because then gosh, that just strips away so much from the fullness of it.

SPEAKER_04 49:07

And I think the same this same principle though that we're talking about is what also leads to the church's teaching on contraception. Um and like I I I hope I hope we're doing a good job of of portraying the church as not the lady that tells you if you're gonna have sex, you're gonna die. Because like it's not like it it is all like everything that the church teaches is ultimately for human flourishing. And that seems so backwards, but at the same time, like the people that say that sound that's backwards, because like like the church has so many rules. Listen, lady, you're a mom. You have rules, and like you have rules for your child for what reason, so that they can flourish. Like you try to create an environment around them, but it's not just like any old environment. Even if it's like, oh, I want my child to be free, you at least, if it's cold, you're gonna have them put a jacket on. Like just you have some sort of rules for their flourishing so that they could play outside for longer. So, like in the church being a good mother, God being a great father, like there's rules for us for our flourishing. And and this in sex, because it's such a big important part of our human flourishing, like I said earlier, it's supposed to reflect the Holy Trinity. There are these parameters so that we could engage in it the way we're supposed to. Um, and and so it's not just like Michael Scott, not just because it it feels different and we don't want it to feel different, and because you have to have a baby every time, like there's more that goes into why you can't use contraception or shouldn't use contraception. Do what you want freely, but like in freedom, you should not be using contraception.

SPEAKER_02 50:38

I think part of the reason why this um like the church, you the church says you shouldn't use contraception is such a hard, um, hard pill to swallow. Um, but like is so difficult for people to wrap their brains around is one because of poor sex ed in middle school and high school, or even understanding like the fullness of what it means to make a baby and how that works, because there are a lot of people who are are who don't believe that NFP and tracking your cycle could even work towards avoiding pregnancy because they don't really know how the female body works and how the man's body works. Um one thing that is nice though is that actually is becoming more popular in like sex not necessarily for avoiding, but like tracking cycles is becoming more popular.

SPEAKER_04 51:32

But it it is an that's a good thing and it isn't because it isn't. I think it's not a good thing because now you have people who feel like, oh, I could just Google. I could just Google and figure this out, I can figure this out, I can go out a couple YouTube videos. Right, and app's gonna tell me if it right. It like Siri can Siri's gonna track me.

SPEAKER_02 51:50

Alexa, am I ovulating today?

SPEAKER_04 51:52

Right, and like I think because of that there's gonna be some people that have that get pregnant, they're like, see, this doesn't work. Okay, but but but that that aside, like um, even before that though, I think specifically we should say like we the church does not want you using condoms as a way of avoiding um because you're like, well, and this is for both spouses, there's just like we want to have sex, but it's we we know because we're tracking we're fertile, so if we have sex, we're probably gonna have a baby right now. So why can't we just use a condom just to avoid so how would you answer just that? Like, why can't you use a condom?

SPEAKER_02 52:27

Yeah. Sorry, I got stuck on the pregnancy part. Um yeah, some people have a really hard time because they they have heard that the church teaches that sex is for two has two ends for sorry.

SPEAKER_04 52:42

Babies and bonding.

SPEAKER_02 52:43

Yes. So the church teaches that uh that sex has two ends for unity and for procreation. And a lot of people get hung up on that procreation, like the church says that we have to have so many kids and that doesn't seem reasonable or prudent, or you know, d does she even understand all the different situations that you know we as a couple live in and our society and all these things. Um but really what she's teaching is that you're that sex should be ordered toward procreation. Um, so that that could be the natural end to again going to like natural law, like this is this is naturally how your bodies work and and when you use them together, that's how that's what they're ordered towards, that's what they point towards. Um and using a condom, then going back to that to our last question, prevents offering the fullness of ourselves to our spouse because it's it's withholding something from one another. Right. And and when you speak when your body speaks that language that I'm giving everything to but then set can creep into so many other areas of your marriage as well. I give everything to you but five percent of my paycheck because that's my money, or I give everything but you know, Saturday evenings because that's for the guys. Like there's just always I give everything but and and when we're when we're having sex, like we are our bodies are speaking a language to one another in that in that intimate act, and when we bring in something else, or when we block something, then that's communicating something, even if we don't feel like we're saying that out loud, like there is something being held back, and what the church really is trying to bring you to is the fullness of self-gift entirely, and then again, it's the giving and the receiving of that full gift.

SPEAKER_04 55:00

And I think I think it's important to put it in context though, because even natural flame planning that's fairly new science. So like that wasn't always part of the church teaching, like that wasn't always part of the the the what the church was prescribing. So at one point was what the church wanted you to do is is have babies, and that's just the church, like this is this is uh the complete reframing of every child is a gift. And like we've talked about this in other podcast episodes, like yes, a child is a gift the way God gives gifts, so like it's not an easy gift, but the the idea that a child is a gift um would frame things in a way that like you don't why do you need NFP?

unknown 55:36

Right?

SPEAKER_04 55:36

Because like if a child is a gift, like you're literally, oh, you get to have a gift every nine, I don't know, whatever. Every two years you get to have a gift. Like, and and I know for for us now that seems like oh, that's very not sensitive for people who sh who you know maybe they they can't have too many. Like, I understand, and I'll get to the science part in a little bit, but at some point there was an NFP, and I think it's important that we acknowledge that so that we don't feel like NFP was God's way of it. No, no, NFP wasn't. NFP was a way of because we learn to understand our bodies more because we are growing and evolving as as as as humans, and like that's that's okay. Um in the same way that we have antibiotics, we have NFP. So that's my science point because there are some Catholic, there's some Catholic camps who do not like NFP because they feel like that goes against what the natural law says.

SPEAKER_02 56:17

Um it's putting too much control in.

SPEAKER_04 56:19

Yeah, too much control in our hands and aren't kids a gift, and you're supposed to be accepting gifts, yes. But also like reason and will, we can discern things. Um we can and then also science is part of our reason. Yes. Um, and as long as we're not misusing science to you know, but like it often unveils part of God's genius design. Right. Yeah, I think it always does. Yeah. Like when we're when you when okay, when ordered correctly, but like similar to like, oh, we would use antibiotics now, and that wasn't always a thing. So, like, because we have human ingenuity, but like, okay, so now we have ways of being able to track cycles so that we can discern. We should always have been discerning, but now we can discern when to be chaste and when when we can engage.

SPEAKER_02 57:01

Well, we're always chaste, but we no, no, you're fine.

SPEAKER_04 57:04

No, thank you for the correction. No, um, but now we can we can choose when if it's a if it's a good time to have sex, if our family's ready. Um, maybe couples earlier than us didn't have that option, but they also didn't have running water and toilet paper. So like there's there's just differences in the generations you're living. And I think like that's I guess that's my point is that like we're just living in a different time, and that's okay that we have these things and they didn't. Yeah, like it's not that God wasn't blessing them, it's just it was a very different time.

SPEAKER_02 57:32

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SPEAKER_04 58:56

So, like if you're a married person now asking, like, yes, children are gifts. Um, and for whatever reason you have to discern whether or not your family's ready, and that's that's okay. Um, but that doesn't mean that you should be using contraception as a way of of planning your family. Um you there are monitors now, there's so many more ways of learning NFP that I don't think it's it's that hard of a cell to be like, no, no, just don't use contraception, just use NFP. It you your body is naturally telling you things.

SPEAKER_02 59:26

Yeah. Well, the hard cell is the abstinence part.

SPEAKER_04 59:30

Yes, and I think that's important because like, no, yeah, because no one wants virtue because virtue is hard, and that's why we went through the whole rehabilitating chastity thing. Like, we just want to be able to have sex whenever we want, when we want it, because we want us just feel good, and like that's okay, you're you're now you're misusing your spouse again. We're back to that. Like, yes, you have to be able to say no at some point and be like, no, we shouldn't right now. Yes, and that's okay to say no, you're not gonna die. Umbust, I think.

SPEAKER_02 59:54

You're not gonna combust, yes.

SPEAKER_04 59:55

Yes, like in the butt like in in I know I said this before, but St. John Paul says that you have to convince man, and man being man and woman, that they're that they don't need to follow every sexual urge. Like, and and that's part of that goes into this whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:09

Right. And that's where going back, going back, going back, that idea of well, if my wife is not available, if my husband's not available, then I'm gonna go to pornography because who does that hurt? It's just me, you know, and I get my release. But that again is like it's it's anti-virtue because you don't have to act on every feeling that you have, you don't have to act on every urge that you have. You have to control yourself in other areas of your life, right? Like you you can come, you can get ideas like I need to get somewhere quicker. Man, I like that is one of my biggest temptations is speeding because I always feel like I'm late and I always want to be on time and get to where I'm going and show up when I said I'm gonna show up. I have to fight that urge to go faster and press my lead foot down on my on my pedal. I can control myself though.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:04

Yeah, so that and that reminds me of I don't know where it is in the catechism, but um it's the phrase that defines chastity and basically like it's towards the end of the definition of chastity says that that either man um learns to govern his passions or he gives into them and he ends up unhappy. And that's part of what you know, NFP, but not just NFP, like everything that we've been talking about up to this point, the whole church's view and foundation of sexual morality is so that we don't end up unhappy and and we've been given happiness and we believe that we've been given life through Jesus Christ, as life, death, and resurrection given by the church, and the church is not just some grandma who's telling you to not have sex the way you want to have it because it's icky and indecent and gross, but because there's actual freedom available to you if you do it this way under these parameters.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:57

Right. Like Jesus wants the church wants you to have a happy marriage, to have a blessed marriage, to have a holy marriage, um, but really a a happy, fulfilling, satisfying marriage. That's what the church wants. That's your vocation and it's your path to heaven. And while it's uh while it can be difficult, it also wants to be a blessing in your life. And so she has set these parameters, these boundaries for us to to thrive in. Um, and and sometimes it can be confusing because the world is telling us something different, but maybe that's the clue. Um, and I, you know, I'm really looking forward to continuing this conversation because we have so much more to say. So much more. And we we just kept going off in tangents and we had to edit this down so that it would fit in a normal podcast link. But um, we also got a lot of questions and suggestions about some of like even the more um extreme circumstances, or what about this situation, what about that. So I'd really I'm looking forward to doing a nut like a part two on the case.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:03

Yeah, we we definitely need a part two. A lot of the special circumstances and and like clinical medical things, and just there's so much more that the Catholic Church has to say, and there's wisdom and and fruitfulness there that I think I want to address.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:15

Yeah, so stay tuned. If you guys have questions about this, please reach out. Um, we would love to start a conversation with you. Um, if you liked this conversation, you feel like somebody else could benefit from it, please share it with somebody else. Um, but yeah, I really think I think this is a good start to um some more, some more good back and forth.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:35

And thank you guys for being here uh for one year of podcasting with us and um and bearing with us with with um you know this whole whole first year of trying to figure out how to do this. Uh thank you guys for listening. And like always, like I've been asking, like we've been asking for the last year, uh, go ahead and please rate, subscribe to the podcast, leave us reviews. Um, the more you help us out, the more it gets us out there to more people, uh, the more people that get to get to hear um the gospel um it you know in our own way, um trying to build up marriages and families. Um so uh like I said, thank you for being here, and we will see you at the next episode